Micro 75: Bureaucracy Mafia (Game Over)

[Aj The Epic]

Hello. It would seem that it is time to go find someone who is relatively suspicious. Is it like a tradition here to vote for random people on your way in? I can't say I know anyone well enough (other than Robert) to make any sort of educated guess.

I'm not much for a RVS or RQS, (actually, I am generally against both, but if days last weeks here, we mine as well at least give it a shot. (Days lasting weeks is inception-worthy). Everyone here is IC, I'm assuming?

I'm going to invest in my own tombstone now.

[Aj The Epic]

Lack of discussion to ongoing input is scummy.

[Aj The Epic]

It's like reverse philosophy that doesn't need to make sense.

[Aj The Epic]

Forcing random votes? Seems like someone has a hidden agenda! You've lost my vote for most discreet mafia ever...

Then again, I've already fulfilled the nonsensical content part. Have you? Because, unfortunately for you, I understand everything you've said so far. You're making sense, which is apparently bad, by your own standards.

Then again, that doesn't make sense to why you'd do such a thing, so you are no longer making sense. Congratulations?

[Aj The Epic]

Can I steal one from Maestro? I'd like a piece of paper.

[Aj The Epic]

Maestro, you aren't satisfied with me making posts that don't fit your own criteria? Or you just can't read it? It makes perfect sense from my end... Which then means I didn't fit your own criteria and that means I need to make something that makes no sense whatsoever to me or anyone else.

Drats. Foiled again.

I actually was leaning towards Maestro being scum on the basis he gave me an impossible task. I can't physically not make any sense, and any vote I make wouldn't be random, would it? Perhaps I vote for Jake from state farm, because I don't like the color red? It appears random, but isn't. It'd be apart of my scheme to take over the planet and banish the color red.

[Aj The Epic]

Look, why would I attempt to make you look scummy? The only reason you ever make someone look scummy is to get them lynched. Suggesting such is saying that you feel I'm setting you up, which I'm not. Unless you feel that my post was actually a practical attack on you, meant to make you look bad in front of everyone, which I doubt most people took it that way. Are you trying early to get townie points and feel that I blocked you? All these questions make me wonder if you didn't over react to a harmless post. Well, let me ask you, do you feel that you over-reacted to my post, or do you feel that my post justified said reaction.

I have you down as slightly over-reacting, but if you're ready to get serious and push forward, let's go.

@Shamrock, No what?

[Aj The Epic]

I'm responding what looks like an accusation of Scumminess. Nothing more. If you're not suspicious, say so. If you are, bloody say so. Don't beat around the bush with pointless posts discussing the "motive" I might've had for making Post X or Post Z on Day 1, Page 1. It's not helpful to the gamestate. That was/is my only point...

Do I look like a person to be direct? I use a rubix cube as my avatar, something that is almost impossible for most to solve and still difficult for me. I like to try to bat 1.000 with my accusations. While I could've said it was odd, I don't think that saying that you are suspicious yet would benefit anyone.

But, no. I felt it could've been suspicious HAD you over-reacted. But you didn't, so I'm fine.

Just a sidenote, if you read in the mafia discussion section, you'd have seen that before this game, I posted how I generally look for scum. It is all motive-based. Which is why I use so many circular arguments. I literally type what i think. Not that it gets people anywhere, other than myself.

And sorry for the headache. Unintentional.

Have to go run an errand. Be back in... 20, let's say.

[Aj The Epic]

My name is Aj, thanks.

While I do think Shamrock is very strange, this is primarily because he was almost openly encouraging a bandwagon. Is this common practice here? Generally speaking, bandwagons aren't a smart thing, you let someone else basically make arguments for you. It's a scum mechanic so that the leaders get people to follow them blindly or the scum can simply say "ditto" and cast a vote. Stupidly suspicious to me, but I'm not sure if this is common for the site.

Town does not hope for OVERreaction. They hope for reaction. The fact that Shamrock said "overreaction" implies he thought the

cube guy would go ballistic or something, which implies he really has CERTITUDE of his towniness: the only way ballistics happens

usually is when someone votes someone for a reason that's not holding water.

I agree. But I also think that people may overreact simply because they overreact, and it's just something they do. I mean, the whole objective of playing scum is to make yourself look town, so you aren't simply going to have two completely different reactions based on alliance if you can help it. Therefore, if someone overreacts, for the sake of sameness as scum, they'd probably overreact, and vice versa.

[Aj The Epic]

Eventually, I see if a well thought out argument is brought up on someone who has been acting strange, and the town moves as a group to lynch said person, I understand that, but only if more than a couple can repeat the points or expand on the initial argument. I feel that if one solid argument is made, even if others re-iterate the point, it's bandwagoning.

I've never used the term 'sheeping'. I just figured anything less than what I described as a bandwagon was also a bandwagon, so by your definition, your conclusion that he is 'sheeping' is correct. Still not a very good positive mark for him.

As for my argument, it's just what I notice. Sure, people react. But they will try more or less to react the same way. Find motives for reaction, or figure why they react. That's why I had originally asked you the questions. I wanted to find your motive without assuming anything on page three.

[Aj The Epic]

Yeah, I generally place my vote towards the middle of the day. If someone is scummy enough, I don't feel the need to have multiple initial votes so I can hammer them off or motivate a lynch. BW is just asking for mafia to present case and lynch. You wouldn't hang a vote in LyLo so easily, so why hang them now? They represent the same amount of authority that they do in the stages before endgame.

I was reading through one of the games currently going on and they are throwing votes like crazy. It'd make me wonder what was happening and also make me lose track of who is testing who. By voting less, you almost keep the water cleaner, and patterns are easier to see. That way, you don't have to say "Well, X trended voting for Y on day __, who turned ___, so be situation, X is ___" when in fact X has voted for every person on the list.

[Aj The Epic]

Njoseph hasn't overstepped and played in any such way that would indicate scum. His "Wall of text" post was actually relatively short and the second post in the second part of this game (From the less serious aspect to now the more serious). While I don't necessarily agree with everything he stated, he did put his input. There isn't much to say, for he hasn't presented himself multiple times yet. If anything, I would say his post was a safe post to make, one that wouldn't get him any backlash because it's his logic in a psychological context, which is open for the individual to interpret how he views actions.

He did bring up a good point: Me giving you a headache really doesn't prove anything. Certainly not my for sure innocence.

[Aj The Epic]

Was rather unhelpful. At the same time, PM, if there was anything important to us right now, he would've said anything. It's almost like you're fishing to see if he learned anything.

[Aj The Epic]

Is Jake always standoffish and unhelpful or is this a new trend? In such a scenario elsewhere, I'd vote to lynch him. If you don't want to tell someone, you say so. But to post so few words is to leave to question why you haven't decided to involve yourself more.

And I will hopefully be asleep 6-7 hours from now. Personally.

[Aj The Epic]

You know what? I'd normally vote for him given his lack of input and current action, he currently is in no position to be lynched, so why not?

VOTE: Jake from State Farm[\vote]

[Aj The Epic]

Damn. I'm using the wrong codes. VOTE: Jake From State Farm

[Aj The Epic]

Part of the game is to find a way to be helpful. It makes it easier for everyone else to find scum.

It also occurred to me that you could've gained some other power with the collection of the paper. Were you town, this power could seem relatively important. So, in that case, I wouldn't fish. But there are better ways, again, to convey your needs/feelings/thoughts than saying "stuff".

[Aj The Epic]

Jake, your logic is very shaky. First off, you basically just said to everyone that you got something important that scum shouldn't know. Well, by that, you just told everyone that you either just learned a power role of someone or you just gained one yourself. Nice job putting a target on yourself...

