Micro 959 - Greater Idea Game Over

[Fidget]

I don't like this Glitch wagon one bit! My mind immediately went to suspecting Pooky for discarding doctor. I do not think he was PR fishing, the question does not surprise me since the cards are potentially useful for determining alignment

VOTE: Raya

40 is invalid because it ignores what Glitches intentions were. Even if the question could aid scum, I do not believe that is what he wanted it to do!

[Fidget]

were you a cluster of starbucks i could spare you

Glitch's quick hop onto Pooky is suspect given the way obvious rolefishing and the overdefensiveness throughout 19 because he felt like Pooky dodged his over-the-top aggressiveness.

I feel like Glitch is trying to lure Pooky into saying something that he can twist for his own benefit. Pooky is holding his own, but I don't like Glitch here at all.

I dont think Glitch would try to do that even as scum. That's a crazy plan! If glitch were scum with Pooky not on his team, he would naturally assume he's a strong PR or another scumteam. No fishing necessary.

[Fidget]

VOTE: Starbuck

And you there, bodyguard-discarder-glitch-wagoner. What have you got to say? About my comment. On the glitch wagon. That you're on

[Fidget]

I get Glitches point about not wanting the responsibility of a power role. But a Doctor is objectively better than Vanilla in this scenario! You lose nothing picking it, silly!!

I'm thinking Glitch is for real though.

[Fidget]

I agree with Glitch on this, and I'm pretty sure Pooky prefers playing scum over town. Unsure if you mentioned that in treestump or if I just get that vibe from you.

Is Hectic just flat-out wrong then Pooky? Do you think he came to this conclusion truthfully or is it just something convenient to attack you with?

[Fidget]

Oh, working solely on vibes then. At least it was a good effort.

[Fidget]

Yeah, what did I say there that made you change your mind?

I have not decided either way. I didn't intend for my "good effort" comment to mean I perceived you as townie for it.

After Pooky said he isn't a mindreader I looked at the game for myself and didn't see anything that would suggest Pooky prefers scum. He actually said he was glad he was town in the first post, although it was because of another player.

But overall I'm not sure if you were faking that "prefers to be scum" thought or not. I'm not sure if there's obvious scum benefit to piling on the Pooky wagon. It's possible you had that impression of Pooky regardless of your own alignment.

[Fidget]

Not_Mafia is bottom because he picks scum over town 90% of the time here. Unless the town role is really fun.

If he's scum, that'd mean he had two scum cards anyway. So this doesn't really matter.

[Fidget]

VOTE: Fidget though because it's more useful right now.

I'M a conspirAcy theoriSt and I can check NOt_Mafia toNight to verify his tentacled townie claim.

Pedit: What about you? DO you prefer town or scum? Everyone should probably answer this question actually.

Subtle!

I'm thinking I like town a bit more. I don't take issue with either. Given the choice between VT and Goon I'd pick VT.

[Fidget]

@Reya: What I noticed was that interaction with you over pooky/starbuck. It looked like you caught her being hypocritical and she tried to cover herself.

But I'm not even attacking Star for what Raya noted. How does that make any sense?!

Raya's point was that she found it odd people were focusing in on Pooky discarding Doctor but ignoring Starbuck discarding Bodyguard.

Mine is that I think the pushback to Glitches' question was bad. Which applies to Pooky, Raya, and Starbuck. After Raya agreed I had made a good point, I moved on to Star. Raya saying that it was weird people were ignoring Star's role in favor of Pooky's role did not play a factor.

[Fidget]

were you a cluster of starbucks i could spare you

Glitch's quick hop onto Pooky is suspect given the way obvious rolefishing and the overdefensiveness throughout 19 because he felt like Pooky dodged his over-the-top aggressiveness.

I feel like Glitch is trying to lure Pooky into saying something that he can twist for his own benefit. Pooky is holding his own, but I don't like Glitch here at all.

I dont think Glitch would try to do that even as scum. That's a crazy plan! If glitch were scum with Pooky not on his team, he would naturally assume he's a strong PR or another scumteam. No fishing necessary.

"Either A. Thing or B. Something completely different"
I don't get why town!glitch wouldn't also reach the same conclusion you're proposing?

The who what huh now? My point is that Glitch was not rolefishing there. Even if he is scum. So it's not a valid scumtell at all.

The voters immediately made me suspicious as I believe the wagon had faulty reasoning. That's why I'm interested in Star!

[Fidget]

“ I dont think Glitch would try to do that even as scum. That's a crazy plan! If glitch were scum with Pooky not on his team, he would naturally assume he's a strong PR or another scumteam. No fishing necessary.”

For me, it’s the “even if,” and “if” that make it seem like you are conditioning his action on his alignment.

Oh. Well what I meant was, Glitch as scum would already assume that Pooky is a strong PR/multiball scum, and therefore wouldn't feel the need to rolefish. Since it isn't rolefishing, the act itself could come from either alignment.

I didn't mean for it to come off as associating the act of asking about the doctor discard itself with one alignment

[Fidget]

VOTE: Starbuck

And you there, bodyguard-discarder-glitch-wagoner. What have you got to say? About my comment. On the glitch wagon. That you're on

ngl this feels a bit like trying to piggyback on the posts against glitch after glitch explained their relationship to the role.

like i get that we're all here trying to figure out Who Did What With What Role but this feels like the laziest sort of execution of it. or maybe i just don't like the tone of it.

Piggybacking on the posts I'm opposed to? I don't get it.

My grievance with Star is not the bodyguard discard, or at least not mainly anyway. That's just something extra that doesn't help.

[Fidget]

Piggybacking on the posts I'm opposed to? I don't get it.

My grievance with Star is not the bodyguard discard, or at least not mainly anyway. That's just something extra that doesn't help.

/nodnod. indeed, that is why i said it could have just been a tonal thing because i also wrinkled my nose at your 99 though i don't have a real reason. i think you use exclamation marks in a way that makes me instinctually assume dishonesty, tbh.

