Mechanics (Gold and Phase System)

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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Fri May 18, 2012 10:18 am

Post by quadz08 »

Because they sell so many swords, crossbows, and wizard's staves in modern-day America. >_>
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Fri May 18, 2012 10:28 am

Post by inspiratieloos »

What Bub proposes makes it very simple to determine wages, then determining product prices from that isn't really a problem.
In post 41, inspiratieloos wrote:Suppose we say the basic needs of a middle class family cost about 1 gold/day and work from there?
A swordsmith that would earn about 500 gold a year in profits, say he has 2 apprentices that each earn 200 gold/year and they make 100 high quality swords, 50% of the cost is in materials and he also needs money for upkeep in his smithy which is around 1000 gold. A high quality sword would cost about 40 gold. A foundry might make a few thousand average swords in a year bringing the price down to maybe 1/10th of that.
A sword made by the best smith in the city and/or enchanted by a mage might cost 100-200 gold.

Multiply everything by 65.
Average (foundry) sword -> ~250 gold
High quality sword -> ~2500 gold
Best (mundane) sword money can buy -> ~10,000 gold

Iirc from a documentary a few years ago a high quality katana made by one of the few traditional Japanese swordsmiths left cost around €15,000. Considering the difference in supply/demand I'd say 2500 gold is a decent price.
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Fri May 18, 2012 10:42 am

Post by Bub Bidderskins »

Yeah, we shouldn't compare how much a sword costs today with how much it'll cost in Amstaad. A better product to compare it with would be the cost of a gun today. Also, the cost of a full suit of armour during the middle ages was comparable to the cost of a car today. So around 20,000 for a good set of armour, but that's a
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Fri May 18, 2012 10:49 am

Post by quadz08 »

^

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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2012 8:20 am

Post by Bub Bidderskins »

Um, so is the gold/phase system set? Next we can work on the combat system. After we do that, then we can make up a list of all the weapons/armours/items in the game. Then the magic system and magic items. After that, we just need a story and we're good to go.
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2012 5:21 pm

Post by T-Bone »

Just skimmed the thread.

Phases are NOT supposed to represent a fixed length of time. They are supposed to represent MAJOR life changing events. It's possible a 70 character only had 2 life changing events. He got his dream job he got married. It's possible for a 16 year old to have 8 life chaning events. He was enslaved. His villiage was ransacked by barbarians. He tried and failed to take care of his dying mother. He gets sent to military school. He deserts the military. He learns his sister was raped and gets revenge. So on and so forth.
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2012 5:33 pm

Post by DeathNote »

I will set what we have established and pick what we should work on next. Deadline will be about a week
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2012 7:10 pm

Post by Kcdaspot »

In post 77, Bub Bidderskins wrote:Yeah, we shouldn't compare how much a sword costs today with how much it'll cost in Amstaad. A better product to compare it with would be the cost of a gun today. Also, the cost of a full suit of armour during the middle ages was comparable to the cost of a car today. So around 20,000 for a good set of armour, but that's a
good
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full
set of armour. An old, rusty set would cost the same as an old, rusty car. Light armour such as leather or fur would cost much less, maybe as much as a golf cart.

This doesn't and shouldn't mean we are basing the gold system on or loosely around the USD.
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2012 7:11 pm

Post by Kcdaspot »

Can we like NOT go for total realism? I mean FFS we got magic. MAGIC.
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2012 7:39 pm

Post by inspiratieloos »

Don't like something, propose an alternative. But what's the problem with basing gold value on something (close to) what most people are familiar with?
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2012 8:16 pm

Post by Kcdaspot »

Its called "fantasy" for a reason.

I think we should just focus on what pays what and then base what you can get around that.

This should be more income based for accessiblity purposes especially if you aren't familiar with fate at all.

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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2012 8:19 pm

Post by Kcdaspot »

Gold system should tie into the quest system..blah blah

There should also be like some good gold sinks to counteract yadda yadda

And you should allow people to like grind pelts and stuff like that on the outskirts of the city rabble rabble
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Mon May 21, 2012 1:55 am

Post by CooLDoG »

In post 86, Kcdaspot wrote:Gold system should tie into the quest system..blah blah

There should also be like some good gold sinks to counteract yadda yadda

And you should allow people to like grind pelts and stuff like that on the outskirts of the city rabble rabble

... there is no grinding in this game. This is not a computer game! Basing the gold system off of what an Item costs is the easiest way.

@tbone, well, everybody would be a two year old baby with 8 phases. It just doesn't seem to work for balance reasons.
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Mon May 21, 2012 2:25 am

Post by Bub Bidderskins »

In post 82, Kcdaspot wrote:
In post 77, Bub Bidderskins wrote:Yeah, we shouldn't compare how much a sword costs today with how much it'll cost in Amstaad. A better product to compare it with would be the cost of a gun today. Also, the cost of a full suit of armour during the middle ages was comparable to the cost of a car today. So around 20,000 for a good set of armour, but that's a
good
,
full
set of armour. An old, rusty set would cost the same as an old, rusty car. Light armour such as leather or fur would cost much less, maybe as much as a golf cart.

