Micro 609: DC Dual Universes uPick - Game over!

[Clumsy]

Joe killed Batman's parents.

VOTE: Joe Chill

Wait.

VOTE: Javajoe24

[Clumsy]

More because of his interest in sheeping.

If you're here to be a mindless zombie, this isn't the game for you. Plus, it's anti-town. I mean, this is day one and I'm sure it will change, but I already don't like his posting.

Meh, don't really like this. I don't think it's a great reason, but meh, it's early Day 1.

I feel that. I'm extremely excited about my character. Just check the web. (I'm Spiderman)

1 Post #1. Did you not see him? It's Spiderman. Spiderman. Does whatever a mother fucking spider can.

Can he swing from a web?
Fuck yeah, he can.

And I can hear the humiliation in your heart, because you're realizing how stupid you insisting I'm a liar is.

Everyone else, do you think I was really trying to pass off as Spiderman?

I didn't think so, not a bit. It was pretty obvious from the sample role PM. Why are people not reading the rules?

Oh stop. Sheeping whoever is doing their work? It was an RVS vote. I should've just said "I can't tell if I love that pun, or hate it"

To be fair, that's pretty much how I read it.

(Catching up after work, next page following)

[Clumsy]

Kuroi's new avatar is throwing me off.

Same. I keep getting Kuroi and Lane mixed up, which is making this exchange hard to interpret.

Kuroi's new avatar is throwing me off.

I'd change it to Spiderman, but I'm afraid of being lynched.

What happened to dancing Miltank?

That was for Kain TEPES!!!!!!!!

God bless his udder.

Praise be unto him.

I'm getting a little bit of a scum theater vibe here. I'm alright with my vote where it is.

Interesting, I may not have thought of it like that. Why Lane over Kuroi here though? Just because that's where your vote already was?

Except you forgot the most important part. You think I'm upset about the lie. Which would only be a town mindset. Scum wouldn't give a shit cause they already know they're throwing out bs. So how can you think I'm upset about that, and still think I'm scum? Because you're scum full of crap

I... Don't follow this at all. Just... wat?

[Clumsy]

Just to let you guys know, I'll be mostly away for the next few days. Spending Mother's day with my mom today, as I work tomorrow (at a restaurant, on Mother's Day. Pray I make it back alive). I also work all day Monday. I will pop in when I can though, and it should be back to normal starting Tuesday.

[Clumsy]

More because of his interest in sheeping.

If you're here to be a mindless zombie, this isn't the game for you. Plus, it's anti-town. I mean, this is day one and I'm sure it will change, but I already don't like his posting.

I'll be a mindless zombie if I want and I don't appreciate you discriminating. You bigot. Everyone has a right to play the game how they want to. You're not the boss here. You need more love and acceptance in your heart.

Omgus? You just claimed a character from the marvel universe. Considering this is a DC UNIVERSE GAME. I'm going to call you a total liar

Overreacting to sometime lying about their role? And getting pussy? Now you're just flinging shit and trying to make it stick. Good for you if it does

This all felt over the top for this early in day 1. Originally I felt like this was TvS, but the suggestion of Scum Theater is looking applicable too. Lane, Kuroi, do you guys have a history of getting under the other's skin? Where did this come from so suddenly? I can understand a little frustration, but this seems over the top for me.

If you have changed your mind about lane being scummy then who would be your next scummiest player?

Who are your scummiest players? Why are you more concerned with who he thinks it's scummy than who you think is scummy?

I feel like this is diverting attention away from the theater, especially since this is after TellTaleHeart's post about it, but it could be a valid concern. Sheeping/just going on other people's reads this early is not a great thing to be doing. I think some more interaction with the board will help me figure this early day debacle out.

[Clumsy]

Whew, the chaos of Mother's Day is over. I'll be catching up now.

[Clumsy]

TvT

Also.... Ew??

What makes you so sure it is TvT?

Why are you ignoring this Snowman? Also, is this normal posting behavior for him? I don't really know anyone here except Kuroi.

Reads list:

Town:
Lilith
Snarky
lane
Kuroi

Null:
Clumsy
TTH

Scum:
Javajoe (but not with Soren)
Soren (but not with Javajoe)


Those are in no particular order, and mostly based on gut, right now. So, come on, let's do this.

VOTE: Xkfyu
Few things I want explained here. Why is Lillith town? Why is -Snowman- town? And lastly, do you also believe that the Lane/Kuroi is TvT? Why?

[Clumsy]

Fuck it, I'll out the secret scumread.

VOTE: Javajoe

Could you explain this?

[Clumsy]

Cool, I never know which people actually have them. I'll look into it. I know some people just have a distinctive posting style. (Praise his udders)

[Clumsy]

If you had to choose one of them to be scum, which one would it be?

I'd choose Lane over Kuroi here. Lane's posts seem less genuine to me.

[Clumsy]

Lilith is a straight up gut read.

Snarky only made 3 posts when he came into the thread, but he didn't vote anyone, even though he was the only person without a vote in place. That doesn't sound like "scum trying to stay under the radar "to me.

And I think the Lane vs Kuroi thing is TvT because early D1 arguments like that usually are, since scum don't usually want to bring undue attention on themselves. Especially not so early.

1. Fair, I suppose.
B. What do you think scum would do here?
Thirdly: Meh, I don't think I buy into it completely. As soon as something becomes an obv town tell, scum will start to do it to be obv town. Such black and white views can be dangerous. But if that's your thought process, that's your thought process.

[Clumsy]

Clumsy goes back into the game without respond to my vote on him and makes the same kind of post.
136 and 137 are just questions and doesn't tell me much about how he thinks about the game. He did vote for Xkfyu but that doesn't change my thoughts on clumsy. I'm sticking with my vote.

If there's one thing I've learned from all of my games of Mafia on this site, it's one thing.

I suck at Day 1.

I'm trying to get a hold on the game and the people here, it seems like a lot of you know of each other at the least. If you want my thoughts, I like TTH for town, I like Lane and Xkfyu for scum. I don't really know what to do with Snowman. Have yet to go reading through games. Not really liking Joe's posts so far. Kuroi's early game was... interesting, but I think I'm leaning towards either scum theater or town? Mark me down as unsure. Whereas, I like Lane for scum either for scum theater or just solo. Pretty much everyone else is middle ground.

Also:

136 and 137 are just questions and doesn't tell me much about how he thinks about the game.

SnarkySnowman thoughts on kuroi vs lane?

Elaborate please

Why?

I'm relatively confident in Lane being scum. (Considering it's still very early on day one.) I'll do some more reads tonight.

Hope to see those reads soon.

UNVOTE: Soren

VOTE: lane0168

Sheeping Kuroi.

You seem very unmotivated in this game, why?
What about kuroi do you agree with?

Most of your posts are questions without much telling about you either. You get into it more later with posts, but that was very recent. I think your reasons for scumreading me are silly. Where are your thoughts on the rest of the game? Anything about Kuroi or Lane? There's been no followup there after your questions, and you seem fixated on me (and to a lesser extent, Xkfyu). Why are you shying away from the elephants?

[Clumsy]

B. What do you think scum would do here?

Cast a vote on someone.

Thirdly: Meh, I don't think I buy into it completely. As soon as something becomes an obv town tell, scum will start to do it to be obv town. Such black and white views can be dangerous. But if that's your thought process, that's your thought process.

You say that as if I have cleared them as town in my mind, and that's not what has happened. If I see something from either of them down the road that makes me think they are scum, then I'm certainly not going to let this early town read get in the way of it. For now though, I see no reason why they aren't town for it.

Oh no, I don't think you've completely cleared them. Maybe shouldn't have used obv town, just town. Meh. Basically, I'm saying I'm disagreeing with you, but I see your side.

UNVOTE: Xkfyu
VOTE: Lillith

Where are you at? Your vote is still from RVS, are you content with it there or what?

[Clumsy]

Lilith is a straight up gut read.

Snarky only made 3 posts when he came into the thread, but he didn't vote anyone, even though he was the only person without a vote in place. That doesn't sound like "scum trying to stay under the radar "to me.

And I think the Lane vs Kuroi thing is TvT because early D1 arguments like that usually are, since scum don't usually want to bring undue attention on themselves. Especially not so early.

1. Fair, I suppose.
B. What do you think scum would do here?
Thirdly: Meh, I don't think I buy into it completely. As soon as something becomes an obv town tell, scum will start to do it to be obv town. Such black and white views can be dangerous.

But if that's your thought process, that's your thought process.

The bold part sounds like you think my thought process is genuine. But, why would you say something like this to someone you were legitimately scum reading?

Because I'm more or less satisfied with your response. I'm still looking your way, but I'm somewhat... appeased? Ugh, I'm having trouble articulating today. Your reasoning makes enough sense for now.

[Clumsy]

Vote still from RVS, no big input yet. Less "this is scum", more "get in here and contribute".

[Clumsy]

Strong Town: TelltaleHeart
Lean Town: Lilith, Clumsy
Null: Soren, Javajoe
Lean Scum: Xkfyu, SnarkySnowman
Strong Scum: Lane

So what do you see in snarky's posts here? Describe scum snarky, or town snarky

OK. I've found that when he's less active, he's more likely to be town. The more he coasts, the more likely he is to be town.

So what do you see in snarky's posts here? Describe scum snarky, or town snarky

OK. I've found that when he's less active, he's more likely to be town. The more he coasts, the more likely he is to be town.

