Micro 652 - Double Day Unlimited (Over)

[Thor665]

Greetings all.
Even I would have a hard time justifying not readin this game, so give me a couple of minutes...

[Thor665]

On Page 2 - ecane looks towny and Lowell looks towny for admitting that ecane looks towny.
Pretty negative on Flubber for opportunistic snide attack on my slot - he can be my first scum read.

On Page 3 - Ecane looks a bit worse for silly attacks on Qubixes while agreeing with him...?
Really liked Qubixes on this page - strongest town read.
Nmego vibes very scum to me.
Don't like Creature's early reads, then they snap into better reads, though still a touch empty...hurm.

Page 4 - still like Qubixes

Page 5 - dislike Lowell's logic immensely, like Ecane's defense, hope Lowell address it.
Creature remains blargh though I have no idea why multiple people are being confused by his list other than who he chooses to cross out.
Flubber remains scummy to me.
Boring page otherwise.

Page 6 - Zzzzz

Page - 7 Malp sure is taking a long time to read 6 pages... (<- the ellipses means I'm calling that scummy and sad)

Vote: Not_Mafia

L-2

Vote: Flubber

L-3

I think any player voting more than two slots is unhelpful to town. So...Lowell.

@Lowell - back up your attack on Ecane - she asked you a very valid question of how voting everyone is more townish than voting almost everyone so all the wagons are equal. I wouldn't call either blinding town, but to suggest one is scummy while doing the other is pretty nonsensical. Back up that gak.

@Creature - the Nmego townread feels silly to me, can you justify that please? I see nothing much from the slot at all, and what I see I don't like, so why is it such a town read for you?
Also, what's your beef with Qubixes? I would call that the most townish slot in the game pretty much, so...?

@Flubber - how is Nmego obv. town - I heartily disagree, what am I missing?

[Thor665]

Thor, why aren't you voting me?
Also, why are you scumreading Not_Mafia?

Because I'm voting N_M and Flubber.
I'm scumreading N_M because he's doing piss all - which is a bit below town par for him.

[Thor665]

Thor

Look at his registration date, do you think this is how newbscum acts?

Don't see why not, I wouldn't call what he's doing brilliantly town, so, yes, I could see newb scum doing it.

I'm fine with both N_M and Flubber, I don't think Flubber is solving the game, just pretending.

I agree Flubber isn't particularly game solving.
Why did it take you thins long to move a vote to him?
Also, if you don't like N_M why are you not voting there?
And why didn't you answer my question to you?

@Thor: which posts in particular are giving you a scum vibe?

I already noted in my catchup a number of posts.
What player are you asking about?
Which of my stated scum vibes?

Thor:

nmego is asking a lot of questions, and although some of them are unnecessary, in aggregate they seem more eager to solve the game than waste time. Their posting is also kinda carefree, and I haven't seen any contradictions in them, which is a town tell.

He can't really "contradict" empty questions and dithering, so I'll agree with you on that point, though don't think he's remotely said anything near enough to claim lack of contradictions to a town level.
I don't really see him solving the game.
I'm not sure how to gauge "carefree" but he's certainly not going out and stepping on toes - which I would suggest is in line with a newbie scum going with the general attack flow.

What makes Aelin's activity different from scp's?

I dunno, what?

Why do you think we should only have two votes in play?

Because any more votes than that occludes VCA, and I consider VCA useful.
If I thought I could enforce it I'd insist on only single votes, but as stands I think getting people to not derp vote 3+ people and lazy sit on a tertiary wagon that goes through is about all I feel like I can swing.
Do you disagree?

[Thor665]

@Creature - the Nmego townread feels silly to me, can you justify that please? I see nothing much from the slot at all, and what I see I don't like, so why is it such a town read for you?
Also, what's your beef with Qubixes? I would call that the most townish slot in the game pretty much, so...?

[Thor665]

You answered half of it, so...?

[Thor665]

I dunno, what?

This was not a rhetorical question. You are scum reading me for making a "snide attack" on Aelin while doing the same thing to scp for the same reason. Your push is arguably worse because you're actually accusing scp of being scummy instead of trying to get them to post more.

When did I attack Malpa in any way at all?
I'm not impressed by his activity, but I also assuredly never used that as a scumtell on him.

I see what you're saying in reference to the "empty questions". However, I see him not stepping on toes out of being newbie town that doesn't know how to. His questions look like attempts to "fill in the gaps" to a lot of what we take for granted with what needs to be said in a game. This resonates about how I felt as newb town around the time you IC'd me.

So we agree he's not really posting real inquisitive or attacking commentary.
Can you cite an example of this 'filling in the gaps' thing you see and explain it?

[Thor665]

Page - 7 Malp sure is taking a long time to read 6 pages... (<- the ellipses means I'm calling that scummy and sad)

Ah this.

Yeah, I stand by that.
Him not posting back makes it feel more like a lie - it's less the activity and more the lie of him not fulfilling what he claimed.
Also, if you want a specific difference, I would note my defense of Aelin's activity included the comment about her replacing out - pretty sure Malp hasn't, so - maybe that's the difference?

