The Resistance (O3P1 - Replacement Needed)

[Something_Smart]

/in

[Something_Smart]

so first time playing, but I assume this is just like mafia in the tells it uses. Lying people are lying people.

Me too, but I've read through a couple games, and I've found that applying mafia tells does not work well at all. (Or I suck at it. Or both.) This game is supposed to be based around townhunting, and IMO it works a lot better.
Why? Probably because this game provides limited information in the place of flips, and that information is centered around our townreads (who passes/fails missions) rather than our scumreads (the flips of the players we lynch), as in a normal mafia game. (I actually toyed with the idea of trying to send as many spies as possible on mission 1 or 2 to see what they would do, but that seemed risky and unlikely to be worthwhile.)

Also is the fact that spies are not exactly "lying" per se; they want who they want on the team, and they're usually straightforward about it.

[Something_Smart]

How did you get a scumread from that?

[Something_Smart]

Told you it's not too different from mafia.

I still disagree. For one thing, you'll never find out conclusively if this read is right.

First sentence is fine, you'd make that as town or as scum.

Not sure why you aren't applying this logic to the other sentences, but ok.

Second has the keyword "supposed", where you steer away from applying the theory to the game at hand, and in stead speak about the easy hypothetical.

Umm...no. From what I've seen of this game, you are supposed to townhunt; that's the way the game is designed. People

can

try to scumhunt. It won't work very well. I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying here.

This you'd unconciously do easier as scum, where you, by choice or not, want to look which way the wind blows first.

Because you clearly know my town and scum play so well.

Third sentence is an iffy tell, some people just like the word "probably". Otherwise a pretty null sentence, just theory.

I do like the word "probably", and other similar qualifying words. I can provide evidence if you want.

Conclusion has the keyword "usually", which has the same issue as the 2nd sentence, where the post is made to discuss a hypothetical in stead of playing the game at hand.

That's just weak. Are you expecting me to have a solid knowledge of common spy meta when I have never even played this game before?

Hence your post gets a very theory heavy

True

and indirect feel,

Arguable. I think a better description is "non-forceful".

where you seem to be passive

Again arguable. I think a better description is "unassertive".

and waiting for someone else to do something.

True again. Nobody had even discussed who we're sending on the mission.

As you'd do when you're scum.

Because you clearly know my town and scum play so well.

Won't say that's that, but for 2 pages in, I'd rather not have you on my team.

If we're going to pick apart language, why'd you say

your

team? Your team won't come around for a while, and I'd think you'd not want me on

any

team.

So basically, you don't like that I'm using non-forceful language and not speaking in absolutes. It is probably true ( ) that scum do that more often than town, but that's a gross generalization and you're applying it to me without knowledge of my playstyle. I'm an unassuming person and I tend to devalue my own opinion unless I am very confident, and I use that type of language all the time, as both alignments (and I can provide plenty of evidence for this if it comes to that).

[Something_Smart]

OK, fair enough. I didn't have to do that. But the point is that you're attacking me because of my word choice, without knowing anything about me as a player. Do you acknowledge that?

I'm also interested in where you saw me argue that because your arguments were weak I must be town.

[Something_Smart]

Hi all!

I get to pick first!

Why should I pick you?
Who would you rather not see me pick?

You should pick me because I'm Resistance and because my motivations should be obvious from my posts (soon, if they aren't already).
I haven't seen anyone say something towny, though I have a very slight scumlean on N for 25 (though that could just be be personality) and a decent scumread on mykonian for this:

And all that mess really does is that you disagree with my arguments and that I put it too strongly, so you must be town. Of course it's putting it strongly. It's page 2. But the fact that after a very noncommittal theory post you manage to make a very impressive mess about how I shouldn't be calling you scum already does rather send me into a tunnel. I don't like it a bit.

which misrepresents my play and doesn't make any sense.

[Something_Smart]

It feels like there is a lot of distancing going on here.

What makes you think this?

At the moment the team I most support is Radja/Killthestory/Something_Smart.

[Something_Smart]

Or Radja/Ircher/Something_Smart.

[Something_Smart]

Mykonian can you answer my questions?

OK, fair enough. I didn't have to do that. But the point is that you're attacking me because of my word choice, without knowing anything about me as a player. Do you acknowledge that?

I'm also interested in where you saw me argue that because your arguments were weak I must be town.

[Something_Smart]

People I feel good about: Something_Smart, Radja, Ircher, randomidget

People I feel not so good about: mykonian, Elekitu, N

People I'm not sure about: Faalcon, Killthestory, Klick

[Something_Smart]

Patience, young Padawan.

Do you have thoughts on who you would/wouldn't want on a mission?

[Something_Smart]

How do you know why Radja picked me?