Gah! Does it help I'm a character that has a tendency to yell?! No? Okay!

admittedly i'm not using the entirety of my brain cells right now but i kind of understand why bodyguard was brushed over as opposed to doctor. i feel in general doctor is a more universal/utilized role and people are more prone to associating THAT with towniness and helpfulness. it's the first thing recognized and thus you're more likely to go ??? over it than bodyguard.

I come from a town of salem background and I still somewhat associate the bodyguard with being really good even though I know it's not the same on here. But you're right, doctor is probably the most obviously helpful role that stands out on the list.

Although I would have loooved the gladiator one.

[Fidget]

But you could just, not use the night action as a doctor for example? And it'd be functionally the same as VT. So really the heal is just a bonus.

You're not depriving someone else of the PR, only yourself!

[Fidget]

Alien Silencer IS scum, Double. The aliens are a faction like the mafia and werewolves. They only get one nightkill throughout the game, but usually have some kind of strong ability. Unless I'm misinterpreting you saying "Most pick it over scum" ??

Tracker is kind of good. In a normal game they really can only half-clear people from commiting the kill, and find PRs. This game though where there's likely a ton of PRs, I bet it goes up in usefulness. What do you mean by trackers create WIFOM?

Doctor is decent but if you only save one person it's somewhat less helpful because MYLO exists. I can think of many other roles that could plausibly be picked instead. It's just less likely that a player would get two high value PRs, if that makes any sense. But Doctor isn't the end-all best PR.

I think the gladiator picks both targets but don't quote me on that. It's really not super strong but it looks fun! To me anyway.

Bodyguard is a confusing role to me. It can be helpful if they protect the right person, I bet. But also I guess taking the kill shot for other people isn't especially appealing. Hmph

[Fidget]

Mafia Strongman looks like one of the best scum roles. Glitch probably would have picked it if he were given two scum cards and had to choose mafia. However! Since he didn't pick it, that would probably suggest he got a town and a scum card.

Werewolf Miller is a terrible scum card. I think a neutral player would avoid taking it and pick the other card, regardless of what the other one is because it's way more likely to be a better card. Hectic claims NM takes scum roles at any opportunity he gets. If that meta is correct, then NM would have picked this card if it were the other scum. Meaning he very likely had two scum cards. I don't know if Hectic's meta read is correct or not though.

I think Raya would have picked whatever her other card was over Mafia Goon. No surprise.

Ydrasse also probably would have picked anything over Universal Miller. Unless she hates playing scum so much where she'd pick the Uni Miller over a scum card.

Hectic discarded a VT. Essentially same as the last two except that VT isn't an awful role. Just a fine one.

Here's what I glean from the discards (and NM meta)

>>Higher chance of being town

Glitch

Neutral

Raya
Hectic
NDMath
Ydrasse
Starbuck

>Slightly higher chance of being scum

Pooky
DoubleDare

>>Higher chance of being scum

Not_Mafia

It's not a lot. I don't think we can lean on the discards much.

[Fidget]

Tracker is not that great in larger games or games with lots of scum on one team. But if you get down to one scum left, then it starts clearing people all nicely!

You make a fair point that people can just claim whatever they want in response to non-killing visits, though. Tracker is only sort of useful in a lot of scenarios.

I'd pick 3rd party over scum any day! Alien is sort of third party since they probably won't have a partner, so i see what you meant

[Fidget]

My Starbuck vote is starting to feel all dusty and out of date :(

But I will endure! Until she posts some. Then I'll figure this out

[Fidget]

3) Bayesian probability doesn't work in the sense that you say oh he is not likely to be dealt 2 town-PRs therefore if he discarded a town-PR he is scum - you have to incorporate the fact that a town-PR was discarded in the first place into your probability calculation. It's not "what is the probability player X got dealt 2 town PRs" it's "what is the probability that player X got dealt 2 town PRs given the fact that he got dealt at LEAST one town PR, which is basically nearly the same probability calculation as Player X getting dealt a Town PR in the first place.

You're right. The probability I was thinking of is this:

Player X is dealt a doctor card, a strong town-aligned power role as their first card.

Let's say that 50% of the cards in the deck are scum, and 40% of the cards are town cards that are worse than doc. Player X was not dealt a town card worse than doc. What are the odds Player X's other card is a town-power role stronger than doc versus being a scum card?

I wasn't thinking "What are the odds a player draws two strong town PRs", cause you're correct, the doctor is already agiven. Is there anything wrong with thinking about it this way? There's probably less than 50% scum cards and more strong town PRs than 10% though

[Fidget]

This is part of what links up with being hypocritical. It was glitch who was being hypocritical as well.

Fidget, you said that your mind immediately went to suspecting Pooky for discarding doctor but there was 0 mention of starbuck discarding bg until I brought it up. My concern is that either you or glitch decided to use this as an attack on town!Pooky but left scumbuddy starbuck out of it even though the situation was nearly identical.

Doctor is better than BG and Pooky was the one getting pushed. Again, you bringing her up had nothing to do with my switch to Star and I feel it's a tad surface level to read it that way.

Especially when someone tries to draw an associative from me to Starbuck because of it. Cmon, that's a terrible stretch!

You got me and glitch backwards. I had strongman and glitch had goon

Whaaat? Oh. I guess I went off of Glitches post rather than the mods. OOPS

[Fidget]

As for the rolefishing, starting with your 16, you set him up to fail and are completely unfair. You want Pooky to respond in a specific way, but there's not really a way that Pooky could really answer your questions without referencing his current role and I think you set it up that way so you can say "but I told you NOT to do this" to push suspicion. So I can't blame Pooky's skepticism of you in the following post. Then your immediate jump to "OMG ARE U AVOIDING MY QUESTION" and addition of more questions, alongside a vote, just feels as though you wanted to vote him in the first place and didn't really care about his answers. All of this on Page 1. It just feels like nothing he says is going to satisfy you because you already made up your mind.

I can fully well see what you mean. However, I find it way more likely that Glitch was trying to use the discard mechanic to scumhunt, since Pooky had the "worst" discard.

