Micro 553: ETL's Double Day Unlimited (Game Over)

[Wickedestjr]

/confirm!

[Wickedestjr]

Kublai, it's been a while!

I can promise you that if you claim miller again, I will not fall for it a second time. (You've probably heard that a few dozen times).

[Wickedestjr]

/confirm

24 hours

[Wickedestjr]

Well I was

going

to vote Tere for being chaotic neutral at worst, but

she's at L-1 right now

!

RC is also at L-1

.

Vote: Kublai Khan

(L-2) for quietly putting two players at L-1 without acknowledging the L-1. I seriously almost hammered someone.

Also,

Vote: TellTaleHeart

(L-2) because she cannot be trusted.

[Wickedestjr]

Tere is at L-1 again.

Personally, I think two or three votes should be the absolute max. Even three might be too much if it means everyone is at L-2...

[Wickedestjr]

Tere, how much prior experience with RC do you have? Was he scum or town?

[Wickedestjr]

Also,

Vote: TellTaleHeart

(L-2) because she cannot be trusted.

I challenge you to a duel.

Take your weapon:

Spoiler:

Ready... set... GO!

Spoiler:

[Wickedestjr]

I meant I am not 100% sure of if it means they are scum, but the reasoning is something blatant. Would you say we need to wait or continue onward?,

If you're not 100% sure of it meaning RC is scum, then why would you want to lynch him right now? Not sure how you can be uncertain about reasoning that's blatant...

How do you plan on making this decision? How will you determine if RC is scum or not?

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: Also, Lhix, why are you voting ConMan?

[Wickedestjr]

[Wickedestjr]

I hope when you find out that my slot was town you reconsider your horrible attitude towards me having any fun whatsoever.

This replace out post gives me a bad feeling.

1. Unnecessary mention of his own alignment - scum are supposed to have fun too, no? Why is this complaint specific to RC having a town role?
2. He was voting Kublai, but makes the assumption that Kublai is town in this post by saying "when you find out" as if Kublai doesn't know already.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm not playing with someone who dismissed my attempt to be friendly as "like me because I'm so likeable fluff".

That's an invitation to several weeks of hell.

Thanks for the game everyone else!

Understandable frustration, but replacing out altogether seems like an extreme response that inconveniences the Mod. Hey, at least you didn't wait until page 50 though!

Perhaps we'll meet again someday.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm pretty sure Jestr is scum based off of the rapid change of tone between his posts, if he was scum I'd expect him to have reacted more uniformly.

I'll fill in the blanks more later.

Please, fill in the blanks, because this makes absolutely no sense to me. You say that my tone changed rapidly, but I don't see any tonal change - there was no emotion or attitude from me in either post, just addressing things that I found strange/disagreeable. Nothing variable about my response to you.

This is a really weird/vague/garbage reason for you to feel

pretty sure

that I am scum. Are you actually 'pretty sure', or do you just like to exaggerate? If you feel that you have a legitimate point against me, then I'm also not sure why you haven't filled in the blanks yet.

Contrary to what you seem to think I got a ton of alignment indicative information from my friendly-mode opener, particularly on Tere who I now consider highly likely to be town.

Can you explain this too?

[Wickedestjr]

I think most of Wicked's activity thus far has been very "look busy." Micromanaging the vote count (Post 84) is a good example of this.

If I was scum in this game, I wouldn't have made that post with the mindset "this will make people townread me", I would have made that post with the mindset "this is what I would do as town". You are attacking me for my play style. I want to win and I believe that a page 5 mis-lynch is a huge disadvantage for town, so yeah, I'm going to try to prevent it and I can show you other games where I have had to provide the parental/IC voice. Just in my last few completed games, I have seen a premature day 1 lynch, a very premature VT claim,

and

a town that accidentally let a day 1 no-lynch occur. So my confidence in others is low and, given the recent blunder, I am now certain that my L-1 warnings were necessary.

The one push he has made on Radiant (Post 97) is pretty awful. The replace out was very obviously emotionally driven and addressing the differences in playstyle and Wicked crams that into this "scumslip-y" case on a soft target that's easy to shove.

First of all, I never said RC's post was a scum-slip. If you read my post more than once, you'll note that it simply "gave me a bad feeling" and I didn't cast a vote for him.

I am fully aware that it was an emotional situation, but I don't think emotion explains either of my points.

[Wickedestjr]

Now we know for sure Con is town

I would 100% agree. I wont give Con a full town pass, but I am leaning town for him because of the flip.

Why the change?

Also, you ignored 87 and 88.

And why are you voting me?

[Wickedestjr]

Now we know for sure Con is town

I would 100% agree. I wont give Con a full town pass, but I am leaning town for him because of the flip.

Why the change?

I am voting because judging by the chat going around, you are the likely candidate up for grabs, and I wish to not only pressure but avoid being in a position to hammer again. (As I think that mightve been a brash choice)

Vote: TheLhix

, this is really horrible.

If you're town, you need to figure things out for yourself. The people that you're following are wrong and your easy piggybacking makes you incredibly useless right now. What are you doing to determine my (or anyone's for that matter) alignment? Do you care? Do you even know why I'm getting votes? Why am I the first person to vote for you?

[Wickedestjr]

RC, I asked you a question, you must have missed it;

Contrary to what you seem to think I got a ton of alignment indicative information from my friendly-mode opener, particularly on Tere who I now consider highly likely to be town.

Can you explain this?

[Wickedestjr]

He's so fucking formal and rote and not fluid about it and it's fake as hell.

If you were to meta me, you'd see that this is how I always talk. This is probably the fourth or fifth time that I've been voted for my posting style (I have even encountered someone who was incorrectly

certain

that I was scum for my posting style). This is the way I speak and if you think I'm foolish enough to adopt a completely unique posting style as scum, then you are too ignorant.

Like, he makes a logical point. There's a logical sequence to follow.

But there's no feeling and no effort to directly tie it to the game.

