Micro 20 - Clueless Mafia (Fin)

[Kdub]

VOTE: Mortius
obv-scum from reading his iso.

And, since we are going to massclaim tomorrow anyway, it's not such a big difference to do it a day earlier.

Not opposed to massclaim, but how do you know we are massclaiming tomorrow anyway? Do you anticipate being in lylo by then?

[Kdub]

Malakittens and Mortius either don't understand the joke, or reacted in an interesting way to my vote...

lylo or lylo in one day with one scum to go. Add to that that I expect some significant amount of power (and if there isn't on our side, that's a good moment to find out). So yeah, massclaim tomorrow is probably a good idea regardless of what happens.

Thought about this a bit more, and while I can see the arguments for massclaim tomorrow (even if not lylo), I'm thinking we shouldn't massclaim today. Part of the benefits of massclaim are that PRs have had night(s) to act, so their claimed actions can expose lies/inconsistencies, whereas massclaim D1 cannot. Also, the order in which we claim (assuming popcorn style) gives information as well, and that doesn't really work so well when there isn't anything solid to go on right now.

Mortius's post 25 comes across as forced.

I don't think Toon is scum with Mortius because that's an awfully quick bus if he is.

[Kdub]

Not really seeing the case on TF.

CoolDoG trying to align himself with the Mortius wagon without actually voting or indicating intent to vote him looks suspect.

[Kdub]

I'm still not seeing TF-scum based on the vote switch alone. I'm thinking Mortius/CooLDog, with the possibility of Mala as well.

[Kdub]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CooLDoG

No, because I was wondering if we should still do a mas claim today.

Nope, not buying it. If you were simply wondering whether we should massclaim, you wouldn't have suggested that mykonian's read on Mortius was related to his

reason

for wanting a mass claim. You would have just asked him whether he still wanted a massclaim or not.

[Kdub]

Yes, lets pick on subtle differences in wording. I'm just trying to play optimally here.

I don't see it as a subtle difference, I see it as a difference in intent.

Malakittens, why is TF scum in your opinion?

[Kdub]

Mod, can we have a countdown timer to the deadline?

I have absolutely no idea what myk is doing with his self-vote, but CooLDoG is still scum. Him coming out and blaming mykonian for the no lynch yesterday is dishonest, given that nobody knew the day was ending right that moment.

In any case, I don't see any scenario where mykonian is scum and TF is town, so I would lynch TF before myk almost no matter what. I think they are both town though and CooLDoG/Mortius are the scum.

VOTE: CooLDoG

[Kdub]

That misses the point (maybe intentionally?). He (and nobody else apparently) knew the deadline was happening right then instead of later in the day. AV even said that he thought it was several hours after when it actually came.

Do you really think myk has a better chance of being scum than TF? Explain that to me.

[Kdub]

I will not let a no lynch happen, but I don't think myk is scum.

AV, why is myk scum over CoolDog?

[Kdub]

We should massclaim. Vote for who to go first, then popcorn from there? I vote for CooLDog to start.

[Kdub]

My role PM is somewhat vague. It asks me what I think of Billy Holiday, and that if I PM an answer to the mod on D1, it may have an in-game effect. Partway through D1, I sent Empking sort of a joking PM that basically was along the lines of "I think Billy Holiday should tell me who the scum are". I didn't get a response and was not aware of any in-game change that occurred at that point.

I was informed last night that AV targeted me with his action, and that he is a town Mel Gibson (yes it specifically said town), so he is confirmed town to me. I didn't receive any sort of message other than being told this information, so I'm not sure what he's referring to there.

[Kdub]

My role PM makes no mention of "clueless".

[Kdub]

Anyway, we don't seem to have a good explanation of why there was no death last night, unless my D1 "action" had something to do with it. I also don't rule out the possibility of something intrinsic to the setup, given that it's an Empking game.

I'm pretty sure CooLDog is scum. He basically sat on mykonian all day yesterday based on myk "letting" a no lynch happen on D1, which was crap for the reasons I brought up already. I'm leaning toward CDB as his partner, but I'm not completely confident of that.

[Kdub]

I almost certainly will once everyone's gotten a chance to weigh in on the claims and we're ready to decide.

[Kdub]

The sample VT role PM seems to suggest that "clueless" = town ("clueless about who the scum are"). That seems like an insanely powerful ability in a game this size if true though, so maybe I'm not interpreting it right. AV, did you target anyone during N1? Maybe ask the mod for clarification?

[Kdub]

Reading this page, the one that looks more likely to be fabricated is Kdub's -

his description of the message received isn't quite the same as how Vox describes it being sent

and it strikes me as an easier claim to react to in a way that seems town than Vox's does to fake as scum.

Explain the bolded please. I described exactly the information I was given by the mod last night.

Also, providing any sort of comment on your reads based on your reading of the game would be useful.

[Kdub]

The mod PM specifically told me that AV targeted me. Presumably you believe AV is telling the truth and is town, and that I actually did receive a message because of his action. If I were scum, why would I add on that part if it wasn't a part of the message I actually got?

[Kdub]

I will ask the mod if I am "clueless" or not. The notion never occurred to me because my role PM didn't mention it.

AV, did you target someone N1?

[Kdub]

Well the mod says I don't know whether I'm clueless or not. So I'm clueless about whether I'm clueless...

[Kdub]

I think we can resolve this then. I know AV is town, so he must be telling the truth about his ability only working on clueless players. Since it worked on me, I must be clueless, even though the mod told me that I don't know that when I asked him.

