Micro 948: Noughts and Crosses Blitz [Game over!]

[Clover Ebi]

Coming up with a joke on the spot is cruel! Has anyone tried the VOTE: T-bone steak recently?

[Clover Ebi]

Is it bad the first thing that ran through my mind when I saw this set up was if it was optimal to lynch the innocent child?

[Clover Ebi]

I don't really think the chart has anything to do with Blairs alignment. You could talk about how one side has more detail than the other, but the likely thing is she just made it pre-game.
pedit: Fair enough. The answer I came to is it's only optimal if a lot of the town agrees on a certain pair probably being scum, but if that's the case you just lynch them.

[Clover Ebi]

I think a better question to discuss would be how much should we let the game influence our choice making? Like if you scumread someone in a less optimal sqaure would you go for someone else you're less sure on if they had a better square for us to lynch? Or should you play this like normal mafia.

[Clover Ebi]

I mean you could be right and this is her trying to get credit and look townie by giving us both sides, but I think realistically this isn't something we can really push and if Blair is scum this isn't gonna be the selling point.
pedit: Well that sounds nice, it's rare for town to agree on poe even though I would love the idea of it. I think mafia has the advantage of being very read flexible because of this game, I just wanna take that away from them.

[Clover Ebi]

They say the best way to stop disasters is to prevent it from happening in the first place. I think clarifying why posting the chart is NAI so people won't push Blair for it is a good starting point. We can leave RVS at any time. At least, I think so...

[Clover Ebi]

Thank goodness I have a real scumread now, I was worried with all these slight townreads I was getting awkwardly shuffling on my feet on what to do.

Spoiler:

tbh i came in thinking we were just going to play optimal noughts and crosses, but there's some good points being raised. is the best way to find mafia and "not lose" at noughts and crosses then?

Kanna, which posts/points specifically changed your view? I'm a bit suspicious that you speak about these 'good points' vaguely as opposed to directly

I think realistically this isn't something we can really push and if Blair is scum this isn't gonna be the selling point.

this phrasing also pinged me, because it sounds like Clover Ebi is thinking more about what is acceptable to push/sell instead of what may be indicative of alignment

as of this post, Maxwell AND rozyroz were both last seen online at 6:09 pm PST (my time), which was after day start at 5:50 PST, yet neither posted in the thread.

it's a little weird that they were both last online at literally the same minute, I'm wondering if that has to do with how the forum checks for activity, but regardless, both can be charged with seeing their day start PM and electing not to post in the thread! I find this suspicious!

VOTE: maxwell

I feel like these posts by Guilty don't feel like genuine attempts to find scum. It feels like he's nitpicking and trying to find reasons to scumread people. Heck, the last post you can't really even defend against. Really the only post here I can somewhat nod at is the one against myself. Kanna and Max/Roz just feels off to me. Dunnstrals reaction to T-bone rubbed me the wrong way as well, but maybe I just don't like how defensive it was.

[Clover Ebi]

Oh I should VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Clover Ebi]

Why do you feel like they're not genuine? I fully agree they are nitpicky, but it is early game. Finding reasons to scumread people is exactly what town should be doing!

I strongly disagree with this philosophy as a whole. I think everyone is town until proven otherwise. But even then, finding reasons for why people are scum is fine, but it feels like the reasons you're coming up with are reaches. I think the best way to put it is I don't think someone would have their expectations as high as you're acting like they are. Thinking Kanna is sus because she didn't say what those good points are right away or, the fact two people didn't post in a game right away. One of those points you can't even make a defense for. It's...off to me.

The "somewhat nod at is the one against myself" feels hilariously self-conscious scum. If you're town you should not find any reasoning against you to be good! Believable maybe, but why would you agree that your own posting is suspicious, instead of trying to correct me for why it is not?

This isn't what I was saying at all. The post against myself is something I can nod at because I understand it and the thought behind it, even if your reasoning is off in the first place. I don't think my posting is suspicious obviously. The post you made is 'true' that I was trying to stop people from making any type of scumread on Blair for her chart, that's why I can nod along. Do I think that's bad or AI? No, but that's not for me to decide.

