Micro 412: 9P Rebels In The Palace (Game Over)

[Anatole Kuragin]

/confirm

[Anatole Kuragin]

wow, two people have rage quit before my first post

hey guys

[Anatole Kuragin]

Also, I'm not available 90% of the time on weekends so consider me V/LA friday night until monday morning.

[Anatole Kuragin]

So is the "best performance: town" thing supposed to be ironic or what?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Do I need to?

Please?

Please?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Just getting some really custy vibes, brah?

[Anatole Kuragin]

yo boonskiees

[Anatole Kuragin]

there's not really a pro-town explanation for you putting words in his mouth like that

[Anatole Kuragin]

You can be annoying and ineffective without being scum

[Anatole Kuragin]

Jason, please quote Wisdom's posts that you felt were productive and useful, because all I've seen is wisdom asking people if they're scum (fucking ace in the hole tactic right there) or calling players scum with no reasoning.

[Anatole Kuragin]

So to be clear, you were just bullshitting when you said he has done more because you "trust" him?

Which insights do you think he has provided that are most useful? What do you think about his gut reads?

[Anatole Kuragin]

I never said I had content, quit deflecting.

You said Wisdom did, and that you liked it. But there isn't any.

[Anatole Kuragin]

You either deliberately lied to put me in a worse position and wisdom in a better one, or to buddy up to Wisdom.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Why are you avoiding answering my questions?

"more

than

you have" doesn't count if you can't point to one single example of useful information. It's apparently significant enough for you to defend him but not enough to be detectable on the visible spectrum

[Anatole Kuragin]

Reads based on alignment neutral stuff? is that it?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Nothing in this game is alignment neutral.

Gonna keep just making up bullshit?

this may be the dumbest post anyone has ever made in the history of mafia, congrats

[Anatole Kuragin]

and now it's only the second dumbest

[Anatole Kuragin]

Ok, keep buddying vocal players with obvious BS, I'm sure wisdom is love getting his ego stroked

VOTE: jason

[Anatole Kuragin]

loving*

[Anatole Kuragin]

Reads based on alignment neutral stuff? is that it?

what is alignment neutral for you isnt for me

That doesn't change that Jason has no reason whatsoever to defend your posts that have no clear evidence or reasoning aside from you just wanting to poke and prod at people for reactions.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Looks like buddying considering if he was a rebel he wouldn't know your alignment.

[Anatole Kuragin]

You weren't interacting with him - you were interacting about him. In fact, you did it in a way that discouraged me from interacting with him when we were discussing earlier content. So no, that's false.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Hey wake!

Boon, why do you think wisdom's scummier than jason?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Wisdom's picking major sides this whole game and trying to stay on the right people's good sides.

Could you quote an example? Who do you think the "right people" are?

[Anatole Kuragin]

why would that be more beneficial in RITP than a normal game?

[Anatole Kuragin]

So am I reading this right in that the only difference between this and a standard micro is scum don't have complete knowledge of who the other mafia are?

[Anatole Kuragin]

would rather vote jason or fudu than ika

[Anatole Kuragin]

VOTE: fudeeznuts

does that count because I had to do it

[Anatole Kuragin]

VOTE: Fuduzn

[Anatole Kuragin]

Wow, I obviously need to start reading the rules of games I join

[Anatole Kuragin]

This looks exactly like town Ika I've played with

[Anatole Kuragin]

Claiming to always hammer and not doing shit else basically

[Anatole Kuragin]

VOTE: jasonwazza

Pretty sure he's a guard, but since there's apparently no night kill it's beneficial for us to find and lynch guards too.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I think he may have approached the game the wrong way. Now that I sorta get what's going on I think it's clear we need to lynch just like in a regular game. If there was a nightkill we would need to focus extra on the king, but since there isn't, lynching guards is almost as good since it cuts the scumteam.

I think wisdom is playing too brash to be king for sure. I think he's town.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Wisdom was trying to lynch people he felt were being inconspicuous or reacted poorly to being pressured, but the latter is a trait of townies as well, as fudeeznuts showed.

[Anatole Kuragin]

VOTE: Fudzn

Boon, why did you switch to fu?

[Anatole Kuragin]

VOTE: Fudzn

Boon, why did you switch to fu?

[Anatole Kuragin]

poker, I'm default v/la on weekends

[Anatole Kuragin]

I still don't like Wazza and I feel like he is deliberately avoiding attention.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'm here, a real post will be soonish.

You realize that i'm saying you should be voting wisdom over me yeah?

And i'm not scum painting you, i'm pointing out your stupid.

