Micro 913: Radja's Story - Episode 2 - GAME OVER

[Zenith]

Miller

[Zenith]

Miller

Do you hard claim this role?

Yep. Also Chet Grey again.

[Zenith]

Perform well, and your character will survive and possibly take on a bigger role in future episodes. Perfom badly, and your character might die or get overshadowed by others.

[Zenith]

I am curious, is it a lock that Chuck Porter and Brett Wilkins are the mafia flavor and everyone else is locktown? If so, then we might be able to use flavor to our advantage.

Scums have safeclaims.
There are 9 pro-town flavours.

^

[Zenith]

Please don't throw the game

?

Also, what's your reason for scum reading gobbledygook?

[Zenith]

tbh playing anon alts feels like saying "I don't give that much of a fuck for this game", hence why anon things are detestable

I couldn't disagree with you more. Sometimes I dont like having to deal with other people's expectations for me.

Plus you're implying that the decision to play anonymously is AI when it's decided before roles are received. If you're not trying to imply that then your wording is simply reckless because it kinda feels like you just slipped knowing my alignment.

-eth0s

What part of that sounded like creature was talking about your alignment?

Why does he care if I "don't give a fuck about this game" (horribly untrue generalization btw) if I'm not town, aka the alignment is or is pretending to be?

If he's got a problem with my slot that means he should think I'm not town right? In which case what problem should he have with me not giving a fuck? In other words it seems like he wants to have his cake and eat it too.

-eth0s

What about creature listing your slot as a town read? Nothing in post 77 reads as suggesting your aignment IMO.

Zenith - Town
Deathtunelling WOATS (Nancy Drew 39 + anonymous partner) - Town but with enough protection
Creature - Town
gobbledygook - Lean scum
Asriel Dreemurr - Lean town/don't care
Map Wolf - idk
KMD4390 - idk
Wimpy - Annoying, but probably lean town
Saffron Ghost - idk

Don't know what "but with enough protection" means though.

[Zenith]

gobble's avatar is strangely fitting for how their posts are coming across to me.

I love this. Mostly because I love my avatar. But what is the type of feeling that my avatar conveys to you? I have my own thoughts but I want to see what you say before I reveal mine

I've also picked up on odd vibes from the avatar. Tbh, it reminds me of gobbles from southpark.

[Zenith]

For some reason Creature's avatar kinda creeps me out a little. Saffron Ghost's avatar has me scratching my head and wondering what the heck it is.

[Zenith]

For some reason Creature's avatar kinda creeps me out a little.

idk how it could creep you out unless you take into account that's from Digimon so yeah any monster there is like deformed to look like a nuclear weapon

Sorry, I'm not sure why I said creature. Your avatar is fine. I think maybe somehow Kmd4390's avatar made me think of creature or something which cause the mixup. Your name seems like it would pair well with Kmd4390's avatar, but yea that's the one I find a little creepy. Imagine that creature staring at you through your bedroom window..

[Zenith]

Townreading WOATS because of Nancy.

Also the shade thing is too early to bring that up. Town is more likely to "shade" at this point as they need to get info from somewhere.

What exactly do you mean by shade?

[Zenith]

I'm not sure I understand the case vs Saffron Ghost. Post 122 seems odd, but is it scummy? Nothing else in their ISO pings me as particularly AI, though it's not a very lengthy ISO.

Also, if you could investigate someone tonight, who would it be and why?
@Anyone who wants to answer.

[Zenith]

As for my overall thoughts at the moment, Creature's entire series of part felt off to me, but I went through most of it quickly and didn't really nail down why. It almost felt while I was reading it as though he was playing an entirely different game.

gobble's avatar is strangely fitting for how their posts are coming across to me. I have a bit of a gut town read on them for reasons related to that and I'm hoping that will somehow make sense without me ever needing to explain it.

I feel comfortable reading kmd's posts. Unlikely scum.

I haven't liked the posting from either woats head.

Everyone else is pretty boring thus far, I think.

If us and Creature are your strongest sr, then why are you voting Asriel? This makes no sense.

I don't see any scum reads in 125.
Strangely no mention of Asriel, despite the Asriel vote being given before this, and no reasoning being given then.

I went and looked at their profile, and Saffron Ghost's only post outside of this thread was to /in radja.

Vote: Deathrunnelling WOATS

secret hydras are gross tbh

Are you calling yourself gross here? Or are you just an alt? What's going on?

[Zenith]

What pings me is if he truly didn’t remember making that post, then why still keep his vote on Asriel?

Look at Saffron's pronoun, and also their first post. Maybe Saffron didn't remember making that post because it was made by the other head?

[Zenith]

Please keep rule #6 in mind. Let's try to have a nice game.
6. Please be respectful and kind towards other players. I understand that Mafia can be a heated game sometimes, but there is a line, and if you cross it the game stops being fun. In particular, personal attacks are not allowed.

Just cause I don’t sheep people doesn’t mean I’m playing a solo game. I can scum read you and still work with others.

You should really try to develop your trust on others. If someone has played enough times with a player and is telling you they can read that player easily, you could like trust them rather than rely on your own judgement which can be pretty lacking compared to that someone.

Can take meta into consideration, but I'd never recommend fully trusting it. Last game supposedly someone had a perfect read of someone else and couldn't be wrong because had never been wrong, or something along those lines. Anyways, I correctly called that this sort of thinking would eventually be used against them. Their perfect read actually being wrong is one of the things that led to scum victory in episode 1.

Personally, I'm not immune to being influenced by people's meta reads, but I'm not a big fan of meta either, and would rather not rely on it. I get that some people find value in meta reads, and that's fine, but never fully trust it.

However Gamma has been super townie here all game and I have a perfect BoP as regards to correctly tr him, since MD. There has been no game since MD, where I said Gamma was town and been wrong, so I stand by that read.

This doesn't seem like a good attitude to have. Either you will eventually be wrong about Gamma, or you have some secret trust tell.

If you aren't scum, then you are 100% wrong about Gamma this game.

I was hoping to get vigged and avoid making it to LYLO, but I think the vig was one shot and it didn't work out that way. Was my own fault that I had too much shade on me to convince Uncrowned not to lynch me, though regardless I doubt there was anything I could have done to convince LGC that they were wrong about Gamma.

Point being, never fully trust meta. Is also probably a good idea to avoid the gambler's fallacy.

[Zenith]

Please keep rule #6 in mind. Let's try to have a nice game.
6. Please be respectful and kind towards other players. I understand that Mafia can be a heated game sometimes, but there is a line, and if you cross it the game stops being fun. In particular, personal attacks are not allowed.

I don't think we were attacking each other personally even if Wimpy thinks I was for ignoring his V/LA.

Just hoping to avoid escalation.

Also tbh I don't think Gamma can ever be fully read through meta. Some players can infallibly be pretty genuine as one alignment though while doing just the enough to skate by as the other alignment (hence why completely ignoring meta can also be harmful).

Balance to everything.

In my case, I carry some experiences from previous games, but doubt I'll ever go out of my way to read someone elses games in pursuit of a meta read. I'll also take into consideration when someone gives meta read on another player, though with a grain of salt. A player giving self meta read on themself though seems icky if unprovoked, so I'll likely just try to ignore.

Meta reads can give insight into behavior, but decent players should be aware of their own meta and able to manipulate it. It's a double edged blade. A potentially useful / potentially dangerous tool that should be handled with care and never fully trusted. IMO

[Zenith]

I think you've played more than enough mafia to know that if you are genuinely talking reads in a Hydra pt it means you're town. So either your slot genuinely posted in the wrong thread and are definitely town OR your slot faked it and must be scum as a result. I don't like you pretending not to understand this.

This was part of the reason for my town read, though maybe shouldn't be considered AI for reasons you listed above? Or I guess it's technically AI but hiding behind wifom.

I dunno. I probably shouldn't be posting this close to sleep time.

[Zenith]

Just caught up on the thread.

I think creature is probably town and I probably made a mountain out of a molehill with my earlier comments about him

but I also don't regret those comments

.

What comments?

VOTE: Creature
Also:

Spoiler: chaos

but he is also out of line to attack you personally.

He crossed the line first. I responded accordingly

Huh no, pushing someone isn't crossing the line

Calling someone pos is out of line, because you attacked his character not his play.

Me not understand

What Creature did isn’t really personal

I disagree. As I explained accusing me of disappearing implies intentional. Ignoring the fact I declared v/la and accusingly me of disappearing is personal to me. You can’t say what is and isn’t a personal attack to me now move on

and that's how it feels arguing with a liberal

He shouldn’t have said that but not technically in violation. People do that all the time in games I’ve been in but I’ll get eth0s to clarify this.

It is actually and just cause it’s not enforced doesn’t mean it’s not against the rules.

Love auto-contradictory sentences

I thought (hoped) this mess was over when I went to sleep soon after my last post, but then I wake up to this? Really?
-facepalm-
I think everything to say on this topic has been said and that everyone should just move on already. For the purpose of improving the health of this game, can we please just drop it and act like it didn't happen?

And then we have Creature seemingly wanting to prolong/escalate the chaos. Why? At best, this is antitown, but I think this is a scum tell, as I've seen this before. It's about motivation. Town has motivation to clear things up, move on, and not let it distract from the game, but scum can enjoy excessive noise and chaos.

[Zenith]

Why was Saffron a top wagoon?

I really want to know.
I don't find Saffron that scummy from ISO.

I thought saffron was mostly NAI. Hopefully after the game they will reveal if my speculation about Saffron being a hydra was correct or not.

[Zenith]

Just caught up on the thread.

I think creature is probably town and I probably made a mountain out of a molehill with my earlier comments about him

but I also don't regret those comments

.

What comments?

VOTE: Creature
Also:

Spoiler: chaos

but he is also out of line to attack you personally.

He crossed the line first. I responded accordingly

Huh no, pushing someone isn't crossing the line

Calling someone pos is out of line, because you attacked his character not his play.

Me not understand

What Creature did isn’t really personal

I disagree. As I explained accusing me of disappearing implies intentional. Ignoring the fact I declared v/la and accusingly me of disappearing is personal to me. You can’t say what is and isn’t a personal attack to me now move on

and that's how it feels arguing with a liberal

He shouldn’t have said that but not technically in violation. People do that all the time in games I’ve been in but I’ll get eth0s to clarify this.

It is actually and just cause it’s not enforced doesn’t mean it’s not against the rules.

Love auto-contradictory sentences

I thought (hoped) this mess was over when I went to sleep soon after my last post, but then I wake up to this? Really?
-facepalm-
I think everything to say on this topic has been said and that everyone should just move on already. For the purpose of improving the health of this game, can we please just drop it and act like it didn't happen?

And then we have Creature seemingly wanting to prolong/escalate the chaos. Why? At best, this is antitown, but I think this is a scum tell, as I've seen this before. It's about motivation. Town has motivation to clear things up, move on, and not let it distract from the game, but scum can enjoy excessive noise and chaos.

Why did you quote eth0s’ post? Don’t you see Wimpy as also escalating and being antitown too? He was literally threatening to report my slot for God even knows what.

~N

Players directly involved in a dispute I can somewhat give a pass to, up to a certain point anyways. I can understand it being difficult to drop something like that from the inside. Hell in episode 1 me and enter were locked into it and even with me trying to end it, it felt like both enter and outside parties kept trying to drag me back in, which made it incredibly difficult to end and resulted in enter's death.

Anyways, a third party coming to poke the bear is an entirely different thing, and doesn't deserve the same kind of pass IMO.