It feels like he's nitpicking and trying to find reasons to scumread people

on this, I would also point you to see how I did not escalate or push further once Kanna gave me satisfying explanation! I think she is more likely town than scum after our exchange

While that is all fine and dandy that doesn't take away from your previous actions. Just because you call someone town doesn't mean the actions leading up to that townread can't be seen as off right?

Dunnstrals reaction to T-bone rubbed me the wrong way as well, but maybe I just don't like how defensive it was.

I also do not like this hedge! Do you see yourself voting Dunnstral today or not? Take a stand sir, this feels like giving yourself room to vote there later!

And what is wrong with having a hedge? I don't like a post by Dunnstral so I'm going to wait and see more of his posting. So in theory, yes you could say I am 'giving myself room' as you say. Taking a solid stand at the moment would simply be a lie and I see no reasn to pretend I have a solid stand on a player. Not all people can just get a read that easily.

[Clover Ebi]

Townreading one other corner while putting up some kind of scumread that the other two slots can't defend against as well. Am I the only one getting bad vibes from this whole thing? If I am, I'll back off so do let me know.

[Clover Ebi]

I didn't mind his scumread on the absent slots. It is difficult to defend against, but the absence of a reasonable defense doesn't make it a bad case - just an unfortunate case to have leveled against you.

I see, I just don't really like how he's trying to paint something that seems entirely NAI as scummy. The only way this would turn into a point with merit in my eyes is if GuiltyLion had meta history on either of the slots pointing to them not enjoying scum, but even then other reasons can come up for not wanting to post in a game.

Whose expectations are you referring to, mine? And what about these "expectations" is not likely to come from a town!GuiltyLion?

What you expect from other people who are town. Posting reasons right away, checking your role pm and instantly posting. This even further proves my point in the same exact post you made.

Please do not handwave reasoning with vague meaningless statements like "this is off", that is how scum like to push mislynches!

This is just, well...wrong. Mafia isn't as black or white as you're trying to make it out to be. Just as the things you're trying to push as scummy are NAI at

best.

Can scum make simple statements like "this is off" yes, of course they can. But so can town. In fact scum are more to play in the perfect manner you're trying to judge people on than town! It's not suspicious if someone didn't fully explain something in one post. Nor is it suspicious if someone didn't post right away. As I said before, I think the bottom line is you're trying to make things out to be scummy that are by no means even close to being so.

Ah but that's not at all why I pushed you? I said the specific phrasing you used when you talked about why we can't scumread Blair made it sound like your mindset was thinking in terms of justified reasons to push someone moreso than justified reasons to evaluate Blair's alignment.

It's actually a similar problem I have with your push on me! You say my reasons are "reaches", but that does not mean that I do not believe they are valid reasons to pressure people! If my beliefs are genuine, I am town, regardless of whether they're "justifiable" or not.

Of course, no matter how wild and insane a theory is, if the actions of the player are something that are genuine and come from good faith it's much more important than what the theory is in the first place. However, I don't get that from you because the way you're acting and pushing is something I would expect from someone brand new at mafia. Not this!

If you don't have a read, why are you taking a "wait and see" approach instead of talking to Dunnstral directly yourself? Why throw out some vague shade but not bother to actually engage with or pressure Dunnstral?

Because I had/have nothing to say to Dunnstral. I saw no reason to ask him a baseless question that wouldn't help with my read on him All I want is for him to post more, and obviously he will.

Townreading one other corner while putting up some kind of scumread that the other two slots can't defend against as well. Am I the only one getting bad vibes from this whole thing? If I am, I'll back off so do let me know.

Why are you speaking for Maxwell and Rozyroz? They are entirely capable of defending themselves once they start playing!

I'm speaking about you here? I'm not defending them at all. I'm saying your stances are how I as a corner player would apporch this game as scum. Okay well, I didn't say that but It is.

[Clover Ebi]

Clover, I will also engage you on this front:

If I can show you many, many, many, town games where I, as town, pressure people within the first 3 pages for "reaches" or molehills, and additionally

get flak

for doing so much like you are doing here, will you concede that your point is NAI? Because I am confident that a simple meta search will back me up here

No this wouldn't really change my read on you.