Describe what snarky is doing here that makes you think he is scum... Or what he's doing that makes him not town. That shouldn't be too much to ask. I can do the rest myself.

Coasting. Only speaking if being pushed to do so. Being more reactive than pro-active. Not scum hunting.

Am I missing something/misunderstanding something, because this seems contradictory. You say he's coasting, but the more he coasts, the more likely he is to be town... so you're scumreading him?

[Clumsy]

On a (very) short lunch break. Going to speed read through and catch up a bit.

Checking in, I have no extra comments since my last post

Nothing at all? Want to comment on any of this going on now?

UNVOTE: Javajoe24

VOTE: KuroiXHF

Yeah I'm going to go back to that. Mostly because kuroi was defending his scum read, saying if he'll come back to it or he ever can, and then the blatant contradiction, and then saying he only had him there cause he doesn't trust him. If that was true he would've just said that first. He just got caught

VOTE: kuroi

Okay I guess I'm good with this.

VOTE: kuroi

VOTE: kuroi for L-1

Why all the sudden votes on Kuroi? Like, these are all within 6 posts of each other. Did I miss a consensus somewhere?

See you on earth 2 kuroi

This... At first, I went into red alert mode when I read this. After reading the other posts, and having a minute to think, I -could- see this being innocent... but I don't like it. At all. This combined with him jumping on with 3 other people so suddenly give me an uneasy feeling. I'm not liking this possible Kuroi lynch. If that's what happens, and Kuroi is town, we need to hang this. As it is, with early game feeling very off for me in regards to Lane, and now all of this, Lane is my number 1 scum read. I don't like this Kuroi wagon at all.

VOTE: Lane

[Clumsy]

Not you suddenly jumping on. I realize you've been there, you two had almost a whole page going back and forth. Bad phrasing. Eating a sandwich while typing. Suddenly was to everyone else jumping on it within 6 posts.

[Clumsy]

I gotta head back to work, but I'll be back on tonight.

[Clumsy]

I'm back. Real short version for catch up:

When I signed up for this game, I assumed it would be role madness. Most games like this are. So I don't see anything wrong with Lillith thinking it was. Kuroi's tone here is weird, but I'm still not willing to put my vote there. Joe Chill is still rubbing me the wrong way, posts are very short and could be simple coasting. I was wondering about his questions in 288 as well though. Where is Soren at? And I wish Snarky would contribute a bit more. I get that this is his usual thing, but it doesn't make it any less annoying.

[Clumsy]

I get that. Not to mention getting hung as town in our last two games together. One was kinda put together by scum, the other was just a bad vig... and if you're town here, I can totally see that. :/

I really want to hear from the two of them about all of this. Really bad time to go quiet.

[Clumsy]

Not at home yet, but I really don't like the above. Rolefishing much?

[Clumsy]

Because of balancing issues. And replenishing for VT? I am only asking for one other to confirm my theory.

The more vt's that claim, the better chance scum have of hitting pr's. Is what clumsy is getting at

Exactly this. We already have two. Why do we want more?

[Clumsy]

(I think it was two? Might be getting confused with another game. I need to re-read.)

[Clumsy]

Will re-read a bit and update once I fully wake up this morning.

[Clumsy]

{Soren, Snarky, Javajoe} is where my scumpool currently stands.

I'm gonna have to reread at some point, but I think I'm mainly in agreeance here. I don't really like Lane either though. I don't know what to do about Snarky, and Soren is away.

[Clumsy]

To anyone who may asked me any questions, not ignoring you, just slightly busy.

[Clumsy]

Regarding Clumsy, I'll admit that the AtE in Post 184 got to me.

I know I'm not "supposed" to give that any weight, but ~the feels.~

That wasn't ATE. At least, not meant to be. Just a fact that I have not had a good Day 1 in a game yet. Death tunneled somewhat solid town first game (although I was scum), Completely offbase on Day 1 my second game, but called scumteam day 2, etc.

Just to preface: Neither of these reads are very strong. My list reads more like "town/townlean/null/people who did something scummy that makes them less than null," not "oh my god i think they're scum."

Clumsy: His pressure vote on me. I didn't catch that he was scumreading other people, which you pointed out, but I thought it was scummy for him to just pick somebody seemingly at random to pressure vote on page 8. There wasn't any mention of my content, so it wasn't like he had read my post and was like, "your post doesn't make sense, this is scummy" and voted me. Which makes me think even more that he just plucked my name out of thin air.

The other thing that's bothering me is that Clumsy seems like he's trying to offer commentary on the game without really getting involved. There's no real attempt to interact with his scumreads and push them. Could it just be that he's town having a hard time getting engaged? Possibly..

Feel free to go through my previous games and see how I play town. I've been described as "awkward town". As to interacting with scumreads, for example: I was getting suspicious of you not really saying where you were standing, and voted you and asked your stance. I pushed you for information. I pushed back on Soren when he pushed me. Did you miss all the questions I threw at Xk? We had a whole conversation there, and I was scumreading him.

(more incoming)

[Clumsy]

Comments through page 7 -

By page 3 I want to lynch Kuroi for 55 given the special mechanics that the Mod outlined specifically answer the question for Kuroi. Reads as fake uniformed Town posting. But it’s early.

Early Town read on Telltale for the scum theatre comment.

Also Clumsy’s posts to page 4 don’t feel like solid scum-hunting to me. Lots of volume but very little in the way of asserting who may be scum. Will need to see how this develops as the pages pile up.

It's bad because I'm not hard pushing who is scum on page 4?

Lane’s jump to Snarky at 102 is suspect given how committed he was that Kuroi was fake-scum reading him and was scum for it. At a gut level feels like grasping at a way to extricate himself from what is essentially a 1v1 with Kuroi at that early stage.

Agreed. If one is scum, it's more likely the one trying to get back out of the 1v1. Scum doesn't want that attention.

Agree that Xf’s read on Snarky on page 5 makes little sense with dropping Snarky as Town given Snarky’s complete lack of contributions. Null is the only slot that makes sense .

Lane’s 127 is also suspect given that he is voting Snarky at that point in time …

How is this suspect? He is voting Snarky. And doesn't believe that someone should put Snarky as town. I don't get what's odd about this.

Javajoe’s 130 and 130 are scummy. He’s voting TellTale while having Xf as his top scum read and despite being prodded by Lane doesn’t move it.

This is very odd, and I'm not entirely sure what to make of it. Like, I can't make a scum motivation nor a town motivation for it. Do you have any thoughts as to why he might do this? What's the scum motivation?

Comments Pages 8 to 15

Agree with 179.

Clumsy’s 184 hits my scumdar very, very hard. His pushback on Soren to “look at people other than me” looks Townish on its face but the language he top push the discussion towards Kuroi and Lane specifically reads to me as trying to derail focus on his slot. If Kuroi versus Lane is indeed TvT then attempting to direct attention to their early conflict would be a scum-motivated play.

And 186 is scummy. In 184 Clumsy had just spent a paragraph on how his top suspects were Lane and Xkfyu. Yet he moves his vote away to Lillith basically for activity reasons. In 184 he literally had just claimed Lillith was Null and yet 10 minutes later Lillith is a viable vote.

I pushed it towards Kuroi and Lane because he had stated no opinions on it at all, even though it was the biggest thing that had been going on. Instead he avoids it and comes after me, which seems to me like scum trying to not get mixed up in all of that.

Pushing my vote over to Lillith does not mean that she is suddenly my number 1 scum read. The vote is a tool. One that can result in a hanging, but you'd be hardpressed to convince anyone that my vote moving there was trying to get her to be the lynch today. She seemed to be coasting by without offering opinions, and I wanted some pressure there.

Troubled by Kuroi’s 192, specifically the read on Clumsy and Snarky given neither one was touched in his big catchup post.

Like Lilith for the moment given on Page 9 she has an eye on Clumsy.

Lane’s 213 earns some Town points for what I see as a very even-handed approach to Snarky meta.

And Xkfyu goes back into the deeper part of the scum-pool for 214.

Why?

And I don’t buy for an instant that Kuroi is scum-reading Snarky at if 220 is his assessment of Snarky meta. Because Snarky is very much to page 9 doing exactly what Kuroi claims his meta says Town Snarky would do.

Gut feeling is that Java might be scum hoping to coast out the early wagon on himself. Will need to see if activity picks up after page 10.

And don’t buy 233 at all. As of this post I think the reads list was manufactured and more likely to come from scum than Town.

Dear god can any of you give me a reason to Town-read you. Lilith’s 262 and 263 threaten to detonate the Town read I was forming on that slot.

Yeah, Lane’s “See you on Earth 2” looks just like the fake Town posting I read from Kuroi early. Especially since it would not contradict his claimed Kuroi-scum read since Kuroi would show up on Earth 2 if Town ever moved over to there with a mislynch.

Clumsy earns a deeper scum read for 287. That’s a classic “Aha, something I can push as scummy” reason to move to voting Lane not an actual Town processing Lane’s post. As I said earlier – even scum Kuroi would show up on Earth 2 whenever the game eventually shifted there (if it ever does). Additional points for completely abandoning the so called pressure vote on Lilith for lack of activity without even a comment on the change in her posting.

