Micro 609: DC Dual Universes uPick - Game over!

[lilith2013]

VOTE: Xkfyu

Bad scum! (Badder puns.)

[lilith2013]

VOTE: Xkfyu

Bad scum! (Badder puns.)

One of those statements MIGHT be true.

The first one, right?

[lilith2013]

Ugh.

[lilith2013]

Which was?

[lilith2013]

Kuroi's new avatar is throwing me off.

[lilith2013]

Is there anything wrong with flavor claiming? It's not supposed to be alignment indicative in a uPick.

[lilith2013]

Kuroi's new avatar is throwing me off.

I'd change it to Spiderman, but I'm afraid of being lynched.

What happened to dancing Miltank?

[lilith2013]

Is there anything wrong with flavor claiming? It's not supposed to be alignment indicative in a uPick.

Good point. This is my first uPick game though, so the quick claims came as a surprise.

Mmkay then.

Kuroi's new avatar is throwing me off.

I'd change it to Spiderman, but I'm afraid of being lynched.

What happened to dancing Miltank?

That was for Kain TEPES!!!!!!!!

God bless his udder.


....on another note, I should have been Kain Tepes for my character pick. My POSTS would have been amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

You should join RC's uPick Anything and pick Kain Tepes

[lilith2013]

Kuroi, do you still think lane is scummy?

[lilith2013]

I'm getting a little bit of a scum theater vibe here. I'm alright with my vote where it is.

.. You think they're bussing?

[lilith2013]

Or is it that you think scum!lane is being theatrical? I'm lost.

[lilith2013]

I'm not really seeing the reasons behind scumreading you here (partly because ~ongoing things~ so I can't say more on the subject). Tonally I'm leaning towards town!you right now, I think.

Not sure about Kuroi at this point. I think he overreacted to what you intended as a joke, but not sure if that's AI.

[lilith2013]

Hmm?

[lilith2013]

... I really don't understand what's going on, but ok.

Why are/were you scumreading him?

[lilith2013]

I don't think it was like he was actually intending to sheep..?

[lilith2013]

It seems like you've changed your mind about lane being scummy? 75 in particular.

[lilith2013]

Why?

[lilith2013]

TvT

Also.... Ew??

What makes you so sure it is TvT?

[lilith2013]

I don't like all the flip floppiness you have been doing xk..... You have posted little to no reasoning to any of your votes, but continue to throw them out there seemingly at random

They seem random probably because they are random. Well, except for my latest one where I intentionally sheeped Kuroi to see what he said.

In post 115, Xkfyu wrote:
UNVOTE: Soren

VOTE: lane0168

Sheeping Kuroi.
You seem very unmotivated in this game, why?
What about kuroi do you agree with?

Not a thing. I don't think I've actually agreed with a single thing he's said so far.

And I'm very motivated to play. See?

UNVOTE: lane0168

VOTE: Soren

At least one of the two who have called me out so quickly for my play (Soren and Javajoe) are probably scum. I like Soren for scum the most. His 100, where he voted Clumsy reads as scum trying to be careful with an early scum read on town.

You said your sheeping Kuroi and switching to lane was in order to see what Kuroi said, but you never followed up on this and in fact you didn't even wait for him to say anything before you revealed that it was a reaction test rather than a legitimate scumread on lane.. and then you switched back to Soren.

Reads list:

Town:
Lilith
Snarky
lane
Kuroi

Null:
Clumsy
TTH

Scum:
Javajoe (but not with Soren)
Soren (but not with Javajoe)


Those are in no particular order, and mostly based on gut, right now. So, come on, let's do this.

Can you talk to me about your reads on lane/Kuroi (what did you get out of that reaction test, or what were you hoping to get?), and then Joe and Soren? Why aren't they scum together?

Pffff you put snarky in your town reads. That's laughable

Why is that funny?

Because you can't possibly have a townread on snarky, and going through snarky's iso... All three posts, and all three relevant letters... Makes me laugh thinking about how someone put that as town

Yeah, this.

Fuck it, I'll out the secret scumread.

VOTE: Javajoe

Why?

Haha, touche. But I'm not giving him strikes...

How is this relevant to whether or not you are voting him? Are you scumreading Xk, or no?

[lilith2013]

Which reads do you disagree with the most?

Snarky, Kuroi, and Soren

I also disagree with your basic methodology of "predict what scum 'would' do and then scumhunt based on that." I think the chances of anyone being able to precisely predict what scum would do in any given game is slim to none.

What was the point in keeping your scum read on Joe to yourself?

The benefit of watching him to see what he would do unpressured.

I understand why you disagree with the read on Snarky. Why Kuroi (is it still the scum theater thing?) and why Soren?

[lilith2013]

In post 121, Xkfyu wrote:
Reads list:

Town:
Lilith
Snarky
lane
Kuroi

Null:
Clumsy
TTH

Scum:
Javajoe (but not with Soren)
Soren (but not with Javajoe)


Those are in no particular order, and mostly based on gut, right now. So, come on, let's do this.


VOTE: Xkfyu
Few things I want explained here. Why is Lillith town? Why is -Snowman- town? And lastly, do you also believe that the Lane/Kuroi is TvT? Why?

Lilith is a straight up gut read.

Snarky only made 3 posts when he came into the thread, but he didn't vote anyone, even though he was the only person without a vote in place. That doesn't sound like "scum trying to stay under the radar "to me.

And I think the Lane vs Kuroi thing is TvT because early D1 arguments like that usually are, since scum don't usually want to bring undue attention on themselves. Especially not so early.

I... disagree with the non-voting thing. I don't see how that's alignment indicative, and in fact I'd lean more towards scum based on something like that than town, because scum don't want to draw attention to themselves (that part is true) and the easiest way to draw attention is to join a wagon for BS reasons.

However, I like that Snarky called you out on your readslist.

[lilith2013]

Sorry. Busy with exams, I'll post my readslist later.

Has anyone seen Clumsy's towngame? Does this kind of shallow pressure vote seem like what he plays like?

TTH, do you think my play sucks?

[lilith2013]

Sorry. Busy with exams, I'll post my readslist later.

You gotta stop having exams during our games. It makes me think you're lurking.

I have a break for a few days before they start up again so I'll do posty things when I get home.

Can you explain more on how your read on Snarky changed?

[lilith2013]

TTH, do you think my play sucks?

No :3

.... Then why did you say I was next in line?

[lilith2013]

Finally at a computer. Rereading, reads incoming.

(TTH you may retract your "no you don't suck" yet. May I remind you of Pokemon episode 3-4 where I literally just sat there scumreading everyone.)

[lilith2013]

Very confused.

Lane asked what makes Snarky scum and you gave him the list of things and now you're saying that makes him town even though he was a scumlean in your readslist?

[lilith2013]

So... are you scumreading him or townreading him???

It sounds like you think/know he is town and yet you were trying to push a scumread on him until lane called you out on it.

---------------

Here where's I am.

lane
TTH
Xkfyu/Soren/Snarky
Kuroi/Javajoe/Clumsy

lane's frustration and reaction to kuroi at the beginning of the game scream town to me. I also really like his questions to Xk and Joe.
TTH also seems tonally town here, there's a marked difference between the last game I saw her in where she was scum and kind of closed herself off. I feel like she's working on interacting with people here. (However.. 1) she was in a hydra and there might have been extenuating circumstances for how she posted in our previous game, and 2) I can't decide whether I think her outing that "secret scumread" on Joe is more likely to come from scum or town. But townlean for now.)
Kuroi I was still a bit unsure about regarding the lane vs. kuroi fight but now his recent posts about Snarky being scum vs. town have me moving him slightly down.
Javajoe, for his weird lurking/not sharing reads thing going on, putting out a scumread on Xk but not voting, seems like he's not really interacting or engaging.
I also had Clumsy in my null pile but I'm moving him down too because I think his "pressure vote" on me was dumb and useless and just didn't move the gamestate anywhere.