Jeez I thought joining a smaller game would be less work than the larger one but I should've known from playing on MU how wrong I was

[Clover Ebi]

Townreading one other corner while putting up some kind of scumread that the other two slots can't defend against as well. Am I the only one getting bad vibes from this whole thing? If I am, I'll back off so do let me know.

One quick thing before I get into this: Why would you back off just because nobody agrees with you? This makes it seem like you're looking for support, rather than having a real conviction.

Because this is a game of teamwork. If enough people told me I was simply tunneling and that I was wrong I want to be told so I can back off and rethink. You can have as much conviction or confidence in a read as you want, but that doesn't mean you get results.

[Clover Ebi]

I ammmm willing to reconsider Clover I think

not a fan of you casting me as a newbie tho I'll have you know I have played an

extensive

amount of games here over 5 years thank you

I haven't liked maxwell's posts so far

I'm not calling you a newbie! I just think your entire viewpoint on how people would play is something I would expect from one. If that makes sense.

Post 90 rings really weird to me mostly because of him saying before that he purposely waited for RVS to end. I guess I would assume he'd be more considerate? Yes a lot of the posters are filler like he explained, but he himself knew this. I honestly would've liked it better if he just said he didn't have a read on a few slots because it was mostly filler. Maybe it was pressure to get a reads list going? I could be looking into this too much. I am looking forward to seeing who these strong townreads are and strategy though. If Max is scum he's basically forcing himself into a really odd spot.

I ammmm willing to reconsider Clover I think

not a fan of you casting me as a newbie tho I'll have you know I have played an

extensive

amount of games here over 5 years thank you

I haven't liked maxwell's posts so far

Who has played with GuiltyLion before? I have a question.

If GuiltyLion is scum, being perceived as a newbie when he is not is objectively an advantage - being underestimated where you are competent and overestimated where you are not is strategically ideal (insert vapid Tsun Zhu reference here).

GuiltyLion throws that advantage away here, ostensibly to defend his reputation as an experienced player.

Is GuiltyLion the kind of player who looks a gift horse in the mouth? I'm discounting all the WIFOM-fuel answers here in favor of either A.) he is not the sort of player who believes being underestimated is an advantage, or B.) he is that sort of player, but didn't mind tossing that advantage in the garbage here because he's town and doesn't care about that sort of thing.

(If the answer really is "C.) he knows it's an advantage but tossed it aside here for the even greater advantage of being townread by Blair for doing so" then please don't even answer - I don't need that kind of stress)

Did everyone take my post about Lion calling him a newbie? I guess I need to explain better.

[Clover Ebi]

Right now no one pops out at me as suspicious. This will probably change soon and I'm open to hearing any evidence. My opinion right now is that we should lynch someone in a corner and of there is no way to know which corner to lynch as none of those players have said anything.
VOTE: GuiltyLion
Their name must make them guilty

How much of the game did you read when making this post? If all of it, who are your stronger townreads?

I see Blair has already made the same point as myself in post 111 neato.

The excuse in 82 is very strange. You make such ugly noises when you overexplain, maxwell.

Well, it's the truth and I can't help it. The fact is I wasn't concerned with appearing active and wanted to wait until there was something more to comment on.

If I'm being less reactionary Maxwell put up a blanket 'this person is fillery' read for everyone who wasn't talking about mechanics

If anything, the opposite? I said over-discussion of the tic tac toe mechanics be rather empty. I do have a strategy in mind for what people should do but posting mostly about board mechanics feels rather empty, a way to talk without advancing the game state.

And finally, I hate *most* of this post and I can't quite put my finger on why (basically all the quick thoughts). Probably hanging several "player X, Y, and Z are devoid of content" while being devoid of content. Self-awareness not being shown at this point. But they are quick thoughts? IDK.

I don't that's true, I at least tried to evaluate everyone I could even if my reads weren't particularly strong.


Gutfeel of noobtown from rozyroz's opening posts.

