512: Bojack Horseman Season 2 (Over)

[T S O]

!

[T S O]

Someone give me a summary of important happenings? I really don't feel like reading.

[T S O]

Wisdom modkill seems rather harsh given that he was wrong.

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Actually, if scum make both their nightkills, we only need to mislynch twice to lose.

Maybe I will read a bit.

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If you feel that your scumread is the very best and you need me on it, feel free to try to sell me. I'll probably end up basing my vote largely on my own views, though.

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I claimed daycop as a gsmbit

I really hope no-one believed you, this is the worst gambit ever.

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VOTE: nolynch

This just means that scum need to get one less successful kill. The only positive utility to this is if you feel that we're better off keeping everyone alive for potential PR actions rather than potentially slaying a PR, which is probably possible but I really don't know if it's optimal.

[T S O]

I also don't know why you're voting NL, given that I recall seeing some huge case you made on PV. Have you changed your mind, or ...?

[T S O]

But you made that case like 6 pages ago. And linking posts when you're making a case takes ages. So what has he said since then that changed your mind?

[T S O]

I still think he's scum but I no longer dare to bet the game on it

But regardless of whether we lynch or not today, we have one lynch left. Today, you can lynch him and get a second chance tomorrow if he flips town. But if we NL today, then you have to stake the game on being correct tomorrow.

[T S O]

I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from here, MS. I know it's possible that you're operating with more information/influence in the night than I am and if you really think that NL'ing is the correct play then I won't push it. But otherwise, it makes literally no sense.

In fact, as I write this, it occurs to me that keeping PV alive means that he'll likely draw your night action, as well as potentially drawing other night actions. If he's scum, then it's a waste because we could have lynched him today and got extra information during the night, and if he's town, then night actions which could have caught scum were wasted on him. I just can't see how No Lynch benefits us.

[T S O]

Also I feel vaguely uneasy about leaving it up to night actions to win us the game when this game is probably reasonably balanced and it's unlikely to pan out like that.

[T S O]

I definitely need to hear more from MS about that. Aside from that, that's really enough of that from me. I'll try to get some reads tomorrow.

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I tried to do it, but my brain is too tired. I'm sorry, sekai, I know we don't have much time, but I was up until 4 am last night and I just don't have the capacity to do it right now. I promise you that I will put serious time into this thing tomorrow.

(I will say that although I definitely have paranoia regarding him I'm probably naturally biased towards townreading him because he's a pretty great guy.)

[T S O]

You have no credibility as a scumhunter and we are all superior to you

This is pretty fucking hilarious. No idea if it's true, but great stuff.

[T S O]

I'm a daycop and have just investigated you.

What so everyone is a fucking cop in this game?

Actually, this reads like Kaboose is faking his reaction. He's around long enough to see this bullshit gambit played over and over again.

[T S O]

I tried to do it, but my brain is too tired. I'm sorry, sekai, I know we don't have much time, but I was up until 4 am last night and I just don't have the capacity to do it right now. I promise you that I will put serious time into this thing tomorrow.

(I will say that although I definitely have paranoia regarding him I'm probably naturally biased towards townreading him because he's a pretty great guy.)

You know we're ffery and pieguy, right?

I didn't!

[T S O]

So, I read ETL's ISO regarding sthar. I do not feel particularly sold. That's not meant to sound insulting, but there were really only a few bits that did anything for me - her analysis of the difference between his townplay and scumplay, for example.

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okay yeah I'm finished reading sthar's posts.

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I hate to give such a shit wishy-washy read, but I can see good stuff and bad stuff and I haven't really balanced it yet. But, no, I don't feel particularly enthused on a sthar vote right now.

I think a lot of stuff he's done is null - that whole thing with Firebringer's job, for example. I know he does it as town, but he can also easily do it as scum, and he has no reason not to since it's essentially a smokescreen. I thought the timing in his self-vote was a little odd. He selfvoted at 9:31, and typed another post with the unvote which came at 9:33. I just think that if a competent town player decided to selfvote because they were so demoralised, they would have thought it through a little. Even if they then decided against it, they wouldn't make that decision in a minute. Maybe if it was coming from a rash player, I would feel better about it, but that's one trait I wouldn't attribute to him. The speed at which it came makes it feel a little too calculated. Sometimes it feels like there's a lack of scumhunting in his ISO - I really hate when people use this accusation in general because so often it's to cover up a flimsy scumread, but it's true. I think normally town-sthar would be more aggressive with ETL. When I complain as town about a wagon on me I usually pick out one person, either for their awful vote or because I expect better of them. ETL fits the latter criteria pretty easily and I don't know why sthar didn't push her back when he was complaining about the wagon on him. A lot of the things he's doing are extremely safe - "I don't want to sort ETL by d1 lynch" is kinda backing off ETL and a little incongruous given that I can't remember him townreading her once this game. But it's pretty obvious he's kinda demotivated, so I can't really draw a conclusion there. I think a lot of the things ETL levelled against him are unfair - for example, where she calls his #1009 scum gloating. It's not. No-one really seems to have an articulate case on him and I'd expect some kind of kickback if he was scum from his scumpartner given that bussing is kinda anathema in a game like this. It's more like the scumteam are just content to let the hours run down and we eventually agree that he's the best lynch for today and lynch him and it's a town mislynch. I have no idea why individual players want to lynch him and I'd like to hear why given that there's a lot of static rather than real information when it comes to that.