This doesn't and shouldn't mean we are basing the gold system on or loosely around the USD.


I don't see any reason not to.
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Mon May 21, 2012 4:36 am

Post by Kcdaspot »

This could mean it could take MONTHS for a semi decent sword.... hold up is there a limit to what our characters could bring into amastaad?
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Mon May 21, 2012 4:46 am

Post by Bub Bidderskins »

I was thinking that there would be a set amount of money that every character starts with (modified by relevant attributes, of course). Before you enter the game you purchase any items you want with your money. When you actually get into the game, your character has all those items plus any extra money.

As to how much stuff costs, there are couple of things. Firstly, your character will probably not have an "average" income, unless you want to spend the whole game working on a farm or something. Secondly, you won't buy everything that you get, there's also this think called "loot" in the game ;-).
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Mon May 21, 2012 4:50 am

Post by inspiratieloos »

Uhm, it's 3 days worth of wages for the average worker, the 2500 gold sword is the type a noble or rich merchant uses, the 10k sword is used by a professional fencer or a showoff.

Pedit: As Bub says the players won't be using average characters, we might not be crazy overpowered like in some games but we're still the heroes.
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Mon May 21, 2012 4:58 am

Post by Yaw »

I'll admit I've only been skimming, but I don't get why we need to turn this into an accounting exercise. The FATE system provides an easy way to deal with this without counting pennies. Just give the amount of disposable income a skill level, then work with that. That way, you don't have to price out every single item in existence. Just know it's approximate value, and compare to see if the player can buy it. If the player starts making several large purchases, bump them down a level. It'll make things much faster to get organized, and be much simpler to administrate if we reduce money to flavour. (And having things not be exactly the same price everywhere is realistic anyway.)
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Mon May 21, 2012 4:59 am

Post by inspiratieloos »

I believe that was how it was in the original Amstaad draft. It has problems.
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Mon May 21, 2012 5:02 am

Post by Yaw »

I'm not actually proposing to give skill points to money, which I think was the problem. Just have a level instead of strict currency.
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Mon May 21, 2012 5:36 am

Post by inspiratieloos »

I know what you mean, it was perfectly explained in the old rules.

The whole 'go down a level on a big purchase' just doesn't work, levels are exponential while money is much more complex.
A noble spends 1/3rd of his wealth on a new mansion, does his wealth move from Great to Good (or Superb to Great)?
If yes, does this mean he can't afford the food he used to yesterday despite having 2/3rd left?
If no, can he buy another, similar sized, mansion tomorrow with his still Great (Superb) wealth. And the day after? And the one after that?

Slight variation that might work:
Everyone has a wealth level and 3 points in it, you can buy anything 2 levels below your level for free (within reason), 1 level below rolls 1 FATE die (d3-2), on a '-' loses a point on '0' or '+' it's 'free' (too insignificant to count), anything your level just costs a point. Whenever you do what you do to make money you gain a points, you can use 5 points to make a purchase 1 level above your wealth. Being at 0 points temporarily reduces your effective level by 1 for 'free' purchases. Significant events can change your level.
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Mon May 21, 2012 6:11 am

Post by Kcdaspot »

So where does the 100 gold thing figure in?

Pedit: so instead of money per se we have gold levels?

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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Mon May 21, 2012 6:30 am

Post by Bub Bidderskins »

That actually sounds more complicated than just having money.
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Mon May 21, 2012 6:31 am

Post by quadz08 »

I honestly feel like having money is kind of silly...

I mean, we have a game mod for a reason, right? "I want to buy this mid-level sword" Moderator uses his brain and goes "you don't have enough money." We don't need to create a fully functioning economy.
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Mon May 21, 2012 6:42 am

Post by inspiratieloos »

Suppose for someone with normal wealth gains a point by working his job for a week (someone on the high end of normal might get 1 point/3 days, low end 1/14), an average sword has a 'normal' price, you can spend 1 point (a weeks work) to buy that sword. A slightly better sword (made by a smith's apprentice) might have a 'fair' cost, you'd have to work 5 weeks, gain 5 points, buy the sword then live frugally while working for another week.

A nobleman (Great wealth) sees the second sword in a shop, likes the look of it, puts some gold on the counter and takes it with him, with no noticeable difference in the weight of his gold pouch. The noble however, would probably consider such a sword below his station and buy a sword made by the smith himself which is 'good'. He rolls the Fate die (on average spending 1/3rd point of wealth), if he has to pay he'll probably gets 1-2 new points when the taxes on one of his estates comes in.

One of the great merchant lords of the city could probably buy the entire smithy without too much trouble.

@Bub/quadz, first system is slightly easier on the players, second is slightly easier on the mods if I had to guess. Both have advantages/disadvantages. Personally I wouldn't mind either system really.
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