[lilith2013]

Are you going to attempt to sort him or???

Why is Javajoe null for you?

[lilith2013]

More specifically.. what about him as seemed towny to you?

[lilith2013]

Just like one or two specific things that he's said. He has like 9 posts anyway.

[lilith2013]

I just am like not seeing anything.

[lilith2013]

Ew. What?

[lilith2013]

Meh I see your point. I just.. don't like that it doesn't feel like he's actually trying to scumhunt. Did he really have no better options than to pressure vote me on page 8? It'd be different if he had said "I don't like this post by Lilith, this is a combined pressure + explain yourself vote" but he basically said he had no reason to vote me other than that I'd been inactive. Which is completely NAI, you saw the math game.

I asked whether Clumsy does that a lot as town and Kuroi said yes, though. But I don't really trust Kuroi here.

Care to weigh in on the Kuroi Snarky-scumread-townread issue above?

[lilith2013]

Argh I just don't have any strong enough reads to feel like my vote should be anywhere in particular. I think lane is town and I think TTH is probably town and beyond that it's really just different shades of null.

[lilith2013]

Can't decide. I don't think you're the kind of person who relies on gut reads, but as lane was saying, there's no reason for you to make up reads at this point, especially on people who haven't been posting a lot. I can't decide whether I think this is you buddying up to me once again (ugh) or just that you're able to read me now?? But we were only town together in one game.

[lilith2013]

Well I can't tell if you're town here!!

[lilith2013]

More seriously though, we only have two completed games together and I was town in both of them so that makes me want to think you know how to read me properly.. BUT you said your read was mostly gut, not based on tone or whatever which is at least how I usually read people I've played with before. Do you want to elaborate on what you mean by "gut"?

[lilith2013]

Gah why are you so hard to read.. I just feel all my paranoia bubbling up again

[lilith2013]

Okay I guess I'm good with this.

VOTE: kuroi

[lilith2013]

Xk, why the move from joe to kuroi?

[lilith2013]

Well I can't tell if you're town here!!

Lol ok. Fair enough.

Well, I think you did tell me that you were never gonna let me buddy up to you ever again, and I did believe you.

More seriously though, we only have two completed games together and I was town in both of them so that makes me want to think you know how to read me properly.. BUT you said your read was mostly gut, not based on tone or whatever which is at least how I usually read people I've played with before. Do you want to elaborate on what you mean by "gut"?

I don't know. I like early gut reads just as much as the next person. What I mean by "gut" though, is when I read your posts, they don't feel any different to me than our previous two games, when you were town.

Of course, that approach assumes that they WOULD feel different, if you were scum, which I obviously can't say for sure.

Gah why are you so hard to read.. I just feel all my paranoia bubbling up again

Now this is the kind of reaction I was expecting from you (if you're town), in respect to my town read on you.

In your defense though, it's probably my own fault that you have a hard time reading me. Like I said to Something_Smart in Math's Mafia, I make no real effort to "look townie." I just post what I think I need to post in order to solve the game. Sometimes people town read me for it, and sometimes people scum read me for it.

Why am I so indecisive about you

[lilith2013]

VOTE: kuroi for L-1

What happened to your vote on Xk?

[lilith2013]

Xk, why the move from joe to kuroi?

Trying to mix things up.

Are you scumreading him?

[lilith2013]

Holy crap this game exploded while I was taking a nap.

My role doesn't matter so a claim is useless. (Though since I have nothing to lose, I'm a vanilla town.)

Worry about what I'm saying more than my role.

We're in a UPick. Do you seriously expect us to believe that your character has no powers???

What's going on xk?

I believe him.

Ew.

To clarify my last role, I didn't mean my role doesn't mean just because I'm a VT; I mean my role doesn't matter because if I told you I was a cop, it wouldn't change whether you'd see me as scum or not.

If you would have claimed Cop, I wouldn't have necessarily believed you outright, but I would have still unvoted, and let the night actions sort you.

Claiming VT here though, does lead me to believing you outright.

Why?!?!?!?!?!

To clarify my last role, I didn't mean my role doesn't mean just because I'm a VT; I mean my role doesn't matter because if I told you I was a cop, it wouldn't change whether you'd see me as scum or not.

I got a serious issue with this post... Why would claiming cop even be an option if you're vanilla Townie? This just looks like you thought about claiming cop, but then thought maybe vanilla Townie would be most believable

This. It sounds like Kuroi saw lane's "my character is way underpowered" post in the beginning and decided to claim VT in order to match what he thought other people had for roles.

TTH, I'm kinda starting to like Javajoe a little more. Convince me he's scum, please.

And why on earth are you asking for TTH to case joe?!?!?! Competing wagon much?

Xk/Kuroi team anyone?

[lilith2013]

... Which part do you agree with?

[lilith2013]

Lilith, you believe that

every

character has some sort of special ability?

I am, however, surprised that my character does not have powers. He's probably one of the strongest DC characters in existence.
(Hint: My character isn't really Spiderman.)

Not like an

incredibly awesome PR role

, but I wouldn't expect you to have NOTHING.

[lilith2013]

Wtf lane get your butt back on this wagon

[lilith2013]

/shrug

I don't have a VT pm so I wouldn't know that VTs exist. The other uPick I played there were no VTs.

[lilith2013]

And I said...... I don't have that role PM. Is that clear enough for you???

[lilith2013]

Because lane confirmed that it existed? Until that point I assumed that when he said his character was underpowered he had a small relatively useless power so that he was functionally close to a VT, but still had a power. Because that was what my experience with uPick was like. Unless the two of you are scum together, which I doubt is the case, it's not like he'd be lying about you having a VT pm that matches his.

[lilith2013]

Uh... Yes?

[lilith2013]

Sorry, I was just getting super worked up yesterday and thought I'd better take a break for a few hours. I think I was just getting stuck in confbias mode in regards to kuroi claiming VT, but as long as lane's town I think kuroi is probably cleared here (and yeah, lane is still my strongest townread).

[lilith2013]

Even though I still think kuroi is scummy as shit. Ugh.

[lilith2013]

Well.. What you said makes sense; given the meta for role madness, it'd be close to suicide for scum to claim VT. I can't shake off the feeling that kuroi claimed VT deliberately but again.. I can't tell if I'm just confbiasing myself at this point.

[lilith2013]

Well.. What you said makes sense; given the meta for role madness, it'd be close to suicide for scum to claim VT. I can't shake off the feeling that kuroi claimed VT deliberately but again.. I can't tell if I'm just confbiasing myself at this point.

Well, given the way Kuroi said "Vanilla Superhero," and the fact that Lane confirmed it, I think it's pretty safe to say he's telling the truth.

But

.. There's a small part of me that argues that it's generally the norm for mods to provide scum with VT role PMs or fake claims.

@Kuroi: I meant "deliberately" as in "with the express purpose of throwing people off because they would expect scum to claim a power."

[lilith2013]

I've seen it happen.