[T S O]

That's poorly formatted and sometimes incoherent, but it was more stream-of-consciousness than anything. I know that I'm having my cake and eating it too when it comes to that read. Like I said, I need to decide whether the good outweighs the bad.

[T S O]

Quite well! And no, though I kinda hoped I would be when I saw you in the playerlist!

[T S O]

General opinion seems to be convening on you for the d1 lynch. You have any particular suspects?

[T S O]

ffery feels he doesn't look like he's legitimately scum hunting.

This is a fair point, given that I thought the same.

She thinks the whole "profiling" thing re: Firebringer looked almost like busywork and that it was a very unnatural direction to take with him. pie has her own thoughts on the "profiling", most of which she's explained already (she thinks it looks extremely similar to what he did in the Team Mafia game where he asked her a bunch of playstyle-related questions that had nothing to do with the actual game, probably in order to serve as a distraction. P-EDIT: This might not be the case anymore pending her looking through the game sthar linked and researching other games where he did this)

So this isn't really anything.

she also thinks the scum hunting sthar has done when he has scum hunted has been relatively shallow (the Kaboose case as the primary example).

I'm not sure I can count "not scumhunting" and "scumhunting shallow when scumhunting" as different points. They're not exactly similar, but they bear a lot of resemblance.

I think you're applying hindsight to this. Something that makes no sense but has advantage for scum is a good place to wagon on day1. I'm happy to admit that I was probably wrong, but I still think it was a good place to push.

no, i thought as much when it first happened, and i still think it was a poor reason for scum reading him. i think alignment regardless, he would have assumed he could push that "wisdom being different = scum wisdom" without needing to go back and check what his alignment was first. and i think it's very atypical for scum to lie about something like that, given it entirely has to do with how he plays (given enough games, i would expect you could go and find more cases similar to this where he made assumptions based around previous games without checking it first).

i fail to see why town-kaboose would necessarily *have* to check what wisdom's alignment was before pushing him, as you're insinuating here. i think you should know better than to push this kind of semantic issue on somebody without considering the possibility that he just remembered wrong or wasn't thinking correctly

I'm not really sure why this garners a scumread, to tell the truth. Even if you think it's a sloppy argument, I'd venture that he is more likely to be sloppy as town than as scum.

[T S O]

Your case seems to essentially be "not scumhunting". Which is fair enough. I just don't feel confident pushing it given that it sometimes feels when I read back like sthar's not always fully there in the game, and that is a pretty decent explanation to the lack of scumhunting. It might not be right, but it seems more likely than "not scumhunting because scum". I will admit that him not being here isn't a towntell at all, but if you're making a case for him being scum I'm not sure I can run with that.

I also think that you're smart enough to see that, so I fail to understand where your confidence in sthar-scum is coming from. It's the consensus lynch right now, which you are eagerly pushing, and I feel like it has barely any basis.

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Sthar, what's your read on Sepai?

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Also if people could post more, that would be lovely. Has Wingback even posted today?

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I haven't even read Wingback's ISO but he seems to be pretty widely townread so I guess I'll go with that for now.

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My actual reads are sthar-town (I feel he's cleared up my issues pretty indisputably), sepai-maybescum, ms-maybescum.

[T S O]

Also, definitely thinking of ETL.

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But I don't find that particularly scummy, given that if I, the person in ETL's slot, thought that ETL's case was poor-to-non-existent, it seems extremely likely he thought the same, and it follows that she's more likely to be scum who wants an easy mislynch rather than that bad as town. I also agree that my entrance is pretty town, though I would say that anyway, given that all I had to do as scum was ...nothing in order to gain a free sthar mislynch. He is also likely to townread me given that I'm essentially the only one who really wants him alive - that's an extremely town reaction. (Though again it's also what he would do as scum, so it's not indicative one way or the other, but it doesn't make him scum.)

[T S O]

I am repeatedly feeling unconvinced with this, and while being wrong isn't a scumtell, the confidence with which you approach this is. Unexplained confidence in a poor read is really not something I associate with ffery-town. I don't know pie that well.

[T S O]

I am thinking of voting MS, but I want to be fully sure that I want to on its own merits, before I do.

[T S O]

how much have you played with Sthar8?

I'm fairly sure we've played a lot together. Upwards of five games, at least. I'm not the authority on his play but it's pretty familiar to me.

I am thinking of voting MS, but I want to be fully sure that I want to on its own merits, before I do.

I don't think we'd join you on that vote today.

Why?

[T S O]

I'm so happy this day will end in a no lynch anyways.

I have absolutely no reads. I have no way to call anyone scum because there is just simply too much content. I'm not ISOing anyone when they have 250+ posts because I will get to the 10th and all the letters will merge together.

Good job scum, you've completely removed my care from the game by making it last way too long.

Would you be willing to read the last 4 or 5 pages? For me?

[T S O]

Same to you, Firebringer!