AV, you said your role PM made no mention of "clueless" (same as me), so I assume that if you ask the mod whether you are clueless or not, he would respond the same way he responded to me. If he doesn't...well I'm going to need a good explanation from him in the endgame as to why he treated us differently. AV, please ask the mod. If he tells you that you don't know, that at least proves that the lack of mention of "clueless" in my role PM has no bearing on whether I actually am clueless or not, so there is no contradiction with your ability working on me. And it should strongly suggest that I am being honest here.

[Kdub]

^That means there is no conflict between our claims then. My role PM doesn't mention clueless, but it means I could still be clueless, which explains your ability working on me if that is indeed the case.

We have about 2 days. I've given my reasons why I am likely going to vote CooLDog. If he has anything to say in his defense, now would be the time.

[Kdub]

But since VTs are told they're clueless, I assume that we are not clueless.
Therefore our claims would conflict...

Did you ask the mod if you are clueless? I thought you did, which is why you said you didn't know...

Please ask the mod. He specifically told me that I don't know if I'm clueless. If he says the same to you, then there is no conflict.

[Kdub]

obviously power roles are NOT clueless. If kdub isn't clueless then he is scum if AV read his Role pm correctly.

^This is as good as proof that CoolDog is scum as soon as AV confirms with the mod regarding the clueless thing.

[Kdub]

No I don't have a role name, at least not that I can tell from my role PM. Like I said, it's a bit vague. I am going to ask the mod what I would flip as if I were to die.

The fact that the mod told you "don't know" means there is no contradiction. It means that if you don't have any mention of clueless in your role PM, then you could be either clueless or not clueless. The fact that VTs are told they are clueless is irrelevant. You are assuming that VTs being told means that anyone else not told that is automatically not clueless. While I get the reasoning behind that, the fact that the mod specifically answered "don't know" instead of just flat out saying "not clueless" means that cluelessness is a game mechanic that is not meant to be explicit to all players. Otherwise, he would have no reason to be vague about it.

Basically, for me to be scum, you have to assume that scum can be clueless (since I am clueless evidently, by the nature of your ability working on me). Furthermore, if you want to speculate that clueless = VT/goon, then you have to assume I am a goon, yet fakeclaimed a non-VT with an ability that has had no apparent effect and that isn't obviously provable (unless someone is witholding information). That's not impossible, but you have to admit it would be a pretty strange thing for scum to do.

Aside from that, there is no case on me other than what people are trying to push as a contradiction between our claims when in fact there is none. Everyone seems to suspect CooLDoG to varying degrees, and he has no defense other than to push for my lynch based on the claims.

[Kdub]

I didn't actually expect a positive response from the mod on my question, but I got one. I would flip as a "townie with a question" if I were to die.

[Kdub]

My thinking is that you faked non clueless to get around my fake claim of sending an additional message.

Why would I have assumed that cluelessness had any bearing on receiving a message or not? Remember, you didn't reveal that your ability only worked on clueless players until after I had claimed. And why would I assume that it would work only on clueless players and not the other way around? What if your ability had only worked on non-clueless players? There was no way for me to know that, so if I were scum, you're speculating that I lied when there was no obvious reason to.

I would not lynch anyone other than CooLDoG today given what we know unless there were no other option before the deadline. His play today just seals my opinion of him.

[Kdub]

I don't see a reason to wait any longer. CooLDoG clearly has nothing of substance to say, or else he would have said it by now.

VOTE: CooLDoG

[Kdub]

P sure I said it worked on clueless when I claimed.

Yeah you did, my mistake. I honestly didn't process that part before I claimed (since my role PM doesn't mention "clueless", I didn't think anything of it), but I'll concede the point. You're still basing my behavior on speculation over why I would/wouldn't claim clueless though.

I'll also point out that you claimed in 154 that you said you could send a message each night, then later in 180, you said it was one-shot. Since I have mod confirmation that you are town, this was obviously just an honest mistake on your part, but it also means that when I claimed, I had no way of knowing that you hadn't targeted someone on N1 or could target someone again tonight. Anything I lied about then, could be counterclaimed by whoever else you targeted.

Like I've said, there is no case on me aside from the claim, which still doesn't conflict with yours unless you squint and make some assumptions.

[Kdub]

Avox's claim proves kdub is town.

Awesome, why are you voting for town then?

24 hours to deadline BTW.

[Kdub]

What is the case on Toon Fighter?

P sure he meant scum there.

Yeah I know, I'm just getting on him because it shows how little CooLDoG is actually trying here. He's trying to push this apparent contradiction as a reason to vote me, when I have demonstrated that at the very least, it's ambiguous. He is not attempting to make a case based on anything else and hasn't remotely tried to scumhunt today. He has no response to people's suspicion of him. CooLDoG is scum.

[Kdub]

Basing a lylo vote on a gut RVS read isn't very reassuring . What is your opinion of CooLDoG?

I don't know what else to say about my claim. I've already explained why it's not a contradiction unless you assume something that isn't a given. We know that town can be either clueless or not clueless. We know that cluelessness is not something explicitly known to all players, even if it is for VTs. Your speculation about why I might have claimed what I did if I were scum is really kind of tortured. It's fine to question it and think of scenarios where I could be lying, but logically, there is no contradiction. That's not speculation, that's just objectively true given the evidence.

[Kdub]

That sucks.