Micro 980: EMITGBSMoD [game over!]

[Bingle]

Datisi told me to play. I refuse.

[Bingle]

Ico, Chem, and Bingle: ya miss me? I missed you lot something fierce.

Everyone else: welcome to the Thunderdome, bitch.

I never miss. I’m something of a sharpshooter

Last confirm in.

i think i was seventh to confirm but i may have been eighth; the game thread said 6 at the time.

Everyone else: welcome to the Thunderdome, bitch.

we've crossed paths previously - in my first game on site (as team rocket queen). bingle was also in that game.

Lies. This is my first mafia game. In fact, what’s mafia? I’m here for the poker tournament.

[Bingle]

okay okay okay okay
how to solve a crime that's yet to be committed

Can’t remember entirely, but I think the plot of that story was that you have to manipulate someone into committing the crime in the first place.

Also, pretty sure I was the last confirm, the thread opened pretty much immediately.

[Bingle]

Nope. You appear to have me confused with someone else. Maybe firebringer or a younger Patrick Stewart. Don’t worry, it happens a lot.

[Bingle]

You mean you’re not? Goddammit. There goes the plan of using you to read people’s minds and tell me when to fold.

[Bingle]

Also, happy scumday flips.

[Bingle]

ayy this PL is looking nice!

It's like we're all highly paid actors or something.

[Bingle]

Any reason you want to tunnel shelly?

[Bingle]

Compelling argument.

VOTE: shelly

[Bingle]

red check on tgp

So what you're saying is they know who the scum are and we should sheep them.

[Bingle]

PAGETOP

[Bingle]

~ godfuckingdammit bungle

I'll be here all week. And by here I mean on the PAGETOP. And by all week I mean FOREVER.

[Bingle]

i think better question is why classic rvs of vote:x red check:y if she isn't going to be around for replies to it

Why? If it's a classic RVS vote why does she need to be around to respond to replies? What replies are you expecting?

[Bingle]

Hi taytay.

VOTE: inutile

Serious vote.

[Bingle]

There is someone missing dearly from the plist so I'm going to have to just include him in my city.

The only way bugspray could know Hectic is not secretly in the game on an alt is if they themselves were Hectic. Hectic alt for this game found.

Of course, that also makes them town, cause everyone knows hectic can’t roll scum.

[Bingle]

It’s pronounced keh - dollar sign - ha.

Seriousness of vote intensifies.

[Bingle]

It’s pronounced keh - dollar sign - ha.

at one point it was, perhaps.

Spoiler: The best 30 seconds of Ke$ha's career, starting at 2:40

[youtube]

is this:

Seriousness of vote intensifies.

related to this:

'vanilla town'.

?

Not solely. It is related to post 40 in it's entirety.

[Bingle]

i like 59

O rly? Tell me more.

[Bingle]

red check on tgp

So what you're saying is they know who the scum are and we should sheep them.

i think better question is why classic rvs of vote:x red check:y if she isn't going to be around for replies to it

I don't like this post. It looks good on a surface level, but I don't think it's actually a genuine question. Mostly because, in the previous post, chem was responding to me talking about the red check on tgp:

red check on tgp

So what you're saying is they know who the scum are and we should sheep them.

exactly!

i think better question is why classic rvs of vote:x red check:y if she isn't going to be around for replies to it

Why? If it's a classic RVS vote why does she need to be around to respond to replies? What replies are you expecting?

i think it is classic rvs vote because it is meant to be replied to. like vote:x red check:y leads to 'why vote for x if you're red checking y?' especially since in this case y had made a few posts, which also leads to 'was your read on y real or was it just rvs?' which is all well and good if she is around to respond to and evaluate those replies (which i was also waiting to see if anyone would reply in such a manner) but quickly loses usefulness outside of rvs, so at the time it seemed strange to me that she would make an rvs that seemed to invite replies while saying she wouldn't be around.

In fairness, I prompted this post with my questioning, but I really dislike that inu is painting herself as looking for responses to chem's rvs after she actively ignored mine.

inni looks up from her book (how should a person be?) and notices chkflip and bingle staring at her, so she pulls the hood of her oversized university sweatshirt over her hair. due to her posture (shoulders slightly slouched, head down), it also covers most of her face.

the front pocket of her sweatshirt contains most things. from it she retrieves her headphones, placing one in each ear, then her phone. she plugs the jack into her phone and drops it through the neck opening of her sweatshirt, then pulls it through the bottom. she unlocks her phone, rerandomizes her 'work' playlist, then presses play. warrior by kesha begins. it seems the volume is already at the lowest setting inni can hear, but she presses down to make sure. having done so, she presses up again. satisfied, she puts the phone in the front left pocket of her jeans (refitted levis 501s marketed as 'boyfriend jeans').

she looks up again and notices her colleagues still looking. having an epiphany, she reaches back into her pouch and fetches the lanyard containing her credentials, and places it around her neck. the side facing the world shows a picture of inni on an above average day and the text 'dci inutile'. the side facing inutile simply contains the text 'vanilla town'. she returns to her book.

This is both slipping into gimmick posting and claiming VT in response to light pressure. It comes across as super worried about the pressure on her, which I wouldn't expect from a VT. Being worried about an rvs vote and a single serious vote is a pr and scum indicative behavior, but she's also claiming to not be a pr, which is counter to the behavior of a pr worried about being wagoned. Also, based on my role I think there are likely few VTs in the setup, but that's neither here nor there.

Spoiler: The best 30 seconds of Ke$ha's career, starting at 2:40

[youtube]

while i strongly disagree that this is the height of kesha's career, i also do quite appreciate this.

Not solely. It is related to post 40 in it's entirety.

if this is something other than 'attempting to appear unconcerned with votes on her' or whatever, i am interested. i asked about 'vanilla town' specifically as had it been about that wording vs. this:

Sample Vanilla Townie role PM:

Spoiler:

vanilla townie

Welcome,

Playername

. You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Abilities:

• You have no special abilities, but you have your voice and your vote.

You win when there are no longer any threats to Town and at least one Town player is alive.

The game thread is here. Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name.

that probably would have been pretty town indicative for you, but alas.