[Something_Smart]

I believe Radja is town. Not as sure on KTS, but I think I'll accept it anyway. (Not positive yet, though.)

[Something_Smart]

Why?

[Something_Smart]

So... he should pick the "totally clean" (i.e. null or close to null) players rather than the ones he townreads?

*scratches head*

[Something_Smart]

Rejecting that.

Why

the quick send

didn't you put any spies on it? Weren't you wondering why people wanted to rush earlier?

FTFY

Elekitu, how do you know how strong my opinions are?

[Something_Smart]

I picked one, but I agree with what Radja said about not discussing our votes. You should vote independently of how you think I will vote.

[Something_Smart]

I think we should reject this team.

Why?

[Something_Smart]

Wow.

That has to have been an all-town team.

[Something_Smart]

Because there's no way that three spies all reject a team containing their fourth partner, especially when there would have been no obvious weak link on this team.

[Something_Smart]

KTS I feel good about you

why don't you feel good about me?

[Something_Smart]

It's a forgeone conclusion that Radja was going to accept.
Faalcon, Killthestory, randomidget and I never said whether we would accept. Ircher only said he would reject near the end of the voting period.

I don't think anybody could have predicted this extreme split when they voted. I sure didn't. (I suspected it might be rejected, but not by that much.)

[Something_Smart]

It's a forgeone conclusion that Radja was going to accept.
Faalcon, Killthestory, randomidget and I never said whether we would accept. Ircher only said he would reject near the end of the voting period.

I don't think anybody could have predicted this extreme split when they voted. I sure didn't. (I suspected it might be rejected, but not by that much.)

You listed six names. The remaining four are mykonian, Elekitu, N and myself, all of which expressly didn't approve of the team. I can't answer for anyone else, but I'm not at all surprised that the vote was this lopsided when a 6-4 pass was the only thing saving the team.

Yeah but scum would not get in trouble for accepting after a 5-5 or 4-6 rejection, I don't think.

Anyway, two questions.
1) Who do think the spy was/spies were on the proposed team?
2) What are your reads on the other players who were openly against it (mykonian, Elekitu, N)?

[Something_Smart]

I have a pet theory that involves a you/Radja/KTS team deciding to put up three Spies, but it's not weighing heavily in my thoughts.

Given your reads, I should think this possibility might occur to you.

A team like that can't work without crumbs. Did you see any crumbs that might have been used to organize something like that?

[Something_Smart]

@Klick: that is an interesting thought, but it doesn't really hold upon closer inspection. If I were smart enough to crumb something like that (and I probably would be), I wouldn't crumb both "send as many spies as possible" AND "send Radja/SS/KTS". Way too dangerous if that gets found after the mission fails. In any event, sending three spies can be problematic if you get two or three fails, so we'd also need to have crumbed who would pass and who would fail.

I mean, thinking it through I may very well be wrong about S_S, because unless after a couple days of thinking after the first time I asked that question Radja did come up with a proper answer, I think this is a buddying attempt on a townie that's getting bullied, picking up souls. It looks like a radja scum-S_S town interaction moreso than 2 scum wifoming (I think if I had been Radja I'd have let that ship sink then, not let S_S drag me with him).

This is interesting, because the reason I originally townread Radja was for correctly pegging me as town, but now that I think about it, he might have picked the most controversial players, intending to fail the message and blame it on them. (I guess he didn't anticipate such a negative reaction.)

@Faalcon: what makes you think that?

[Something_Smart]

Faalcon, a lot of the things you said in that post were just... wrong.

Radja asked not to be rushed; it was his decision to send the team. The fact that he chose to send it when he did is not scummy, as Klick and Faalcon have suggested. Even if it were hypocritical (it's not), hypocrisy is a towntell.

Ircher's play has been by no means the "perfect VT first phase" and I have really no clue about where that came from.

Aaaaand there's a lot of wrong stuff about me.
First of all, "OMGUS is never good" is a baldfaced lie. Calculated OMGUS has its merits, especially in this game where spies are trying to get spies on the team and that means getting Resistance members off the team, and they do that by calling those Resistance members scum. My townread on Radja came from the same line of reasoning. (Also, if you'll notice, I didn't call mykonian scum when he called me scum; I only called him scum later, after he misrepped me.)

I don't think you know what buddying is, either. What you are describing can best be called "forming a block", which is something both town and scum do (but town does more).

You're attacking my page 6 play for equating "there is not exactly one scum" to "there is all town", which I did do. That's because the possibility that Radja and KTS are BOTH scum is very remote. If you (like me) came to the conclusion that there is not exactly 1 scum on the team, Occam's razor suggests that it being all town is far more likely than scum pulling some risky WIFOM gambit and putting multiple partners on the team. (Also, scum probably still would have passed a 2-scum team.)