Secondly, if you feel that people are pressuring you too much, it's because you aren't responding well to pressure. Not responding well to pressure is something that tends to be more of a scum tendency. Scum can't always have an honest answer, so pressure makes them crack.

I personally think you're lying. I think you're trying to use this paper to prove yourself pro-town, and failing. Remember, scum could've gotten their hands on it, as well. Coincidentally, your first post was to grab one of the pieces for yourself. I find it strange that you couldn't post until you had the opportunity to get the paper at exactly the prescribed point.

[Aj The Epic]

What's the big deal? Maestro and Jake both picked up papers and we don't know what they are? Are they both scum? If not, then let's pretend the paper-picking did not happen and scum hunt.

Nice of you to come in and try to make everyone completely disregard Jake's actions.

[Aj The Epic]

Why so hard on Jake. He's only looking worse because he's on the defense, which is because he's being the only one criticized for this

I've got an issue with his posts. I'm not so much concerned with the paper, as expressed before. He could've just stated that it was not for us to know, and then contributed to the conversation. Instead, he opted to be a minimalist. For which I have all rights to call him on. And for which, he deserves no defense.

I don't have an issue with him being put at L-1, to be honest. If someone hammers early, a stupid move it'd be and be re-paid in due time.

I also find it comical you state that you can scum hunt by yourself. Pray tell your record as town. And then tell me how many you lead by yourself to victory and how people are just begging to nominate you for "Best pro-town" scummy. If insufficient, join the group and work with us.

If you choose not to work with the scum, you mine as well prepare a parting post.

And Njoeseph, he's had his chances to contribute. Mafia players know to contribute all the time, not just when they feel like it. If he has feelings on scum, he might just end up taking them to his grave if the mafia felt the need to get rid of him. So why he can't share that is beyond me. I don't need to know what the paper said, but there were much better ways to go about it, besides being a smartass when PM asked.

And lastly, I didn't take one because Maestro had asked for it. I asked if I could have it before taking it and he preferred to have it himself.

[Aj The Epic]

Why so defensive of Jake? No, his comment was. When told to "Say Something" and all you say is "Something", the qualification for being a smartass post is met. I am by no means calling him such. But why make a point of that out of my whole post?

[Aj The Epic]

So then he can justify himself working independently from the town if he has no reads? Sounds like "I don't have anything, but you should let me do my own thing and probably just let me be". Yeah, I think I'm getting more and more comfortable with my vote as this day goes on.

One thing I have to ask you, Njoesph, where will you stand when, if he's lynched, it's time to reveal his affiliation? Will you say that you were earnestly defending him or that you were simply providing a counterargument?

[Aj The Epic]

Can we have Breakfast prodded? I swear I saw him browsing the thread earlier. I don't think he's posted yet.

[Aj The Epic]

No, I don't think you've been productive at that if you're trying. Are you trying to?

[Aj The Epic]

Why join him on the team of "this is a good question"? It's not. The question-asker tries to make me look bad before a flip by saying was it extreme defense or something I would try to pass off as a counterargument in good sport.

So, now, though, you seem to be suggesting you know he'll flip scum. You'd look bad if you were wrong, correct? Not so much if he was town... So why the assertion that you are wrong? Or is this some Freudian slip?

[Aj The Epic]

Well, I am fairly confident he will, but am in no way able to be certain. My question was honest. I am interested to know your motives to defend him.

[Aj The Epic]

Rob has been in plenty of games. Your terminology is just different from what we use. We'd basically mention that someone would hammer you next vote, but that doesn't really matter. It'd be better if it wasn't said. Mafia skim more often than town. If you aren't mafia and they wanted to hammer you out, they would, and then your death would be means to an end to find someone who didn't have the subtle ability to read all the posts. While it isn't a for-sure method, it is one of the ways you can find scum.

Now, people always say "Well, town can skim, as well". Not if they want to be helpful, they don't.

Breakfast, first off, it is nice of you to join us. Secondly:

He didn't say that, he said "if he is scum it's better if he doesn't know the answer", which makes perfect sense. You are role fishing way too hard.

What he said does not mean what he let everyone know. By Jake saying "If he (maestro) is scum, it is better off he doesn't know", we can reduce our options. So, let's talk about the possibilities of what are on that paper.

1. Mafia role(s)
2. Mafia name(s) (member of... obviously not, that'd be overpowered and too easy)
3. Town role(s) (perhaps associated with a name, most likely not...)
4. Town name(s) (people who are town)
5. A gifted power role.

Now, he said it's better he doesn't know if he is scum. Basically, it is better the scum doesn't know, since we don't know WHO is scum. Now, which of the following would be advantageous to the mafia to know? Not 1, 2, or 4. They know all of that already, bar a third party member. 3 and 5 are the only things beneficial to the mafia to know. And, from Maestro, we know it's almost an inventor ability if it can be given. So yes, Jake did give it away. I didn't need to role fish at all.

Had he worded it "The information is best kept to myself until a later time", the answer would've been more widely accepted, and now 4 options remain viable, seeing as we know Empking would not give out mafia names on the 26th post on a piece of paper.

[Aj The Epic]

I believe all of those options are incredibly BS for this level of a game. And I wasn't fishing. Fishing is when you try to get someone to claim their roles. I have no need to know his role, and, as I said, he already told me what that paper said. You want to know none of your options work? Because he can give that paper to someone else.

[Aj The Epic]

Did you ever read what I've been writing? You didn't have to. Your actions revealed it. Any half-coherent player could see that.

[Aj The Epic]

No, I don't know what you received. But that doesn't prevent me from understanding it's basis. And if you're trying to play WIFOM, try elsewhere. I've played too many games to get tripped up by such a beginner's tactic. And no, you weren't thinking of playing WIFOM at the time, so stop trying to make me doubt what I know. It's stupid, and town shouldn't want to make other towns doubt facts. You gained a role. You can pass that role on.

Now, since this has been solved. I believe there were other questions for you to answer, such as reads. I have some, you have some. Everyone has some. Don't say you don't, because it's a lie. It is impossible not to formulate an opinion, and thus that opinion can be a read. Who, what when and why? This is basic, but key to getting the town going.

[Aj The Epic]

He was the one to come out and try to disprove my own logic. He wants me to believe that such is not true. Why would I want to believe such is not true if he is already trying to tell me such. If he lets the subject drop, would it make me any more knowledgeable? No. Without any prompting in post 166, he tried to make me disbelieve what I know. Therefore, my comment in 167 was a response to his own attempt, not a fish. For his gambit of a (half formed) WIFOM is to make me believe something else. Unfortunately, I do not believe that it is anything else, so his gambit cannot possibly work.

I just want to point this out: You keep saying I'm fishing. That's a strong accusation and I've been addressing it in turn. But, please check to make sure it's actual fishing. Fishing is considered an offense only scum would do. Now, you do have your vote on me, which means you at least are willing to show that you want to put some weight behind your words, but I see these accusations as still baseless. If I provoked him to try to change a response with that comment, maybe I in that context you could see me as fishing. But unfortunately, he gave the action you suggested I was looking for before I said the post. Unless I am somehow writing his responses over after I write my own, I fail to see how this is possible.

[Aj The Epic]

I would assume you are talking about Maestro asking how he was bullying you?

[Aj The Epic]

Don't do anything that will get you mod (or scum) killed.

[Aj The Epic]

I can't imagine this one sheet of paper being able to claim Maverick is mafia. Let's be honest, if it meant he was mafia, it'd be way too easy for the town. If he is mafia, it probably would be revealed in many papers. My idea is that the papers were basically assigned to a random person to have an even chance of showing up with anyone, as to not make it unfair to any one person.