[Thor665]

Heya guys. Not voting yet

So I guess nobody is going to acknowledge this?

Also, going and looking, your attack wasn't about activity on Aelin - so it's not even like it's hypocritical of me to *have* attacked Mal over activity and still have issues with your attack.
So, where's the fire here, jack?
You're saying this is an activity attack?

[Thor665]

@Creature - the Nmego townread feels silly to me, can you justify that please? I see nothing much from the slot at all, and what I see I don't like, so why is it such a town read for you?

Also, what's your beef with Qubixes? I would call that the most townish slot in the game pretty much, so...?

Third time is the charm? Now in bold new flavor?

[Thor665]

I could keep citing these growing pains but this is the basic idea throughout

You have successfully shown that evidence supports the idea he is probably a newbie.
I fail to see the alignment presumption that follows.

[Thor665]

How else do you get someone to post more?

Asking them a question as opposed to inviting other people to attack their actions for you?

I could keep citing these growing pains but this is the basic idea throughout

You have successfully shown that evidence supports the idea he is probably a newbie.
I fail to see the alignment presumption that follows.

I fail to see your presumption the same way.

Since I'm not trying to argue that the slot is newb, it doesn't really matter.
You are trying to argue the slot is town - what part about asking questions about general gameplay speaks to alignment?

[Thor665]

@Thor:

On Page 3 -
Nmego vibes very scum to me.

Did you find particular posts by nmego that gave you scum vibes?

What do you think of my (short) analysis of nmego in 176? I'll add that there does seem to be a change in attitude after getting (kind of?) called out by ecane in 142. All in all, I'm not seeing the obv-town, but I'm not really leaning scum on him either.

For Nmego it is pretty much a body of work opinion. As noted in my earlier discussion about him - I find his posting pretty empty.
I think you finding his sudden eagerness to leap onto the Creature wagon to not be a particularly brilliant example to hold up as townish. Even if I presume he's town, he looks just eager to make any wagon happen in that post. If I presume he's scum he's opportunistic, and playing a protective game on himself. Neither is a particularly good look, and the scum one at least presumes he cares, so feels more likely in a vacuum.

[Thor665]

I'm back, anything good happening?

We're lynching N_M and Flubber.

[Thor665]

Why do you townread N_M? The difference in play isn't brilliant, but this feels like his more lurky scum play than his slightly less lurky town play.

[Thor665]

I'm interested to hear nmego explain his reasoning, but if he's town, I'm assuming he feels strongly about the read, not just to make any wagon happen. How did you get that impression from the post?

Because it came out of nowhere and doesn't particularly jive with all his handwringing about L-2 and L-1.

Why do you think it could be opportunistic? Given the state of the game it's hard to imagine creature getting lynched over that, though to be fair newbie scum might not realize that.

I do agree with his posting being empty, and on the safe side for the most part. I could see newbie town doing that as well though.

Oh, look, you built a fence so I can already point to the two separate fields.
You appear to utterly agree with what I'm seeing insomuch as it exists.
What are you even asking me about?
The strength of the read?
I'm not voting him and don't have him listed as my top two scum. At taht stage,w ith you able to see and understand that his actions can look like scum actions, and actually arguing my stance for me even when asking me about it, and aware that he's not my top scumread - where is this going and what are you doing?

[Thor665]

@Creature, Thor
Have you both played with Flubber before? You mentioned he's pretending to be solving the game. Are there any other games that made you think that, or are there any concrete examples here?
I don't see him as particulary townie, but not scummy either.

I have played with him at least once prior to this game.
I would say the evidence is easily present in this game, and when I made the statement it was entirely based on this game.
As an easy example - read his first 10 or so posts in the game, and note that he isn't really applying much pressure, isn't offering opinions, and the most focused attack he has is basically asking other people to attack someone for something he doesn't even find scummy but agrees with.
I would happily argue that the first real genuine idea expressed clearly that is unquestioningly scumhunting doesn't come in until 27 posts in. Giving him something like a 25/1 ratio of empty posting to posts that look like scumhunting.

Do you think he looks like he's solving anything?
If so - what?
If not - why ask this?

[Thor665]

Since I'm not trying to argue that the slot is newb, it doesn't really matter.
You are trying to argue the slot is town - what part about asking questions about general gameplay speaks to alignment?

You're trying to argue the slot is scum

It does matter

How does evidence (or lack thereof) of the slot being newb matter to me claiming the slot is town?
I also note you dodged the question for a second time.

Half the game is at L2 and only one player looks like opportunistic scum for it?

Ouch - it hurts when you cram words in my mouth like that

NM Ecane and Lowell look a LOT more opportunistic than that

I agree on N_M (who I scumread more than Nmego and also agree on Lowell with some reservations depending on how he fields my question. I disagree on Ecane and would love it if you could describe the slot's opportunism to me exactly.

the most focused attack he has is basically asking other people to attack someone for something he doesn't even find scummy but agrees with.