You're objectively wrong about Ke$ha. Also, that would not have been town indicative of me as I believe vanilla town vs vanilla townie slips to be completely useless. The people who are likely to remember which wording exactly was in their PM are the same people that are likely to check the OP for the sample PM, so trying to build a wagon based on that would actually have been very disingenuous and scummy.

What is concerning here, however, is that you apparently do put stock in those kinds of slips and yet are more than happy to burn the potential source for tells before it's actually useful to you, which suggests to me you're not interested in actually developing reads.

[Bingle]

PAGETOP

[Bingle]

what do you think of my posts that do not fit your narrative here?

Bugspray took the feels out of my mouth here. If you think there are posts of yours I *should* be townreading, feel free to share, but honestly when it comes to reads on you you're literally the last person in the thread whose opinion I care about.

If you have spicy takes on other people or me then I'm glad to hear them though.

[Bingle]

I got what you meant. I need more give-a-fuck than I currently have to make the judgment of that meta read (is it something exclusive to scumspray or do they do it as scum because they do it as town?).

I'm gonna hold off on TGP for the moment because I'm interested in what they do next.

Is the chemread a tone thing, or is there something specific you think is towny?

I agree actually that shelly's intro has a weird feeling to it. It almost completely mirrors what I've said in the thread so far, and I'm kinda wondering if that's a "Shelly is trying to pocket me because she knows I can derail the shit out of wagons I disagree with" or a "Shelly and I are on the same track and thus she's probably town thing". I have faith that shelly will have spicy takes in the coming days for me to dissect though.

[Bingle]

why has bingle not checked out that HOT coincidence?

What?

[Bingle]

You mean the point where you've done something twice as scum and I haven't looked to see if it's something you also do as town yet?

[Bingle]

nevermind, shell is probably shellyc not bingle; i thought it was an avatar related nickname but this makes more sense.

it also seems very possible this:



is not a turtle.

research suggests this is binky barnes, a bulldog.

That's actually Bingle. A Pirate.

You mean the point where you've done something twice as scum and I haven't looked to see if it's something you also do as town yet?

there isn't much to the meta - it seems that the only two times bugspray has ever made a read based on 'self awareness' were scumreads of town!me, the first time they did so as mafia.

Have you played with bugspray in games other than those? If so, please lynx.

[Bingle]

@ bugs: In one of your games you mentioned using the self awareness tell as town successfully. Do you have any examples?

Also, I just read a ton of bugs games, and as far as I can tell, they've never gone a whole game without being misgendered, which is kinda fucked up. Let's break that streak. Their prounouns are They/Them.

[Bingle]

@ bugs: In one of your games you mentioned using the self awareness tell as town successfully. Do you have any examples?

No. I actually don't remember ever using self awareness to read as town other than this thread and I don't remember implying that I have used it.

trying to reverse engineer how bingle reached the conclusion that you had leads me to think that it is most likely from the link to the post from mystery g9, as you say that you have used the 'forgotten' someone was in the game tell successfully as town.

Indeed.

[Bingle]

I just read a ton of bugs games

did you learn anything that can currently be applied to this game?

Not that I'm interested in sharing at the moment, no.

[Bingle]

The interaction surrounding

Subject: micro 951 mystery box of silver gnine: well we're done here.

hari is the player i forgot was even in the game and usually when thats the case the person is scum this has ltierally happened to me twice so im pretty sure thats somehow a good way gfor me to read

you made the exact same read of me when you were mafia and i was town in micro 932: a normal blitz: viewtopic.php?p=11704326#p11704326

someone else maybe to watch out for shiki? like when im trying to think of ppl in the game without reading it usually the people who im least likely to remember have ended up being scum. i know this definitely happened to me in micro 911 where amrun was a lurky scum

struck me as interesting, and I misremembered which tell that you'd claimed had worked for you in the past. The end goal, of course, was to see if there were town games where you'd done something similar to what inu is saying is scum indicative with as little additional effort as possible.

[Bingle]

My guess is they meant to post that elsewhere.

@bugs, I figured it wouldn't bear fruit, but there was no harm in asking. If you could point me at games, it would have been helpful. If you couldn't, it left us no worse off. It was not in any way a clever trap designed to catch you in a lie in a completed game where you had already flipped scum.

[Bingle]

What were you hoping to gain from it?

From asking the question? Additional meta data.

From the post in question? I noticed something tangential to the game that might be worth bringing up later but isn't right now.

[Bingle]

Generally speaking, tone is easier to read in similar situations. and if you could provide situations that had more similarities to what was going on in the thread that would have been useful.

[Bingle]

VOTE: TGP

I dislike that all of inu/chk/Chem are lending passive support to the TGP push without actively supporting the wagon. My guess is if TGP is scum, the buddy is in those three and they don't want to commit to a bus before knowing for sure TGP is going down.

[Bingle]

Kind of messed up to call me a lisr in a way where to refute the lie would be breaking site rules.

Not quite what they did.

TGP implied that you were intentionally breaking site rules by discussing an ongoing game in this thread (or fake doing so in a way that would be trivial to find out with an egosearch) in order to gain a slight advantage of the NAI assertion you don't pay particular attention to the details of games being likely true.

The question remains, if TGP thought you were actually cheating: Why the fuck would you? Like, there's no tangible benefit to be had there. There's literally no reason for you to cheat to give evidence for a behavior that's NAI at best and yet TGP thought it likely and called you scum for it.

[Bingle]

while i strongly disagree that this is the height of kesha's career, i also do quite appreciate this.

hmm i think youre wrong. but are you scum for being wrong about this? not sure.

As much as I appreciate your completely correct support of an objective fact, you can't just come in here, sing a single line of Shake It Off, and duck the thread.

We need at least 3 songs here, TayTay. I demand your Drops of Jupiter cover at least.

[Bingle]

Didn't realize Chem was already voting you. That's actually negates that point regarding her.

[Bingle]

What is the scum motivation in trying to manufacture support for the idea that they wouldn't pay attention to the thread?

I can't see a way that answering that could break site rules. You shouldn't need to talk about any other game that may or may not exist.

[Bingle]

~ i'll get a pagetop one day...