Is it bad I like this? I don't know, combined with the fact that everyone is kinda open to max dying and him doubling down I get bad feelings. Although this would go against my entire theory in the first place.

[Clover Ebi]

I'm getting too lost in thinking of lynch combos and night kills when I should just focus on the game itself at the moment. Mostly because this talk on all the plans makes me think of all the ways it can go wrong.

[Clover Ebi]

It leads me back to my first post on how influenced will people be by the other wincon. Do you think Maxwell is trying to lynch someone he townreads is genuine or just an excuse to get a ML off banking on the fact we won't lynch him? Honestly, I can see a world where GL/Max fits the bill, but I think I want Max to flip the most out of the four squares. The only real appeal I see in lynching Roy is we're killing the bottom row whereas I can see both the people next to me flipping scum. Wait, that would lead to my own death. Well I guess that's okay but yeah let me get some coffee

[Clover Ebi]

Actually don't terribly see a need to vote at this point in time, I think my words are enough to get my views across and the vote should be more about the optimal play rather than anything else. I still find dunnstral somewhat suspicious, although his posts on the last page are a little bit better, and lynching him day 1 is obviously optimal for me, but I'm not arrogant enough to include myself in my own survivor pool especially when it seems most of the game doesn't townread me. I'm perfectly okay with putting myself in line for elimination as it means I'll flip town and hopefully my views will be trusted - There's 7 other players and I should at least be able to pick out 2 as town.

The problem with this is we don't know if you're town at the moment. So you picking out two other town might be good for you, it isn't helpful for us. Plus putting yourself up for a lynch is awful if you're thinking pure row base. Which should only be used to help with night kills not win us the game imo.

A lack of adaptability...is a lack of survivability. Survival is not based on who is the strongest or the smartest. It comes down to who can adapt.

I see several that have failed.

I get that you're playing a character but I strongly agree with this

..But yes, it definitely did come across that way. You explicitly compared his play to newbie play, but that's not the main reason - it's because your responses to him felt very... teachy? Educational? You were talking to him like you felt you needed to explain the game to him.

Wait really?! That wasn't my intent at all. Now I feel bad hopefully I cleared it up

What about maxwell's post did you like?

Max feels like he's playing to get the game solved than survive is my main worry with lynching him. Like if max is scum he's trying to set up his partner here not live.

[Clover Ebi]

I think my main problem is I only have 2 good townreads at the moment. (Being Blair and T-bone) I think if Max is scum his plan is to set up Guilty who is still my biggest scumread.

[Clover Ebi]

What don't you like about Blair and T-bone?

[Clover Ebi]

What don't you like about Blair and T-bone?

Now that they've posted more that is.

[Clover Ebi]

Actually yeah Clover, why is T Bone your top townread? You haven't really mentioned him until now

T-bones first post seems like something he just doesn't need to say as scum. Along with the fact I don't really see much of an agenda in his posting. The biggest qip I can really give to him is he's blending in. But I'd make that same statement to 3 other people here.

Max feels like he's playing to get the game solved than survive is my main worry with lynching him. Like if max is scum he's trying to set up his partner here not live.

this is exactly why Max is town

Why are you townreading Blair?

Blair has made exact posts I would've made before I did. I just agree with a lot of her thought process and like the way she's handling the game.

Guilty who is still my biggest scumread.

also not really following how I'm still your biggest scumread at this point

like if you step back and take a look at the game in the objective sense I've done much more to try to sort and solve than well over half the players in this game

I will admit my worry about you is if this is just a playstyle clash and you really are just, town. Hence why I'm not really trying to push your slot very hard. The better way to put it is I see reasons why you'd be scum over others.

[Clover Ebi]

Everyone wants to lynch the row I feel the most...well almost nothing about. Dunnstral is Null Roy is Null and Cat is someone I wouldn't mind lynching but mostly because nothing they say is impressive so that's also a shade of null. I just want them to all do something more. It's very easy for scum to just be in that row and I'm considering the two slots beside me as partners because they're posting. You are more likely to think things bad with a post the more you do post after all.

