Micro 279: Uncommon Mafia - OVER

[implosion]

/confirm

[implosion]

PhDScar seems towny.

VOTE: Bert

[implosion]

Eh, i mean, he IS scum, but you don't have to vote him if you don't want to.

[implosion]

I can point you to several towngames where I've opened with a townread, not the least of which is my most recently completed game. It's kind of a habit I've gotten into.

implosion's kind of more nullish for me. Post 27's weirding me out, I don't really know what he's getting at there.

I don't like this line. What are you trying to say? Am I null? Or "nullish?" Or "kind of more nullish?" What's the point of calling me "kind of more nullish" rather than simply "null?"

[implosion]

VOTE: implosion

I really don't like the way you linked to another game to justify your move. It seems like you're trying to establish your own meta.
"I did this when I was town, so how could I possibly be scum this time?"

If you'd like, I can link to other towngames where I've linked to towngames to justify my moves . I am, in fact, trying to establish my own meta, because I find it extremely frequent that I'm attacked for things that are simply a part of my meta, and it's become easier to simply link to an example game in advance because people often ask for them.

And no, I'm not saying "how could I possibly be scum this time" - I'm saying "I have done this as town, therefore you calling it scummy is invalid unless you can point out that I do it in a disproportionate amount of my scumgames."

Implosion

———✹

Why exactly does PhDScar seem Towny?

———✹

Between Alduskkel and Yessiree, who'd you vote for?

———✹

Want to share any of your Town/Scum games?

1) PhDScar's RVS vote felt genuine, and his fluffpost afterwards felt not-forced.
2) Alduskkel. I actually had a vote for him in this post about 10 minutes ago, but I like his latest post. I lack a read on yessiree at this moment.
3) Not particularly unless the situation calls for it. If you'd like any games exemplifying anything in particular, feel free to ask.

I believe that you have enough content at this point that it is possible to formulate a read on you, however the difficulty is in interpreting that content. Contrast this with players who are null because of a lack of content.

The phrase "kind of" in my post is just sloppy writing.

Why don't you explain your thought process behind post 27?

That's a fairly good answer, although the original post still feels off.

My thought process for post 27 was something along the lines of "hm, I'm in the mood for a sarcastic post. I guess I'll make a sarcastic post."

[implosion]

Klick, PhDScar and Wake are all some flavor of townread right now.

DarkLight is a particularly enticing candidate for scum, with other options including Bicephalous Bob and Bert, however for both of them my suspicion stops at "their RVS vote felt meh."

As for DLA:

I really don't like the way you linked to another game to justify your move. It seems like you're trying to establish your own meta.
"I did this when I was town, so how could I possibly be scum this time?"

He "really" didn't like it, and yet it "seems" like I'm trying to establish meta. That change in tone feels slightly awkward. Attacking someone for "trying to establish their own meta" is also suspect; this is an action which is in no way scummy, so DLA tries to frame it as scummy by adding the part in quotation marks at the end, which is essentially a strawman attack on what I did. All I did was refute an attack by showing an example where the premise of that attack was true and the conclusion of that attack was false. DLA proceeded to paint that as scummy by rephrasing it, which is definitionally a strawman attack, which is scummy because it's an attack that lacks genuineness (i.e., it's attempting to misrepresent how scummy something actually is rather than genuinely attempting to assess each person as town/scum).

VOTE: DarkLightA

[implosion]

He "really" didn't like it, and yet it "seems" like I'm trying to establish meta. That change in tone feels slightly awkward. Attacking someone for "trying to establish their own meta" is also suspect; this is an action which is in no way scummy, so DLA tries to frame it as scummy by adding the part in quotation marks at the end, which is essentially a strawman attack on what I did. All I did was refute an attack by showing an example where the premise of that attack was true and the conclusion of that attack was false. DLA proceeded to paint that as scummy by rephrasing it, which is definitionally a strawman attack, which is scummy because it's an attack that lacks genuineness (i.e., it's attempting to misrepresent how scummy something actually is rather than genuinely attempting to assess each person as town/scum).

The reason I found it (very) suspicious was because, with no one asking you to, you linked to the other game. In addition to what I mentioned before, I find it scummy how aware you are of your actions as town, it's like your play in this game is intentional based on your town meta.

