Micro 959 - Greater Idea Game Over

[DoubleDare]

Not_Maf discarded Werewolf Miller? Door number two must have been *amazing*!

What WAS it?

VOTE: Not_Maf

[DoubleDare]

VOTE: DoubleDare
For calling ww miller is a strong role.

Powerful, no. Hilarious? Yes!

VOTE: DoubleDare
For calling ww miller is a strong role.

it honestly feels like you are trying to make a big deal out of Pooky's got a power role stronger than a doctor and you guys should shoot him. Which is pretty scummy imo

This is a very passionate response!

[DoubleDare]

Glitch, why did you discard mafia goon?

[DoubleDare]

@glitch did you win?

[DoubleDare]

Fight! Fight! Fight!

[DoubleDare]

My gut says pooky town, fidget scum

[DoubleDare]

@Reya: What I noticed was that interaction with you over pooky/starbuck. It looked like you caught her being hypocritical and she tried to cover herself.

[DoubleDare]

@Reya: What I noticed was that interaction with you over pooky/starbuck. It looked like you caught her being hypocritical and she tried to cover herself.

That could potentially imply Starbuck is they're partner as well.

Ouuu and are Reya is on the board!

Reya +20

[DoubleDare]

@Reya: What I noticed was that interaction with you over pooky/starbuck. It looked like you caught her being hypocritical and she tried to cover herself.

But I'm not even attacking Star for what Raya noted. How does that make any sense?!

Raya's point was that she found it odd people were focusing in on Pooky discarding Doctor but ignoring Starbuck discarding Bodyguard.

Mine is that I think the pushback to Glitches' question was bad. Which applies to Pooky, Raya, and Starbuck. After Raya agreed I had made a good point, I moved on to Star. Raya saying that it was weird people were ignoring Star's role in favor of Pooky's role did not play a factor.

Ok, well, that’s just what it looked like to me.

[DoubleDare]

“ I dont think Glitch would try to do that even as scum. That's a crazy plan! If glitch were scum with Pooky not on his team, he would naturally assume he's a strong PR or another scumteam. No fishing necessary.”

For me, it’s the “even if,” and “if” that make it seem like you are conditioning his action on his alignment.

[DoubleDare]

This is the first time I've ever played this setup. I'm starting to understand the point of looking at the discards, but I don't think I'm all the way there yet. I'm just going to throw out some ideas and you all can talk about them / ignore them as appropriate.

Starbuck

-

bodyguard

I come from epicmafia also where bodyguard is more like ambusher. This version just takes the bullet for the target. I'm guessing from this discard that Starbuck wants to live as long as she can through the game. I could see this either way

Glitch

-

Mafia Strongman

This is a pretty decent mafia pick if you are forced to play as mafia, so I'm assuming Glitch didn't want to play as mafia.

Not_Mafia

-

Werewolf Miller

This is such a bad discard that I would believe someone takes mafia over it.

NDMath

-

One-shot Gladiator

This is a strong role for someone who is confident they will be townread. maybe NDMath didn't want to have that burden, maybe they aren't confident in their political abilities or ability to town tell, or maybe the other role took less effort? Math has been effecting though, so I doubt that's the case. Not sure on this one.

DoubleDare

-

Tracker

I hate trackers because 1) It's hard for me to nail scum day 1 and 2) it's too much WIFOM even from the tracer's point of view.

Raya36

-

Mafia Goon

This one is pretty easy to understand. I'd take almost anything over goon. So bad the other card could be any other mafia and Raya would probably take it.

Hectic

-

Vanilla Townie

This is a bit bold. I think many players would like to be VT. This discard really says something. I'm not sure what, but it does.

Fidget

-

Alien Silencer

This is a hero discard because silencer is so unfun to be targeted by. Still, I think most people pick it over scum.

PookyTheMagicalBear

-

Doctor

A little different from bodyguard not that I think about it. Imagine your picks are "doctor" or "some mafia card". That's kind of a two-fer if the mafia role is any good- because you are denying the town a doctor. Some people would pick a different town PR over doctor, but that strategy element can't be overlooked.

Ydrasse

-

Wrong Place At the Wrong Time Townie

Universal Miller - ok. Well that could go either way I suppose. Any Town PR would be preferable, but a fun scum card would be better, too. Who wants to be a miller?

