Scummies Ideas, Suggestions and Comments Thread

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Post Post #800 (ISO) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:28 pm

Post by zMuffinMan »

tbh the term "teamwork" gets thrown around far too loosely by the people arguing against the removal of the best town award
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Post Post #801 (ISO) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:20 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 799, chamber wrote:
In post 796, xRECKONERx wrote:Nacho, do you feel ganged up on and bullied?


You absolutely were and don't pretend for a second that you don't know it. I don't think you were being particularly abusive or abrasive relative to how bad you can be when you really mean it, but you were berating people over expressing their opinion. I know nacho and fferlyt can take it, it doesn't mean they should have to.

Completely incorrect, you're way off base and I'm actually kinda shocked considering how smart I actually think you are?

Nacho, at least, there was no animosity or bullying. Like, not even in a subjective manner from someone who hates my guts. ffery I could see you taking that way, but I don't really see you chastizing her for coming in here and lying about the SSC's actions in a public forum, so what did you expect me to do? I laid out the facts, maybe in a stern manner, but that was pretty much the most appropriate response after what she said.

And yeah, people coming in here and going NO I DON'T LIKE IT without actually engaging in the process is starting to get old, so my responses are getting less in depth and personal and are slowly becoming RTFT.
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Post Post #802 (ISO) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:55 pm

Post by fferyllt »

I'm more than a little horrified that you think I would intentionally lie about something, rather than there being some kind of horrible disconnect or misunderstanding. But, it does help put your and UT's posts into context, and I've been struggling, especially with UT's post.


This thread isn't the place to try to sort through it, and I'm very, very sorry that I even mentioned 2014. My reason for mentioning it was that I wanted you guys to know that I was willing to do more than just ask you reconsider the award - I was willing to help, and I wanted to assure you that it wouldn't be a repeat of 2014. And, as I said, I didn't want you to just dismiss my opinion out of hand because "lol flake".

I found out that I'd been removed the first week I was home after 6 months away taking care of my dad. I looked for the judging threads in my ego search and couldn't find them. I assumed it was some kind of glitch, because you guys hadn't told me you were removing me. Or maybe you did tell me, in a thread that I didn't see? I asked chamber if there was an access problem when I couldn't find the threads or the forum.

He told me what he knew, and I felt terrible about it.

If you say I should have known why I didn't have access, I'll agree with you. Some other time with less hell going on in my life, I wouldn't have needed to figure it out because it never would have happened. I feel very strongly about finishing things that I commit to, and it bothered me a lot that I let the judging slip like that.

Anyway, very sincere apology, UT. I have a ton of respect for you and I felt terrible reading your post. I almost PMed you rather than posting the earlier apology here, but the offense was public and I wanted the apology to be public as well.
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Post Post #803 (ISO) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:33 pm

Post by wgeurts »

Isn't the argument for the removal that it only awards one aspect of play which can't be objectively judged properly which is better?
If so then I disagree with that.

To be a good team as either alignment (including scum) you need a lot more than just "teamwork". If the players in a faction all work together well and everything is all rainbows and bunnies that doesn't mean they will be successful at anything. Just like a football team can work well together, that isn't all that's needed; other qualities are also needed.
For instance with a scum team manipulative skills, seeming convincing , etc. are all things a good scum team need. If they have none of these but only "good teamwork" they will fail miserably at a a game.

Now scum teams can already be nominated as a whole but splitting that reward up again really doesn't harm anyone. Sometimes you have a group of people who shine, other scenarios involve one member carrying a whole team. These seperate situations work best with seperate rewards.

Now for town. Town if they don't know how to push reads, form them in the first place and all that stuff will fail miserably just like scum will if they only have "teamwork". Town cohesion isn't the only thing a good town displays; they need all the other aspects a good individual town player needs to have.

Those rewards weren't just awarding one aspect of play. Instead they were awarding all of them, except the focus is on the whole faction instead of the individual.

And in those scenarios one or two carry the whole faction? Well, just rank them below other games where there were significantly less useless players.

Typed this up on my phone so if formatting is awful and what not I apologize.
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Post Post #804 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:43 am

Post by Firebringer »

In post 800, zMuffinMan wrote:tbh the term "teamwork" gets thrown around far too loosely by the people arguing against the removal of the best town award

Well, just like you can't win a football game being the only player on a team. Town can't play together without more than 1 and them working in some relationship in order to accomplish their own win condition, which is aligned with each other.