[Aj The Epic]

also had a thought last night, before maestro spilled the beans on his paper, you seemed to think my paper either gave me the name of a PR or gave me a PR myself. But when I look at the reasons why you think I am scum (all of which are null tells and not true scum tells) and compare them to the possibility that you thought I had a PR, trying to lynch me and have that ability gone out of rotation doesn't seem very town motivated to me.

vote: AJ

Oh, so now you want to attack me on the grounds that gaining a power role would clear you as town? I highly doubt that. Anyone could grab the paper, therefore meaning town and scum, and anyone could then gain the advantage of what was on the paper. So, you having a paper doesn't make you any more town than me not having it. Again, a flaky argument.

What's strange is that you say this so late. Wouldn't a town person point it out immediately and say "Hey, if you think I have a power role, then I probably shouldn't be lynched since I'm town" earlier? Yeah. The fact that this thought occurred to you last night, self admittedly, means that you had to put a lot of thought into this.

[Aj The Epic]

no, I want to attack you because you don't care about the papers and you want them out of circulation. That isn't town motivated.

This is complete crap. I haven't said anything about wanting the papers out of circulation. I can't even find where I've said anything remotely close to "Burn the papers" or something that would suggest my want for them to be removed. Stop lying.

the fact that I had this thought last night, was due to the fact that last night you repeated yourself and again mentioned that you thought the papers contained that information. There was so much going on the first time you posted it I didn't really catch it.

The fact that I thought of this last night also has no bearing on how much or how little thought I put into it, like that is even relevant anyway. Even if i had put lots of thought into it, it doesn't make it any less true

Fine, acceptable answer.

When you voted me earlier, you originally hesitated before you voted me. - Town should have no reason to hesitate, especially when you changed your mind an hour later with nobody else adding to the conversation.

also when you voted me you said I was in no place to be lynched - this shows cautious behavior. - Town should not have to worry about being cautious.
reason to hesitate, especially when you changed your mind an hour later with nobody else adding to the conversation.also when you voted me you said I was in no place to be lynched - this shows cautious behavior. - Town should not have to worry about being cautious.

Then we differ here. I already mentioned that I like to be very accurate with my accusations. My caution was that I was more suspicious about Sham's vote and "sheeping" than I was about your actions. But, I decided to vote eventually because I figured I could

A. Be attentive enough to pull back should the lynch go to quickly
and B. Perhaps draw you out to make you post more.

Over time, I felt my vote was more and more justified because of how shelled up you were. This complete lack of input for roughly 3 pages was encouraging that I felt I found someone who literally had no capabilities to function as scum under pressure. In fact, it took until Breakfast started posting in earnest for you to even start posting what I felt was real contributions to begin with.

Caution is part of my play style, just as well as being uncooperative the early part of the day seems to be part of yours. I'd say that being completely unhelpful and standoffish is scummy, probably more so than my supposed caution. You suggest that I am cautious to worry about my image. No, I'm cautious because I'm not going to make myself look like a fool and blindly step onto a bandwagon.

post 96 - this is where you say you won't fish for information but then you go and fish for information. town should not be fishing.

I spent a great deal of posts explaining my logic on why I felt I was not fishing, and that was because I probably would've bet my college savings on what I thought you had on that paper. Of course, it's a good thing I don't gamble. But, the new development does beg one question: Why weren't you more helpful? If you neither understand any of it, nor does Maestro (as for what he's said at least), would it not be more helpful to bring to a head in front of the town, or at least ask what a certain symbol is, just off hand, to see if anyone knew?

post 130 - this is the post where you say if I was to be hammered early it would be stupid and would be re-paid in time - This is grandstanding and is unneccessary if you are town. In fact most of your posts where you talk about how a town person should play are examples of grandstanding. Like your way is somehow the only way a person can play and if they don't play by your rules this must mean they are scum. lolif I was to be hammered early it would be stupid and would be re-paid in time - This is grandstanding and is unneccessary if you are town. In fact most of your posts where you talk about how a town person should play are examples of grandstanding. Like your way is somehow the only way a person can play and if they don't play by your rules this must mean they are scum. lol

Firstly, Scum to town ration is generally 1:3, 1:4. Sacrificing a town member to find a scum member is actually a fairly proficient trade if you can manage such. Secondly, you'd need a damned good reason to come in and hammer when days are weeks long, or you'd have a tough time explaining yourself later. Thirdly, through two posts, you proved to be VERY self conscious of the amount of votes on you, first denoting that Robert didn't mention you were at L-1, and second telling the mod that Maestro had in fact unvoted for you. Now, while the second was an honest mistake and I'm not sure what you'd justify the first as, there really isn't (or shouldn't) be any reason to worry. In fact, you probably could've contacted the mod in private and then ploy to see if anyone WAS going to bite and "hammer". Wouldn't that be an interesting take? All I felt was that you were extremely self conscious about the amount of votes on you. You seemed to adhere to the amount of votes more than the reason to which they were placed.

But wouldn't there have to be relatively sizeable amount of scum for #6 to be reasonable?

Or a very low amount. Switch could go either way. Which WOULD be reason to hold close, but that's not happening in this game, I feel.

this post pings hard.

VOTE: breakfast

Why?

I think it was because of how unlikely any of the options were and the fact that they were put out simply to try and trip up my logic again. (Unfortunately, it wasn't necessary)

And the parentheses represent exactly why I hate to be wrong.

[Aj The Epic]

You suggest that I am cautious to worry about my

town

image. No, I'm cautious because I'm not going to make myself look like a fool and blindly step onto a bandwagon.

Corrected (bold word) because I think that I failed to differentiate between the two originally.

[Aj The Epic]

actions speak louder than words. I never said you actually said you want them gone, but your actions prove you do.

So, by voting for you, I, in turn, want the papers gone. Sure... Why, then, have I not worked to get rid of Maestro's in any way, shape or form?

This is complete crap. I haven't said anything about wanting the papers out of circulation. I can't even find where I've said anything remotely close to "Burn the papers" or something that would suggest my want for them to be removed. Stop lying.

actions speak louder than words. I never said you actually said you want them gone, but your actions prove you do.

But, the new development does beg one question: Why weren't you more helpful? If you neither understand any of it, nor does Maestro (as for what he's said at least), would it not be more helpful to bring to a head in front of the town, or at least ask what a certain symbol is, just off hand, to see if anyone knew?

I thought you knew how this wifom game works... anyway I answer this question at the beginning of 188. I have not said if I can read the paper or not, nor will I say if I can read it or not. This isn't something that can be brought out in the open for discusssion, because the people who can read this are not normal Bureaucrats, the people who can read the symbols have more power than a typical Bureaucrat. Bringing this out in the open for discussion helps scum not town because as soon as someone says they have the ability to read it, they immediately put a target on their head. (If you are town i don't think you really know how to play this game)

Thirdly, through two posts, you proved to be VERY self conscious of the amount of votes on you, first denoting that Robert didn't mention you were at L-1, and second telling the mod that Maestro had in fact unvoted for you. Now, while the second was an honest mistake and I'm not sure what you'd justify the first as, there really isn't (or shouldn't) be any reason to worry. In fact, you probably could've contacted the mod in private and then ploy to see if anyone WAS going to bite and "hammer". Wouldn't that be an interesting take? All I felt was that you were extremely self conscious about the amount of votes on you.

firstly none of this is even remotely accurate, but for the sake of the point I am about to make, let's assume it is.

me being self conscious about how many votes I have on me is completely different than you being self conscious about how others perceive you. Scum have to appear that they aren't scummy, they need people to think they are town. Regardless of alignment though, anyone who is being run up for a lynch cares about the number of votes on them.

secondly - proper etiquette is to announce when you are putting a player at L-1, some people actually think that if you don't that is indiciative of scum hoping some townie will accidentially hammer you (happens all the time on this site) In addition, I am completely ok with being lynched but that doesn't mean I want to be, especially with me holding a paper.

as for the vote count being wrong this is also standard proticol, not just on this site but every site I have ever played on. If a mod makes an error, you let him know. I have never sent a mod a PM asking him to fix a vote count. This is yet another thing you would learn if you had started in a newbie game (which is obvious where you should be playing in my opinion.)


p.edit - see, adding in the word town was completely unnecessary. "You suggest that I am cautious to worry about my image" was perfectly acceptable and flowed properly in your sentence. "You suggest that I am cautious to worry about my town image" is completely un-neccessary and caused the flow of that sentence to sound off.