[line][/line]

So my reads based purely off discards are:

Townlean

Null
Starbuck
NDMath
Raya
Hectic
Ydrasse

Maybe Mafia
Not_Mafia
Fidget

Scumlean
Pooky

VOTE: Pooky

[DoubleDare]

A little different from bodyguard not that I think about it. Imagine your picks are "doctor" or "some mafia card". That's kind of a two-fer if the mafia role is any good- because you are denying the town a doctor. Some people would pick a different town PR over doctor, but that strategy element can't be overlooked.

this logic can easily be flipped the other way - if you pick a doctor over a mafia role, you gain a doctor on the town side and reduce the scum count by 1.

also this logic can easily be applied to discarding a tracker.

That's absolutely right Pooky, I have no defense against your argument here. Well done.

[DoubleDare]

Alien Silencer IS scum, Double. The aliens are a faction like the mafia and werewolves. They only get one nightkill throughout the game, but usually have some kind of strong ability. Unless I'm misinterpreting you saying "Most pick it over scum" ??

Tracker is kind of good. In a normal game they really can only half-clear people from commiting the kill, and find PRs. This game though where there's likely a ton of PRs, I bet it goes up in usefulness. What do you mean by trackers create WIFOM?

Doctor is decent but if you only save one person it's somewhat less helpful because MYLO exists. I can think of many other roles that could plausibly be picked instead. It's just less likely that a player would get two high value PRs, if that makes any sense. But Doctor isn't the end-all best PR.

I think the gladiator picks both targets but don't quote me on that. It's really not super strong but it looks fun! To me anyway.

Bodyguard is a confusing role to me. It can be helpful if they protect the right person, I bet. But also I guess taking the kill shot for other people isn't especially appealing. Hmph

I interpreted Alien as 3rd party, and I meant

red scum

, but I may be overestimating other player's aversions to playing any anti-town role.

I'm not arguing that tracker is bad in general, it's just bad for me personally. In my experience either I get a result, usually no visit, and then I have to sit on that result until it's relevant. If I do get a follow, it's not a clear maf/town result, and so there are always available easy fake claims (fruit vendor or whatever). That's what I meant about it spawning wife.

I think doctor is incredibly powerful, as it denies the mafia's best tool for eliminating town. As a doctor, you can usually guarantee the best player (in your opinion) stays in the game to the next day.

[DoubleDare]

Mafia Strongman looks like one of the best scum roles. Glitch probably would have picked it if he were given two scum cards and had to choose mafia. However! Since he didn't pick it, that would probably suggest he got a town and a scum card.

Werewolf Miller is a terrible scum card. I think a neutral player would avoid taking it and pick the other card, regardless of what the other one is because it's way more likely to be a better card. Hectic claims NM takes scum roles at any opportunity he gets. If that meta is correct, then NM would have picked this card if it were the other scum. Meaning he very likely had two scum cards. I don't know if Hectic's meta read is correct or not though.

I think Raya would have picked whatever her other card was over Mafia Goon. No surprise.

Ydrasse also probably would have picked anything over Universal Miller. Unless she hates playing scum so much where she'd pick the Uni Miller over a scum card.

Hectic discarded a VT. Essentially same as the last two except that VT isn't an awful role. Just a fine one.

Here's what I glean from the discards (and NM meta)

>>Higher chance of being town

Glitch

Neutral

Raya
Hectic
NDMath
Ydrasse
Starbuck

>Slightly higher chance of being scum

Pooky
DoubleDare

>>Higher chance of being scum

Not_Mafia

It's not a lot. I don't think we can lean on the discards much.

Whoops I just realized Glitch wasn't on my list - yes I agree with you Fidget.

[DoubleDare]

I'm heading to bed, good talking!

[DoubleDare]

What's your favourite role, Starbuck?

Some of DoubleDare's wall of discard assessment sounds like he's joking, and I really can't tell.

No intentional jokes, anyway!

Reya: I was wondering if anyone would notice that

[DoubleDare]

For instance, my thinking is of a serial killer right now. I have a dayvig and I'm not afraid to use it.

DoubleDare, why shouldn't I dayvig you? You discarded tracker because you wanted scum. What do you mean that Pooky is absolutely right?

Pooky was right that my argument about his choice could be applied equally to me!

Why shouldn’t you say it me, hmmmm...because I’m trying to figure things out?

[DoubleDare]

Glitch, I know Not_Mafia hasn't said much here, but he's provided impressive walls of analysis in the PT. He says he wants to hold onto his reads and reasoning for a bit before outing them. We're already up to page 4 in there, and I've told him to slow down and it's probably kinda unhealthy for him but he's really committed lul

Be patient with him.

haha there is absolutely no way that is true

[DoubleDare]

Regardless, I think the glitch wagon is decent. On the other hand, I too get weird vibes from Ydrasse.

