"Happy holidays" is bullshit Christian normativity.

eagerSnake · Post Post #1550 (ISO) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:08 pm

I don't know where you're from but I'm from the US. Nobody has ethics.

Here it seems like people see it as if what they're doing is unethical it would be illegal. If it's legal, it's therefore ethical.

Shaziro · Post Post #1551 (ISO) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:13 pm

Eagersnake, I'm also from the US, people have ethics. You may not agree with some of them, that's fine, but they are there. Laws are made, among other reasons, to enforce particular ethics that we as a society find important enough to punish officially those who break them. You are shifting your argument from "Atheists don't have a reason to have ethics because they don't think a god will punish them, therefore if they don't get caught so what" to "Oh people in the US don't have ethics, unless it's against the law". That's dumb. Don't be dumb.

Garmr · Post Post #1552 (ISO) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:13 pm

In post 1550, eagerSnake wrote:I don't know where you're from but I'm from the US. Nobody has ethics.

Here it seems like people see it as if what they're doing is unethical it would be illegal. If it's legal, it's therefore ethical.

Religions not going to help that either.

Accountant · Post Post #1553 (ISO) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:31 pm

In post 1550, eagerSnake wrote:I don't know where you're from but I'm from the US. Nobody has ethics.

Here it seems like people see it as if what they're doing is unethical it would be illegal. If it's legal, it's therefore ethical.

This is a generalization

Accountant · Post Post #1554 (ISO) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:32 pm

In post 1547, eagerSnake wrote:What does a nonreligious person have to fear if they don't get caught?

suppose for a moment that God didn't exist

you have a chance to murder someone and you won't get caught

do you do it?

Accountant · Post Post #1555 (ISO) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:33 pm

another way of looking at it is like this, is God the only thing preventing you from commiting crimes or murdering people any time you feel like it and think you won't get caught?

Shaziro · Post Post #1556 (ISO) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:55 pm

Or, the more blatant example given by Penn of Penn and Teller. "I'm not religious, and because of that, I've killed exactly as many people as I want to. None. A big fat goose egg."

implosion · Post Post #1557 (ISO) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:38 pm

In post 1550, eagerSnake wrote:I don't know where you're from but I'm from the US. Nobody has ethics.

Here it seems like people see it as if what they're doing is unethical it would be illegal. If it's legal, it's therefore ethical.

Yeah, some people are assholes. Turns out some of them are irreligious. Some are religious as well.

I'm also in the US. I consider myself pretty ethical, and pretty much all of my friends are as well, at least as far as I can tell. They run the gamut from pretty religious to atheist. My ethics aren't motivated by fear; they're motivated by a number of things, but the reason that I don't randomly commit crimes or harm others in ways that would benefit me is not solely because of fear of reprimand; it's also because of empathy, and having a conscience, and so on.

Psyche · Post Post #1558 (ISO) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:59 pm

I don't kill people because I like people!

shaft.ed · Post Post #1559 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:47 am

I don't like people, but i hate killing, and really hate cleaning up

eagerSnake · Post Post #1560 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:51 am

So, they only have to fear the obvious, their own conscience. Cool. That's not enough for me. I don't trust 99.99999% of them to care.

Now, I'd like to clarify that this doesn't only go for nonreligious people but religious as well. You seem to think I trust religious people to do the right thing. I don't trust 99.99999% of them, either. Maybe I have a dark view of the world? But from my experiences, people simply can't be trusted, regardless of religious afilliations.

It's a real shame, but I could barely name one person who doesn't lie when they think it benefits them, and even then I wouldnt bet my money on it. Lying is immoral, no matter how white the lie is, can we agree?

You seem to have these very bright views of the world; expecting people to do the right thing because they simply don't want to answer to themselves. I'd like to say this is unrealistic, but maybe you've just had much, much, much (x100) better luck than I have when it comes to the people you've encountered, or you're on a different planet entirely.

It's not nonreligious people I have the problem with, you get it wrong. It's people in general. It's just that I know religious people have a set of rules they must follow or they have to answer to God and themselves. So if I can determine a person to be truly religious and completely committed to that, I have (very little) more incentive to trust them over someone who only has to answer to themselves, and their own set of rules. One persons actions only go through a single-check, whereas the others is being double-checked. I wouldn't give neither my full trust though, as I don't know what is truly going through their head, or when they might go off the deep end and decide they don't care about themselves/the future and just drop all their morals like they're out of style. Maybe they're going through a rough patch of life and just simply can't see any other way out other than going against their moral compass, or maybe they justify it to themselves as self-preservation. Whatever. I don't trust 'em. Any of 'em. Religious or not. I don't care if it's the Pope, I don't trust him either. You simply never know when someone will decide it's to their overall benefit to commit these "sins."