So instead of accusing him of rolefishing (which was the others' grievances), you think he framed the question in order to make Pooky fail on purpose. I'm doubting it

Pooky chose not to be a doctor which unless choosing a stronger town PR, is anti town. Without telling about the role you chose, is there any reason why you decided to ditch the doc? Do you not like playing doc for some reason or another?

I can see why people take issue with this but I just.... dont? I think Pooky's incoming answer to it was probably pretty obvious. Naturally he's not going to say he picked a weaker role, but I lean that Glitch was trying to solve Pooky with this question

This post and the following ones don't scream "Trying to frame Pooky" to me. Dunno!

[Fidget]

My mind immediately went to suspecting Pooky for discarding doctor.

Why? Someone discarding a protective role doesn't automatically mean they chose scum.

No but in my mind someone who discarded a strong town PR would be more likely to be scum than someone who discarded a scum card. Except in the case of NM

VOTE: Starbuck

And you there, bodyguard-discarder-glitch-wagoner. What have you got to say? About my comment. On the glitch wagon. That you're on

I read it. I think you're wrong, making bad assumptions, discrediting good points, and kinda whiteknighty.

Psh! What, me? Having bad takes? Never!

I don't think doctor is a "strong" power role in this setup for many of the reasons I've stated in 125 I'd rather not state exactly which town PRs I consider to be "strong" because I'd rather not give scum any more information about my PR. If they are really curious they can always try their luck at night.

Also there are some power roles whose strength comes from their "surprise" factor.

Yeah there's probably a decent pool of roles that can reasonably be picked ahead of doctor. That's why the discards are starting to seem increasingly unhelpful to me!

[Fidget]

Yeah there's probably a decent pool of roles that can reasonably be picked ahead of doctor. That's why the discards are starting to seem increasingly unhelpful to me!

I think the discards are very useful as a "floor" value for what range the selected role could be in.

If we were to think about scumminess based off discards, I would find people with lower "floor" values more susp than people with higher floor values - however it seems most of the town seems to think otherwise.

If a player were offered the #1 town card in the setup and discarded it, that would suggest they chose a scum card, since if they preferred town, they had the best one. (How I approach You/Double's)

If a player were offered the #1 scum card in the setup and discarded it, that would suggest their other card wasn't a scum card, since they'd pick the #1 scum card over it. (How I approach Raya's)

If a player were offered the #50 worst town/scum card in the setup and discarded it, that would suggest they had any other town/scum card that was better, or they opted for the other alignment. I just don't find the floor very helpful thinking of it like this (How I approach Ydrasse's)

[Fidget]

VOTE: GlitchHe's arguing that he's right not that he's town -- which matters in that his scum play style is a lot of notes and based off them deciding what he 'thinks'.

I don't know why'd Glitch would have any reason to argue that he's town during that exchange. This sounds good but really means little.

I think what would make more sense is if Glitch wasn't arguing that Pooky is scum, but instead saying Pooky is wrong. Glitch did both though.

I dont think Glitch would try to do that even as scum. That's a crazy plan! If glitch were scum with Pooky not on his team, he would naturally assume he's a strong PR or another scumteam. No fishing necessary.

"Either A. Thing or B. Something completely different"
I don't get why town!glitch wouldn't also reach the same conclusion you're proposing?

Still don't get what you mean here. You're arguing for Glitch being scum in this post. I'm saying that town or scum Glitch could ask the question. You point out that town Glitch would say it too..?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: NDMath

[Fidget]

Your next line is... "I knew it! Fidget and Starbuck ARE scum together!"

[Fidget]

No but in my mind someone who discarded a strong town PR would be more likely to be scum than someone who discarded a scum card. Except in the case of NM

I don't think that's a fair assessment at all. Your opinion of a strong town PR differs from mine, clearly.

Same thought in regards to your 148.

What's the strongest town power role that got discarded? I glossed over tracker earlier but I'd still probably say Doctor>Tracker>Bodyguard>Gladiator>VT>Miller. If you discard a strong PR, your pool for the other card automatically shrinks to things better than the small PR (town) or scum. Cause you wouldn't pick a weaker town card over a stronger one.

I will agree that Doctor isn't the end-all power role so it's not a death sentence by any means. I maintain that it's better than many other town cards though

[Fidget]

Nyeh! I was close.

[Fidget]

Miltank, do you have literally

anything

to say? You've posted nothing useful this game. Are you hiding behind Hectic and his mason claim with you? Are you two actually scum together?

Claiming masons with your scum partner. Classic.

I feel like a broken record talking about Glitch getting frustrated at people not responding to his discard questions favorably so I won't comment. Same reaction

Glitch saying pooky is wrong but not scummy isn't scummy because town are wrong often?
My point is more so that he's being scumread with reasons and his answers to those reasons aren't arguing he's town, just that he's right. [The post directed at me, made after I said that, excluded.]

I'm saying that your reason for either saying it is wrong, and if it was right neither would say it.
Your post comes off as townreading glitch, because it only focuses on the scum case, implw scum!glitch wouldn't do it therefore he's town.

I meant for it to come off as, scum!Glitch would not rolefish. There is 0 need to rolefish when scum Glitch would already know Pooky is a strong PR / multiball scum. So people scumreading Glitch for rolefishing are just plain wrong.

Indirectly I like Glitch a little more cause I think his case is flawed but I am not closed off to "caught for the wrong reasons".

[Fidget]

I meant for it to come off as, scum!Glitch would not rolefish. There is 0 need to rolefish when scum Glitch would already know Pooky is a strong PR / multiball scum. So people scumreading Glitch for rolefishing are just plain wrong.

hard disagree on the no need for scum to role-fish

I think we just have a very different way of approaching this. Maybe I'm wrong. I just think it's a spectacularly poor idea to rolefish as scum in a role madness game where you already know the person is equal to or better than doctor. I get trying to use the discards, too, that's what they're there for.

fwiw i don’t think that maf!glitch chooses this hill to die upon because it would be the dumbest hill possible. i tr the pointing finger that moves around to everyone if only because it seems like it doesn’t know what it’s doing wrt pointing out maf perfectly. agendaless if you will even if it’s a bit jumpy

Maybe. What do you think of Glitch pretty blatantly doing what you said seems towny for him just a bit after you said this? (183)

[Fidget]

I'm gonna tentatively say that Raya is town....