Like, town in that situation would be all casting

Jestr's listing off things that I'm doing / have done that can be construed as scummy but he doesn't really tie it all together, doesn't put a bow up on it and finalize it.

He just lists scummy things about me and calls it a day because there isn't that extra step of him being town and thinking that I'm scum that brings it all together into his thought process.

Your post bothered me enough that I wasn't going to ignore it (I shouldn't ignore posts that bother me, should I?) but it also wasn't strong enough for me put you at L-1. I never even said that I'm scum reading you for it - I'm not leaning either way right now.

You are calling me scum for lack of feeling/effort/bow/finalization when I "saw something strange" on page 5. That's a lot of vague jargon that only reinforces your claim that you can't put this read into words. And unfortunately, I'm a cautious/slow player, so you've already set your expectations too high if you want me finalizing anything at this stage of the game. But thanks for trying...

You are also ignoring the context of my post: you had just replaced out. So my post wasn't written as a case against you for you to respond to (I thought you were out of the game at that point), it was written as points for everyone else to think about - I was curious if anyone else found it interesting.

When I first started playing on this site, I was less emotionally mature, I was easily angered by players that couldn’t see my perspective, and I occasionally demonstrated that anger in my posts. But this is a game and I came to realize that I don’t enjoy playing that way (and people don’t enjoy playing with me that way). So that is why I try to be calm and avoid showing too much feeling. I think I’ve done a pretty good job of it throughout the last three or four years and you’ll see the exact same posting style if you look at my recent games (as either alignment).

You say that you can’t see anything going on beneath the surface and no deeper thought, but 1. I don’t think I

ever

demonstrate what I’m thinking behind the scenes - if I’m not explicitly saying something, it’s

because

I don’t want to share it. 2. Be specific: what more should I have said in response to your replace out post to demonstrate deeper thought?

Final point. Originally, you said the problem was a rapid tone change, but your recent explanation has absolutely nothing to do with a “tone change”. So I’m not sure why you want to scum read me right now.

[Wickedestjr]

TTH

, correct me if I’m wrong, but right now it looks like you’re scum reading me because you disagree with my points against RC. Is that really strong enough reason for a vote? We’re different players with different thoughts and opinions - that is a guarantee.

I get what you're saying. It's a scum move to point at evidence and note the weirdness of it, but then let a town snap the final piece in place, lead the lynch mob, and ultimately suffer the blame/morale-blow. Like a responsibility-dodge.

Can you explain this in more detail? I'm not sure what you're talking about.

The lack of serious follow though feels like he's testing the waters.

I didn’t need a serious follow through. I was just pointing something out that I thought was unusual and RC never defended himself (so how would I follow through even if it

was

something that

seriously

bothered me?). Testing the waters is exactly what I was doing, I thought RC was gone, so I was only curious if anyone else read it the same way that I did.

[Wickedestjr]

I could have voted literally anyone and that response would be just as relevant.

If you're town, why did you even sign up for this game?

[Wickedestjr]

The "motherf-ing flip" happened before both of those posts. So it couldn't have been the reason for your change.

[Wickedestjr]

This seems almost like a blatant attempt to remove pressure from yourself and fade away. It
reinforces the already spoken ideas.

Also, nobody is voting me for trying to remove pressure and fade away, so no, this doesn't reinforce anything.

[Wickedestjr]

that makes no fucking sense. The reason I am leaning for con (and still sticking with it) is because Kaboose was flipped as town. I wrote several entries on it, and saying it was "before those posts so it doesnt make sense" Its called actions and results influence opinion and though. It tends to be the case in reality.

It makes no f-ing sense, because you're not even reading my posts. I'm not questioning you for having a town read on Con, I'm wondering why you said you "knew for sure" he was town and then weakened to "leaning town".

Also, about my post of it reinforcing your seeming scumminess. I mean it looked like a blatant attempt to avoid the criticism given to you by removing the pressure, sure you explained the vote but what does that make of trying to remove the pressure? Your argument against me was only that I "need to get my shit together"

I haven't avoided criticism - see 175 and 176, lots of explanation as to why the points against me are bad.

Trying to remove pressure from myself is not a scum tell because it's bad for me to get lynched as town too. Trying to survive is a common trait to both alignments. As town, I need to vote for the people that I suspect, that is what I am doing, and you have no reason to think otherwise.

You "needing to get your s*** together" is actually a pretty good reason to vote you. I think, even given your inexperience, you'd be playing better than this if you were town.

[Wickedestjr]

Also, the lack of your serious follow through plus this, makes it look like you are going to safe, not productive.

This makes absolutely no sense. Do you think about or reread your posts before you hit submit?

[Wickedestjr]

Are you from Epic Mafia? Because you were very quick to hammer Kaboose. Usually on Mafiascum we spend about a week or two deciding who to lynch each day. With the time/ability to have thorough arguments, it is important to make the most of the time that we are given. Your quick hammer wasted a lot of potential for meaningful discussion.

[Wickedestjr]

The people you followed yesterday were wrong about Kaboose. Mis-lynches happen frequently, scum only make up a small 25% of this town. Aren't you worried that the people you're following today could be wrong about me?

Why aren't you asking me questions to try and figure out my alignment?

[Wickedestjr]

I wasn't trying to be mean (although I'm sure he'll respond in an aggressive/coarse manner

anyway

). But if he's accustomed to the EM style, then that could explain the issues I have with him here and he has to adjust if he wants to play anywhere other than the blitz forum.

I signed up for a regular, nine person, balanced game, not an EM, eight person, unbalanced game.

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote: TheLhix

I can see that you're probably town, now.

1. You should stop getting angry about your posts not being read and should, instead, realize that I'm not the only person that struggles to read your posts. Iirc, RC and TTH (the people you're voting with) have both shown that they don't understand everything you say. I'm reading all of your posts, I never skip anything, but your posts don't make sense to me and it really doesn't look like you are answering all of my questions.