So, for part one of this: I think that's two different things, as well. Unfortunately, the comparison I drew was between you being uncooperative as part of your early game play style and me being cautious. Your vote consciousness is a different point to these two altogether.

Secondly, to the point neither of us have played here. Yes, there are small differences, but I seem to feel that I am doing quite fine adapting. If that's what you people feel is necessary, fine. I generally play with a group that is very good and won't make any mistake whatsoever. Your offhand comment about me playing a newbie game first is slightly off... I play it solely for people to have other games to look at if they feel the need to see how I play.

To the vote counting, I send private messages to mods all the time if I feel something needs to be corrected. It's 'proper etiquette' to not publicly announce a mistake on the thread.

This is yet another thing you would learn if you had started in a newbie game (which is obvious where you should be playing in my opinion.)

Opinions are like assholes. We all have them and most of them smell. I'd prefer if you'd keep that one to yourself.

[Aj The Epic]

oh good grief can you 2 plz shut up this dumb argument so we can get on with the game.

take a look around you. the both of you. what is standing out?

What stands out is the fact that other than either of us arguing, the amount of words posted in this thread would be very low. You could argue that they are hiding now, but has anyone really attempted to shift to any other topic with any other well thought out argument? Scum can hide just as well in a game where no discussion goes whatsoever.

I don't believe that Jake and I are done arguing, but if you wish to shift the topic, I will listen, respond and whatnot. I can reasonable beg to differ some other time.

To me, this would generally be on the side of a productive day one, more so than not. Day one and we've already got reasonable and substantial posts from almost everyone, and I feel that this can be attributed to actual content and not spam.

Goody, an alt-slip. Brb, checking meta for NJ/Taz.

In the meantime, pirate, I don't really think your vote is justified given the level of explanation you gave.
@Shamrock/Jake: your votes are good. I want your thoughts: AJ/Robert Scumteam possible or no?

P-Edit @Shamrock: ^ Read above.
I think the whole team is definitely in [Robert2424, Aj The Epic, Breakfast,

one other person

]

So, in the hope that we get off to another topic:

If you wish to accuse me as such, reasoning very important. First off, for Robert having posted... 3 times? That's rather hard to see how you could find any connection to me in this game. As stated before, he is one of my acquaintances from the other site I'm on. And thus, having joined a day apart, we've both just started here and are about the same amount into a new environment. This is all forces that are at work outside the game.

Plus, you calling me scum in the first place would require some reasoning. I doubt I'll get any, but I'm always willing to hear what you feel makes me scum.

[Aj The Epic]

This was the first time you dropped Breakfast's name, and it's as a scum at the end of the list. The previous post that you made that had something to do with Breakfast (and I believe the very first one that had anything to do with her) was to ask why pirate mollie, who voted for Breakfast, was pinged by Breakfast. Hmm...

I chuckled over this logic. Well, at least the "It's scum to be at the end of the list" part (or was that actually a solid reason that occurs often here?)

UNVOTE: Jake From State Farm If I'm not going to be addressing you and debating, I don't feel it fair to continue holding a vote over your head for right now.

We probably won't hear much from Breakfast until about 6 am. [badjoke] We're not even past supper[/badjoke]

I am biased on this point of view, since I definitely did not appreciate what Breakfast was doing, but I'm going to go re-read it now... This way, at least I can view it as something different than an extra argument I had to deal with.

[Aj The Epic]

Does anybody think Breakfast has exhibited examples of town-tells?

Not really. To be honest, I feel that she was trying to slander me with "role fishing" which I had to then defend against for basically the rest of all of yesterday, instead of what I wanted to be doing, which was discussing (okay, arguing...) with Jake. It was inconvenient to me, and I feel that it was dishonest, looking back at it. Again, as said previously, I may not be the most unbiased source ever for this.

She is, however, at 3 votes... so I'm guessing I'm not the only one.

I also think that between her, Rob, and Maverick_Alpha, we could use more posts, or more consistency in amounts of posts.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm late. I had a college English exam yesterday (so, roughly 26 hours ago) that deprived all of my sleep, so I overslept today hardcore. Breakfast honestly should've posted by now, the usual post was right around M_A's time of posting, if not a little earlier.

Will probably double post here. Just seeing if by chance M_A is still up.

[Aj The Epic]

On looking back, the only thing that stands out recently (going from the point in which Jake and I stopped arguing) is Njoseph's question if anyone thought Breakfast was pro-town. It's kind of an odd point, but it didn't feel right as a question. Granted, I believe he voted for Breakfast at the top of the page and asked the question at the bottom.

Also an odd piece of Nj's posts was that both scum teams he's come up with have included Shamrock, yet both times he's voted for the partner of Shamrock. Is this just because you (Nj) think that the partners have been more scummy and Shamrock is just there? Or do you plan on lynching Shamrock tomorrow regardless of the turn of his partner?

While I think that Breakfast has been more scummy than Shamrock, I probably wouldn't have considered Sham as a major player for the scum team yet. And if I felt that he was almost certainly a piece (Certain enough that both theories include him), I would vote for him first to validate my line of thought.

[Aj The Epic]

Might aw well point out that I never voted for Rob

Exactly. Did you read the post? I was wondering why you hadn't picked Shamrock because of your assumptions.

Also an odd piece of Nj's posts was that both scum teams he's come up with have included Shamrock, yet both times he's voted for the partner of Shamrock. Is this just because you (Nj) think that the partners have been more scummy and Shamrock is just there? Or do you plan on lynching Shamrock tomorrow regardless of the turn of his partner?

[Aj The Epic]

From what I've read in other games here, you guys don't like to have people at L-1, correct? I've read this a few times where it seems that L-2 is as close as the lynch will get until they are determined to lynch, correct?

Also, we're slowly sputtering out of discussion. How long does everyone plan on keeping day one going? I've never played a day longer than a week, so a 2 week day one seems a little long. Eventually, we're just going to lose all of our ideas.

[Aj The Epic]

I wish we could get off the subject of page 3. Jake and I ended it earlier. Robert, end it. It's counterproductive to the town at this point.

[Aj The Epic]

AJ, these are all examples of what I think is fishing: saying that you know what the paper is, in order to trick him into revealing more by his reaction. That's what I think you were doing. If not, what is the town motivation for you articulating that argument? All you are doing is explaining what you figured out to the scum, in case they hadn't caught on yet.

You kept forcing the issue, so I kept trying to explain myself to you. Had you dropped it and accepted that I honestly did not believe I was fishing, I wouldn't have had need to say that. What is the town motivation of tunneling me, then, to force me to continuously re-articulate my position? You already decided to just label me as role fishing and wouldn't come down off your high horse to see it from my perspective. Therefore, you've only tried to work and advance your own position on getting me lynched.