[Bingle]

Also, flavor is very on point so far, dats. My congratulations to GB.

[Bingle]

what do you think of my posts that do not fit your narrative here?

Bugspray took the feels out of my mouth here. If you think there are posts of yours I *should* be townreading, feel free to share, but honestly when it comes to reads on you you're literally the last person in the thread whose opinion I care about.

If you have spicy takes on other people or me then I'm glad to hear them though.

is this because intuile has a bad take about ke $ ha?

Nah. It's because inu either townreads inu because of role PM or will pretend to townread inu because of role PM. There's literally nothing interesting about inu's take on inu's alignment.

Her bad take about ke $ ha is immaterial in this instance.

[Bingle]

It's page 8 and someone could lolhammer.

Un. Fucking. Vote.

UNVOTE:

Who in this list are you worried about a lolhammer from?

I'd probably BoP eliminate anyone for it, tbh.

[Bingle]

So you're basically pre-washing your hands in the event they flip town?

Yeah that's a hard no from me, bud.

that being said, for 133, considering that it is probably true (why would town lie about that?), they should be policy eliminated into oblivion

Pray tell, good sir, how am I

supposed

to interpret you literally calling bugspray town?

Go on.

I dislike that all of inu/chk/Chem are lending passive support to the TGP push without actively supporting the wagon.

"I disagree with your opinion." =/= "I think you are scum."

Yeah, see... That's exactly what I'm talking about.

that being said, for 133, considering that it is probably true (why would town lie about that?), they should be policy eliminated into oblivion

Pray tell, good sir, how am I

supposed

to interpret you literally calling bugspray town?

Go on.

So you're basically pre-washing your hands in the event they flip town?

Yeah that's a hard no from me, bud.

^That looks to me like "I want to be able to claim I pushed TGP when he flips scum, but I'm not sure he can't talk his way out of the elim yet."

As does:

it also feels strange that the golden paradox would vote for bugspray but never give any input on the self awareness thing.

it also feels strange that the golden paradox would vote for bugspray but never give any input on the self awareness thing.

it's like, i present evidence of something that could be a coincidence but seems more likely to me to be mafia indicative, but i also have a somewhat shaky history with coincidences so i ask for input, which only bingle has provided.

then, the golden paradox votes for bugspray based on what seems very very likely to be a coincidence, without having considered the previous unrelated coincidence. like for them to believe it's not a coincidence they'd have to believe that bugspray broke the rules tactically, which is an accusation i think would take a lot more evidence to act on than what i had previously presented, so to act on one but not the other seems ??? to me.

[Bingle]

^That looks to me like "I want to be able to claim I pushed TGP when they flip scum, but I'm not sure they can't talk their way out of the elim yet."

FTFM. Sorry, TGP.

[Bingle]

Who in this list are you worried about a lolhammer from?

@chk

i think taylor swift and bingle votes on the golden paradox are fairly scummy.

inutile why do you feel those votes in particular are scummy?

did you look at the vote pattern and try to determine why i might feel those votes in particular are scummy? it doesn't really seem like you are trying to evaluate my slot.

bingle votes me in 38, doubles down shortly there after, and then their vote/read completely stagnates even though they are presented with a lot of new information (how i feel about other slots, my continued interactions, the handful of my games they would have read while reading a ton of bugspray games, etc) while a few votes are cast elsewhere but no new wagon forms. but then as soon as the golden paradox wagon starts gaining momentum, bingle jumps on it and says that if the golden paradox is mafia i am more likely to be as well. it's a pretty face up mafia indicative sequence.

taylor swift votes chemist with a late rvs vote, disappears from the game. returns, immediately puts the golden paradox to e-1. does that seem... not scummy to you?

Or... Bingle stopped actively pushing you when you put out a lot of readable content in favor of pressuring other people to make content. I’m not the type to be satisfied with one or two reads. I want reads on everyone.

And Bingle called you out for soft pushing a lim on TGP without actually voting there.

Let’s explore, though. What is my scum motivation to tying you to tgp scum and then pushing for a tgp elim? If tgp is scum, either I’m town or bussing. If TGP is town, then saying you’re a likely partner of a flipped town player would get me no closer to limming you. Your defensiveness here makes me think I’m right.

i hate both of the bingle and taylor slots especially considering they're both currently sitting on unvotes

Sitting on the unvote that was directly requested and which I’m engaging chk over actively. Uh huh. Super sketch. Pull the other one.

[Bingle]

tl;dr:

No one in this thread is likely to lolhammer, you think TGP is going to flip scum (I think, the sentence is a little unclear), you think we need more discussion before EoD.

Okay. I'm perfectly fine with Tayl0r being able to scumclaim via premature hammer here.

VOTE: TGP

Who are you trying to develop further reads on?

[Bingle]

[Bingle]

Ico, what is your take on TGP? Particularly this, and their reluctance to address it:

What is the scum motivation in trying to manufacture support for the idea that they wouldn't pay attention to the thread?

I can't see a way that answering that could break site rules. You shouldn't need to talk about any other game that may or may not exist.

[Bingle]

If I think it’s a vote, it’s a vote, no tricks

242 is terrible

bingle want to join on taylor

[Bingle]

yes as part of your vote on the golden paradox, which is part of why it is mafia indicative. why would town!you think 'ah inutile is pushing someone i am about to vote for, but she did not vote and i am going to thus she is mafia if the golden paradox is!'? like that just seems like mafia logic to me.

if thegoldenparadox is town, the scum motivation for you to tie me to it is to have better reasoning for your push, as you were previously voting me.
if thegoldenparadox is mafia, the scum motivation for you to push them and tie me to it would be because there was already a lot of pressure, and you can get credit for it, especially since your immediate thought was 'and these three other players are mafia also!'.

Three people, FMPOV, saw obvscum behavior and then left their votes from RVS. Turns out, Chem was voting TGP in RVS, so she's good, but noting the obvscum behavior and avoiding dropping a vote is not a good look. I called that shit out.

Calling you and flippy out has literally no bearing on TGP's likelihood to be scum. If->then statements are not symmetrical. And if TGP is my scumbuddy, letting me bus them is probably better for town than trying to derail the wagon.