2. My goal in this game is not to save myself, but it

is

my goal to vote for the people that I suspect. I suspect you, so I voted you. That's all there is to it.

3. My reasons for voting you were;
-You are voting me just because others are suspecting me. I think you need to be more independent in this game if you are town.
-I'm not sure you even know what the case against me is, because you haven't really talked about it.
-I simply haven't gotten the impression that you are really trying to figure things out. Maybe you are, but I'm having trouble seeing it.

4. You get mad at me for not making an argument, but I at least implied why I was voting you. On the other hand, I don't feel like you have made an argument against me. So how am I supposed to feel about that? I'm not trying to belittle you, I'm really not, I'm just a little bit frustrated because you are voting me without giving reasons why. I haven't felt like you've given me a chance.

[Wickedestjr]

*suspected you, so I voted you.

[Wickedestjr]

I haven't heard of perC. How can I find it?

[Wickedestjr]

Can one or two people please read my exchange with TheLhix and tell me that I'm not being a jerk?

Because I'm really really really not trying to be a jerk, so TheLhix's frustrated response is making me feel like garbage right now. Perhaps I'm unaware of how my posts come across, and I would like to know if that is the case, but I'm making an effort to be civil.

TheLhix

, I'm sorry if my posts offended you, I can promise you that that was not the intention. I was just frustrated because it didn't feel like you were giving me a fair shot. I think there has been a misunderstanding from both of us.

[Wickedestjr]

I feel pretty comfortable with TheLhix being town right now, so I don't know who I want to vote at this point.

I will determine that tomorrow or Saturday, tonight has been enough mafia for me.

[Wickedestjr]

Well, "testing the waters" is what I call it when scum point out something oddly-worded to see if it's potentially mislynch-worthy.

Even on day 1, a single 'weird post' isn't enough to warrant a lynch and I am fully aware of that. You have no reason to think I'm scum wondering if something's mis-lynch worthy rather than town simply interested in the feedback of others.

If you think it's a scumslip, then say so and put a vote. Cushioning it with "bad feeling" feels... calculated.

Several problems with this;
-I didn't say it was a scum slip.
-As either alignment, I have a tendency to voice my "bad feelings". It's something you'll have to get used to if you're town.
-When I first talked about the replace-out post, I thought he was gone. I don't want to vote for somebody that is being replaced, I don't want to vote somebody that's at L-1, the post wasn't enough reason for me to vote for him (L-1 aside).

[Wickedestjr]

Also, I wanna apologize to wicked for the brash aggression

Thank you Lhix

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked wasn't even apart of the speed lynch why are you all lynching him?

While I fully endorse you town reading and agree that this question needs a better answer, why does my lack of a vote on the speed lynch make me a bad target right now?

[Wickedestjr]

Lhix, I don't think there is any evidence or reasoning pointing towards it.

1. As town, I win if all scum are eliminated.
2. In order to eliminate scum, I have to vote for the people that I suspect to be scum.
3. I suspected that you were scum, so I voted for you.
4. I'm not at a significant risk of getting lynched right now. Yes, I am at L-2 right now, but we still have a lot of time left in this day and I think I've explained why the points against me are wrong.
5. When I am scum, I don't cast votes to save myself, I cast votes to look like I am scum hunting. Either way, this instance of voting is not a survival tactic.
6. If I wanted to save myself, then it would have been better to vote for TTH, who already had a vote. If my sole intention was survival, then I wouldn't want to vote for a player that has no votes like yourself.

Which of these statements do you disagree/have issue with?

If I had voted for someone else like ProHawk, would you have considered that a survival vote?

If you aren't satisfied with this explanation, then you'll just have to ask me questions and watch how I play to see that I actually

am

town.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked wasn't even apart of the speed lynch why are you all lynching him?

While I fully endorse you town reading and agree that this question needs a better answer, why does my lack of a vote on the speed lynch make me a bad target right now?

Its in scums best interest to speed the game along?

True, but that doesn't mean the people off the lynch wagon are all town.

There's only one player that can be blamed for the speed lynch and I now think that he is town...

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: Kublai

Why are you voting Lhix?

ConMan

, why are

you

voting TTH?

[Wickedestjr]

Lhix, your un-vote wasn't counted because you didn't specify who you were un-voting. See top of post 241.

[Wickedestjr]

V/LA from 11/29 to 12/01

I will try to post, but I've got a lot going on during those days and may not be able to.

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: ConManMick

I also never mentioned anything about white knighting but TTH pointed it out as a reason I might be voting, which I thought was also interesting.

Interesting in what way?

Also FWIW, I still don't like the "two black sheep" logic for my being town.

What is your reason for saying this? Also, what is your read on Lhix?

[Wickedestjr]

Also, ConMan, why did you wait so long to call her out for her post 53?

[Wickedestjr]

TTH

, correct me if I’m wrong, but right now it looks like you’re scum reading me because you disagree with my points against RC. Is that really strong enough reason for a vote? We’re different players with different thoughts and opinions - that is a guarantee.

[Wickedestjr]

OK, so, I'm back from Cologne but I've spent today puking up, I am in Manchester tomorrow and Thursday, normal V/LA Friday to Monday and next week I am in London with limited access again because a good friend has just left her husband and I need to support her. I'm officially declaring eaten by real life. Sorry guys, but I just don't have the spoons for this game.

ETL, please replace me

Sorry to hear that Tere

[Wickedestjr]

Welcome Antihero and Papa Zito!

Papa Zito, it's been a while, you were in my very first game on this site.

[Wickedestjr]

ConMan is at L-1 right now.

ConMan, please answer these questions;

I also never mentioned anything about white knighting but TTH pointed it out as a reason I might be voting, which I thought was also interesting.

Interesting in what way?

Also FWIW, I still don't like the "two black sheep" logic for my being town.

What is your reason for saying this? Also, what is your read on Lhix?

Also, ConMan, why did you wait so long to call her out for her post 53?

[Wickedestjr]

RC and/or PZ, can either of you explain your town read on Kublai?


