Micro 955: Variant Nomination Mafia (Game Over)

[Varsoon]

If we're just using the nominate as a gated lynch, what's to keep up from just lynching the nominated player every time?

@MOD: If a player is nominated, exactly what happens? How long does the nominator have to pick lynch nominees? How long of a day phase will there be before and after the Nomination goes through?

As players, we should probably instigate a certain grace period after nomination just so we can actually get player interaction before AND after a nomination goes through.
As little as I want to render this a normal mountainous/nightless, it does seem in our best interest to kinda just do that.
Otherwise, we're up to speculation on every nomination ticket.

[Varsoon]

I want to engage with the mechanic of the game rather than treating it like it doesn't exist.
Feels against the spirit of the setup to do anything else.
At which point the real question is this:
Do we nominate a global town-read or do we nominate a global scum-read?

[Varsoon]

Also, hey, Dunnstral, it's nice to play with you again after my very long hiatus from the site.
I hope life has treated you well and it's reassuring to see a familiar face in this game.

[Varsoon]

You don't think we can come to solid consensus on who town and scum are as of D1?
I'm still quite fuzzy on what the deadlines are, don't know that they're in the opening rules crawl or I'm blind.

[Varsoon]

> Deadlines for each phase (nominator and execution) will be equal to the number of living players in the game.

Thank you.
In that case, we've got 7 days to figure out a nomination so we should use this time instead of just bolting through it.
I also propose we take at least 48 hours after the execution phase begins before we come to a majority lynch.
Why don't you think people can actually come to a consensus D1? We've got the time to do so.
I agree that it's probably best to use the mechanic early and instead just lynch through nomination if we every hit MYLO/LYLO.

]

Spoiler: SNIP

Do we nominate a global town-read or do we nominate a global scum-read?

I'd prefer global scum-read.
If we nominate a global town-read, chances are we'll end up lynching the scummiest anyway.
Nominating a global scum-read gives us the additional WIFOM aspect, which might be useful.

In my experience, WIFOM tends to favor scum.

[Varsoon]

At the time of my confirmation 5/7 confirmed.
Meaning 1 player confirmed and decided not to post.

I think that indicates scum being in Varsono and Hellbook

this is a likely town post and if they're telling the truth we narrowed down at least 1 mafia pretty quick.

This sort of hedging reeks
Also not comfortable with how hard back you skirted when even the thought of being held accountable for D1 reads was brought up

[Varsoon]

Hellbrooks:

Can you comment a bit more on the gamestate and your thoughts on players so far?

Yukino:

"Scum favor making attacks over town reads" : I understand the logic here, but I want to be frank with you; if you really hold this to be true, you coming in declaring hard townreads would then be play that could hide your status as scum, no? I'm of the mind that pinning any sort of behavior as 'scum behavior' only lets scum manipulate and play around what people hold to be consensus.

DkKoba:

Can you actually elaborate on your reads re:Dunnstral and Raya?

Raya:

You've said you're not confident in your D1 reads and that there is "very little chance of getting a good enough read D1 to confidently say someone is a strong town read or a strong scum read". How do you feel about the people who have pronounced strong reads so far in the game? I've developed some fairly strong reads of my own, but I have yet to express them as bluntly as others. Should be evident, though. This'll help;

VOTE: DkKoba

[Varsoon]

I'll make it even clearer:
I'm of the mind there's at least one scum between DkKoba and Raya, given their play and positioning so far.

[Varsoon]

Good. Don't trust me. You shouldn't.
Who would your other nominations be right now?
Curious what makes my reads 'bad faith' or poor play, but mostly so I understand your perspective here. Elaborate.

[Varsoon]

I also want it to be very clear: I think you entertaining Yukino's idea of confirmations indicating scuminess is the sort of thing that's liable to just lead to two mislynches if serious stock is put into it.

[Varsoon]

DkKoba - I think we're on different pages about what you were doing. I'm talking about you putting stock into the whole 'confirmed players who haven't posted = scum' thing. You townreading Yukino for that logic also doesn't make sense to me, but I'm less critical of that.
You might not like my methods, but I don't know most of you or how you play. I'm trying to parse that, since I don't have meta knowledge to really determine what's baseline town or scum play for any of you.

[Varsoon]

I'm always around.
I don't see the logic you're laying out for Yukino being town based on that post.
Paying such hard attention to confirms/signups strikes me as someone extra excited to begin--that sort of excitement in a game that hasn't begun is usually indicative of an interesting role; the only interesting roles in this game are scum.
Coming in with an out-of-game rationale / argument around posting for someone definitely being scum between only two players isn't the sort of thing I'd expect town to propose, either.
So I don't understand why you'd read that act as a town act.

[Varsoon]

@Yukino:

To be fair, I was excited for gamestart due to the moderator and it's my first game in over a year.
All said, I'm also considering this from a moderator point of view, since I mod much more than I play.
If a player of mine was looking at player confirmation/posting in pre-game and trying to leverage that as an advantage, I'd think they're either:
1. Shortsighted and avoiding engaging with the rhetorical aspects of the game.
2. Trying to leverage something as a discussion point and potential rationale to push for a lynch, which is scummy.
I get the points made that coming in and doing something like that could put a target on you, which would be something scum would want to avoid, but making that as a counterargument is entirely the kind of WIFOM I'd expect from scum who realize the advantages of leveraging mechanical/setup rubbish against town. It's easy to take the position of "If someone calls me out, I can just say I was making an observation and potentially even fishing for scum to push me over it or lean into my faulty logic." I find that scum players will often deal with the unplayed moments as both defense and argument against others.

I could get more into it, but it's safe to say that if you've been on-site for awhile on your main, you're probably familiar with me and how unconventional my approach to the game can be. If you're not, well. That's how it is.
A lot of my play is informed by how I've seen others play while modding and through what feels right in the moment of play. I'm a very read-by-gut player. As much as I talk about meta, I also hold it to be only useful for informing one's approach and not really defining alignment, since I expect people to be cognizant enough of their own meta to play contrary to it.

[Varsoon]

I'm more in favor of taking choice out of scum hands rather than letting them smokescreen and WIFOM.

[Varsoon]

Hey, woah, slow your roll.
It only takes 4 to lynch and I'd like us to actually have some time to have discussion post-nomination.

[Varsoon]

I told y'all my d1 reads usually suck btw. my logic is typically based on flips and association tells and I always go for stuff I find anti-town as a starting point / poe a scumpool.

It makes me really uncomfortable how much you refrain with this.
I also am pretty conflicted on the Nash slot and would like your thoughts on it, even though I know he's not in the nominations here.

[Varsoon]

Hello!

Nominate: DkKoba

why would mafia want to be nominated

Do you think it's likely that we end up lynching the nominee on day 1?

It's 33.33% chance of dying against 0%. I don't think mafia would start with something like this.

This reads a lot like Nash was covering for you, imo.

[Varsoon]

What do you think Hellbrooks needs to provide to give you more confidence in reading their slot?

[Varsoon]

I'm not asking you what they'd have to write verbatim
But instead more generally trying to get you to provide me with the sort of info/responses you're hoping to get from them.

P-EDIT:
I'd do that if I was scum.

[Varsoon]

Like, would getting Hellbrook's reads help?
Would hellbrooks commenting on any specific part of the game help?
I want to know what would help you more confidently read Hellbrooks
Because as it stands, I'm not all too happy with you having nominated someone you're not even pushing engagement with (despite the vote) but state what feels like a sort of unsure read of.

P-EDIT:
I don't know that it's all too scummy to do what they did. Can you explain what makes that scum play?

[Varsoon]

I'm always around if you wanna sound stuff off of me

[Varsoon]

Congrats on the move, hellbooks.
I loathe moving but am grateful for it when it's done with.
I'd like to know more of your thoughts on the game when you have the chance.

[Varsoon]

Pose questions.
Pressure slots you don't have read confidence on.
Drive the engagement you want to see.
I'm here.

[Varsoon]

any reason you think the yukino opening is not town motivated? I'm not going to base my whole read on that but I felt it was a good starting point in "solve pressure" as I like to call it.

I think I outlined why on this earlier in post 96. It's the kind of play I could see myself doing as scum.

[Varsoon]

Cool way to mis-characterize my argument, Yukino.
Go back and read post 96 where I break down why the entrance isn't something I'd townread.
You're shooting far too hard from the hip here.

[Varsoon]

I'm also pretty curious why DkKoba didn't nominate me but I wasn't going to ask since I'm already pretty self-absorbed.

[Varsoon]

If you're talking about post 155, then it's still about you, Yukino.
Stop speed-reading.

[Varsoon]

Don't get me talkin' about 'levels'. You'll probably hate it, Yukino.
I'm not the one putting stock into the entrance, Yukino--that's Dkkoba and others. I was critical of them townreading the entrance since it didn't ping me as especially town.
I think Nash is in a very poor position and has largely been coasting and making play under the argument of 'not paying attention' which is something I'm not keen on.
Our town either sucks ass or scum's just playing real overtly. Rough stuff.
I'd vote DKkoba, Raya, then Hellbooks--in that order, right now.
I wouldn't vote Dunnstral.
Which, y'know. Speaking of coasting:

Dunnstral:

Please offer some input here, now that we're post-nomination.