[T S O]

(I want to say here that I get really frustrated when people keep outright stonewalling what I'm saying to them and if you're town I'm aware I'm doing it, but it's not me being obtuse for the sake of it - I just consistently disagree with you.)

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but not many of the crucial parts. Firstly, I don't think it's beyond scum-MS to make a reasonably plausible case. I am fairly sure he made multiple cases in Team Mafia which were widely accepted as okay - I wanted to go quote them but he has over 1000 posts and I'm not bothered. So the case in and of itself isn't town.

I think #1063 is more likely to come from scum-MS than town-MS. I think I remember, again using meta which I am not 100% sure of, that Metal engaged this kind of forced loquaciousness as scum in TM. I remember feeling the tone being completely off and although that's deliberate, it still rubbed me the wrong way. It's the same thing here. I think the first part of #1129 is blatantly wrong, I feel that MS is easily competent enough to know that it's blatantly wrong. I don't really understand why specifically he got a free pass off you for it given that you later go on to townread him because you feel he's more likely to make more stretched points to impress you as scum? Isn't that exactly what he did?

I don't really feel the next part garners townpoints either given that I as scum would probably use the same "scumreading" methods I use as town, especially if they've worked for me in the past, because they're familiar and efficient. Is there a reason you feel MS-scum is less likely to do this? The part after that is the same - I haven't even read PV's push so I don't know if it's legitimate or not but for the same reasoning as before I don't really think MS should earn townpoints for it.

[T S O]

I also have a nagging feeling that sthar is the town counterwagon to MS-scum. MS being on the opposing wagon but sthar not, the general feeling that it'll be sthar rather than MS who goes down at deadline, and the sheer lack of fucks-to-give in the thread that I would expect coming from sthar's scumpartner if he was on the chopping board all leads me to think I'm right about this.

[T S O]

VOTE: Metal Sonic

[T S O]

I'm so happy this day will end in a no lynch anyways.

I have absolutely no reads. I have no way to call anyone scum because there is just simply too much content. I'm not ISOing anyone when they have 250+ posts because I will get to the 10th and all the letters will merge together.

Good job scum, you've completely removed my care from the game by making it last way too long.

Would you be willing to read the last 4 or 5 pages? For me?

Scratch this - all you need is the most recent three pages. Three pages isn't much to ask.

[T S O]

First off, welcome TSO.

Hiya.

How much of the thread have you read? It seems like you are aware of Metal Sonic's Polar case and I want to know how informed your view on the game is. Is your scumread on MetalSonic based entirely on content he posted since your replace in?

Really not much of the early thread at all. I've read all of sthar's ISO, all of ETL's ISO, a good few of the recent pages. My scumread on Metal Sonic is based on a few things; me not liking one or two aspects of his PV case, the way he's backing off his PV case when town-MS is confident to a fault, and the one-scum-in-two dichotomy I feel heavily between him and sthar.

Do you affirmatively believe Sthar8 is town or is it more of a "I-need-time-to-read-him" type of read? What of his responses are you reading as town as per your Post 1348?

Affirmatively believe. In my post where I laid out my issues, and reasons to townread/scumread, he was able to answer all of them pretty definitively except the lack of scumhunting, which I feel is explainable.

I prefer lynching Sonic. I think it is him and one of Sekai, Sthar8, or TSO none of whom I was able to nail a read down with lots of confidence so far.

With respect, if I am scum with Sonic, this would be a pretty marvellous bus.

[T S O]

I again feel a little strange that sthar isn't voting MS. I think that scum-sthar would definitely be voting MS at this stage, but I also think that town-sthar would be doing the same. That he's not is weird and strange and makes me think I don't know his play as well as I think I do. I still prefer MS as a lynch though.

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tso's response to my ms wall is all sorts of NOPE and i will probably need another wall to explain why; this will come after i eat

It would probably need to come soon given the lack of time we have.

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I have been avoiding this game since MS flip because I feel sickened by it.

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Half of me is saying that sthar must be scum because MS wasn't, but that's the irrational part of me which doesn't use my brain. The fact is that if he is scum he's playing the best fucking scumgame ever. If he was being as slick as usual I would be paranoid as fuck but I'm really sure that he's town. I think it's a read I'd bank the game on. And I normally never feel this about sthar when he is town.

There are too many people in this game I don't really have a read on.

[T S O]

i'd also like gun-to-the-head thoughts on who you think is scum atm if you don't think sthar is

You.

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I know. I haven't really thought about this game at all.

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I know. I haven't really thought about this game at all.

You replaced in just before deadline. You were mostly doing ISOs to figure out where to vote. You helped mislynch MS. And you didn't really think about the game at all?

Since MS's flip.

Please don't insinuate that I didn't put work into this game - I put far more work into the game than anyone else did from when I replaced until nightfall. Your stance on MS-town wasn't particularly powerful and your scumread on sthar was and is the same. Do not try to push this on me. Thanks.

[T S O]

1. any reason in particular you kept disagreeing with a lot of the ms town case because of the fakeability of his posts and no other reason?