Something about his seriousness pre-replacement felt unnatural to me. I also didn't like his vote for Lhix. He ignored Lhix's quick hammer and didn't vote for him until after his furious reaction to

my

vote - but I thought that looked pretty townish...


I have to go now, but I'll get back to this either in a few hours or tomorrow.

[Wickedestjr]

Yeah he was clearly trying to solve the puzzle. He was delving into things and hitting the correct notes. I can give specifics if you want but that's the gist of it.

Eh... I didn't see anything that Kublai-scum isn't capable of.

Our conman tho, is like, the exact opposite.

If this is your reason for voting him, then why him instead of ProHawk/Rob/RC ?

[Wickedestjr]

Yeah, I'm pretty damn confident that CMM is town here.

If you are town, then why aren't you making any effort to convince us that you're right about CM? He's at L-1 right now...

[Wickedestjr]

We're five days away from our second lynch and it feels like we are lacking information.

I'll be meta'ing and rereading...

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote: ConManMick

Starting to think that I might've been wrong about this.

More tomorrow...

[Wickedestjr]

Sorry guys, yesterday was stupid busy. Today is reasonably busy, but I'll try to post soon...

[Wickedestjr]

45: FoS on Wicked for this. He tries to push Kublai for putting people at L-1 carelessly. He doesn't bother pushing the two that voted literally everyone, just as carelessly.

You're trying to equate the behavior of Con/Kaboose with Kublai, when their behaviors were, actually, noticeably different in my opinion. At the time, I thought Kublai's vote was slightly more likely to be coming from scum because he put two players at L-1 without announcing. Sure, it was ridiculous of Kaboose and Con to vote for everyone, but this didn't strike me as suspicious - and it wasn't nearly as careless because they didn't even put anyone at L-1 (they also didn't know that Kublai would cast L-1 votes).

You've made it clear that Con's "vote: all" didn't bother

you

, so why does it have to bother

me

? Later in your catchup post, you admit that Lhix was the only person to blame for the quick hammer and the previous votes wouldn't have known that he would do that - so why can't

I

follow that same philosophy here and ignore Con/Kab?

Wicked then responds to the problem of too many votes being out and too many people being close to lynch by bringing

even more people

close to lynch. Come on now, that's either really dumb as town or trying to reach an accidental quick-lynch without being obvious as scum. You changed the gamestate to four people at L-1 or L-2 by post #45.

Please don't call my behavior dumb. I could say the same about this point against me. I'm not going to avoid voting somebody I have a genuine issue with just because it puts them at L-2. Maybe L-2 is bothersome for you, but it's not for me. Even L-1 wouldn't bother me that much if it was announced (I didn't realize we had a troll in our town). It's five to lynch, so limiting ourselves to L-3 or less is too restrictive to move forward.

107: Oh, RC is back now. Nevermind, not blacklisted. Just scum. It's way more likely that he was scum maneuvering with this whole blow up than town who seriously can't handle a basic and non-problematic interaction with an extremely polite user.

I considered this too, but then I looked at the times. You think he'd let his replacement request stand for six whole hours before ending the charade if it was all just a scum maneuver?

153: This reaction to the lynch stands out to me. Why is Wicked not at all reacting to it? It just seems ... weird. Don't know what scum motivation there would be to not reaction though. No town motivation comes to mind either.

You should note that Lhix is the first person I voted. I didn't acknowledge the quick hammer because I saw no benefit to reacting to it. It annoyed me and I think it was very harmful, but complaining about it does no good after the fact. Furthermore, Lhix didn't appear open to receiving instruction for his bad move.

Why should I react to it? To make myself look town by getting really frustrated? It's not like this is the first time I've ever seen a quick hammer. Should I have acted surprised like this;

116: WHAT! Fucking goddamn it. I can understand why my predecessor was banned. Fucking troll. Kaboose was obvtown. Kublai should have seen that, with his experience, although I can buy him being distracted from his vote due to the RC saga. The others I don't know experience levels of. But my slot's vote is terrible.... Probably trying to tank this game based on the info for his ban.

You didn't know about the quick hammer when you first replaced in?

301: Wicked defended himself with "I always talk serious" earlier this game, and now he's using "You're serious" to attack Kublai, who is no longer in the game to provide the same defense.

Firstly, I didn't say "I always talk serious". Secondly, I didn't vote Kublai solely for "being serious". Thirdly, Kublai isn't in the game to provide defense, because he replaced out literally

right after I voted him

.

Wicked has been on site long enough to know Kublai talks serious. This is a horrible post, and it's scum motivated.

Again, I didn't vote Kublai solely for "being serious". Furthermore, as I said during confirmations, "Kublai, it's been a while!". Sure we've both been on site for a long time, but my experience with him consists of a single game that we played in together six years ago. Why do you assume that I'm an expert on his posting style?

170: The first response in 170 almost certainly comes from town. Kublai looked much better after the start of game. I can't see scum just backing down on their main case for no reason.

But you

can

assume that I'm scum for backing down from my Con vote? Hmm... All hail the confirmation bias?


TL;DR (for everyone else) - If you read nothing else, I recommend reading the first paragraph at least.

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote: ConManMick

Starting to think that I might've been wrong about this.

More tomorrow...

That post again ...

Unvote: ConManMick

Starting to think that the momentum is shifting and my reads are no longer popular.

More tomorrow...

That post again ...

You're reaching here. When I think of "momentum shifting" off of Con, I can only remember Antihero's un-vote which didn't last long to begin with. I believe that I'm the only other person to un-vote and I didn't really have to.

If I'm scum, then why would I unvote the leading wagon when I am the alternative?
If you are town, why haven't you asked why I un-voted? You're just assuming that I'm scum (even though you're not voting me) and it turns out that you are either scum yourself or just a townie suffering from confirmation bias.

[Wickedestjr]

I think he was questioning how safe his reads were. It's a rhetorical device I employ every so often, and I do it as town and scum.