P-EDIT:
Seems like Yukino's coming to some of the same conclusions I am.

[Varsoon]

I still don't trust you quite yet and I'd vote you first and foremost 'cus you've interacted with the most amount of people and would give the most information on flip.
I haven't ruled you out as scum, either.

[Varsoon]

Shame you didn't nominate me, then, DkKoba, which means I can push you with impunity during D1 at least.
I don't think you're a strong town voice.
Hellbooks is here, where's the pressure you said you would put on 'em?

@Hellbooks: Early modes of engagement and tonality. It's been fading since, but I'm unsure yet if that's Dunnstral coasting or just having a regular activity dip as this game has been live for, what--3 days?

[Varsoon]

I don't see where I'm deflecting, discrediting, and I don't know what LHF means.
When the nomination happened, I was given a list of four players to focus on because one would be today's lynch.
That's what I'm doing right now.
Town flip for you makes me absolutely sure of the 2 remaining scum in a pool of 3 players.

[Varsoon]

Early positioning and posturing based on your input and that of several other slots, including the ones in question.
I want a scum flip from you, but an info flip wouldn't be terrible in a nightless D1.

[Varsoon]

Why do you think you'll be alive on D2?

[Varsoon]

Yeah, sure, call it openscumming because you're trying to paint a town slot red.

[Varsoon]

You're sweating quite a lot with only just a little pressure put on you.
Now, address Halfbooks with the questions you nebulously alluded to that would help you produce better reads on the slot.

[Varsoon]

EBWOP: Hellbooks*
<3

[Varsoon]

I don't see where I'm deflecting, discrediting, and I don't know what LHF means.

You also haven't answered or addressed any of this, but sure have shifted your focus to full-on pushing me the second I put you under any scrutiny.
Oh, or should one of the few lynch candidates not be considered as possible scum?
MY bad.
I'm trying to fucking solve the game here. I can't do that solely be insisting someone is scum without engaging there first.
I haven't even voted or cased you yet. Don't tremble so hard at the notion that I'd vote you before others. Vindicate yourself.

[Varsoon]

Alright, cool, you asked hellbooks a question.
What info did you get from that?
Are you satisfied with hellbook's response?
What do you think of the slot?
What about Raya? They've been around and posting. What's your take there now?

[Varsoon]

Will admit, my attention is a bit divided at this moment. Had thought you asked BEFORE the recent Hellbooks posts.

[Varsoon]

Why do you characterize yourself as Low Hanging Fruit?

[Varsoon]

Here's the interaction I was thinking of:

Spoiler: SNIP

hellbrooks: they've been lurky in the shadows and suddenly came out to hammer the vote on me which I find scum asf. imma be real I have a suspicion that they're teamed with raya for the move they did there.

i've been

moving

...... also i

didnt

hammer... jeez....
this sucks!!!

include a third I reskimmed quickly and made my choice that way.

why so cavalier about it

raya
dunn
dkkoba
(t -> s)

like fr I think hellbooks hammering me with little explaination was fairly scummy and they seemed detached and just sheeping the wagon that had most votes and people need to see that

i didnt hammer you

I loathe moving but am grateful for it when it's done with.

yeah i'm tired af, thanks

ok so any reason you think this is town raya? because I'm not buying this casing.

it might not be a good read but it circumstantially can definitely come from town in fact one might say (I might say) that it has higher town equity

and I demand an explaination because at this point it feels like there's setup going on here where you force a nomination on me but also offer shade on other slots to set them up as MLs.

i have no explanation other than gut

I'm also pretty curious why DkKoba didn't nominate me but I wasn't going to ask since I'm already pretty self-absorbed.

this is mediumly scummy

dkkoba does seem to care a lot about like, getting it right
hm

Why are you acting like Post 185 is the response to the following:

Spoiler: The pressure you'd alluded you'd be putting there

What do you think Hellbrooks needs to provide to give you more confidence in reading their slot?

Revealing that would allow them to mimic it

I'm not asking you what they'd have to write verbatim
But instead more generally trying to get you to provide me with the sort of info/responses you're hoping to get from them.

Like, would getting Hellbrook's reads help?
Would hellbrooks commenting on any specific part of the game help?
I want to know what would help you more confidently read Hellbrooks
Because as it stands, I'm not all too happy with you having nominated someone you're not even pushing engagement with (despite the vote) but state what feels like a sort of unsure read of.

I think I'd rather wait for hellbooks to actually post themselves before I make any comments about that at the moment (:

I'm just not following your logic on hellbooks here and it doesn't seem like you're actually driving engagement with the slot.
Moreover, it actually seems like

you're the one actively going after low-hanging fruit

with a player that was universally seen as likely-not-town, put in a TvS dichotomy with me by Yukino's flawed confirmation-spec that more than one other player agreed was at least a 'townie' perspective to have; the same Hellbooks who has been moving and ergo can't respond as much as any other player--the same Hellbooks that would be easy to push given all of these things. It's really not helping me very much when your response to their posts is to rhetorically cross your arms with "I'm going to need something better on your read on me" which seems like such a self-conscious move to make when you're not even asking any questions to them. Your engagement with the slot has ENTIRELY been claiming what they're doing is scummy (pushing you, amirite?) and quoting some of their posts by saying the progression doesn't make sense. You never explain why. And then when I'm critical of why you're not doing more, you've offered up, in post 182 with "I haven't had time to figure out how to case my push on her. I do find their post flimsy." Flimsy how? Articulate yourself.

The reason this gives me even more cause for concern regarding your slot is that you're

very

self conscious. Here's my notes on what informed a scumread on you that I'd played close to my chest pre-nomination:

Spoiler: NOTES SNIP:

Page 2 reads way too self-conscious coming out of how seriously town is discussing holding people accountable.
Their response to me also sucks and, again, is way too self-conscious.
Asks Yukino for more but lets hellbrooks slide on the same page (pg3)

The second that I mention I'd vote you over the other nominees, all of a sudden I'm "Open Scumming"? The second I start to give you more pressure and engage with your slot, you run off with "Needing to go to sleep" before "You say something too mean"? What do I care if you say something mean to me? If I was scum, I'd be worried that you'd say something to

catch

me. I'm going to characterize this as an alignment slip on your part because you realize the intent of reaction to me would be

harmful

rather than

inquisitive

. It throws me for a real loop how flighty you are and how quick you can be to find people who townread you as those you see as town--that's behavior I expect from scum or from inexperienced players who aren't being critical of the actual game state. The amount of projection you've immediately put on my slot while characterizing yourself as some victim/Low-Hanging Fruit is the sort of self-preservationist defensive play that I expect from only one of the three following types:
1. Newbtown who thinks their survival is important in a game and can't handle pressure at all.
2. Scum who are caught early and sweating hard because a D1 scumlynch is pretty much doom for their team.
3. Someone with a Power Role who doesn't want to be outted so early and is responding poorly to pressure given the fact they don't want to out how important their survival is to the balance of the game.
Given this is a mountainous, I'm forced to reconcile that you're either the first or second option here.
If you're the first, then you're a liability for us to take forward in the game. You're always going to be daggers-drawn on anyone who suspects you and it'll misinform your reads as you're sorely misinformed about me being scum. I know this because I know my alignment and had to mod-confirm it to play the game.
If you're the second, you need to be buried ASAP anyway.
So, from my perspective, in the pool of nominees, you're the one who has to go.

VOTE: Dkkoba

[Varsoon]

hellbooks I'm going to need something better on your read on me because at this point you've given a bunch of non-contribution in terms of your "reads" other than perhaps your analysis of a few of the posts you listed but even those feel low effort.

and no, I haven't even gotten a response. Are you even reading this game?

This isn't a question, for the record.
This is "PLAY BETTER"
Which is nebulous and doesn't offer anything at all for the player to

actually act on

.
I'm also not a fan of how you block 'reads' off with quotes like that--if you've got issues with Hellbooks' reads, then engage there and ask what is informing them. Mudslinging isn't helping you understand the slot; you're just dragging it.
The same way you immediately shifted tactics to dragging my slot when literally all I said was that I'd vote you before the other nominees.
Curious, that.

[Varsoon]

I'd like to know what other people's thoughts on DkKoba are.
How are you all reading the sort of play that Koba's laying down here?
I see the 'town' argument for it, but that is giving a lot of benefit of the doubt and me literally going, "Well I guess I'll keep this town liability around over
1. A player I townread
2. A player I lean-town
3. A player I'll be pretty sure is lock-scum if Koba flips Green"

[Varsoon]

From what I remember I don't really scumread dkkoba

I don't have a strong read on Raya right now. I think we should lynch Raya or Hellbooks

Thoughts on our interactions these last few pages and the points I raise re:DkKboa?
What do you think would help you read Raya?

[Varsoon]

I don't read Koba's engagement as genuine towards creating any sort of worthwhile momentum.
I've consistently urged them to do so and their resistance to it has happened over and over again.