[Zenith]

Btw just ftr, I think I made it pretty clear in episode 1 that setup spec isn't one of my strong points because I'm not familiar with all the roles, nor do I really care to be. I put effort into my games, but I'm not the kind of person to be going out of my way or taking advantage of outside resources, whether it's to read meta on someone, read some guide trying to tell me how to play, or learn roles, whatever, it's just not me. I'd rather learn things from experience, from playing the game.

Anyways, point being that I didn't know what a miller was until I read my role. Feel free to be skeptical if I ever claim miller again, but i think anyone familiar with me can pretty much consider me almost conf town.

[Zenith]

Town has motivation to clear things up, move on, and not let it distract from the game, but scum can enjoy excessive noise and chaos.

Wrong, scum benefits when town is settled on wrong reads. While the town's reads are stable on the wrong, scum can easily fabricate posts to further it.

If the town is chaotic, scum should be pretty careful because town could easily turn against them and one wrong step put them in the open.

How is infighting and toxicity over personal insults a good thing for town and why would you want to prolong and escalate such a thing??

[Zenith]

Town has motivation to clear things up, move on, and not let it distract from the game, but scum can enjoy excessive noise and chaos.

Wrong, scum benefits when town is settled on wrong reads. While the town's reads are stable on the wrong, scum can easily fabricate posts to further it.

If the town is chaotic, scum should be pretty careful because town could easily turn against them and one wrong step put them in the open.

How is infighting and toxicity over personal insults a good thing for town and why would you want to prolong and escalate such a thing??

First I'm not being toxic or anything, Wimpy is pretty free to stay in the game if he's able to give the game attention at least a few minutes every two days.

Second when people are heated they tend to be better to read as a town perspective becomes harder to fake from scum.

Did I accuse you of being toxic? No, I'm accusing you of poking the bear, which you have just admitted to doing intentionally.

What kind of insight have you gained from them fighting so far and what

specifically

do you hope to gain by making the situation worse?

This kind of situation can result in a plethora of nasty outcomes.. Can result in tvt death tunnels, people become defensive and closed off, backfire effect kicks in and people will double down on beliefs despite evidence to the contrary, anger in general clouds thinking and can make people less reasonable, people start replacing out or a mod has to step in and force replace or modkill people, the game can become much less enjoyable and people and up blacklisting each other, etc. It's not a good idea to intentionally try to escalate a toxic / potentially volatile situation unless you just really want to watch the world burn. If you want to try to tell me that you can only read angry people then I'm going to have to call BS, and I don't see how any perceived gain in ability to read an angry person vs a calm person is worth the risks.

[Zenith]

Why would you be annoyed about this? It’s good that he did.

I honestly dont think I would have done that meta. There was a time when I would have gone back to fetch examples, but my games all blend together.

Well, it was definitely useful for me because I had never really seen him tryhard as town, so it was helpful to know that wasn’t scum indicative for him.

@Zenith, do you think Asriel is playing similar to RS 1 or differently here?

Pretty similar. Seems low effort, lurky, confused, paying maybe half attention to the game.
Post #49 in particular has me scratching my head.

I think I prefer Flowey, though not by much. Flowey's reads weren't great, but at least it seemed to try a little more.

Anyways, he is difficult for me to read, as there's not much to read, and what little there is seems NAI to me.

[Zenith]

Why would you be annoyed about this? It’s good that he did.

I honestly dont think I would have done that meta. There was a time when I would have gone back to fetch examples, but my games all blend together.

Well, it was definitely useful for me because I had never really seen him tryhard as town, so it was helpful to know that wasn’t scum indicative for him.

@Zenith, do you think Asriel is playing similar to RS 1 or differently here?

Pretty similar. Seems low effort, lurky, confused, paying maybe half attention to the game.
Post #49 in particular has me scratching my head.

I think I prefer Flowey, though not by much. Flowey's reads weren't great, but at least it seemed to try a little more.

Anyways, he is difficult for me to read, as there's not much to read, and what little there is seems NAI to me.

Yes, so it’s not just me then, he was definitely more active last game. I actually think Creature is more likely town than not, so who else are you suspicious of?

Tl on you and to a lesser extent KMD4390.
Sl on creature. Counter meta might soften that lean if someone other than creature wants to provide any.

Been back and forth on gobbles but overall everyone else is pretty NAI to me so far.

[Zenith]

From episode 1.

next episode I'll try to be a bit quieter, hopefully less abrasive.

I'd like to avoid being in another D1 tvt death tunnel, and don't really want to dominate the game. So I'm trying to practice restraint via a more passive approach, instead of aggressively poking at people for reads. Hopefully my reads will improve as the game progresses, but right now I don't see much in the way of AI yet, and this funky cloud hanging over the game for the past however many pages has been obscuring things, which doesn't exactly help. So I'm confused as to why town creature would want to intentionally poke the bear in hopes of creating obfuscating chaos.

[Zenith]

Me thinking you’re scum does not mean I am acting deliberately dense. Unless there are people mod confirming you as town, I am allowed to suspect you.

Woats isn't getting lynched today.

Who else do you suspect and why?

[Zenith]

Somehow I missed a page when I made my last post. I'm not sure why/how gobble would begin the game with information on someone else's role. It seems strange. If true though, why would you out your PR suspect? I don't understand.

As long as everyone makes it abundantly clear Pisskop is L-1 I will treat a hammer without a claim as a scumclaim.

Really? Why?

[Zenith]

Somehow I missed a page when I made my last post. I'm not sure why/how gobble would begin the game with information on someone else's role. It seems strange. If true though, why would you out your PR suspect? I don't understand.

As long as everyone makes it abundantly clear Pisskop is L-1 I will treat a hammer without a claim as a scumclaim.

Really? Why?

He’s saying he doesn’t want a hammer before he claims.

I get that. I'd like gobble to elaborate thoughts on people who hammer someone without declaring intent or giving them a chance to claim.

makes me think my creature/wolf team is actually right

Nah he's probably in the top 3 of the most scummy in my view.

Creature, saffron/pisskop and who else? I can't tell who the third is from your ISO. Also, by in the top 3, do you mean that creature is third most suspicious, or you can't order your top 3? I'm a bit confused.

I think they are angling for an Asriel lynch because Asriel is low hanging fruit.

I want asriel to play the game but they aren't and I don't really see that happening.
You call it LHF, I call it lynching someone who has avoided doing anything AI and will likely hinder the game if town, or is sitting back and letting a bunch of TvT bullshit happen if scum.
-e

Somehow I doubt he can stump again. I wonder if we kick Asriel hard enough or something if we could get him to evolve into Flowey.

what I don't get is why if creature thinks that is legitimate, he has ignored wolf who has done it twice now.

I already said: gobble is softing a clear or something on Map Wolf, otherwise I would be pushing the hell out of him

I’ve explained. Wolf is my mom flavor wise. I do not think he is scum because of that.

Flavour in this game is not AI but I don’t like that Asriel hasn’t done anything yet, he was far more active and opinionated in RS 1.

Actually the play has been eerily similar. I mean, just pull up the ISOs side by side, it isn't a lengthy read. Asriel has 13 posts here, and posted 11 times in episode 1.

Sure Flowey had 32 posts, but he didn't become Flowey until D2, and those 32 posts were spread through the rest of the game.

Considering we are still in D1, Asriel's been slightly more active than episode one. The quality of posts also eerily similar so far.

[Zenith]

I'd like gobble to elaborate thoughts on people who hammer someone without declaring intent or giving them a chance to claim.

I said that to assuage Nancy’s fears of putting Pisskop at L-1. If someone had hammered Pisskop i would have bought them an edible arrangement. General theory: Hammering without a claim is a context dependent read.

Also, I see you, Zenith. Barking up the wrong tree.

I wouldn't hold it against you. Just curious where your mind is at.

[Zenith]

If it’s neighbors which it clearly is. Wolf isn’t clear and doesn’t get a pass

Agree ^

[Zenith]

I think you got the point, mate.
Victor is likely to be a PR, and flavour cop is not given.
This means that mass flavour claim is a bad idea.

He might not have posted more but he made really townie posts like the above on D1.

Maybe I view that post differently, because those aren't original thoughts. All I see there is him agreeing with some things that I had said. Looks NAI.

I am curious, is it a lock that Chuck Porter and Brett Wilkins are the mafia flavor and everyone else is locktown? If so, then we might be able to use flavor to our advantage.

Possible townslip?

Like I and Haggle made pretty much very similar posts to this in RS 1. And I would probably be doing it here as well, had I not been in that game and found out flavour claiming is essentially useless in this game.

I tried pointing that out from the beginning, but it seemed difficult to get through to people.

[Zenith]

I'm not good with setup spec, but I trust woats here and sounds good enough to me. Plus the day has been long and I don't really see another lynch happening at this point.

Intent to hammer.

[Zenith]

Mild TL on gobble.

@Woats
Seems strange, but is it possible that there is no alignment investigative? If so then how likely?

Again, I'm pretty awful at setup spec, as was proven in episode 1.


Anyways, time for bed. Have at least until I wake up before hammer.

[Zenith]

Deadline is in 2 days, and I don't see a good reason to drag this out.

VOTE: Pisskop

L-1

[Zenith]

Lynching asriel instead is a good reason

You're welcome to try to make that case to shift the wagon if you want. Just under a 2 day max time limit.

[Zenith]

Role: Neighbor: REDACTED.

Weird?

[Zenith]

Ever since D1 ended I've felt like I entered the twilight zone or something because not much has made sense to me.

Seems like the only thing to reliably make sense, is comments from woats.

I'm also cool with massclaim at this point, as long as vig doesn't reveal how many bullets are in the gun.

Neither NK makes sense to me as coming from scum, so maybe knowing which was town's nk and the motivations for it, will help me to take a better look into potential motivations for scum's nk.

[Zenith]

Tbh, I keep expecting flowey to pop in and say hello.

[Zenith]

I mean, I doubt that will happen based on the flip, but a small part of me keeps expecting a Flowey to appear.

[Zenith]

VOTE: KMD4390

L-1

If vig shoots and gets NKed, both actions happen resulting in 2 deaths, assuming no protection, roleblock, etc shenanigans.

Someone else from the neighborhood could probably confirm what the asriel role redaction is about via role pm comparison.

If I was scum I'd claim something that makes people Unvote and not target me at night. PGO would have been a good one. Maybe gunsmith or vanilla cop because they'd be weak enough in this kind of game to make sense. But VT? No. Especially not with people thinking I'm a power role already. It should be painfully obvious what I was trying to do in hindsight .

As scum, you wouldn't try to mimic your town play?

VT seems like a safe thing to crumb in this game with the roles being uncertain.

Specially considering:

Preview edit: *shrug*. I'm not good with setup stuff.

[Zenith]

VOTE: Wimpy

[Zenith]

VOTE: Wimpy

Why? I really don’t think he’s scum here.

~N

Multiple reasons.

Reading his ISO, a Wimpy + Saffron Ghost / Pisskop team makes sense to me.

If Wimpy is town, I'll mix up some tuna, vanilla icecream, sriracha, jalapeno, mustard, chocolate, anchovy, and egg in a blender and drink a full glass.

[Zenith]

Read wimpy ISO and tell me I'm wrong.

[Zenith]

Spoiler: Wimpy ISO after removing most of the noise

Ooh a wagon

VOTE: woat

VOTE: Saffron

I’ll probably regret that but idc

I don’t understand why you felt the need to point this out. He hasn’t even been prodging, has he?