I feel like this is being framed as a bad thing and I don't agree with that - if the reason for townreading someone is shallow, like that was, then they probably shouldn't be garnering townreads in the first place. So, yes.

also, can you link me to a town game where you've done this before?

Probably? I regularly espouse caution when it comes to townreading competent people for posts that sound good. In particular, this has happened to sthar in the past, for example. It wasn't as explicit as this game, but it's there. I'll have a look.

2. what do you make of sthar's reaction to ms's claim?

Correct. Bulletproof is a common scum claim. Sthar was right that MS was lying about it, he just wasn't right on why.

[T S O]

Your stance on MS-town wasn't particularly powerful and your scumread on sthar was and is the same. Do not try to push this on me. Thanks.

HAHA

i think tso actually is just scum

This game is probably hurtling towards a confrontation between us because I think you're scum and I can't see myself changing that view and you apparently think the same. I won't be pressing you until I'm sure of a lot of other things, but you can push ahead and make the case for me being scum if you want.

[T S O]

Can you answer what I said, though? Because I think it's the most relevant post I've made today.

[T S O]

Something that you seem to be pushing here is that MS's claim should have made people back off. If I was there I would have pulled the fucking throttle because Bulletproof is a classic safe scumclaim. Pushing "he flipped town" isn't actually germane to reactions at that time.

[T S O]

I know. I haven't really thought about this game at all.

You replaced in just before deadline. You were mostly doing ISOs to figure out where to vote. You helped mislynch MS. And you didn't really think about the game at all?

Since MS's flip.

Please don't insinuate that I didn't put work into this game - I put far more work into the game than anyone else did from when I replaced until nightfall. Your stance on MS-town wasn't particularly powerful and your scumread on sthar was and is the same. Do not try to push this on me. Thanks.

That's not what I'm insinuating. I described the ways you DID put effort into the game. If you're town, you can give yourself some slack for having to vote when not fully up to speed. Why would you be demotivated with 2 calendar days to get caught up?

I appreciate this and all, but I would have voted the same way regardless. I'm demotivated because a lot of my beliefs about this game rested on ms being scum and it means I have to put even more work into this fucking game when I already did that.

[T S O]

I can understand why you would think that, while also knowing it's not true.

Like I said, I'm not laying down a vote until I have my work done in this game, partially as a courtesy to you if you're town.

[T S O]

Can you explain why you're townreading Firebringer? I find that extremely hard to face into as an ISO.

[T S O]

Wingback - what's your read on sthar?

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My own interactions with the PV slot are minimal to non-existent, which needs to change. I was vaguely tempted to sheep some of ETL's reads a while back, but given that they're not looking very accurate that's not really an option any more.

[T S O]

Though apart from MS, everyone seemed to be set solidly on PV-town, so there's presumably a good reason for that.

[T S O]

Sthar is scum. Naked votes are scum

This makes me feel much better about sonic scum. This is not now, nor has it ever been, true.

BP is a common scumclaim.

Cop is a common town claim.

I did not read this as MS referencing a previous claim. I read this as some sort of pithy comeback to sthar's #1425. I feel kinda stupid.

[T S O]

TSO, sorry for not interacting. I'll be extremly busy the next week.

Don't be - it's as much my fault as yours. What are your timezones?

[T S O]

That lynch on Sonic was so bad, can I just say that it was horrible? Unless we get some night action results from town right now.

This is highly unlikely, seeing as Sonic was investigative and it's extremely likely Kaboose was the same. If there's a third information role then scum have a Ninja or Godfather to balance. Night actions aren't going to win the game for us.

Which we likely wont since we killed our cop, I say we do no lynch again. (Yes, I am broken record)

Scum will just kill whoever they feel looks the most town, so probably PV. It doesn't solve the issue, it just puts it back. There are many MyLo situations where NL is the correct play, but I don't feel this is.

[T S O]

Who do you think is scum, Fire?

[T S O]

I want to reply to pie in depth and I'm going to make myself do so later.

[T S O]

@ Sthar8, who are your current scumreads?

have some lingering suspicion of TSO because of ETL

With due respect, I think if ETL had been pushing you as scum, she would have done a better job. Her push basically fucking sucked. And ETL is a pretty good scumplayer. Beyond that, I'd like to think that you'd be dead if I hadn't stepped in, so I don't see the scum motivation in extending myself so strongly to lynch MS when I could just have watched you die under the guise of me not being caught up.

[T S O]

Something that you seem to be pushing here is that MS's claim should have made people back off. If I was there I would have pulled the fucking throttle because Bulletproof is a classic safe scumclaim. Pushing "he flipped town" isn't actually germane to reactions at that time.

It is a classic and MS knows it. I don't think he'd go there as scum

You have to admit that this statement is classic WIFOM - I hate the term, but it applies here. There is no way for you to know the inner workings of MS's mind on making that claim any better than me. Maybe MS thought you'd think that, so that's why he claimed it.

which is why I (ffery) thought his crumbed reach-out to me, and eventual 2nd claim looked like it was coming from town.

I don't know what crumbed reach-out you're talking about, but I did not read the Cop post as a claim. I know I should have, because MS had already claimed Cop and I did know that but it was in the back of my mind when I was reading it. But I didn't. And that was a misplay, but in reality I would not have drawn back short of an Innocent Child claim because I was very certain MS was scum.