[Varsoon]

Should also be noted that Dkkoba is pushing a narrative that I am scum based on the following progression:

Our town either sucks ass or scum's just playing real overtly. Rough stuff.
I'd vote DKkoba, Raya, then Hellbooks--in that order, right now.

To which they respond:

Oh nice shade varsoon! you mind backing that up?

Now, this is pretty self-absorbed. They could ask why I have more reads confidence on Hellbooks or even Dunnstral--you know, those other people they nominated?! I find it especially curious they're not pushing me at all over Raya, given I said much earlier I felt Scum was between DKkoba and Raya. Anyway, this quickly turns to...

this kind of push you're driving on me is starting to sell me on scum!varsoon.

eliminating strong town voices is not pro town no matter how you want to frame it. i dont care if it gives you information, I'm not going to let it happen.

(This is kind of funny, they characterize themselves as a 'Strong Town Voice' here, but then later call themselves LHF/Low-Hanging-Fruit.)


Nevermind this post:

I'll make it even clearer:
I'm of the mind there's at least one scum between DkKoba and Raya, given their play and positioning so far.

To which their immediate response was to go "after this varsoon I don't exactly trust you (: you're making reads in bad faith. either you are playing bad or are scum. I'll take the nomination but you're coming with me."
Curious how they took the nomination and I didn't come with them. It's almost like their reads are wholly inconsistent and reliant solely on who is pushing them at any given time.
Hmmmm, why would town play that way, I wonder?

[Varsoon]

For a fun time in seeing how DkKoba handles pressure poorly, ISO them and search out 'Shade' and 'Shading'.
That's how they've developed their reads.
It's all reactionary.
That's not engagement.
And it's not consistent.
I have a really hard time believing this as coming from town.

[Varsoon]

It's consistent in that DkKoba's reads consistently are compromised by a need to heavily scumread anyone that 'shades' their slot.
It's inconsistent in that their engagement with those players otherwise and the logic they're laying down isn't reflective of the read they actually have.

[Varsoon]

i remember someone mentioning something about excitement for this game meaning that the person probably rolled scum bc its the most interesting role. Pretty sure that was you iirc. And look at how you been acting

Yeah, town can't ever be excited to play, especially if they think they've caught scum.
Will admit I feel tunneled on you now, if you want any sort of condolences, but if you're scum, you sure don't deserve 'em.

i always question people who fos me for bad reasons and the fact you want to latch onto that is telling and different from the shade others have given.

VOTE: dkkoba

You're next after me

you are blowing things outta proportion like incredibly

I agree. Not sure if, again, newb-town flail or scum flail in hopes it'll make'em look town.
After all, I called them survivalistic and said that a lynch there would yield info. Best way to deny either? Self-vote. It's such a dramatic response, though. Reeks of scum theatrics to me.

i dont care im tired of getting fosed like this in every game because i dont interact the way they want me to

Hold on, you get FOS'd like this in every game?
I'm gonna pull you some of your own advice, then:

I'm going to need something better [from you] because at this point you've given a bunch of non-contribution in terms of your "reads" other than perhaps your analysis of a few of the posts you listed but even those feel low effort.

As for Dunnstral, my sense they're town is fading more and more as they continue to literally coast through.
I'd like them to take a few hard stances and I've given them every opportunity to.
Important thing to keep in mind is that scum do have daychat. Not gonna ask you to entertain who my daychat partner would be, were I'm scum, since I'm not, so it'd be a futile effort, but I do want you to consider that any possible scum-team very likely can co-ordinate distancing, bussing, etc. I'm of the mind that Koba's partner, if Koba's scum here, is very likely distancing from the whole Koba wagon, trying to get something else pushed on town instead, etc. It's why I feel like the nomination pool all avoiding Koba despite my case articulated there is giving me super bad vibes but I also don't want to double-down on what might be a tunnel that blinds me to other things.
Still don't want a lynch there, though.

[Varsoon]

And by 'there', I mean Dunnstral.

[Varsoon]

Hey, DKkoba. If you're town, unvote yourself and engage with the other players. At least the ones on nomination.
Voting yourself and shutting down isn't just suicidal, it's literally denying town info if you are today's lynch.
It's hard for me to read that play as anything but scum play, and I'm really trying to olive branch here because I feel that if you're town, I may have upset or offended you for pushing you.

You have to understand that this is a

game

where, based on the information and play of other players, TOWN has to figure who is most likely to flip scum.
That means, as TOWN, you're going to be pushed every time you put down play that makes people think you're scum.
It's not a personal assault or something you should find offensive. It's literally part of the design of the game of Mafia.
Don't take it personally. If it upsets you that your efforts aren't rewarded with a town read, then think about how you can change your approach.
You're not lynched and out of the game until you're lynched and out of the game.
Please engage with the other slots here (at least your nominations) instead of making this about you.
That said, if you're scum, I don't care what you do. I'm glad I've caught you, in that case, I only wish you wouldn't try to emotionally manipulate me so much afterwards.
I understand this is a game of

manipulation

for both town and for scum, though. As much as I wish there was some kind of aftercare for how harsh things can get, there often isn't.
I'm sorry if my push on you has caused undue stress, regardless of your alignment.

[Varsoon]

Do you think the whole nomination pool might be town, Raya?
I'm of the mind that's a dangerous mindset to be in, since we could potentially be conf-biasing ourselves into thinking of scum inside-or-outside the nominations instead of trying to engage with individuals and get better reads traditionally.

[Varsoon]

So, I suppose my question is this:
If everyone in the pool is town by your take and you think I'm town:
What makes Nash and Yukino scum?

[Varsoon]

I do agree that if we're playing this absolutely on surface level here, Nash is real high on my list for scum, but I want to know what your rationale is before I drop my own.

[Varsoon]

when i flip town the info everyone gets is that you are scum varsoon. There i fixed that for you

Entertain the very real possibility that I'm town here and you realize how anti-town that logic is, DkKoba.
If you're town, you'll engage with this game instead of doubling down here.
If you're scum, I want you to know this death-flailing isn't helping you get townread by me at all.
Regardless of your alignment, the more you do this, the more I will continue to scumread you.
I'm not going to let myself be manipulated by emotional appeals or threats.

Regardless of the conclusion I come to here,
You're either scum doing everything they can try to survive here
or
You're a huge liability for town, inconsistent in your logic, and likely to cost us the game if I let you survive.

P-EDIT: You wanna be the universal townread, you earn that shit. You're not doing it here.

So I'm quite happy with where my vote is and I'm willing to say your egotism is likely a personality tell rather than an alignment one.
70:30 on scum to town and I'll take those odds to bank on D1 reads.

VOTE: DkKoba

[Varsoon]

"You're a liability for town " classic scum logic to justify when they force a ML through

Yeah, ignore literally the rest of everything I'm laying down here.

the self-unvote at L1 ... hm

I asked them to do it, so.
Thoughts?

[Varsoon]

you keep gaslighting and using hypocritical logic varsoon you're altering reality to fit your theory instead of altering your theories to fit reality. Truth is it seems like you think you will have trouble winning as scum here if you don't ML me here without a nightkill to get rid of me

Nah, dawg, if I was scum, I wouldn't be playing such power scum out the gate here.
You can decide whether or not you trust this when you die and the mod lets you know you're wrong.

[Varsoon]

That's cool, but maybe engage with all the points I asked and push you to

[Varsoon]

I'm done with you being obstinately wrong, not gonna engage with it.

[Varsoon]

My vote remains.

[Varsoon]

@MOD: Will the deadline be paused at all while we wait for a replacement?
@REPLACEMENT: Your slot may have just thrown our D1 down the drain by being the nominator and replacing out.
Please step up to the plate and put in the work they weren't willing to endeavor to do.

If the deadline is frozen, then my vote stays as is until the replacement is caught up and posts.
If the deadline isn't going to change, I'm going to move my vote.

[Varsoon]

They think it's cool to lynch someone for coasting.
That said, I do want more from you.
And we're going to need more from you to solve this.

[Varsoon]

UNVOTE:
Phone posting for the first time a my entire Mafia career. I'm also using text-to-speech for the first time in my entire Mafia career. How exciting. Anyway Riya is now my top to vote for in this pool. I do not want to vote books. I suppose this is speech-to-text actually, it makes it very hard to get players names but maybe I can just write those. Anyway, sorry if I got any pronouns mixed up, I tend to use they and neutral pronouns for other players unless they explicitly ask.

[Varsoon]

We're closing in on only 48 hours left.
I expect everyone's next posts to include a vote for the slot they think is most likely to flip scum.
Some explanation of the vote should be included.
I'm still not sold on the DkKoba slot and the replace in hasn't done anything to build confidence there despite being given time to do so.
The response of the game having weird "flow" when there's plenty of engagement before and after the Execution phase strikes me as not trying to take any hard stances while refusing to really play catchup since the slot's current position is one that's not being pushed anymore.
I'm still about 70% confidence on this, but it's better than shooting in the dark:
VOTE: PookyTheMagicalBear

If it flips town, though, I'm going to be fairly critical of Raya (for pumping the breaks on this wagon at awkward times, among other things) and Dunnstral (for coasting out when it seemed like focus was much more on DkKoba but doing nothing to help push what he may've known to be a townflip).