Ironically, you can find other examples of me doing this as town if you look into my meta... I am fairly aware of my town meta and I do try to play to it as scum. I also inadvertently play to it as town, seeing as it's... y'know, my town meta.

I appreciate you calling me out on that logical fallacy, it is indeed a straw man fallacy, which I used in order to accentuate my point, of course not meant to be taken literally, but to give a clearer indication of my thoughts about the topic. I do find your language very suspicious here "...this is an action which is in no way scummy,

so

DLA tries to

frame it

as scummy by adding the..."

Your post reeks of OMGUS.

OMGUS has a very specific definition: to vote someone because they voted for you. I did not, in any way, use the fact that you voted me as justification for voting you.

[implosion]

Implosion, DLA, what are your reads on Alduskkel?

Getting townier after post 76.

[implosion]

implosion,

so defensive

Yes, I'd say that's an accurate descriptor of my play.

[implosion]

How is him not wanting to elaborate on his vote because it's "more fun this way" "fair enough?"

[implosion]

Because he'll explain it later, I find it suspect you cut that out.

I cut it out because I wasn't particularly interested in DLA's reaction to that part of Aegor's statement. I was interested in his reaction to the second part of it.

And for some reason you didn't bring up how I said him not explaining the vote was "okay."

The vote isn't directed at you; I found DLA's reaction interesting from the standpoint of him being the person who is being voted. My immediate reaction upon seeing that post from DLA was "hm, he'd probably be more adamant about wanting to know why he's being voted if he were town." I actually didn't realize that Aegor had implicitly said that he'd explain it later.

[implosion]

Because he'll explain it later, I find it suspect you cut that out.

I cut it out because I wasn't particularly interested in DLA's reaction to that part of Aegor's statement. I was interested in his reaction to the second part of it.

And for some reason you didn't bring up how I said him not explaining the vote was "okay."

The vote isn't directed at you; I found DLA's reaction interesting from the standpoint of him being the person who is being voted. My immediate reaction upon seeing that post from DLA was "hm, he'd probably be more adamant about wanting to know why he's being voted if he were town." I actually didn't realize that Aegor had implicitly said that he'd explain it later.

So your read on DLA (and me, for that matter) has not changed?

I'd say DLA's reaction slightly reinforced my scumread on him; your actions haven't given me any strong reads.

[implosion]

I feel like Bert is unreadable. Which is sad.

[implosion]

Though poems I know
I cannot help but question
your motivation

[implosion]

Implosion, I agree
Bert is very hard to read
I won't vote for him

How does hard to read equate to won't vote for him? What's your general philosophy of how to deal with individuals who you can't get good reads on?

[implosion]

DLA for the blatant rolefish that he wouldn't dare make as scum,

Why *would* he dare make it as town, we ought to ask ourselves.

Because he didn't consider it to be a rolefish.

Then, I'd ask, why wouldn't he make it as scum?

If DLA considered what he did to be rolefishing, then he had no reason to post it as town, and would opt for something more subtle.
If DLA considered what he did not to be rolefishing, then your argument has no merit, as your argument is based on motivations.

How strong of an argument do you consider this to be in favor of DLA town, Klick? I can see it as a weak argument in favor of it, but I think if he's capable of making that post as town, then he's certainly capable of making that post as scum simply for playstyle reasons.

[implosion]

Unvote

There is a rather stark contrast between the two games DLA linked. So DLA's argument gains credibility, and it's starting to look more likely to come from town. Primarily because I that it's actually a pretty good (good both in the sense of persuasive and in the sense of genuine) argument.

DLA: do you typically do meta-analyses of players as both town and scum?

[implosion]

I like the Bert wagon more than the Alduskkel wagon. I think. Although at this point I don't have great reads in this game. I should try to work on that, but i'll be damned if anyone in this game ever posted anything alignment-indicative. Bert seems to just post random sentences, PhD nearly stopped posting, Klick nearly stopped posting, Bicephalous only recently started saying things that seem readable, Aegor is an enigma, and yessiree is self-proclaimed "asymptotically more useful" later (i.e., less useful now). I mean granted I have SOME reads on some of those people from their earlier posts but seriously.

And then of the other two people, both of whom I think have done things that reads can be gleaned from, I've seen things that I think are significant in both directions.