For the record, committing murder should be unforgivable IMO.

I think I agree with shafted here. I don't like people.

shaft.ed · Post Post #1561 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:56 am

In post 1560, eagerSnake wrote:So, they only have to fear the obvious, their own conscience. Cool. That's not enough for me. I don't trust 99.99999% of them to care.

welp our society is nearly 10% atheists. So far the heathens haven't risen up and killed everyone yet.

Accountant · Post Post #1562 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:58 am

In post 1560, eagerSnake wrote:But from my experiences, people simply can't be trusted

you think people can't be trusted not to commit murder? or?

eagerSnake · Post Post #1563 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:13 am

In post 1562, Accountant wrote:
In post 1560, eagerSnake wrote:But from my experiences, people simply can't be trusted
you think people can't be trusted not to commit murder? or?

People can't be trusted for anything.

Yeah, if I had a million USD in cash, I wouldn't trust anyone NOT to murder me for it. Of course I'm not going to walk around with that much money anyway.

But that's a hyperbole and on the very extreme end of the spectrum. I'm talking more about being lazy, lying, cheating, being lustful, stealing, discriminating, etc. You just can't trust people not to do these things. Religious or not.

eagerSnake · Post Post #1564 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:15 am

In post 1561, shaft.ed wrote:
In post 1560, eagerSnake wrote:So, they only have to fear the obvious, their own conscience. Cool. That's not enough for me. I don't trust 99.99999% of them to care.
welp our society is nearly 10% atheists. So far the heathens haven't risen up and killed everyone yet.

Obviously. What benefits is there to committing random murders? Likelihood of getting caught? Losses?

Annadog40 · Post Post #1565 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:15 am

So you build your own internet, house and grow all your own food?

eagerSnake · Post Post #1566 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:19 am

No, that's crazy!

Psyche · Post Post #1567 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:23 am

i think you're backtracking to this safer stance of broad cynicism but i don't really care

shaft.ed · Post Post #1568 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:24 am

In post 1567, Psyche wrote:i think you're backtracking to this safer stance of broad cynicism but i don't really care

as long as he hates everyone equally, I'm OK with it

eagerSnake · Post Post #1569 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:28 am

No you just misread me from the beginning. Like I said in the first posts "Note this does not apply to all atheists and all religious people, as people are not as simple as black & white. Most religious people are fakes, and are more of a Sunday fan, and the rest of the week they forget about it. And some atheists feel conviction to do the right things all the time to justify not needing a religion."

I don't have to backtrack, I just have to explain more because people commonly misinterpret.

Annadog40 · Post Post #1570 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:30 am

In post 1566, eagerSnake wrote:No, that's crazy!

So you trust people.

eagerSnake · Post Post #1571 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:33 am

In post 1570, Annadog40 wrote:
In post 1566, eagerSnake wrote:No, that's crazy!
So you trust people.

No. I dont. I don't have to trust someone to use their Internet or their house or their food.

Annadog40 · Post Post #1572 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:34 am

But you have to trust that people will run the internet and make the food and it won't be poisoned. And you have to trust the people who build your house.

eagerSnake · Post Post #1573 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:38 am

Well if they poison me oh well I guess. As far as house goes they have insurance and Lawyers for stuff like that. As far add the Internet goes what's the worst they could do? Steal my ID and shit? Who cares

Garmr · Post Post #1574 (ISO) » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:38 am

In post 1560, eagerSnake wrote:
It's not nonreligious people I have the problem with, you get it wrong. It's people in general. It's just that I know religious people have a set of rules they must follow or they have to answer to God and themselves. So if I can determine a person to be truly religious and completely committed to that, I have (very little) more incentive to trust them over someone who only has to answer to themselves, and their own set of rules.

What's truly religious lol. In your bible I can find multiple verses that allow me to find a reason to kill someone. You just cherry pick them out.

You know after death there's nothing in a atheist eyes. So they have to make the best of life and you know what one can argue atheist have a higher appreciation of life because of that.

Also that says a lot of about religious people then. You could just say they fear god so they don't do bad things out fear instead of being moral people like atheist who do the right thing out of their own heart.

Also you maybe want to chew on this.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2 ... fbf369670e