[Fidget]

Not Mafia and Hectic are both trolling you! I don't trust a single word they're saying roles-wise at this point. No they're not masons. I'll freak if they really are. Maybe Not Mafia is a tentacled townie who knows. I'd probably bet on him being an Alien, instead, actually. I totally see him throwing away the bad werewolf in favor of an awesome alien role, and then insta claiming alien miller at the start

I agree with Raya's evaluation of Ydrasse. I don't like DoubleDare's evaluation of Ydrasse, it feels slightly agenda-y. How to explain...I don't get his scumread of her at all. Just because she defended Glitch for multiple posts adamantly?

I think her assertion that she'd pick town miller above scum roles is true, and I somewhat think DoubleDare knows this but ignores it. Call it a gut read, but I'm getting it from the way he words 219. "I just don't know why" pings me.

VOTE: DoubleDare

This is my best vote so far. Not Mafia is probably an even more valid vote but that's suuuuper boring.

[Fidget]

Regardless, I think the glitch wagon is decent. On the other hand, I too get weird vibes from Ydrasse.

Wait are you saying suspecting the Glitch wagon is decent, or suspecting Glitch is good so the wagon is good?

[Fidget]

Also hahaha

[Fidget]

This is bullshit. You basically say, "N_M and Hectic are definitely scum, and DD should have been able to see this but didn't, therefore vote DD." That's such a bad argument. Why are you voting DD and not NM or Hectic?? I understand if you want to read into DD for how he didn't pick up on that but why vote for DD if you're not certain of alignment when you are convinced there are 1 liars in the group?

---

I'm happy with my vote on NM if nothing more than a PL. I don't believe their mason claim for a second, especially with 3 anti town factions being an option. Vote NM. It's a vote for town.

What? That is not even remotely related to my vote on DoubleDare. I think his take on Ydrasse is bad and/or disingenuous.

Not Mafia is probably scum by virtue of him always picking scum, and seeing as he discarded a scum card, he definitely had the option for scum.

Hectic probably isnt scum. I also like his readslist he just gave a bit ago.

My take is that DoubleDare is scum with someone who is under heat right now and he felt the need to get something started on a new player. think he pushed Ydrasse cause there were some small suspicions on her earlier. In fact, I could see Double being scum with you, and he's attacking Ydrasse for defending you in order to look good later when you flip scum.

it'd be pretty lit if NM/Hectic are actually aliens and claimed to be masons

Lit yes. A terrible, terrible plan.. also yes.

By the way, when Hectic /inned for this game, he said "/in as mason"

This was planned

[Fidget]

I'm glad I got the DoubleDare stuff out, but realistically Not Mafia still has the greatest chance of flipping scum. Do you agree, Hectic?

I'll extend that to everyone. What are your reads on Not Mafia?

[Fidget]

So, the thing about him claiming tentacled townie is that yes, at first glance, claiming the alien miller variant as an alien makes sense, but in reality, it doesn't, because what are the odds someone is going to have an alien cop (conspiracy theorist) and are going to check Not_Mafia? Slim, so it's not exactly a good fakeclaim to make. Then again, it's Not_Mafia so who knows.

But since he's masons with me, this is all hypothetical of course.

You're right. It makes very little sense to claim Alien Miller when there's only one or two alien cop cards. But it seems like something Not Mafia would do.

Mason doesn't confirm nonalien. Just nonmafia :wink:

[Fidget]

First you disparage NM/H's claim with no basis whatsoever. This looks like a desperate attempt to discredit the solidifying mason claim and seed suspicions.

"agenda-y" but can't explain - don't get the scum read when I clearly said "vibes." "Just because she defended Glithc for multiple posts" is town? Why? how does it make sense for uninformed player A to defend player B even if they have a town read? Why do it 3 times? unless you can give a town reason for that, you are talking out yo ass.

You think I KNOW that her assertion is true? How in the universe could I KNOW anything about her or her assertions?

YOUR post feels "agenda-y" and contrived. You even set up Not_Maf as the second suspect in your agenda by casting more shade but not voting.

VOTE: Fidget

I have a provable Town Power Role which will be 100% confirmed tomorrow. What you got?

I have a reason I'm ignoring Not Mafia in favor of you/others, actually. You are completely correct that's what I was doing, though.

You are totally wrong on NM/H, by the way. The mason claim was clearly a joke since the very first post.

I'm happy with this in any case.

UNVOTE:

[Fidget]

Town - Raya, Ydrasse, DoubleDare(pending tmrw)
TL - Hectic
Slight TL to Null - Pooky, Starbuck ?
Null to slight SL - NDMath or Glitch
Probably scum - Not Mafia

I like Raya, Ydrasse, Hectic's takes semi consistently. Raya has a good discard. Hectic I believe would pick a town card.

When I poked at NDMath, I didn't get a lot from his response to be honest. I think if Glitch is town, that makes NDMath scum. I lean vice versa as well.

On the flip side, I think DoubleDare's reaction suggests to me decently that he's town. It was reeeally intense. I also like his last line where he says he'll be confirmable tomorrow, I have no idea what role that is but seems like a very very bad claim for scum.

I'm still waiting on others to weigh in on NM. I see no reason in particular to believe he's town. Even if he is town, do you want him in LYLO if he maintains this level of readability?

[Fidget]

...do you see a particular reason that he's mafia, though?

like yeah, it's a bit irritating i guess but like. let's not worry about lylo right now and just try to eliminate someone who has actually posted scummy things, yeah? i'm not big on like, eliminating slots just to save ourselves a headache if it means that headache is town.