Even after you've had votes and questions placed for you between the more than 48 hours since you last posted, you go right for me all over again, ignoring a lot of questions and arguments posed by those who actually have voted for you. So, even after Njoseph pointed out in post 125 that you were tunneling, you couldn't resist and did so again. Maybe your argument would be more relevant if it wasn't 100 posts later.

The biggest issue I have with AJ is his reaction to the idea the papers contain both scum members. He argued that it makes the game too easy. It's very similar to how I was thinking in micro 33 when I realizes there were 3 town power roles. I had to play up that 3 PRs would make the game too town sided so one has to be a fake. 's very similar to how I was thinking in micro 33 when I realizes there were 3 town power roles. I had to play up that 3 PRs would make the game too town sided so one has to be a fake.

You're suggesting I'd play scum the same way you would. I doubt that, seeing as we haven't seen eye-to-eye any other part of this game. I pointed out something I thought fairly obvious. Maestro voted for m_a for the sole reason that he was on Maestro's paper. I think that's bad logic.

The Breakfast wagon is bad IMO because he is calling out AJ for things AJ is ACTUALLY doing. What was the town motivation behind saying "you must have got a town pr or the name of one and now you have put a target on your back, but I don't beleive you so I'll keep my vote on you"

He forced the issue, making me have to explain myself. Which, in turn, caused me to show my logic behind my assumption. If anything, he spurred it because he chose to make an argument multiple times. Because the role fish would be considered WIFOM, from that point on, anything I said was going to be taken as WIFOM, when in fact, I had no intention of making it such. Were I scum, I'd probably just take you out tonight regardless of what the paper said. That's why the position I was in was bad. I had no intention of it, but had I let the subject drop, people would've taken my silence as acceptance to the truth. In my position, Jake, what would you have said? I'm not role fishing? Well, that's not sufficient evidence.

AJ lynch is the only option today IMO. His earlier attempts at white knighting by talking about how town should act doesn't help him either. The fact he felt the need to add in the word "town" when referring to his image, is yet another example of sonething that a rational townie would not do.

The reason I added town was because the second half of my sentence said "I don't want to look like a fool and step onto a bandwagon". Had I not added town, the sentence read:

You suggest that I am cautious to worry about my

image

. No, I'm cautious because I'm not going to make myself

look

like a fool and blindly step onto a bandwagon.

This seemed hypocritical because of the bold words, because they honestly did contradict themselves. I therefore felt the need to add 'town' because you had suggested that was specifically what I was worried about. Had I not corrected myself, it would've been hypocritical. It was a correction solely for me, such that I wouldn't have made a hypocritical comment.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm willing to test that...

Do you have any formalities with hammering? Have any need to carry on the day. I'm obviously not fond of Breakfast's opinion at all so far. But, I'm prepared to wait. If someone would explain the hammering rituals you have here, that would be appreciated. We generally just throw hammers out.

[Aj The Epic]

And people accuse ME of role fishing... I honestly think that's the stupidest question you can ask at this point.

[Aj The Epic]

Either way, you're kind of playing a WIFOM role fish. I'd personally drop it, to be honest. Any way you respond to such a thought can really get you in trouble during night phases.

[Aj The Epic]

I was asking when the time came. I think this day is dying. Momentum carries and I'd rather carry conversation into the next day, rather than silence.

[Aj The Epic]

To just settle on someone without any effort is scummy. Who's your top scum read? Why is he scum?

Should Breakfast post more, I'd have time to make a case with or against him. Who's the most scummy to me... It's been a long time since I've gone and categorized people by 'most' scummy. Looking at groups are generally what I do. Earlier, my first read was Sham/Maestro. Later, you and Nj/Breakfast. I'm currently thinking that Mav/Sham could work, or Robert and Nj (he did even admit to not having voted for Robert when I asked about his voting patterns between you, Breakfast/Robert scum team). But Breakfast has tunneled like crazy, so it's hard to see where he stands, other than against me. I don't like the single-mindedness. Individually, he's probably the most scummy, followed by Robert. They could be a team, neither has made much effort to lynch off the other.

[Aj The Epic]

P_M, my vote would've been a hammer for Breakfast. As can be seen, no one wanted a hammer. If you want me to place a vote on my 'second' most scummy, I'd probably have my vote on Nj, but that's not who I feel needs to be lynched.

Since, of course, we have space on the BW for Breakfast, I'll vote to keep it at L-1, but I was asked not to hammer, and thus I didn't.

VOTE: Breakfast

[Aj The Epic]

Isn't Breakfast a male? Why do we keep calling him a her?

Also, P_M, if you read the thread, I asked about what needed to be done before hammering. I was never planning to quick hammer Breakfast. And I also doubt that we'll end up with a claim...

[Aj The Epic]

My orange icons don't seem to love me much. After much review, it seems that there's a group of us who wants to change a whole lynch before the 22nd. I will be inactive the 22nd and mostly inactive the 23rd, but that won't matter, as it should be night phase by then.

Sham's post is very self-explanatory on Robert's post, there is no arguing that. But, Breakfast cannot quit with the tunneling. I honestly am at a loss for how he manages to justify this literally 10 pages (which equates to over 250 posts! And roughly 5 days, at least) after the fact. We've beaten that point to death, and yet he tries to draw it against me again. If he hasn't managed anything other than that really, I'm feeling very safe with my vote.

[Aj The Epic]

except that you are cross tunneling and not weighing in on a possible robert lynch what is up with that. weighing in as in if you think shamrock made a good case then you should be voting for robert right now instead of obsessing about his vote on you.

Except that even if I voted for Robert, it is obviously apparent he wouldn't be lynched today, as M_A seems to have a higher priority on the town's lynch off...

[Aj The Epic]

In post 324, Jake from State Farm wrote:To just settle on someone without any effort is scummy. Who's your top scum read? Why is he scum?




Should Breakfast post more, I'd have time to make a case with or against him. Who's the most scummy to me... It's been a long time since I've gone and categorized people by 'most' scummy. Looking at groups are generally what I do. Earlier, my first read was Sham/Maestro. Later, you and Nj/Breakfast. I'm currently thinking that Mav/Sham could work, or Robert and Nj (he did even admit to not having voted for Robert when I asked about his voting patterns between you, Breakfast/Robert scum team). But Breakfast has tunneled like crazy, so it's hard to see where he stands, other than against me. I don't like the single-mindedness. Individually, he's probably the most scummy, followed by Robert. They could be a team, neither has made much effort to lynch off the other.

I've already posted my feelings on that, they have not changed. I feel Breakfast is the most scummy. If you read my post, I also said that Sham's case was convincing, but I still felt Breakfast was worse. Though Jake still thinks that was fishing, I still don't see my posts as such. Thus, I'm convinced Breakfast is scum because he has still lacked the ability to find anything else.

[Aj The Epic]

I, as previously mentioned, will be inactive tomorrow. Happy Thanksgiving, all.

Anyways, it seems that not much has changed recently. Breakfast lurking isn't new. The wagon isn't new. Robert lurking isn't new, either. Unfortunately, I think we've settled into a bit of a lull just waiting for the last vote of lynch to come out on Breakfast. I don't think we'll get much more discussion today.

[Aj The Epic]

If the scum wanted the paper gone, it's because the paper verified something. Really, Jake hinted at who was on his paper only once. So the scum must've had a fairly good grip on who Jake was referring to. I believed Jake said his player was 'incompetent at playing mafia". I would prefer not to voice my guess.

Njoseph, why are you asking to consider the NK? If it were me, I'd simply voice my opinion on why Jake died. I think the paper had something to do with it. But I'm guessing that it's more than that.