[lilith2013]

Not the same circumstances, but similar enough to make me paranoid.

[lilith2013]

I don't know.

[lilith2013]

I don't know.

Well, I didn't read too much of it, but that just looked like a bad fake claim to me. If the mod had given scum fake flavor claims, surely they would have been safe. Otherwise, it defeats the purpose.

I don't think that situation is very similar at all to this one, but maybe I missed something?

Ugh idk am I just being dumb and irrational right now?

[lilith2013]

Argh I just don't have any strong enough reads to feel like my vote should be anywhere in particular. I think lane is town and I think TTH is probably town and beyond that it's really just different shades of null.

I'm right back here with the addition of kuroi being prob-town.

[lilith2013]

I, um... have another exam today so I'll be back tonight.

[lilith2013]

This VC was on point, Cakes.

Early Town read on Telltale for the scum theatre comment.

Can you explain why calling it scum theater makes you townread tth?

Lane’s jump to Snarky at 102 is suspect given how committed he was that Kuroi was fake-scum reading him and was scum for it. At a gut level feels like grasping at a way to extricate himself from what is essentially a 1v1 with Kuroi at that early stage.

Lane's now in your nullpile. After having reread, do you still think that he was "grasping to extricate himself"? Do you see scum!lane confirming town!kuroi's VT claim like he did?

Lane’s 127 is also suspect given that he is voting Snarky at that point in time …

Why is it suspect?

Javajoe’s 130 and 130 are scummy. He’s voting TellTale while having Xf as his top scum read and despite being prodded by Lane doesn’t move it.

Does his vote on TTH being a RVS vote change anything? Or is it scummy more by virtue of Joe having an actual scumread but not voting them than by keeping his vote on TTH?

[lilith2013]

Never try to respond to long posts on mobile. Just lost my whole post.

[lilith2013]

Comments Pages 8 to 15

Agree with 179.

What exactly are you agreeing with?

Clumsy’s 184 hits my scumdar very, very hard. His pushback on Soren to “look at people other than me” looks Townish on its face but the language he top push the discussion towards Kuroi and Lane specifically reads to me as trying to derail focus on his slot. If Kuroi versus Lane is indeed TvT then attempting to direct attention to their early conflict would be a scum-motivated play.

Where do you see him pushing the discussion towards the early conflict between Lane and Kuroi? I see that he mentioned them but not anything specific about that conflict. What makes you think that's what he was trying to do?

And 186 is scummy. In 184 Clumsy had just spent a paragraph on how his top suspects were Lane and Xkfyu. Yet he moves his vote away to Lillith basically for activity reasons. In 184 he literally had just claimed Lillith was Null and yet 10 minutes later Lillith is a viable vote.

Thank you!!! Finally somebody agrees with me.

Like Lilith for the moment given on Page 9 she has an eye on Clumsy.

Why?

And Xkfyu goes back into the deeper part of the scum-pool for 214.

Why?

And don’t buy 233 at all. As of this post I think the reads list was manufactured and more likely to come from scum than Town.

I agree.

Yeah, Lane’s “See you on Earth 2” looks just like the fake Town posting I read from Kuroi early. Especially since it would not contradict his claimed Kuroi-scum read since Kuroi would show up on Earth 2 if Town ever moved over to there with a mislynch.

This kind of contradicts your "null read" on lane. Can you sum up why lane is null for you?
Do you think this was a scumslip like Xk mentioned?

p-edit: sure. Give me a few minutes, mobile is a pain in the ass.

[lilith2013]

Just to preface: Neither of these reads are very strong. My list reads more like "town/townlean/null/people who did something scummy that makes them less than null," not "oh my god i think they're scum."

Clumsy: His pressure vote on me. I didn't catch that he was scumreading other people, which you pointed out, but I thought it was scummy for him to just pick somebody seemingly at random to pressure vote on page 8. There wasn't any mention of my content, so it wasn't like he had read my post and was like, "your post doesn't make sense, this is scummy" and voted me. Which makes me think even more that he just plucked my name out of thin air.

The other thing that's bothering me is that Clumsy seems like he's trying to offer commentary on the game without really getting involved. There's no real attempt to interact with his scumreads and push them. Could it just be that he's town having a hard time getting engaged? Possibly..

Javajoe: again, just this strange lack of interaction. There's no explanations behind his readslist and there's no transparency in his posts showing his progression towards that readslist. Also I think his sudden move from scumreading Xk to townreading him was a little scummy, I feel like just to kind of "go with the flow" and vote for someone who people were more willing to lynch. (I can't remember exactly but I think at that point no one was scumreading Xk, or at least not strongly, other than Joe.)

Replying to 503 in a sec.

[lilith2013]

oh my god I lost my post AGAIN.

MOI I swear I'm typing my reply to you this is just really frustrating.

[lilith2013]

What exactly are you agreeing with?

Um is this busywork? There is only one opinion expressed in that post – that giving Xkfyu town points for “scum don’t draw attention to themselves” is bad. I agree with that. Playstyle isn’t dictated by the role a player plays. I can point you to any number of players who are extremely happy making themselves the center of attention in thread regardless of alignment.

How did you not draw that conclusion yourself?

My issue is that you just gave that bare sentence, "I agree with post #." I like, really like that you put all your thoughts down, but it just seems so unnecessary to write that unless it had an impact on your reads somehow (strengthening a read? Breaking down another?). Since there was no accompanying explanation for how it did so, I thought you didn't, and were just writing that sentence for show.

Where do you see him pushing the discussion towards the early conflict between Lane and Kuroi? I see that he mentioned them but not anything specific about that conflict. What makes you think that's what he was trying to do?

Read the following …

Most of your posts are questions without much telling about you either. You get into it more later with posts, but that was very recent. I think your reasons for scumreading me are silly. Where are your thoughts on the rest of the game?

Anything about Kuroi or Lane?

There's been no followup there after your questions, and you seem fixated on me (and to a lesser extent, Xkfyu).

Why are you shying away from the elephants?

The bolded I see as absolutely trying to prod Soren into commentary on Kuroi and Lane. Do you disagree?

I don't read that and think, "Clumsy is trying to direct the conversation back to lane and kuroi's early arguing." Yeah, he mentions them, but I'm just not picking up what you're saying happened from this post.

Why?

Yes, it is the letter after x. Snark aside,

I think the liking you point is self-explanatory – I am reading Clumsy as scum and at 204 you were expressing some interest in seeing if what you saw from him was scum play.

Okay, yes I get that part.. But why do you think that's alignment indicative? Do you think that scum wouldn't be questioning a baseless vote on themselves?

On Xkfyu – because I don’t believe this indicates Snarky scum-play and Xkfyu is both claiming his read up on Snarky indicated that. Also he’s too worried about whether someone will approve his vote on a scum read he is claiming to have. That’s not Town-perspective play.

okay.

This kind of contradicts your "null read" on lane. Can you sum up why lane is null for you?
Do you think this was a scumslip like Xk mentioned?

Don’t get why you are having trouble reconciling that I have a Null read (neither Town or Scum) on Lane because I see a scummy post. That’s my problem with his slot – enough posts that can come from scum and enough I can see from Town that I’m unsure at this point.

And clearly I absolutely reject it as a scum-slip. I’ve already outlined why it reasonably comes from Town in my catchup.

I haven't finished reading your catchup. I'll get back to you on this.

[lilith2013]

Lol I thought there was a lot more left than there was.