So it's scummy to move off of a main scum read, and it's scummy to move onto a main scum read? This doesn't make sense. Removing the pressure vote, sure, that makes sense. But I've been scumreading Lane for a while. It was at this point that I was actually comfortable with a Lane lynch today. As for Lane, yes, scum!Kuroi would show up on Earth 2. But can you look at that post and not say that it at least -looks- like a scumslip of the century? It wasn't a "I can push this as scummy". It's "I've been suspicious of Lane all game, and this stood out to me." I think you said you weren't sure I was actually scumhunting. But whenever I point out an opinion of why I think someone is scum, you automatically go to a scum motivation for it. This is starting to get confbiasy.

If Kuroi is Town here I’d read java as scum pretty strongly given his “Wagon formed too fast” commentary.

Xkfyu’s point at 377 regarding claiming a VT in an assumed Role Madness game (whether that assumption is valid is a different issue) is valid. And he gets some Town points for it. And immediately flushes them away with the “Feel better about Joe” comment in the same post. Scum have every reason to take that sort of stance when someone they know to be Town gets a quick wagon for Towncred in the case of an actual flip. That Xkfyu doesn’t even consider that in his read is troubling. I see the response to Telltale later but I stand by the assessment that he should have been giving Java no Town credit for the stance.

Thanks Telltale for affirming that my Town read on you to this point is well deserved with 379.

My mind boggles that everyone just immediately discounts the possibility that Earth-1 scum have fake-claims that would show the proper nomenclature for a VT claim. Be better ...

This is true. I don't think I've seen many theme games that didn't provide them.

Java couldn’t rolefish harder than at 442 if he tried.

Telltale did you have to go and shit on my Town-read with 470? Because a scum-read list that reads as a “pick the inactives as scum” list just really is at best lazy.

Are you saying that this makes you doubt your townread on her? Why are you discounting that chance that she is right with these? Also, didn't she affirm your townread on her? Which is it?

Think Clumsy’s 471 is pure buddying. Happy with my vote.

It's buddying because I share the same opinions? I quoted it because it was faster than just typing out the same thing. If having the same opinion as TTH is buddying her, then aren't you too with the scum theater thing? Isn't everyone buddying someone? Am I buddying anyone that I don't outright disagree with? WHEN DOES THE MADNESS END?

Nah but seriously, that's pretty weak. I can have the same opinions as someone else. At this point, it seems like you're just picking up any post of mine and saying "Yup, scum."

So far, I'm okay with Lane or Joe hanging today. Soren was rubbing me the wrong way yesterday, Magna is making me feel a little better about that slot, but only a bit.

[Clumsy]

You know, it bothers me sometimes that I'm usually in the bottom half of number of posts in games. But it's usually because I group everything together in big posts like this. Meh.

[Clumsy]

After a review of Clumsy, I also find that this fits more with his scum games than his town ones. Town Clumsy is a lot more assertive/aggressive than this.

You sure you don't have that backwards?

[Clumsy]

Mmhm. And the game that I got called out for being more assertive and aggressive than normal? I was scum. That was Buzzfeed.

[Clumsy]

I know, Nahdia did. But she was right.

[Clumsy]

Not ready to go into anything big, worked for 10 hours today when it was supposed to be maybe 5. Gonna sleep soon, I'll be on tomorrow. But one thing is concerning me here. This seems like an early claim, and even if it is true- This does not necessarily mean town.

Neighbors are players that can speak to each other. Unlike Masons, there is no guarantee made of any Neighbor's alignment. (...) In practice - and especially in Themed games - Neighbor is seen as an excuse to mix scum Neighbors where they would have been called bastard for doing so with a Masonry.

In fact, a large majority of games I've seen has 1 town neighbor at least. Why are you automatically assuming that it makes him town Kuroi?

[Clumsy]

Hey, I am not trying to confirm my alignment with my role, as I have seen games with a scum neighbor, but felt like claiming because everyone seems content with my lynch.

Ugh, missed this. I need sleep. I do still think it was early though.

If you're scum, you only have one other person who could confirm you - other scum. I'm not banking on you risking both of you unless you're town. I don't see you as the ballsy type. Either way, I see Clumsy approximately around as scummy as you so we can go to the "Javajoe24 scum topic" later on if it deems necessary.

It's not only other scum to confirm him if he's scum. He could be telling the truth about neighbor, and an actual neighbor could say he is indeed neighbors with them,

but that doesn't mean he is town.

[Clumsy]

Hey. I haven't been feeling well and my sleep is all screwed up. Slept for over 11 hours. Want to go back to sleep. I'm okay with Joe lynch. I believe he's at L-2? Not entirely sure. I'll get more up to date tomorrow hopefully.

[Clumsy]

Can't sleep. Gonna try to get a work in.

So it seems I am getting lynched today by general consensus, so I will go ahead and claim that I am a town Neighbor. I won't out my partner right now until they tell me in the neighborhood if they are ok with it. Now you know and can deliberate.

Just don't lynch me before I reveal who my partner is. I feel it is in the towns best interest to have that information. Just want to confirm before I jump the gun

I don't find this sus. It seemed clear to me that Joe meant he was asking the partner if they minded being outed. I'm not sure how it was misinterpreted?

Is moi the replacement for Soren? And the part about the reasons given was meant for the other game where I have strong reasons, my reasons here aren't as strong so don't necessarily trust them as much

Yes, he's that replacement. Are you that out of touch with this game?

[Clumsy]

Okay, actually awake now. Ugh.

Yeah, L-2. So I'll vote there.

VOTE: Javajoe

This is L-1.


And for the record, Spiderman is an awesome character. One of my favorites. Much more

relatable

. He eventually gets strong enough to be the third (?) strongest Avenger, behind Hulk and I think Thor? He's as smart as Reed Richards too, and has done his fair share of science and detective work. Probably could out-detective Robin on Mr. Freeze at least.


Deadline is approaching though, so we need to have anyone who hasn't checked in to get in here.

[Clumsy]

Let's start by having everyone say if they're the same alignment or not

You're right.

I'm scu-

...HEYO! Almost got me there!

Scu-? SCU-?!


Guys, I figured it out.


SCU......


BA.


Scuba! He's Aquaman! (but why....?)

[Clumsy]

I read that as the french word every time.

[Clumsy]

I'm neutral good man.

[Clumsy]

Nobody is saying of they're the same alignment or not

Oh, were you serious? I thought you were RVS derping around.

Everyone is going to say yes. There is not a single motivation to do otherwise. Town in both are going to tell the truth. Scum on one world and Town on the other are going to lie. Scum on both are going to be truthful but it will properly suggest they were lying if they ever flipped. It would be tantamount to game throwing for scum to not do so.

Did you expect great things from your question? What answer that was at all alignment indicative did you expect to get?

Nobody is saying of they're the same alignment or not

Are you saying you are third party clumsy?

He’s making a D&D joke folks …

100% correct on all points. You guys need better hobbies.

[Clumsy]

Yeah, we haven't heard your thoughts on anything yet. >_>

[Clumsy]

Also, is it just me, or is it feeling really awkward going through another Day 1 in the same game? I feel like everyone is kind of stalled.

[Clumsy]

It took me a few minutes there. -_- I need to take more medicine and go back to sleep.

[Clumsy]

If I had to guess, the fact that we got our new Rolecards before the message saying "Night one has started, send in night actions!" suggests that scum team Earth-2 had the kill/actions last night. If we mislynch here, I think scum team Earth-1 will get their night for Earth-1.

In fact, from the mod post:

All players have confirmed.

Night 1 begins on Earth-Two! It will end in 48 hours from this post.

So essentially, Night 1 hasn't happened on Earth-One yet.

[Clumsy]

Nobody is saying of they're the same alignment or not

Oh, were you serious? I thought you were RVS derping around.

Everyone is going to say yes. There is not a single motivation to do otherwise. Town in both are going to tell the truth. Scum on one world and Town on the other are going to lie. Scum on both are going to be truthful but it will properly suggest they were lying if they ever flipped. It would be tantamount to game throwing for scum to not do so.

Did you expect great things from your question? What answer that was at all alignment indicative did you expect to get?

Nobody is saying of they're the same alignment or not

Are you saying you are third party clumsy?

He’s making a D&D joke folks …

Honestly I was expecting someone to acknowledge it, but have an issue with it and avoid answering. Something like your post shows you have an issue with just answering outright. The hesitation reveals you could very well be town in one game and scum in another.

Clumsy's reaction also gives me the feeling they could be scum on earth 1 along with him being scummy there already.

VOTE: moi

My reaction where exactly? The D&D comment? If that's your push you're going to have to do better than that.

As for Xk, let me go back through Earth-One and see his thoughts again. Might open up some thoughts.

[Clumsy]

This isn't everything of course, but just some examples I pulled. Probably some better points to be made, but I'm not feeling well and just want to get some discussion going. In fact, previewing back through for formatting, it looks pretty lame. Whatever. I might do more later. I'll spoiler for ease on the eyes.

Spoiler: Wall

Reads list:

Town:
Lilith
Snarky
lane
Kuroi

Null:
Clumsy
TTH

Scum:
Javajoe (but not with Soren)
Soren (but not with Javajoe)


Those are in no particular order, and mostly based on gut, right now. So, come on, let's do this.

The interesting part here is that he was null-reading TTH, which many people were town reading.

No

I completely disagree.

Honestly, I'm not looking to talk about theory with you and I'll go ahead and warn you that I'm probably not going to answer questions of that nature.

Ok why's that?

These are a couple examples of interactions between the two. Pretty quickly, TTH just stops having anything to do with Xkfyu. A few possibilities here, but I maintain that TTH is probably town in Earth-One. I was going to say that this could be a reason that Xkfyu died in this world. One candidate, but it's made stronger if TTH is scum in Earth-One too. I don't think they are though.