No. Nor will I. I’m going to be the highest poster and I hate lurkers.

VOTE: Creature

Wolf looks bad for that l-1 vote. It came from nowhere and don’t see any reasoning. The entire wagon is bad.

Creature/wolf I’m good lynching.

Need to really sit and read these pages but just skimming and that’s good. Creature town doesn’t miss a player declaring v/la and then using it against him. That’s dirty play. Scum play dirty

tbh even Saffron and Asriel something could have happened with them off the game but doesn't change the fact noposting slots still drag us down.

Hyper posting a bunch of nonsense doesn’t help either. You’ve made the game a chore to read cause you can’t compose your thoughts into a couple of posts. That’s also a scum tactic imo.

No it isn’t. I don’t sheep others. I make up my own mind.

Until I can sit and read I don’t have any reads. Just skimming though I have two scum reads so I’m not really worried about anyone else RN

I’ve seen it not work way more than it does. I also can’t blindly trust the read of somebody who may be scum trying to mislead me.

I only trust myself. Now if nobody agrees with me, that’s cool. I don’t have to agree with everyone to still work with them.

But I won’t be able to trust any wagon you’re on. Not at least until I see something town but when I feel insulted or attacked I tend to get stubborn and rn I’m pretty stubborn. I would basically need mod to confirm you to change my read.

I want Saffron to post :/

I want you to post.

How about explain the out of the blue l-1 vote?

And why you did that before posting your reads?

Wolf looks bad for that l-1 vote. It came from nowhere and don’t see any reasoning. The entire wagon is bad.

I was getting kind of impatient with this game and wanted stuff to happen. I don't see anything wrong with a L-1 vote. Now I can't say whether this wagon is a good one or not, but I am on it for a lack of a better alternative atm.

But lurker lynch doesn’t really help solve the game. He’s most likely town who just got bored or more likely an alt who forgot about this game.

You as town should know that’s a terrible lynch

I don’t really get why people scum read saffron. He didn’t do anything scummy. Definitely not nearly scummy as creature.

VOTE: Saffron Ghost

Opportunistic scum imo

Trying to figure out why people are voting. This stands out cause there is nothing in saffron’s iso that supports this.
How exactly was he/she opportunistic?

Gobble has better reasons though I don’t agree with those posts being that scummy. But I’m sort of biased against the wagon cause of creature.

Map was opportunistic yet creature didn’t seem to have an issue with it. Kind of makes him a hypocrite

The fact that saffron has been the only serious wagon shows me town is lazy and scum is probably pushing the wagon.

Where they initially vote I think that’s good for pressure but I don’t know if you can determine alignment.

The second quote I Need to go back and read cause I don’t see where he sidestepped and i don’t understand why saffron not unvoting is a problem.

I mean sure saffron doesn’t look great but I honestly think this may be a case of a poor player who created an alt to hide the fact he is.

Two ok reasons vs two bad ones/no reasons kind of cancel each out. Since creature lied and the other was opportunistic, my gut says this is a scum lead wagon and you/wots could just be wrong.

Wolf

Add woats into the mix.

You can help me lynch pk and then Wimpy or you might die so it would be win/win all around.

Can you do me first? I’m seriously over this game

It is possible that the bodyguard is a scum role but that would be really weird

unless we have a vig

I still don't understand this wagon.

creature/wolf/woats are all scummier to me

creature/wolf/woats are all scummier to me

Talk to me about these?

creature is pretty obvious. he hasn't really been scum hunting, just fluff posting multiple times over and over. Sort of like what pisskop is doing so I don't know how you can say 1 is scummy and the other isn't.

wolf has done nothing but has been opportunistic twice really

woats - this one is just gut. the hydra really messes me up though. two heads and they don't seem to be cohesive. could be intentional

What is town indicative?

I don't think creature is sorting genuinely no
I don't care about the mime game, his play THIS game is bad and doesn't look like town

that is why I am saying it could be intentional. I would think as scum it would be very easy to fake.

It can but my experience that tends to be more indicative of a town hydra. In Magical Girls, there was a scum hydra and the two heads were agreeing on almost everything, to the point that they were practically parroting each other.

unfortunately I don't have enough experience with hyrdra. I thought the point was to discuss in your qt and be cohesive. 2 people playing 1 role not on the same page makes it easier to do as scum in my opinion.

it could just be paranoia also but I get scum vibes. i don't know how else to explain it.


I don't really trust anyone on this wagon cause I don't understand why it exists.

ISO Saffron Ghost.

I did. I didn't see anything that bad. creature and wolf are definitely scummier to me.

That said, pisskop hasn't really said much of substance either so I get why people want to keep the pressure on that slot.

how is that opportunstic? Wolf is guilty of it, i don't see saffron doing it

I have completely forgotten about asriel

what I don't get is why if creature thinks that is legitimate, he has ignored wolf who has done it twice now.

makes me think my creature/wolf team is actually right

I want asriel to play the game but they aren't and I don't really see that happening.

what about wolf? do you want him to play the game also?

Did I miss wolf flavor claiming?

If it’s neighbors which it clearly is. Wolf isn’t clear and doesn’t get a pass

I never said I scum read gobbles but nobody is obviously town to me

There are some players who can play really well. Also helps with the right group of town which I’d say this game qualifies. He’s a town lean but nobody is obviously town to me.

I’m paranoid of everyone. It’s in my nature. Probably why I struggle

I sort of feel like if piss was legit he’d be putting up more of a fight. I still don’t understand this wagon but based on his play I guess I can see why people find it scummy.

Looks like he’s going to be the lynch

VOTE: pisskop

Maybe we can lynch creature tomorrow

VOTE: Wolf
Idk what the hammer rule is either but I didn’t even want to be on the wagon. I know that doesn’t gain me any points but I still contend after the flip that I have no idea what it’s based off of. I don’t see how creature was town either.

Wolf was my day 1 read and I see nothing they have done to suggest I’m wrong. I probably should be lynched just go eliminate confusion but I’ll still fight it cause fuck getting lynched.

You really think we would have bused like that?

To be fair one of the games I replaced out of just ended recently and scum bussed day 1 and won the game.

Anything is possible. Gobble could be scum for all we know.

Neither are likely but that’s not a good defense.

So wait. There is a 3p neighborhood? Why did I think there was only two?

I also don’t know why you both agreed you’d be the Nk. I thought for sure gobble was the obvious one.

@gobble I know you think wolf is town but can you point to anything game related (not flavor) to support the read?

Why say that Ethos bus comment is not a good defense when you also bring up a not great defense by saying you didn’t even want to vote Asriel?

I said I probably should be lynched so I’m not actually using it as a defense. Keep up

He could have used the fact that I didn’t want to lynch as a reason. Using the fact I hammered is a weird take is what I’m saying.

I will say whoever did kill creature. Thank you. I mean sucks he was town but he’s a disgusting person as far as I’m concerned

Like you town read wolf for stuff he’s said but he doesn’t post here. He’s contributed nothing

It's a made up rule

I don’t see town making up something to justify a vote. If you are you suck cause I’m going to death tunnel you now.

Well that and the fact you haven’t actually played the game

I think Map is town and townslipped. Kmd tried to derail Piss wagon. I honestly don’t understand how he isn’t yours and Wimpy’s #1 sr? Iirc, wasn’t Map voting Piss?

Townslips can be faked. Map had no reason to vote that slot. That could definitely be a Buss vote. He’s done nothing to indicate he’s town. He’s not scum hunting. He fabricated reason to vote.

I bet money, scum didn’t bus and the only ones other than kmd who were not on Piss wagon are dead. This really isn’t rocket science.

Yeah, never voting Map.

That VC is very misleading though. What did wolf do to catch scum?

I feel like scum would have bussed given that Saffron was the number 1 wagon for the longest time. KMD until the bitter end didn’t want it. I don’t know if scum puts themselves out there at that cost.

If KMD is the vig, Nancy, what does that do to your solve?

I didn’t want it either to be fair

If it was a bus, then it’s Wimpy but I don’t think so. I don’t think scum busses GF, especially with a hardclaimed miller in play.

It’s definitely not me.

I actually thought zenith was cop faking Miller lol

What I don't get is how you can analyze that wagon and think wolf is clear town. can you explain what he did to earn a lock town read?

We are vig, there’s no freaking SK.

Says you. Mod refused to answer when asked earlier in the game. That means it’s a possibility. Not likely but a possibility

But it doesn’t matter. I don’t trust your ability to read people when you can’t even explain why wolf is town.

I’m an evidence based person.

Wolf looks bad for that l-1 vote. It came from nowhere and don’t see any reasoning. The entire wagon is bad.

This post doesn’t exactly look great for you, Wimpy, in light of Piss flip. I still think kmd > you though. I think Map’s iso looks townie.

I already said this day phase that what I said day one still rings true. I have no idea why that wagon happened. Creature was the better lynch.

I don’t play to look good.

Cause you’re probably town and I don’t want you to get a big head and possibly lose the game. You’re making assumptions you shouldn’t

That’s a good point. He’s probably vig but paranoia is a bitch lol

I’m liking Wimpy a bit more - alignment-wise not solving-wise.

what does this mean?

I’ll have to reread but it’s be down to you and kmd and I’m town reading your slot. Once it’s game time though I drop the bias and try to reread each person

I’ll even have to consider if the Miller claim is legit. I mean probably is but I’ll definitely analyze that slot also.

This is assuming I’m alive. Both of you and kmd are alive.

I feel this flips scum though

I’d only kill creature if I was a vig. As scum I’d want him alive to continue the 1v1.

Dude, your reasoning for sr Gobbles, surpasses your reasoning for voting for Wimpy earlier.

well to be fair, i always think one neighbor is scum so that isn't as bad as you make it seem. I got force replaced for trying to get him lynched

Map i voted wimpy and gobble day 1

and asriel

By the way, don't hammer. I'll just flip town at no benefit. Wait a few days and we'd at least have more info when I flip town.

What would we be waiting for? I mean maybe zenith could post something before the day ends but if you were going to provide useful info you would have already.

Anything is possible. I really wasn’t expecting him to pull out a pr claim.

-There was a LOT of noise in Wimpy ISO. Most of which I tried to cut out of the ISO in spoiler above. ^

-Wimpy interactions with creature, asriel, map wolf, woats, and saffron ghost / pisskop all seem off.

-All his reads have been poopy, no offense.

-Been pushing map all game. Why? Because bleh.

-To a lesser extent pushed Creature since early game. Why? Because bleh.

-To an even lesser extent been throwing shade at woats since pretty early. Why? Because bleh. Even after vig claim oh paranoia maybe is sk!

-Creature flipped town, woats is most likely town, and map wolf seems like lynchbait to me.

-Been looking for PRs. Why is wimpy PR hunting?

-Had motive to kill creature.

-Why go after map wolf for being lurky, but ignore asriel, and defend saffron ghost?

-Wimpy rvs votes Saffron then says he'll probably regret it but doesn't care. Weird. Then directly defends saffron in 6 different posts, and also indirectly defends saffron in posts like 339 and 364. Plus also defends pisskop a couple of times.

-Who else in this game have you defended? Mr paranoia nobody is town anybody could be scum even miller claim even the vig who was largely responsible for getting scum lynched D1.

-Seemed to reeeally want to avoid a saffron/pisskop lynch, and then reluctantly voted saffron when it was obvious lynch was unavoidable, for no other reason than because "Looks like he’s going to be the lynch", despite earlier claiming to not sheep others and how he makes up his own mind. Then immediately D2 seems nervous about the flips making him look suspicious. Even claiming to be worried that he would be lynched.