You talked specifically about two moments where TTH and I "threatened to shit on your townread." You're still townreading the two of us anyway?

Also it wasn't very clear to me why you had Lane as null, because you were commenting on scummy things he did more than towny things. I think I'm okay with how you explained it though.

[lilith2013]

Yeah, Lane’s “See you on Earth 2” looks just like the fake Town posting I read from Kuroi early. Especially since it would not contradict his claimed Kuroi-scum read since Kuroi would show up on Earth 2 if Town ever moved over to there with a mislynch.

Actually, I'm confused by this. You implied that lane reads as fake town?

[lilith2013]

Hey MOI, can you respond to my 504 and 512-514 when you get the chance?

I'm going on vacation today but I'll still have internet access. Can't decide if I need to go VLA. I probably should, right?

[lilith2013]

VLA it is. (Don't freak out at me for how long I'm away.)

Mod, I'll be VLA until 6/5.

[lilith2013]

[lilith2013]

Can you explain why Snarky?

[lilith2013]

(I mean, objectively, why Snarky. Not just from this wagon-not-moving thing.)

[lilith2013]

I'LL STILL BE HERE

[lilith2013]

Wtf? It sounds like you're trying to persuade me Clumsy is scum but then redirect me towards Joe. ???

[lilith2013]

But you know Clumsy is in my bottom reads. Why wouldn't you ask me to vote him first?

[lilith2013]

huh. I think you play too subtly for me, MOI. I don't read into things like you do. If you don't say, "yes, I want you to vote for Clumsy," then I don't see it.

[lilith2013]

Thinking about it. After 531 I need to reconsider.

[lilith2013]

Xk....

Can you explain all of your current reads to me? Or whatever your reads were before you switched to snarky?

[lilith2013]

Ummm okay can we rewind then? Explain to me your reads before 531 happened.

[lilith2013]

Sorry guys, I can't do this today and I'm about to get on a plane. I'll be back in like 24 hours at most.

[lilith2013]

......... What's me?

[lilith2013]

Sorry guys, I can't do this today and I'm about to get on a plane. I'll be back in like 24 hours at most.

24 hours? Are you flying to China?

Not to China, I just surmised we would be driving around for a few hours before we got to a place with wifi. Which did end up happening.

[lilith2013]

Hmph.

How do you figure?

[lilith2013]

Clearly.

[lilith2013]

He meant I didn't post re: outing myself, but I was expecting him to post because he said he was going to check with me????

Anyway yeah I'm in the neighborhood.

[lilith2013]

He meant I didn't post re: outing myself, but I was expecting him to post because he said he was going to check with me????

Anyway yeah I'm in the neighborhood.

Why didn't you just say so when you came into the thread, instead of asking me why I thought it was you?

I was waiting for Joe to say something but he did not. Furthering my suspicions of him and his early claim.

[lilith2013]

In post 649, Xkfyu wrote:
So, I was right about Lilith being his neighbor (at least I was right about something).

It would probably be easy to figure out if I looked back and searched. But good job!

Yeah, it was a pretty simple conclusion.

That obvious? *winces*

[lilith2013]

Leaving, sorry.

[lilith2013]

I just got back to hotel but I'm about to pass out.

[lilith2013]

Okay so rereading a bit and... Ugh. I kinda see what Xk was saying in 531, there's nobody pushing back on this Joe wagon--except for Xk pointing this out too. (And like, yeah, I realize I'm about to be the one pushing the wagon in a different direction.) Objectively I think he's scummy and the neighborhood thread also makes me think he's scummy and there's also kind of a site meta towards one neighbor being scum--otherwise they'd just call it masons--so like yeah I still think he's scummy but why isn't his partner trying to bring up a counterwagon? (Unless MoI is trying to do that by directing a Clumsy wagon..?) Is he just so scummy his partner isn't even trying to derail the wagon?

[lilith2013]

But just like... Nothing? It's skeeving me out a little.

[lilith2013]

VOTE: magna

I don't get the D&D joke

[lilith2013]

Oh.

[lilith2013]

Mehhhhhh

[lilith2013]

VOTE: lilith

Rvs or srs vote?

[lilith2013]

I'm not sure how valid this is but I honestly would have expected Magna to die if he were town.

[lilith2013]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA starting today at 5pm EDT til Tuesday morning for weekend family obligations.

VOTE: Lane

He’s posted elsewhere in the last two days and has ignored this thread. Maybe a vote will spur him to answer the open question I have.

Wait, I'm confused. Someone was killed n1 and it affected this earth? I thought the scum from earth 1 were killing during n1. If so then that doesn't seem balanced...

I’d guess that Earth2 is balanced for a Night-start (aka an effective Night 0) but I can’t be sure of that. Pretty unusual here on MS but they do pop up occasionally. No point in complaining until we know the full set-up.

Also I'm not really a fan of this vote or the implication that his "open question" will achieve a significant furthering of the gamestate.

[lilith2013]

Uhhhhhh I don't really know? Gut?

Like part of it is that this is my first game with Magna and so far he's come across as an incredibly intelligent player. I don't know if it's because we're back to the RVS stage again whereas D1 we saw him replace in and produce a lot of analysis at once but that post is just not doing it for me.

[lilith2013]

Aren't I?

[lilith2013]

It was (mostly) originally (barring the "why wasn't he killed" WIFOMy stuff, it was RVS), but now it's kind of a serious one I guess.

[lilith2013]

Pretty sure this is L-1 on Magna.

[lilith2013]

Do I seem like the type to hard bus?

[lilith2013]

My guess is that they're choosing smart and is willing to put two and two together very well. Xkfyu was pretty good yesterday, which would make MoI a good fit at killing Xkfyu. I'd nearly expect scum of less experienced people to kill me as I'd suspect people coasting by and less active.

Can you explain this again?

[lilith2013]

Also,

Do I seem like the type to hard bus?

Also, you didn't actually unvote.

[lilith2013]

Hmm. Seems like Magna's on VLA so I'll unvote I guess. But yall please remind me to get back on this wagon when he's around to engage.

UNVOTE:

[lilith2013]

VOTE: kuroi

[lilith2013]

Okay I guess that did count as an unvote.

Still, I think I want to spread some tentacles elsewhere (sorry for the weird metaphor I don't know how else to describe it I'm so tired) before returning to the Magna wagon.

[lilith2013]

So I'm not sure exactly what to make of discussion on World 1 while on World 2 - feels like trying to be productive in a way that isn't relevant to whom we're actually lynching. So my vote isn't exactly random.

I disagree. Clumsy here is trying to look for an explanation for Xk to be the nightkill. Since we've only been in Earth One until now, the Earth Two scum team has to decide their kill based on Earth One play. It might be relevant to discuss Earth One play in this situation. I don't like that you're so quick to dismiss it.

VOTE: Snarky

[lilith2013]

Being alive after being lynched seems weird to me, since I can technically still contribute to earth 1 by discussing it here...

Okay then, thoughts on your final wagon?

[lilith2013]

I was going to compartmentalize discussions of the separate Earths because this is a little confusing but if we're gonna talk about Earth One, let's get that out of the way so we can lynch scum on Earth Two please.

[lilith2013]

Lane, are you scumreading both Clumsy and Magna for not responding that they're the same alignment in both worlds? Or just Magna?

[lilith2013]

How was kuroi's response different enough for you to not scumread him, as you haven't said anything about him?