So yeah lynching the bottom row is something I have no real strong objections for, nor against besides the fact I'm just iffy on a Max/GE pairing. But that pairing is unlikely cause I think Max is town here and want to talk to Blair on it

[Clover Ebi]

I'm starting to get into one of my ramble moods so I'm gonna go make lunch I spam.

[Clover Ebi]

I talked it over with myself and I think at this point I have no reason to not lynch the bottom row because I townread the middle and if the team is exactly Max/GE in theory it can still be lynched at 5p. So, one of Dunnstral/Beeboy today. Ye?

[Clover Ebi]

I think Max is town here and want to talk to Blair on it

If you can free me from this death tunnel I'm all ears, but I'm having a hard time seeing Max's posts as coming from town in good faith.

Max has little to no people he can be partners with in my eyes. The only way we'd lose to Max scum in your eyes is if 1 of me/T-bone are scum. Are you worried about that?

[Clover Ebi]

You weren't the person I was asking here Mostly because I expected that answer and it does nothing to help me what so ever.

[Clover Ebi]

Why haven't you commented on the fact you think I could be scum when about half the playerlist is townreading me. Shouldn't that worry you?

[Clover Ebi]

I think Max is town here and want to talk to Blair on it

If you can free me from this death tunnel I'm all ears, but I'm having a hard time seeing Max's posts as coming from town in good faith.

Max has little to no people he can be partners with in my eyes. The only way we'd lose to Max scum in your eyes is if 1 of me/T-bone are scum. Are you worried about that?

Why are we ruling out GuiltyLion? Am I missing something obvious?

(Because if the 5p has Guilty Lion in it I hope he would be lynched)

[Clover Ebi]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Clover Ebi]

It's a valid question!

[Clover Ebi]

I think I want to make you my spokesperson because you explain things in a manner better than I ever could.

[Clover Ebi]

I'm pretty sure one of beeboy/Clover Ebi is scum here

Why? I get you're a fan of the one sentence typing due to our last game Dunnstral but a bit more would be helpful here.

They probably push Guiltylion next

You mean the person I've been calling scum for the entire game? Yeah probably.

Blair has made exact posts I would've made before I did. I just agree with a lot of her thought process and like the way she's handling the game.

this feels like a really bad reason to townread someone

Why is townreading someone who has the same thought process as you bad?

(Because if the 5p has Guilty Lion in it I hope he would be lynched)

also

can you give an updated reason on why you think I am scum?

Like, we're well beyond my page 2 pushes which you considered reachy, what about the rest of my play since then has reinforced your scumread?

What about my read needs updating? It wasn't just page 2 pushes and during our interaction you didn't say much that would make me change my scumread on you. I don't see what part needs updating. You made about *checks* 20 posts after we were done talking and not all of them even were content worthy. Now you're talking about how scum are trying to set you up. I don't get what posts you've made that make it so I should change my read on you.

[Clover Ebi]

Day 1 should be our most productive day, only 2 people are tricking us and yet I feel the only thing we've really agreed on is lynching in the corners. And even that still feels rather messy because we should even more unified in this since. I think if the choice is between Dunnstral and Beeboy Dunnstral is the better lynch here due to his lack of reasoning on most of his posts. It feels like he's just making up reads on the spot to better fit the narrative.

[Clover Ebi]

Wait did he mean that as in tomorrow. That is a baseless assumption! I mean, at first I was leaning wanting Dunnstral dead so I could be a little selfish and have options on wanting to push Guilty but that was only for like, five minutes at best. Then I went back to just wanting to kill the bottom row.
pedit: I would've felt better about it if he reassessed it sooner. It could be genuine of course but if you look back he only committed to said townread after other people expressed a townread on me. He did say he'd reconsider but that's a middle ground that can go either way. I suppose I'll have to wait and see how strong that townread holds up day 2.