It's funny because no one is yet to explain that if me and Wisdom are scum, why aren't people voting wisdom since he would more likely be the king of us both.

Flubber has been avoiding that point of the conversation since yesterday.

This is all he's said since last wednesday.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Yeah, he's not. He's town.

VOTE: jason

Thinks someone's town, goes on to vote. If you're town, that is horrible. If scum, too obvious and there's no reason not to lynch you.


VOTE: Wisdom

It's not a bad point wisdom. I know you're trying to force him into a 1v1 but voting a townread in a game this short/small is a pretty horrible idea.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Lynching jason is how I'm playing the game. If I'm wrong then I'll humor you.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I don't think voting you makes boon scum though, if I wasn't confident in this lynch I'd probably consider it too.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'm not seeing a case presented. You OMGUS'd boon and you wanted to lynch wake because he hasn't contributed much, but if I was looking for someone not contributing, he wouldn't really be at the top of the list.

[Anatole Kuragin]

when did you ever make a point for wake scum besides lack of contribution? I'm reading your ISO and not seeing it

[Anatole Kuragin]

Of the three options with votes, I think Jason is the best still.

[Anatole Kuragin]

it's possible he's not, but I've been scumreading jason too long to let him stay in. Some of boon's posts make sense to me - jason is just deflecting and laying low

[Anatole Kuragin]

no

[Anatole Kuragin]

not that I know of, at least

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'm guessing you have criteria that work for you to figure out if he's town scummy or scum scummy then?

[Anatole Kuragin]

It's going to be hard for me to take your word on that when I've been gut scumreading him from the start.

[Anatole Kuragin]

That's a good point - I hadn't considered that post in the context of his two preceding it. It looks like he's deliberately flipping his vote from who he claims to think is king to who he claims to think is a guard.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'd compromise with a boon lynch, but I think I like wake for town.

[Anatole Kuragin]

VOTE: Boonskkies

[Anatole Kuragin]

When he's town he has a weird, relentless drive. He's posting more sparsely but I still get that vibe from his posts - very accusatory, inquisitive tone.

He's also admittedly trying to change his style up which I can see a bit, but that backbone (what I described above) is still there.

[Anatole Kuragin]

wisdom is almost certainly town

[Anatole Kuragin]

probably ika or klingon

[Anatole Kuragin]

if boon is king, you're right

[Anatole Kuragin]

King - he's the most active player in the game by far, and also the most aggressive/divisive. K

Guard - he's genuinely put pressure on pretty much every player (maybe literally every player) in the game, hasn't tried protecting anyone.

[Anatole Kuragin]

King - he's the most active player in the game by far, and also the most aggressive/divisive. K

Guard - he's genuinely put pressure on pretty much every player (maybe literally every player) in the game, hasn't tried protecting anyone.

@wake regarding wisdom

[Anatole Kuragin]

maybe - without meta and without ever playing a ___ in the palace game, I'm going off what makes the most sense to me tropically

[Anatole Kuragin]

Anatole is intervening on Wisdom's behalf. Does this have relevance in a RitP Setup?

I'd like you to work with me, Wisdom, and that includes answering me honestly and thoroughly on why you contributed to fuduzn being mislynched. In spite of this you're now asking me about Boon, when I am wanting answers from you and you either avoid or ignore me. Why did you vote for fuduzn? Trying to redirect my attention to Boonskiies will not work. Please answer my question, or I will continue to focus on you this game.

All I want are answers. If you're Town, please be Town and work with me.

yeah this is basically the town-wakest post you'll ever get, as frustrating as that is

[Anatole Kuragin]

because of this http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6196827

[Anatole Kuragin]

link messed up, but wake's iso fully supports this as town behavior

[Anatole Kuragin]

also there's some scum meta for me if anyone is interested

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'll find some posts

[Anatole Kuragin]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6203346

"Definitely a scum slip" about a town player

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6205964

arguing that the two claimed neighbors were actually a scumteam with no basis other than them claiming to be neighbors

he also continued to argue all game that the

confirmed mason

was very possibly scum despite everyone's objections.

I don't mean to bring this up to sling mud because he's said himself he's trying to better his game, but it's a fact that he's stubborn and gets stuff in his head and pursues it and pursues it way beyond usefulness.

[Anatole Kuragin]

also it was an extremely long mini that I don't especially want to relive, but take my word for it - hardheaded is 100% wake town

[Anatole Kuragin]

Yeah, when I have two of my scumreads as lynch candidates I'm not going to sit by and let you get a lynch mob together for my top townread. The fact that you think only scum would have ever reason to defend a player from a lynch is a little troubling.