[Bingle]

The scum motivation is that it's a way to lower heat on yourself by pointing that out as a thing you generally do.

So... I did a thing I normally do to setup a weak self meta defense of myself while I was under no pressure.

Sounds like a really ineffective way of generating townreads on myself when I was already being townread, but at least it doesn't presume a failure in basic logic.

[Bingle]

This is the second time you've imposed your read as my read. Please stop doing that.

If I parsed your sentence improperly (as I acknowledged might be the case), maybe correct that parsing instead of complaining about how I can't read the shit you say:

This isn't to say that I don't think we'll miselim or anything -- far from it

-- it's just that we're in too early for a hammer at all for the base to have a consensus of good reads.

bugspray
shellyc
Tayl0r Swift
Iconeum
Chemist1422
chkflip
inutile
TheGoldenParadox

Is my rough town to scum. There's 4 days and change left on the clock. The only slot that hasn't really done *anything* is Chem, who isn't being prodded by anybody. Flipping TGP gives me information about most of the players on the list, and someone hammering out of the blue when there's been so much noise about it is laughable.

More to the point though, I asked who

you

were trying to read, because as I see it you've done nothing but complain about there being an E-1 wagon since post 178. Oh. And a naked vote.

[Bingle]

maybe i worded that poorly - there was no connection made in my statement between the likelihood of the golden paradox being mafia and you calling us out. simply that it is more likely you are partners to me viewing it as the benefits of you taking credit for it are increased by your using your push to also point at us as potential partners. like you asked what the scum motivation for you doing so would be and it is quite clearly there.

Does anyone want to explain this to me?

[Bingle]

I'm considering today as massclaim day, and am not yet sure.

Please no claims until I've finished thinking about it, presumably in the next 24 hours.

[Bingle]

Why the hammer, btw?

[Bingle]

:thorface:

[Bingle]

Uhhhh. Bugs, you're dead.

[Bingle]

Mass claim pros: Mafia less likely to fake PR. I've already softclaimed. I can potentially resolve a counterclaim scenario.

Mass claim cons: There's a really high chance of a scum roleblocker, otherwise my role doesn't make much sense. I guess commuter or ascetic would do it too. There's probably another investigative, because mine is not strong enough on it's own.

I think I want to partially full claim, and then leave it up to other people whether they claim for now.

I am an investigative role, although not an incredibly powerful one. I crumbed this very early. I targeted inutile.

[Bingle]

Not claiming further, I want to see if you/someone else has an explanation forthcoming for what I saw, assuming I saw something.

[Bingle]

[bah]

Oh, shit. I might be getting force replaced, depending on mod/list mod determinations.

[Bingle]

Basically, if what bugs posted was worth redacting over, because I saw it I'm now a compromised slot. The mods might decide I can still play, but I'll have the vague knowledge of what I read influencing me, which means theoretically me and anyone else who saw non redacted 319 should be replaced.

Anyway, shutting up now until I hear from a mod JIC. If I do end up getting replaced, I'll see you all in the afterparty. If not, I'm sure dats will let me know.

@mod: please PM me if the determination is that I'm allowed to continue playing.

[Bingle]

I demand that Tayl0r be force replaced. Maybe bugspray is interested.

[Bingle]

i don't know what this means.[/quote]

:thorface:

i don't know what this means.

The most important emoji in ms history.

[Bingle]

Bingle I'd like for you to fullclaim before I claim

I'm interested in hearing why I should do that.

[Bingle]

Mass claim pros: Mafia less likely to fake PR. I've already softclaimed. I can potentially resolve a counterclaim scenario.

Mass claim cons: There's a really high chance of a scum roleblocker, otherwise my role doesn't make much sense. I guess commuter or ascetic would do it too. There's probably another investigative, because mine is not strong enough on it's own.

I think I want to partially full claim, and then leave it up to other people whether they claim for now.

I am an investigative role, although not an incredibly powerful one. I crumbed this very early. I targeted inutile.

yeah, okay. bingle is either town here or like informed mafia roleblocker, because my role supports this. i am also an investigative, and i targeted bingle with an action last night.

no way same

Bingle I'd like for you to fullclaim before I claim

I'm interested in hearing why I should do that.

[Bingle]

Damn, I should have targeted Bingle. Apparently there was a party.

okay i will claim a little bit more

i have information on the action that bingle performed last night

so that is why i want him to fullclaim before i claim my result

So do I, which is kinda the point. And I asked first.

Also I’ve already claimed my target and that I have a breadcrumb while apparently three people have results on me that probably conspire to town firm me. I’m flexing my weight and going last.

[Bingle]

Mech play is "outguessing the mod" with extra steps.

And why an INVESTIGATIVE ROLE started it is beyond me.

To an extent it is outguessing the mod. But to a greater extent: crafting a fakeclaim isn’t easy, especially if you don’t know what you’re supposed to be crafting. If one of you claims cop and then another claims cop it’s not rocket surgery to deduce that somebody lying.

My preferred claim order is role only chem >chk >tgp >myself I think. Save results until after everyone has committed to a role.

[Bingle]

Also if you’re a protective hiding outside this nonsense probably don’t claim yet. A protective has a really good shot at a successful protection here.

[Bingle]

chem >chk >tgp >myself

to speed this along you should claim your results along with your role after thegoldenparadox claims their role and then reverse order the list from there. claims already taking too long.

Always intended to out my results with my claim. There’s absolutely nothing stopping scumhunting in the meantime though.

VOTE: chkflip

To paraphrase DGB, claims take no time, fakeclaims take an eternity.

[Bingle]

So... you have to wait for the thing to happen to use the information provided by the thing happening. Cool story.

What do you think about flips statement that there’s definitely scum in the claims? What do you think about flips not complaining about the hammer? What do you think about the tayl0r flip, the Bugspray kill, the idea that you should be townread off of the hammer or literally anything else?

This isn’t just at inu, btw. The claims thing is evidence, sure, but it’s evidence in addition to what we already have, not in replacement of it. Takes without the full picture of claims are arguably MORE valuable as mafia doesn’t know who among the claims are pushable right now.