[lilith2013]

How was kuroi's response different enough for you to not scumread him, as you haven't said anything about him?

[lilith2013]

There are other cases for scum magna.

What's the other case for scum Magna on this earth? That's what you're implying at least, that it's on this Earth. What's he done to ping you so far? Because all I see in his ISO is jokes so far.

Basically I think you're pulling things out of your ass here.

Have you read what I said about Magna?

[lilith2013]

Oops, missed that

[lilith2013]

My "case" for scum!magna was actually his post about you striking me as so at odds with his D1 posting.

[lilith2013]

I voted you because

Do I seem like the type to hard bus?

[lilith2013]

KUROI IT WASN'T ACTUALLY A SERIOUS VOTE

Like if you consider my original magna vote 10% serious and my "case" on him 50% serious then my vote on you was like 5% serious. I just wanted to get some discussion going because we seem pretty dead already. Okay?

[lilith2013]

Clumsy, how did you go from "lane's pulling things out of his ass" to "too weak a case to be scum"?

[lilith2013]

So I'm not sure exactly what to make of discussion on World 1 while on World 2 - feels like trying to be productive in a way that isn't relevant to whom we're actually lynching. So my vote isn't exactly random.

I disagree. Clumsy here is trying to look for an explanation for Xk to be the nightkill. Since we've only been in Earth One until now, the Earth Two scum team has to decide their kill based on Earth One play. It might be relevant to discuss Earth One play in this situation. I don't like that you're so quick to dismiss it.

VOTE: Snarky

They were killing with as much information as they had prior to game start - trying to read into it gets into a lot of wifom that is not productive. It's basically two different games happening, where you have the same character name and likely a different (or maybe the same) role. They had no info to base the kill on, and there doesn't seem to be much cross-world stuff. That's why I dismiss it.

You've basically agreed with me that the scum team is killing based on Earth One (i.e., limited) info. So I'm still not following why you're dismissing Clumsy's efforts. Do you think it was a towny or scummy thing for him to do?

[lilith2013]

Back from V/LA,

Yeah the timing of the speed wagon on me (just after I happen to go on my publicly posted V/LA) is suspicious as hell. No change there isn’t one scum in the pool of Java, Lilith, Kurio and Lane.

Don't be obtuse. The "timing" of the wagon was because people 1) disagreed with the post in which you declared VLA (that would be me), and/or 2) were suspicious that you were still alive (that would be me, lane, kuroi?). Joe and I were already voting you. That doesn't make a speedwagon. And the wagon disappeared shortly after.

Honestly I was expecting someone to acknowledge it, but have an issue with it and avoid answering. Something like your post shows you have an issue with just answering outright. The hesitation reveals you could very well be town in one game and scum in another.

Clumsy's reaction also gives me the feeling they could be scum on earth 1 along with him being scummy there already.

@clumsy, to me, a town on both worlds says they're town on both worlds no objections. Cause what's the issue?

Um frankly that’s bullshit. No-one answered you. Because everyone but you sees the question for what it is – useless junk. I’ve already explained why there is not a single circumstance where anyone would answer anything but “Town in both Worlds”. You promptly ignore this. Let’s also revisit the chain of events –

You post your pointless question at 706

Kuroi makes a joke at 707. As others have noted somehow you don’t ascribe scum intent to his joke when he’s doing exactly what you said scum would do … avoid the question.

Kuroi, Clumsy, myself, Java and Snarky all post after you initial posted your question. No-one but Kuroi makes any sort of response.

You press the issue at 714. So now you’ve specifically brought the issue up again.

Clumsy makes another joke at 715. This joke you ascribe scum intent to.

TTH also posts and ignores your question.

At 720 I specifically mention I thought you were RVS derping around and explain why – your question was stupid. You say this is a scummy reaction.

For the record the first person to bother to answer your question is Java at 812. Pretty solid indicator that your reaction test was pointless.

No. That they did respond. And I don't like their responses. Magna here. Clumsy probably in earth 1

So Lane – why isn’t Clumsy possible scum on this Earth? And why am I not possible scum on Earth 1? I’m selling faint notes of inside information leaking here …

Okay, forcing discussion time. Lane is town. Thoughts?

So you are essentially saying Lane is too dumb to be scum? I have to say I disagree if simply for the fact that isn’t a real thing. What do you think of the fact Lane is assigning alignments based off his claimed reaction test that don’t make much sense in context?

Also I'm not really a fan of this vote or the implication that his "open question" will achieve a significant furthering of the gamestate.

So you aren’t a fan of the vote? Which, given your later “Yeah my vote was maybe 50% serious or somesuch stuff”, isn’t out of line for early Day RVS moving along action? Why don’t you think Lane elaborating will not be a furthering of the gamestate and why did you feel the need to add significant as a quantifier onto your analysis?

There was no qualifier on your vote --> I don't know how serious it is. I already told you, I don't play subtly. I can't read between the lines. (Probably why I suck at mafia so much, so maybe I should work on that.) I don't think us arguing about whether lane's reaction test worked or not will tell us anything about alignments, because I see it as more of a theory discussion than anything else, and we can all disagree about theory until the end of time regardless of alignments.

I don't know why I added significant, perhaps because I assumed your vote was fairly serious and so assigned some not insignificant amount of gravitas to your post?

Like part of it is that this is my first game with Magna and so far he's come across as an incredibly intelligent player. I don't know if it's because we're back to the RVS stage again whereas D1 we saw him replace in and produce a lot of analysis at once but that post is just not doing it for me.

What level of analysis do you expect on what is essentially page 3 of another Day 1?

I'm not really sure. Just something other than what you posted. Like I said, I think you are incredibly intelligent and the analysis you produced in D1 was very.. penetrating, for lack of a better word. I already said it could be because D1 you replaced in and produced a lot of content right away and the difference between that and RVS that's throwing me off. This post from you is already making me feel better, although there's something bothering me that I can't quite place. I'll probably end up rereading your D1 ISO to compare.

[lilith2013]

Don't be obtuse. The "timing" of the wagon was because people 1) disagreed with the post in which you declared VLA (that would be me), and/or 2) were suspicious that you were still alive (that would be me, lane, kuroi?). Joe and I were already voting you. That doesn't make a speedwagon. And the wagon disappeared shortly after.

I’m not being obtuse at all. Are you saying that a wagon suddenly getting to L-1 in maybe 2 hours for little reasoning shouldn’t be suspect to me given the wagon is on me and I know I’m Town?

It's fine to be suspicious and examine the people on your wagon, I just think you're kind of overstating how big of a deal the wagon was. It was basically an RVS wagon ffs.

So just to be clear – I want you to affirmatively acknowledge that you actually think the “MoI is alive” is an actual reason to scum-read me.

I already said I was like 10% serious when I voted you for being alive. Not enough to actually lynch you for it, enough to put my vote on you during RVS. Why are you asking me this?

Lane and Kuroi probably should do this also.

There was no qualifier on your vote --> I don't know how serious it is. I already told you, I don't play subtly. I can't read between the lines. (Probably why I suck at mafia so much, so maybe I should work on that.) I don't think us arguing about whether lane's reaction test worked or not will tell us anything about alignments, because I see it as more of a theory discussion than anything else, and we can all disagree about theory until the end of time regardless of alignments.

If Lane’s reaction test and everything surrounding it can’t tell us anything about alignments why do you think he made it in the first place?