[Varsoon]

Do you mean in the game itself?
Or are you literally telling me, another human being, to commit suicide?

[Varsoon]

'cus, homie, regardless, that's a pretty toxic response to having a single vote put on you in an environment where a majority of players have voiced they think your slot is town.

[Varsoon]

Still a dramatic thing to say.

[Varsoon]

Ain't the first time someone, over mafia, because I've been pushing them, has told me to kill myself (or worse).
Also, nah, I'm not going to throw the game because I had a single wrong read.

[Varsoon]

If anything, take this as the fire under your ass to engage with what's been posted and help this lazy, half-present town come together in a way that they haven't yet.

P-EDIT: It's a nightless/no-kill game and the proper response fitting in-game mechanics would be 'vote yourself' or 'get lynched/executed D2'.
You hit me with a 'kill yourself', so, y'know. I had to parse what you actually meant.
As for my vote, it's not meaningless. It's on you with intent for lynch and with thought rendered.
There are consequences if I'm wrong. We're one mislynch down and can only afford two more. I then have to vindicate myself tomorrrow for leading on a mislynch or I end up in the fire and we're two mislynches down. That's the risk I'm willing to take over this.

[Varsoon]

You can't say "pretend if you're wrong there are some actual consequences" when my wincon literally requires scum to be removed from game, dude.
Town executions ARE the consequences.

[Varsoon]

Yes, which is why I need to remove you.

[Varsoon]

Like, you understand that in order for town to win, they have to vote for scum, right?

[Varsoon]

Also, Pooky, I suggest you do actually read up, catch up, etc. and lay a vote soon.

Deadline is coming and, given plurality rules, the scum team gets to essentially decide the Execute if we've ever got a tie.

[Varsoon]

I'm convinced otherwise.
I could swing Raya, though, and a huge part of me is tempted to due to how hard I feel like I've been tunnel-visioned to your slot and that I'm reading DkKoba's replace out as one motivated by personal feelings, which leads me to believe his flailing was NAI and his play was just, y'know. Bad play. :/
Or, fuck it, I could lynch Dunnstral, but then I'm pretty much going to hate myself if that flips green.
At this point, it feels like my thoughts on anything aren't really regarded anyway.

[Varsoon]

My B, they're slot/they're play* Forgot pronouns. :///

[Varsoon]

And grammar, apparently.
Their*

[Varsoon]

Spoiler: The case, for the most part

Here's the interaction I was thinking of:

hellbrooks: they've been lurky in the shadows and suddenly came out to hammer the vote on me which I find scum asf. imma be real I have a suspicion that they're teamed with raya for the move they did there.

i've been

moving

...... also i

didnt

hammer... jeez....
this sucks!!!

include a third I reskimmed quickly and made my choice that way.

why so cavalier about it

raya
dunn
dkkoba
(t -> s)

like fr I think hellbooks hammering me with little explaination was fairly scummy and they seemed detached and just sheeping the wagon that had most votes and people need to see that

i didnt hammer you

I loathe moving but am grateful for it when it's done with.

yeah i'm tired af, thanks

ok so any reason you think this is town raya? because I'm not buying this casing.

it might not be a good read but it circumstantially can definitely come from town in fact one might say (I might say) that it has higher town equity

and I demand an explaination because at this point it feels like there's setup going on here where you force a nomination on me but also offer shade on other slots to set them up as MLs.

i have no explanation other than gut

I'm also pretty curious why DkKoba didn't nominate me but I wasn't going to ask since I'm already pretty self-absorbed.

this is mediumly scummy

dkkoba does seem to care a lot about like, getting it right
hm

Why are you acting like Post 185 is the response to the following:

What do you think Hellbrooks needs to provide to give you more confidence in reading their slot?

Revealing that would allow them to mimic it

I'm not asking you what they'd have to write verbatim
But instead more generally trying to get you to provide me with the sort of info/responses you're hoping to get from them.

Like, would getting Hellbrook's reads help?
Would hellbrooks commenting on any specific part of the game help?
I want to know what would help you more confidently read Hellbrooks
Because as it stands, I'm not all too happy with you having nominated someone you're not even pushing engagement with (despite the vote) but state what feels like a sort of unsure read of.

I think I'd rather wait for hellbooks to actually post themselves before I make any comments about that at the moment (:

I'm just not following your logic on hellbooks here and it doesn't seem like you're actually driving engagement with the slot.
Moreover, it actually seems like

you're the one actively going after low-hanging fruit

with a player that was universally seen as likely-not-town, put in a TvS dichotomy with me by Yukino's flawed confirmation-spec that more than one other player agreed was at least a 'townie' perspective to have; the same Hellbooks who has been moving and ergo can't respond as much as any other player--the same Hellbooks that would be easy to push given all of these things. It's really not helping me very much when your response to their posts is to rhetorically cross your arms with "I'm going to need something better on your read on me" which seems like such a self-conscious move to make when you're not even asking any questions to them. Your engagement with the slot has ENTIRELY been claiming what they're doing is scummy (pushing you, amirite?) and quoting some of their posts by saying the progression doesn't make sense. You never explain why. And then when I'm critical of why you're not doing more, you've offered up, in post 182 with "I haven't had time to figure out how to case my push on her. I do find their post flimsy." Flimsy how? Articulate yourself.

The reason this gives me even more cause for concern regarding your slot is that you're

very

self conscious. Here's my notes on what informed a scumread on you that I'd played close to my chest pre-nomination:
Page 2 reads way too self-conscious coming out of how seriously town is discussing holding people accountable.
Their response to me also sucks and, again, is way too self-conscious.
Asks Yukino for more but lets hellbrooks slide on the same page (pg3)
The second that I mention I'd vote you over the other nominees, all of a sudden I'm "Open Scumming"? The second I start to give you more pressure and engage with your slot, you run off with "Needing to go to sleep" before "You say something too mean"? What do I care if you say something mean to me? If I was scum, I'd be worried that you'd say something to

catch

me. I'm going to characterize this as an alignment slip on your part because you realize the intent of reaction to me would be

harmful

rather than

inquisitive

. It throws me for a real loop how flighty you are and how quick you can be to find people who townread you as those you see as town--that's behavior I expect from scum or from inexperienced players who aren't being critical of the actual game state. The amount of projection you've immediately put on my slot while characterizing yourself as some victim/Low-Hanging Fruit is the sort of self-preservationist defensive play that I expect from only one of the three following types:
1. Newbtown who thinks their survival is important in a game and can't handle pressure at all.
2. Scum who are caught early and sweating hard because a D1 scumlynch is pretty much doom for their team.
3. Someone with a Power Role who doesn't want to be outted so early and is responding poorly to pressure given the fact they don't want to out how important their survival is to the balance of the game.
Given this is a mountainous, I'm forced to reconcile that you're either the first or second option here.
If you're the first, then you're a liability for us to take forward in the game. You're always going to be daggers-drawn on anyone who suspects you and it'll misinform your reads as you're sorely misinformed about me being scum. I know this because I know my alignment and had to mod-confirm it to play the game.
If you're the second, you need to be buried ASAP anyway.
So, from my perspective, in the pool of nominees, you're the one who has to go.

VOTE: Dkkoba

hellbooks I'm going to need something better on your read on me because at this point you've given a bunch of non-contribution in terms of your "reads" other than perhaps your analysis of a few of the posts you listed but even those feel low effort.

and no, I haven't even gotten a response. Are you even reading this game?

This isn't a question, for the record.
This is "PLAY BETTER"
Which is nebulous and doesn't offer anything at all for the player to

actually act on

.
I'm also not a fan of how you block 'reads' off with quotes like that--if you've got issues with Hellbooks' reads, then engage there and ask what is informing them. Mudslinging isn't helping you understand the slot; you're just dragging it.
The same way you immediately shifted tactics to dragging my slot when literally all I said was that I'd vote you before the other nominees.
Curious, that.

I don't read Koba's engagement as genuine towards creating any sort of worthwhile momentum.
I've consistently urged them to do so and their resistance to it has happened over and over again.

Should also be noted that Dkkoba is pushing a narrative that I am scum based on the following progression:

Our town either sucks ass or scum's just playing real overtly. Rough stuff.
I'd vote DKkoba, Raya, then Hellbooks--in that order, right now.

To which they respond:

Oh nice shade varsoon! you mind backing that up?

Now, this is pretty self-absorbed. They could ask why I have more reads confidence on Hellbooks or even Dunnstral--you know, those other people they nominated?! I find it especially curious they're not pushing me at all over Raya, given I said much earlier I felt Scum was between DKkoba and Raya. Anyway, this quickly turns to...

this kind of push you're driving on me is starting to sell me on scum!varsoon.

eliminating strong town voices is not pro town no matter how you want to frame it. i dont care if it gives you information, I'm not going to let it happen.

(This is kind of funny, they characterize themselves as a 'Strong Town Voice' here, but then later call themselves LHF/Low-Hanging-Fruit.)


Nevermind this post:

I'll make it even clearer:
I'm of the mind there's at least one scum between DkKoba and Raya, given their play and positioning so far.