The main thing that squicked me about you was you sthar8 read.

I find this hard to believe given that it's my most solid and most backed-up read.

I had a very cautious nullish-townish read of ETL by the time she replaced out. I was at once reassured about my sthar8 read by her agreements and additional points about him, and concerned she was snowing us. Players who could be considered easy mislynches were town-looking for various reasons Kaboose due to how he claimed, firebringer due to meta, Wingback due to assertive-town looking play. If she was scum, she pretty much

had

to have her partner in her scumpile. And she was in a good position to call sthar8 scum and nonetheless vote MS and worry about day 2 on day 2.

I can't really deny that this is theoretically true. But it isn't what actually happened.

MS would have made the majority of the case as either alignment, but certain parts of it were actually spot-on. And the things that

were

spot-on were things that I would very reasonably expect him to push as town, and things that, while it might not make sense from an outside POV, I can tell he would have picked up on because I picked up on the same fucking things (snowstorm's posts as the primary example). And he factored it into his play in a way that I would very reasonably expect him to do as town, whereas it didn't look like how he pushes reads as scum.

Yes, it didn't make sense from an outside POV. There are things you're saying here about relationships with MS, and extensive experience, and none of this was ever really brought up or clarified, short of me knowing you had played one game together fairly recently.

In fact, I think the reasoning you were using stood out as exceptionally shallow. You essentially used the fact that MS is capable of faking decent cases as scum as an excuse to handwave everything he actually said. Nothing there took into account the relationship between MS and me, or what MS actually does in most of his town vs. scum games and how that plays into what he did here, and you essentially entirely ignored the possibility that, perhaps, what we were seeing was just a result of MS

as town

genuinely wanting me to see him as town rather than it necessarily making him scum.

I admit I am not a MS alignment-reading grandmaster. But what you expect me to pick up here is literally fucking crazy. I do not follow the relationships between two random players on MS. It has been probably a year since I played with you. I observed MS skate by in Team Mafia until he was essentially lynched by PoE, and maybe I was a little too paranoid of that. But I had about 2 days to stop sthar getting lynched and find a scum suspect. I am not an MS meta master, nor an MS relationship master. If I had two weeks it is unlikely I would have picked up on these things. And it's irrational and unfair of you to expect I would. The only thing I feel holds water is your last point. I did essentially ignore it. I decided MS was scum and didn't really want to think about the ramifications which that last possibility would entail. And I was wrong. I do occasionally get things wrong.

And when I pointed out that you were just wrong about part of what MS was saying not making any sense, you still haven't acknowledged it.

When did you do this?

The alternative explanation here is that you are actually arrogant enough to think that your read on MS is the end-all-be-all of MS reads, and that anyone who disagrees with you is dumb and/or scum for doing so - despite not only being flat-out wrong, but not even being able to point out why what they're saying is incorrect in the first place.

I don't think I've ever lacked in arrogance. Maybe I'm just conditioned from people disagreeing with me tending to be dumb or scum constantly. I admit that, if you're town, you were right and I was wrong. But I disagree that I wasn't able to point out what you're saying didn't apply. You didn't convince me that your interpretation was the most likely because it basically came down to "I know MS would do this" and there was no why. And you never explained your track record with MS. And the proof is that five people voted MS. Your towncase clearly didn't seem that strong when that happened.

And I don't think this is the case. I happen to think that, if you're town, the obvious conclusion here is simply that you can't read MS for shit.

I am sorry that I misread MS with about 2 days to make the choice when I don't even play with him very often. I apologise for this transgression, and will outsource all of my scumhunting to you, the King of Scumhuntingville, in the future.

I get that you're pissed that MS flipped town. But can you stop fucking shoving it in my face? Because it does absolutely nothing except make my blood boil.

I think any reasonable town player, upon seeing people with a lot more experience with MS than them say MS was more likely town and have it be demonstrated to be correct, would be able to acknowledge as much.

I thought that the relationship between you was a little unnatural. Maybe this was due to the relationship you shared, but I thought it was due to you being scum together. This is not an unfair thought, given that I have likely played with sthar more than you have with MS, and you are questioning my townread on him. This is a mirror reflection of the events of yesterday.

And I sure as hell don't think any reasonable town player's reaction to finding out they were wrong about MS would be to claim the person in this playerlist who actually has MS experience, and correctly called his alignment, had to be scum for it.

This entire dialogue with you, from my end, is to try to discern just how legitimate your read on MS is.

On the other hand, the way you're reacting here is just about how scum would likely react in this scenario: they wouldn't be able to backpedal and go "o wait, my logic here was wrong. tee hee" because it'd become obvious they were pushing through a lynch on faulty reasoning and it'd make them look like obvious scum as a result.

I feel this is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of argument, where you would harass me for my stance no matter what one I took. I have taken the stance you describe here as scum in the past. I think I did it in AAA, where I was scum and ffery was town.

So, if you're going to attempt to say shit that is blatantly wrong as opposed to actually listening to other people, you can fuck right off. If you're town, you should rethink your stance that it must be absolutely impossible we just happened to see something in MS' play you weren't seeing.