Because either he thought it would as town or he was trying to find something that other people posted he could throw shade on/look like he was trying to get the game going as scum. I don't know which it is yet.

I'm not really sure. Just something other than what you posted. Like I said, I think you are incredibly intelligent and the analysis you produced in D1 was very.. penetrating, for lack of a better word. I already said it could be because D1 you replaced in and produced a lot of content right away and the difference between that and RVS that's throwing me off. This post from you is already making me feel better, although there's something bothering me that I can't quite place. I'll probably end up rereading your D1 ISO to compare.

This is exactly why I am having trouble with your logic. Because clearly having 20 pages of content to chew on when I replaced in is significantly different levels of available data to make deductions from than RVS version 2.0.

I already said

that I could be being thrown off by the difference between RVS and replacing in. Like I said, my vote on you was half-serious (like half RVS, half not), because I feel like there is a difference in not the amount of content that you're producing, but rather something about

how

you're coming across to me when you say it, that strikes me as different from your D1 posting. Like I also said, I haven't figured out what it is yet.

[lilith2013]

It's fine to be suspicious and examine the people on your wagon, I just think you're kind of overstating how big of a deal the wagon was. It was basically an RVS wagon ffs.

You are under-estimating the amount of information that can be gleaned from RVS wagons, especially ones that get to L-1. RVS wagons that form that strongly that early are going to have scum on them. Regardless of the components votes that make up the wagon. I can dig up any number of games to show you examples if you would like.

Okay. I guess I don't disagree with you about the information thing, it just seems like you're making a big fuss without actually saying anything (but based on the rest of your post, you say you intend to say things about your wagon soon). But why would Joe or I be suspicious for being part of the wagon? We were there first. Unless you think I was seriously trying to push a lynch through on you based on almost no information. Even then, why would you think Joe is part of the suspicious pile for being first on an RVS wagon that he didn't push?

I already said I was like 10% serious when I voted you for being alive. Not enough to actually lynch you for it, enough to put my vote on you during RVS. Why are you asking me this?

I’m asking you because I want to establish with you (also Lane and Kuroi) how willing you are to stand by it as a scum-tell. I have reasons why I’m wanting that established but that will wait until I get a complete set of answers.

Okay. Waiting for you to get back to me on this after they answer, then. How will what the three of us say be alignment indicative?

Because either he thought it would as town or he was trying to find something that other people posted he could throw shade on/look like he was trying to get the game going as scum. I don't know which it is yet.

Which is why I am asking Lane to elaborate on his thoughts myself and was very curious why you chose to attack my post where I started that line of thinking in the first place …

Because it sounded like you were just defending yourself to me. I didn't get that this was your thought process (again, probably because you are way too subtle for me).

[lilith2013]

Whoops, not defending yourself, that part came later. I guess like, overly nitpicky?

[lilith2013]

I'm about as subtle as an oncoming train.

I'll also wait until lane and kuroi respond to say the rest of what I want to say.

[lilith2013]

What about me/lane/TTH has been scummy so far?

[lilith2013]

What about clumsy is obvtown to you?

[lilith2013]

Also I forgot there was another reason I voted you before and I still kind of want to vote you for it but I want to look at it again first.

[lilith2013]

Also I forgot there was another reason I voted you before and I still kind of want to vote you for it but I want to look at it again first.

Must I ISO everyone here?

- MoI should have been voted for not producing his usual insight, but not for existing. Not on essentially Day One of Earth Two.

What insight are you expecting again?

It's really more consistency - the consistency of your insight.

I’d really like you to explain that in some detail given your vote on me said the following –

This as as minor as they are and I'm sure it can change

considering how early it is on essentially, a different day one...

VOTE: MoI

I meant to say minor as they come, as in this is the most minor thing I could find that would warrant a lynch, and the bar isn't high for a vote on Day ones even though it's a different Day One - a day one on Earth Two.

God forbid you reread the maybe 40 posts we've made combined. You read the pages and you have reads so presumably you had reasons for those reads.. And I'm asking what they are..

[lilith2013]

Aww lane

[lilith2013]

Kuroi:

1) as Snarky said, why am I null if you think the back-and-forth with Magna is a TvT? What makes it TvT?
2) what's your snarky read on earth one?

[lilith2013]

So I'm not sure exactly what to make of discussion on World 1 while on World 2 - feels like trying to be productive in a way that isn't relevant to whom we're actually lynching. So my vote isn't exactly random.

I disagree. Clumsy here is trying to look for an explanation for Xk to be the nightkill. Since we've only been in Earth One until now, the Earth Two scum team has to decide their kill based on Earth One play. It might be relevant to discuss Earth One play in this situation. I don't like that you're so quick to dismiss it.

VOTE: Snarky

That's what led me to vote you.

He couldn't have been killed for role-related reasons because we didn't even have our role PMs until the day ended. Even though I was townreading him on Earth 1, he didn't particularly strike me as an effective scumhunter from his Earth 1 posting (no offense). I think a parsimonious explanation for the kill is a familiarity with meta, which I gathered from Post 19 and Post 251 among others.

I never said it was role-related? I said it was related to D1 play because that's all that earth-two scum have to go on.

The reason why I voted Magna in RVS was because Xk died and not Magna, who I would imagine to be a much more important target because he does seem like he's good at scumhunting. Again, not a totally serious vote but enough for RVS.

[lilith2013]

Lilith strikes me a lot differently here than in Pokemon. I can't quite put my finger on why. @_@

Because I'm engaged rather than useless?

[lilith2013]

My "case" for scum!magna was actually his post about you striking me as so at odds with his D1 posting.

He replaced in on Day 1 in the middle of the day so I wouldn't expect the posting to be similar? Or am I missing something in what you're saying?

Already said that 1) I could have been thrown off by that, yes, but 2) it was more about how he said it than what he said, but I can't quite pinpoint what it is that bothered me.

[lilith2013]

Kuroi's reads list isn't good. I have a slight townread on him though, and Snarky's reaction felt reachy and overdone.

VOTE: Snarky

Why townread on kuroi?

[lilith2013]

Ranger replaces lane0168! Please welcome her.

Hi Ranger!

[lilith2013]

Lilith strikes me a lot differently here than in Pokemon. I can't quite put my finger on why. @_@

Because I'm engaged rather than useless?

I'm actually curious--are you feeling this way about just my D1 play, or both D1 and D2, or just D2?

[lilith2013]

Kuroi's reads list isn't good. I have a slight townread on him though, and Snarky's reaction felt reachy and overdone.

VOTE: Snarky

Why townread on kuroi?

Lilith strikes me a lot differently here than in Pokemon. I can't quite put my finger on why. @_@

Because I'm engaged rather than useless?

I'm actually curious--are you feeling this way about just my D1 play, or both D1 and D2, or just D2?

[lilith2013]

I think "flustered and high strung" describes my typical play and you actually saw what was an aberration, so..

[lilith2013]

Rereading it.

[lilith2013]

Are you asking me for thoughts on your list itself, or thoughts on TTH's response to it?

[lilith2013]

Hey TTH, you actually voted me in 736.. So my 789 which you claim to be the reason for voting me could not possibly have been the actual reason.

[lilith2013]

VOTE: TTH

[lilith2013]

Why isn't my read list good?

I think my read list is very good.

Sweetie, it just isn't.

MoI, Clumsy, lane, and I don't belong in the tiers we're in.

Also this is weird because TTH is supposedly townreading Clumsy and Magna to some extent so not sure why she has an issue with you also townreading them.