Yep, everyone knows that the first vote on the leading wagon is a dangerous spot for scum to be in.

[Wickedestjr]

Yeah, well my uncle killed himself and I just got back from the funeral so I'm not really sorry for not being town carry no. 1 nor in the best emotional state this game.

Very sorry to hear about this, man. My thoughts and prayers go out to you and your family.

I look forward to hearing your reasoning for your reads, but no rush at all.

[Wickedestjr]

We're five days away from our second lynch and it feels like we are lacking information.

I'll be meta'ing and rereading...

hey wicked.

you could... like... read my posts instead of yammering on about khan but whatever floats your boat i guess.

Firstly, I'm not going to ignore Kublai's posts just because he's not here anymore.

Secondly, I've been reading your posts, I just haven't seen anything telling from you yet!

Unvote: ConManMick

Starting to think that I might've been wrong about this.

More tomorrow...

why are you avoiding me?

I'm sorry, man. None of your posts stuck out to me on my first read through. Given that I'm voting you, it does seem fair that I reread your iso and make a greater effort to determine your alignment though.

[Wickedestjr]

If this is your reason for voting him, then why him instead of ProHawk/Rob/RC ?

I'm not sure why you're lumping this particular group together, explain? Or is this just your scum list, which by and large I agree with.

You said that Kublai was "clearly trying to solve the puzzle... delving into things and hitting the correct notes" and later said that Con was the "exact opposite". I'm wondering why you only called out Con for this instead of other people that weren't doing much scum hunting at the time like Pro/Rob/RC...

Unvote: ConManMick

Starting to think that I might've been wrong about this.

More tomorrow...

porque

I spent about twenty/thirty minutes looking at ConMan's meta. I'll be honest, I didn't notice any clear scum tells, but I

did

see that his play here is pretty similar to some of his past town games, enough that I have a slight town lean on him right now. It's not a strong read, but strong enough that I didn't want to leave him at L-1 and feel like exploring another option.


Two other things I'd like to say;
-From what I saw of Con's meta, the "Vote: All" from him seems pretty null.
-I intend to meta Kublai and simply haven't had the time yet, but I should have more time now that it's the weekend.

[Wickedestjr]

Are you saying that you've voted for him already and NOW you're going to find a reason for that vote...?

No, that's completely wrong.

[Wickedestjr]

Are you saying that you've voted for him already and NOW you're going to find a reason for that vote...?

No, that's completely wrong.

Wait I jumped to conclusions. Reanalyising your reasons for voting him, yes?

Correct. I voted Kublai for reasons that I need to reanalyze (because it could be a play style thing). I also need to reread Antihero's iso to get a better read on him, not for the sole purpose of justifying my vote for his predecessor (I don't know that I'm going to keep my vote on him after doing this)...

[Wickedestjr]

I do not believe you were consistent in your application of a scumhunting strategy to Con/Kaboose vs Kublai. Am I wrong?

You

are

wrong. When I voted for Kublai, I didn't think to myself "He's careless, so I will vote for him", although the behavior I voted him for could certainly be seen as careless.

My thought process was "Tere and RC are at L-1 right now and nobody realizes it. Scum are loving this because it's very easy for someone to accidentally hammer. Hmmmm. Kublai seems responsible for this dangerous scenario. He could have purposely done this as scum - he is slightly more likely to be scum and, on page 2, I have no better lead."

Con/Kaboose's "Vote: All"s, didn't surprise me. Unlimited voting is the kind of thing that I would expect at least one player (regardless of alignment) to abuse, so it don't make me suspicious of them.

He entered the request just before 2am and lifted a tiny bit after 7:30am. That's not risky in terms of replacing out, if that's your concern.

Fair point...

I must have misunderstood your vote on Kublai, then, because it sounded like his speaking style is what you were taking issue with. Care to explain it more? You absolutely did defend yourself with "this is how I always talk" in #175, responding to the claim that your speaking was overly formal.

You have *partially* made my point for me.

Formal

is a better adjective in that I try to avoid conveying negative emotion - but I wouldn't describe myself as 100% serious. You'll note that not every post I make is written with the intention of scum hunting;

Spoiler: having fun

Kublai, it's been a while!

I can promise you that if you claim miller again, I will not fall for it a second time. (You've probably heard that a few dozen times).

/confirm

24 hours

Well I was

going

to vote Tere for being chaotic neutral at worst ...
...
Also,

Vote: TellTaleHeart

(L-2) because she cannot be trusted.

Also,

Vote: TellTaleHeart

(L-2) because she cannot be trusted.

I challenge you to a duel.

Take your weapon:

Ready... set... GO!

and when I see opportunities, I'll continue to be sarcastic, playful, friendly, and off topic at times. I didn't vote Kublai because he was serious, I voted him because his seriousness felt unnatural. He ignored my reach out to him, gave no reasoning for his random votes, attacked RC for his RVS behavior, makes a point (on page 3/4 of a game) about how winning > having fun. A bunch of little things that added up to vote-worthy. He treated scum hunting like a job, and it felt out of place to me.

1. I did not remember him being this way in the past. I have very little recollection of his behavior in our game from six years ago, but I'm sure I would remember him as being the "serious guy" if that's how he was before.
2. It felt like he wanted to appear "no fun and games"-intensely focused on scum hunting.

This is a decent defense. Now show the same dedication to scum-hunting ... what's your current reads? Where do you think we should be lynching today?

A reasonable request, I will answer this soon.

[Wickedestjr]

Regarding the other two, I'm not stoked about their lack of contribution, no.

You think ConMan contributed more than ProHawk?

meta

:/

This actually bothers me. You can't ignore my point and post a dissatisfied :/ just because I used the word 'meta'. Meta can be used incorrectly, but I didn't use it incorrectly...

Have you seen any of ConMan's town games before?

[Wickedestjr]

I like Rob for town as well.

My major scumpile right now is Papa/TTH/MAYBE Prohawk

Does that mean you're town reading me?