To which their immediate response was to go "after this varsoon I don't exactly trust you (: you're making reads in bad faith. either you are playing bad or are scum. I'll take the nomination but you're coming with me."
Curious how they took the nomination and I didn't come with them. It's almost like their reads are wholly inconsistent and reliant solely on who is pushing them at any given time.
Hmmmm, why would town play that way, I wonder?

For a fun time in seeing how DkKoba handles pressure poorly, ISO them and search out 'Shade' and 'Shading'.
That's how they've developed their reads.
It's all reactionary.
That's not engagement.
And it's not consistent.
I have a really hard time believing this as coming from town.

It's consistent in that DkKoba's reads consistently are compromised by a need to heavily scumread anyone that 'shades' their slot.
It's inconsistent in that their engagement with those players otherwise and the logic they're laying down isn't reflective of the read they actually have.

TL;DR: DkKoba was really inconsistent with their engagement and logic, very reactionary, very self-preserving, and their biggest scumread at any given time was whatever player was pressuring them the hardest.

---

Nested spoiler tags removed.

[Varsoon]

@MOD: Can you fix the busted spoiller= tag in there?

Sorry about that.

[Varsoon]

so basically your entire case on koba boils down to them playing like an asshole?

No,
Please actually read it.
But if that's your take-away, I don't know that I'm going to convince you otherwise.
'cus at that point, couldn't you just characterize ALL scum play as 'asshole' play?

[Varsoon]

@Raya: I expect them to come into the game, actually read the scant 14 pages we have, and lay down some reads and give some direction.
They've kinda just been there and it feels just as coasting as Dunn.
But at least they're engaging with me right now and for more than one post at a time which is more than I could say for Dunn.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, I'd be really uncomfortable with a Dunn lynch right now.
I'm much more interested in parsing Nash and Yukino, who have felt really absent in ways that I'm not happy with but I didn't really have glowing reads of them before Execution phase.

[Varsoon]

@Pooky: Pardon me if I have to take that defense with more than a pinch of salt given you're defending your own slot with that logic, too.
But I've definitely been on both sides of it--I've pushed scum that tried to rely on faking a town off-the-rails blowup and I've doubled down before on town that scummily death-tunneled me in return.
So I've seen how that sort of entrenchment can both win and ruin games, as town.
Which is why I'm hoping to distance from it best I can but ugh
You're not doing much to help me with that.
When I write 'convince you otherwise', I mean convince you that I'm convinced your slot is a scum slot. You're acting like I don't believe it. I do.
Regardless, you're not even the person I need to convince.
And also, there's no way you

know

that I have a role PM from the mod that says you're town, because there's no scenario where you'd know that unless we were both scum together.

@Raya: In general. But maybe the replacement meta for D1 has changed since I last played?

[Varsoon]

Oh well you'd need a stronger case than "Koba plays like an asshole" for me to be convinced that you really believe I'm scum and should be lynched.

Yeah, maybe read my case and don't literally twist my TL;DR into something I didn't write.
Perfectly fine with my vote staying on you.

[Varsoon]

this means you think there's a 70 percent chance pooky flip scum???

At 80% as of now.
That's reads-confidence, though. Like I'm 80% sure of a scum flip there.
The reality is that there's either 100% or 0%, though.
Or, I guess, even more realistically, 33.33%?

[Varsoon]

CTRL+F 'Asshole'
No Results

[Varsoon]

Yeah, maybe read my case and don't literally twist my TL;DR into something I didn't write.
Perfectly fine with my vote staying on you.

[Varsoon]

@Raya: In general. But maybe the replacement meta for D1 has changed since I last played?

Not replacement meta but I've played with Pooky once before and checked some of their meta and if I recall correctly I don't remember them ever catching up right away in their games they replaced into.

Ah, thanks for sharing this much, at least.

[Varsoon]

At this point, Dunn.
I'd really rather not do either, though. Not D1.

[Varsoon]

Lynching Raya is by far the worst thing you guys can do in this situation

because Raya townreads me.

I still think Dunnstral is scum, I scum reading him because I need to kill him at some point this game and I need to build up support for it relatively early.

Great stuff.

[Varsoon]

inconsistency with engagement/logic - asshole play
reactionary - asshole play
self serving - asshole play
attacks whoever pressuring them - asshole play.


I basically summarized your summary. Koba didn't play like an asshole because they're scum - koba played like an asshole because they are an asshole.

No,
Please actually read [my whole case]
'cus at [this]] point, couldn't you just characterize ALL scum play as 'asshole' play?

Hey, maybe instead of literally lying about what I'm writing in a TL;DR summary
Read the whole case I made.
You're not engaging with me here, Pooky.
And who says assholes can't be scum?
Like you're goalposting this shit so hard right now
"Oh so your argument is he is an asshole"
Which IS NOT my argument
Then you crossing your arms with
"Nah he's not scum, just an asshole"
Which is also not my conclusion either.

I really don't see why everyone else is avoiding your slot.
It makes me confident, at least, if you flip town here, then scum is hard-avoiding it so they don't get railed for hopping on.

[Varsoon]

I don't call him an asshole anywhere in my TL;DR.

[Varsoon]

inconsistency with engagement/logic - asshole play
reactionary - asshole play
self serving - asshole play
attacks whoever pressuring them - asshole play.

Inconsistent with engagement and logic speaks towards a player who is actively changing their approach to the game in order to best suit themselves--it isn't what town does. It benefits scum far more to be malleable with their logic and how they engage with players than town, who tend to play from the same basis consistently.

Reactionary play is far more likely to come from scum if the player slot is active in game otherwise--it speaks towards a player who is concerned with their own survival over solving the game and who will try to eliminate people they see as personal threats instead of playing towards a wincon of solving the game.

Self-serving goes hand in hand with the last point but is also the mentality of an informed minority instead of someone who needs to work with a team to solve the game and cinch a win.

Attacking who is pressuring them isn't the same as reactionary play, which can be defensive/preservationalist. Attacking other players who pressure you, especially when doing so is inconsistent with your read trajectory on them, is something I attribute to scum. Town often won't compromise their reads just because someone thinks their slot could be scum. Scum with no nightkill? Far more likely.

[Varsoon]

yes asshole is my term - not your term - I interpreted your case as basically tying together a bunch of traits more easily explained by koba being an asshole than koba being scum

I would appreciate it if you didn't mischaracterize my case in order to minimalize it.
You're making the argument that my points against Koba are points against Koba's personality and playstyle; I'm saying my arguments are cogent against scum.
The whole 'but it is just my PLAYSTYLE' thing is often an argument held up by scum and otherwise poor players. If your playstyle doesn't get you townread while eliminating the other team, it's a bad playstyle.

[Varsoon]

With no mechanical clears on any player, it's easy to reduce literally any criticism of play to "Oh you don't like my playstyle!"
Have a problem with Dunnstral coasting? That's just Dunnstral's playstyle.
Have issues with Nash hammering, disappearing, and otherwise distancing hard here? That's just Nash's playstyle!
Have issues with Pooky literally lying about what you said? Nah, that's Pooky's playstyle.

Though, if you are the Pooky I am thinking of, I can 100% confirm that I am town to you right now:
I am town.

[Varsoon]

Pretty sure I made this clear earlier.
I'm pushing the slot because I believe it to be scum.
You could actually read the fucking game and realize my trajectory is clear and that I've cased the slot and given my rationale for it.
Your litany of approaches to get me off of my ONE vote there are:
1. Telling me to kill myself/assume responsibility--something I wouldn't expect from town, blatant appeal to fear.
2. Lying about what my case is to argue a literal lie; that I am pushing someone over playstyle rather than perceived scumminess--I won't say town don't lie, but you're actively trying to handwave my points without actually engaging with them at all.
3. Sayiing that I don't believe a player is scum, which is another lie--only I know what I believe, Pooky. You don't have to take my word for it, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't literally lie to people about it, because;
This all strikes me as you trying to manipulate me and other players with lies in order to make your slot look more town.
That's not town play. That doesn't help solve a town wincon at all.
That's why I'm still voting your slot.

[Varsoon]

Already told you, I'm town.
You should know
I don't lie when I alignment claim.

P-EDIT:
Did you even read my case?
Cool that you're continuing to just characterize it by saying things like 'nonsense' or 'asshole' and not actually addressing any points at all or explaining how or why.
You know.
It's easy to lie, Pooky.
It's also easy to see when someone is lying.

[Varsoon]

This whole thing is reminding me way too much of Radiant Cowbells re: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=77564

unvote

Fuck that situation 1000%
Nope.
VOTE: Raya

P-EDIT:
@Pooky: The first ban I ever got on-site was for not lying about my alignment over multiple games, something I was told was 'The Pooky Tell'.
I was trying to signal to you that I'm town, hoping you'd get that.
Obviously, I'm not doing that bannable thing now, since I've got literally no games played in over a year and haven't set up a trend of 100% claiming alignment factually.
But since you are bringing it up, that's what that was.
So that renders it useless as a strategy to subtly 100% confirm to you.
Oh well.

[Varsoon]

Understand this, Pooky.
If we're both town here;
We have fundamentally different approaches to this game.