[lilith2013]

Sorry, we're heading through airport security so I'll respond to your readslist fully when we get to the gate.

[lilith2013]

I will start by discussing Earth Two. I'll possibly discuss Earth One Clumsy and Earth Two Clumsy at another time. For right now, I've promised an extensive read list.
To reiterate, this only covers Earth Two - starting at 699

lilith2013:
745 Second time I've read this post. I liked it the first time I've read it. I still don't dislike it. It sounds fair to ask and while it may be throwing shade, I can see town asking that.
780 Coming by this again, I

really

don't like this. Then she voted me again the day after. If she really thought MoI was scum, she should have stayed by that. Then she voted me. Then she said this was a joke. ...This collection of posts just brought her into scum territory.
- Slight gut town feeling, although it's hard to feel this way when everything she says and does makes me want to vote her.
- 830 Good question coming from Lilith. Good enough to put her back to null.
- Most of Page 34 with MoI appear to be TvT.

Again: what about the back-and-forth between MoI and me makes you think it's TvT?
I did say my vote was only half-serious, and everyone seems to have the impression that I was actually pushing for a lynch, when all I was trying to do was produce some discussion to get the game back going. My unvote was because with him VLA, the pressure on him wouldn't even achieve anything, and I can always come back and vote him when he is around to respond to pressure.

What about 830 is good/towny to you?

Why am I null if the argument was a TvT?

MagnaOfIllusion:
720 Going through again, I actually really liked this post.
832 Enjoyable and strong comeback post.
- Most of Page 34 with Lilith seems to be TvT

I'm actually going to agree with (Snarky?). The strength of your Magna read seems to be based on little, given how few lines you've devoted to his ISO.

Clumsy:
- General rule. Clumsy is speaking with all of us in a very fluid and natural motion. Gut feeling he's town.
- 769 This is the first post I didn't like and I just noticed it now. The vibe I'm getting from, "I'm not sure how I feel about this, but I'll get back to you" doesn't feel genuine.
- He delivers a wall on 771. It looks like a lost, but appears to be some fluff. My gut still says town, but no longer strong town. More like lean town.
- Agree with 793. Lane's logic is flawed.
- 834 If you're going to make such a statement and declare someone town, backing your case with, "gut" is weak support.

The way you talk about him in points 2, 3, and 5 sounds like you're leaning scum on him but then you somehow end up with a townlean?? You call him ungenuine and say his argument is weak and his posts are fluffy but somehow that adds up to town. Which confuses me.

lane0168:
701 This post came off as awkward. I see this as a joke and I'd find it awkward for Lane to come off attacking me without knowing a single thing about my Earth Two play style, but I still found it kind of awkward. I dismissed it as RVS.
706 This is where I took a hard stance on if I liked something or not, and I didn't. I didn't like Lane's suggestion that we decided if we were the same alignment. The only possible way someone would say something was if Javajoe was lynched Earth One as scum and is alive on Earth Two. The other idea would be if Lane thought we were idiots, and I'd be offended on a personal level.
714 Almost makes me want to take what I said before. It would either go back to "Does he really think people will fall for this?" or "Does he not really know why he'd do that."
756 I do not like his reasoning for voting MoI.

Not really much to say about this. Lane hasn't been obvtowning for me like he usually does but then neither has he done anything outrageously scummy. Why don't you like his reasons for his MoI vote?

Javajoe24:
- General gut feeling of town.
812 - I hope this is a prod dodge, because this post just seems kind of useless, shouting, "HEY SCUM! I'M A POWER ROLE!"

I think you've used "gut" for half of your reads.

TellTaleHeart
717 And here we have riddles for posts. I don't town read it like I did before, especially since he didn't post much after this. Actually, why isn't he prodded?
736 Naked vote. No reason. No background. No indication. Nothing.

I'm good with the first two points.

785 Usually, a v/la means you'd offer less content, not stagnate the amount.

Can you explain this last one? It seems a little pointless to say this?

SnarkySnowman:
713 - I was actually pinged by Snowman's laziness at an RVS. It's not everyday that these posts ping me, but they do.
762 - Shortly is actually quite a long time, eh? At least if he calls my penis short, it may not be so bad.
787 - Useless. This reeks of coasting.
820 - Thanks for telling us how this game works. We know. Want to... uhhh... y'know... be useful?

Okay. I guess I agree with you on these points but they don't add up to a scumread for me yet. Just some suspicion, I guess.

Read List:
Strong Town: MoI
Lean Town: JavaJoe, Clumsy
Null: Lilith
Lean Scum: Lane, TTH
Strong Scum: Snowman

Overall: I don't get the "strong" townread on MoI. I can see the townleans on joe and clumsy. I'm leaning scum on TTH myself. Not sure about lane slot but I think your reasoning is fine for a scumlean on D1. I think the strength of a snarky scumread at this point is a little unfounded, and this is the read I think I have the most issue with, but it has to do with your read on Snarky on earth one. After Snarky's response to you I can certainly see what your current reasoning for a Snarky scumread would be (but don't know if I agree with it).

Back to Clumsy - I know I've not mentioned Earth One in this post, but I'm sure I've posted well enough on Earth One's Day One why I scum read you. Do you think I've sufficiently proved why I town read you now?

Following up on interactions with Clumsy, that's good.

[lilith2013]

MoI: honestly I didn't even look at the flip that closely. I vaguely remembered his role being body double but didn't make the connection to bodyguard. You make a good point.

[lilith2013]

Hey TTH, you actually voted me in 736.. So my 789 which you claim to be the reason for voting me could not possibly have been the actual reason.

This actually really bothers me, why would TTH provide a fake reason for voting me when she could have simply said "it was an RVS vote"?

[lilith2013]

Okay, fine with TTH's explanations, and I don't know why she'd lie about a reason that was so easily traceable so UNVOTE: .

I'm too tired for anything else today but I think scum is in Ranger/Kuroi/Joe/Snarky. Tentatively. Very tentatively. (Aka, I'm townreading Magna and Clumsy, and slightly leaning town on TTH maybe.)

[lilith2013]

There's an incongruence in Ranger's read on me:

lilith's content sounds about the same in both worlds, but the key difference here is, she was nullscum in E-1, and here her interactions with MagnaofIllusion strongly paint her as still being scum. Having a scum player common between both worlds would also be one potential reason Xkfyu was the nightkill. The other, that Xkfyu protected someone, is still possible, albeit less likely.

Ranger says Xk being the nightkill points to me being scum in both worlds here. However, in 958, she says that my being scum would explain why I tried to wagon Magna. But you can't have it both ways; I can't be scum because I both nightkilled Xk

and

am trying to lynch my NK Magna who didn't die.

Also please explain how my interaction with Magna makes me scum.

@TTH: you haven't seen the neighborhood, which is basically me pushing Joe for his thought processes throughout the game. I agree I probably should have attempted to sort him more in the main thread, but I wasn't "against" his wagon as you seem to think; I even said his posts in the neighborhood thread came off as scummy. I just pointed out the same thing that Xk did, that there was almost no resistance to that wagon, and at that point, why wouldn't I just hammer or jump on that wagon or whatever? What motivation would I have as scum to defend someone who is clearly going to be lynched anyway, and who is being scummy enough that I probably wouldn't get any flak for participating in the lynch?

