Micro 955: Variant Nomination Mafia (Game Over)

[Yukino]

I don't think the game has started so we can't vote.
Does this setup have any strategies in particular?

I think we should nominate a scummy player and not worry about who they pick. That player gets a chance to outline thoughts in a way to help redirect us in the case the we are wrong. Or if we nominate scum and they pick a whole bunch of obvious towns they just die anyway because we already scum read them in the first place.

Compare this to picking a clear town player who happens to not agree on consensus scum, then we just are out of luck.

[Yukino]

At the time of my confirmation 5/7 confirmed.
Meaning 1 player confirmed and decided not to post.

I think that indicates scum being in Varsono and Hellbook

[Yukino]

VOTE: hellbook

I will vote hellbook now for my reasons mentioned in my last set of posts.

I think Nash has a really solid energy and aura to him so he has earned my first town read. I can pull up quotes and break this down further if someone would like.

[Yukino]

I am not going to give Dkkoba the same read mainly because agreeing with a read is relatively easy. Going out into the dark to state a read being unsure how it will be received is townie. This is combined with his energy I am viewing as town.

Feeling good about this game given there is only seven of us and I already feel pretty decent about a read.

[Yukino]

What a boring entrance, you can do better then that!

[Yukino]

VOTE: hellbook

I will vote hellbook now for my reasons mentioned in my last set of posts.

I think Nash has a really solid energy and aura to him so he has earned my first town read. I can pull up quotes and break this down further if someone would like.

how are u making townreads this fast?

[Yukino]

Imma need better than that chief

Scum does not want to be lynched for having a conflicting play style to others, it doesn't matter if you're obvious town to the people you are familiar with if none of them are in the game. As a game begins to start scum tend to sit back and wait to see what town will do before acting. Basically letting town decide the pace of the game and scum match it. So a player who opens up with a very early read is town 90% of the time. Now let's break down his tone.

Spoiler:

I don't think the game has started so we can't vote.
Does this setup have any strategies in particular?

I think we should nominate a scummy player and not worry about who they pick. That player gets a chance to outline thoughts in a way to help redirect us in the case the we are wrong. Or if we nominate scum and they pick a whole bunch of obvious towns they just die anyway because we already scum read them in the first place.

Compare this to picking a clear town player who happens to not agree on consensus scum, then we just are out of luck.

I agree with nominating the scummiest player.
Assuming we lynch at random, that puts us at 43% win, I think?

If we manage to guess two towns, we shoot up to 90%.
My guess right now is Yukino and DkKoba

These posts I read tonally as town, he makes an idea regarding the odds of us winning the game, then plays in a way to up those odds. Normally this would just be a fluff information post, but I think the way he picked up 2 fast shot in the dark reads to say "now we are at 90% to win" shows he is using the information to try and win the game rather then just state thoughts.

Spoiler:

At the time of my confirmation 5/7 confirmed.
Meaning 1 player confirmed and decided not to post.

I think that indicates scum being in Varsono and Hellbook

this is a likely town post and if they're telling the truth we narrowed down at least 1 mafia pretty quick.

I agree with the town ping. Disagree with the scumtell.

Scum favor making attacks over town reads, since you need to lynch town to win and scum reads tend to get you town read more often then scum reads do. So I think choosing to ignore something he didn't agree with and call me town instead is a good look. Especially given he doesn't seem to have a scum read yet so as scum he would still need to figure out some kind of push moving forward.

[Yukino]

Yukino: "Scum favor making attacks over town reads" : I understand the logic here, but I want to be frank with you; if you really hold this to be true, you coming in declaring hard townreads would then be play that could hide your status as scum, no? I'm of the mind that pinning any sort of behavior as 'scum behavior' only lets scum manipulate and play around what people hold to be consensus.