[Bingle]

why would chkflip complain about the hammer? because he was pushing for an elongated day earlier?

i think i made an okay decision in the situation, though my immediate reaction to the taylor flip was that i had made a mistake; i think maybe that's because i become hopeful of mafia flip even when i don't think it is super super likely when i hammer.

You don't see a big difference between chk's treatment of TGP being put at E-1 and Tayl0r being put at E-1?

And I'm not really worried about whether you thought you made an okay decision, I'm concerned about whether you think looking at that hammer and going "Okay yeah, that's town" is reasonable. Because I had pretty much the opposite reaction, in that it solidified my scumread on you.

[Bingle]

inutile is town for that hammer.

i don't have the information that chkflip has when making that claim, so it is hard for me to evaluate. it seems quite likely to me that there is mafia in the claims currently, as three investigative claims is a bit ???[/quote]

Four. I am an investigative and I was investigated 3 times, supposedly.

[Bingle]

Not sure how that broke, or why the first quote showed up. Should be clear enough though.

What evidence points to scum Bingle?

[Bingle]

What evidence points to scum Bingle?

everything i pointed out day one and the bugspray nightkill

So... my read stagnated on you, I pushed TGP, I called you out for a weird interaction wrt TGP who you just outed as a pr read of yours that you were defending, and bugs died. I can see how some of that could need me to out my results to be resolved, with the exception of the fact that you've provided an answer for why your interaction with TGP was weird. Why is bugs dying scum-me indicative?

[Bingle]

Kinda tinfoily, but thank you for sharing. My thought was that bugs was probably killed to maintain the gamestate and I was probably alive because scum didn't see the softclaim or were willing to gamble that my role wasn't particularly dangerous. I hadn't even considered the possibility of an attempt at framing me, because normally no one looks back at the reads of the eliminations.

What posts made you think TGP was a PR?

[Bingle]

YoUrE nOt PlAyInG mY wAy *VoTe*

Get the fuck outta here with that dogshit.

I continuously asked people to stop E-1'ing motherfuckers and y'all just did NOT want to listen. What's the point in dragging that into today? Oh to shade, coolcoolcoolcoolcool.

My. Role. Doesn't. Help. You.

I. Do. Not. Have. Anything. To. Share.

You. Pushing. That. Is. Fucking. Stupid.

Move along.

If you're town, you've already painted the target on your back and there's no putting that genie back in the bottle.

The only benefit to keeping mum about your role now is only helpful to you if you're scum. Claim or die.

[Bingle]

Subject: Redneck Mafia GAME OVER PARTNER!

Well prematurely claiming is scummy anyway so it will wait until I'm in the tent

WRONG

Fabricating a fakeclaim takes an eternity, paraphrasing your role PM takes but an instant.

Yeah, I went looking for this to steal the DGB quote, and found your ISO.

VOTE: chk

[Bingle]

i will not be outing my result until bingle fullclaims with his target

[Bingle]

Any thoughts on the questions I asked inu, TGP? Or the back and forth we had?

[Bingle]

Yeah, I don't see my not limming chk here.

I'm a complex vig. I can only kill non vanilla players.

[Bingle]

I'm not sure why Chem was super concerned about waiting to out tracker until after I claimed when I'd already announced that I targeted inu.

[Bingle]

and did you try to kill me?

Yeah. You hard claimed vt, I was never not going to target you. It's also why I didn't really bother with reevaluating my read on you after a certain point.

[Bingle]

FWIW, I think inu came across as town in our back and forth today, but my role doesn't actually tell me anything about her alignment. It says I was roleblocked, inu is VT, inu is goon, or inu was targeted by a protection. I was hoping to leverage into a scumclaim.

[Bingle]

Actually...

chk is probably a PR. I can just kill him tonight.

UNVOTE:

[Bingle]

Chem town on balance. chk dead scum tonight. That leaves 1 scum in shelly/tgp/inu/ico.

Would both scum have claimed actions on me?

[Bingle]

Actually...

chk is probably a PR. I can just kill him tonight.

UNVOTE:

back of the napkin math says taking that shot is we eliminate town today is ..........................

Literally the same as limming him the next day, but without wasting an elimination?

[Bingle]

The alternative is that I shoot for scum fakeclaiming vanilla, but I honestly don't see a world where flips is town. I'd gamble the game there 100%.

[Bingle]

Town checker heavily implies a roleblocker exists, actually.

VOTE: chk

[Bingle]

i am very confused by your confidence in that.

Compare his ISO in the game I linked to what he's done in this game, coupled with the refusal to claim and the fact that he's shared fuckall for reads (Literally just Ico being town).

[Bingle]

balance

vig in micro hm

Vig 9er is balanced, and has two goons. If I'm capable of shooting scum, they have more power than in Vig 9er, so town also needs more power. TGP's claimed role is completely useless. Therefore the only other claimed power is town.

[Bingle]

Bit far, yeah. I'm probably stacking aggro from out of game things here. Apologies Bing.

No worries. We both know I have thick skin and I can handle aggressive. Nothing you’ve said has even approached the line where I’d get upset. Hope if you’re dealing with tough RL shit it goes alright.

[Bingle]

simple

Can only target vanilla

Loyal

Can only target town

Rolestopper

Can doc kills

You're a fucking idiot.

I die if I claim.

I die if I don't.

Way to go, winner, "outguess the mod" is helping town so much right now.

So much doubt.

Why, when picking who to doc, did you pick one of the three people who had been wagoned, and the only person who had soft claimed PR? Why, when it became obvious you didn’t have a chance of stopping a kill anymore did you freak out about being forced to claim?

I almost don’t want to bring this up, but there’s a potential synergy to make chk and tgp useful if they’re both town. If they target the same Vt claim and scum doesn’t have a role blocker then they can conftown that player. If either of them is scum or scum has a role blocker scum can use this to fake a guilty or an innocent. I cannot think of a way to mitigate the risks there.

[Bingle]

Man, I really should have hit post before trying to work out that action synergy. Didn’t realize I’d spend that long.

[Bingle]

also yeah bingle went nowhere so

Wait, what?

Chem could you walk me through your thought process wrt claims today?