[Aj The Epic]

Well, NKs are generally to push the game in favor of the mafia fraction, no matter how they decide to use it. WIFOM is simply part of the deal with NKs. While the paper makes a real easy excuse, the chance was there that Jake could give it away. I doubt he did, he was completely paranoid in my eyes. Another reason Jake could die is the fact that he wasn't being pressured much towards the end of the day, and was basically correct in his assumption that Breakfast was town. If the mafia felt that Breakfast's death WK'd Jake, that'd be a reason to eliminate a more-secure town player. Of course, the option that Jake was actually targeting a mafia player is there but there also is the chance of a WIFOM play there.

My personal guess is the WK'd of Breakfast. I had him marked as most-likely town. Was really the only one, going into the night phase.

[Aj The Epic]

hey aj where did you say that you had jake marked as most-likely town cos I do not remember that happening at all.

I didn't say so. After he was correct about Breakfast, I figured he was probably pro-town. It would've been a lot easier for him to have just helped lynch Breakfast than to let Breakfast live, even if Breakfast thought he was pro-town. This opinion was developed when we went into night phase after Breakfast was lynched.

Njoseph, after yesterday, I believe you will need more than that to start a bandwagon on someone. That was a terrible argument on someone who you could develop a very easy argument against. Why the half-effort?

[Aj The Epic]

seriously liking where shamrock's head is at.

I agree. The reasoning against M_A is still rather weak, and to try to dictate a lynch off of that is pretty bad. Also, keeping the paper isn't really a good move... Now, he can really use the paper as a certain defense against being lynched, because he's the only one that knows the apparent symbol that shows up. Would be interesting if Maestro was scum and killed off Jake so that he was the only one with any sort of information.

[Aj The Epic]

Always helpful to have good first posts from lurkers.

7 left, 4 to lynch? Just a check, since M_A is probably at l-2 right now.

Anyways, I'm not big on this "Name on card, must be scum" or even "name on card, lynch to check scum" logic. I think Maestro may just be looking for a lynch to get him through the day. He played quietly and without much important said yesterday, and now he's playing pretty hard for an M_A lynch. I think we may end up being duped.

VOTE: Maestro

You have two small reasons to lynch M_A. Lurking, and the fact that he's on the paper. You couldn't even bring yourself to call him scummy. And let me remind you, we just lynched a lurker, pro-town. So that excuse about lurking scum? Not going to work, buddy. I don't want to be goaded into voting someone solely on activity when you've changed up your style so much today. What's with the more aggressive and forced attack on M_A today, and the passive attempt to have a 'intent to hammer' only hours before the deadline, when you knew Breakfast wouldn't respond fast enough? Mind explaining why I'm seeing such a different side of you today?

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: Maestro

Can you explain. What's your own reasoning for voting? I want to hear, even if it's only for my own good feelings about my vote. Your vote seemed kind of reasonless, unless you were using my reasoning (which, fyi, wasn't for sale)

[Aj The Epic]

I don't think Emp will "probe" M_A (lol). He posted about 24-36 hours ago, and relatively speaking, that is generally less time in between what breakfast was posting at.

[Aj The Epic]

I don't know, hence why I asked him.

P_M, what push? I'm not pushing for a lynch on Maestro, I think he's scummy. We've got a lot of time (to the best of my knowledge) so there is no need to force a lynch.

[Aj The Epic]

One of them had to die if they're both

scum

town

:/

Mind explaining this? I mean, the fact that you just admitted one HAD to die is really suspicious. This your own agenda?

[Aj The Epic]

Being too dramatic Maestro; I've done that]
UNVOTE
VOTE: Maestro

Being too dramatic Maestro; I've done that]UNVOTEVOTE: Maestro

You just did.

Unvote. Vote Njoseph.

L-1

You've made two mistakes on this page. First, you basically said you knew the reason why Jake HAD to die. This blatant post hasn't sat well with me at all. Secondly, this vote was so sporadic and without reason, it scared me. In fact, with Maestro talking about P_M having an intent to hammer, I thought you HAD hammered Maestro until I looked back at the vote count. This vote makes me slightly insecure about having my vote on Maestro, especially if the quote above is your reason.

[Aj The Epic]

Actually, I believe that Njoseph just... hammered himself. That is a legal move, is it not? Well. I did NOT see that coming. Sorry guys, my bad if that's a legal move in this game.

[Aj The Epic]

Oh, in my original post, I had confused him with M_A when I looked at Empking's vote count.

Njoseph, serious, what the hell?

[Aj The Epic]

No one, I assume. You have removed yourself from being helpful at all. I can't imagine how you would help us from here on out after that move.

[Aj The Epic]

So, that was legitimately your way to try to get votes off of you? How long have you played mafia?

Okay, completely ignoring Nj from here on out: What do we need to discuss? This day has gone on for another weak, so I'd assume we're not doing all that badly with our time and I wouldn't mind discussing somethings before we hammer out Nj. I feel that we'll find our last scum between M_A, Maestro *completely depends on Nj's flip* and Robert. With 6 left going into night phase, I feel one confirm town and one probtown here.

Sham, Maestro: Is there anything we need to know that could help us should one of you two die? That might be a good question. It'd be interesting to gauge if the paper changes as it passes from one person to the next.

Lastly, Robert/MA: Where the hell are you and what are your thoughts.

The only thing stopping me from voting njoseph right now is that I've actually seen him do this as town

No way... Someone actually does that? Maybe we need a mafia 101 class here. Rule number 1: Don't self vote. Rule number 2: The objective is to NOT die.

[Aj The Epic]

@Aj: I've given my "last words", the only thing that I'd add is to ask why you think maverick_alpha's flip will in any way reveal what alignment I am. I can give the paper to somebody else, and when I do I imagine it will say the exact same thing it does now. They will draw their own conclusions from maverick_alpha's name being on the paper, as I've said, but also as I've said, I believe it means he might be Scum. Jake obviously did too. Now he's dead. I don't expect to be alive tomorrow at this point, but WIFOM etc.

Maestro *completely depends on Nj's flip*

No, I think that, would Nj flip scum, it verifies you as town.

Also, from both sides of the ball, the objective is not to die. Seeing as you die if you lose, and even if you survive as town and lose, you still die in endgame. So try not to die?

[Aj The Epic]

also thinking that aj was the other name on jake's paper considering how hard he went after him.

Was actually under the assumption it was Nj or Robert, but I can't find the comment that made me think that anymore...

Why is this not DEAD yet

One word: Njoseph.

[Aj The Epic]

Is he signed up to play the game?

[Aj The Epic]

I'm all for eliminating the troll right now, to be honest. He's playing awful...

[Aj The Epic]

The fuck didn't you claim this early on. Will no longer accept any other lynch but Aj or maverick_alpha.

Why are you tunneling so easily? Let me ask you, does my name being on the paper make you think I'm scum? If so, I would be VERY interested to see you make an argument against me. Stop tunneling. You're trying to force a BAD lynch, again. You've been dead set against M_A UNTIL Njoseph voted for you.

So, I await to see you make a legitimate argument. It'd probably be a first from you this game. Until then, your last comment is null. People with no input and who selfishly risk the paper that you seem to think is the crown jewel of this game do not dictate what happens. As stated before, you're holding that paper so you have some defense against getting rid of you should you slip.

[Aj The Epic]

We are running a little (or a lot) low on time. Faster is better, Mr. Macho Nacho.

[Aj The Epic]

unvote

If we don't lynch today, we're still in mylo tomorrow. It is to our benefit to find a lynch, and quickly. What I see as unfortunate is the fact that Maestro, who in this situation, is probably our best lynch, selfishly hung onto the paper.

I must say though, you are absolutely terrible at reading me so far...I'm inclined to think you're Town because of that lack-of-being-able-to-read-me thing and because this looks like the almost antagonistic mollie I saw in 1286...no offense. Then again I can't really use Audio Mafia for meta so I can't be sure.