[Varsoon]

I was told it was something a user named 'Pooky' once did.
When I got banned for it, they literally retroactively made it a bannable offense and called it a 'Trust Tell'.

[Varsoon]

I've decided that
In order for me to grow and develop as a human being
I have to trust that you're town here and we've just got really different approaches to the game and I shouldn't scumread your approach.

[Varsoon]

Idk how deep I am tunneling here but I am really just reading Varsoons post as theater. Feels like an over reaction to the situation.

I am going to take a step back just to be sure, because it feels so wrong but also wouldn't surprise me. From the trust tell, to this, all while not actually being nominated just feels like an over reaction so he can fake emotion in order to get cleared for the end game due to the nature of this setup.

I've only had two bans that seriously affected me.
When I got my first ban over the 'Pooky Tell' or Trust Tells.
And when I got banned over my play in that one game with RC.
Who, hilariously, went on to be made Paragon in 2018 despite how toxic he was in that game, only to get banned for toxicity later in 2019.
But ayyyy I gotta learn and grow.
If you can't trust this, well.
It is what it is.
If you think this is faked emotion, I highly suggest you read my ISO in that Upicketypick game I linked.
It's disturbingly similar to this situation here.
I death-tunneled town because they responded to me with hostility that I read as alignment-motivated because town wouldn't respond to me like that, I thought.

[Varsoon]

We even had a "When I flip town, accept your lynch D2" exchange.

[Varsoon]

is RC Rosso Carne ?

Radiant Cowbells

[Varsoon]

Aw shit, dawg
Hey, Elbirn
Are you town?

[Varsoon]

Well,
I got a job teaching where I was expected to carry the load of 4 teachers despite it being my first year at the school and as a high school teacher.
The stress of the work and the mental abuse that my advisors ran me through had me so stressed I went into hypertension and passed out driving.
I quit that job and won't be able to teach again likely due to having pulled out of two different schools now (first was when my dad died and the school treated me like shit and students threatened my life too) and also my certificate ran out without me locking down a permanent position in order to upgrade it to a 5 year cert. So thousands of dollars and years of investment went down the drain thanks to work environments being infinitely more stressful than they should've been. Woo
I started totally-not-a-union at my new workplace so we could be paid a livable wage and change the workplace culture from treating us like trash
I was not offered a position to return to after my contract expired, despite being an exemplary employee otherwise
My fiance bought a house, had me help her paint and clean it, then left me for reasons that even she regrets but she won't come back because she would feel guilty over it all and like she was taking advantage of my kindness, which seems like a lie but whatever
I was in such financial and emotional stress that I gained a hundred pounds over the course of a year
I was rear-ended by someone, which ended up destroying my radiator since the car in front of me had a trailer hitch set up to pulverize anyone who rear-ended them, and the person who hit me drove away
My insurance did not cover it
Months later, I was rear-ended by a sheriff
He paid me off the books, but only after a month of delaying
During that month, my landlord threatened to have my cats killed and to evict me despite never breaking the terms of our lease
My car still isn't fixed because I had to use the cop's money to pay my rent payments ahead of schedule or I'd be evicted
I got a job at a call center despite being having 10+ years work experience, having taught for 3 years at college and high schools, and having post-graduate education
Then Coronavirus happened
I moved to a new apartment and the stress from it was awful and I'm still not unpacked a full month later
I'm only alive and afloat now thanks to government assistance over the virus, which ended as of this week as far as I am aware
One of my closest friends was hospitalized during a manic episode and I don't know why and I don't know his condition, but I've known he was suicidal for years so that's probably it
But I came back to mafiascum and I managed to avoid Radiant-Cowbells-DeathTunnel 2: Pooky Boogaloo so that's good, I think.


And, hey, it's not all bad. The girl that I love and who is the only woman who has never let me down (the 30+ girlfriends I've had over the last 15 years have largely been manipulative and abusive) is coming to visit all next week and she knows how I feel about her. As fate would have it, she's in a two-year long relationship that's on the decline but I don't want to be the person who ruins or ends that relationship for her. Were she not in that relationship, I would ask her to live with me. We've talked pretty extensively about this stuff, though. She feels strongly for me, too, but, again, she's dating this other guy.
I recently took a little roadtrip to see a friend and that was really nice.
My mom retired, found love after dad died, and is having a great retirement. She fishes, grows and sells her own produce, and is having a blast out in the country.
Final Fantasy 7 Remake came out and it's actually good.
I'm designing a few new theme games to run down the pipeline.
I'm still alive.
I'm financially and emotionally more secure than I've been in the whole last year.
So, you know, it's the small stuff.
How are you, bud?

[Varsoon]

Why should I be voting raya36 rn? I have read nothing so far

They're playing very safe but also not following up with play that'd be consistent with their stances.
Post 37 is especially rough for me, especially juxtaposed to their "Ya got me" ish coming on the next page. I've literally used that response as scum before, so it pings me hard.
Their stance re:DkKoba/Pooky really reeks of them actually going for low-hanging fruit until they realized the DkKoba wagon was gaining no traction and with the replace they've backed off in a way that's safe but indicates a real hard Scum v Town relationship. I originally had in mind that DkKoba/Pooky was scum and Raya was town via PoE but it makes more sense this way, now, given what I've realized about DkKoba especially.

[Varsoon]

Also, your other options to lynch today are:
Pooky, who is town.
Hellbooks, who is probably town.
or
Dunnstral, who might be town but Raya's positioned hard against and is calling a team of Me + Dunn, so y'know. I know I'm town and I had an early townread on Dunn that's faded due to Dunn's coasting but, like, it feels like maybe Raya's just sort'a parroted my stance on the thing while ALSO saying I'm scum which feels more than a bit sketch.

[Varsoon]

You've got a little over 48 hours, so arguably literally every player only needs to make 1 more post before the phase ends and that post doesn't have to contain a vote so, y'know, we're pretty much up shit creek if we don't have a majority of votes on an Execution candidate here, since scum gets to choose how to break all ties.

[Varsoon]

Don't have any great arguments for that.
I actually didn't like them for town before the execution phase started, but they've gotten more active and have just been really chilled out and level headed about stuff, engaging without a clear agenda, imo.
There was more than one time they could've taken Raya's side against me or, vice-versa, gone hard after DkKoba when I was, but they never really did.
That said, I did misremember and thought Raya posted viewtopic.php?p=11958820#p11958820 but, eeeeh, I can sort of see where a town player in hell's position might come to that conclusion regardless.

I guess the TL;DR here is that hellbook's process feels town-genuine to me, even if their conclusions aren't always great.
I'd probably be more critical of them costing during nomination phase if they didn't have IRL stuff going on then.
I also can see how someone might think their voting in Execution phase has been opportunistic but it just doesn't feel that way to me.

[Varsoon]

If you aren't voting, your next post should include a vote.

As of writing this post, the deadline is in 48 hours. ALL PLAYERS only need to post once every 48 hours. We're dangerously close to just having to be forced to plurality or, worse, SCUM DECIDING WHICH OF US DIES.
The deadline is in (expired on 2020-07-07 16:54:09), at which point the execution will be decided via plurality.
With no clear plurality, the mafia team will privately break any ties.

[Varsoon]

If you aren't voting, your next post should include a vote.

[Varsoon]

Yukino, failure to vote either of the candidates at L-1 right now means that scum get to decide which to kill.

[Varsoon]

Forcing a switch one way or another and it ending up being a townflip is just as bad (if not worse) than letting scum decide who dies.

[Varsoon]

That's why I'm saying it's worse if it's a scramble for plurality that lands on town because:
1. Now we have to WIFOM the hell out of the switch itself
2. We're left with less info from a scum-decided execute between two slots
3. We've still got the other slot that was switched from to consider and contend around

Yeah man I've been through the ringer.
Good news is CARES act goes through July, afaik.

[Varsoon]

Scum pick is worse if it's Scum v Town.
Town going from one wagon to the other is worse if the other flips town.
Basically.
Yukino should choose which of these two gets hammered, ideally.

[Varsoon]

I don't see the case for hellbooks, really, so if someone could explain that, it'd help.

[Varsoon]

Scum knows better than anyone, though, that this is nightless. Pocketing allies is more important than having a big lynch pool, since setup design basically means scum will have to push through at least 3 mislynches.

[Varsoon]

I've washed my hands of it entirely because I know that my position re:Pooky is personally biased and clouds my judgment on the actual slot alignment.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Raya
Glad I set an alarm for this.

[Varsoon]

Wait, shit, we still don't have majority
Why did I think
Fuck I still need to wake up

[Varsoon]

I mean, Pooky's not going to vote themselves, so.
By posting here and not voting Pooky, it's obvious I'm townreading them enough to not lynch them.

[Varsoon]

Well, that sucked.

[Varsoon]

As of right now, I want to Nominate Elbirn.

[Varsoon]

I don't want the scum to control any aspect of this game.

[Varsoon]

It's still info they control.
And if they know we're planning on actually doing anything with the info, they still can play around that.
I don't think we should ever give scum any control.

[Varsoon]

I think it makes sense to nominate scum, because then we're still controlling at least 1 scum-read being in the nomination bracket.