Overall, there's no substance to your scumread on me; it's all buzzwords and misapplied tells. I don't necessarily think you're scum for it, but you need to seriously reconsider some things or I will probably not be accepting your team. (Even if you reconsider and come to the same conclusions, that would still make me feel better.)

[Something_Smart]

What do you dislike so much about 104 and 112?
104 is me misunderstanding mykonian. Mykonian was saying that Radja shouldn't have picked me, and I thought it meant that given his reads (including a townread on me) and the gamestate, he shouldn't have picked me. But really what it meant was that he shouldn't have had that townread on me in the first place, and I'm not sure why mykonian didn't say that.

112 is me half trolling and half expressing incredulity that anyone could actually reject a team for that reason alone. (A feeling later elaborated on in 146.)

BTW, I townread Radja because I know that scum have to make up inaccurate reads to win, and I knew that I was a prime target for a faked scumread, so I figured that Radja was genuinely seeing my towny play.
I still see that as the more likely possibility; however, I hadn't thought about it from the perspective of Radja-scum trying to add a scapegoat for his mission's failure.

And also BTW, it's wrong to say that Radja didn't choose the team just because he went with my suggestion. He chose it. He just happened to agree with me.

I want to stop responding to every point of every post but at the same time people are saying things that are so wrong they need to be corrected.

[Something_Smart]

I like Faalcon's reads.

I'll try to actually work on this Friday or Sunday.

What do you think of his read on me?

[Something_Smart]

I'm going through a major overhaul of my reads right now.
I may actually accept this.

[Something_Smart]

I do see how but I like quote pyramids too!

[Something_Smart]

four people

uh

no

same people + yourself.
gg.

I will not accept this.

same people + mykonian.

[Something_Smart]

TIME FOR A WALLPOST WHERE I ATTEMPT TO SOLVE THE GAME AND HOPEFULLY DON'T FAIL EPICALLY

So, first of all, I think we are mostly in agreement that the mission that passed was all-town. I believe that any spy on that mission, where none of the members were very deeply discussed, would have failed it.

That's three town. Looking at things from an objective perspective, that means there are three more town.

Now, regardless of what anyone else says, the slam failure of Radja's mission indicates to me that there was not exactly one spy on it. Suppose there were no spies on it. That would leave a spy team of:

<Ircher, randomidget, mykonian, N>

which makes no sense given the enormous amount of interaction between Ircher, mykonian and N early game.

Now suppose there were two spies on it. (Something I now believe.) Of course from my perspective those two spies are Radja and Killthestory, but even assuming they weren't, this leaves two spies and two town in the same group. Now, look at the interactions between me and Killthestory following the first mission proposal. I think they are pretty obviously not partner-partner interactions. This leaves Radja as confirmed scum in this scenario.

Now that we are in the perspective of Radja as scum, let's look at his reads.

Townpool: Something Smart, KilltheStory, Elekitu, N,

Middle pool: Klick, Faalcon, randomidget

Scumpool: mykonian, Ircher

Radja has three spy partners that he has to hide in these reads. As stated before, I believe Klick and Faalcon to be town. Therefore, since it's very logical that he would put one buddy in his null pool ("middle pool"), randomidget is probably scum. He also expressed distaste with a team containing mykonian or Ircher, as opposed to just passively scumreading them (and he hasn't really pushed them as scum at all), which suggests even more strongly that mission 1 was all town and that these players are also both town. (This is all backed up by my individual reads, giving me more confidence.)

In Radja's townpool are four players, one of whom (Elekitu) has already been presumed town. Of the other three, I think objectively that considering a Radja/Killthestory/Something_Smart spy team is ridiculous, leaving N as spy.

The last part I can't really do objectively, but I can point to how Killthestory defended N early on as well as how Radja suggested Killthestory add himself to the successful mission. However, I'm okay with not being picked for this reason.

So I know this depends on a crap-ton of assumptions, but this is the scenario I find most likely. (And if anybody wants to challenge any of my assumptions and has a logical reason as to why, go ahead.)

Therefore, I support the mission with the addition of Ircher or mykonian (or myself, though I don't expect that nor require it for my strategy to be successful).

[Something_Smart]

Who are you thinking of sending?

[Something_Smart]

Heya! Sorry if I've been absent from the debate these past few days (don't worry, I'm still lurking)
I'm actually having a hard time trying to figure out who is scum and who isn't. KTS is definitely a spy and Faalcon/Klick are town, but I'm still not sure whether S_S is a town who just found most of the spies, or a scum
I'd be ok with using the same team as previously but adding Ircher or N, who are the most likely to be town for me

I should be regarded as a town leader.