Clumsy and javajoe's dislike for the wagon makes me like it more

Why?

Because they aren't in my town reads

How many scum are you expecting to be on each Earth?

2

You can see how that doesn't add up, right?

2

You can see how that doesn't add up, right?

Yeah... And?

Surely you don't need me to point out the faulty logic there.

Strong Town: TelltaleHeart
Lean Town: Lilith, Clumsy
Null: Soren, Javajoe
Lean Scum: Xkfyu, SnarkySnowman
Strong Scum: Lane

Here where's I am.

lane
TTH
Xkfyu/Soren/Snarky
Kuroi/Javajoe/Clumsy

Maybe I don't need you to explain it. But you'll have to explain why that's a problem now, and hasn't been a problem with you before

Having 3 scum reads in a game where there is very likely to have 2 isn't the problem.

However, using the fact that 2 of your scum reads don't like the wagon that just formed on your 3rd scum read as evidence that the wagon is good, is a problem, because no matter what, at least one of them is town.

Yeah id like to lynch javajoe.

Don't get me wrong. I get it. He's pretty damn scummy looking, and the points against him are good. In my experience though, the scummiest players in D1 almost always flip town.

Then who?

I'm not exactly sure yet. I have you and Kuroi as strong town, followed by TTH and Lilith who I think are probably town.

So, one of Clumsy, Joe, Snarky, and Soren being my choices for today.

I'm gonna start here:

VOTE: Clumsy

A -lot- of interaction with Lane here. But Kuroi had even more pushing against Lane. If Lane is scum on this Earth, would he kill Kuroi? Or would it look too obvious? Would he go with Xkfyu instead? What if Kuroi was his partner here. Eh. A lot of if's and would's.

(I mean, objectively, why Snarky. Not just from this wagon-not-moving thing.)

Because of balancing issues. And replenishing for VT? I am only asking for one other to confirm my theory.

The more vt's that claim, the better chance scum have of hitting pr's. Is what clumsy is getting at

This.

And I can't tell if javajoe is rolefishing or just didn't think of that.

This fence-sitting post. I think Snarky knows that Joe is town, but he's leaving his options open so that he can either push him on it, or WK him for it.

Plus the wagon-not-moving thing.

A little bit of pushing on Snarky too. It'd be easy for Snarky to coast by on his meta of not doing anything as town. That's way too easy to fake. Could be Snarky here?

So, I think it's one of the following scum teams:

Snarky/TTH
Snarky/MoI
MoI/TTH
Lilith/TTH

Hmm...now that I write it out like that, perhaps TTH is the better lynch.

Yeah. I like it. Let's do that.

UNVOTE: SnarkySnowman

VOTE: TellTaleHeart

Even more pushing on TTH.

If I had to pick one of these to cling to, it'd be TTH here. (It is still NKA, which is tricky and unreliable, but it's something to get discussion going.) Thoughts anyone?

[Clumsy]

Whoa, L-1? You're right, it is. Didn't even realize.

Lane

, did you realize?

[Clumsy]

...Oookay? And no, scum will just say that they're the same, because that's what town will do. If they were scum in one, and got hung there, they would just say that they were lying in the other, whether they are scum or not.

It's like the riddle of two paths. 2 men sitting between the paths, one always lies, one always tells the truth. You can't just straight up ask them which way is the right way, because you don't know which one is lying.

Is Magna scum as well for post 720? Would I be scum if I just said "Yes"?

Your logic is very very flawed here Lane.

[Clumsy]

I can't answer for Magna, but for me, it's a useless question with a useless answer. If I was seriously going to answer of course I would say I was town in both. That goes for if I was scum or town. But because it was such a useless question, I made a joke about it. Why would only town answer that way?

"Plus there's the issue about claiming that they're the same, and get lynched as scum." But anything other than claiming as town (same) in both, would be working against them. They have no reason to not say they're town in both.

P-edit: If that's your major case on me or Magna, I think you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone of it.

[Clumsy]

What's the difference between joking about the question to "avoid" it, and ignoring the question?

[Clumsy]

There are other cases for scum magna.

What's the other case for scum Magna on this earth? That's what you're implying at least, that it's on this Earth. What's he done to ping you so far? Because all I see in his ISO is jokes so far.

Basically I think you're pulling things out of your ass here.

[Clumsy]

Well, I can prove that this is wrong, because I know my alignments. You can't take my word for it, but I'm going to drop this here, because there's no getting through to you with you standing so firmly behind faulty logic. And no, not yet, but we have time to get there, and I don't need to latch onto a poor case like this for a read.

Hmmm. I'm sure this changes something, although I'm not sure how.

Rereading back through, I was thinking about this. I wonder how the balance has changed in regards to scum/town PRs with a night start on Earth-Two? I've never done a night start game, so I have no idea the implications.

[Clumsy]

Okay, forcing discussion time. Lane is town. Thoughts?

[Clumsy]

Talking Earth-Two right now.

[Clumsy]

I don't think scum would use such a weak and illogical case, especially this early in the day. Seems like a towny trying to catch someone, although in a flawed way.

[Clumsy]

Not that he's acting too scummy, but that he would use this as his attack.

[Clumsy]

Phone posting. @Magna: That's perfectly fine to disagree, it's not a strong read for me in any case. Lane's whole thing here is completely illogical and pointless, and while I hate it when people dismiss scummy behavior as too scummy to be scum, in this particular case, my gut is telling me town. This read could change, and fairly easily at that. The reason I bring it up is because holy shit thread stagnation. At least it gives something to talk about, like right now. Gotta get discussion going.


Oh, and for the record I'm not calling Lane dumb. The point he's pushing is disingenuous, but I don't mean Lane is. I sincerely apologize if that's how that came across.

[Clumsy]

@Lillith Scummy behavior can come from town too. I stand by what I said, but I don't see this coming from scum. Mostly gut though.

[Clumsy]

What am I doing so differently in the two worlds to get opposite reactions?

[Clumsy]

LMAO. I'm on mobile right now, I'll do something substantial later, but that's hilarious.

For serious though, Snarky, please actually play the game?

[Clumsy]

Probably going to reply out of order here, doing multiple things at a time here. Also, hi Ranger! Are you following me around in games?

Wow Kuroi made an effort post. Where the hell was that on Earth1? I disagree with some of the reads (Clumsy is getting too much Town credit for reasons I’m about to disclose, Don’t see how you get Telltale at anything but Null so far) I don’t see that much effort if the goal is to push on Snarky when I’ve been the most viable wagon so far.

Since Lane replaced out I’m never getting the answer I was asking for from him so on to my explanation that Lilith was inquiring about –

Setting aside that “Why are you Alive” is a crappy argument in and of itself – the fact that “Why is Magna Alive” was even jokingly floated as a reason to vote me is scummy. I’ve seen it thrown at me as scum in the past early in games when I don’t die and someone else does. But the specific reason why I’d lean on it actually being a possible alignment tell is the following –

Xkfyu has been killed!

On Earth-Two, he was J'onn J'onnz, Superhero Body Double

Nobody has blinked at this flip other than to remark “Huh, Xk died”. Read his role again – Body Double. This isn’t what I’d call standard terminology for MS but that flip to me reads pretty clearly as a Bodyguard. I mean that’s exactly what a Body Double is … someone you stands in for someone else.

I’d wager very likely that Xk bodyguarded me last Night and that’s’ why he’s dead.

And not a single one of you even put any effort into parsing that flip. It is why Clumsy getting Town cred for his “decipher the Earth1 reasons why Xk was killed” post is unwarranted – it is predicated on Xk being directly killed as opposed to taking a bullet for someone else.

And why I immediately twigged to at least a couple of people using the "Why isn't MoI Dead?" as a basis for an early wagon, no matter how thin the reasoning is later admitted to being. I've seen scum make this exact play in the past.

@Lilith and Kuroi

– why didn’t you think more clearly about Xk’s flip?

This is very interesting. I saw that and meant to look it up... and totally didn't. I was thinking it was something similar to a bodyguard, but I admit that I assumed (which is badwrong) that it was just a random target that got lucky. I mean, the odds of the bodyguard and the scum picking the same target in the night is already low, but definitely not impossible and shouldn't be discounted.

A quick google search gave me nothing about a body double role. I'm guessing it's a modified bodyguard that doesn't kill the attacker, but that's just my guess. We could actually ask him on Earth-One.

Hey TTH, you actually voted me in 736.. So my 789 which you claim to be the reason for voting me could not possibly have been the actual reason.

This actually really bothers me, why would TTH provide a fake reason for voting me when she could have simply said "it was an RVS vote"?

Wow... good catch, I totally missed that. I want to hear about this.

So far I'm also not liking Snarky, suddenly more vocal and everything on this earth? Isn't active Snarky Scum!Snarky?

I'll do more later today I think.

[Clumsy]

Clumsy:
- General rule. Clumsy is speaking with all of us in a very fluid and natural motion. Gut feeling he's town.
- 769 This is the first post I didn't like and I just noticed it now. The vibe I'm getting from, "I'm not sure how I feel about this, but I'll get back to you" doesn't feel genuine.
- He delivers a wall on 771. It looks like a lost, but appears to be some fluff. My gut still says town, but no longer strong town. More like lean town.
- Agree with 793. Lane's logic is flawed.
- 834 If you're going to make such a statement and declare someone town, backing your case with, "gut" is weak support.