[Bingle]

I'm unexpectedly busy today, but I do need to look at setup spec.

I should have the time to devote to this tomorrow.

[Bingle]

where is my friend bingle

Sorry, been playing electrician most of the day. Fucking magnets, man.

[Bingle]

i just witnessed a Bulletproof Vengefull in a game, so i'm not counting out any possible roles that don't seem to make sense

it would be swingy as hell, but i've seen wonky stuff going into games lately...

so i researched the bulletproof vengeful game (mini normal 2169: random facts) and it seems that our moderator, datisi, was on the minus end of the bulletproof vengeful and thought the setup was unbalanced because of it so it seems kinda unlikely datisi would then immediately run a micro normal with a complex vigilante...

also if you squint ever so slightly look how beautiful this setup is:

4 vanilla town
1 checker
1 gated tracker
1 simple loyal rolestopper

1 mafia goon
1 complex roleblocker

Why do I, as complex roleblocker target a claimed VT or fail to act? Why do I, as a goon with a complex roleblocker partner, let my partner make the kill instead of using the roleblock?

hi

i think simple rolestopper may make more sense as a scum role than complex vig

that is my setup input

It really doesn't. If chk is the scum, he's almost certainly not simple or loyal, because otherwise his role only really interacts with TheGoldenPooky. TheGoldenPooky could be scum realclaiming or you could be scum realclaiming, but if chk is scum that's 100% a fakeclaim.

[Bingle]

Oh, wait. Shelly got replaced, not TGP. I'll have to wait for a future game to call a slot the Golden Pooky.

TGP/Pooky, if you hydra, you're contractually obligated to use that username.

[Bingle]

Mechanics rundown:

I entered the day saying that I was an investigative who had targeted inu. I stated that my results could have been caused by several things and asked that anyone who had directly influenced that claim speak up then on the basis that I could use my knowledge to catch out any scum fakeclaiming an interaction with my investigation.

TGP then said that they'd targeted me. Chem then said that she'd targeted me. flips then said that he'd targeted me. I demanded I be able to claim last because I'd softclaimed PR early D1 and outed my target already and three investigations on me meant I was likely clear anyway. It turns out that literally none of the claims could in any way effect any action I took on inu or confirm me, which kinda sucks, tbh. Inu's response to me implying I had a result there was to double down on the VT claim and engage with me, which I found town.

Chem claimed tracker without outing results (and I assumed that she saw me visiting inu as claimed), flippy refused to claim, TGP claimed checker while I was pushing flippy for not claiming. I fullclaimed, and voted flippy.

UNVOTE:

Not sure the order, but flippy claimed in a "I'm gonna get killed either way!" post and chem outed a notarget result on me, which is apparently consistent with me being blocked or failing via targeting a VT, so my action was stopped either through inu actually being vanilla or me being targeted by a blocking role (or both).

I have reservations on both flippy and chem claims. Chem does not look to me like someone who has a tracker guilty at all prior to my claim. Flippy didn't want to claim and managed to leverage going last and then showed a lot of concern about being the nightkill as well as an awareness that he wouldn't actually be useful post massclaim and thus would be a terrible NK.

Flippy/TGP could theoretically give us a mutual investigation on VTs if both are town and there's no scumblocker. If either of them isn't town or scum has a blocking role, the investigation is completely useless. Flippy's claim doesn't meaningfully interact with me other than as a target. Anyone flippy can rolestop I can't kill anyway. Chem interacts favorably with all three other claims, but scum tracker would also be a useful role in this setup. TGP interacts slightly with me if there's a scum rolestopper and is also a potential kill, but could theoretically be scum realclaiming. If TGP is scum realclaiming, they're almost certainly not the only scum power so I'm not particularly interested in eliminating there today.

tl;dr: I'm very mildly leaning flippy scum based on claims.

The two wagons at EoD also make for some interesting reading, I can probably give a tl;dr on that later if you want.

[Bingle]

[Bingle]

Flippy literally got yelled at for being too mean to me by inu.

Also, no pagetops for Datisi.

[Bingle]

Eh. He's been off the entire game, but there definitely wasn't a lack of aggression earlier. He spent most of D1 bitching about people putting TGP to E-1. The fact that he wasn't similarly worried about Tayl0r hitting E-1 is one of my bigger question marks there.

Why are you scumreading Ico, or is it just PoE?

[Bingle]

I don't think it's likely, no. I'm assuming TGP's claim is a trueclaim based on the way they did so and contextual roles and the fact that checker is a pretty out there fakeclaim. TGP + me could maybe be a balanced town against a scumteam with no real power, but I don't see claims panning out the way they did if that's the case. That would mean that if there's two mafia claiming PR TGP would be a mafia checker. If both scum are PRs I'm slightly better than your average vig, so the remaining scum would have to be something dumb like multitasking bulletproof roleblocker. Could I balance a setup like that? Yeah. Is it likely this is a setup balanced like that? No.

I was more interested in whether it would make you/Ico more readable.

[Bingle]

I agree that inu's looked pretty town today though, FWIW.

[Bingle]

There was a team mafia this year?

[Bingle]

Holy shit, it's still the same year as those games? I thought those were last year. WTF even is time.

[Bingle]

It really isn’t, though.

TGP was E-1 for most of yesterday, and now mechanically no one thinks they’re scum. I’ve re-evaluated you despite my scumread there and an objectively terrible hammer largely because of your reactions to the claims. We’re at a consensus pool of one in Ico/Pooky and one in flips/chem/me Which is huge.

Basically the only thing that hasn’t changed is your loltunnel on me.

[Bingle]

Because it cut off conversation during an upswing in conversation?

Like, the flipped town player had literally just asked for more time to contribute and there were outstanding questions directed at multiple people, including "Why are you townreading Tayl0r?" directed at me. It was objectively terrible and one of the worst hammers I've ever seen.

And I backup modded Stellaris.

[Bingle]

Inutile why is it Bingle?

Because inutile thinks it was scummy of me to point out that it was weird that both inutile and chk were probing TGP without committing to a vote while sitting on RVS votes and that it was worth looking into inutile and chk if TGP flipped red.