[Anatole Kuragin]

But can you guarantee that he can't fake that as scum?

no, but it makes it a lot easier to buy that he actually thinks he's right, which gives him town points

[Anatole Kuragin]

But can you guarantee that he can't fake that as scum?

no, but it makes it a lot easier to buy that he actually thinks he's right, which gives him town points

Anatole, if I voted for you and when asked why I simply said "because he's scummy," would that satisfy you?

no, because presumably in this situation I'm fu with a town PM

If I'm a third party townie? probably

[Anatole Kuragin]

and this is assuming it's day one in the hypothetical ^

[Anatole Kuragin]

I've mislynched people on a shitty gut read before without much to back it up so when someone admits they fucked up a day one lynch based on gut, I don't find that wildly outlandish

[Anatole Kuragin]

Wake, he has already explained that it was more or less pure gut that he voted fu. If that's not a satisfactory answer to you then vote him - but that's pretty clearly the only answer he's going to give regardless of how much artificial pressure we create.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Wake, he has already explained that it was more or less pure gut that he voted fu. If that's not a satisfactory answer to you then vote him - but that's pretty clearly the only answer he's going to give regardless of how much artificial pressure we create.

i stand corrected

[Anatole Kuragin]

He's cold-hearted and ruthless as Scum. Doesn't give a shit what someone thinks of him because he can simply NK the fuckers. Stated in his first post in another game's Scum QT that he won't hesitate to bus his partners.

I'm pretty sure that what we have here is Town Wake.

Yes but then consider the fact he has no night kill and also if a king has no way of knowing his teammates, wouldn't that possibly make him less townie.

That would apply to most of us though.

If he were king I'd expect the guards to defend him.

Want to do that? Start wagons on everyone and see who blinks? Might work.

You realize by declaring this, you completely undermine the possibility of it working, right?

It's like saying you're "pressure voting" someone.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Yeah that sounds like a nice test.

VOTE: Boonskiies

I could see Klingoncelt being a guard to wake-king too

Nope. My connection to Wake is that he hosts most of the games at the site I came from.

This post is fucking disgusting btw.

I agree with every part of this post, Jason.

[Anatole Kuragin]

@Ika - Will you promise not to hammer anyone for a while?

Why?

[Anatole Kuragin]

I wouldn't say this is necessarily town Wake, but I'd say this is pretty obviously town Boon. As scum, my reads are incredibly consistent. I don't care about anything when I'm town. If you guys end up lynching me today, lynch Wisdom tomorrow, 'cuz I'm town.

I don't know if I would say your reads are incredibly consistent - I remember using a legitimate case against you while bussing in DoctorPepper's game because you were inconsistent in your attacks day 1.

[Anatole Kuragin]

"I don't know if I would say your reads are incredibly consistent as scum"*

[Anatole Kuragin]

my boon case from the game where we were partnered for anyone interested

Spoiler: boon bus

Okay, so you want to be vigged.

The vig detector is now if Boonskiies dies overnight, if there's two kills and he doesn't we have a serial killer.

Who said you were town, boon?

You said that you would play in such a way that you would behave detrimentally to the town. The only reason to consciously do this is a meta game effort to make your scum play indistinguishable from your town play.

Not only is this against the spirit of this site (play to win the game you are in), it's a detestable, pathetic maneuver. You wish to be unable to read? Fine, I grant you your wish, a place on my blacklist , and copious bullets to pump into your corpse.

Vig, kill this useless piece of shit.

I'm actually beginning to believe that Grey may be a serial killer. He keeps talking like he knows there is a killing role out there other than scum's factional kill. Him bringing up the vigilante constantly to kill someone regardless of alignment is odd to me. Granted, I understand how he could be annoyed by the fact I said I would hammer, but come on man. I said I was a village idiot, I'm just clowning around. It seems as if he is trying to set himself up for a vigilante claim later in the game, which is another reason he's so out to kill me specifically. I'm being targeted to seem like a vigilante will kill me in the night, when in actuality, a serial killer will be doing it, and then he'll be able to fake claim Vigilante and get away with it. On the flipside, the possibility of him being scum, and hoping for a second kill to potentially get a mislynch is also a possibility. Anywho, with the stuff I have to go on now, along with the toxicity, I like where my vote is going to be placed.

VOTE: GreyIce

I agree that his vig discussion is weird. I don't think he's crumbing vig either, as that wouldn't be the wisest way to go about it. Although he could be luring a NK to him, and if he is actually something like VT, I'd say it was good play.