I'd like to say that you haven't played much better than Njoseph, other than not self-voting. So P_M pressuring you isn't such a bad thing.

[Aj The Epic]

Since I was completely sniped, I have re-worded my post to be more moderate. It will take a lot of time and cutting, so if something doesn't make sense, it was probably me removing some harsher parts of my post.

Fine, I'll vote. VOTE: Maestro

Yes, you knew it was coming, but you well deserve it. Your logic is flawed. You, dictate a lynch with the way you've been posting? I find that to be very unlikely, as many of your posts on day 1 were susceptible to being wishy-washy. I'd rather let M_A or Njoseph (when he was here) dictate it. You are completely irrational, and let me explain why: You and Robert are the remaining scum. For some reason, no matter how we go, we can never seem to have anyone decide to vote Robert.

First off, I'll start with Robert because you probably will not enjoy my second part and move to reply before you actually go through and read my full post. Robert has not posted ANYTHING of value. He's either consistently gone after the easiest target or Shamrock, someone who I have marked as pro-town. Oh, and guess who he is currently voting for: M_A. Like you, through, he didn't ever give us a good, solid read on who he thought was scum. Well, actually, you did this in a different way, and I'll explain that later. Robert, in a game with over 670 posts, has 31, or 4.5% of the total content. Not to mention many of his posts are one or two sentences.

Now you. You have done quite well, having over 100 posts. Just an estimate, 1/6 generally equates to a little under 20%. Not actually going to do the math for that. But, my issue with you is: You vote JFSF, no real reason (was directly after he grabbed the paper). Eventually, you'd have developed an argument against him, but dropped him to vote Maverick_Alpha. We all, of course, know why, as you even say he's on your paper in the post. What's strange is that you then, when Robert is failing and I'm trying to lynch Breakfast, come out and state that you believe the scum team consists of Robert, me, or Breakfast and one other person (just for old time sake, I assume). So, at this point, you've voted for two people, tried to slander 3, having a grand total of 5 suspicions (apparently). Of course, you then hammered Breakfast to end the day.

That's just day 1. Realistically, as mentioned way earlier, the only thing I got from you was that you were all over the place and the only read you could develop was a read on a person who was on a paper you received. It took you all of 6 posts 3 of them two sentences or less, to get back onto M_A. You voted for him for two reasons beyond he was on the paper: One stated to P_M stating the fact that you were still alive could be WIFOM. The second being the fact that M_A was still alive meant he was probscum. That's, in my opinion, some awful reasoning.

So, in the end, the only read you've developed this whole game that you've felt obliged to let us in on is the FACT THAT M_A IS ON THE PAPER. You realize that on this evidence, or lack thereof, you could send us into lylo tomorrow. And then, you'd want to lynch the guy on the other paper to check to see if he's scum? Wow. That's actually a really effective strategy if you're scum. Which, I guess I should applaud you right now because, guess what, I have a feeling you are. And have, the whole day until Njoseph went off.

If the 'logic behind you vote' you've explained is what you plan to lynch M_A on, I hope to god the town will lynch you tomorrow should you be wrong. The evidence that is required for a normal lynch is not there. Look at the facts, people: Robert AND Maestro both voting for Breakfast with little reason, Robert AND Maestro both voting for M_A for little reason. Can anyone dispute that this is probably our scum team? For whatever reason that Njoseph distracted us, the scum are sitting right in front of us. We have nine hours to make the correct decision from where I am. Your reaction proves my point: Neither Robert or you have shown on the paper, neither of you have played a fantastically town game, neither of you have given us solid reads other than M_A on which to categorize you. And you'd lynch off the paper just to find the last two votes, lining up the votes for you. Here you go, your theory comes when you could put a lylo out and force the issue. Tonight, a mislynch, a kill. Tomorrow, I'd be left. You'd force a lynch on the simple logic that ONE HAS TO BE SCUM. And you'd plan to win on that? Look, I've played this game for a pretty long time and been in a lot of games, but that would literally be one of the most awful reasons to ever vote in lylo. And you're ENCOURAGING IT.

This cannot happen. We'll lose too easily off of such a lynch pattern as what you describe, and I hope that I'm not the only one seeing this.

[Aj The Epic]

Hmmm...thread still unlocked. Taking the time to say that if I told you so...I told you all so. In that case Aj goes tomorrow, agreed?
Also taking the time to say that if I end up not having told you so...Aj goes tomorrow, agreed?

Calling bullshit. Total scum, and I bet any money that M_A flips town. You're just leading lynches on townies and setting more up so you can win. That paper will verify me as innocent if it does anything at all.

[Aj The Epic]

I do not feel that any lynch but one on Quadz/Maestro or Robert is acceptable today. From my perspective, I'm town and PM and Sham are pretty much confirmed. This leaves those two. Methinks Rob is bussing his partner for town points at this point.

I also feel like someone tried to set me up here, as if killing Nachomomma8 would somehow prove me scum. If he had gotten the paper, my innocence would've been verified, so an interesting choice of a kill. I hate replacements because now we have to deal with a very different set of thoughts and questions that we wanted to ask on motives can no longer apply. This still doesn't change my opinion, I feel that yesterday's lynch spoke for itself: Robert and Maestro, same person, low reasoning. Breakfast: Robert and Maestro, same person, little reasoning. Am willing to accept either one being lynched today, as they are the only ones left.

Sham/PM, thoughts? Also, PM, interesting choice to send it to Robert... While I understand the reasoning behind not giving it to Nacho, I highly doubt that this helps us giving it to someone who is most likely scum.

[Aj The Epic]

Then why did you send the paper to Robert? I really am kinda questioning it.

[Aj The Epic]

Well, we need sham and Qwartz to chime in. More Sham, just to finalize how we finish this. If you want to go after Rob first, that's fine. I'm going to hold my vote just on the off chance I've been wrong about something, so no one can hammer it yet.

[Aj The Epic]

I love it. At least you're somewhat consistent with Maestro's line of thought. Qwints, you don't understand: There is only one logical scenario left: you and Robert. I'd love to see how you're going to frame me as scum by this paper and try to win the game that way, but it's over. You two are the last scum. Now, we do need to get Sham back here. We'll need him to lynch off Robert and/or Qwints.

But go ahead, post an argument. In a way, I feel bad for you, you kinda took over a role that you can't win from since it's basically been compromised as scum.

[Aj The Epic]

That's not going to help you, either.

Sham, would you please chime in at least once?

[Aj The Epic]

vote:Robert

One scum down. Qwints is all that remains. Shamrock either needs to be replaced or needs to post, in my eyes. His presence is necessary.

[Aj The Epic]

Or is AJ and Sham with AJ getting frustrated he can't get his quick lynch victory due to buddy-flaking.

Or is Qwints scum because everything else I've said yesterday so far has turned out true? Hesitant to help lynch Robert, someone who's kinda been seen as scum all day? I understand, if only you could get a mislynch today, you'd win... Not happening.

[Aj The Epic]

My post (676), was made when I thought we'd actually need one more for a lynch. I believe Shamrock was under the same impression. I also don't see a list of where you mentioned Robert. Would you like me to make one?

Spoiler:

Goody, an alt-slip. Brb, checking meta for NJ/Taz.

In the meantime, pirate, I don't really think your vote is justified given the level of explanation you gave.
@Shamrock/Jake: your votes are good. I want your thoughts: AJ/Robert Scumteam possible or no?