[Wickedestjr]

TTH, what do you think about Antihero right now? What is your track record for reading him?

[Wickedestjr]

Here's where I'm at;

TOWN
Wickedestjr
============
RadiantCowbells
.
.
.
.
Rob13
.
.
ConManMick
.
------------------------------wouldn't be opposed to lynching anyone below this line
.
ProHawk
TellTaleHeart
.
.
.
Papa Zito
.
Antihero
SCUM


I'm going to

Vote: Papa Zito

, because his :/ gives me a bad feeling about his ConMan vote. (see post 432) I think his ConMan vote is opportunistic, and in general I haven't seen anything to make me think PZ is town...

I'm going to look at Kublai meta and reread Antihero right now...

[Wickedestjr]

Surely you can give rationale for your strong scum read on Anti before re-reading him?

I already

did

give my rationale for that read. I literally just gave an in-depth explanation on this page.

Why do you need to read to find reasons if he's already strong scum?

While he is my strongest scum read, I never said he was a

strong

scum read.

And I've already answered this question too. Kublai's posts gave me a bad feeling, so I wanted to check his meta to see if I got that same bad feeling from some of his previous games. If this is how he always posts, then I would unvote. If this is a legitimate scum tell for him, then it would be nice to have that knowledge - my scum read would strengthen.

I need to reread Antihero because I am voting him for his predecessor's play but haven't seen anything particularly telling from him on my initial read through.


Is there a problem here? Just because I'm scum reading someone now, that doesn't mean I'm going to stop making an effort to figure out their alignment.

[Wickedestjr]

I looked at Kublai's meta and his play here seems more similar to his scum meta. When I skimmed through a few of his early game town isos, he is noticeably more relaxed and not 100% serious like he was here. All serious business in his most recent scum game, though.

Then I looked at Antihero's isolation in this game. Admittedly, there are things that I like: I was scum partners with him almost a year ago and it seems like he is putting more scum hunting effort into this game, he also feels slightly more relaxed here. Something I don't like, though: his vote for ProHawk. Not an issue because I'm town reading ProHawk, but an issue because the reasoning seems pretty bad.

Antihero, how strong is your scum read on ProHawk? What's ProHawk's scum motivation for playing the way that he has so far?

Because the confidence that you exude doesn't seem to match the strength of your points.

[Wickedestjr]

Why?

[Wickedestjr]

You're reading that wrong.

There are two reasons why I could have an issue with Antihero's vote for you...
A. I dislike that he chose to vote, because I'm town reading you
B. I disagree with the reasoning

When I said, "Not an issue because I'm town reading ProHawk, but an issue because the reasoning seems pretty bad", I was making it clear that B is my reason for not liking his vote rather than A.

Does that make sense?

[Wickedestjr]

Fixed;

You're reading that wrong.

There are two reasons why I could have an issue with Antihero's vote for you...
A. I dislike that he chose to vote

you

, because I'm town reading you
B. I disagree with the reasoning

When I said, "Not an issue because I'm town reading ProHawk, but an issue because the reasoning seems pretty bad", I was making it clear that B is my reason for not liking his vote rather than A.

Does that make sense?

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote: Antihero

*thinking*

[Wickedestjr]

RC, "I don't like the way people are moving around it" is a vague/ridiculous reason to un-vote someone, especially in an unlimited voting game like this. Very convenient how your best vote is the one you get rid of. I was town reading you, but this feels a little bit like an RC/PZ team.

No alternative option you want to push with seven hours left? No reasons for any of your reads?

If you don't care anymore, what does self-voting accomplish that a replace out request doesn't? Why not just replace out?

If you're town that can't give this game the attention it needs, you think pushing a known mis-lynch is the best solution to that problem?

With your self-vote, you are becoming a considerable liability to whichever side you're on, more-so than you would be if you just replaced out right now (or two weeks ago for that matter). If you're town, then your self-vote is a slap in the face to everyone, but most/all of us have treated you fairly this game.

[Wickedestjr]

They voted me first. I'm just returning the favour.

Oh okay, I didn't realize that's how this game worked.

If you don't care about this game anymore, then why did you un-vote Papa Zito?

[Wickedestjr]

Like, there's 3 people discussing lynching Papa Zito.

I am voting 2 of them and have been gradually warming to a lynch on the third.

I don't think it's at all out of the ordinary for me to get cold feet about that lynch under those conditions.

When your scum pool contains half the players in the game, and only one of those reads is an unpopular choice, it shouldn't be shocking that your scum reads are going to attack each other. Worth noting: TTH and Papa Zito are not voting for each other. Furthermore, I'm sure you don't have a 100% perfect track record for catching scum teams on day 1, so you shouldn't avoid voting Papa Zito just because of associative evidence...

You're not going to mention anything about CMM's vote being opportunistic as fucking shit?

It doesn't really bother me that much. I don't know what to say about his vote... Do

you

think he's scummy for it?

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: I almost put you at L-1 too. So I can see where ConMan's coming from when he's going to sleep and knows he'll have no more power over who gets lynched.

[Wickedestjr]

I also don't like the associatives between the two of you and I think the scumteam could easily be CMM/youreslf here.

You say that, but literally two days ago you said:

I like Rob for town as well.

My major scumpile right now is Papa/TTH/MAYBE Prohawk

which shows a completely different scum pool. That tells me that your reads aren't very strong in this game, because that's 5/7 players that you are suspecting. Given this lack of confidence, why is it a problem that Papa Zito is getting votes from two of the other players that you find suspicious?

What's bad about our (CMM and I) associatives?

Yes, town do often opportunistically vote people to avoid getting lynched themselves.

The specific way that CMM did it there, not something I like at all.

What should he have done differently? Not go to sleep?

What's your read on me?

You were my strongest town read yesterday. But your exit off the PZ bandwagon bothers me. I'm neutral on you right now, that's why I'm asking you so many questions.