A good read is built on a multitude of tells, town and scum are capable of doing anything, no matter how good you think your tell is you can't use just one. Between his mechanics posts and following up on it, him calling my take bad and choosing to not attack me and him sticking his head out so early I have enough to call him town. If he is playing to what I think is town on so many different levels then I guess good for him? I can readjust later if he starts to go south but I like where I am at with that read. So I don't think you're wrong to say scum could put into their head they need to make a strong entry or any other tell, I just think that if scum try and emulate the multiple behaviors I am calling town they'll fumble making a good argument to back up what they're doing game.

[Yukino]

I'll come back soon with some reads instead of mainly just mechanics

I will await your return, what are your thoughts on the Koba and Varsoon interaction so far?

[Yukino]

I'm always around.
I don't see the logic you're laying out for Yukino being town based on that post.
Paying such hard attention to confirms/signups strikes me as someone extra excited to begin--that sort of excitement in a game that hasn't begun is usually indicative of an interesting role; the only interesting roles in this game are scum.
Coming in with an out-of-game rationale / argument around posting for someone definitely being scum between only two players isn't the sort of thing I'd expect town to propose, either.
So I don't understand why you'd read that act as a town act.

I mean I have the bias of knowing why I am particularly engaged in this game. Being a returning player, I am on an alt to avoid certain people. Honestly I quit for that reason over anything to do with the game itself. Lots of people put in incredible amounts of effort as a VT in theme games where there is an expectation to at least be a power role. I don't think a 2013 user would not realize that?

I think so many variables outside the game can make someone excited for a game, player lists, moderators, general desire to play the game and the list goes on. You haven't seen anyone pay so much attention to confirmations before? That's why leaving games open and bolding who confirmed fell out of favor because people like to read into it maybe on my part doing so is in poor taste but I won't choose to ignore things in front of me. Why pay so much attention to specifically whether or not someone got a scum role pm to determine excitement? To some degree I could see that as a perspective slip being you were excited to see one yourself. Or your thoughts right now just tend to be incredibly linear to come to certain results, which isn't how I tend to see town approach the game. Right now you're the one asking questions in your engagement so I am trying to get myself into your head right now.

Am I just naively disrupting your attempt at pressure right now? Is their a level of nuance to why you don't like that sequence went over my head? Or some other third variable that is making me misunderstand what is going on? I am just trying to look into your head right now and I don't really understand why your pushing this point.

The same applies for Raya, I think a lack of day 1 confidence is incredibly standard. And it's very early to call her out on not trying to develop day 1 reads when she is commenting on other aspects of the game before she gets the ball rolling. Other players are also playing relatively slowly she just happens to be the one that overtly said it. Why her over Hellbook or Dunnstral being players who are just going with the flow. I preferred Raya's take because it showed a level of emotion and frustration with her own play in it while Dunnstral and Hellbook are more or less just hiding in the back lines right now.

[Yukino]

@Yukino Do you really think that's a scumtell? I mean I almost did it too. And not posting early game after confirming doesn't make you scum. There are so many factors. Any why not Varsoon?

Ok I'll be serious since we have a thread now and real content to work with. I was doing it to apply pressure and create discussion. I think that tell points to scum to a very slight margin but it's more something I'd use to break a mental tie breaker between 2 players then an actual line of reasoning I'd use to outright kill someone. I still want Hellbook to post better content so I voted them but they seem to just be very disengaged so I doubt I am actually helping right now. Even not thinking that tell is as offensive as what I believe it to be, I've seen players use it many times so I don't get why Varsoon thinks it isn't reasonable I did it.

I am not voting Varsoon because I don't think pressuring him for that reason is productive, given he is engaging with the thread anyway pretty actively even at the time of that post.

[Yukino]

bc u sound like u are spewing lmao

Can you elaborate now or when you are sober?
I am not following what part of the post you are talking about.

[Yukino]

@Dkkoba why not put Varsoon in the pool. I am going to read up real fast, I am a bit busy until Friday.