I get that the SK is a little farfetch'd this early in game. I'm over analyzing. Kind of how like OMGUS votes are done by townies because the person voting them initially seemed scummy because the person is actually town. I still feel pretty safe with my vote there for now.


PEdit:

@Rufflig - Well, I don't know how serious he is. I obviously switched up from my troll-like approach immediately after, and yet he still goes on being a toxic player, which in itself is kind of troll-like. I don't see how 'serious' of a player he can be with that attitude, unless he's scum, which him trying to get a lynch/3rd party NK on me would make sense.

I'm looking for inconsistencies and ignorance. Usually I tend to believe people are super ignorant, when in fact they are just scum.

Speaking of inconsistencies - why did you stop speculating on the SK after dropping an early vote on GreyICE for pretty lax reasoning because you thought it might be him (despite not having any evidence whatsoever that an SK exists)?

@massive - It was showing how often I speculate things like I did with the SK posts for GreyIce. I go out there with speculation.

So why are you going with the easiest vote in the game now?

My reasoning for voting him isn't necessarily based on his scum meta. I actually don't believe he's playing too similar to that game either besides prominence and willingness to accept a lynch on someone. In that game he lurked when things starting to cave in on him. I didn't pay a lot of attention to him in that game because I wasn't able to read him. I don't believe his meta from that game should be counted as any reasoning for his lynch toDay, but if someone else could argue otherwise, maybe. He also had stated that it was his worst game he's ever been in, so I would imagine that had some effect as well. I skimmed through that game again, and I really couldn't find any matches besides what I've already stated. But like I said, I don't believe we should scum read OR town read him due to that.


PEdit:

@BBT - I will unvote if it comes to that, but don't expect me to stay unvoted if you can't back it up with new relevant reasons.

1) you say you voted BBT for "flip-flopping," as if this style of play is inherently scummy (particularly interesting because his flip-flopping is all on wagons nowhere near lynches) despite you defending your own style of play multiple times before this. (example, #706 where you FoS massive)
2) What "reasons" can he give you that he is town? What did you expect in response to this?

I just want to get to day 2 already for new information. We've been rehashing the same thing for the past 20 pages.

This looks like pre-emptive defense for having put a recently-flipped town player to L-1 with weak reasoning. "He kinda looked scummy but we got good info!"

So let's consider what info we'll get as you have gesticulated on that on a few occasions.

So from your expert analysis - whether BBT is scum or not, TTH is scum, and if BBT IS scum then I am also scum. I also like to plant the seeds for future lynches without any real evidence early on in the game when I'm playing as scum.

Doogal/AK haven't been around lately. Scrambles/GreyIce slot seem off to me. Especially considering Omph didn't unvote after joining in and we haven't seen him since. Also scrambles was kind of random and didn't back anything else up. Definitely worth looking into tomorrow.

So in addition to BBT, TTH, me and Massive being suspicious, you are also suspicious of Scrambles, Jagged, and Doogal? Isn't that what you're saying here?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Any thoughts? Anyone? Bueller?

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'm not voting a player that has done nothing all game on LYLO when there's no NK. I'm going to vote someone who has done demonstrably scummy things. It doesn't matter if we hit guard or king we but we HAVE to hit scum today or it's game over.

[Anatole Kuragin]

It's LYLO if ika is not scum. I'd rather vote someone who I'm confident is either guard or king rather than someone who, in my mind is either king or nothing.

What is your argument from him being guard? Because that's not even remotely what I've gotten from him.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Jason and Klingon are my lynch pool today. I'm guessing the reason ika hasn't been hammered is because one of the two on his wagon are scum, leaving only one floating scum vote.

Klingon is scum.

VOTE: Klingon

[Anatole Kuragin]

there's no way ika is a guard

[Anatole Kuragin]

Ika is guaranteed guard, not guaranteed king.

Guards are the only information holders in this game - they know who the king is, and they don't want that to be outed. It's exactly the same in AITP, but vice versa, since the king and his guards are the majority there. Ideal play for AITP is to just randomly lynch without discussion, so that the guards don't out the king. Similarly, the guards here don't want their king outed. ika already proposed in the beginning of the game that we play this AITP style, namely just to random lynch, but that would be a disaster for this game because we

want

the king outed, unlike AITP, and therefore we want discussion. When he realized we won't be doing that (which he kinda knew was wrong already), he just stayed silent in his corner and only came in the thread to hammer wagons or talk to wake about non-game things. This way, he doesn't discuss, and he runs no risk of outing his king. Further, he plays to his wincon by hammering people.