[Wickedestjr]

Meanwhile Papa Zito has logged on, but is not posting at the most critical point in the game. He hasn't posted once since I made my point against him. His vote on the ConMan wagon is awful.

With that being the case, I don't want to be the person who creates a new wagon right before the end of the day, particularly when I'm already not necessarily townreading either of the primary wagons.

So did you un-vote PZ because you suspect the people voting him? Or did you un-vote because you suspect his counter wagons? Because you've said both, but they don't really overlap at all.

Do you see my problem with all this?

You must have had a reason for voting him earlier. And he surely hasn't done anything to make you change your mind, he hasn't posted since you voted him. I think you should vote for him again...

[Wickedestjr]

Why did you decide to un-vote yourself?

[Wickedestjr]

Ok well what was it exactly that you disliked about the movement around it?

Have you ever exhibited behavior like this before as town? (e.g. Replaced out then changed your mind, self voted then un-voted, etc.)

[Wickedestjr]

Ok well what was it exactly that you disliked about the movement around it?

[Wickedestjr]

The fact that the only people who supported it were scumreads of mine?

And that a few of them struck (specifically CMM) struck me as him just wanting to push the wagon away from him.

Given that you still think these are good points, I don't think there's anything else I can say to convince you that you're wrong - even though I'm starting to think you're town again...


Have you ever self-voted then un-voted as scum before? Have you ever replaced out then changed your mind as scum?

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: I un-voted Antihero.

~Fixed - ETL~

I'm going to vote for ConMan or ProHawk soon, not sure who yet - they're pretty close. I will do some rereading...

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: ProHawk

(L-2)

I like this more than the ConMan and RC wagons.

Four and a half hours left Zito

[Wickedestjr]

Well I went into the night thinking that TTH was scum.

I need to think about the last two flips...

[Wickedestjr]

3. I always :/ at meta. I give meta no value. Feel free to meta me on this topic. :3

Ok well why don't you give it any value? If you are voting somebody for a particular player trait, then wouldn't you want to know if it's something that they usually do as town or as both alignments. Wouldn't that render your reasoning invalid?


You have been voting for CMM all game. Yet you haven't given any reasoning. I just skimmed your iso and noticed you haven't spoken to CMM once this entire game. Why aren't you trying to get explanations from him? Why aren't you asking him any questions?


Your CMM vote feels lazy/opportunistic to me.

[Wickedestjr]

Let's make a deal.

I'm positive that the scumteam is Anti/CMM right now.

How about we lynch in the 3 of us, and if you lynch me then you have to lynch one of them after.

Does that sound fair?

I don't like this.

Why don't you explain your scum reads before giving up on persuading us?

Your reads have changed so much throughout the game that I have no reason to trust your confidence here. The word 'positive' in particular doesn't mean anything to me because you expressed similar confidence that I was scum earlier on.

[Wickedestjr]

Although if you read the fine print on your "Free town points for pressure on Zito" coupon, you'll see that it requires you to actually place a vote.

Ah I missed that.

I might vote for Zito again... Still thinking it over.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm inclined to think that Antihero is town right now.

Not only do I trust TTH's read on him, but I have trouble seeing Anti-scum kill her after she gave that read. The only way that I could see Anti-scum killing TTH is if Rob was his partner. Rob is really the only player that was getting less attention than TTH. However, I also doubt that it's Anti/Rob because of their predecessors interactions with each other. In particular: I really think that Kublai Khan's vote for Lhix wasn't a bus.

I also have a town read on Rob for both his play and his predecessor's reaction to my vote.

So I will say, pretty confidently, that scum are in {ConManMick, Papa Zito, RadiantCowbells}.

I'm actually going to

Vote: RadiantCowbells

(L-1)

[Wickedestjr]

Yes, that list is POE. It's the way I usually scum hunt.

[Wickedestjr]

Ok well why don't you give it any value? If you are voting somebody for a particular player trait, then wouldn't you want to know if it's something that they usually do as town or as both alignments. Wouldn't that render your reasoning invalid?

This is a theory discussion that we can have some other time.

A theory discussion "some other time" isn't going to help me determine your alignment "right now". It's a simple question and I don't understand why you aren't answering - I can't just assume that you genuinely believe what you're saying because I don't know your alignment and your opinion makes zero sense to me right now.

Let me show you what true lazy thinking looks like.

You have been voting for CMM all game.

This is lazy thinking. This is "I don't really approve of this behavior" thinking. I just discussed how nothing in the NK changes my view on that slot. That slot was my top scumread yesterday. If nothing changes, it stands to reason that it's my top scumread today. Why would I not vote my top scumread?

Keeping your vote on somebody for an extended period of time, on its own, isn't scummy. That sentence that you've quoted is part of a larger point that I'm trying to make.

Again, this is lazy. "I don't like that you haven't done what I want." You can't tell me, with a straight face, that you've never seen a town player vote someone and maintain that vote without providing a case.

You're right - townies vote without giving reasons all the time.

Does that mean I should ignore your lack of reasoning?

For what it's worth, this is also not something that bothers me on its own. It's part of a larger point - that you are not doing anything to get a read on him.

What, exactly, am I supposed to be asking him? He promised a catch-up post that only just now was delivered. I haven't been provided new content to question him about.

You didn't question him about any of his original content either, so this is a pretty bad excuse. You've literally never spoken to him once in this game.

[Wickedestjr]

I don't give any weight whatsoever to something a player does in other games or has done in the past. I honestly just don't care. There are way too many variables to make that kind of analysis meaningful.

Saying "Well this player lurked in his last game and he's lurking here so he must be scum!" is stupid.

Maybe he has computer issues! Maybe he has connection issues! Maybe Life Happened and he's super busy! Maybe he's burned out! Maybe he's just not having much fun! There's all kinds of perfectly reasonable explanations for why someone's behavior can change from game to game. I gave (what I consider) a super great analogy for this in another game but it isn't over yet or I'd import it here.

I never said that anyone was scum for doing something that they've done as scum in the past. I voted ConMan, but then un-voted because I realized that the behavior I voted him for was typical of his play style. What is wrong with that?