[Yukino]

Ok so I can I think the whole "I see myself doing lt doing this as scum" argument Varsoon keeps making is relatively wolfy. As a whole its a very easy argument to make and it applies to a wide range of situations without the opening for much counter argument or need for further explanation. I think it's an argument town can make but I also think Varsoon has other issues throughout his slot.

My other wolf read of the game is Nash for the quick hammer and saying he wasn't aware of the vote count. Idk I just think he was aware and did it anyway to try and lynch or distance from DKKoba.

My read on Koba is dependant on how they answer why they didn't leave Varsoon to die which feels contradictory to what they were doing in the prior phase. Unless I misremember the game state.

[Yukino]

In the current pool I guess Hellbook is fine? They have the lowest amount of presence in the group but I could also see myself voting Dunnstral. I am not particularly confident about either being scum but comparatively to Raya and Koba they are worse.

[Yukino]

It's not just about me you made the argument of "scum me would consider doing that" towards Koba as well. Otherwise I probably would have ignored you saying that.

Maybe I just have a pet peeves towards that argument because I am aware town can use it, but you are using it multiple times. Give me a hot sec to read 96 again to give you my thoughts on it.

I have been trying to decide if we are players who conflict very heavily by nature or I'd you are just scum. And I am leaning towards the latter right now.

Pedit: it's ok that's why I asked for you

[Yukino]

@Yukino:

To be fair, I was excited for gamestart due to the moderator and it's my first game in over a year.
All said, I'm also considering this from a moderator point of view, since I mod much more than I play.
If a player of mine was looking at player confirmation/posting in pre-game and trying to leverage that as an advantage, I'd think they're either:
1. Shortsighted and avoiding engaging with the rhetorical aspects of the game.
2. Trying to leverage something as a discussion point and potential rationale to push for a lynch, which is scummy.
I get the points made that coming in and doing something like that could put a target on you, which would be something scum would want to avoid, but making that as a counterargument is entirely the kind of WIFOM I'd expect from scum who realize the advantages of leveraging mechanical/setup rubbish against town. It's easy to take the position of "If someone calls me out, I can just say I was making an observation and potentially even fishing for scum to push me over it or lean into my faulty logic." I find that scum players will often deal with the unplayed moments as both defense and argument against others.

I could get more into it, but it's safe to say that if you've been on-site for awhile on your main, you're probably familiar with me and how unconventional my approach to the game can be. If you're not, well. That's how it is.
A lot of my play is informed by how I've seen others play while modding and through what feels right in the moment of play. I'm a very read-by-gut player. As much as I talk about meta, I also hold it to be only useful for informing one's approach and not really defining alignment, since I expect people to be cognizant enough of their own meta to play contrary to it.

I don't think we have played together before. None the less I don't plan on using meta regardless that is just unfair unless it's just blatantly wronging someone to not.

I think this argument is just wifom with extra steps, I am aware this is an incredible over simplification I just think it's a weird entrance to focus on and I don't particularly understand why you are putting so much stock into it. Along with the "I'd do that as scum" argument which just feels like deflection. And maybe you are right that you are just a different style of player and this is just incredibly large playstyle clash at hand.

But I also am trying to see the town elements of the argument which I currently am having trouble seeing.


With all your talk about approaching the days slowly what do you think of Nash?
Who do you want to vote in the available pool?

[Yukino]

I think meta is a valuable tool, why refuse to use it?

I think it's unfair to use it while on an alt, people don't have my meta so that's that. + It compromises my alt to go into.

[Yukino]

vote: Dunnstral

Actually Dunnstral is just coasting and I hate it.

[Yukino]

Why am I about to be placed at L-1? Not seeing reasons from hellbooks or raya

Your town read from me is wearing thin. I townread you for sharing the same thoughts on mechanics with me which I believe to be the most pro-town. However your first 7 posts are only mechanics. After that within all your posts all you say is something is a weak attempt at a town slip and that nash is suspicious. You even state you don't have strong reads on the lynch pool players but you're not doing anything to better your reads.