[DoubleDare]

I'm quite suspicious of Ydrasse. Not only did she manage to barge into a full 9 player game (does she have dirt on the listmod?), she changed her profile picture to an anime girl just in time for the start. Manipulative.

I'm masons with Not_Mafia. All seers on us.

You know, I took this as a joke and forgot about it to the point that when it was brought up again I was like "where is this even coming from?"

[DoubleDare]

Is tenticales townie really a thing?

[DoubleDare]

Oic kind of an alien miller interesting

[DoubleDare]

hi, i am awake now. i understand glitch's viewpoint because honestly it's pretty fun fmpov to be a vt running around not having to worry too hard about your pr actions. you just vote and scumhunt.

i don't think the questioning is trying to fish out anything about pooky's role in particular so much as the mindset that they're approaching the game with which is far more indicative than the nuances of a role itself.

VOTE: Starbuck

And you there, bodyguard-discarder-glitch-wagoner. What have you got to say? About my comment. On the glitch wagon. That you're on

ngl this feels a bit like trying to piggyback on the posts against glitch after glitch explained their relationship to the role.

like i get that we're all here trying to figure out Who Did What With What Role but this feels like the laziest sort of execution of it. or maybe i just don't like the tone of it.

fwiw i don’t think that maf!glitch chooses this hill to die upon because it would be the dumbest hill possible. i tr the pointing finger that moves around to everyone if only because it seems like it doesn’t know what it’s doing wrt pointing out maf perfectly. agendaless if you will even if it’s a bit jumpy

What is this strange obsession?

VOTE: ygdrsssl

[DoubleDare]

I think it would be nice if they clarified.

Yrsssl I just don’t know why you go out of your way to defend glitch with your townread three times

[DoubleDare]

What happened to Mario’s kart when it broke down?

It was toad away

No, Lakitu tows the karts. -20 points for you.

[DoubleDare]

Lol horseshit

[DoubleDare]

Not Mafia and Hectic are both trolling you! I don't trust a single word they're saying roles-wise at this point. No they're not masons. I'll freak if they really are. Maybe Not Mafia is a tentacled townie who knows. I'd probably bet on him being an Alien, instead, actually. I totally see him throwing away the bad werewolf in favor of an awesome alien role, and then insta claiming alien miller at the start

I agree with Raya's evaluation of Ydrasse. I don't like DoubleDare's evaluation of Ydrasse, it feels slightly agenda-y. How to explain...I don't get his scumread of her at all. Just because she defended Glitch for multiple posts adamantly?

I think her assertion that she'd pick town miller above scum roles is true, and I somewhat think DoubleDare knows this but ignores it. Call it a gut read, but I'm getting it from the way he words 219. "I just don't know why" pings me.

VOTE: DoubleDare

This is my best vote so far. Not Mafia is probably an even more valid vote but that's suuuuper boring.

First you disparage NM/H's claim with no basis whatsoever. This looks like a desperate attempt to discredit the solidifying mason claim and seed suspicions.

"agenda-y" but can't explain - don't get the scum read when I clearly said "vibes." "Just because she defended Glithc for multiple posts" is town? Why? how does it make sense for uninformed player A to defend player B even if they have a town read? Why do it 3 times? unless you can give a town reason for that, you are talking out yo ass.

You think I KNOW that her assertion is true? How in the universe could I KNOW anything about her or her assertions?

YOUR post feels "agenda-y" and contrived. You even set up Not_Maf as the second suspect in your agenda by casting more shade but not voting.

VOTE: Fidget

I have a provable Town Power Role which will be 100% confirmed tomorrow. What you got?

[DoubleDare]

Oh my god day. It how sexy. Day iv wow

VOTE: unvote what do you mean it won’t effect our liminations?

[DoubleDare]

Bitchin só who’s dead ?

[DoubleDare]

Bang bang baybe I knew you were town from the start

[DoubleDare]

I’d shoot hectic ZOINKS!

[DoubleDare]

What a horrific shot.

[DoubleDare]

I’m starting to SR fidget here.

[DoubleDare]

I'm quite suspicious of Ydrasse. Not only did she manage to barge into a full 9 player game (does she have dirt on the listmod?), she changed her profile picture to an anime girl just in time for the start. Manipulative.

I'm masons with Not_Mafia. All seers on us.

Ngl this feels like riding not_maf meta coat tails

[DoubleDare]

I'm on Pooky's side of this. This seems more like you're putting info more useful for scum than for town.... PR hunting or anything that could lead to that is not good. Also I don't understand why you went after Pooky and not starbuck when bg is also a protective role

VOTE: glitch

Would this suggest a glitch/Starbucks team?