P-Edit @Shamrock: ^ Read above.
I think the whole team is definitely in [Robert2424, Aj The Epic, Breakfast,

one other person

]

First mention of Robert. Post 201. Calling him on a scum team with Breakfast or me (Or someone else, which I believe to have been M_A)

In post 192, Shamrock wrote:Oh good, Jake is playing the game now and is probably town after all.


In post 157, Robert2424 wrote:Vote Jake

That is really poor excuse. "I'm on my phone, nothing going to be solid posting from me, skim readings/postings, put what you want to say, I believe you can post just fine off your phone. I would post from my phone if I could and if I could, I would be able to read everything and make just as good judgement as on the computer.

I'm starting to believe everyone else here now....



This guy actually is scum. This vote is overjustified with terrible reasoning - Jake posting from his phone is the most suspicious thing that has happened in 6+ pages? How is it even suspicious at all? If you weren't suspicious of Jake enough to vote for him before, the idea that #154 put you over the edge is pretty silly. Also, Jake was providing plenty of content in the posts he made that preceded this one of Robert's. Robert is just awkwardly hopping on what he thought was a promising bandwagon.

UNVOTE: Jake
VOTE: Robert



Terrible reasoning? are you high? If anything your reasoning is Terrible for voting for me. The fact your the only person voting for me only backs it up. I feel this is more of an OMGOSH vote then anything. So Kudo's for that.

Second mention. A defense.

There is some interaction between them at the beginning of day 2. If you want to read it, it is posts 432 through 454. They were really short and had nothing of substance but Rob asking Maestro what he though M_A on the paper meant (to which, of course, Maestro suggested that it meant M_A was mafia).

The only direct mention to Robert yesterday was your vote, even after his bus attempt. Town points ftw attempt?

Well done AJ if you're goading me into this. I think AJ's willing to bus his partner here.

UNVOTE: Aj The Epic

VOTE: Robert2424

So, let me put my thoughts on the board again. P_M is town. There is almost no chance she is anything else, I've been thinking this for a while. Using the paper as an attempt at damning evidence against me just means you're really out of options and that you've got no other ability to attack me by my actual posts, Qwints. Maestro got frustrated doing so, but couldn't come up with any points that I didn't answer back tenfold.

Qwints/Maestro and Robert never had any real interaction. They distanced themselves and whenever they did post, it was quite shallow with Maestro sounding annoyed. This annoyance, though, seemed to be more of an cue to continue avoiding each other, evident by Maestro stating at the beginning of day two:

.....please don't make me yell at you to go read Day 1. Again.

and

I believe I stated after seeing maverick's reaction Day 1 that I had no idea...but now that I think about it, given that he is still alive, he's probScum today.
At least in my eyes... VOTE: maverick_alpha

Maestro refused to put any pressure behind Robert even though it's very evident that he is annoyed with Robert's posts. No accusations of skimming, of lurking or anything. Maestro was so passive about Robert. It was a ploy to get Robert to survive as long as he did.

Yesterday, Qwints voted off Robert, in my mind, too quickly. We needed to wait for Sham, but that didn't happen. Of course, now sham is gone and we won't hear from him because of a quick hammer. This proves to me, on top of everything I've said before, that Qwints is scum. He was afraid of Robert burying him any more in any fashion. Perhaps he feared Rob posting at that point because Rob could've easily have torn him down for sure today.

VOTE: Qwints

Mollie, I trust you to be pro-town, which is the only reason I'm voting. I haven't been wrong on my prediction 50% through. Qwints/Maestro has been trying to line up lynches based on a piece of paper. This to me is really bad as it would've been an easy win for him to just use the paper excuse.

If Qwints has any questions or arguments he wants to make, go ahead. I think Qwints is scum, mostly based off maestro's play, and then his quickhammering for Robert.

[Aj The Epic]

So, you completely disregard the chance of her being scum, because there is no possibility she is to you. Well, that's nice to know, seeing as the only way to be dead sure is to be scum.
I said that I didn't realize her vote had been the hammer. Interpret it any way you want, I still hadn't seemed M_A flip but knew the reason we were lynching him off wasn't on any real good basis.

We know the paper was probably meant to be interpreted by a senior bureaucrat. Neither ever got to one. Unfortunately, as stated, had Nacho been right, my innocence would've been proven as soon as it reached a senior. Someone didn't want that and so they killed the only claimer. Funnily enough, you seem certain that the paper is the damning evidence I am scum and whereas you think it's my damning evidence, I've already stated that I believe you're using it simply as a path to victory by lynching off two people on a piece of paper. What logic is that? Please, dear tell, with one person dead on the paper being town, has it occurred to you that maybe both were town? That rather then give away mafia, Emp just gave the town two innocent reads, almost like two innocent children were they used correctly.

What I want to know is why you quick hammered Robert before Sham came back. Rob didn't seem to have a capacity for any strong WIFOM that wasn't paper thin, so we probably could've at least cleared another person before putting him down. But no, you hammered him basically asap.

[Aj The Epic]

-.-

Sorry all. Yes, Rob and I won that.

[Aj The Epic]

Yeah. I'm glad that didn't go on for days. Probably wouldn't have been fun for any of us at the end.

[Aj The Epic]

Fair warning: I can only pull off a mafia win once in three, because doing so is pretty hard on my stress level.

Also to Maestro, my apologies. I feel like I probably attributed to you having searched for a replacement. Unfortunately, when I play scum, I go at people unusually hard and it isn't uncommon for me to make people really mad.

[Aj The Epic]

I can answer, since I kept playing the scenario out in my head: You looked at Nacho's post and believed him. Really, that's the only way you could've come to draw the paper as useful. And I was scared to death you would, since you were so quick on taking out M_A.

[Aj The Epic]

I was answering her question of how she could've seen the paper differently. To be honest, I wanted to say "Think of all the people who would watch this and see you lynch someone based on a metaphorical sheet of paper".

In the end, I feel I could've done better.

[Aj The Epic]

Oh, because I wanted the game to be done with just as much as everyone else. And Sham was lurking, so I didn't want to have to deal with another replacement and risk their reads when I new P_M's were rather neutral towards me at the very least.

[Aj The Epic]

But in all honesty, what does that help? She already knew at that point the odds were 50/50/

[Aj The Epic]

Jake, just an fyi, I chose to kill you because you were way better than what the town took you for. There was really no choice for me, I had to kill you because you would've eventually gotten me lynched. The town's lack of trust in you day one was a nice help for me getting through day 1. And, if you didn't notice yet, the kills were all really obvious who did them. But, I had read a thread that said most people in the meta didn't do much analysis of nks, so I figured I could get away with them.

[Aj The Epic]

http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/BNhnHjyawZYR

I vented a lot on the quick topic.

[Aj The Epic]

If you read the quick topic, day 3 did not go the way I was hoping it would.

I just re-read the whole thing myself and realized how very little I actually talked about players in the game. It was basically me trying to somehow figure out how to get Robert as far as I could. The original plan day three was to have robert follow you on any vote on my immediately as long as it wouldn't hammer me. He actually voted for you, which really had me worried. So, no. In general, I was trying to portray him as a bad player and use that as the reason to drag you down.

[Aj The Epic]

I actually never asked... I never knew that it could be restricted. I figure we did as Emp never stopped me. Not sure how much it helped in the end.

[Aj The Epic]

Maestro was very blunt for a long time. I decided to take advantage of it. The bluntness to me is generally something I attack because I feel that mafia has a bit of eloquence to it, and that you can never just say something stupidly blunt even if you believe it. Maestro said something like "I'll no longer accept a lynch on anyone but M_A or Aj". How could I not take advantage of something that comes off so easily as tunneling or setting up lynches? With a little patience and/or eloquence, making an argument becomes much more difficult for mafia.

[Aj The Epic]

Did you have a dead QT?