Part of me wants to say you're town for not trying that hard when you are 1/4 players that can be lynched. I would expect scum to be putting in effort to not get lynched since it's obvious coasting won't work when you're 25% of the focus. But I'm gonna need more than that

It's a nightless setup he could not want to stick his head out because everything he says has to be backed up in the late game.
He could simply just not care.

But I find that he isn't even doing much in the form of commenting on people being scum to such a large degree that I don't really think he is town

[Yukino]

What about the nature of Hellbook lurking puts them below Dunn for you?
I actually disliked the mechanical posting then dipping, over hellbook chilling doing his thing, not sure if that's town or scum doing his thing but it's above Dunn on the POE.

[Yukino]

Lynching Raya is by far the worst thing you guys can do in this situation.
I still think Dunnstral is scum, he is scum reading me because he needs to kill me at some point this game and he needs to build up support for it relatively early. Or he is scum trying to build a bad looking interaction with me to also get me lynched.

If you want to persuade me on Hellbook you can but that's what I am feeling right now.

I still think Pooky/Koba is town and the other scum is likely just Varsoon.
Maybe I am wrong and it's Nash, my early read kinda lost all it's value after that hammer, if he was open about it I probably would give him a pass. But when he simply just said "oopsies" it rubbed me the wrong way.

[Yukino]

Can you consolidate it to one post? I just don't see them as fluffy or non committal as you are saying, I think they've expressed the same as most other players that they'd rather lynch outside the pool we currently have which is the reason for an alleged complacency .

I am not particularly happy both Nash and Varsoon are outside the pool but what can you do?

[Yukino]

Don't get me wrong I don't have a strong reason to defend them, I just prefer Dunnstral by a good margin.

[Yukino]

Idk how deep I am tunneling here but I am really just reading Varsoons post as theater. Feels like an over reaction to the situation.

I am going to take a step back just to be sure, because it feels so wrong but also wouldn't surprise me. From the trust tell, to this, all while not actually being nominated just feels like an over reaction so he can fake emotion in order to get cleared for the end game due to the nature of this setup.

[Yukino]

Blehh I really need to read this over a few times, and I want a 2nd opinion on this.

[Yukino]

I don't see myself killing Raya.
I'll review and make a decision later.

This is kinda interesting, I could be in this spot because I make the wrong choice but it's also too early to say this is orchestrated?

[Yukino]

Varsoon probably town now, blah blah, not even going to bother expanding.

[Yukino]

I have 20 hours, which means I should probably vote before I go to sleep, I see myself forgetting to check up on this game morning.
Sorry I think I've lost motivation at some point, z-z not being able to vote Varsoon earlier and Nash now really hurt my motivation even though scum is probably in this pool on review.

Is team hellbooks based on something outside best of the available options, because I am not saying I disagree but if their is something more I would like to know.

[Yukino]

Feel free to reexplain Raya, although I believe I understand that case.

[Yukino]

Case Hellbook, counter the case on yourself.
Either of those would help me out greatly!!!


If you think Hellbook isn't scum and both scum are outside the pool feel free to case them instead.
Idk anything to chew on really, I am all ears.

[Yukino]

I just found Raya to be relatively proactive compared to the rest off the pool?

I think the way Raya just disregarded the fact she always town reads Dunnstral to just do it anyway very openly means she is probably town.
At the very start of the game I found her to be townie although her momentum has kind of fell off. Maybe it isn't fair that I am not pressuring her for that but idk.

She is also defending Koba/Pooky very hard, this is a nightless setup where you need to lynch everyone. Not really sure why she would lock off so many lynches. I just really vibe with the loose nature of her posts in the current setup. It's incredibly townie to me.

[Yukino]

Hellbook isn't Dunnstral but at the very least it doesn't involve me voting Raya.

[Yukino]

Wait why is Hellbook noticing I declared I would vote them and saying "let's compromise on Pooky" something they can't do as scum?

Also why aren't we wagoning Dunn?