Again, this is exactly what I'm looking at.

I thought the progression from crumbing bulletproof, to faking a cop claim in order to look like he wanted to draw a NK, was significantly more town than not. Sure, bulletproof is a common scum claim, and scum are more than capable of crumbing it in advance. But scum who claim it most assuredly do not go about it in the way MS did (by faking a cop and flipping their claim around a billion times). Moreover, MS has a history of gambiting and fake claiming as town, and sthar had outright acknowledged in a previous post (1338) that it was at least town-motivated. A town player in this situation should have seen the BP claim/crumb and realized that it made perfect sense given MS's play. sthar's reaction to it, on the other hand, was terrible because rather than taking this into account, he flat-out ignored it and handwaved it as "lol, BP claim = scum claim". It was an entirely specious argument.

I would bet that MS also has a history of gambitting and fakeclaiming as scum. At that time, sthar's reaction was very similar to mine. Maybe you can make the argument that he was more involved in the Cop claim scenario, so should have known better, but I also knew and it still didn't occur to me at the time.

I also thought his reaction at the end was more town than not in a general level. Rather than attempting to antagonize anyone, he simply pointed out who the scum on his wagon were. It is fairly obvious to see this if you look past the tone of his posts, and it's a town reaction.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this interpretation.

Probably? I regularly espouse caution when it comes to townreading competent people for posts that sound good. In particular, this has happened to sthar in the past, for example. It wasn't as explicit as this game, but it's there. I'll have a look.

I'm looking forward to seeing this. Because you were blatantly wrong about MS here, and I'm fairly sure it will be telling to see if/how you've pushed reads in a similar way to the way you pushed this one.

I will look for this, but it's a lot harder to do than I thought because it basically involves reading my own town ISO's painstakingly, game after game.

This would be a lot more reasonable if you were pushing that I was attempting to let the MS lynch go through while sort-of token opposing it so that I'd look good off it (I should have defended him a lot harder and wasn't able to because I didn't sit down and actually take a good look at his posts until it was too late). But that's not what you're doing (? correct me if I'm wrong on this), you're explicitly saying my town case on MS didn't make any sense.

Actually, what I was pushing was that you were "attempting to let the MS lynch go through while sort-of token opposing it", and that your token opposition

was

the MS-town case, which I felt was extremely open to perspective, more so than anything else in the game.

[T S O]

Yes, but everyone else has, and there's presumably a good reason for that. I won't get shot, sthar won't, Fire won't, sekai very likely won't. It's essentially you or Wingback.

[T S O]

Well, I definitely agree about the former. I was outrightly atrocious there due to just not playing the game. The latter was a little different - I had done a reasonable amount of good stuff despite a busy schedule irl before I completely lost Internet for 2 weeks and I couldn't play. I basically got speedlynched on my return. But I don't hold that against you - I mislynch people all the time as town and while I regret the action, mistakes happen.

[T S O]

I think me having spare time tends to equate to better play - I just can't find it in me to put hard work in when I'm busy.

[T S O]

Incisive stuff.

[T S O]

I'm trying to read this game objectively but I am at the bottom of an incredibly low spiral. I never get like this about Mafia, but I feel a little bit like crying about this game, and I haven't cried in years.

[T S O]

I think there's a lot of things, pie's read being one of the main ones, but it's been happening a little more often lately when I play Mafia and I don't know why. I'm not sure if it's brought on by Mafia or not and right now I'm really not trying to work it out. Me posting onsite when I'm like this is a very poor idea.

[T S O]

I shouldn't be here, but it is worth saying - sthar makes a point. It's alright to say "we do dissonance as town" but for me, there's no real sense of you two posting in a PT trying to resolve reads, though my frustration is potentially blinding me here.

[T S O]

Sekai if you are scum going to be so mad post game lol.
I mean, you got me fooled.

Can you sum this read up at all? I am interested in why specifically you are townreading her.

[T S O]

Well, yeah, but in fairness TSO/Wingback isn't a likely team at all. Also, at least one scum is probably on the sthar wagon.

[T S O]

I'm talking about your read on me, to tell the truth. Pie keeps including these addendums like "if you're town you need to realise this" (WHICH BASICALLY MEANS IF YOU'RE TOWN YOU HAVE TO AGREE WITH ME), while you seem to think I'm town with your comment about scumhunting. What gives?

[T S O]

So sthar not being hammered strongly suggests either he is scum or someone on his wagon is. I reject the former, so the latter must be true.

[T S O]

Spoiler: outside of game

I'm still trying to hang on for TSO and because I don't replace out, but I'm emotionally pretty checked out.

Please don't do this for me. Seriously. You don't have to. I mean that.

TSO, message me if you need to talk. Seriously.

I will. But - and I mean this completely seriously - you have it far worse than I do. Mine is both momentary and rare. It's incredibly mild.

[T S O]

Pie - no offense taken. There was nothing wrong with what you said, it was just frustration and annoyance boiling over.