Unless magically that 1 player has enough votes to cause lynches without any assistance, in that scenario I would consider that game barely even mafia.
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Post Post #805 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:55 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

voting the same player is the most basic thing in the game that i don't even think it qualifies as teamwork, or if it does, then almost every single player displays the same amazing ability every single game, so the entire site deserves a scummy
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Post Post #806 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:04 am

Post by wgeurts »

The reward isn't only about teamwork though.
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Post Post #807 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:17 am

Post by Firebringer »

In post 805, zMuffinMan wrote:voting the same player is the most basic thing in the game that i don't even think it qualifies as teamwork, or if it does, then almost every single player displays the same amazing ability every single game, so the entire site deserves a scummy

If we can't agree that voting a player together in unison is teamwork than we disagree fundamentally on this topic.

The game is about persuasion and deception. Players are trying to persuade others they are town and sort out the players who are only pretending to be town. So when you sort someone as town as town it works best if the two of you work together than against each other in some fashion. Mostly through votes.

Second point about every player has this ability. Of course. Teamwork isn't some abstract thing that is hard for people to manage. People work together as a team all the time, with varying results. Its always present in games, it doesn't mean they do it with the most success.

If you need an example of another thing, for instance "Most Cunning Manipulator". Everyone has some level of ability to manipulate people, correct? This isn't some phenomena that is rare in games. Its essentially vital for scum. Does that mean every player manipulates to the same degree or at the same level? No.

Their are better Town teams than others.
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Post Post #808 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:44 am

Post by SleepyKrew »

is persuasion teamwork
To be clear: quack
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Post Post #809 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:45 am

Post by Firebringer »

In post 808, SleepyKrew wrote:is persuasion teamwork

Yes.
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Post Post #810 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:17 am

Post by Psyche »

is not trolling teamwork
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Post Post #811 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:19 am

Post by Davsto »

In post 803, wgeurts wrote:Isn't the argument for the removal that it only awards one aspect of play which can't be objectively judged properly which is better?
If so then I disagree with that.

To be a good team as either alignment (including scum) you need a lot more than just "teamwork". If the players in a faction all work together well and everything is all rainbows and bunnies that doesn't mean they will be successful at anything. Just like a football team can work well together, that isn't all that's needed; other qualities are also needed.
For instance with a scum team manipulative skills, seeming convincing , etc. are all things a good scum team need. If they have none of these but only "good teamwork" they will fail miserably at a a game.

Now scum teams can already be nominated as a whole but splitting that reward up again really doesn't harm anyone. Sometimes you have a group of people who shine, other scenarios involve one member carrying a whole team. These seperate situations work best with seperate rewards.

Now for town. Town if they don't know how to push reads, form them in the first place and all that stuff will fail miserably just like scum will if they only have "teamwork". Town cohesion isn't the only thing a good town displays; they need all the other aspects a good individual town player needs to have.

Those rewards weren't just awarding one aspect of play. Instead they were awarding all of them, except the focus is on the whole faction instead of the individual.

And in those scenarios one or two carry the whole faction? Well, just rank them below other games where there were significantly less useless players.

Typed this up on my phone so if formatting is awful and what not I apologize.

They're not saying that teamwork is the only thing necessary

but

If the town doesn't work together, one can't really argue that they should get a team award

Thus, the category is 90% judging on whether they worked together or not.
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Post Post #812 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:28 am

Post by wgeurts »

If they worked together wonderfully but failed at finding scum they also won't win. It's just one of the many aspects that needs to be taken into consideration. Teamwork shouldn't be the main aspect.
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Post Post #813 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:44 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 812, wgeurts wrote:Teamwork shouldn't be the main aspect.

This is part of the reason we're removing the award.

There's no reason to reward one specific aspect of what makes town play good. If we're going to have an award for teamwork, should we also have an award for every other avenue of town play that constitutes good play?
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Post Post #814 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:52 am

Post by Davsto »

In post 812, wgeurts wrote:If they worked together wonderfully but failed at finding scum they also won't win. It's just one of the many aspects that needs to be taken into consideration. Teamwork shouldn't be the main aspect.

But, by pure nature of being a town
team
award, teamwork becomes the main aspect. Simple as that.

That's like saying that manipulating town shouldn't be the main aspect of the Don Corleone award.
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Post Post #815 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:58 pm

Post by wgeurts »

I'm saying it isn't only an award about teamwork. Effectively its the same as the regular best town award except instead of focusing on an individual it's focused on a whole group. Teamwork doesn't win games, it's a mixture of things that makes a good town team.