[Yukino]

Pooky wagon is kinda bad. Can we not kill obvious town due to apathy?
This just doesn't sit well with me.

[Yukino]

if ppl are gonna throw shade at the wagon can it at least be concrete?

It's built on the basis of "why not" which I think tends to come from a combination of either scum driven or town onto town wagons.
You literally voted him because you don't want to see the other 2 die and are now complaining I don't have a solid reason to shade the wagon?
I don't think you had a solid reason to build the wagon in the first place.

I also do not believe that the interactions with Varsoon are even slightly indicative that Pooky is scum here. Not to mention he replaced into the Koba slot who I also thought was playing like town.

Do you believe it's odd or could be scum indicative that you still can't establish a read onto Dunnstral by now?

[Yukino]

VOTE: Raya36

This is dumb you win Varsoon.

[Yukino]

VOTE: Yukino

I am aware this is contradictory to what I said was good play day 1, but I don't care enough about getting the small amount of additional info anymore, I don't think it would help. Also playing well is for suckers.

So I am fine being nominated in order to make Dunnstral and Elbrin nominated with me.

[Yukino]

Nom me and I'll pick Dunnstrall and someone else from my pool

VOTE: Elbirn

VOTE: Elbrin done deal.

[Yukino]

I mean I prefer Hellbooks but Pookie is also fine since I am just going to tunnel Dunnstral again. : ^ )

Do you guys think scum would bus because it's nightless or choose to not bus because everyone knows scum would want to bus for cred?

[Yukino]

Choo Choo, let's go!

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Yukino]

Varsoon has your read on me evolved at all or is this the same read from the nomination 1 phase?
Also we have already mislynched so we are sort of behind right now. Easy or hard we really don't want to mislynch again.

I am trying to think of Dunnstrals buddy and I am still leaning towards Dunnstral?
Elbrin is starting to be a better look I like the way he asked me to vote him, it felt rather town that he was approaching it in basically the same way I was going to.

I am still unsure why Hellbook isn't an acceptable lynch I don't really town read them either

[Yukino]

Shit... sorry guys I didn't think I was that bad.

So I need to figure this out, it's not as easy as Elbrin and Hellbooks, it just isn't.
Elbrin do you think the recent engagement from Pooky and Varsoon comes from scum/scum ever?

I don't think the 2 of them are town but I also just don't think that the 2 of them are ever town

[Yukino]

I don't really want to take the L? If we hit scum here we end up with room 1 for more mislynch which really swings the game back in our favor. So I just need to figure it out.

Again I am really sorry for fucking up on Dunnstral, idk he just didn't have a presence all game and I didn't like it all. My bad...

pedit: I am down for another you guys are fun to play with.

[Yukino]

Pooky has a point about this phase. Scum can't actually quick hammer the nomination phase so it's our best bet to control the vote in a peaceful environment.

While post nomination scum can quick hammer when a single player messes up. I don't think just ignoring the next phase and being incredibly careful in this one is bad play.

Don't worry btw all the town outside maybe Raya deserve to take a L right now.

[Yukino]

Elbrin didn't answer me so step 1, is likely to just say.

Pooky/Varsoon
Elbrin/Varsoon

Neither of these teams are possible.
Varsoon could easily be paired up with Hellbook though.

Hellbook can reasonably be paired up with anyone in all honesty. I don't really see who they have interactions with that make me feel they just couldn't be scum with them.

Elbrin and Pooky can really only not be paired with just Varsoon, I don't think them being scum together is impossible.


VOTE: Hellbook

Don't hammer this because this is a pretty shit thought but this is the best bet from the standpoint of who is the most open to being scum with others stand point.

Varsoon is really only scum with Hellbook, so I am never lynching Varsoon first, I'd always just start off with Hellbook because that is just what makes sense.


So congrats Varsoon you get the first green card.