[Zenith]

Map wolf ISO seems mostly NAI, but the way everyone else has treated the slot makes me want to give map wolf a slight town lean.

Map wolf lynch just seems too easy. Feels like mislynch bait to me.

[Zenith]

Fine.

Intent to hammer map wolf in around 5 hours.

[Zenith]

@woats
Still want map hammered?

Will extend my intent to hammer deadline until woats gets a chance to respond to map wolf's role claim.

Setup speculation not one of my strengths.

[Zenith]

And I’m back to, who tf else kills Creature? Creature wasn’t a threat to anyone other than Map, where as I think scum!anyone else in this game would have been cop hunting and killed us. He also sounds kind of wooden here, compared with mime, where the sincerity was practically oozing out of every single post.

Wimpy

-Had motive to kill creature.

Map wolf ISO seems mostly NAI, but the way everyone else has treated the slot makes me want to give map wolf a slight town lean.

Map wolf lynch just seems too easy. Feels like mislynch bait to me.

So Zenith is completely right in this post. Could this be scum resisting a mislynch for credibility? Actually this seems very possible.
Look at 912. This could be explained as scum realizing that the lynch is going to happen, and that you may as well be on the wagon. Think about it. If Zenith is scum, and KMD is lynched, then I might be vigged and someone else might be nightkilled. That'd make it a 2v1 lylo where perhaps Wimpy or gobble might be lynched.

VOTE: Zenith

Think I might've solved this.

Lol.. Why would I need town points from you? I'm just trying to make sure that scum doesn't win this game. Seems like woats is convinced you should die, but to me you seem like too easy of a lynch. I think there's good reason to suspect wimpy, but as long as he doesn't survive lylo I'm ok with doing whatever woats wants.



Anyways, just woke up. Will post again after catching up on the thread.

[Zenith]

Asriel’s role says, “Redacted”, which mean his bg role had been hidden, that’s why Gobbles doesn’t believe Map.

~N


This game’s already won because Map wasn’t paying attention and unknowingly scumclaimed.

Someone else from the neighborhood could probably confirm what the asriel role redaction is about via role pm comparison.

[Zenith]

Caught up. Guess now we just wait for flips.

[Zenith]

So then who gets lynched tomorrow?

[Zenith]

I claimed miller in my very first post and didn't know what a miller is until I read my role pm..

On that creature read list, who's at the bottom? If creature had survived i wouldn't have been surprised to see a wimpy/creature tunnel.

I dunno how you look at the interactions between wimpy and saffron/pisskop and creature and can't even see wimpy as possible scum.

[Zenith]

But yea, assuming me and wimpy both survive to lylo, that's probably who I'll be voting.

[Zenith]

If Wimpy is town, I'll mix up some tuna, vanilla icecream, sriracha, jalapeno, mustard, chocolate, anchovy, and egg in a blender and drink a full gl

Get ready

Would rather drink this weird concoction than let scum wimpy win this game.

[Zenith]

Well.. That was some nightmare fuel..

VOTE: Wimpy

Either wimpy or nolynch.

[Zenith]

Right now there is 3 town vs 1 scum.

Nolynch would mean that scum can choose to either remove a potential misslynch from the voting pool, or offer a happily ever after.

I don't see myself voting for anything other than wimpy or nolynch. Don't let that stop anyone from trying to present a case for an alternative though.

But yea, assuming me and wimpy both survive to lylo, that's probably who I'll be voting.

If Wimpy is town, I'll mix up some tuna, vanilla icecream, sriracha, jalapeno, mustard, chocolate, anchovy, and egg in a blender and drink a full gl

Get ready

Would rather drink this weird concoction than let scum wimpy win this game.

[Zenith]

15. You can vote for a player to get them lynched. Voting for no lynch will be considered invalid, for the purposes of this game.
16. Votes must use the vote tags, like this: VOTE: Radja. please try and use recognisable names/nicknames wherever possible.
17. A lynch requires a majority (over 50%) vote. For example, when there are 9 players alive, it will take 5 votes to lynch, because that is the smallest number over 50% of the number of players.
18. Deadlines are 10 days for each day phase, nights will last 48 hours. I may extend this if I deem it appropriate. When the deadline expires, the day will end. If no majority is reached, the day ends with no lynch.
19. When a lynch is reached or deadline expires, I will lock the thread and start the Night phase as soon as I can. You are allowed to post before I do this, if you want.
20. All approved private topics included in any role PMs may be used for discussion at any time. That means that the mafia, along with any other hypothetical roles using private topics, may be used during both day phases and night phases.

Since we can't vote for no lynch though, seems like we would have to unvote and wait for the deadline timer to run out?

[Zenith]

It takes 3 out of 4 votes to lynch. I'm fine leaving my vote where it is unless someone wants to try to convince me that I'm wrong.

No way does wimpy flip town.

[Zenith]

Lol debunked my ass.

[Zenith]

Creature wanted you to die, and had correctly called out both you and your partner. That's plenty of motive for you to NK creature..

[Zenith]

Lol debunked my ass.

I debunked it and woats did.

You really don’t have a reason to suspect me tbh

You didn't debunk shit, half of my points you didn't even address, the other half was pretty pathetic attempt at a defense.

Nancy did well early game this time but somehow became blinded like she did last game.

[Zenith]

Spoiler: Wimpy ISO after removing most of the noise

Ooh a wagon

VOTE: woat

VOTE: Saffron

I’ll probably regret that but idc

I don’t understand why you felt the need to point this out. He hasn’t even been prodging, has he?

No. Nor will I. I’m going to be the highest poster and I hate lurkers.

VOTE: Creature

Wolf looks bad for that l-1 vote. It came from nowhere and don’t see any reasoning. The entire wagon is bad.

Creature/wolf I’m good lynching.

Need to really sit and read these pages but just skimming and that’s good. Creature town doesn’t miss a player declaring v/la and then using it against him. That’s dirty play. Scum play dirty

tbh even Saffron and Asriel something could have happened with them off the game but doesn't change the fact noposting slots still drag us down.

Hyper posting a bunch of nonsense doesn’t help either. You’ve made the game a chore to read cause you can’t compose your thoughts into a couple of posts. That’s also a scum tactic imo.

No it isn’t. I don’t sheep others. I make up my own mind.

Until I can sit and read I don’t have any reads. Just skimming though I have two scum reads so I’m not really worried about anyone else RN

I’ve seen it not work way more than it does. I also can’t blindly trust the read of somebody who may be scum trying to mislead me.

I only trust myself. Now if nobody agrees with me, that’s cool. I don’t have to agree with everyone to still work with them.

But I won’t be able to trust any wagon you’re on. Not at least until I see something town but when I feel insulted or attacked I tend to get stubborn and rn I’m pretty stubborn. I would basically need mod to confirm you to change my read.

I want Saffron to post :/

I want you to post.

How about explain the out of the blue l-1 vote?

And why you did that before posting your reads?

Wolf looks bad for that l-1 vote. It came from nowhere and don’t see any reasoning. The entire wagon is bad.

I was getting kind of impatient with this game and wanted stuff to happen. I don't see anything wrong with a L-1 vote. Now I can't say whether this wagon is a good one or not, but I am on it for a lack of a better alternative atm.

But lurker lynch doesn’t really help solve the game. He’s most likely town who just got bored or more likely an alt who forgot about this game.

You as town should know that’s a terrible lynch

I don’t really get why people scum read saffron. He didn’t do anything scummy. Definitely not nearly scummy as creature.

VOTE: Saffron Ghost

Opportunistic scum imo

Trying to figure out why people are voting. This stands out cause there is nothing in saffron’s iso that supports this.
How exactly was he/she opportunistic?

Gobble has better reasons though I don’t agree with those posts being that scummy. But I’m sort of biased against the wagon cause of creature.

Map was opportunistic yet creature didn’t seem to have an issue with it. Kind of makes him a hypocrite

The fact that saffron has been the only serious wagon shows me town is lazy and scum is probably pushing the wagon.

Where they initially vote I think that’s good for pressure but I don’t know if you can determine alignment.

The second quote I Need to go back and read cause I don’t see where he sidestepped and i don’t understand why saffron not unvoting is a problem.

I mean sure saffron doesn’t look great but I honestly think this may be a case of a poor player who created an alt to hide the fact he is.

Two ok reasons vs two bad ones/no reasons kind of cancel each out. Since creature lied and the other was opportunistic, my gut says this is a scum lead wagon and you/wots could just be wrong.

Wolf

Add woats into the mix.

You can help me lynch pk and then Wimpy or you might die so it would be win/win all around.

Can you do me first? I’m seriously over this game

It is possible that the bodyguard is a scum role but that would be really weird

unless we have a vig

I still don't understand this wagon.

creature/wolf/woats are all scummier to me

creature/wolf/woats are all scummier to me

Talk to me about these?

creature is pretty obvious. he hasn't really been scum hunting, just fluff posting multiple times over and over. Sort of like what pisskop is doing so I don't know how you can say 1 is scummy and the other isn't.

wolf has done nothing but has been opportunistic twice really

woats - this one is just gut. the hydra really messes me up though. two heads and they don't seem to be cohesive. could be intentional

What is town indicative?

I don't think creature is sorting genuinely no
I don't care about the mime game, his play THIS game is bad and doesn't look like town

that is why I am saying it could be intentional. I would think as scum it would be very easy to fake.

It can but my experience that tends to be more indicative of a town hydra. In Magical Girls, there was a scum hydra and the two heads were agreeing on almost everything, to the point that they were practically parroting each other.

unfortunately I don't have enough experience with hyrdra. I thought the point was to discuss in your qt and be cohesive. 2 people playing 1 role not on the same page makes it easier to do as scum in my opinion.

it could just be paranoia also but I get scum vibes. i don't know how else to explain it.


I don't really trust anyone on this wagon cause I don't understand why it exists.

ISO Saffron Ghost.

I did. I didn't see anything that bad. creature and wolf are definitely scummier to me.

That said, pisskop hasn't really said much of substance either so I get why people want to keep the pressure on that slot.

how is that opportunstic? Wolf is guilty of it, i don't see saffron doing it

I have completely forgotten about asriel

what I don't get is why if creature thinks that is legitimate, he has ignored wolf who has done it twice now.

makes me think my creature/wolf team is actually right

I want asriel to play the game but they aren't and I don't really see that happening.

what about wolf? do you want him to play the game also?

Did I miss wolf flavor claiming?

If it’s neighbors which it clearly is. Wolf isn’t clear and doesn’t get a pass

I never said I scum read gobbles but nobody is obviously town to me

There are some players who can play really well. Also helps with the right group of town which I’d say this game qualifies. He’s a town lean but nobody is obviously town to me.

I’m paranoid of everyone. It’s in my nature. Probably why I struggle

I sort of feel like if piss was legit he’d be putting up more of a fight. I still don’t understand this wagon but based on his play I guess I can see why people find it scummy.

Looks like he’s going to be the lynch

VOTE: pisskop

Maybe we can lynch creature tomorrow

VOTE: Wolf
Idk what the hammer rule is either but I didn’t even want to be on the wagon. I know that doesn’t gain me any points but I still contend after the flip that I have no idea what it’s based off of. I don’t see how creature was town either.

Wolf was my day 1 read and I see nothing they have done to suggest I’m wrong. I probably should be lynched just go eliminate confusion but I’ll still fight it cause fuck getting lynched.

You really think we would have bused like that?