Couple things here. You're being hypocritical with the "gut" thing. Firstly, my townread on Lane was not a strong townread, it was a townlean on early Day 1 (part 2). I pushed discussion though, because we had nothing going on. Also, you say you have a gut feeling with me as town. Now, this is different than my slight townlean on Lane, because in the line 2 down from it, you say it was a strong town read. You say that "gut" is a weak support to declare someone town with, and then you do that exact thing yourself.

[Clumsy]

Phone posting. @Magna: That's perfectly fine to disagree, it's not a strong read for me in any case. Lane's whole thing here is completely illogical and pointless, and while I hate it when people dismiss scummy behavior as too scummy to be scum, in this particular case, my gut is telling me town.

This read could change, and fairly easily at that.

The reason I bring it up is because holy shit thread stagnation. At least it gives something to talk about, like right now. Gotta get discussion going.


Oh, and for the record I'm not calling Lane dumb. The point he's pushing is disingenuous, but I don't mean Lane is. I sincerely apologize if that's how that came across.

[Clumsy]

This is the progression of posts. I left out your V/LA posts though, no content there.

Everything on Earth-Two up until the vote on Lillith.

Spoiler: Up to the vote

There's still a world to be saved.
Want to come along for the ride?

VOTE: lane

VOTE: magna

I don't get the D&D joke

Oh.

VOTE: lilith

So I'm not sure exactly what to make of discussion on World 1 while on World 2 - feels like trying to be productive in a way that isn't relevant to whom we're actually lynching. So my vote isn't exactly random.

I disagree. Clumsy here is trying to look for an explanation for Xk to be the nightkill. Since we've only been in Earth One until now, the Earth Two scum team has to decide their kill based on Earth One play. It might be relevant to discuss Earth One play in this situation. I don't like that you're so quick to dismiss it.

VOTE: Snarky

That's what led me to vote you.

He couldn't have been killed for role-related reasons because we didn't even have our role PMs until the day ended. Even though I was townreading him on Earth 1, he didn't particularly strike me as an effective scumhunter from his Earth 1 posting (no offense). I think a parsimonious explanation for the kill is a familiarity with meta, which I gathered from Post 19 and Post 251 among others.

If you think I initially voted Lilith for

anything

she did, you are seriously misreading.

So I'm not sure exactly what to make of discussion on World 1 while on World 2 - feels like trying to be productive in a way that isn't relevant to whom we're actually lynching. So my vote isn't exactly random.

I disagree. Clumsy here is trying to look for an explanation for Xk to be the nightkill. Since we've only been in Earth One until now, the Earth Two scum team has to decide their kill based on Earth One play. It might be relevant to discuss Earth One play in this situation. I don't like that you're so quick to dismiss it.

VOTE: Snarky

That's what led me to vote you.

He couldn't have been killed for role-related reasons because we didn't even have our role PMs until the day ended. Even though I was townreading him on Earth 1, he didn't particularly strike me as an effective scumhunter from his Earth 1 posting (no offense). I think a parsimonious explanation for the kill is a familiarity with meta, which I gathered from Post 19 and Post 251 among others.

So you're saying that you initially voted Lilith for nothing she did, right? That means RVS, right? I think I'm getting that right, correct me otherwise. But if that's true, why? You had an RVS on Lane already. And below you said "That's what led me to vote you." So you're saying there's a reason for the vote. But as I've shown above, there doesn't seem to be anything regarding the reason that you're pushing here for the vote. It's all contradictory. I'm sorry if this is actually irritating you, or if we're all misunderstanding this, but just getting mad and leaving isn't going to solve this. Care to actually sit down (when you're done with your thing) and explain what's going on instead of just saying that we're not thinking? Because that's not explaining anything. It's just ATE at this point. I think the thing that we're so hung up on is that you say that it was the reason you voted there, but that didn't exist at the time of the vote.

[Clumsy]

Kuroi, I think we're misunderstanding each other or splitting hairs. What do you mean that I'm using gut reaction as an excuse?

[Clumsy]

If you think I initially voted Lilith for

anything

she did, you are seriously misreading.

So I'm not sure exactly what to make of discussion on World 1 while on World 2 - feels like trying to be productive in a way that isn't relevant to whom we're actually lynching. So my vote isn't exactly random.

I disagree. Clumsy here is trying to look for an explanation for Xk to be the nightkill. Since we've only been in Earth One until now, the Earth Two scum team has to decide their kill based on Earth One play. It might be relevant to discuss Earth One play in this situation. I don't like that you're so quick to dismiss it.

VOTE: Snarky

That's what led me to vote you.

He couldn't have been killed for role-related reasons because we didn't even have our role PMs until the day ended. Even though I was townreading him on Earth 1, he didn't particularly strike me as an effective scumhunter from his Earth 1 posting (no offense). I think a parsimonious explanation for the kill is a familiarity with meta, which I gathered from Post 19 and Post 251 among others.

They're actually both in this same thread.

[Clumsy]

.......Phantom quotes strike again

[Clumsy]

Oh wow. I'd like to hear the reasoning here Ranger. When you get there I mean.

And while we are on Earth-Two, Earth-One is still relevant. Maybe not RIGHT NOW, but it is. We can actively compare people between the two, and we will be back on Earth-One eventually. Besides, Ranger is catching up. Let her do her thing.

[Clumsy]

Ranger says Xk being the nightkill points to me being scum in both worlds here. However, in 958, she says that my being scum would explain why I tried to wagon Magna. But you can't have it both ways; I can't be scum because I both nightkilled Xk and am trying to lynch my NK Magna who didn't die.

You're correct.

It cannot both be true that Xkfyu protected against a nightkill, and Xkfyu was the nightkill.
One, or the other, must be true.

This is pretty much how I read it, wasn't thinking it was an incongruence at all.


TTH, and everyone else for that matter, what do you think of Ranger and Magna going for the throat so quickly on one another? There was no middle ground, it was immediately 100% scum. Thoughts?

[Clumsy]

Well, here's the thing. Derps happen. I've made them, Ranger's made them. It happens. HOWEVER. In a recent game with Ranger (ended), she came in and derp hammered someone, claiming to not have read yet. She was venge-killed for it, and turned out she was the last scum. So I definitely see what you're talking about here. I just don't know if that's the case or not. Honestly, I don't have a read on her alignment, or yours for that matter, on Earth-Two yet. I do feel like one of you is probably scum. I'm going to have to watch a bit more and go back and read my games with Ranger to get a stance. (Seriously, how many games is this now Ranger? O.o) Sorry I don't have a hard read for you right this second, I suck early game. I'll get back to you on that.

Also, let me make sure I have this right. Ranger thinks you're scum on Earth-One, and you think she's scum on Earth-Two, right? Ranger, what makes you think Magna is town on Earth-Two exactly?

[Clumsy]

Ah, okay.

[Clumsy]

No wonder I didn't get aquaman - he was one of my top choices!

VOTE: Clumsy for the hell of it.

I'm going back through today now that I have a day off. But before reading through, here's what reads I have so far.

TTH is sitting in the middle for me. Incredibly awkward phrasing of a reasoning she had with Lilith, but I can buy it for now.

Joe is also at null, although slightly lower. Mostly lack of interaction so far. I don't like that he's completely discounting analyzing Earth-One. Snowman is an easy vote as well. Could be coasting?

I don't like Snowman here either, and I actually almost put my vote there. I would have checked votes anyway, but that VC was helpful. I think Snowman will seem scummy anyway, either as town or scum.

I do feel like there's scum between Ranger and Magna, although I'm not sure which Earth(s). I'm also a bit unsure of Kuroi, something feels different there.

My readthrough will focus on Snowman, Ranger, Kuroi, and Magna mostly. I didn't realize deadline was so close, I'll have something better for you guys at some point today.

[Clumsy]

^also not sure which world, but I figure Earth two isn't a bad start; also, I was townreading lane in Earth One and not so much here, so that's still tinging my read on the slot.

This has been bothering me every time I read it so far. It seemed like a pushback vote, a push to get you to stop looking here, and the reasoning for voting here was added as an afterthought.

[Clumsy]

No wonder I didn't get aquaman - he was one of my top choices!

VOTE: Clumsy for the hell of it.

Feels a little forced to me. Overjustifying an RVS vote. Gripes are small-ish though.

ONE:

{Clumsy, Xkfyu, TellTaleHeart}
{lilith}
{MagnaofIllusion}
{SnarkySnowman}
{Kuroi}
6.

Do you seriously expect us to believe that your character has no powers???

Uhh...about that.

I think Kuroi's scum, but it's definitely not for that.

ONE:

{Xkfyu, TellTaleHeart}
{Clumsy}
{MagnaofIllusion, Kuroi, lilith}
{SnarkySnowman}
Bit of a soft reset, as of 15.

ONE:

{Xkfyu, TellTaleHeart}
{Clumsy}
{Kuroi, lilith}
{SnarkySnowman}
{MagnaofIllusion}
Guess who had a scum entrance on page 20?

What caused this turnaround on Kuroi? And what exactly about the entrance pinged you?

(Yes, I know this was Earth-One.)

[Clumsy]

...this isn't your full read, right? You're still posting more tomorrow?

Yeah, I just wanted to tear apart your readlist for now. It's not exactly an OMGUS vote.

Can we get followup on this Snowman?

[Clumsy]

As I've stated in the read list that I have a gut feeling that you're town, but I dislike a lot of what you've written. I'll be honest, I'd really like to abstain from giving my opinion on Snarky on Earth One until we get back there. He's the kind of guy I always want to lynch, but a bit less so there.