So yeah, I've been reading this game but I just cannot for the life of me think of things to say.

[implosion]

i can see myself jumping on the klickwagon after letting it simmer for a bit. Not a fan of his recent posting. I'll get into more specifics later.

[implosion]

VOTE: Bob

Bob's scum trying to make himself look like Ald's partner down the road, now that I've said it.

This is a contrived point. Scum don't usually have such complicated motivations in the face of things like this - if I were scum and saw someone pushing a team of me and a townie, my reaction wouldn't be "oh, well this one person pushing me certainly means I'm dead soon. I had better paint this guy as sucmmy." It'd be more along the liens of "welp, time to defend myself." The whole bob/ald-are-scum-no-wait-ald-is-town thing feels contrived in general. It feels like pushing really almost random details while there are much more significant things that have been said.


Anyway, traveling back to some older posts:

Thanks for the argument guys, you're both town. DLA for the blatant rolefish that he wouldn't dare make as scum, and yessiree for caring more about the insult there than how the argument will make him look. His feelings about his Bert read look genuine as well.

VOTE: implosion

The reason this feels contrived is because it feels like something Klick was planning to do - i.e., it feels like he said the one of dla/implosion is scum thing with the intent of later voting one of us. The phrasing of this post feels like "hey thanks, i was waiting for one of you two to do something i could townread." And this led to a vote on me which was both a solo vote and a vote that never had any stated reasoning behind it, so it was never actually going to draw a wagon - it was just parked, awkwardly, away from the main wagons to make it look like Klick was doing stuff.

Then, after that post, he never mentions the implo/DLA thing again, even though it seemed to be the one opinion that was central to his play early d1. I don't really have to say a lot about the jump on to Ald.

VOTE: Klick
I agree with Bob.

Okay, what the fuck is this.

Bob didn't even give much of a reason for his vote, as opposed to DLA giving reason to suspect me.

(Phone-bound, my internet connection was mysteriously missing when I woke up this morning)

This feels like scum caught for the wrong reasons, or something similar - he implicitly has no issue with being voted (even though this may not be true), only with the fact that the person who was being sheeped is the person who gave no reasoning.

[implosion]

Also, yesterday, I misread stuff and that Aegor had voted, and I didn't want to L-1 yesterday.

Now I'm happy to~

VOTE: Klick

[implosion]

I misread stuff and thought that Aegor had voted*

[implosion]

I'm somewhat inclined to think that the way Klick is refusing to claim is townish.

Unvote

I'll have time to reevaluate this a bit tonight. I also intend to look more closely at Aegor.

[implosion]

*deep sigh*

GOING WITH GUT

VOTE: Aegor

Given the choice between claiming and death, how could town justify not claiming, unless they are irresponsibility building some larger meta, thereby sacrificing the individual game?

This just doesn't seem like a rational thing to say in a game titled "Uncommon Mafia." If Klick is scum, it's going to take a damn good fakeclaim to justify his play today; instead of saying "oh, maybe Klick has a role that would make sense to not claim with," Aegor immediately jumps to a conclusion of asking about "fakeclaim competence," as if preemptively assuming that the claim will be fake. This attitude seems incongruous with his claim that Klick isn't his top suspect; he should be willing to consider new evidence as it pops up if he's town, and his reaction to Klick's refusal to claim feels off.

I'll

probably

certainly wind up changing my mind and voting

BBMolla

someone with 0 votes tomorrow. Such is life. My gut is telling me Klick is town, and my gut is telling me the Aegor wagon isn't a bad wagon. I like Mac's vote on Aegor, I like the way Alduskkel is pushing Aegor. I like Klick's play on this page, it doesn't feel like scum-who-wants-to-survive, it feels like town who is in a combination of a "well fuck you guys" mindset and a "well it really is a bad idea for me to claim so" mindset.

[implosion]

i strongly disagree that those posts from me and Bert say less about alignment than typical votes.

[implosion]

also, if you are town, don't take it so hard. it's day one. reads are very very much in flux.

[implosion]

VOTE: Bert

Why is it better?

Also, Aegor, your role pm says vanilla town?

No, it does not.

now, THIS. THIS is the kind of vote that gives less information than a typical vote with a case.

also jesus christ this game. here's to hoping.