To be fair one of the games I replaced out of just ended recently and scum bussed day 1 and won the game.

Anything is possible. Gobble could be scum for all we know.

Neither are likely but that’s not a good defense.

So wait. There is a 3p neighborhood? Why did I think there was only two?

I also don’t know why you both agreed you’d be the Nk. I thought for sure gobble was the obvious one.

@gobble I know you think wolf is town but can you point to anything game related (not flavor) to support the read?

Why say that Ethos bus comment is not a good defense when you also bring up a not great defense by saying you didn’t even want to vote Asriel?

I said I probably should be lynched so I’m not actually using it as a defense. Keep up

He could have used the fact that I didn’t want to lynch as a reason. Using the fact I hammered is a weird take is what I’m saying.

I will say whoever did kill creature. Thank you. I mean sucks he was town but he’s a disgusting person as far as I’m concerned

Like you town read wolf for stuff he’s said but he doesn’t post here. He’s contributed nothing

It's a made up rule

I don’t see town making up something to justify a vote. If you are you suck cause I’m going to death tunnel you now.

Well that and the fact you haven’t actually played the game

I think Map is town and townslipped. Kmd tried to derail Piss wagon. I honestly don’t understand how he isn’t yours and Wimpy’s #1 sr? Iirc, wasn’t Map voting Piss?

Townslips can be faked. Map had no reason to vote that slot. That could definitely be a Buss vote. He’s done nothing to indicate he’s town. He’s not scum hunting. He fabricated reason to vote.

I bet money, scum didn’t bus and the only ones other than kmd who were not on Piss wagon are dead. This really isn’t rocket science.

Yeah, never voting Map.

That VC is very misleading though. What did wolf do to catch scum?

I feel like scum would have bussed given that Saffron was the number 1 wagon for the longest time. KMD until the bitter end didn’t want it. I don’t know if scum puts themselves out there at that cost.

If KMD is the vig, Nancy, what does that do to your solve?

I didn’t want it either to be fair

If it was a bus, then it’s Wimpy but I don’t think so. I don’t think scum busses GF, especially with a hardclaimed miller in play.

It’s definitely not me.

I actually thought zenith was cop faking Miller lol

What I don't get is how you can analyze that wagon and think wolf is clear town. can you explain what he did to earn a lock town read?

We are vig, there’s no freaking SK.

Says you. Mod refused to answer when asked earlier in the game. That means it’s a possibility. Not likely but a possibility

But it doesn’t matter. I don’t trust your ability to read people when you can’t even explain why wolf is town.

I’m an evidence based person.

Wolf looks bad for that l-1 vote. It came from nowhere and don’t see any reasoning. The entire wagon is bad.

This post doesn’t exactly look great for you, Wimpy, in light of Piss flip. I still think kmd > you though. I think Map’s iso looks townie.

I already said this day phase that what I said day one still rings true. I have no idea why that wagon happened. Creature was the better lynch.

I don’t play to look good.

Cause you’re probably town and I don’t want you to get a big head and possibly lose the game. You’re making assumptions you shouldn’t

That’s a good point. He’s probably vig but paranoia is a bitch lol

I’m liking Wimpy a bit more - alignment-wise not solving-wise.

what does this mean?

I’ll have to reread but it’s be down to you and kmd and I’m town reading your slot. Once it’s game time though I drop the bias and try to reread each person

I’ll even have to consider if the Miller claim is legit. I mean probably is but I’ll definitely analyze that slot also.

This is assuming I’m alive. Both of you and kmd are alive.

I feel this flips scum though

I’d only kill creature if I was a vig. As scum I’d want him alive to continue the 1v1.

Dude, your reasoning for sr Gobbles, surpasses your reasoning for voting for Wimpy earlier.

well to be fair, i always think one neighbor is scum so that isn't as bad as you make it seem. I got force replaced for trying to get him lynched

Map i voted wimpy and gobble day 1

and asriel

By the way, don't hammer. I'll just flip town at no benefit. Wait a few days and we'd at least have more info when I flip town.

What would we be waiting for? I mean maybe zenith could post something before the day ends but if you were going to provide useful info you would have already.

Anything is possible. I really wasn’t expecting him to pull out a pr claim.

-There was a LOT of noise in Wimpy ISO. Most of which I tried to cut out of the ISO in spoiler above. ^

-Wimpy interactions with creature, asriel, map wolf, woats, and saffron ghost / pisskop all seem off.

-All his reads have been poopy, no offense.

-Been pushing map all game. Why? Because bleh.

-To a lesser extent pushed Creature since early game. Why? Because bleh.

-To an even lesser extent been throwing shade at woats since pretty early. Why? Because bleh. Even after vig claim oh paranoia maybe is sk!

-Creature flipped town, woats is most likely town, and map wolf seems like lynchbait to me.

-Been looking for PRs. Why is wimpy PR hunting?

-Had motive to kill creature.

-Why go after map wolf for being lurky, but ignore asriel, and defend saffron ghost?

-Wimpy rvs votes Saffron then says he'll probably regret it but doesn't care. Weird. Then directly defends saffron in 6 different posts, and also indirectly defends saffron in posts like 339 and 364. Plus also defends pisskop a couple of times.

-Who else in this game have you defended? Mr paranoia nobody is town anybody could be scum even miller claim even the vig who was largely responsible for getting scum lynched D1.

-Seemed to reeeally want to avoid a saffron/pisskop lynch, and then reluctantly voted saffron when it was obvious lynch was unavoidable, for no other reason than because "Looks like he’s going to be the lynch", despite earlier claiming to not sheep others and how he makes up his own mind. Then immediately D2 seems nervous about the flips making him look suspicious. Even claiming to be worried that he would be lynched.

[Zenith]

Creature wanted you to die, and had correctly called out both you and your partner. That's plenty of motive for you to NK creature..

By that logic I’d have killed you too. I’d leave woats alive who was declaring I’m town

Creature alive let’s me continue my death tunnel. As scum I’d never kill him. Never

This is incredibly dumb and if you think if buy this tbh I'm a bit offended. Wanting to be in a deathtunnel makes no sense, deathtunnel massively increases your risk of death and so massively decreases your chances of meeting your win condition.

Self defense is an obvious and valid motive which you can't simply handwave away by saying you wouldn't have rather left him alive so you can deathtunnel.. Wth?

Also, woats was vig, and obvious nk choice..

Are you high or something?

[Zenith]

Him lying about me isn’t ok either. I did debunk his reasons. Just cause he doesn’t like it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen

He could just disagree. You made a defense. Doesn't mean the points he made were definitely wrong. And even if they were it doesn't make you confirmed town either. Town makes inaccurate points against scum all the time. Although if it is debunked youre absolutely right that town-him should reconsider at the very least.

My head hurts.

Him saying I didn’t implies I didn’t do it. Not he disagrees with me.

Look at 1205..
Most of my points you completely fucking ignored.
What you did address was a pathetic defense.

How tf is you saying you wouldn't kill creature as scum in any way debunking the fact that you did indeed have motive to want him removed from the game?

[Zenith]

Him lying about me isn’t ok either. I did debunk his reasons. Just cause he doesn’t like it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen

He could just disagree. You made a defense. Doesn't mean the points he made were definitely wrong. And even if they were it doesn't make you confirmed town either. Town makes inaccurate points against scum all the time. Although if it is debunked youre absolutely right that town-him should reconsider at the very least.

My head hurts.

If he debunked all of my points it would be very easy to at least show that he addressed all of my points made in 1205 but he can't show that because he's being delusional.

Read the thread for yourself, there haven't been that many posts since #1205 so it shouldn't be difficult to see him for the liar he is..

[Zenith]

Omfg

[Zenith]

The lie is him saying he debunked all of my points when they aren't even all addressed ffs..

[Zenith]

As scum though I would want a creature/wimpy tunnel.

Yes me/saffron/pisskop interactions don’t look great but that’s just cause not a single person who cited there had good reasons for it. I definitely felt I had better reasons for creature. Being wrong doesn’t make me scum.

Pretty sure map is flipping scum here anyway and this is all moot.

Hell he fucking agrees with me that his interactions don't look great. sure he tries to excuse it but how tf is agreeing with me debunming me? Wtth do you think debunking means wimpy??

[Zenith]

And how are the rest of us supposed to know your meta well enough for that to be the common sense you're passing it off as?

Preview edit: thats to wimpy about the creature kill.

Zenith, my interactions with safron/pisskop don't look good either. How'd you pick out wimpy over me with such confidence?

Please read the spoiler in #1205.
You didnt rvs vote woats and then saffron and then say you'll probably regret voting for saffron.

Every player should enter mylo/lylo with fresh eyes. Reread everything. He didn’t. That’s a scum claim as far as I’m concerned.

Pretty fresh coming from someone who locked onto all town targets to push since early game.

[Zenith]

Been looking for PRs. Why is wimpy PR hunting?

lol. This is a flat out lie

I don’t know how I missed that earlier but in no way have I been pr hunting

So now you admit to not addressing all my points? Wow..

Also:

It is possible that the bodyguard is a scum role but that would be really weird

unless we have a vig

Did I miss wolf flavor claiming?

I actually thought zenith was cop faking Miller lol

Yea, I'm actually 1 shot bulletproof miller and it seems like you picked up on the one subtle crumb I dropped in an attempt to maybe draw NK.

I'm not sure I understand the case vs Saffron Ghost. Post 122 seems odd, but is it scummy? Nothing else in their ISO pings me as particularly AI, though it's not a very lengthy ISO.

Also, if you could investigate someone tonight, who would it be and why?
@Anyone who wants to answer.

If it was a bus, then it’s Wimpy but I don’t think so. I don’t think scum busses GF, especially with a hardclaimed miller in play.

It’s definitely not me.

woats was almost correct here.

[Zenith]

Anyways, I'm tired of this so going to take a break.

Maybe worth mentioning that if town had listened to me in episode 1 lylo we would have won. Maybe next game I'll be taken a little more seriously.

[Zenith]

Zenith you didn't answer my bussing question. Also why'd you choose to claim Miller right away?

I'm not sure how I feel about bussing. My first game on site i was mafia and bussed which made my partner pissed and it was a mess ive tried to forget. I haven't been mafia since then.

As for why I claimed miller, i just read my role pm and it seemed like the right thing to do, specially since last game i was way more lynch baity, I thought if i didn't claim then chances are high someone from last game would investigate me if they could and that would result in a mess. I didn't know what a miller was until I read my role pm.

[Zenith]

Yea, I'm actually 1 shot bulletproof miller and it seems like you picked up on the one subtle crumb I dropped in an attempt to maybe draw NK.

I didn’t pick up on any crumbs actually. I don’t look for crumbs and I think it’s stupid for people to even crumb.

The bp claim now is a nice touch. Good job

And that question about investing d1.I actually ignored your slot cause I thought you were cop or trying to draw a nk.

You were actually who I would have shot if I was scum.

These 2 posts seem contradictory.

I'm hungry, going to grab some food and watch latest episode of my hero acadamia, then prolly chill out on my new game SAO Hollow realization for a bit. Back after.

[Zenith]

Yea I dunno what else to say here.

From my perspective chance of scum is:
Wiimpy 90%
Gobbles 9%
KMD 1%

[Zenith]

Defended saffron - lie

Really? Really??
I don't understand why you insist on attempting historical revisionism..
I mean I get that there's a shit ton of noise in your iso,

which is one of my points in 1205 which you completely ignored

. Thankfully though, I suffered through it a couple of times and managed to cut out most of the noise, compiling most of the relevant bits into a much more easily readable format, which is there on page 49 in spoiler tags.