[Clover Ebi]

I wonder if I value fairness too much in mafia games. I was just thinking how Dunnstral saying Beeboy/Me pushing Guilty is unfair/baseless because we've both expressed interest in wanting him dead so if we do vote him the next day it'll probably come off as 'odd' due to the day before. However I didn't realize in my own head I was about to do the same thing to Guilty where if he start to scumread me day 2 I would want his death even more because I would expect scum Guilty to retract that scumread. Yet, there's no real for me to believe Town guilty can't change his mind either.

Dunnstral say Beeboy is lynched today what row are you going for?

[Clover Ebi]

Shouldn't this mostly be about who we townread and wouldn't mind in lylo more than who we scumread?

[Clover Ebi]

Okay. Celeste gets NKed because it is pointless to speculate otherwise.

Maxwell is lynched means T-Bone vs Clover. In order to lynch Maxwell here, he has to be scum, otherwise this nearly guarantees 5p LyLo.

Lynching beeboy means T-Bone vs. CSF. Which, while I think CSF is more likely to be scum than Clover at this point, is not ideal from my perspective for obvious reasons.

Lynching GuiltyLion means Clover vs Blair. This is interesting pairing. I townread Clover...I don't know how I feel about Blair anymore, but probably would want to test her more to see how viable as scum she is.

Lynching Dunnstral means Blair vs. CSF. Which is ideal from my perspective. Dunn and CSF are my two strongest scumreads. They are a possible pair, but that hinges on getting beeboy lynched today and me lynched tomorrow.

Right now beeboy is at L-1. Meaning that we lynch either CSF or myself tomorrow. We already know where Maxwell's comfort level is on this. Presumably Dunnstral is going to prefer my lynch. GuiltyLion, are you okay with this?

(yes I know we could lynch another corner as well meaning it's actually a 3-way tomorrow, but for all intents and purposes it would result in the same sets of deaths)

Am I missing something? Can't in theory we lynch the person on the other side of the square? Not just beside them. So if max was lynched we have 4 options not just a 1v1? Or am I incorrect.

[Clover Ebi]

Personally I want the top left corner to be our lylo.

I think our reads are exactly the same atm.

[Clover Ebi]

I hope our ic comes back so Beeboy isn't hammered yet. Although I'll probably lynch anyone who tries to hammer so soon. Grrr fear me

[Clover Ebi]

The last time I got framed as trying to set up lylo was by scum.

@max Why does it matter if my read developed early game when there was still clearly content to work with? I don’t think when the read happened is that important more so the progression on the read itself.

[Clover Ebi]

I also don’t see the problem with my reads being static. Although, I don’t think my reads have been static the closest you can say to that is guilty but that’s cherry picking
Pedit: The part you seem to ignore is I’ve openly agreed to killing csf. Along with the fact your entire basis for why you should be town read is wrong

[Clover Ebi]

Im not tunneling you, I’m not ignoring your reasoning I just don’t think your posting is townie compared to others and I don’t get why that bothers you so much.

[Clover Ebi]

There isn’t a case where I would ever vote beeboy tbone or max over you. I am voting Dunnstal over you even when T-bone has expressed interest in your lynch. I just think you’re overreacting for no reason. Or maybe your ego is hurt, I honestly can’t tell right now

[Clover Ebi]

I feel like the only one you can say I really didn’t update my read on is T-bone but considering he just posted i felt like it should be self explanatory that I still had a town read on them. Along with the fact I feel my progression with each slot has been very open so I don’t see how you’re not understanding. Yes 3 of my reads started from early game but I don’t see why you and guilty aren’t making sure a big deal about it. I’m always willing to listen to others opinions and back off if needed but just because I still hold the same opinion after a conversation does not make my reads static

[Clover Ebi]

Fro me, lynching Max is just bad for board state. Where Dunnstral opens the path to cat and guilty. Max opens to just guilty

[Clover Ebi]

I say I don't fear death...but my ability to lie is unrivaled, and I take pride in that. It's not just other people—I can even fool my own emotions. The conscious deceives the unconscious.

...

It's okay.

Well then, take care, everyone. Perhaps we'll meet again, in another life.

VOTE: Dunnstral

As your B tier townie I won’t let you down miss!

[Clover Ebi]

VOTE: Guilty Lion

Slight change of plans it seems.