Ircher is okay, but N is a spy.

[Something_Smart]

It makes perfect sense.

Will you stop dragging out the game and propose a team?

[Something_Smart]

That submission is a scumclaim.

[Something_Smart]

that logic is so twisted you might even believe it yourself. Timescale on it is bonkers.

I think the logic is more along the lines, of, N is a spy and thus this mission passing will advance KTS's wincon, but N being confirmed spy is not a big deal as he's already widely scumread.

[Something_Smart]

I meant N. Maybe he's not as widely scumread as I thought, but the point still stands.

[Something_Smart]

He's desperate.

[Something_Smart]

Maybe not, but this is an all-town team and will likely be rejected by all four spies.

[Something_Smart]

is this game dead?

also, happy birthday JDGA

[Something_Smart]

okay so Ircher is a spy.

[Something_Smart]

Did anybody else see what I saw about Ircher?

[Something_Smart]

Did anybody else see what I saw about Ircher?

[Something_Smart]

Okay. Sorry if I lose the game for town by doing this, but if Ircher is town then he messed up seriously.

Ircher crumbed Resistance Leader, in this post:

I hope our first operation doesn't end in fai

l

u

r

e! An early win is crucial for us as the game gets harder as we go on.

by italicizing the letters R and L.

He then proceeded to make definitive statements on enough players' alignments to suggest that, if he were Resistance Leader, the spies were Radja, Killthestory, randomidget, and N. Note that he never made a pronouncement on randomidget's alignment; that was PoE based on his comments about other players.

Which all made sense and was consistent with the votes, play, and actions.

Until this mission.

Meaning Ircher's been yanking my chain all along.

So he is never going on another mission.

That said, I think he might have named some of his real partners. The Radja/Killthestory/N connection is definitely there (although I am very confused about why Radja and N both rejected a team with a spy on it).

But in any event, I'm going to have to start trying this game rather than sitting back, thinking I know all the scum, and trying to take the bullet for Ircher.

[Something_Smart]

well then, S-S sure is trying to convince me he's scum.

how can you even think I'm scum after that.

[Something_Smart]

If someone else needs to know, I can throw a post at that. Otherwise I don't really feel I need to explain you why you are scummy.

So do you think Ircher and I are scum together, and I caught my buddy's Resistance Leader crumb and based my entire play around it? (including accepting a team that I initially would have rejected, and for which I could have easily justified a rejection)

Or do you think Ircher is somehow town who crumbed the incorrect scumteam?

[Something_Smart]

why on earth did you crumb it then

[Something_Smart]

and stop crumbing it

[Something_Smart]

"cool strat" is a gross misrepresentation. I think "way to avoid losing" is more appropriate.

And what about it makes you feel that way?

[Something_Smart]

oh you're talking about Ircher.

I mean, Ircher was confirmed scum since the moment that mission failed. But I do agree that his reaction wasn't good.

[Something_Smart]

what?

if you think my interaction with Ircher was scum-scum, can you explain why?

[Something_Smart]

Ircher, stop crumbing.

Rejecting this.

[Something_Smart]

Please tell me that doesn't default to an acceptance.

[Something_Smart]

Some Mish Mash games just sorta fall apart, and I've always wondered why that happens.

I guess it's because some people stop posting, and then others stop posting, and then even the ones who still want to post don't have anything to say, and then eventually everyone just forgets about it...

[Something_Smart]

I don't mind, at least it's something to talk about

Mafia already suffers from the issue of some people taking it more seriously than other people, and I can imagine a Mish Mash game that has Mafia-like qualities would only make that problem worse.

[Something_Smart]

You and I (hopefully) voted. Random presumably voted. Based on the comments after random proposed the team, I'd guess that Ircher and Radja also voted.

So... Faalcon and/or KTS, perhaps? I can't exactly gauge the interest level of a person who hasn't posted in 6 days.

[Something_Smart]

rip.

I was town btw.

[Something_Smart]

I think all spies are within <Radja, KTS, Ircher, random, N>. I have a guess for RL but I'll save it until I know the game is abandoned.

[Something_Smart]

Given you outed your role, there's basically no recourse other than to abandon it, really, but it was probably going to happen anyway.

Spoiler: Roles

Leader:

Radja

Spies:

Ircher, randomidget, mykonian, N

If enough players are up for trying again, could potentially run it.

Lol I would have said that as a spy too, ftr

BTW my guess for RL was Faalcon with that god team; I guess Faalcon deserves kudos for that.

I was right about Ircher, random and N all being shady. I was also right about the weird Radja-KTS dynamic.

If we play it again, we should do it without the leader. It seems like it would be very hard to actually get anything done as leader without making it obvious to the spies (because your reads are all right).