Soo anyways, yea.. It's not difficult for me to pull receipts.

Let's see....

tbh even Saffron and Asriel something could have happened with them off the game but doesn't change the fact noposting slots still drag us down.

Hyper posting a bunch of nonsense doesn’t help either. You’ve made the game a chore to read cause you can’t compose your thoughts into a couple of posts. That’s also a scum tactic imo.

I want Saffron to post :/

I want you to post.

How about explain the out of the blue l-1 vote?

And why you did that before posting your reads?

Wolf looks bad for that l-1 vote. It came from nowhere and don’t see any reasoning. The entire wagon is bad.

I was getting kind of impatient with this game and wanted stuff to happen. I don't see anything wrong with a L-1 vote. Now I can't say whether this wagon is a good one or not, but I am on it for a lack of a better alternative atm.

But lurker lynch doesn’t really help solve the game. He’s most likely town who just got bored or more likely an alt who forgot about this game.

You as town should know that’s a terrible lynch

I don’t really get why people scum read saffron. He didn’t do anything scummy. Definitely not nearly scummy as creature.

VOTE: Saffron Ghost

Opportunistic scum imo

Trying to figure out why people are voting. This stands out cause there is nothing in saffron’s iso that supports this.
How exactly was he/she opportunistic?

The fact that saffron has been the only serious wagon shows me town is lazy and scum is probably pushing the wagon.

Where they initially vote I think that’s good for pressure but I don’t know if you can determine alignment.

The second quote I Need to go back and read cause I don’t see where he sidestepped and i don’t understand why saffron not unvoting is a problem.

I mean sure saffron doesn’t look great but I honestly think this may be a case of a poor player who created an alt to hide the fact he is.

Two ok reasons vs two bad ones/no reasons kind of cancel each out. Since creature lied and the other was opportunistic, my gut says this is a scum lead wagon and you/wots could just be wrong.

I still don't understand this wagon.

ISO Saffron Ghost.

I did. I didn't see anything that bad. creature and wolf are definitely scummier to me.

how is that opportunstic? Wolf is guilty of it, i don't see saffron doing it

creature/wolf/woats are all scummier to me

Now let me guess your next move. Maybe you point out on of these quotes where the defense was more subtle, say "thats not defending saffron, thats just me trying to get ppl after someone other than saffron, who i just happen to quote while they were going after saffron. Not a defense, more of a redirection" lol. Whhile ignoring the obvious blatant direct defenses of saffron..

Like:

I don’t really get why people scum read saffron. He didn’t do anything scummy. Definitely not nearly scummy as creature.

I mean sure saffron doesn’t look great but I honestly think this may be a case of a poor player who created an alt to hide the fact he is.

Is also pretty strange how you just can't seem to understand the wagon on saffron, but at the same time you admit that you recognize how "sure saffron doesn't look great".

[Zenith]

Being unsure, having bad reads, and paranoid doesn’t make me scum though. None of those reasons means I’m scum. It just means I suck which is true cause I can’t seem to finish a game and haven’t played mafia in like 3 years.

I avoided the saffron lynch because I didn’t see reasons for it. I said that many times. Nobody had a good reason for voting. Even after the flip, I still contend creature was the better lynch. Saying I haven’t defended anyone else’s is a lie cause I have opposed a kmd lynch and was vocal about that.

As for why I didn’t go after asriel, if you look in my iso I forgot Asriel was even the game. That’s why. Plus wolf was making posts, he just wasn’t scum hunting in them. Lurking was never the reason for wolf. Lack of effort/scum hunting was and to imply it was lurking is disingenuous.

And I did debunk your case. This was my response to your “case”.

You didn’t understand why I scum read creature and wolf that’s fine but nobody brought it up at the time. I had good reasons (for me) to go after creature. Wolf wasn’t trying to find scum. I didn’t even remember asriel was playing and even said that in my iso.

Being wrong doesn’t make me scum.

You also claim I defended saffron which wasn’t true. I never defended him and the PR hunting was a lie. To ask people who to investigate and me thinking you were cop doesn’t mean I was pr hunting. To use that against me is just not fair.

That’s like if I asked “if you were doc who would you save” people would probably assume I’m doc, trying to out the doc, or trying to draw a NK.

On the surface without anything else. You have an ok case. But the thing is there is no substance behind any of your reasons. No progression of your reads. You didn’t try to sort me. You didn’t try to understand during those pushes why I was doing what I was doing.

Nobody did.

If I’m going to be lynched, I can’t really do anything to prevent it but if town is going to lose for my play, at least try to come up with someone better than what boils down to “you played like shit and were wrong” because that’s really all your case is.

My reads and posts have been 100% genuine the entire time and I can honestly say yours wasn’t

Then you don't know what debunking means. Hell you still haven't even address all of my points, much less "debunked" my case.

I also never said that being wrong makes you scum, but nice attempt at a strawman.

And uh.. As i pointed out in my last post, yes you did defend saffron, more than once..

[Zenith]

Gobble I'm not a fan of hammer tests. If we're wrong we are handing the game over to potential scum-you or scum-zenith.

Anyway I was looking over Zenith's ISO to see his push against saffron/pisskop and.... well it's not nearly as much as I thought I'd remembered. He placed the L-1 vote near deadline. So my point that he's probably town because I didn't think he'd bus is kinda...gone.

If i recall correctly, my read on saffron pisskop was pretty null. Credit for that lynch goes to woats, who i was hard town reading and pretty much sheeped there.

[Zenith]

Tl on you and to a lesser extent KMD4390.
Sl on creature. Counter meta might soften that lean if someone other than creature wants to provide any.

Been back and forth on gobbles but overall everyone else is pretty NAI to me so far.

Doesn’t really want to take a stance on people. Leaving people as nai without attempting to sort is scummy to me. It leaves himself open. Scum doesn’t like to lock themselves into reads. They can’t pivot as easily.

That's pretty fresh coming from you.

Until I can sit and read I don’t have any reads. Just skimming though I have two scum reads so I’m not really worried about anyone else RN

I have completely forgotten about asriel

I never said I scum read gobbles but nobody is obviously town to me

You really think we would have bused like that?

To be fair one of the games I replaced out of just ended recently and scum bussed day 1 and won the game.

Anything is possible. Gobble could be scum for all we know.

Neither are likely but that’s not a good defense.

That’s a good point. He’s probably vig but paranoia is a bitch lol

There are some players who can play really well. Also helps with the right group of town which I’d say this game qualifies. He’s a town lean but nobody is obviously town to me.

I’m paranoid of everyone. It’s in my nature. Probably why I struggle

[Zenith]

Me pr hunting is a lie straight up and you have no evidence to suggest it’s true. There’s the last bit of your case

Been looking for PRs. Why is wimpy PR hunting?

lol. This is a flat out lie

I don’t know how I missed that earlier but in no way have I been pr hunting

So now you admit to not addressing all my points? Wow..

Also:

It is possible that the bodyguard is a scum role but that would be really weird

unless we have a vig

Did I miss wolf flavor claiming?

I actually thought zenith was cop faking Miller lol

Yea, I'm actually 1 shot bulletproof miller and it seems like you picked up on the one subtle crumb I dropped in an attempt to maybe draw NK.

I'm not sure I understand the case vs Saffron Ghost. Post 122 seems odd, but is it scummy? Nothing else in their ISO pings me as particularly AI, though it's not a very lengthy ISO.

Also, if you could investigate someone tonight, who would it be and why?
@Anyone who wants to answer.

Yea, I'm actually 1 shot bulletproof miller and it seems like you picked up on the one subtle crumb I dropped in an attempt to maybe draw NK.

I didn’t pick up on any crumbs actually. I don’t look for crumbs and I think it’s stupid for people to even crumb.

The bp claim now is a nice touch. Good job

And that question about investing d1.I actually ignored your slot cause I thought you were cop or trying to draw a nk.

You were actually who I would have shot if I was scum.

These 2 posts seem contradictory.

[Zenith]

reading kmd's iso.

he hints at being a pr early game, usually people see that as town trying to draw a nk, it's similar to what zenith did but more vague. (this is why I thought both of you were PRs btw)

So you admit to looking for prs then?

[Zenith]

post 750 is interesting. he quotes gobble pointing out a pr soft (it's interesting because that shows actual pr hunting yet zenith doesn't bring that up)

Wait, are you saying that you would only be "actual" PR hunting if you had publicly pointed out my crumb? My crumb that you denied then admitted to picking up on?

Why would scum want to publicly point out a crumb. Seems to make more sense to keep this info to themselves, to not appear to be PR hunting. Kind of like what you did.

[Zenith]

this is what I call checkmate my friend.

you can't accuse me of pr hunting, without also accusing gobble.

Lol if you want to openly admit that you are both guilty af, I'm cool with that..
Lul!

[Zenith]

Oh yea, and you've been posting quite a bit since i pulled receipts on you defending saffron. No attempt at rebuttal?

[Zenith]

I NEVER PR HUNTED THIS ENTIRE GAME AND YOU SAYING I DID IS A LIE

It's not a lie, it's an evidence based accusation which you've almost kinda sorta all but admitted to at this point.. Wow..

[Zenith]

G2g to doctor appointment. Bbl

[Zenith]

Defended saffron - lie

Really? Really??
I don't understand why you insist on attempting historical revisionism..
I mean I get that there's a shit ton of noise in your iso,

which is one of my points in 1205 which you completely ignored

. Thankfully though, I suffered through it a couple of times and managed to cut out most of the noise, compiling most of the relevant bits into a much more easily readable format, which is there on page 49 in spoiler tags.

Soo anyways, yea.. It's not difficult for me to pull receipts.

Let's see....

tbh even Saffron and Asriel something could have happened with them off the game but doesn't change the fact noposting slots still drag us down.

Hyper posting a bunch of nonsense doesn’t help either. You’ve made the game a chore to read cause you can’t compose your thoughts into a couple of posts. That’s also a scum tactic imo.

I want Saffron to post :/

I want you to post.

How about explain the out of the blue l-1 vote?

And why you did that before posting your reads?

Wolf looks bad for that l-1 vote. It came from nowhere and don’t see any reasoning. The entire wagon is bad.

I was getting kind of impatient with this game and wanted stuff to happen. I don't see anything wrong with a L-1 vote. Now I can't say whether this wagon is a good one or not, but I am on it for a lack of a better alternative atm.

But lurker lynch doesn’t really help solve the game. He’s most likely town who just got bored or more likely an alt who forgot about this game.

You as town should know that’s a terrible lynch

I don’t really get why people scum read saffron. He didn’t do anything scummy. Definitely not nearly scummy as creature.

VOTE: Saffron Ghost

Opportunistic scum imo

Trying to figure out why people are voting. This stands out cause there is nothing in saffron’s iso that supports this.
How exactly was he/she opportunistic?

The fact that saffron has been the only serious wagon shows me town is lazy and scum is probably pushing the wagon.

Where they initially vote I think that’s good for pressure but I don’t know if you can determine alignment.

The second quote I Need to go back and read cause I don’t see where he sidestepped and i don’t understand why saffron not unvoting is a problem.

I mean sure saffron doesn’t look great but I honestly think this may be a case of a poor player who created an alt to hide the fact he is.

Two ok reasons vs two bad ones/no reasons kind of cancel each out. Since creature lied and the other was opportunistic, my gut says this is a scum lead wagon and you/wots could just be wrong.

I still don't understand this wagon.

ISO Saffron Ghost.