[Clover Ebi]

Since we can all agree the scum team doesn't have 2 in Max/Me/T-bone and Cat is basically outted scum at thus point lynching the right side up is the correct play 9/10 times. The other spicy play is Max>Guilty but that doesn't make much sense when Cat should be outted at this point.

[Clover Ebi]

Really the only problem with Guilty scum is if he's scum and gets lynched he automatically loses the game because of what T-bone just said. But considering we're going up anyway I see no reason why not?

[Clover Ebi]

If we look at worst case we still end up with the same lylo as before right? The top left corner.
UNVOTE:
huh?

[Clover Ebi]

In what world do we not lynch Guilty>CSF?

[Clover Ebi]

Can't tell if I'm underthinking or you guys are overthinking. It seems pretty simple from my pov

[Clover Ebi]

I'm pretty sure we gave the impression it was CSF. Guilty/Blair was up for debate but CSF for sure.

[Clover Ebi]

Maybe this was more to get rid of beeboy than anything else? If you look at things we're basically getting the same result: A lylo with the top left corner. Really this just seems like a trap to make us go off the path. It makes a lot of sense if scum is in GL/Blair but even if the scum really is in T-bone/Max/Myself we were agreeing to this f3 in the first place right? So really the paranoia and overthinking just seems like what mafia want.

I think the best play here is Guilty and Blair trying to give reads on the top left corner and who they think scum could be.

[Clover Ebi]

Not at all Miss. I've been fine with them dying for ages.

[Clover Ebi]

That's a pretty interesting theory but I don't think it's very practical or needed by scum me don't ya think?

[Clover Ebi]

Well, you certainly wouldn't mind keeping me around for an extra couple of days if you were mafia, now, would we, Clover? Don't worry, I'm just examining the odds.

As long as I stay in the B tier you can stay all game in my eyes.

[Clover Ebi]

It is only now dawning on me that atm I'm basically getting thrown into a LYLO with T-bone and Max with likely the hammer and that's not a choice I can confidently make atm. So reads on Max and T-bone would be wonderful from everyone right now.

[Clover Ebi]

Is it better to lynch someone we all think is scum right now? Like if CSF is somehow town we just accept that we lose that right? Or is that not a stance we should take? Because if you guys are more confident in Blair figuring out something then I am you can force a Blair/T-bone/CSF f3 (or Celes/T-bone/CSF f3 but I don't think people would be keen to that)

[Clover Ebi]

T-Bone/GL/Blair is also a f3 we can make possible. Say we lynch CSF today mafia can force us to kill 1 of Max/T-bone or the likely option being Celes into GL leaving with a top left f3. Yeah listing these is probably useless at the moment and I should just go start re reading.

[Clover Ebi]

Is it better to lynch someone we all think is scum right now?

In practical terms, no, even if you think me or T-Bone are scum, you'll have opportunity to vote us tomorrow, voting us today loses the IC and in all likelihood the game because GL has to die after the IC shot (and he's clearly town). You could still vote us tomorrow with the added benefit of a blair flip, but like I said I think thi is flipping red, she's trying to divert the lynch today because her dying puts scum in autoloss when it wouldn't make a significant difference as town, hence the vote on the IC

Thanks for clearing that up for me. It puts my head at ease...for the moment.

It is only now dawning on me that atm I'm basically getting thrown into a LYLO with T-bone and Max with likely the hammer and that's not a choice I can confidently make atm. So reads on Max and T-bone would be wonderful from everyone right now.

You mean I'm getting thrown into a choice between you and Max.

Back that truck up for a second.

I'm pretty sure no one here thinks I'm scum at the moment? But I'm glad you made that comment now than at f3. If you have worries about my slot you should probably address them while we have a day left.

[Clover Ebi]

I think you're taking my comment the wrong way, but this has helped me regardless.

[Clover Ebi]

But, before I clarify my statement why do you think the statement itself is coming from scum me?