[DoubleDare]

If you're talking about the masons comment, Hectic was almost certainly planning on doing that before the game even started, by virtue of him saying "/in as mason" in the queue.

I'm not really sure what you mean by riding on NM's coat tails. You mean to say he's behaving in a joking matter because NM is?

Yeah that’s what I mean, hopping on the meme train as it were

[DoubleDare]

You wanna explain that orrrr

Pedit: What does that even mean

That was just like the worst big shot I’ve ever seen. You went for the policy instead of shooting for scum.

[DoubleDare]

but you understand she's still a town dayvig right? there's no way a mafia dayvig plays it that way

Why not? Seems really safe and confirmy

[DoubleDare]

Ehhh ok I’m dumb mafia dayvig would just hold till mylo
Still a terrible shot. Always go. If with dayvig, always.

[DoubleDare]

*go big with

[DoubleDare]

it’s just no the shot I would have made but it’s probably technically fine, I don’t mean to dump on you. Sorry!

[DoubleDare]

VOTE: glitch

[DoubleDare]

VOTE: unvote

I’m gunna reread

[DoubleDare]

VOTE: Starbuck

Why did you want me dayvigged, DoubleDare? Did you not hear I'm a nexus and would reflect the action onto someone else randomly?

No, and I didn’t find it just now quickly skimming through your iso, wheen did you say this? If you had claimed that before the day kill I’ll absolutely would have encouraged testing your claim.

[DoubleDare]

Did anyone ask starbuck why she discarded BG?

[DoubleDare]

Hot new take:
VOTE: raya

No scumhunting, flippyflop votes on pooky and a looooooong stretch where she parks her vote on pooky while town reading him, only to jump off and then scumread him again.

[DoubleDare]

Glitch saying pooky is wrong but not scummy isn't scummy because town are wrong often?
My point is more so that he's being scumread with reasons and his answers to those reasons aren't arguing he's town, just that he's right. [The post directed at me, made after I said that, excluded.]

How would someone argue that they themselves were town?

[DoubleDare]

Well there’s 4 hours left and I don’t want to flip starbuck.

VOTE: ndmath

[DoubleDare]

F-1

[DoubleDare]

I am phone posting so I can't quite efficiently and these are just jumbled thoughts. But out of current wagons the only one I'm happy with is NDmath. His posts lack contribution and seem iioa and fluff. I think his view on me is poorly based in part in our previous game together where I was scum and he's reading my general playstyle as AI when it's just how I play regardless of alignment. And I am an easy target for scum to jump on, especially when given such an easy opportunity to be like "oh look glitch is being glitchy and I associate that with scum so vote him." Not cool. VOTE: NDmath

You think he’s wrong, or scum, or both?

[DoubleDare]

Why did you have zero reaction to the other mason claims?

[DoubleDare]

Why did you townread hectic?

What would be unidieal about players wondering if you were mason?

[DoubleDare]

Why did you think hectic would be fake claiming? How did it make you feel? What went through your mind?

[DoubleDare]

what did you think his motivation for fakeclaiming was?

[DoubleDare]

It leads closer to me claiming / scum figuring it out which is bad since mason is one of the most confirmable roles.

I don’t understand this. How is lone mason confirmable at all?

[DoubleDare]

Choose wisely my liege

[DoubleDare]

That’s a pretty high level of not reading.

[DoubleDare]

Scum are scared to talk.

[DoubleDare]

NDMath I think is high likelihood town for the mason claim, but if he's a werewolf mason he can get away with it. His recap of how he felt about the NM/Hectic mason thing was pretty good

If I'm teamed with Glitch day 1 plays out much differently.

Could you go into detail?

[DoubleDare]

Uhhhhh if I’m honest I’m feeling better about town!reya.

[DoubleDare]

I don’t know exactly! I’m also feeling like ydrggg is kinda scummiest. But like I dunno

[DoubleDare]

Maybe

[DoubleDare]

NDMath I think is high likelihood town for the mason claim, but if he's a werewolf mason he can get away with it. His recap of how he felt about the NM/Hectic mason thing was pretty good

If I'm teamed with Glitch day 1 plays out much differently.

Could you go into detail?

Bussing doesn't seem like something one does in multiball I guess? Especially when neither has actual abilities.
It's wifom but I would have made him roleclaim something when fidget intented to dayvig him.

At eod after I claimed I could have easily stayed on starbuck instead of moving to glitch and starbuck probably gets eliminated instead.

What do you mean “when neither has any special abilities?”

[DoubleDare]

What if ther choice do you have?

I really want an answer from math.

Where’s pooky at?