[lilith2013]

I mean, Ranger, you've literally just decided that I must be scum and no matter what the NK was supposed to be, I'm scum, based on, what exactly? And you've also decided that Magna must be scum (in E1), no matter what?

I thought you were bad at reading me but you've been getting better recently; this "certainty" paramount to tunneling basically confirms you're scum for me.

VOTE: Ranger

[lilith2013]

^also not sure which world, but I figure Earth two isn't a bad start; also, I was townreading lane in Earth One and not so much here, so that's still tinging my read on the slot.

[lilith2013]

Prod dodging but I'll post thoughts tonight I hope. I'm still convinced Ranger is scum. Congrats Kuroi!

[lilith2013]

Now that I'm going back to work today, my activity level will spike. I promise.

Snarky using gladiator on me because I counterclaimed him is crap. I said that I am a gladiator then asked how people thought if there could be more than one. So the position that Snarky put us in is TvT, except that gladiator isn't strictly a town role:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Gladiator

As far as the asking to replace out, I've asked the same to Soren who put out a comparable level of activity. I've also noted in other games that he doesn't scum hunt.

SnarkySnowman is lying. I'm gladiator.

I don't think there's one this Earth? Do you?

I feel like you're trying to back out of this now. You outright said that he's lying about being a gladiator. So that means that you thought it was a fake claim. Which is something only scum should do (unless very particular circumstances that don't matter here). So why are you calling it a TvT? Shouldn't you think that he's scum? If you thought he was town, would you still 'counter claim'? This doesn't make sense to me at all, and then calling it a TvT seems like you're pushing for a possible no lynch to get out of this today.

I also really like Snowman's 995. But what really does it for me is my point above. This should not be TvT to you. You counterclaimed for a reason. You were a major pusher for Snarky's lynch. You pushed the lynch here telling us he was scum. Now you call it town. I think I made my decision.

VOTE: KuroiXHF

Basically this post is like everything I want to say about the gladiation.

VOTE: Kuroi

L-1.

[lilith2013]

@Snarky: I'm not sure if I can properly articulate my feelings about MoI. The back-and-forth between us after I posted that felt more like his D1 self, where I was seeing really deep analysis and a lot of like reading between the lines which I feel like scum wouldn't bother to do. I'm not even sure if the difference that I saw is real or is valid whatsoever.

[lilith2013]

I just can't understand why Ranger is tunneling on me so hard, because she knows that she usually scumreads me as town and even admitted it! But here there's none of that, instead it doesn't seem like she's even bothered to consider anyone else.

The Kuroi kill makes no sense whatsoever from any perspective.

[lilith2013]

I just can't understand why Ranger is tunneling on me so hard, because she knows that she usually scumreads me as town and even admitted it! But here there's none of that, instead it doesn't seem like she's even bothered to consider anyone else.

See above.

I kind of want to agree with you Clumsy.. I just don't know if you can properly point to timing of activity as a legit scumtell. But I don't see Ranger being town here anyway, soooo wanna vote her with me?

VOTE: Ranger

[lilith2013]

Ranger. I don't think that Snarky's play before the gladiation was that bad? And I actually agree that roles shouldn't be the basis for lynching; for all we know, Cakes deliberately put in two town gladiators to make setup spec like this, what would normally determine scum, impossible/unhelpful.

[lilith2013]

I don't really have anything to add at this point other than that I will not be claiming unless at L-1.

[lilith2013]

Fine. Put me at L-1.

[lilith2013]

Hey guess what Ranger, both of your scumreads are wrong! I wonder why that is? Oh yeah, you're scum.

[lilith2013]

I am totally in agreement with Magna here in that Ranger just keeps repeating that I'm scum without backing it up, and she doesn't even seem to be trying to persuade people to join my wagon like I think she would if she were genuinely scumreading me.

[lilith2013]

Java, why the unvote?

[lilith2013]

What happened to scumreading me and joe?

[lilith2013]

Votecount 3.6

Ranger (3) - lilith2013, MagnaOfIllusion, SnarkySnowman
SnarkySnowman (2) - Javajoe24, TellTaleHeart
lilith2013 (1) - Ranger

Not voting (1) - Clumsy

With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch someone.

MagnaOfIllusion is V/LA until June 20.

(expired on 2016-06-23 21:46:00) remain until day end

Quick question, if I investigated someone and died that night, would I still receive results?

[lilith2013]

Clumsy, you believe they killed Kuroi and TTH fakeclaimed vig as a gambit?

[lilith2013]

Strong strong strong town: Clumsy
Strong town: Magna
Meh: Joe/Snarky
Kinda scummy: TTH
Scumscumscumscum: Ranger

[lilith2013]

I'm interested in hearing in more detail why Snarky started doubting his Ranger read.

[lilith2013]

Also joe if you believe Ranger and TTH could be scum together and TTH fakeclaimed vig, why are you currently voting snarky?

[lilith2013]

I'm still of the opinion that Magna is town here and possibly scum on earth two. The speedwagon as well as his hard push on Ranger (which felt a little bit like he was WKing me) makes that even more likely.

[lilith2013]

I don't think that's accurate lilith.

Why's that?

[lilith2013]

Xk, did you protect anyone the night you were killed?

[lilith2013]

I haven't read Ranger's 1257-1258, will do when I get home from work today.

[lilith2013]

I am super sorry guys. I'm--surprise--studying for another exam! And I just started work, so things are really hectic

Okay, so here's where I am right now.

I read through the threads that Ranger posted. My original townread on Magna was from this aura of intelligence that I felt emanated from his posting, and like this ability to read between the lines that I was a little in awe of, and I was confused and suspicious of him in Earth Two when his tone was different, but because I was townreading him on this earth I thought that the difference in his earth two posting meant he was scum there. After reading through Ranger's links, I think I've changed my mind about those reads. Magna reads a lot more.. I'm not sure how to describe it, I guess formal and stilted, here, and like Ranger was saying, a lot more personal in earth two. Do I believe the doc claim? I don't think so--in my opinion, doc is one of the easiest PRs to claim without needing to provide results. At this point almost everyone is claimed and since no one has claimed an investigative, a claimed protective is basically safe.

I think Ranger is town--she's posting very similarly to how she posted in Earth Two and now that she's flipped town there we can compare the two, and I was townreading lane pretty strongly in earth one before. I think Magna calling her scummy for how she behaved in Earth Two is invalid because we know she was town there. I also don't think she'd have that much incentive as scum here to post a significant amount of content about Earth One in Earth Two when as a replacement she could have gotten by without doing so and by riding on lane's towniness. Magna is using the same Appeal to Repetition argument against Ranger here, but we've seen her flip town after she did the same thing with her case on me, so at worst her doing that is NAI. I think Magna's getting overly defensive to Ranger. Like caught scum.

tldr I think Ranger is right.

VOTE: Magna

[lilith2013]

VOTE: xkfyu

[lilith2013]

If I ran this again, but Marvel flavor instead, role madness and reviewed by a couple good reviewers, would people play it?
:c

Totally would.

Fine with scum pt being released, it's mostly me freaking out over how scummy we look.

I posted something that was meant to be sent to Cakes as a PM regarding investigations in earth two and I would have claimed my results in earth one, but I was hoping scum wouldn't notice and would leave me alive so I could get in one more investigate. Obviously didn't work in my favor.

This is my first independent scumgame on site so I was definitely a little overwhelmed but yeah I would say it was kinda in our favor.

I KNEW moi was scum after day 3 but because I was scum in earth one I didn't say so