[Clover Ebi]

I naturally assumed I was going to get hammer due to previous comments and literally no one expressing a scum read on me. I don’t have a filer and that wasn’t supposed to come off as arrogant but it was my natural assumption at the moment. However in the back of my mind I was worried about what happened to me last game so I also made that statement to see if someone would have an issue or strong reaction to scumreading me so I could get rid of any doubts now instead of at lylo like last game. Arrogant is one of the last words that comes to my mind. Due to my lack of confidence and clear unawareness of how I come off at times that wasn’t my idea.

Declaring that he's gonna be the deciding vote on Day 4 when we haven't even finished Day 2 tells me he may actually know the board. Otherwise you would not be so quick to dismiss a Maxwell/Bone scum pairing. Which objectively that pairing makes a ton of sense regardless of how you feel about any other player.

Plus treating yourself as confirmed town when you are at best tied for the most townread player is not a protown look. This is really awful coming from Clover two days before that could even happen.

GL as my potentially soon to be confirmed town buddy, bounce your ideas with me. Pretend you have a nullread on everyone for the moment. What do you think?

Of course I am going to be thinking of lylo because I've accepted the fact if you and Max are the team I'll lose. I made that conclusion on day 1. Besides if that really was the scum team you guys already had the win. So I don't see why that's such a grievance for you. If the game is over because someone on the right side is scum that isn't really something I need to concern myself with right? I also am no where near treating myself as confirmed town. I don't know the board, but I am making assumptions because as I've said before, overthinking is what the mafia want with that kind of night kill.

[Clover Ebi]

Considering last game I was townread the entire game until 5p and then lylo where my townread turned on me you could say I have paranoia about being a largely townread slot. What I don't get is why does scum me just not...stay quiet about all that? Well, you don't really need to answer that because I can't give an honest answer on what I'd do as scum here. Mostly because I haven't played as scum on this site before. I wouldn't be doing this well though, probably? Maybe? I do well as scum on other sites but I never feel like it even if my winrate says otherwise. I feel like MS is an entirely new ball game though.
I lost the point I was trying to make in this statement, but I guess I'd want you to look at the game from a scum me standpoint and see if that makes sense.
pedit: If CSF is town I'm pretty sure we lose because I've planned to vote GL>CSF or a reverse of that the entire time. The scum team isn't the 3 of us so I don't see a problem.

[Clover Ebi]

Like, the 5p doesn't scare me because Max/You as a team doesn't make sense because you would've won already.

We lynch GL and Blair dies. Who does that leave? CSF who I will auto vote.

I hope that explains why I'm thinking of lylo rn and not 5p

[Clover Ebi]

That's fine, I just want you to read my points so we can move past it. In my eyes its important to discuss reads on the three of us anyway so if this is the direction we're going I'm fine with it.

[Clover Ebi]

That's fine! I lost my 2nd game on here in a familiar fashion so I felt odd about being so widely townread and worried at lylo that it'd happen again. I think it's better to talk about who you scumread here anyway. I'm not gonna shift from the current plan so using this time to talk reads on you guys is gold to me. For example, I feel like if I had to vote right now it'd be Max over you.

[Clover Ebi]

VOTE: Guilty Lion

L-1

[Clover Ebi]

I think you're taking my comment the wrong way, but this has helped me regardless.

Pray tell, how has this helped you in reading T-Bone?

I think the way T-bone reacted to me has made me townread him even more. It's not like I wasn't townreading him already but since my mind is thinking of lylo where it's Max and T-bone I have to think about it from that standpoint. While his points against me made sense that's not really the part that stuck out to me. (Given scum can make sense as well) It was more the fact T-bone came after me right away instead of waiting for later along with his tone. It just seems unneeded

[Clover Ebi]

I'm craving some upsidedown fudgecake if you have any to spare! Besides that I feel content to end the day.

[Clover Ebi]

I think in trying to play careful/paranoid town and cover our bases and not be too arrogant in our solve, we've all been a bit blind to the simplest explanation in front of us: CSF/Blair is the team and didn't have

any

good NK options last night

Hey speak for yourself! I've been trying to lynch you all day

[Clover Ebi]

Woo nice job everyone. This was a really fun game, feel bad for the mafia though.