[DoubleDare]

speculating over the town roleblocker role

1. To what are you referring?
2. Why didn't you wait for Starbuck to claim before giving your report?
3. Why did you track Starbuck twice?
4. What did Starbuck do Night 1?

[DoubleDare]

Hmm, what are the chances Hectic blocked Pooky N1?

[DoubleDare]

Starbuck
NDMath
DoubleDare
Ydrasse

for christ's sake.

Starbuck, you need to claim.
Math, you too.

[DoubleDare]

Starbuck, what do you think?

[DoubleDare]

s starbuck, you are right, of all the things i wanted to do to get YOU out specifically i decided to track you twice. why wouldn't i just... lie? or say i tracked someone else if i was scum?

i mean... that's wifom?

[DoubleDare]

Tracking starbuck a second time makes sense from a town perspective.

So what’s is your vote doing?

[DoubleDare]

I don’t think starbuck is WW with glitch.

[DoubleDare]

I don’t follow. Where do you see SB and Glitch pairing evidence in the thread?

[DoubleDare]

Sigh, I reread today and landed on ND as the likelier partner.

[DoubleDare]

Although hectic roleblocking starbuck does make a shitload of sense.

[DoubleDare]

Actually UNVOTE: Ydrasse
Since you can track me, either clearing starbuck or shouting "ninja".

What does this mean math?

[DoubleDare]

From my perspective there are two possibilities:

A. Starbuck drew ninja werewolf from her wildcard.
B. VOTE: Ydrasse

We mechanically have to be in a 3:1 mylo but DD's confirmed town so we might as well hang today.

So you believe she drew wildcard?

[DoubleDare]

i outted because i... honestly forgot ninja was a thing. LMAO. funnily enough, that makes it easier i think? because pooky was a mafia-immune serial killer, we're looking for a ww now, yeah? and given that ninja-ww exists... well. yeah.

I don’t understand this either. How does forgetting ninja licença your decision o out at that time?

[DoubleDare]

*influence

[DoubleDare]

Did she pick ninja werewolf over bodyguard?

[DoubleDare]

Glitch's quick hop onto Pooky is suspect given the way obvious rolefishing and the overdefensiveness throughout 19 because he felt like Pooky dodged his over-the-top aggressiveness.

In what ways did I rolefish?

How would you determine the difference between regular defensiveness that is NAI, and overdefensiveness that is scummy?

If all of my posts were not fluff, were actual content, and we're creating content, why should I not post them? Which one of my posts that I made should I have not posted then?

I do not like this idea of wanting to throttle content when the content is actually substantive. That's sketchy to me.

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I never said throttle content. My concern is that you piled question upon question on Pooky when he didn't even get to your prior questions yet. I'm just seeing you go after him rather than have a conversation/waiting for his reply before continuing to your next point. That's not helpful to the game state when you're just adding a lot of assumptions. So to me that doesn't feel very substantive and feels like you're creating a firestorm before the person you're questioning can even reply. I don't find that helpful.

As for the rolefishing, starting with your 16, you set him up to fail and are completely unfair. You want Pooky to respond in a specific way, but there's not really a way that Pooky could really answer your questions without referencing his current role and I think you set it up that way so you can say "but I told you NOT to do this" to push suspicion. So I can't blame Pooky's skepticism of you in the following post. Then your immediate jump to "OMG ARE U AVOIDING MY QUESTION" and addition of more questions, alongside a vote, just feels as though you wanted to vote him in the first place and didn't really care about his answers. All of this on Page 1. It just feels like nothing he says is going to satisfy you because you already made up your mind.

Additionally, I can see your point in 46, but again, I still think you set Pooky up to fail because I don't think there was any answer that he could have given that you would have been pleased with, as said in your 32 & 33 when you shirk the responsibility for pushing this topic in the first place. I think you could have gone about it better and have gotten the results you wanted.

And then this like rubbing his face in it because he didn't live up to your expectations just feels real condescending and rude, it's just real lame.

@Pooky - see how I talked about the role I did not choose, without talking about the role I chose? That's what I was asking from you. Do you think DoubleDare is role fishing by asking me why I discarded mafia goon?

Basically, you can keep saying that you said to "not reveal your current role," but you can't get upset when the conversation goes there when you, in fact, led it there despite not wanting him to reveal.

So this is bussing?

[DoubleDare]

Interesting.

[DoubleDare]

I’m trying to figure out which one of you kills math instead of me

[DoubleDare]

VOTE: ydrasse

Either way I really like this setup. Thanks all.

[DoubleDare]

Rats

[DoubleDare]

ugh yeah that's all true. I feel pretty dumb