Well, his discard shows he had the option to be scum. I think he'd be more likely to pick scum over a town card. I think his tentacle townie claim is very much something he'd do as alien so down the game he can be like "LoL iM a TenTaCleD tOwnIe rEmeMbeR" if he had to. An absolutely ridiculous plan that is very befitting of him.

I like eliminating Glitch because I don't think I've decided to townread him, and he's been the most polarizing player of today.

But about headaches. You're right that using up an elimination to save us headache (like a policy eliminate) is not a great idea.

[Fidget]

Hmm, maybe that's a townslip actually. I wonder if Fidget would try to fabricate that.

Could I hear more reasoning behind that read, Fidget?

The Glitch/NDMath one? Oh, I wasn't really thinking about multiball, but it's because NDMath supported the Glitch wagon kind of late, I don't think they're scum together.

[Fidget]

Don't hammer Glitch. I got impatient for waiting for Starbuck but she's probably scum. The only question is why she'd choose scum over town if she doesn't seem to have motivation to play it.

Agree with don't hammer Glitch yet. DO NOT HAMMER GLITCH.

Do we even know each other? Am I famous, am I infamous?

You're practically a celebrity from what I can tell!

[Fidget]

I need more from Glitch other than his serious misinterpretation of my DoubleDare "case".

I don't think him not wanting to die on a stupid hill (as you mentioned) about the fishing thing isn't terribly town indicative.

[Fidget]

You know.. it's funny the game got put to evens during signups.

I am a dayvig, and I can shoot without affecting how many eliminations we have.

I am very likely going to shoot Glitch tomorrow so do not worry about him. I think his flip will be particularly telling. I want you all to choose your second-favorite new wagon, it doesn't have to be NDMath but he's my preferred I think.

VOTE: NDMath

Do not hammer anyone until after I've made my shot. I'll do it around when the most prominent wagon reaches L-1 or L-2. I will be online for most of tomorrow.

[Fidget]

There's only one bullet in the gun. I'm using it today, a protective is not necessary.

[Fidget]

When there's an even number of players, if someone gets killed during the day, that'll set it to odd.

Like this:

10 players -> eliminate + nightkill -> 8 players -> eliminate + nightkill -> 6 players -> eliminate + nightkill -> 4 players MYLO.
We get 4 eliminations, as 4 players left is MYLO.

However, if I shoot someone today, it gets set down to 9 players (the original setup)

9 players -> eliminate + nightkill -> 7 players -> eliminate + nightkill -> 5 players -> eliminate + nightkill -> 3 players XYLO.
We get 4 eliminations, but I got to shoot someone extra on D1 as well. So essentially if I shoot while we're on evens, we don't lose anything but we gain an extra shot at someone scummy.

If there's going to be multiple kills per night that complicates a bit but I still need to shoot at some point if there does happen to be a massive amount of scum. I would not want to lose this opportunity to getting NKed

[Fidget]

I am very likely going to shoot Glitch tomorrow so do not worry about him. I think his flip will be particularly telling. I want you all to choose your second-favorite new wagon, it doesn't have to be NDMath but he's my preferred I think.

Oh! To clarify I meant IRL tomorrow, within the next twenty four hours. Apologies.

[Fidget]

Bitchin só who’s dead ?

I haven't fired yet, but it's going to be at Glitch. I want those wagoning him to switch to a new wagon, one we will actually eliminate. When it gains enough traction I'll off Glitch.

[Fidget]

unvote

fair enough but wouldn't we want to have the info of glitch's role to help us figure out the next person to go after?

I want some people, aka the town, to be left in the dark on Glitch's alignment for now. I think that will put scum in a trickier spot.

I meant for it to come off as, scum!Glitch would not rolefish. There is 0 need to rolefish when scum Glitch would already know Pooky is a strong PR / multiball scum. So people scumreading Glitch for rolefishing are just plain wrong.

Your surety on this is what gives me pause. You have been dead set that scum!Glitch wouldn't do this and scum!Glitch wouldn't do that and the fact that you aren't letting any chance of your opinion being wrong come into play (i.e. a little humility) is concerning.

I'm sorry, I do not mean for it to come off that way. I just think it's an extremely bad idea to rolefish as scum when you already know what you need to know about someone's role, aka it's equal to or stronger than doctor.

Hectic, it seems to me that Starbuck simply dislikes playing VT a ton. The screenshot you posted doesn't say much about her alignment preference.

Also, what is TP?

Please kill Starbuck

Why?

[Fidget]

Nyeh. I don't think that's so bad. Saying "I like town because I don't have to stress over words", then saying "Yeah I have to do that as third party too" isn't reaaaally that big a deal, is it?

Let's seeee. Everyone has weighed in but Raya and Glitch. I'd really like for him to give some thoughts.

NDMath (2) - Ydrasse, Fidget
Starbuck (2) - Hectic, NDMath
PookyTheMagicalBear (2) - Raya36, Not Mafia

Here are our fantastic, shiny brand new wagons! Personally I recommend consolidating on NDMath or Starbuck. Raya's opinion holds more weight to me as well.

But the biggest thing is ensuring one gets enough traction and goes through before deadline.

[Fidget]

Fidget, how do you feel about Raya complaining about me not getting enough light shed on me, but not doing that herself?

Was Raya trying to hunt using the discards? I interpreted it as that she felt the people who were hunting there were being cherry-picky.

[Fidget]

Gliiiitch! Where are youuu?!

[Fidget]

Spoiler: Recap

I claimed dayvig shooting Glitch and suggested we should switch the wagon.

DoubleDare trusts me.

Pooky unvotes Glitch and suggests I should shoot Glitch immediately so we get a better idea of who to go after next.

Not Mafia votes Pooky

NDMath thinks I should shoot Glitch to actually get a read on who the wagon should be. He votes Starbuck.

Not Mafia asks me to kill Starbuck

DoubleDare wants me to shoot Hectic

Ydrasse sees nothing wrong with Starbuck

Wish I could've gotten more stuff to happen, but that is certainly much more info than we would've gotten from this day 1 had I not claimed.