Because inutile has decided I'm scum and thus can't be telling the truth about being a vig, you know, the only claim that's actually semi confirmable out of the lot.

Because inutile wants to singlehandedly lose the game for town.

Take your pick.

[Bingle]

I've been open, actively solving, and pushing a protown agenda since literally page one, and claimed what is pretty much suicide-as-scum when I had no need to do so before any setup information came out.

This is one of my most transparently town games of the last six months. Inu's wall of poking at me completely ignored the counterpoints to literally every one of her arguments with the exception of the "Can there be a vig in a micro" one, which is a dumb question in the first place because one of the staple balanced micro setups is vig + 6VT vs 2Goon.

[Bingle]

like let's say taylor swift is given more time to contribute, and you convince someone that taylor is town based on your reasoning of why you were townreading her. then what? thegoldenparadox (who you now believe to not be mafia mechanically) is hammered? why is this better?

I can't even express how stupid this line of questioning is. First the false dichotomy of "IF I HAD WAITED WE WOULD HAVE HAMMERED TGP INSTEAD!" Second wearing "I make terrible decisions!" as a badge of honor. I'm going to end up being meaner than chk if I continue engaging you.

Talking to you is wasting my time at this point.

[Bingle]

Yes. Her response to me fishing for a guilty was pretty town, and the engagement we had about the other players at the beginning of this dayphase struck me as genuine.

[Bingle]

are we better off sorting in the pr claims first, or in the VT pool?

Theoretically? The VT pool. Scum almost certainly shoots in the PRs tonight.

Practically? Whoever we're most sure on. A scum lynch here takes us pretty close to autowin.

[Bingle]

Pooky, do you genuinely think there's a world where I'm a complex mafia roleblocker who did not have a way of knowing if my action was successful, targeted the D1 VT claim, softclaimed on P3, outed my target D2 with no knowledge of the roles town might have after shooting a VT on the basis of "the person who was eliminated said they were my only viable scumbuddy", and then claimed vig so that I'd come under harsher scrutiny if I didn't ever make a successful kill, which I wouldn't be able to do?

Because

that

is the tinfoil theory inu is using to prop up her tunnel.

[Bingle]

?

why do you have to be that? Can't you just be a goon?

I'm a goon who claimed to have acted AND OUTED MY TARGET BEFORE KNOWING THE NUMBER AND COMPOSITION OF THE TOWN POWER has literally the same problems.

If I'm anything that didn't target inu, why the fuck would I claim that I did?

[Bingle]

Please unvote, inu likes to lolhammer apparently.

[Bingle]

mod notes

~ Iconeum standing weekend V/LA.
~

hi datisi hows your day

as pooky said, it's been pretty good :3

SAUCERY! THE MOD CAN SEE THE FUTURE! BURN HIM AT THE STEAK!

[Bingle]

does complex vig kill mafia goons?

Nope. Goons are vanilla.

[Bingle]

So I just noticed that we're at less than 24 hours and that seems like a massive waste of time.

[Bingle]

If the question is [Design Constraint] can you build a balanced setup where three roles are all town in a 9p, the answer is yes.

If the question is do I think it is likely that we're in one of those cases, the answer is still yes. I don't understand why multiple scum would claim to have targeted me.

From a design standpoint, trying to nail down the exact composition of scumpower is not really useful, so long as it's possible that a setup can be created that is reasonable.

For example:

BINGLE/TGP/CHK vs 2 goon

Bingle is a negative utility role that confirms itself if it kills successfully. CHK is slightly less than a doc. TGP is a weak investigative that is hard to eliminate and potentially gives clears in conjunction with CHK.

BINGLE/TGP/CHEM vs Rolestopper Goon

Bingle is net positive utility but unlikely to have early impact. TGP and Bingle can theoretically mutually confirm a player as vanilla. Bingle is the only outright clear, but there's potential for a guilty on the Rolestopper. Scum can interact with town power, but Goon is safe from both tracker and complex vig early, which means town can't outright win the game based on their PRs without scum having some opportunity to interfere.

[Bingle]

I think the idea that 2/3 people claiming to target me last night were scum is hilarious, FWIW.

[Bingle]

Not gonna be around for deadline, so I guess

VOTE: pooky

[Bingle]

Is that a guilty claim?

I tried to kill ico.

[Bingle]

Is that a guilty claim?

I tried to kill ico.

yes but i'm not sure who it's on

Spicy.

[Bingle]

checked chkflip, succeeded

Why?

[Bingle]

also i'm pretty sure it means chk is legit

I don't see a way you could get that result.

[Bingle]

If you saw chk visiting anyone but ico, chk would be confscum.
If you saw chk visiting ico, that implies that ico is town so long as chk is town.
If you saw chk visit no one, that tells you basically nothing.

So I guess the question here is: Why are you lying?

[Bingle]

ico is lying, or chk is lying, or you're lying.

I made that post prior to reading your 795, and didn't bother editing when I saw there were new posts.

[Bingle]

chk, unvote a minute.

[Bingle]

So, basically, the takeaway is that assuming your solve is correct, we're in autowin?

[Bingle]

i am pretty confident 2 goons is not a thing here so i think this result clears chk of being scum

?

[Bingle]

Who does scum rolestopper chk target here?

[Bingle]

ico probably

Why?

That's a 0 gain action.

[Bingle]

Actually... That's probably a fair point if you assume that the scumteam is exactly chk/ico. I don't see how a failed result on ico would softclear him though.

[Bingle]

V/LA til Wednesday

[Bingle]

I'm back, I'll read up shortly.

[Bingle]

Okay, scumteam is either TGP/Chem or Ico/someone.

My biggest concern here is that Chem's proposed plan wins the game for scum tonight if she's scum with literally anyone, including Ico.

As such, I will not be shooting anybody tonight, unless we no elim somehow.

I'm going to dual ISO chem TGP tonight to see if they make sense as a pair, because otherwise Ico has to be scum.

[Bingle]

so we can rule out bingle being with anyone but ico

like, officially

Yes, if I were scum with notIco I would have just hammered and won.

[Bingle]

That also applies to flippy, btw.