If it's being judged as "which team worked best together" the award isn't being judged correctly.
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Post Post #816 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:00 pm

Post by wgeurts »

Judging teams doesn't mean you should tunnel vision onto teamwork as that isn't the main thing. You look at their achievements, how they got there, how much the mafia put up a fight and how well the town saw through their lies. Basically everything that's judged for the individual town award.
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Post Post #817 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:14 pm

Post by Davsto »

In post 816, wgeurts wrote:Judging teams doesn't mean you should tunnel vision onto teamwork as that isn't the main thing. You look at their achievements, how they got there, how much the mafia put up a fight and how well the town saw through their lies. Basically everything that's judged for the individual town award.

Towns consist of, in a Mini, about 10 players. Say 5 townies do this, while the other 5 don't. Is this town worthy of the award? I mean, they did all of the other things, but they didn't really work together and half of them just sat around doing nothing.

There is a problem with judging a team award for the town which is, by design, detached. It's just not going to work properly.

Keep in mind, the judging committee knows a lot more about you than how games are judged for the Scummies too. You're looking upon them from the outside and going "yeh but if you do it like this it should work, right?" Those guys have been in there and done it and judged the award previously and have now decided, with their experience, that this award shouldn't stay.
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Post Post #818 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:19 pm

Post by wgeurts »

Let's then say you have a game where 7 did this, then that team wins instead of the 5 one. The former then wins. It's the best town team so ones filled with lurkers shouldn't win. I'm saying that that the current reason given for removing it doesn't add up.
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Post Post #819 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:22 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 818, wgeurts wrote:Let's then say you have a game where 7 did this, then that team wins instead of the 5 one. The former then wins. It's the best town team so ones filled with lurkers shouldn't win. I'm saying that that the current reason given for removing it doesn't add up.

Speaking of adding up, what you're suggesting is essentially a numbers game variant of selecting the winner.
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Post Post #820 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:26 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

How should the town of 7 vs the town of 5 be perceived? Should the town of 5 who had stronger individual performances or overcame more obstacles be viewed as better than the town of 7 where it was more of an easy route to the end? What about games with uneven numbers? What about games where night actions decided it versus games where night actions didn't? What about games where it's a large instead of a mini? Should larges win over minis because towns are BIGGER and therefore bigger numbers are more impressive? Should a game with hardcore lurkers but the rest of the town did super well be considered differently than a game where there were no lurkers at all but the town as a whole wasn't quite as cohesive? If so, which one should be viewed in a better light?

The more people you introduce for an award, the more variables that come into play, and the harder it is to judge.
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Post Post #821 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:27 pm

Post by wgeurts »

Not really, if there are three teams which are nominated and one is plagued with lurkers and a few good players that one shouldn't win is what I'm saying. Counting how many played well and deciding a winner like that is a silly idea. However games that have more players playing well should have a higher chance of winning, that seems logical.

Edit: this was aimed at the post before your next one
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Post Post #822 (ISO) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:28 pm

Post by wgeurts »

If the team of 5 played better I would say have them win. However only if there aren't any other games where more players played at the same or higher level as that game.

And let's say we have a micro and a large. Then I guess it becomes difficult to judge.
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Post Post #823 (ISO) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:56 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

In post 816, wgeurts wrote:Judging teams doesn't mean you should tunnel vision onto teamwork as that isn't the main thing. You look at their achievements, how they got there, how much the mafia put up a fight and how well the town saw through their lies. Basically everything that's judged for the individual town award.

i think that's the entire point, isn't it?

people arguing to bring back the award are suggesting teamwork is a big thing and should be encouraged, etc etc

when in reality "teamwork" as most people are defining it happens in almost every... single... game... the defining difference between a town who won and a town who lost a game usually isn't teamwork so much as whether the town had correct reads. and the town having correct reads usually doesn't require teamwork so much as vocal/charismatic people being correct, and THIS seems to be a large part of why the award was removed; because it's very rare for even half the town to contribute to a win in some meaningful way
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Post Post #824 (ISO) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:13 am

Post by MattP »

Something I don't get honestly is using "The past few years noone has qualified for this award" as reason to remove it. Like, then an award can exist but just not be given every year. That's like commonplace for a lot of awards. It makes it even more meaningful when it is given.

I read most of this but not everything so maybe I missed some rebuttal to this so YOLO but I'm just gonna say it
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