[T S O]

VOTE: Firebringer

[T S O]

Completely fruitless vote, but whatever. His vote on me was bad, his vote on sthar was bad, he's used being townread because he's bad as an excuse to do nothing all day. His push to end the day quickly is also terrible. At least one of him and sekai is scum. And I feel it's more likely to be him.

[T S O]

Wingback, I think I know who you are.

If you are who I think, then you are scum in this game.

There. I said it.

Not leaving that unsaid if this goes to a day 3.

Why don't you actually say it, then?

Always set the bar low.
You can only match it or go beyond!

Its like with life, if you constantly set yourself up for high expectations you can only get disapointed.

Is this real life?

'More Experienced' = Boring! lol, naah WingBack I like your analysis just think you overthink stuff. Sometimes you just gotta pick someone and YOLO it.

[T S O]

Firebringer is strongly townread by at least two players, so getting a lynch there isn't actually viable. This vote is more to point out that I won't be a part of the sthar mislynch.

[T S O]

Sekai if you are scum going to be so mad post game lol.
I mean, you got me fooled.

Can you sum this read up at all? I am interested in why specifically you are townreading her.

@TSO sekai or fferyllt is playing like was in divine comedy:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=62627
As far as I can tell. I don't like using meta all the time, but I am also just feeling town from the slot.

I would point out how tenuous this actually is as a read that he's willing to bet the game on but it won't change anything.

[T S O]

Can someone actually make a case on sthar and set it down in writing? I would like to see it very much.

[T S O]

Nobody has any intention whatsoever of changing their minds. None.

[T S O]

#1581 is an extremely rudimentary case.

I think the problem with weaker players is that it's very easy to replicate their towngame as scum since nothing is actually expected of them in it.

[T S O]

I mean ffs you're demanding more words be written about sthar8 when your basis for your vote is two quotes and a disdainful sniff.

Yes. Firebringer is not a competing wagon today since he will not only never get four votes, he won't even get three. I think it's fair that, before you lynch sthar, you make a compelling case at the very least.

[T S O]

Nobody has any intention whatsoever of changing their minds. None.

I didn't expect to change my mind about metal sonic.

And you didn't. Which backs up what I'm saying.

[T S O]

Nobody has any intention whatsoever of changing their minds. None.

I didn't expect to change my mind about metal sonic.

And you didn't. Which backs up what I'm saying.

No, I did. We both did. We both flipped from scumreading him to townreading him. Which backs up that you haven't read the game.

Brilliant contradiction. Your Honor, please end this farce.

[T S O]

I get that you're likely just doing your job as scum and I admire that but god it fucking kills me to watch everyone dance like a puppet on your strings.

[T S O]

It's in my ISO, the entire evolution.

Which backs up that you haven't read the game.

[T S O]

Spoiler: outside of game

I'm still trying to hang on for TSO and because I don't replace out, but I'm emotionally pretty checked out.

Please don't do this for me. Seriously. You don't have to. I mean that.

I have replaced out twice ever in 7 years. I can endure a shitty MYLO.

It is shitty, isn't it?

TSO, message me if you need to talk. Seriously.

I will. But - and I mean this completely seriously - you have it far worse than I do. Mine is both momentary and rare. It's incredibly mild.

All pain is temporary. That doesn't mean talking about it can't be helpful.

I agree, but it's really not worth talking about. Trust me, I'd know if it was. I'm not too proud to know that. And me talking to you about these thing is just silly given how easy I have it compared to you. I'm not saying that sentence for the sake of it.

[T S O]

Spoiler: nothing substantial

So, I read ETL's ISO regarding sthar. I do not feel particularly sold. That's not meant to sound insulting, but there were really only a few bits that did anything for me - her analysis of the difference between his townplay and scumplay, for example.

okay yeah I'm finished reading sthar's posts.

I hate to give such a shit wishy-washy read, but I can see good stuff and bad stuff and I haven't really balanced it yet. But, no, I don't feel particularly enthused on a sthar vote right now.

I think a lot of stuff he's done is null - that whole thing with Firebringer's job, for example. I know he does it as town, but he can also easily do it as scum, and he has no reason not to since it's essentially a smokescreen. I thought the timing in his self-vote was a little odd. He selfvoted at 9:31, and typed another post with the unvote which came at 9:33. I just think that if a competent town player decided to selfvote because they were so demoralised, they would have thought it through a little. Even if they then decided against it, they wouldn't make that decision in a minute. Maybe if it was coming from a rash player, I would feel better about it, but that's one trait I wouldn't attribute to him. The speed at which it came makes it feel a little too calculated. Sometimes it feels like there's a lack of scumhunting in his ISO - I really hate when people use this accusation in general because so often it's to cover up a flimsy scumread, but it's true. I think normally town-sthar would be more aggressive with ETL. When I complain as town about a wagon on me I usually pick out one person, either for their awful vote or because I expect better of them. ETL fits the latter criteria pretty easily and I don't know why sthar didn't push her back when he was complaining about the wagon on him. A lot of the things he's doing are extremely safe - "I don't want to sort ETL by d1 lynch" is kinda backing off ETL and a little incongruous given that I can't remember him townreading her once this game. But it's pretty obvious he's kinda demotivated, so I can't really draw a conclusion there. I think a lot of the things ETL levelled against him are unfair - for example, where she calls his #1009 scum gloating. It's not. No-one really seems to have an articulate case on him and I'd expect some kind of kickback if he was scum from his scumpartner given that bussing is kinda anathema in a game like this. It's more like the scumteam are just content to let the hours run down and we eventually agree that he's the best lynch for today and lynch him and it's a town mislynch. I have no idea why individual players want to lynch him and I'd like to hear why given that there's a lot of static rather than real information when it comes to that.

ffery feels he doesn't look like he's legitimately scum hunting.