[implosion]

(and yes i know you said you'd prefer a bert wagon before, i'm being sarcastic)

[implosion]

Good morning.

[implosion]

Idk. I guess we lynch someone.

[implosion]

VOTE: Klick

I know you did something last night, did you play around with gas?

this is a very silly thing to say after klick very loudly softclaimed a power role yesterday.

[implosion]

well that's awkward.

I was expecting there to be a claim already to explain why the no kill happened.

Why? We have a flipped firefighter - it's quite possible that either there's an arsonist or mafia that have some unusual method of killing or anything else along those lines. i.e. shenanigans could be afoot. And besides, it isn't always in a kill-stopping town role's interest to claim...

[implosion]

If a Compulsive Self-Vanillaizer turns Vanilla, then the Vanilla should have the ability to gain abilities unlike a Compulsive Self-Vanillaizer which loses them -- that means that the two roles are, in fact, different. The required role would be Compulsive Self-Self-Self-Self-Self ...(times infinity) -Self-Self-Vanillaizer.

But I digress.

Not quite - it'd have to be a compulsive self-(compulsive self-(....compulsive self-vanillizer)-izer)-izer...)-izer. I think.

Given what yessiree is saying i think i might be in favor of a claim from klick. I think PhDScar might be the flavor of the day with regards to the next wagon, potentially.

[implosion]

VOTE: Klick
That is, most definitely, not a role that warrants not claiming yesterday.

[implosion]

I find it difficult to believe that a negative utility role would softclaim to avoid a lynch. At the very least it's bad/overly risky play.

[implosion]

(particularly in an uncommon role game. I also find it difficult to believe that you'd put no thought into who you targeted given that your role pretty strongly implies that there's a watcher/tracker-style role)

[implosion]

I doubt there are any useful roles left with no N1 kill and a firefighter

Disagree. Arsonist methods of killing are *EXTREMELY* strong. At least the arsonist roles i've seen. Even with a firefighter, they have the capability to suddenly kill 3 people, spontaneously winning the game from a situation that looked like it had a mislynch.

[implosion]

I'll try this again

I'm under the command of a captain who can tell me who to target

the captain who can tell me what to do is probably alien because it'd be impossible to counterclaim me if he wasn't

also what would be the point of having to follow the captain's orders if he's town

I wouldn't get any spectacular results unless the aliens are stupid or I'm stupid and wrong about the captain being an alien

also I'm a miller

I can immediately think of a town role that took orders from another town role - see silva/zeno/light's roles here. Granted, it was a larger game. But I don't know about 'impossible to counterclaim.' I certainly believe you're town after this claim though.

How exactly do you interpret your "not guilty" on klick? Could he be an/the arsonist?

Unvote

[implosion]

VOTE: PhDScar

He's the only person left who i don't see some good reason to not vote. (Assuming there's more than one scum this means that one of those people is scum, but i digress).

[implosion]

Mafia vigs do exist.

they're also

almost

guaranteed to be *HILARIOUSLY* overpowered in any game with fewer than, oh, seventeen players.

[implosion]

not if the faction doesn't have a vanilla nk

But the kind of mafia vig aldi was talking about *does* have a vanilla nk:

Imagine having a Mafia Vigilante who can use their action in addition to the factional kill.

In addition: how did Alduskkel's name start being abbreviated to Aldi?

[implosion]

I'm not opposed to massclaim.

[implosion]

In an ideal world I wouldn't actually claim my role so that I could get quickhammered in mylo or something like that, but in the interest of setup speculation since it's becoming fairly involved in this game:

I'm a 1-shot unlynchable townie.

[implosion]

Incidentally I'm at school now, so I have less free time than I have had.

Still think PhD is best lynch.

[implosion]

grarghdeadline.

i'm not strongly opposed to the serra lynch. I think I prefer a phd vote, though. I don't have much to say in terms of specifics WRT that; the only reason I dislike a serra lynch particularly in the first place is the inno on him (which I think is probably a valid reason to not lynch him

for now

even if it is multiball).

[implosion]

I'm really sorry, but I'm going to

request replacement.

RL is more time/energy-consuming than I thought it would be, and I don't have enough to devote to this game.