Lane, sorry to see you go. Take care of yourself.

Replying to Snowman:
- Lilith, how is it forced?
- MoI, I speak more about something as I don't like it than I do... although I could easily say the same about you. "Not a lot of content from someone who claims to be town."
- Clumsy, how is that bullshit?
- Joe, he didn't post a lot. What more do you want from me?

Snowman, then it's not shortly, is it?
Eh is not a good excuse.
You're still not being useful.

If you disagree, want to set up with a read list of your own?

So wish-wash. Lynch Kuroi please.

You didn't answer any of these questions here. This 2 sentence answer is, as Kuroi said, not helpful at all.


So far I am okay with a Snowman lynch. My only problem is that there's a non-zero chance he's town and it's just Snowman being Snowman, and we lose a lynch and lose a town. Although I'd rather it be here than LyLo.

[Clumsy]

Yeah, I'm not really seeing any strategic value to "not realizing it's Earth-Two" here with Ranger. There's strategic value to a mislynch "accident". Here, where we had plenty of time, and everyone corrected her very quickly, I don't see it as any possible scum intention.

[Clumsy]

Okay, this is where I'm at I think.

[Ranger]
[Kuroi]
[TTH, Lilith]
[Joe, Magna]
[SnarkySnowman]


Although, Ranger, why are you strong townreading me? To be frank, I don't think I've been doing that great of a job so far. Why so high on your list?

We still have 3 days to talk about all of this, so I'm refraining from putting my vote on Snowman, but if nothing much changes, that's where it's going.

[Clumsy]

Because it's the only thing bothering me about it, and not really all that much. It's a minor thing that I might be overthinking. She is lower than TTH though.

[Clumsy]

Go into the full reply menu. There's a button that says "post".

It will give you this (without asterisks) [*post][/*post]

Put the number in the middle.

[*post]992[/*post]
992

[Clumsy]

It was one question. Why so aggressive?

[Clumsy]

Yeah, maybe I should be scum reading her a bit more than I am. Hrm. Your vote is there, so I'm guessing that's your top lynch for the day? What are your thoughts on Snowman's claim?


And as sad as that makes me that I'm a bit scummy anyways, I guess that's a pretty good explanation.

[Clumsy]

SnarkySnowman is lying. I'm gladiator.

I don't think there's one this Earth? Do you?

Was this a badly placed joke? Or what's going on here?

(also I love the "Shazam!" flavor of gladiate here.)

[Clumsy]

Yeah, Kuroi, we need some explanation here please.

[Clumsy]

SnarkySnowman is lying. I'm gladiator.

I don't think there's one this Earth? Do you?

[Clumsy]

So the reason for fakeclaiming VT was...

I claimed VT in Earth One, not Earth Two.

True. Ugh. Guys. We have 4 hours left and I will be away during that time. We need a consensus, NOW. I was wanting to lynch Snowman pretty badly before all of this, but Kuroi has been doing some really strange things. In fact, Kuroi, why did you not use your gladiate when Snarky claimed his if you didn't believe he was gladiator? I can think of a few reasons but I want to hear yours. I really hope you're on before I leave.

And again: "I don't think there's one this Earth? Do you?" What does this mean? Because it's looking like you know something we don't.

[Clumsy]

Now that I'm going back to work today, my activity level will spike. I promise.

Snarky using gladiator on me because I counterclaimed him is crap. I said that I am a gladiator then asked how people thought if there could be more than one. So the position that Snarky put us in is TvT, except that gladiator isn't strictly a town role:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Gladiator

As far as the asking to replace out, I've asked the same to Soren who put out a comparable level of activity. I've also noted in other games that he doesn't scum hunt.

SnarkySnowman is lying. I'm gladiator.

I don't think there's one this Earth? Do you?

I feel like you're trying to back out of this now. You outright said that he's lying about being a gladiator. So that means that you thought it was a fake claim. Which is something only scum should do (unless very particular circumstances that don't matter here). So why are you calling it a TvT? Shouldn't you think that he's scum? If you thought he was town, would you still 'counter claim'? This doesn't make sense to me at all, and then calling it a TvT seems like you're pushing for a possible no lynch to get out of this today.

I also really like Snowman's 995. But what really does it for me is my point above. This should not be TvT to you. You counterclaimed for a reason. You were a major pusher for Snarky's lynch. You pushed the lynch here telling us he was scum. Now you call it town. I think I made my decision.

VOTE: KuroiXHF

[Clumsy]

You essentially said "Now Snarky put us in a TvT gladiate, except not necessarily". O.o

I do think that if there are 2 gladiators, one being scum makes more sense than 0. But this isn't really helping you here. If you flip town, I think we should look into Snowman more. If Snowman flips town, then you.

Where is Everyone else??

P- edot: you have to remember it's not onvious to us

[Clumsy]

That's assuming there will be no lynch today. Do you remember the BuzzFeed game? Where it didn't make sense for scum to have the other wannabe vigilante? That kind of reasoning lost town the game. You have to be careful with that kind of reasoning.

[Clumsy]

Um... We have 45 minutes guys... ._.

[Clumsy]

Well, with two minutes remaining, it looks like a no lynch. :/

[Clumsy]

Wow, I'm actually surprised Kuroi flipped town. However... Why was he the scum kill? They had to believe the claim. And they had to worry about being Gladiated... Snarky would have been the target. Snarky, why did you and your buddy kill him?

[Clumsy]

Time of Gladiate: Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:02 am
Time of End of Day: Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:18 pm

Ranger's not this game posts:

Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:14 pm
-No posts-
Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:05 am

Magna's not this game posts:

Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:23 pm
-no posts-
Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:35 am

Joe's not this game posts:

Jun 07, 2016 5:33 pm
Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:44 pm
Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:15 pm
Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:12 pm
Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:37 pm
Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:22 pm
etc., etc..


So Ranger, who has a definite pattern to when she posts on this site, (nights, around 8 P.M. to early morning, every night it seems) was not on conveniently the night of the no lynch. Activity starts up an hour after the thread closes. She had to know the deadline, she doesn't seem like a type of player who misses that. And the times are very suspect.

Magna is about the same as Ranger, just much less of a pattern.

Joe was actually on and posting at the time in another thread, but not here despite the deadline. He posted a lot during the time actually.


I'm going to want explanations here. Which of you is the scum-buddy that was waiting for a no lynch?

[Clumsy]

But because it makes no sense, doesn't that increase the chances that he'd do it? This is full of WIFOM, but I'm not sure I'm ready to let that go. Also, you didn't fully answer my question Ranger. You have a very definite schedule with the time that you do things. Almost every single day, you get on in the evening, somewhere around 8 or 9. You stay on until the small hours of the morning, posting on games here and there. You vanish an hour before the Gladiator, and you don't come back until an hour after the lynch. That's over and tired day of time, and the exact time that you should be on. It seems like you were purposely evading the thread, and the site in general, so we couldn't call you out on it. The exact times being pretty much an hour off of each other is very strange, don't you think?

To everyone else: I am now considering the definite possibility of a snarky Snowman and Ranger scum team. I'm not 100% on this yet, but it makes sense to me. What's everybody else's Thoughts with this? It just seems like they might have an ability to let them talk during the day, decided this would be for the best, and Ranger avoids the thread for the rest of the time, resulting in a no lynch, making it look better for her not to hammer the town. This way, a widely town read player (Ranger) can come in and dismiss the suspicion on Snowman as " he would never do that, it's scum suicide". But why would a different scum team do it? If it's a different scum team, that's 2 mislynches in a row they messed up. Ranger stays off a town wagon, pushes that the town wagon has scum on it, dismisses Snarky as scum. I need thoughts on this from Town.

At work or would articulate more. Be back later

[Clumsy]

Joe, why do you think scum killed Kuroi? He was almost mislynched. He would have been easy to push today. I probably still would have been there. Why not kill someone that was strong for town? Like Ranger. Or Magna. For the PR? But they would have to be worried about him targeting them, otherwise they could leave it to be used wrongly and possibly get 2 mislynches.

For today though, I think I'd rather hang Snarky. If I'm wrong, it'll cause the least damage to town.

VOTE: Snarky

[Clumsy]

Honestly, I was expecting him to be the scum out of the two of you. But that isn't the case. And I think everybody has already said that to town Gladiators isn't very likely, although it's not impossible by any means. I'm also trying to think about why he would be the night kill. The only explanation that I came up with right away was either but I have explained above, or another scum team trying to frame you snarky. But I found that weird, because I don't think another scum team would have to frame you that way, since after who is flip town, you will look really bad anyway. So I was more land or the first one. If anybody has a better explanation of what happened, I am all ears. If I'm wrong, I would like to be proven so.

Sorry if there any typos in this, I'm using voice to text, because I am driving. Hope you can figure out any typos.

[Clumsy]

Maybe not, but I don't think I'm willing to let that go just yet. The times match up way too perfectly, and your pattern of on time is very concerning.

Besides the day of the no lynch, from March 13th you haven't missed a SINGLE DAY of posting on MafiaScum, with the exceptions of April 19th (which you posted on the 20th after 1 a.m., so kind of the night of the 19th), April 9th, March 27th, and the site downtime. In three months, you've missed arguably TWO DAYS of posting. That's 98% of days you've posted in that time span. I'm sure the trend continues, but I didn't want to dig past 100 pages of posts from you (Yes, I went through 100 pages of posts to get this information. Shoot me.)