I did. I didn't see anything that bad. creature and wolf are definitely scummier to me.

how is that opportunstic? Wolf is guilty of it, i don't see saffron doing it

creature/wolf/woats are all scummier to me

Now let me guess your next move. Maybe you point out on of these quotes where the defense was more subtle, say "thats not defending saffron, thats just me trying to get ppl after someone other than saffron, who i just happen to quote while they were going after saffron. Not a defense, more of a redirection" lol. Whhile ignoring the obvious blatant direct defenses of saffron..

Like:

I don’t really get why people scum read saffron. He didn’t do anything scummy. Definitely not nearly scummy as creature.

I mean sure saffron doesn’t look great but I honestly think this may be a case of a poor player who created an alt to hide the fact he is.

Is also pretty strange how you just can't seem to understand the wagon on saffron, but at the same time you admit that you recognize how "sure saffron doesn't look great".

Scum reading somebody else and not understanding why people scum read saffron IS NOT DEFENDING SAFFRON

Omg i called it!

Now let me guess your next move. Maybe you point out on of these quotes where the defense was more subtle, say "thats not defending saffron, thats just me trying to get ppl after someone other than saffron, who i just happen to quote while they were going after saffron. Not a defense, more of a redirection" lol. Whhile ignoring the obvious blatant direct defenses of saffron..

[Zenith]

Omg i called it!

yes, you called the truth.

so let me guess. you are going to deny defending saffron now right?

Uhhm, i called that you would focus on the more subtle defense and ignore me calling you out for blatant direct defending saffron which is exactly what you did. You are the one who's been claiming to have not defended saffron, and calling me a liar for saying you have, then focusing on strawman saying the more subtle defenses weren't defenses to avoid being confronted with the more blatant defense, and now you are trying to deflect by basically saying "well you did it too" which is a non defense.

I don’t really get why people scum read saffron. He didn’t do anything scummy. Definitely not nearly scummy as creature.

I mean sure saffron doesn’t look great but I honestly think this may be a case of a poor player who created an alt to hide the fact he is.

How can you read these quotes and act like you never defended him??

[Zenith]

I kinda wish I could get modkilled or something to avoid a repeat of episode 1.

[Zenith]

tbh even Saffron and Asriel something could have happened with them off the game but doesn't change the fact noposting slots still drag us down.

Hyper posting a bunch of nonsense doesn’t help either. You’ve made the game a chore to read cause you can’t compose your thoughts into a couple of posts. That’s also a scum tactic imo.

how is this a defense of saffron? it's not. you said it was a defense.

THIS IS A LIE

Uhm no i didn't say that post was a defense. In my post I included anything which could even remotely maybe be considered a saffron defense, along with examples of blatant direct defense, partially to see how you would react. I even predicted

in the same post ffs

that you would ignore the blatant examples in an attempt to focus solely on the weakest examples, which I included partially for completion sake and partially for this exact purpose.

You scummy af..

And here's my post again:

Spoiler: my post

Defended saffron - lie

Really? Really??
I don't understand why you insist on attempting historical revisionism..
I mean I get that there's a shit ton of noise in your iso,

which is one of my points in 1205 which you completely ignored

. Thankfully though, I suffered through it a couple of times and managed to cut out most of the noise, compiling most of the relevant bits into a much more easily readable format, which is there on page 49 in spoiler tags.

Soo anyways, yea.. It's not difficult for me to pull receipts.

Let's see....

tbh even Saffron and Asriel something could have happened with them off the game but doesn't change the fact noposting slots still drag us down.

Hyper posting a bunch of nonsense doesn’t help either. You’ve made the game a chore to read cause you can’t compose your thoughts into a couple of posts. That’s also a scum tactic imo.

I want Saffron to post :/

I want you to post.

How about explain the out of the blue l-1 vote?

And why you did that before posting your reads?

Wolf looks bad for that l-1 vote. It came from nowhere and don’t see any reasoning. The entire wagon is bad.

I was getting kind of impatient with this game and wanted stuff to happen. I don't see anything wrong with a L-1 vote. Now I can't say whether this wagon is a good one or not, but I am on it for a lack of a better alternative atm.

But lurker lynch doesn’t really help solve the game. He’s most likely town who just got bored or more likely an alt who forgot about this game.

You as town should know that’s a terrible lynch

I don’t really get why people scum read saffron. He didn’t do anything scummy. Definitely not nearly scummy as creature.

VOTE: Saffron Ghost

Opportunistic scum imo

Trying to figure out why people are voting. This stands out cause there is nothing in saffron’s iso that supports this.
How exactly was he/she opportunistic?

The fact that saffron has been the only serious wagon shows me town is lazy and scum is probably pushing the wagon.

Where they initially vote I think that’s good for pressure but I don’t know if you can determine alignment.

The second quote I Need to go back and read cause I don’t see where he sidestepped and i don’t understand why saffron not unvoting is a problem.

I mean sure saffron doesn’t look great but I honestly think this may be a case of a poor player who created an alt to hide the fact he is.

Two ok reasons vs two bad ones/no reasons kind of cancel each out. Since creature lied and the other was opportunistic, my gut says this is a scum lead wagon and you/wots could just be wrong.

I still don't understand this wagon.

ISO Saffron Ghost.

I did. I didn't see anything that bad. creature and wolf are definitely scummier to me.

how is that opportunstic? Wolf is guilty of it, i don't see saffron doing it

creature/wolf/woats are all scummier to me

Now let me guess your next move. Maybe you point out on of these quotes where the defense was more subtle, say "thats not defending saffron, thats just me trying to get ppl after someone other than saffron, who i just happen to quote while they were going after saffron. Not a defense, more of a redirection" lol. Whhile ignoring the obvious blatant direct defenses of saffron..

Like:

I don’t really get why people scum read saffron. He didn’t do anything scummy. Definitely not nearly scummy as creature.

I mean sure saffron doesn’t look great but I honestly think this may be a case of a poor player who created an alt to hide the fact he is.

Is also pretty strange how you just can't seem to understand the wagon on saffron, but at the same time you admit that you recognize how "sure saffron doesn't look great".

Scum reading somebody else and not understanding why people scum read saffron IS NOT DEFENDING SAFFRON

Omg i called it!

Now let me guess your next move. Maybe you point out on of these quotes where the defense was more subtle, say "thats not defending saffron, thats just me trying to get ppl after someone other than saffron, who i just happen to quote while they were going after saffron. Not a defense, more of a redirection" lol. Whhile ignoring the obvious blatant direct defenses of saffron..

[Zenith]

How can you read these quotes and act like you never defended him??

You did essentially the same thing. So why is it scum for me but town for you?

This is a deflection..

If I use zenith’s flawed definition of defending. Then yes I defended. So did he. So did kmd.

Since I use a more accurate definition of defending. I didn’t defend him.

Zenith town can’t be selective in this accusation. He can’t somehow clear kmd and act like he’s free from scrutiny

How is my definition flawed? In what twisted world are these quotes not you defending saffron?

I don’t really get why people scum read saffron. He didn’t do anything scummy. Definitely not nearly scummy as creature.

I mean sure saffron doesn’t look great but I honestly think this may be a case of a poor player who created an alt to hide the fact he is.

???????

[Zenith]

Plus after woats explained the case vs saffron i was happy to sheep, where as you were reluctant.

Your the only reasoning you ever game for eventually turning on saffron/pisskop was because:

I sort of feel like if piss was legit he’d be putting up more of a fight. I still don’t understand this wagon but based on his play I guess I can see why people find it scummy.

Looks like he’s going to be the lynch

Hell, after the lynch you even said:

I feel like scum would have bussed given that Saffron was the number 1 wagon for the longest time. KMD until the bitter end didn’t want it. I don’t know if scum puts themselves out there at that cost.

If KMD is the vig, Nancy, what does that do to your solve?

I didn’t want it either to be fair

Kmd defended him also.

How can 2 be town and one be scum? Why isn’t that standard applied equally?

I'm not sure I understand the case vs Saffron Ghost. Post 122 seems odd, but is it scummy? Nothing else in their ISO pings me as particularly AI, though it's not a very lengthy ISO.

defending saffron

I thought saffron was mostly NAI

defending saffron

Just saying

If you say this isn’t defending. You can’t say what I did was.

Hypocrite

You are the ONLY player in this game who has hard defended saffron and then repeatedly lied about it, wanting to pretend it never happened.

[Zenith]

I don’t know why you’re arguing with me. You’ve ignored kmd’s request who should be conf.town to you.

What request?

The town conf is nice but not really helpful considering kmd was my strongest town read anyways.

[Zenith]

If you say this isn’t defending. You can’t say what I did was.

Hypocrite

More deflection. I'm not scum reading you because of defending saffron.

[Zenith]

Piss off. You’re so locked in on mislynching me and won’t admit that three people “defended” saffron (your definition not mine) yet I’m scum for it and nobody else is.

Go find the post yourself.

Again, You are the ONLY player in this game who has hard defended saffron and then repeatedly lied about it, wanting to pretend it never happened.

[Zenith]

Piss off. You’re so locked in on mislynching me and won’t admit that three people “defended” saffron (your definition not mine) yet I’m scum for it and nobody else is.

Go find the post yourself.

How can you read these quotes and act like you never defended him??

You did essentially the same thing. So why is it scum for me but town for you?

This is a deflection..

If I use zenith’s flawed definition of defending. Then yes I defended. So did he. So did kmd.

Since I use a more accurate definition of defending. I didn’t defend him.

Zenith town can’t be selective in this accusation. He can’t somehow clear kmd and act like he’s free from scrutiny

How is my definition flawed? In what twisted world are these quotes not you defending saffron?

I don’t really get why people scum read saffron. He didn’t do anything scummy. Definitely not nearly scummy as creature.

I mean sure saffron doesn’t look great but I honestly think this may be a case of a poor player who created an alt to hide the fact he is.

???????

Please explain what your definition of defending is and how your definition of defending makes posts 432 and 445 not defending saffron.

[Zenith]

I'm not scum reading you because of defending saffron.

That’s in your case so this is a lie

You are the one wanting to make it the focus of my case in order to distract from my actual case.

You seem desperate to attack only the weakest link and act like you've somehow debunked my entire case. As demonstrated when I intentionally included a weak link and you honed in right onto it to the exclusion of the actual points against you, even despite my predicting you would do exactly that.

You still haven't responded to me asking you what tf do you think debunking means btw.

But yea, you can't continue to deny defending saffron in the face of blatant evidence to the contrary, so you are forced to do this weird tapdance around the issue, attacking strawman(the intentionally included weak point as predicted), playing with semantics and definitions, and deflecting by pointing finger elsewhere, anything to avoid actually facing reality.. Anything to avoid acknowledging/admiting that you have been caught repeatedly telling lies about you not defending saffron.

[Zenith]

Where did I argue he’s town? Where did I argue the reasons people voted?

One last time.

Have a great weekend everyone

How about here:

I don’t really get why people scum read saffron. He didn’t do anything scummy. Definitely not nearly scummy as creature.

I mean sure saffron doesn’t look great but I honestly think this may be a case of a poor player who created an alt to hide the fact he is.

Or here:

Wolf looks bad for that l-1 vote. It came from nowhere and don’t see any reasoning. The entire wagon is bad.

I was getting kind of impatient with this game and wanted stuff to happen. I don't see anything wrong with a L-1 vote. Now I can't say whether this wagon is a good one or not, but I am on it for a lack of a better alternative atm.