I wonder if it was worth it

[Fidget]

You are correct Ydrasse, I don't want to screw the deadline. I must confess there is no bullet heading towards Glitch/NDMath, though. There never was. I just wanted to get any extra info I could by pushing people off the wagon to their second picks.

KILL: Not Mafia

[Fidget]

Of course he would. I would not have done that if it weren't for evens. Sorry NM.

VOTE: Glitch

[Fidget]

Sigh. I knew if I shot someone other than NM and they flipped town, I'd be extremely angry at myself for not just shooting NM cause I can't lose by shooting him.

[Fidget]

so did like, the tentacles grow from his body or what?

in all reality this shot is kind of... meh. it sucks that a townie was shot but i feel that a lot of people would have wanted to ~resolve that slot at some point or whatever so. i guess it’s fine?

Had he flipped Alien that wouldn't really have done anything to show I'm town either. Only a mafia flip from him would.

I am a bit annoyed now. A scumflip today would make me feel better. Glitches last post towards me was.. inaccurate. He was willing to vote out NM today, which doesn't say a lot but still.

I think he was on the right side of the discard argument. Him being right doesn't preclude him from being scum caught for the wrong reasons.

I should have waited for his reaction to me claiming to want to shoot him. I would have done that if I had realized the deadline would extend.

I am hovering on voting for NDMath, as well. But I think I should give everyone their turn to pick the elimination. Glitches flip should be revealing enough, I would think.

[Fidget]

What a horrific shot.

I had to step away for errands and work stuff, but seriously, that was a waste. All of that grandstanding to shoot Not_Mafia?

RIP dude. You didn't deserve that shit even if you were trolling.

Are you joking? I just saved us a guaranteed misexile down the line. Or were you seriously planning on letting Not_Mafia survive a LYLO?

[Fidget]

Sure, shooting scum would have been better. But if I shot someone other than Not_Mafia who flipped town, there's no telling if we would have miseliminated them in the future. They could have been a PR that wouldve eaten a nightkill or something. And then NM would have stayed in the game as another townie that will inevitably get miseliminated because it's impossible to read him.

For the record, I was only considering shooting Glitch, Starbuck, NDMath, and Not_Mafia. Not Mafia won by a landslide just because I wouldnt forgive myself misfiring at someone else. Glitch I think would have been acceptable as well but I did worry about the deadline running out so I just figured we'd eliminate him nice and easy cause everyone is already on board with that.

[Fidget]

You wanna explain that orrrr

Pedit: What does that even mean

[Fidget]

If you're talking about the masons comment, Hectic was almost certainly planning on doing that before the game even started, by virtue of him saying "/in as mason" in the queue.

I'm not really sure what you mean by riding on NM's coat tails. You mean to say he's behaving in a joking matter because NM is?

[Fidget]

You wanna explain that orrrr

Pedit: What does that even mean

That was just like the worst big shot I’ve ever seen. You went for the policy instead of shooting for scum.

The risk of missing and shooting town was too high. Not Mafia was the only slot I knew we would eliminate guaranteed, so I gave us an extra elimination for free essentially. Not only that, but I took Not Mafia as the kind of guy to pick a scum card. Silly me.

You and Starbuck react as if this isn't the case, which is so odd to me. At worst that it's an okayish shot. Certainly not god awful. Unless you can tell me why I should have known that slot was town, and why he wasn't going to be eliminated down the line this game. This is a much better outcome than accidentally shooting a town PR.

Maybe if I were able to get real strong reads I'd have followed my heart. But there's not a lot of stuff I feel strongly about. I could have held the shot and hoped I wasn't NKed, but I was worried if NM was scum, he'd might shoot me for being somewhat vocally against him.

[Fidget]

You would have called my shot awful if I had tried to hero shoot Starbuck or NDMath, and they flipped Town Innocent Child or something.

Sigh

Maybe you wouldn't have. I just went for the style of shooting someone who I know will be eliminated, saving us a day/night cycle. I really thought he'd flip scum too.

[Fidget]

Also, I read the Fidget post twice that you're saying I misrepped and I'm still having a hard time understanding why it's egregious. I see that I did misunderstand your read on Hectic and so I recant of that. However, in your post, you did lay out pretty clearly that you SR'd NM and scum leaned DD. But then you voted DD. In fact you continued on to shoot NM. So, why did you shoot NM if your SR was supposedly not as strong as your SR on DD? When did those reads change and why? I'm open to correction if I truly misunderstood this because I get townie vibes from you Fidget but I have a hard time getting why I am understanding that post incorrectly.

Not exactly a misrep, more like seriously misinterpreted the Hectic/NM thing. No worries about that though.

I always had Not Mafia as my number 1 scumread and I was always planning on shooting him, and nothing was ever going to change that. I voted NDMath and DD more or less to get a response, to be honest. I vaguely didn't like DD's vote on Ydrasse so I decided to act like I 100% caught him in a scummy mindset of knowing Ydrasse is town but still voting for her. I thought it was possible but I wasn't sure, I didn't really have a read on DD prior

Trying to get responses is exactly why I claimed to be shooting you, as well. I wanted to see how easily a dayvig claim could shift your wagon, and to where.

[Fidget]

UNVOTE:

[Fidget]

I didn't get too much from NDMath. I like his read on NM and his reaction to me voting him for the second time:

Pretty likely scum but glad the gamestate hasn't just been stalling on him.

Shouldn't glitch's flip be affecting your read on me?

I think he'll look pretty decent on a Starbuck scumflip

In fact, Starbuck more or less had the worst reaction to my reveal and to the shot.

I'm not sure if Fidget is gambiting yet or not. If she thinks Glitch is scum. She should just shoot and call it a day rather than make a ransom of it.

I had to step away for errands and work stuff, but seriously, that was a waste. All of that grandstanding to shoot Not_Mafia?

RIP dude. You didn't deserve that shit even if you were trolling.

C'mon. This seriously makes me roll my eyes. I don't know if that's just Starbuck having a vastly different mindset than me or if she's just scum.