[Bingle]

I don't see anything specifically pointing at chem/TGP being impossible as S/S, but I did have a thought. Can someone link me to the game where Dats beat Ico with a checker fake claim?

[Bingle]

The lack of a hammer means Ico is definitely scum, right?

It means you plus tgp conf scum

ah yes the scumteam is obviously tgp/tgp

Op scumteam, lol.

[Bingle]

also i dont think we should state who we think is clear in order to prevent scum from killing a clear townie overnight

I disagree. If Ico flips blocker, I'm going to die. Therefore, mech clears need to be outed. If there's a notIco blocker, scum is probably going to no kill to avoid a 50/50 XLO because they don't have to worry about me killing them if they get a miselim. If Ico flips town we lose. Talking about reads doesn't really have a drawback when scum probably already knows what they're doing until the endgame.

Datisi claimed checker on November 14th in Mini Normal 2175 and crumbed checker on October 31st. This game started on November 6th and TGP claimed checker on the 13th. Dats also had a checker in his last game:

Subject: Mini Normal 2163: MItGBSMoD VOICE OF MOD:

Surely

surely

The NRG, se stupidly townsided as they sign off on setups as being, did not sign off on:

Informed loyal cop, jailkeeper, town checker, full commuter

Vs

Informed goon, rolestopper

Although the more I look at it the more I think “yes. yes, that is exactly the sort of thing the NRG would do, and this is why I stopped playing normals”

i was actually told this was scumsided?

like at least i thought it's in the realm of balanced????

i will get yelled at post game i already see it

A brief meta dive of TGP lends credence to the "unaware of checker" bit. I know they have alts that I can't for the life of me remember, but iirc they're pretty much exclusively playing mafia on this account now.

Ico in 2175 did actually consider Dats fakeclaiming as an option, which could point to knowing that checker is a decent fakeclaim, but does dats fakeclaim checcker knowing a town player in that game is already in the headspace that there's a checker fakeclaiming in this one? I think the answer there is no. Which pretty much rules out Ico/TGP scumteam.

Which means my decision today is Chem/Ico. If it's chem and Ico, either elim is equally good, so I need to decide which of chem and Ico is more likely to be a flips partner, and, if it's Chem, convince TGP to consider it.

[Bingle]

TGP/Ico or BungoBongoBingle/Ico.

I don't have a better answer than that.

"I could've" anything is WIFOM bullshit.

Towncase Chem for me?

[Bingle]

WIFOM bullshit

what the FUCK
if the scumteam was not (someone, ico) or exactly (tgp, chem), the latter of which... yeah. then scum would be gamethrowing by not quickhammering.

Yes. That's why I'm looking at (tgp/chem) and possible Ico partners.

[Bingle]

It's fucking Thanksgiving.

Also no.

It's Ico over Chem. You're more than welcome to attempt to convince the tribe otherwise.

You are townreading Chem. You and Chem cannot possibly be partners. I want to know your reasoning on townreading Chem because I can trust that it's either genuine or correct (or both).

This isn't rocket surgery.

[Bingle]

You know that Ico is currently E-1, right?

Like... Legitimately, you and I can only be scum with Ico. TGP and Chem could be scum together, but neither of us could be scum with either of them.

[Bingle]

assuming ico flips scum i think we are very close to auto

bingle shoots TGP, i track either bingle or TGP, doesn't matter what chk does because his action will fail no matter what

What do you think about the fact that this is an autowin for a Chem/Ico team, chk?

[Bingle]

wait okay this must be a townslip from chk not a scumslip right

?

[Bingle]

page

[Bingle]

get

[Bingle]

I’m waiting for tgp to explain how chk town slipped. I thought the quote with a question Mark made that clear.

[Bingle]

Why wouldn't scum chk make that mistake?

[Bingle]

we're kind of on a time limit here

I'm aware of the deadline and singlehandedly capable of ending the day. The time limit isn't a real concern.

[Bingle]

Why wouldn't scum chk make that mistake?

I agree that scum chk with not ico isn't possible, I'm just not sure why scum chk would be any less likely to argue that people couldn't be scum without Ico for lack of quickhammers than town chk.

[Bingle]

I guess if you think I’m scum who is trying to run down the clock you have to count on chk to not be completely incompetent and cast a hammer vote if he knows he can’t be around until deadline.

I kinda don’t have that concern though.

[Bingle]

Ico is V/LA, so there’s really no route to a town win if he isn’t scum.

Intent.

[Bingle]

*if it

[Bingle]

There was literally nothing wrong with your setup and anyone telling you otherwise is just a salty peanut.

Eh. Not really. The setup was fairly townsided. Checker + Loyal rolestopper is a powerful investigative that mutually suggests town. Tracker + rolestopper is a powerful combination that mutually suggest town.

It wasn't egregiously townsided (in fact, getting rid of the loyal probably would have made it about right) but the capacity for 4 relatively conftown players on D2 isn't desirable in a micro. Basically, on D2 both scum players had to win their respective 1v1s.

Could scum have won this if I hadn't lolclaimed? Sure. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out where setups can be improved.

Regardless, I did enjoy the game Dats. Thanks for modding.

[Bingle]

Oh, I just noticed the lazy modifier. That works, balance wise. I'm not a huge fan of the setup, but it was roughly balanced.

[Bingle]

i think you guys would've had a better shot of winning if you killed TPRs instead of VTs?

Lol Ico <3 you're the best.

Eh. The kills were fine.

I shouldn’t have gotten bored and gone with a lolclaim (sorry again Ico), but by the time we had the option of killings tprs inu was a better shot. She was impossible to lim, none of the PRs could guilty me and we were pretty much locked into my ability to eliminate a piece of town power over me as our wincon. Ico had already succeeded where it had to.

I fully intended to lim Ico there, I was just trying to sell that I was paranoid town and didn’t pull it off.

[Bingle]

I’m good with releasing the scum pt, btw.

[Bingle]

You're just not trying hard enough, chk. Those pockets are so damn comfy.

[Bingle]

I really shouldn't have.

Refuge in Audacity should never be as effective as it ends up being though.

[Bingle]

Normal is the direction perpendicular to the reference plane.