[Varsoon]

Your slot was scummin' it up last day and then basically ducked under the radar entirely, replaced out, and left us with you.
Still not amazed with everything you've laid down so far and I want you to be put into a position where you actually have to engage with the game.

[Varsoon]

'cus the way I'm seeing things--the people who don't end up nominated just coast really fucking hard.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Yukino
I'm on board for this.

[Varsoon]

Who do you think the scum in this game are, Pooky?

[Varsoon]

why would I put my scumpartner at L-1 ? -.-

Distancing and woke strats?
I've bussed partners and even hammered them before.
VOTE: Elbirn

[Varsoon]

Don't get why hellbooks is up there unless you really want to resolve yesterday's Raya v Hellbooks dealio.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Dunn

Not thrilled, but if it flips scum, big shrugs.

[Varsoon]

You've had the longest amount of time to let me down in this game.
I'm just not seeing any of that town drive that I'm used to from you.
Whereas low-effort Elbirn is kinda just the smokescreen that dude lives in even as town.

[Varsoon]

This is a really weird time for you to be getting self-righteous about that, why didn't this happen day 1? Why did you lynch Raya?

'cus I thought Raya was scum.

There's scum between Yukino/Elbirn gauranteed

Ask yourself who you think my partner is if I'm scum

Real talk.
I'm really willing to believe in an Elbirn/Yukino team
UNVOTE:
Tell me more.

[Varsoon]

I'mma be honest and real here
I pushed that mafia decides angle so hard that mafia would WIFOM themselves into voting and breaking ties.

[Varsoon]

I think I only ever agree with you when I'm pocketing you

[Varsoon]

i really wanted to vote dunn but now I'm getting cold feet cuz he's leading

wild

I mean it'd be a hammer, and idk maybe more time to think this game out would be neat. Whatchu thinking about pooky?

I think I see what you're laying down here and that's kinda cute
Dunno if it makes you town, but it's cute if I'm right.
Mention this post-game.

[Varsoon]

I am trying to think of Dunnstrals buddy and I am still leaning towards Dunnstral?

Yes, I suspect if Dunnstal is scum, they're probably on the same team as Dunnstral. (I also get what you meant with this sentence; that you're coming up blank with who Dunn's scumbuddy would be but you still scumread Dunn, it's just funny to read it as you thinking Dunn might be scum with Dunn.)

Anyway.
My read on you has really, really waned since D1, especially with the Raya townflip and your voting in the last bit of time there.
The problem is that, well
I don't really have much to go on this game and no matter what, I keep seeing myself having such low-confidence lynches that two more mislynches are inevitable
And that kinda sucks to think about.

[Varsoon]

Raya flipping town basically makes me think one of two things:
1. Pooky's slot is scum. But I'm not going to ever go back on my townread there, so I can't accept this.
2. Scum was definitely outside of the pool yesterday, meaning scum is in the Elbirn or Yukino slot.
But then I have to think:
Was Nash just open-scumming with how they were playing?
And I've already discussed my confidence in townreading Yukino wavering a lot.
And at the same time, I like Elbirn, so I don't really wanna lynch Elbirn.
So then it's like
Ugh.
What do I even do?
Do I just go with the Nash/Elbirn lynch 'cus that's the best shit I've got right now?
I'm just not in a good headspace here.

P-EDIT: Hey, wait, dawg, didn't I try to fake-claim masons with you one time? iirc I was scum and you were town that game, but big shrugs

[Varsoon]

Basically, when I was looking at the ways people would be aligned in teams and what made sense:
Raya couldn't be scum with DkKoba/Pooky--I was confident in a redflip from DkKoba that would solidify a townread on Raya, but we obviously didn't go that route.
DkKoba/Pooky and Hellbooks actually have a lot of patterns of being likely allies. DkKoba was generally willing to let Hellbooks slide with a lot of the same low-effort stuff they were critical of elsewhere. Felt inconsistent to me.
Otherwise, though, the Raya execution was pushed through by Varsoon, Elbirn, Yukino, PookyTheMagicalBear. I'm town. Yukino and you (Elbirn) were both outside of the pool yesterday.
As for:
1. If I scumread there and push it, it'll result in a ban. If I get banned, then my slot is removed from the game and town's much likelier to lose. Even then, I readily acknowledge that my read was hugely biased by playstyle indicators and while, I, Varsoon, the player, hold that playstyle is entirely what people should be judged on, I also realize that I was taking umbrage with what could very well just be an approach from town that I don't like at all. If I just tell myself, "Nope, I don't want to go down the RadiantCowbells road again" and I just townread the slot forever, then I never have to worry about it.
2. Welp.

[Varsoon]

Like yeah there's a very real possibility that scum is just Pooky-Hellbooks but I'm never gonna catch that team because I'm too cucked by past mistakes.

[Varsoon]

Been down that road before

[Varsoon]

Even if it's scum
the resulting death-tunnel wouldn't be healthy for the game or anyone involved.

[Varsoon]

If this game had a night kill, I feel like I would be left alive because I'm actively leading town in the wrong directions.
My issue is that it seems like no one else is really taking charge or trying to figure things out.
It bums me right the fuck out.

[Varsoon]

Yukino feels like they're playing it safe and was especially absent post-nomination D1, then there was all that wagon chicanery at the last minute.
There are players other than me to engage with, homedawg mc dawg dawg.
But yeah, it's like:

Dunnstral - Not bringing their A-game, feels phoned in, feels scum despite having a start I was confident in.
Yukino - Had a decent pre-nomination D1, then proceeded to just disappear and play sloppy.
Hellbrooks - Off the cuff, generally not amazing play but more towny-apparent than everyone else, but could just be scum chilling.
Nash - Elbirn - Sloppy as hell pre-nomination D1, replaced out, and you're just kinda around but not making any waves either.
DkKoba - Pooky - Was absolutely convinced this was scum, the Raya townflip should convince me even more, but I also felt like when I was pushing there, no one else at all wanted to join me on this wagon, there was SO MUCH fucking resistance and Pooky's played in a way where I can't even push them without getting into rhetorical semantics and being frustrated with the whole thing.

Basically, if I had to realistically tier stuff out right now?
I'd be looking for scum in Elbirn/Pooky.

But I've got a lot of personal issues with doing that because
1. I was driving the game D1, no one gave a SHIT about my whole case on the Pooky slot except for Pooky, who had reasons I hate for why I shouldn't be pushing it--then I compromised by executing out Raya who flipped town, so my reads confidence is absolute trash right now.
2. It feels like no one else is even playing this game most of the time. I want to give you space and time to DO SOMETHING to give me confidence in reading your slot, Elbirn, but you really haven't and I can't even hold you that accountable because the same applies to EVERY SLOT IN THIS GAME.

[Varsoon]

Basically, I think the core mechanic of this game is a wash and, at least here, has killed a lot of player engagement.
So long as all players are on the chopping block for Execution, it gives intrinsic motivation to play the game.
Simply playing to wincon isn't enough to motivate lazy-ass town.
Scum wins by default.

[Varsoon]

Fuggit
VOTE: Dunnstral
Time to lose game

[Varsoon]

It's incredibly possible.

[Varsoon]

[Varsoon]

Time to lose to the lamest scumteam, I guess.
We're in MYLO

[Varsoon]

Hey, Dunnstral
Next game
Do more, please.
I was constantly looking back an Excalibur and thinking
"Man Dunnstral should be way more IN this."
But maybe effort is only something you invest as scum?
I don't know.
I guess yes Alignment =/= Effort
But damn man.
Damn.
I'm really fucking up here.

[Varsoon]

I mean it's literally a 50/50 shot of hitting scum here, at least.

[Varsoon]

So the real question is
Who do I even push out here
I kinda want to lynch all of you.
'cus it's like:
Elbirn, your slot sucks ass. You pushing out on Dunnstral sucked ass. You made me compromise myself and now I've gotta dig out of this pit or apathy into game-loss.
Pooky, if you're scum here, it's unforgivable, I hope you understand. That'd mean that DkKoba's replace out was for alignment reasons, which is already a bannable offense (iirc), but it also means you're just open scumming while telling me I can't push you because of nonsense. I don't want to walk the path of hatred, but, damn if I don't want to lynch you right now and feel vindicated by a red flip. If you flip green, though, I'll feel like I'm just making the SAME mistakes, ruining games over my own fucking selfishn bullheadedness
Yukino, you need to lay down more game. You're notoriously absent and it sucks ass.
Hellbooks, I really want to believe you're town, but you need to step it up. If you're green and we lynch you and we lose, you deserve this loss just as much as me.

[Varsoon]

And yes
I do realize how scummy it is of me to be like
"LOL I COULD LYNCH ANYONE"
But this is what happens when you all play the way you have.

[Varsoon]

And yeah I should probably use 'Execute' over 'Lynch'.
My B.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, you know what, fuck it.
VOTE: Elbirn
Time to roll the dice.
I'm beyond caring.

[Varsoon]

Well, that's reassuring.
Regardless.
I've decided it's Elbirn.
You all can take your time but
This time I'm not going to change my mind.

[Varsoon]

I've spent this whole game changing my mind and it's resulted in town flip after town flip.