[Yukino]

It's possible but scum just doesnt have to give a single fuck if neither of them are on the chopping block

Varsoon and I cant read each other which means we're both obvtown

Honestly it's probably you and pooky sorry

I mean I just get the vibe scum don't really care this game? And the only one who is actually pushing this game from a strong standpoint is Varsoon which would really only clear him if I decide to take that angle. Which I am already doing because I only see the world he is scum with Hellbook.

Idk what to tell you about me though I am just town lol.

[Yukino]

I am not even ruling out Varsoon as scum, I just don't see the point of lynching him when I should just start with Hellbook anyway.
Which makes us mind meld in that regard I guess???

But his scum reads to a large degree are just "step it up" reads so not like that is hard to fake.
Elbrin I really don't know why I gave so much space to yesterday when he is in the nash slot that did that quick hammer???

So it could just be Elbrin with Pooky/Hellbook

UNVOTE:

Fuck me I hate lylos.

[Yukino]

Honestly I am going to wait for someone to just drop something super townie and hope I can work my way from there.

[Yukino]

I'm willing to throw the game on Elbirn / Hellbook

I am not certain Pooky is town.
So not yet we can wait a few more days to figure it out.

[Yukino]

Can anyone tell me why hellbook is scum aside from PoE?

They've been 1 lining basically this entire day phase and I still don't like how they handled the 1v1 they had with Pooky that somehow ended up with the lynch of Raya?

It's was weird, and the only time they've had a real fighting spirit involves saving a player that is still alive to this day. Which feels like either buddying or they are just scum with Pooky.

[Yukino]

Why is an opinion on how to approach a setup alignment indicative?
Setup info is one of those known on alignment indicative approaches to the game given it doesn't change based on your role card.

Hellbook likes that bad idea as all alignments.

@varsoon This feels like mafia101 to me does Elbrin really push this idea to you?

[Yukino]

Maybe it is just Elbrin, why do you keep changing your stance on Varsoon?
It's odd, it doesn't feel like town paranoia it feels just weird to me.

[Yukino]

I am still waiting for someone to do something super clearing, but no one is and I am very upset.


Pooky it's Elbrin and who else to you? Let me get into your head so I can solve this game tyvm.

[Yukino]

Ok bad choice of words, I more meant the timing of your jump then the frequency of them. Like this is the exact stage in the game you'd want to open up the option to vote someone where as before when you were town reading him it didn't really matter.


I am trying to figure out a scum team. Not like scum can quick hammer so I am going to just park on my #1 suspect. I think they could easily just be scum with any of you and I don't think they have done anything to make me think they are town. If you guys very awkwardly quick hammer them, then I entrust Hellbook is capable of nominating the people to do that.

VOTE: Hellbook

[Yukino]

This is scum frustration, losing for reasons you aren't happy with.
ect ect.

[Yukino]

It's also been less then a full page since I last posted, so I don't even believe your reaction.
Idk.

[Yukino]

I am now resolved on Hellbook being scum.
Let's go team.

[Yukino]

I think it's obvious Hellbooks and I cross voting with no real support from means one of us has to be scum.
Please offer your support.

[Yukino]

Vote me, I self hammer and nominate Hellbook and Elbrin?
I'll compromise on that.

[Yukino]

And Elbrin won't nominate Hellbooks so here we are.

[Yukino]

Oh neat action.

[Yukino]

So I guess I have to figure this out.
Between these 2 I am not sure who I'd want to vote really.

I could go either way really, I was kind of tin foiling Hellbooks and Varsoon just doing theater this entire time.
But that literally isn't possible now so readjusting is awkward.

[Yukino]

Elbrin looking kinda townie here tbh.
Outside the above post.

But the other ones are good.

[Yukino]

VOTE: Elbrin

[Yukino]

DK3 repped out site wide and stating why you are replacing out is currently against the rules. The clues were their it's not like they chose this game alone because they couldn't handle a scum game.
Don't think it's fair to hold anything against them.

I wasn't reading Pooky posts so, I can't say who I side with.