I don't think this pattern should be ignored that you happen to not show up just at the right moment to avoid all of the gladiation business. The rest of town needs to hop in here and tell me if I'm crazy or if I'm actually onto something here. But this is my biggest read/lead so far.

[Clumsy]

I was sitting here wondering where the whole game list has gone, and then I realized. There's only 7 of us. ._. 2 scum, 5 town. If mislynch today, LyLo tomorrow.

I'm also okay with a Ranger lynch as of right now, but I want to hear from Magna when he gets back, TTH when they get back.

[Clumsy]

While we're waiting for everyone here, Lillith, do you think Snarky or Ranger is the better lynch today? Why?

[Clumsy]

I don't recognize them either! Except for the hawks that is. Do you have anything to add discussion wise?

Oh. Really? Then this complicates things. Hrm.

[Clumsy]

So that means 1 of a few different things.

-Doctor saved maf kill
-Roleblocker/Jailkeeper
-Bulletproof
-TTH is scum buddies with Ranger/Snarky and covering up for them. More likely Ranger.
-Maf also targeted Kuroi
-Maf no killed.

Approximate rough order in which I find them believable.

[Clumsy]

And while you might think it's a bogus reason, I think it's a strong lead. Unless you think there's a better trail elsewhere?

[Clumsy]

I agree with this on most points, but I do not think that this makes Tell Tale Heart proven town. Like I said before, she could be scum covering up for somebody else that is under suspicion today. No most likely that person would be you, so I can understand why you would have checked it is, but it could also be snarky to an extent. She is in no way confirmed town because there is no way to check against that.

Of course, town would not lie about this. But, objectively, do you think that this would be a valid scum play?

[Clumsy]

Ew, speech to text errors. Check to this should be object to this. I hope you can figure out the rest

[Clumsy]

I think we may need to slow down here. Magna hasn't even gotten back in thread yet.

[Clumsy]

What do you think of my case on Ranger? I know your vote is already there, but do you think my argument holds any water or not?

[Clumsy]

-distant grumbling is heard-

I suppose that's fair. Mrghh. Let me rethink for a while.

[Clumsy]

I'm finding Magna convincing. I'm down to lynch Ranger. VOTE: Ranger

L-1.

[Clumsy]

Then who?

[Clumsy]

I was asking Snowman, snarky.

[Clumsy]

Actually

UNVOTE:

There's a lot more time to go and I want more time to think through things. FOS is still here though.

[Clumsy]

As of right now, I'd be okay with Ranger lynch, but we have plenty of time. I'm not going to put off until deadline though.

Joe, can you say what that is? Or no?

[Clumsy]

Mmkay.

[Clumsy]

TTH is not confirmed town. It looks good because of the claim, but we're not at 100% there because the scum aren't going to stand up and claim that their kill didn't go through. If Ranger flips scum, we should look into this.

It also seems like Ranger is holding her theory for ransom for the Mass claim. If she is scum, she could be searching for the doctor for her partner.

Pedit Good question. Work time, but I'm liking Joe more and more.

[Clumsy]

I get that if you're actually Town Ranger, the mass claim is integral to your theory, but I don't like the way it looks right now

[Clumsy]

I personally think it's Joe and Lilith. MoI and Ranger are clearly trying to solve this earth, and are completely off the table for me. You as well, clumsy.

VOTE: Ranger

Actually I think I'm willing to sheep this one.

What happened here? What's the transition Snarky?

[Clumsy]

Why are we suddenly jumping to Snarky after all the talk about Ranger?

[Clumsy]

That's a good point. I go from this:

{Clumsy, Kuroi, Javajoe}
{TellTaleHeart}
{MagnaofIllusion}
{SnarkySnowman}
{lilith}
36.
VOTE: lilith.

To this:

For what it's worth: current theory places it as being a {lilith, Clumsy} scumteam.

Note that in every read from her before this, I was on the town side, often at the highest listing. What happened there Ranger?

[Clumsy]

6 Days to decide. As I'm sitting here now, I can see

Ranger/TTH team

Ranger/Snarky team

--------------------------------------------------------------

Ranger/Magna team

Ranger/Lillith team

In order of likelihood, and the latter two would be because of bussing, but I don't really think it's likely. Basically I want to lynch Ranger. I do have a concern though, and that's Snarky. Snarky is in a bad place, if he's town or scum. If he's town, his role is likely to get him in trouble. If he's scum, he's in a corner. What's giving me pause is him pushing against Ranger. Could be distancing for whichever gets lynched though.

I think Joe is town regardless of any of these flips, I don't think there's any association to draw there. Tell me if you disagree.

I want thoughts on the above before I put intent down, and I really don't want anyone else claiming in the meantime, please.

[Clumsy]

Whooaa, over-reaction much. Wow that turned quickly. Yeah, totally comfortable with lynching this now. Why are you so hard sold on Snarky being town anyway? Because...

Did you miss this ranger?

Did you miss me already having claimed, Javajoe? Intent implies there's something you're waiting for. The only thing there would be to wait on from me is my theory. Which, quite explicitly, I say should wait until after massclaim. Because I've already given everything else relevant. MagnaofIllusion is town this earth. I firmly believe you are also town. TellTaleHeart is confirmed town. Ergo, {SnarkySnowman, Clumsy, lilith} has the two scum. And my vote's on {Clumsy, lilith}.

Which is very recent by the way. Yeah, you think that it's me and Lilith, but you include Snarky down there and you're now talking about him as if he's confirmed town. I think YOU know he's town.

[Clumsy]

Then walk me through your thought process from one to the other please.

[Clumsy]

Just waiting until Ranger is back. Still comfortable lynching there.

Also, ow Magna, my feelings. :'(

[Clumsy]

Back from V/LA. At this point I'm getting tired of waiting for action. I have yet to see a reason why I should be rethinking my read on Ranger. And there have been now at least pushes for two alternate wagons in Lillith and Snarky.

Clumsy you need to actually do something other than sit with no vote on anyone waiting for others to do something themselves.

Well my vote would be going on Ranger, which would be a hammer. So...

We have time, and I'm waiting for an answer from Ranger. What would you like me to do, go ahead and hammer? If Ranger IS town (Which I highly disvelieve) I want this information and a chance to get the right lynch. I'm totally for Ranger and TTH team though, and it will take a lot to change my mind here.

[Clumsy]

Although we only have 3 days left
Much less than I thought. Ranger, you better get in here soon if you're town.

[Clumsy]

I think so. Look at how hard Ranger was looking for the vig. Outright calls out for a vig to claim, when there's no real indication for it to have been a vig kill. There was no second kill. And the way TTH went about announcing it felt faked. The association feels right too. Could very well not be what happened, but I feel like it's a decent possibility. Second choice after TTH is Snarky though.

[Clumsy]

Unless a vig comes forth and claims the Kuroi kill, I'm gonna have to assume that it was scum.

In that case, I actually

wouldn't

see SnarkySnowman as scum: it'd quite literally be suicide to kill his counterclaim, and Kuroi was one vote short of being

lynched

yesterday, and would have been lynched today.

Instead,
VOTE: lilith.
This is what I want to do.

I vigged Kuroi last night. Sorry.

I don't think that's something to be sorry about. Be it the shooting or the claiming. I'd have done the same in your shoes, and if Kuroi's honest, he probably would say he'd have shot himself, too. There were two gladiator claims. SnarkySnowman's power was confirmed. His claim was more sketchy. We were going to lynch one of them today, and very easily may have lynched the other the day after, for better or for worse.

As for the claiming...that tells us, short of scum having legitimately shot Kuroi (in which case...lol?),

1. TellTaleHeart is confirmed town.
2. We have a town role, be it offensively or defensively, that stopped a kill.
3. In the case of {doctor, Jailkeeper, roleblocker}, I'd claim your target.
4. Doctor? If it's not TellTaleHeart, that player would be the scum's nightkill and therefore confirmed town. (If it was, stay silent.)
5. Roleblocker? Congratulations, you blocked scum. Out it for a free scum lynch.
6. Jailkeeper? Claim so we can use judgement on whether it was a block or kill.
7. If the stopped kill was not caused by one of the above three, stay silent.

~~@_@~~

I've been typing out a post to Clumsy about how his theory is based on a bogus assumption.
I was trying to come up with a cute breadcrumb to Ranger's mention of a vig.
But I feel like any attempt for me to slow dance this would probably lead to more confusion than clarity.
So I'll just come out and say it.

I vigged Kuroi last night. Sorry.

I don't like this progression. Ranger opens with the vig thing that sounds like it's straight up asking a partner to claim the vig shot, TTH's post feels fake, and I don't think they've even attacked each other on this earth at all. I don't think they've looked into each other being scum at all. The ONLY negative post between the two is that Ranger thinks TTH's play on this earth "Isn't as strong" as on Earth-1. TTH then floats from middle to near top on the readlists. Hell, TTH's ISO search for "Ranger" literally has 1 hit, and that's TTH talking against Ranger's lynch. I feel this is the strongest association in this game.

[Clumsy]

Also, my lynch order would be Ranger>TTH>Snarky>Lillith. I'd have to rethink if Ranger flipped town though.

[Clumsy]

Magna, what I'm doing actually is good for town. We don't need to be Hasty about things. I'm asking for a full explanation like this, which thank you Ranger, this was great, in the event that Ranger flips town. We will have her full read list and observations for when we come back to this earth. Based on this, if Ranger does flip town, I will be looking at Lilith. Of course, it also looks bad on me. If she flips scum, we can just ignore this. I don't think this is hurting anything at all. I get that this game is taking a while, but I don't see how this is a bad thing.