This is a fair point, given that I thought the same.

She thinks the whole "profiling" thing re: Firebringer looked almost like busywork and that it was a very unnatural direction to take with him. pie has her own thoughts on the "profiling", most of which she's explained already (she thinks it looks extremely similar to what he did in the Team Mafia game where he asked her a bunch of playstyle-related questions that had nothing to do with the actual game, probably in order to serve as a distraction. P-EDIT: This might not be the case anymore pending her looking through the game sthar linked and researching other games where he did this)

So this isn't really anything.

she also thinks the scum hunting sthar has done when he has scum hunted has been relatively shallow (the Kaboose case as the primary example).

I'm not sure I can count "not scumhunting" and "scumhunting shallow when scumhunting" as different points. They're not exactly similar, but they bear a lot of resemblance.

I think you're applying hindsight to this. Something that makes no sense but has advantage for scum is a good place to wagon on day1. I'm happy to admit that I was probably wrong, but I still think it was a good place to push.

no, i thought as much when it first happened, and i still think it was a poor reason for scum reading him. i think alignment regardless, he would have assumed he could push that "wisdom being different = scum wisdom" without needing to go back and check what his alignment was first. and i think it's very atypical for scum to lie about something like that, given it entirely has to do with how he plays (given enough games, i would expect you could go and find more cases similar to this where he made assumptions based around previous games without checking it first).

i fail to see why town-kaboose would necessarily *have* to check what wisdom's alignment was before pushing him, as you're insinuating here. i think you should know better than to push this kind of semantic issue on somebody without considering the possibility that he just remembered wrong or wasn't thinking correctly

I'm not really sure why this garners a scumread, to tell the truth. Even if you think it's a sloppy argument, I'd venture that he is more likely to be sloppy as town than as scum.

Your case seems to essentially be "not scumhunting". Which is fair enough. I just don't feel confident pushing it given that it sometimes feels when I read back like sthar's not always fully there in the game, and that is a pretty decent explanation to the lack of scumhunting. It might not be right, but it seems more likely than "not scumhunting because scum". I will admit that him not being here isn't a towntell at all, but if you're making a case for him being scum I'm not sure I can run with that.

I also think that you're smart enough to see that, so I fail to understand where your confidence in sthar-scum is coming from. It's the consensus lynch right now, which you are eagerly pushing, and I feel like it has barely any basis.

My actual reads are sthar-town (I feel he's cleared up my issues pretty indisputably), sepai-maybescum, ms-maybescum.

But I don't find that particularly scummy, given that if I, the person in ETL's slot, thought that ETL's case was poor-to-non-existent, it seems extremely likely he thought the same, and it follows that she's more likely to be scum who wants an easy mislynch rather than that bad as town. I also agree that my entrance is pretty town, though I would say that anyway, given that all I had to do as scum was ...nothing in order to gain a free sthar mislynch. He is also likely to townread me given that I'm essentially the only one who really wants him alive - that's an extremely town reaction. (Though again it's also what he would do as scum, so it's not indicative one way or the other, but it doesn't make him scum.)

how much have you played with Sthar8?

I'm fairly sure we've played a lot together. Upwards of five games, at least. I'm not the authority on his play but it's pretty familiar to me.

I am thinking of voting MS, but I want to be fully sure that I want to on its own merits, before I do.

I don't think we'd join you on that vote today.

Why?

[T S O]

I will bet any credibility I have that what I have quoted is a far better towncase than the scumcase you will make.

[T S O]

"None of it resonates" is the most bullshit way ever of saying "I don't like this so I'm going to choose to not take it on board."

[T S O]

I also liked how you went from "you haven't said anything" to "okay you've said loads but it doesn't resonate bye".

[T S O]

I have no idea why I am trying to engage a scumread on the subject of a towncase on a player that they themselves has pushed all game.

[T S O]

That will probably take a while, so I'm going to do it tomorrow.

[T S O]

My awful horrible ISP switched our Internet deal without telling us. Extremely limited access until Tues. Apologies.

[T S O]

Fun times!

[T S O]

The game was difficult because Firebringer and PV were extremely hard to push as scum at all, and we had to kill Kaboose n1. If we had lynched sthar d1, as it seemed to be going, then I think we would likely have been incriminated somehow and lost.

[T S O]

I just wanted to make a point; at the time where I said I felt extremely down about the game, I legitimately felt terrible. This was not a ploy of any sort, and if anyone was under the impression it was then they are completely, 100% wrong.

[T S O]

Who did Polar jail? Me?

[T S O]

ETL provided a reasonably legitimate answer, so it became a non-issue, Iecerint.