Do you not agree that ika is following a guard mindset one hundred percent?

What has ika done that implies he has any knowledge of the setup? It looks to be like he's either

a) king and laying low (I think this is unlikely)
or
b) just fucking the game off and letting us lose by lynching him

[Anatole Kuragin]

Ika didn't suggest we do AITP though. Wake asked him about his theory, Ika explained it, then said he didn't bother suggesting it because we wouldn't be interested.

If that's all your theory is based on, it's really weak.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I think for guards we're looking for people pushing mislynches and deflecting, not someone laying low. That should be the king. There are players who have done both when it was appropriate - jason and klingon slot.

[Anatole Kuragin]

If that's all your theory is based on, it's really weak.

You didn't read anything, confirmed

Can you do something fucking productive and explain what part you think I'm not getting? Or actually come up with a convincing theory?

[Anatole Kuragin]

I read your argument. a) your point about his AITP thing is demonstrably false by reading the game and b) your argument about guards laying low is indefensible and unassailable WIFOM based on presumably the way you would play

[Anatole Kuragin]

mkay glanced though and all i ahve seenw as dicussion and a pissoff fight

that being said yes wake its breakable, we have an entire MD thread about it but i know it will be ignored so im just not doing anything about it.

if anyone is wondering the idea is to have 0 discussiona nd randomly lynch in hopes ot get the king

why would that be more beneficial in RITP than a normal game?

we need to root one player to win the game, in nomal you have to root them all, this is like a thinly veiled moutain mafia tbh

Thats what happens in AITP, there's no reason to do such a thing here where scum are the minority.

exactly why i didnt even bring it up, i knew it would be shot down in a heartbeat

two apathetic posts in his first 54 does not look like an idea he's legitimately trying to push

[Anatole Kuragin]

he seems just as apathetic about that as he has the rest of the game so far

[Anatole Kuragin]

and how often do scum play "optimally" in any game?

[Anatole Kuragin]

Jason has gone away for days at a time only to return to throw his hat in on a mislynch. He could easily be either type of scum.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Klingon too.

[Anatole Kuragin]

yeah you sound like a really skilled and useful player with that attitude

[Anatole Kuragin]

well ika doesn't seem especially interested in playing this game and probably should have replaced out by now. I'm not really interested in defending further a player who won't contribute, but like I've said, I'm not going to potentially throw the game away on what I see as a pretty weak case either

[Anatole Kuragin]

The validity or importance of gut reads is something that has been discussed this game in regards to wisdom's reads and wake's taking issue with that and I think that kind of scumhunting has higher importance in games like this with no night kills or afaik any power roles at all. That considered, my gut reads are ika is less scummy than jason and klingon. Wisdom, I get that you disagree but to call me an idiot or scum because I'm giving more credence to my gut than to your weak case is like willfully putting on blinders to your previous mistakes in this game as well as your argument with wake.

[Anatole Kuragin]

No, the case sucks, just like your cases on every currently dead townie have sucked. I'm simply done having any faith in your ability to find scum and I'm not going to throw down votes willy nilly anymore.

[Anatole Kuragin]

thanks for all the help ika, you really pulled your weight.

GG everybody, thanks for hosting poker

[Anatole Kuragin]

thanks for all the help ika, you really pulled your weight.

GG everybody, thanks for hosting poker

Anatole...Please stop making comments like this. Sometimes people have off games. Although I'm sorry that you've unfortunately been in several games in a row where players weren't playing at their best, usually they recognize it internally.

I'll concede that my comment to ika was rude - I've played with him before and I hope he'll understand that I get people have off games and I completely understand the apathy thing.

So I apologize, Ika. I like you as a player and my comment was unnecessary.

That said, Reinoe, both games I've played with you, you've shown a complete lack of acknowledgement of the events happening around you. You can't say your behavior in bob's game was from having an "off game," there's literally no way you could have come to the conclusion you did if you had any interest in winning the game or reading it at all and that kind of behavior isn't really acceptable when, in a mafia game, so many people are committing a lot of their time and energy and expect other people not to just trash it for them.

[Anatole Kuragin]

wake, I think you are being unnecessarily paranoid. all of us have reasons to criticize your play and it has nothing to do with gossip or slander or whatever you want to call it.

[Anatole Kuragin]

just like you have valid reasons to criticize others' play. it doesn't mean you have some malicious agenda against them, it just means you see something in their play that they may not. People try to point this out to you and you lash out at them which leads to people having a negative opinion of you - if you do this to enough people it might start seeming like there's a grand conspiracy against you but it's a natural product of pissing people off in every game you play