The only thing holding me back from executing Starbuck is I'm not convinced in the whole town vs. 3rd party mindset slip.. thing. I wonder if scum is just piggybacking off of Hectic on that, cause I personally don't find it super strong. I think if Star is scum, it's not for that reason.

[Fidget]

though, if the chance to be a town pr arrived starbuck would pick it?

Absolutely.

why did you discard bg?

Because Wild Card was my other option.

????

Wild Card is you just get a totally random role, isn't it? So you threw away a town PR for a random card?

[Fidget]

I pretty much disagree with everything Starbuck says about Hectic. I don't really see why she's taking any of this personally.

That being said, I don't think she's scum caught in a lie either. I see the inconsistency Hectic is referring to, I just don't agree with this conclusion:

My thinking for you!scum is that you saw me ask for alignment preferences amongst everyone, and most people answered with town. You opted to also answer with town, instead of scum or third party (third party is something you've answered with very recently). The context is king in that question I quoted of yours. The question was "What is your favorite role?", and the talk about VTs aside, your answer was "I prefer third party." - I really don't understand how I'm twisting anything by stating these facts.

I don't see why scum Starbuck feels the need to lie about her favorite alignment. You are correct there's somewhat of an inconsistency, but the alignment-indicative stuff you're attaching to it doesn't hold up for me.

[Fidget]

Maybe this day will be helpful later, but I haven't learned hardly anything from it. My apologies I haven't been terribly active.

I think Starbuck's incredibly big reaction to Hectic's push somewhat suggests town. Same with DoubleDare @ me.

I think Ydrasse is town.

Raya I think had a good discard but I should likely do a revisit of her. Her 190 is decent.

No especially strong opinions on Glitch, Hectic, NDMath, and Pooky at this point in time.

I do feel Hectic may be stretching out his catch on Starbuck's inconsistency on Starbuck. It's true, but does it make her scummy? Does he really believe that it does? Agree with Glitch on this one

[Fidget]

I may not be around before deadline. I would agree to an elimination on NDMath, Pooky, or Hectic most likely.

VOTE: NDMath

[Fidget]

Her 190 is decent.

huh?

Eh. She took NM/Hectic's mason claim as real, so I'm fairly sure she's not partnered with either them.

That was a stronger argument back when I thought NM was scum, though. Oops. I still somewhat townread Raya regardless but not a lot. Her flip-flop on the Glitch/Pooky argument seems somewhat lacking of an agenda. However, if Glitch/Starbuck/Pooky are all town, then it wouldn't matter to her whose side she's on which could also explain why she doesnt have an agenda

[Fidget]

you don't think it's weird she put glitch at L-1 then decided to flip 180 the other way?

Well if she's scum with Glitch, she wasn't obligated to place him on L-1 right before the deadline ends (in her mind).

The complete timeline is that she agreed with Pooky, then changed her mind and agreed with Glitch, then voted Glitch to ensure someone dies before deadline, and then stated she finds Glitch to be in the right. She votes Starbuck at this point

What's your theory on it?

[Fidget]

Wouldn't Gladiator maker confirm you as town after using the ability, though?

[Fidget]

VOTE: Glitch l-2

[Fidget]

Also, Fidget didn't respond to me on why she disagrees with me on the case :[

Okay, just address this for me:
-You admitted earlier you have to pick and choose your words as third party or any other scum role.
-You prefer third party.
-In this game, you said you prefer town because you

don't

have to pick and choose your words.

Do you see the contradiction there? Could you explain that?

People can have more than one reason for favoring an alignment. If someone were to ask me my favorite alignment and why, it's possible I give a somewhat varied answer each time. I do not find this contradiction convincing because humans are not machines that will give the same answer to a subjective question every time.

The alignment being third party rather than scum makes it less convincing as well.

I see the argument you're making, but I do not find 'wording slips' like that to be very AI, personally.

[Fidget]

It leads closer to me claiming / scum figuring it out which is bad since mason is one of the most confirmable roles.

I don’t understand this. How is lone mason confirmable at all?

Well multiple masons would be. A lone mason claim can be counter-claimed by a real mason, if NDMath is lying.

So it's somewhat risky to fakeclaim mason. Especially with Hectic softing it. I like his recount of how he reacted to Hectic/NM's claims as well

[Fidget]

There's a decent chance Hectic roleblocked Starbuck, but also, he might have changed his tune after the Glitch scumflip and went for a potential partner of Glitch.

We should probably consider that werewolves may not be the only killing faction. It's possible Glitch was by himself and the mafia is the actual faction still left standing

Spoiler: card alignment %

Town - 58%
Mafia - 15%
Werewolf - 12%
Alien - 6%
Survivor - 2%
Condemner - 1%
Serial Killer - 3%
Cultist - 1%
Wildcard 0.6%

[Fidget]

My initial impressions

Fidget
DoubleDare

NDMath

Starbuck

PookyTheMagicalBear

Ydrasse
Raya36

I think, chances are, there's almost certainly scum inside the Starbuck wagon anyway. We may as well look at it like hunting for Glitches' partner, although I'm concerned there may be another faction.

[Fidget]

I refuse to believe he was consciously trying to fish for PRs, I still find that a spectacularly poor idea

But if you're right and he was fishing then yeah I agree. In any case my scumpool lines up with the opposite of Glitches' wagon anyway, so it all works out really.

[Fidget]

I was expecting way more scum in this setup. If there really is only around two, as it appears right now, I wouldn't have shot so early.

[Fidget]

Yeah I think he was freaking out cause caught for wrong reasons

[Fidget]

My initial impressions

Fidget
DoubleDare

NDMath

Starbuck

PookyTheMagicalBear

Ydrasse
Raya36

I think, chances are, there's almost certainly scum inside the Starbuck wagon anyway. We may as well look at it like hunting for Glitches' partner, although I'm concerned there may be another faction.

Why is doubledare so high?

He not-so-subtlely softed his role yesterday. I see you may have missed it.