But lurker lynch doesn’t really help solve the game. He’s most likely town who just got bored or more likely an alt who forgot about this game.

You as town should know that’s a terrible lynch

Oh and here:

VOTE: Saffron Ghost

Opportunistic scum imo

Trying to figure out why people are voting. This stands out cause there is nothing in saffron’s iso that supports this.
How exactly was he/she opportunistic?

Here too:

ISO Saffron Ghost.

I did. I didn't see anything that bad. creature and wolf are definitely scummier to me.

And I'll throw in this one too because it's not as blatantly obvious. You know, just to see if you focus solely on this one quote to the exclusion of the others, or if maybe you've learned better by now:

The fact that saffron has been the only serious wagon shows me town is lazy and scum is probably pushing the wagon.

[Zenith]

Are you trying to say that your definition of defending saffron would be arguing that he's town and/or arguing against other people's reasoning for voting?

Are you then also going to claim that none of your posts I quoted in #1547 fit with that description?

[Zenith]

I guess you are.. Wow..

[Zenith]

None of those show me saying he’s town or that I even town read him. So...

You literally said and I quote: "He’s most likely town who just got bored or more likely an alt who forgot about this game."

Are you not reading my posts?

[Zenith]

You and I do similar things. You can’t use that as a reason.

Add a third person into the mix who now is confirmed town to you and you lost your credibility

More deflection. Please respond to:

None of those show me saying he’s town or that I even town read him. So...

You literally said and I quote: "He’s most likely town who just got bored or more likely an alt who forgot about this game."

Are you not reading my posts?

None of those show me saying he’s town or that I even town read him. So...

You literally said and I quote: "He’s most likely town who just got bored or more likely an alt who forgot about this game."

Are you not reading my posts?

Ok one post where I said most likely on day one when I thought two other people were scum.

You caught me.



That’s not hard defending by my definition.

Are you high??

You just said:

Are you trying to say that your definition of defending saffron would be arguing that he's town and/or arguing against other people's reasoning for voting?

Are you then also going to claim that none of your posts I quoted in #1547 fit with that description?

Yes cause that’s what defending somebody is.

You asked me to show you saying he's town, then I quote you calling him town, and now you saying it's not your definition??

Wtf wow.. I've never seen such an insane level of mental gymnastics outside of religious apologists..

[Zenith]

What’s going on with this site and personal insults. No I’m not high.

That’s the 2nd time you’ve personally insulted me asking if I’m high. Knock it the fuck off

It's not an insukt. Is a legit question in response to incredibly bizarre play.

I was trying to figure out why he wasn’t posting. Typically people who don’t post are town who are bored.

You’re really twisting things here but I’ll concede that technically I said he’s most likely town but that’s not the same as what I consider a hard defense but to prevent the semantics argument. Technically one instance.

I’m still town. I’m not even going to respond to you anymore and this time I mean it. You and creature can both piss off for crossing the line.

I'm not twisting shit. It's not my fault that when I use your definition and quote your own words that you don't make sense.

[Zenith]

So if gobble is scum this game is unwinnable.

VOTE: gobbledygook
Happy?
Idc anymore..

[Zenith]

I am a 1 shot bulletproof miller. It's not a fake claim. That's what it says on my role pm, and that's why I played the way I did. That's why I decided to claim in my first post of the game. It's why I tried playing a more passive early game than in episode 1, and it's also why I crumbled investigative.

----

Spoiler: @GhostWoats

I was just discussing with eth0s that based on Zenith’s role, there is likely a cop in this setup, which would correspond with either alignment cop/loyal/disloyal modiifier and since I tr Zenith > Piss, he’s more likely than not a scum watcher, because in last game, there was a town role cop and scum tracker and Zenith’s role doesn’t fit with town watcher.

Took me a while to figure out but I think he means you.

Well, misreading me definitely didn’t help convince me. Think about it. We have a miller, a confirmed bg who is most likely town. It’s extremely unlikely we also have a town watcher as well, because it doesn’t fit with miller.

If we have an investigative, it’s probably an alignment cop, not a watcher.

It has to fit with Zenith’s role so anything with loyal/disloyal modifiers/ desperado/hider/visitor can fit but watcher does not.

On the topic of Zenith, the miller claim makes a LOT of sense given a cop and GF flip. His tone here is impeccably town, and if he's faking it as scum, kudos to him because I do not ever see lynching/killing him to be a good idea. For all intents and purposes I have him locktowned.

@GhostWoats
I'd like to take a brief moment to hand out some well earned kudos. You may have read Map incorrectly, resulting in some pretty nightmarish flavor text from Radja, but you were spot on about me and saffron/pisskop. I'm glad we were able to correctly trust each other this game since pretty early on, because there's no way I'd have worked out the setup spec for saffron/pisskop scum on my own. IMO was an impressive read, and happy to have sheeped it.

Unfortunately, I also feel the need to apologize, because it seems like I'm destined to continue sucking at mylo/lylo, when I most need to not suck.. I really feel like Wimpy is scum here, but he has pinged my scumdar so hard lately that my scumdar may be overloaded and short-circuiting. I think gobbles might have been coasting for a while on an early townlean, so I'll take a good hard look at him soon just in case, and try to use my best judgement. Is about all I can do. =\

Maybe in the future I should try to find a way to increase my chances of being NKed. Specially my usual lynch-baity self probably doesn't belong in mylo/lylo.

----

Since you guys don't seem very familiar with me, maybe it could be helpful to introduce myself a bit, and let the confirmed town Episode 1 Zenith say a few things. So here's some direct quotes from town me:

For the record, i still think the case vs amrun was trash. Regardless of alignment i tend to try avoiding lying as much as possible. So when I'm telling you things, those are my honest thoughts and opinions. Even as scum typically the only thing I'll tend to lie about is my alignment, and I'll avoid doing that unless I feel a need to because I've an aversion to dishonesty.

If I push someone, I may or may not be scum reading them, but either way I'm probably trying to improve my read on someone.

Btw: "Amrun, Tom Park, Criminal Tracker, shot and killed(lynched) day 2"


Also:

Pre-in for episode 2.

Hope that doesn't put anyone else off. I'll try to be less abrasive so hopefully avoid another D1 tvt death tunnel. I'm still likely to be lynch bait though.

I'm on record as being intentionally lynch-baity, regardless of my alignment. It's a recurring theme, and is kind of my signature move.. <_>



"Enter, Trevor Price, odd-night cop, knocked out(lynched) day 1"
Here's my reaction to Enter flipping town, after he was lynched during our D1 TvT death tunnel which I tried repeatedly to find a way out of, wanting to give some time for both sides to cool off, but somehow I kept getting dragged back into:

Well, I definitely didn't see that coming.. Kind of shocked that an important PR would derp tunnel me like that, considering he could have backed off and investigated me.

I'm Chet Gray, partner of Lewis Robson. I'm VT, nothing special about me. If I'd rolled PR, I would have probably been way lurkier D1.

^ If you don't detect intentional lynch-baity-ness from me, most likely it's because I'm either a PR, or faking being a PR. ^

Oh and btw, I'll probably be lynch bait in the next game also.

Calling it now.

^ I pre-joined this game fully intending to play my typical lynch-bait style, though also wanting to be less abrasive, in the hopes of avoiding another TvT death tunnel. But when I saw my role, I thought my usual style might not be the best idea, so changed my mind. ^

Im trying to understand how no possible scum roles could have made for a balanced setup. I don't know how many times i have to say that setup spec isn't one of my strengths.

^ To me it seemed like the case vs Amrun was mostly if not entirely setup speculation, so setup speculation was a heavily discussed topic. Over and over again I tried to make it super clear, in not just episode 1 but also in most if not all of my games so far, that I'm horrible at setup speculation. Not because I can't recognize powerlevels, but because I'm willfully largely ignorant of the pool of potential roles.

Just a personal choice/opinion, but think it's more fun to learn the roles by encountering them firsthand. I like being surprised by new roles for the first time. I'm also not the kind of person to go reading any kind of guides on how to play this game. Would much rather figure things out on my own over time, from direct experience and interacting with the other players in my games.


Anyways, you don't have to believe me, but I really had no idea what a miller was before I read my role PM.



I'd like to take a good hard look at gobbles, but I'm not feeling well right now. Hopefully I'll feel better tomorrow and can do a thorough re-read then, but right now I'm just not my best and between the sudden nausea and headache, deep thought doesn't sound very appealing to me atm.

[Zenith]

Not sure why you’re waiting for me. I’m already voting and I’m not changing. So we lynch him or we NL by not lynching somebody.

If kmd was scum game would be over. I really can’t see gobble bussing. Zenith’s case is full of lies and contradictions. Him saying he tried to be honest yet has lied at least twice is hilarious.

Finally Bp Miller with everything else just doesn’t fit to me.

My case is full of lies and contradictions? Wtf? What lies and contradictions..?

Your the one who be all like..

I never defended saffron . I didn't defend saffron! Ok well maaaaybe i defended him but only if we use your definition of defending. What's my definition? My narrow definition of defending saffron would be if I had called him town, so where did I call him town? Oh, well i guess i did call him town, but that's not my definition of defending..


And you call my case lies and contradictions? Ffs please take a deep calming breath, turn off that backfire effect and take a good hard unbiased look at yourself and the situation..

I'm still not feeling well. Taking the day off.

[Zenith]

Not going to sit around arguing with scum though so I’ll just be hanging out waiting for you to hammer him.

I'M
NOT
SCUM

[Zenith]

And if you aren't scum, then gobble is.

[Zenith]

So if gobble is scum this game is unwinnable.

I guess so.

[Zenith]

I hope you realize that i am currently still voting for gobbles and not you..

[Zenith]

Don't act like you are willing to be reasonable if you aren't.

If you think my role is somehow scummy, well I dunno personally how to argue setup spec because I'm weak in that area. However woats seems pretty good with setup spec, and not only did they use my role help in their setup spec to find scum, but they also town locked me.

I was just discussing with eth0s that based on Zenith’s role, there is likely a cop in this setup, which would correspond with either alignment cop/loyal/disloyal modiifier and since I tr Zenith > Piss, he’s more likely than not a scum watcher, because in last game, there was a town role cop and scum tracker and Zenith’s role doesn’t fit with town watcher.

Took me a while to figure out but I think he means you.

Well, misreading me definitely didn’t help convince me. Think about it. We have a miller, a confirmed bg who is most likely town. It’s extremely unlikely we also have a town watcher as well, because it doesn’t fit with miller.

If we have an investigative, it’s probably an alignment cop, not a watcher.

It has to fit with Zenith’s role so anything with loyal/disloyal modifiers/ desperado/hider/visitor can fit but watcher does not.

On the topic of Zenith, the miller claim makes a LOT of sense given a cop and GF flip. His tone here is impeccably town, and if he's faking it as scum, kudos to him because I do not ever see lynching/killing him to be a good idea. For all intents and purposes I have him locktowned.

[Zenith]

I'm going back to bed now. =\

[Zenith]

Pre-in for episode 3

Maaaybe.. People will take me more seriously next time.
Probably not.
=(

[Zenith]

Sad that nobody would believe me about wimpy..

[Zenith]

I'm also never want to play more than 1 game at a time again..

[Zenith]

Sad that nobody would believe me about wimpy..

I did believe you about Wimpy. That’s why I said we should hammer test me and then you. Then you claimed BP Miller. That wasn’t your fault though.

I will say, this town killed an entire family. At least I’m not an orphan.

If you believed me then why not vote scum?

[Zenith]

How many episodes will there be?