[Varsoon]

Good.
This makes it easier.
If we can just lock who the third town is, we win.

P-EDIT:
Glad we're on the same page.

[Varsoon]

Cool news is you're on both those highlighted wagons, too.
Anyway if I'm wrong it's whatever, I suck ass and deserve to take the L.

[Varsoon]

I agree, El-B.
This game got me all in my head about shit.
Maybe we can get that holy grail of rolling scum together, who knows?
All I know is my town game is wack right now.

P-EDIT:
It's all good, Yukino.
If you're town here, gravy.
If you're scum here, congrats on the e-z win?
I'unno.

[Varsoon]

I'm willing to throw the game on Elbirn / Hellbook

[Varsoon]

[Varsoon]

I'm usually pretty extra, yes.
I'd nominate Elbirn and Hellbooks.

[Varsoon]

Huh?
Did you miss the part where I said literally everyone's up for lynch?
If anything, my locktown of Pooky should be what you call out.
I'm fine with a lynch on anyone but Pooky.
Yukino's last page looked really town to me, though
If that's 'locktown' then biggest of shrugs
Shadow my Daisies

[Varsoon]

I don't buy what you're selling re:pooky. You had them as scum and just gave up and said they have to be town because of no reason other than you just refuse to push them anymore

Its whack

read the game I linked, brother.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, sure
Anyone could have a scum PM.
EZ PZ

[Varsoon]

It ain't even a time I TvT, someone, Elbirn. That shit happens on the regular.
I linked a game where I death-tunneled Radiant Cowbells and read their toxicity as scum play rather than toxic play.
I was so convinced that they were either scum or a total piece of shit
And when they twisted that against me
I was just convinced they were a piece of shit regardless of align
And the push became so violent and incendiary that I was warned over it
So I pulled back on it, distanced hard, realized I was probably biased
But then I just saw Radiant Cowbells continuing to be a scummy shitstain
And I thought, "No, I can't let this person live, I can't let scum conflate my push with their own toxicity, my read there is INFORMED."
And then I got executed over it, voted out on D1, flipped town with a great role.
And then they were town the whole time.
And I ate a ban over things I wrote.
And town lost that game.
Not a single flip on scum.
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=77564

I don't want to repeat that.
I don't want to eat another ban.
I need to learn and grow.

[Varsoon]

Yukino is probably town, Pooky.
I'd say we start with Elbirn or Hell.
I'd rather go Elbirn, tbh.

[Varsoon]

Yukino is probably town

Why?

I just like their posts more than yours and Hellbooks'.

[Varsoon]

Nominator Vote 3.02

Elbirn (2):

Varsoon, PookyTheMagicalBear

PookyTheMagicalBear (1):

Elbirn

hellbooks (1):

Yukino

Yukino (1):

hellbooks

Not Voting (0):

With 5 players alive, it takes 3 to decide a nominator via majority.
Deadline is in (expired on 2020-07-15 15:39:34), at which point the nominator will be decided via plurality.
With no clear plurality, the mafia team will privately break any ties.

That vote split indicates something hard to me.
Do you think a hellbooks/Yukino team cross-busses here in LYLO?
I don't, but it is just NOMINATION and not EXECUTION.
Even still.

[Varsoon]

Sorry, Elby, but I can't accept Pooky as scum here.
If he is, it's whatever, this game was a wash, but I want to believe in a world where that's not the case.

[Varsoon]

This whole page is what gives me pause re:Hellbooks
But honestly
If we're right on Elbirn as scum and with Pooky town, then
We can afford an ML after a red flip on Elbirn anyway.

[Varsoon]

Anyway, pls do fuck around and hammer Elbirn.

[Varsoon]

im thinking we just vote me for nominator and I get elbirn that way

Nah, we nom the scum pick.
I'm not flinching from this.

[Varsoon]

We're going to need the SAME MAJORITY for an Execution anyway so, it's like
We aught as well do it the way we had planned.

[Varsoon]

Literally all of town is going to have to be on scum (bussing aside)
Or we lose and it's whatever.
We'll find out real quick I'm sure.

[Varsoon]

I'm just waiting to see if that was a scum claim, Elby.

[Varsoon]

It's certainly dramatic play, though, right?
All in, All or Nothing, etc.
And, homie, if you are town, I would never blame you for this loss.
Town loses as a TEAM.
And you know I'm too much a narcissist to blame anyone but myself.

[Varsoon]

So.
Here's my take.
Hot fast vote from Elbirn in LYLO?
That's not town, is it?
That's scum baiting a quick Pooky Execute.
That's scum throwing it all at Pooky and hoping anyone, just one person will take the bait so his partner can snatch the victory, right?
'cus I don't think Elbirn would play so reckless.
But maybe, maybe, in the time I've been gone, I've either forgotten Elbirn is as much a madman as I am or he's become one to fill the void I left.

[Varsoon]

But here's the thing that does give me hesitance.
No one else has voted yet.
Surely
Surely town-Pooky would've had the confidence to vote, right?
Right though?
Yukino and Hellbooks both strike me as 'take in the info and play it slow' types.
I'm just
Really worried about that
Town vote into scum quickhammer for game win.
But
We're all accounted for here
And so this means
Between Elbirn and Pooky
One must be scum otherwise
Scum (WITH DAYCHAT) aren't playing to wincon.
So
We've got one scum between Elbirn or Pooky.
Heck
Maybe it's a big ole bus even
Who knows
But
At least 1 scum in the two of them.
Confirmed.

[Varsoon]

As for the possibility of a bus, it's like
Maybe it's because they realized they'd need town in on this and I was so adamantly Elbirn-focused?
I don't know.
But it seems like such an outlandish LYLO strategy otherwise.
It's just
No matter how I angle it
I see Elbirn-scum here.

[Varsoon]

Thoughts are that tracks enough for me to roll the dice on an Elbirn vote/Execute.
VOTE: Elbirn
Let's see if I don't eat shit for it.
And if I do, well.
This one's on me, dudes.
Next time, I'll be less garbo.

[Varsoon]

[Varsoon]

Cool, so I was right all along and DkB did an aligned replace-out and Pooky exploited me emotionally.
Cool cool cool.

[Varsoon]

Sorry, Elbirn.
I should have just trusted my dipshit gut.
But the DkB replace out and Pooky quickly pulling that Radiant Cowbells shit had me nope out hard.
I should've replaced out myself, because my own judgment was compromised by out of game factors.

[Varsoon]

What a fucking wash.
Scum didn't deserve this victory at all.
Town just played like shit, me most of all.

[Varsoon]

DkKoba had to replace out of all of their games due to outside circumstances

Didn't help that I pushed there hard and they immediately dipped.
Replacements ruin/compromise games regardless of circumstances.

[Varsoon]

Page 2 reads way too self-conscious coming out of how seriously town is discussing holding people accountable.
Their response to me also sucks and, again, is way too self-conscious.
Asks Yukino for more but lets hellbrooks slide on the same page (pg3)[/spoiler]

[Varsoon]

Yeah, it really hard-influenced how I felt and made me walk away with a read I was absolutely confident on.
I literally had the scum team pinned Day 1. I had the game solved in the above.

[Varsoon]

That and then the Nash replace after that rough play from the slot into Elbirn just coasting out fucking blew ass and scum exploited that.
Ugh.
Big ugh.

[Varsoon]

If someone replaces out in any game I run, I'm just going to abandon game.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, I knooow.
I'll just have to deal with it.
I don't know.
I just hate it.
And right now I really feel awful for basically doubling down on some shit I wouldn't have if DkKoba had just stayed in slot.

[Varsoon]

Like I was so ready to execute scum on D1
Which would've cleared Raya as town for me
Which would've led me to execute on hellbooks or Yukino D2/D3
Which would've been game win
But everyone else phoned this in, it felt like.
Ugh.

[Varsoon]

At least I was right on hellbooks as town.
Hum ho.

[Varsoon]

Sorry, Elbirn.
Next time, let's be masons.
Find a game for me to queue in with you.
Ensure Pooky and DkKoba aren't in it though, 'cus, ugh, I can't deal with that right now.

[Varsoon]

It's just a reminder for myself:
Don't ever fall for emotional manipulation.
If someone like Pooky or RC is gonna act like my push is against THEM as a person and LIE about what my words even are, fuck them, they can get lynched every time.
And if they're town, fuck them harder, they can lose for playing that way.
I've got to trust my instincts more rather than being shackled by not wanting to hurt someone's feelings because even if I am a big softie, this is a GAME where people will exploit my kindness and that's fucked up and leaves me feeling abused.

[Varsoon]

I didn't soulread them as town.
I compromised my scumread because I didn't want to be emotionally abused in a game again and eat a ban for it and stress over some dumb bullshit
So it was easier to just go "Fuck it, they're town, and if they aren't, I lose and I can then justify scumreading shitheads who try to emotionally manipulate me in future games"
So it's a win for me, even if I'm a bit bitter

[Varsoon]

Cool I'll just uh keep deducing scum teams and getting shit on by my own team, cool game

I'm sorry, brother.
I should have never doubted you.
Next time, we'll crush those posers.
Or I'll be one of them and you can get your revenge.