[Clumsy]

Then walk me through your thought process from one to the other please.

We start Earth-2 with this:

{Clumsy}
{Kuroi}
{TellTaleHeart, lilith, Javajoe}
{SnarkySnowman}
{MagnaofIllusion}

I would have to check to see what the basis for Magna being so low and you being so high was, but I liked Kuroi's entrance. SnarkySnowman felt about the same on this Earth as last Earth, and at the time, I didn't have him as a townread (he was a candidate for being scum). The others were null.

I then came to the conclusion, "One of Magna/lilith is scum in this Earth, but not the other", creating this:

{Clumsy}
{Kuroi, Javajoe}
{TellTaleHeart, lilith}
{SnarkySnowman}
{MagnaofIllusion}
But if Magna flips town, place lilith in his spot instead.

Javajoe's posting began to look town, so he moved up. I reassessed, and looking at the posts, lilith felt the same between worlds whereas MagnaofIllusion felt VASTLY different. That produced this:

{Clumsy}
{Kuroi, Javajoe}
{TellTaleHeart, MagnaofIllusion}
{SnarkySnowman}
{lilith}

Javajoe continued to town it up, so we got this:

{Clumsy, Kuroi, Javajoe}
{TellTaleHeart}
{MagnaofIllusion}
{SnarkySnowman}
{lilith}

This was, unchanged, my reads until SnarkySnowman claimed gladiator. Actually, a little bit after that. Then, we got Kuroi's scummy counterclaim, which was filled with little inconsistencies here and there and felt off. He got to L-1, and was shot during the night in spite of that. That gets us to today. My stance on the gladiators becomes clear: regardless of whether SnarkySnowman is town or scum, there would be at least one scum on Kuroi's wagon. This is that wagon:

KuroiXHF (4) - SnarkySnowman, Clumsy, TellTaleHeart, lilith2013

{SnarkySnowman, Clumsy, lilith}. By my setup spec, I thought SnarkySnowman unlikely to be scum. My scumread on lilith continued. MagnaofIllusion continues to play to his town game on this Earth (I'll give more links later, but basically, he is hardcore scum on Earth-1 and pretty town on this Earth), so when TellTaleHeart claimed vig, you got a list which would look something like:
{TellTaleHeart}
{MagnaofIllusion, Javajoe}
{SnarkySnowman}
{Clumsy}
{lilith}

The only read that falls there is you, and the reason for that is simple: your hard-defense of lilith, and hard-push of players I think are mislynches. You're discrediting players like me and TellTaleHeart, who happen to both be pushing lilith, in favor of me (who I know to be town) and SnarkySnowman, who I believe to be town. This has been consistent across all your recent posting. As early as 922, this trend starts, but it exists in all posts since then. Wanting to know the basis for my reads in 956. 971 looks like it's encouraging a Ranger-Magna fight. (Which, on this Earth, I have no interest in. See you on Earth-1 for that though.) lilith sits in the middle for 989, where I might note you had me as your strongest townread. (So, I can just as easily ask the same of you:

why did

your

read change?

)

Your posting around the gladiators was bad, with things like 1055/1057/1067/1069. 1076 is a very classical scum reaction to a flip overnight and felt forced. You posted a case in 1077/1082/1088 that relies on factors entirely out of the game. (Namely, accusing me of intentionally lurking past deadline, when the time I come on is an

approximation

, not an exact science.) When you vote SnarkySnowman in 1084, it's like you know he will flip town. 1091 is buddying the players you see as likely to support you. You recognize in 1105 the unlikelihood of TellTaleHeart faking her vig, yet when she later supports me, she's suddenly suspicious for it, and your read degenerates on players appropriately. As Javajoe helps you, you townread him, but as he hinders you, you don't. As TellTaleHeart hinders you, your stance on her gets worse and worse and worse. This is particularly evident in 1189.

We also get 1215, where you have it in an absolutely backwards order.

The main reason why I think Ranger's "Where is Earth 1 thread" is scum motived.

One, not Earth1. Two, not what I said. Three, that game

was

a faked townslip and I very much intentionally made that move for the town credit, whereas Four, here I tried to brush it off because

I didn't want to out that I was a VT

. That was

not

information I wanted public. Whereas in the other game, that WAS information I wanted public. Difference between a townslip and a "townslip". Townslips are things I don't want. "townslips" are things I do. I immediately tried to bury the incident. I immediately tried to cover it up. I immediately tried to move on, to brush it off, to make it not a big deal. This, because I was trying to hide the townslip.
In contrast, in the linked game, I argued in favor of the townslip. I said, "the townslip means I'm town". When I was called out on the legitimacy of it, I defended the townslip. I defended it, pointed to it, reasoned why it was a townslip, I

argued

for it being a townslip. My play here has been the polar opposite of that. I've been avoiding it. I've not brought it up. YOU have. YOU have been the one, consistently, bringing up the point, which I would just. rather. be. done. with.

I am for a mass claim, but why not propose your theory anyways since it appears a mass claim is out of the question?

Because my theory becomes absolutely worthless if I post it prior to massclaim, since the whole basis of the theory relies on one simple aspect of role distribution.

So, Clumsy.

You got some 'splainin' to do.

This is adorable. Mostly because I heard it in that voice. But anyway.


Alright, a few things. Your set-up speculation makes you think that a second gladiator is town? I'm less experienced, but I see that going the other way. But in either case, is this your whole reason for finding Snarky to be town? It looks like you're just dismissing him out for this sole reason. What do you think of his recent posts?

Yes, I was wanting a Ranger-Magna interaction at the time. The way you guys were talking, I was getting a strong feeling that one of you was scum. Guess which one I settled on?

"You recognize in 1105 the unlikelihood of TellTaleHeart faking her vig" I was actually suspicious of it (or any vig claim) the minute you brought it up immediately after day started. I had it under a lot of suspicion, as evidenced by 4 posts later in 1109, where I straight out ask you about it. So no, not suddenly suspicious of it.

Also, the whole "He said he was surprised that Kuroi flipped town, talking about the night kill, that's a scum tell!" is incredibly lazy. You know I'm not that terribly new. I think EVERYONE knows about that "tell". So... no.

As for why my reads changed on you Ranger, it started with the no vote deadline thing. Others have said that I don't have a case here at all, but I'm still fairly convinced by what I found. I had written you off as town, but looking at your posts in a different light, I'm starting to see scum. Magna's posts against you also helped. I found what I think to be strong associative ties with you and TTH. The claiming thing. Outright calling for a vig claim after Kuroi was shot. I might be falling prey to conf biasing because I want all my time spent looking into your posting habits over the past 100 pages and 3 months of posts to mean something. But I firmly believe that you are scum here. If not, see you on Earth-One, and I'll probably sheep your Lilith vote.

Another thing I've noticed when I went back to read. Snarky is flip flopping on votes EVERYWHERE. Could be evolution of votes, could be just trying to ride the waves as scum. Something to remember maybe.

I think I will hammer Ranger tonight, that big post was really helpful in the event that she flips town. Where do you guys think we should move to after her if she's scum? What about if she's town? We're going to (probably) have a voice gone after tonight, so I'd like reads to be known.

For me:

Ranger Scum-flips:
TTH>Snarky>Joe (I'm more sure on the first two)

Ranger Town-flips:
Lillith>Snarky>Magna

[Clumsy]

Okay, I don't think there's much more productive talking that's going to be going on. If there's anything else anybody wants to say, I'm driving home now, and I'll probably have her when I get home. I want to reiterate, if Ranger flips scum then I want Tell Tale Heart dead. If she flips town, I want Lilith dead. If either of those is wrong, I think it should be snarky. I want to make sure that this is out there, because I don't think I'm going to survive the night.

[Clumsy]

"Probably hammer her" that is.

[Clumsy]

VOTE: Ranger

Survey says...

[Clumsy]

...

I'm gonna go sit in a corner now.

Spoiler: @Ranger

VOTE: Magna

[Clumsy]

Just uh... just waitin'... >_>

[Clumsy]

Sorry, been pretty unmotivated in mafia in general. Dealing with other games put me in a bad mood by the time I got to this one.

Magna, I really don't think that Ranger is scum here. You're pushing back on her after she said with no unclear terms that you were definitely scum on this earth. I haven't read through your case yet, hopefully will have the motivation to do that tonight, but Ranger has already presented hers and it's pretty compelling to me.

[Clumsy]

Yeah, we need a mass claim. What should ordering be?

[Clumsy]

After me that is. I'm cool with going third.

[Clumsy]

TTH has been very quiet this Earth.

[Clumsy]

Popcorn someone or am I going?

[Clumsy]

I'm Robin, a Vanilla Superhero. I'm popcorning Magna.

[Clumsy]

VOTE: Xkyfu

[Clumsy]

LOL. GG guys, Magna had me fooled on Earth Two, but I really suspected TTH. Thought Snarky was the other scum.

[Clumsy]

Huh. I didn't realize this until now. The scum team on Earth One was Batman and Robin.

._.

[Clumsy]

I wasn't able to get back to the game soon enough on Earth Two. By the time I got time to sit down and do something, the thread was locked. ._.

I'm also fine with PT being released! I for one am happy with the plan we laid out. I told you we could do it Lilith!

Also, I would totally play in that Cakez. Dibs on Spidey though.