I stg I have to go over this every fucking game. I'm not obligated nor required to grill someone in order to put a vote on them. I'm just fucking not. If other people are talking to someone and I don't feel the need to jump in and add something,

guess what I won't.

whoa slow the fuck down we have a crazy ass concept here. I really have 0 idea why people have decided I need to be held to this ridiculous standard when other people are free to do nothing but drop naked votes, snort coke, and post train pics without batting an eye. /rant

You and RC are really the only two players that aren't giving points or asking your suspects questions. I'm not questioning RC for that right now because he's been considerably detached from this game and exudes a lot of confidence in his scum hunting abilities. But you have been asking other players questions, so I just assumed you were the type of player to get reads by asking questions - that's why it confuses me that you're not asking CMM anything. I don't know that this is necessarily a scum tell, but it's certainly an aspect of your play that doesn't make sense to me and I thought that your response would help me understand your thought process.

[Wickedestjr]

My thought process is that I don't have to ask someone questions if someone else already is. Unless there's something pressing that I want an answer on and whoever is doing the questioning isn't hitting that point,

why the hell would I stick my nose in there and ruin someone else's efforts

? Why not use the opportunity to watch not just the target but also the questioner to see if they're coming from a good place? Why not put my efforts elsewhere and broaden the town's overall scope of scumhunting instead of tunneling on someone that's already being questioned? ffs this seems so goddamn obvious to me, why do people have trouble with this.

Whose effort did you not want to ruin?

Also, can you please respond to this:

I don't give any weight whatsoever to something a player does in other games or has done in the past. I honestly just don't care. There are way too many variables to make that kind of analysis meaningful.

Saying "Well this player lurked in his last game and he's lurking here so he must be scum!" is stupid.

Maybe he has computer issues! Maybe he has connection issues! Maybe Life Happened and he's super busy! Maybe he's burned out! Maybe he's just not having much fun! There's all kinds of perfectly reasonable explanations for why someone's behavior can change from game to game. I gave (what I consider) a super great analogy for this in another game but it isn't over yet or I'd import it here.

I never said that anyone was scum for doing something that they've done as scum in the past. I voted ConMan, but then un-voted because I realized that the behavior I voted him for was typical of his play style. What is wrong with that?

? Rob explained my question pretty well in 558. If you continue to dodge this, I'll have to assume there's scum motivation here...

[Wickedestjr]

I'm pretty comfortable just saying that of all of the games I'm playing this is the one I'm least interested because of how weak the town players are.

I'm sure you would rebuke your attackers in this way as either alignment. And for what it's worth, you've made your lack of interest pretty clear to us.

I asked you earlier but you ignored me: if you really lack interest, why haven't you replaced out? Because this is the third time that you've expressed significant disinterest yet you remain in the game. The purpose of the game is to have fun and it doesn't seem like you're having fun. Furthermore, your lack of presence and your disrespectful attitude (going out of your way to call us weak) is not conducive to a fun game for the rest of us. Does that matter to you?

[Wickedestjr]

Rob, there is much more interest in lynching RC today... You should re-vote for him...

Your un-vote looks pretty bad.

[Wickedestjr]

WickedJestr's 581 strikes me as scum talking to town.

No, that's town talking to scum.

I'm asking you why you haven't replaced out because it seems weird to me that you continue showing disinterest (your replace out, your self vote, then your recent comment) despite remaining in the game. In particular, your replace out and self vote are starting to look fake to me.

[Wickedestjr]

Rob, I can understand wanting to vote for your top suspect and don't have issue with your vote choice. The reason I said that your un-vote looks bad is because of its weird timing: PZ is now your top suspect for a point that I brought up about a week ago...

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: ConManMick

I think it's CMM/RC...

[Wickedestjr]

I need to think about this.

[Wickedestjr]

*not hammering*

Can somebody please un-vote? I haven't really gotten the chance to think about the RC flip yet, but I'm currently thinking Rob is town and Con is scum - which would mean game over unless someone removes a vote...

I'll probably get to this tomorrow (just finished finals, didn't sleep last night, and spending time with family today). But I would be disappointed to see game over before I even get a chance to say anything.

[Wickedestjr]

According to his profile, CMM was online yesterday morning while Rob was at L-1. I had the opportunity to hammer Rob but

also

chose not to.

This means: If Rob is town, the scum team is Antihero/Papa Zito.

Also: Rob is my strongest town read right now.

• Yes, his predecessor hammered Kaboose, but he was banned for being a troll account. It is bothersome that Lhix's hammer was ignored for so long and is just recently brought up again.
  
• Lhix's reaction to my vote looked like genuine frustration and anger which (still) makes me think that he is town.
  
• Rob's use of meta is 100%, entirely legitimate and reasonable. Antihero can continue to call it sleazy, inappropriate, and deceptive as much as he wants - but his issue with this use of meta will never have any validity, regardless of Rob's alignment.
  
• I don't see any scum motivation for Rob to remove his vote from the RC wagon.

Anti and PZ, I think your arguments against Rob are bad and you have both been ignorant of his perfectly reasonable explanations. Even if Rob turns out to be scum, I will still maintain this belief.

It's gotta be Rob-??? or Anti-PZ and it just seems way more likely that it's Anti-PZ. If Rob is scum, then I deserve to lose this game anyway.

Vote: Antihero (L-1)
Vote: Papa Zito (L-1)

ConMan, the ball's in your court. I hope this is as clear to you as it is to me.

[Wickedestjr]

*Antihero (L-2)

[Wickedestjr]

ConMan come back please!

[Wickedestjr]

You and Rob?

[Wickedestjr]

Ugh are you kidding me

This cannot be happening

[Wickedestjr]

This doesn't change anything that I said about meta...

[Wickedestjr]

Well done PZ and Rob!

This is actually the most surprised that I have been in a long while.

[Wickedestjr]

Thank you for the game ETL!