I knew he was town from that point onwards, as did likely some others. He would have a made a decent enough nightkill, I would think, but only if you caught his claim. Really he was the only player who had a 0% chance of being scum, I am somewhat surprised scum doesn't kill that.

[Fidget]

Well, 0% chance of being scum now. Maybe 1% chance yesterday. Claiming that you have a town power role that is 100% confirmable the next day seems like a gambit that would fall apart quickly for scum.

[Fidget]

I agree with Pooky, Raya comes off a lot worse than Ydrasse here, in terms of Glitch-partner-y-ness

I could also easily see Ydrasse as mafia who thought Glitch was town and thought she'd get credit for hard defending him as he goes down.

I think we should have Raya claim

[Fidget]

I don't think Glitch rolefishes for PRs if he doesn't have a partner because if he's a solo werewolf he should be playing more for survival.

I was leaning towards solo because of his lack of roleclaim, since I think there's more pressure to last an extra cycle when you have a teammate.

This is a fair point. It's very believable to me that he went down easy because he was playing on his own, so he wasn't under any pressure to perform for his team

I'm highly vary of a potential mafia presence still in the game, rather than just a werewolf. If the single nightkill last night is indicative of there only being one team left, that means either Glitch was alone and we're dealing with mafia, or Glitch had a partner or more and there is no mafia. I am somewhat surprised if there isn't any mafia and a couple of werewolves are here instead, but it's certainly plausible.

Raya discarded one of the stronger mafia roles, suggesting that she at least isn't a weak mafia role. There are maybe a couple roles in the mafia I'd pick over strongman, and a few in the werewolves. Not a ton but they're there. There are also some cool alien ones.

[Fidget]

DD is town

NDMath I think is high likelihood town for the mason claim, but if he's a werewolf mason he can get away with it. His recap of how he felt about the NM/Hectic mason thing was pretty good

Starbuck I am thinking is town for her huge reaction to Hectic catching her inconsistency. I think if she were scum she would be less likely to have gotten so upset over it. Her being a counterwagon to Glitch is somewhat a point in her favor as well but it's less valid if we're dealing with multiball.

Pooky is pretty decent feels especially pending a Raya scumflip. There is still rival scum possibility but I'm leaning against that

Ydrasse I don't think is partnered with Glitch and I do think she prefers playing town to mafia. So that's pretty nice

Raya I haven't gotten any town feels from and has the worst positioning on the Glitch wagon. Her discard is a point in her favor for not being mafia but as a werewolf candidate she is decently likely. She also hasn't been reading the thread terribly closely which may be a sign of disinterest due to rolling scum. I think her evaluation of Star for being scum due to the lie was way too quick.

If I were to assume Raya is town, I'd suspect maybe Pooky, outer chance of Ydrasse and Starbuck. But I don't think these are scum at this point in time

FoS: Raya

[Fidget]

I haven't been reading super closely is correct but I have no disinterest in scum. I'd probably be paying closer attention since I feel a lot of pressure as scum. Although I should be paying a lot closer than I am :(

Ah, okay. Who do you suspect the most so far?

[Fidget]

Scum are scared to talk.

Very slow game!

Raya's posting hasn't swayed me much. She did list the two individuals I think might be mafia in the event she's town at the bottom, so that is nice but probably only after a green flip from her.

I find it extremely interesting she still doesn't know who the king-maker is. It's also somewhat interesting she put the king at the very bottom of her reads.

Still want a claim

[Fidget]

Scum are scared to talk.

Very slow game!

Raya's posting hasn't swayed me much. She did list the two individuals I think might be mafia in the event she's town at the bottom, so that is nice but probably only after a green flip from her.

I find it extremely interesting she still doesn't know who the king-maker is. It's also somewhat interesting she put the king at the very bottom of her reads.

Still want a claim

I know who the kingmaker is, I just wasnt making any assumptions since it's not 100% confirmed and something that probably could be claimed without worry of being NKed. But I suppose it kinda already was claimed. (Also I'm still pretty mad at myself and on denial that I missed the claim :/)

I don't really see why being the king gives any credit towards being townread. Outside of the kingmaker obviously town reading them.

It doesn't. But if you are scum, then putting Star at the bottom of your reads could be a risky move.

[Fidget]

yeahhh... do people here actually townread starbuck? or is it like, a thing where everyone is just trying to appease the king lmao.

because in retrospect, while i didn't think hectic's case was in the best faith at the time... knowing he's town now i'm more inclined to think in this situation, especially with the lack of two kills, that starbuck is maf.

Starbuck taking Hectic's suspicion of her personally pings town to me. I wonder if she would be so quick as to accuse Hectic of attacking her integrity as a person, as scum. Especially if she is was actually caught out in a lie

That's the main thing I have on Star. Comparatively, she's below DD/NDMath by a decent amount, though.

[Fidget]

Uhhhhh if I’m honest I’m feeling better about town!reya.

Why's that?

[Fidget]

Alright. I'm a cop. I get a guilty if the player is aligned with mafia and not guilty otherwise. I checked DoubleDare since he was my most uncertain read and got not guilty of course. (Which is why I was saying I was super annoyed that I missed the claim). That's also why I focused a lot on who would be aligned with the WWs and decided it's unlikely there are any more. That way I can check someone who I don't think is a ww and get a "false inno".

That's a mighty convenient investigation to have, if you're scum fake claiming. I do kind of want to kill you for that, I think there's a decent chance you stalling and waiting is all fake and you're just trying to get out of an elimination with this.

But it is consistent with you not noticing Double's claim. If you were scum trying to save yourself, I'd at least expect a stronger investigation claim. That one is so weak.

But at the same time, maybe that's just what you want us to think

I think overall I'm going to let Starbuck decide probably. I decently do not believe Ydrasse is scum, so where I would go next after you, I am unsure.

[Fidget]

Well played Star!

...maybe i'll take a hero shot next time

[Fidget]

Yeah that and DoubleDare, the confirmed town, had to be getting kept alive for a reason

Aaaand Ydrasses' claim made no sense for scum.. scum Ydrasse would've claimed guilty, not an inno I would think.