This is objectively wrong

I disagree, but let's let someone who isn't you make a value call, since you actually are unlikely to be objective on the question regardless of your alignment.

And if you're saying attack with implications of scumread we're on further pages than I thought

So you attacked like that without having a scumread?

[Thor665]

How does evidence (or lack thereof) of the slot being newb matter to me claiming the slot is town?
I also note you dodged the question for a second time.

I told you why I thought nmego was town. I then gave you examples. I brought you to water and you didn't drink. That's fine. Handwaving that by accusing me of dodging your question is dishonest and scummy.

I had a response to this, but Quibixes pretty much summed it up without being sarcastic so maybe I'll just go with that with the note that I specifically asked you how those posts showed town intent moreso than scum intent and other than alingment neutral newb intent;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p8431037

Ecane's 26 looked like pushing towards an easy accidental mislynch under the guise of getting reactions. This is especially so considering there was some decent anti town behavior that sat before 26 for comment

I am not surprised that a newer player (or even an experienced one, frankly most of the game weren't picking on the things you were choosing to pick on- I wouldn't have either) did what she did, especially after other people had. Might buy it as scum tring to blend in theory...but I'd need other evidence to run that path. Also, considering Lowell dogged her for it, and considering how Lowell entered - how can you think it's particularly an issue for her at all? The odds are super small at that point, no?

And yes I "attacked" your slot without scumreading it and I stand by it. When is the last time you found scum by rubbing their back and kissing them on the cheek?

I think the cheek kissing works better than attacking a slot by asking other people to attack something that you agree isn't a bad comment and isn't scum telling - yes.
Everyone knows backrubs don't work though - derp

[Thor665]

Or maybe vote Flubber, who you're calling scummy?

[Thor665]

@Lowell - back up your attack on Ecane - she asked you a very valid question of how voting everyone is more townish than voting almost everyone so all the wagons are equal. I wouldn't call either blinding town, but to suggest one is scummy while doing the other is pretty nonsensical. Back up that gak.

@Lowell.

[Thor665]

@Lowell - back up your attack on Ecane - she asked you a very valid question of how voting everyone is more townish than voting almost everyone so all the wagons are equal. I wouldn't call either blinding town, but to suggest one is scummy while doing the other is pretty nonsensical. Back up that gak.

@Lowell.

@Lowell.

[Thor665]

How was your move of voting everyone bold and awesome?
Functionally it is also a stall - as it doesn't put anyone ahead in vote counts without other people doing stuff, and is a way to hide your own thoughts. It's the opposite of bold, yeah?

[Thor665]

I would expect the blithering to be more defensive instead of inquisitive.

He was being defensive in the questions though. I mean, sure, maybe not "more" defensive, but he was defensive.

I'm not accusing you of being optimistic. I am saying it makes no sense to ignore this while portraying other events in the game as optimistic.

Thor, this should answer your question too.

It does, though I'm not happy with the answer or the logic.

Again you are objectively wrong.

Accusations bring forth more prominent emotional actions than questions. Trying to bring the perception of everyone's eyes on someone does the same.

No, I'm not objectively wrong, especially as you shift the posts.

Your answer sounds fine - except you weren't doing the attack, you were trying to get other people to attack it *while claiming you were fine with the action* so if it was a scumhunting attempt, theoretically it was a scumhunting attempt on everyone else to see how they'd attack something you didn't think was bad.

If that slot was newbie scum not knowing how to vote, I can guarantee they would have looked at that post and freaked out. I remember doing that several times

well

after being a newbie.

Like, I get that you take a very cold approach to mafia, but I don't get not being able to see that other people play differently.

I understand that other people play differently - it's why people often complain that I pepper players with constant questions about motivation.
I fail to see the motivation here - it's why I'm asking so many questions about it.
The answers aren't helping.
I get that you're a special and different snowflake.
But the "newb" acted fine to your comment.
Multiple experienced players called you out on it.
Hint: that makes it a questionable action.

Your defense doesn't sell me.

[Thor665]

@Thor: you seem to have some experience playing with flubber. Do you have additional insight on the way he is posting here?

I only had one game with him prior to this to my recall, and I don't recall particulars. That I recall him at all in a negative light suggests to me that he probably used iffy logic, was argumentative, and flipped town.
So to a certain extent - this might be all playstyle, if I'm recalling correctly.
That said, I'm still pretty happy with the idea of flipping him.

@Mod - V/LA till Sunday the 23rd

[Thor665]

Agreed.

@Mod - V/LA till Sunday the 23rd

[Thor665]

Okay so in the exact post you're quoting I explained why I am more concerned with what Aelin's action would have been than with everyone else's.

Who's shifting posts now?

You - by ignoring that you;
1. Said you were fine with Aelin's play.
2. Asked other people to attack her - as opposed to attacking it yourself.

You've now shifted #1 to the opposite - meaning you apparently did find some issue with her because you wanted a reaction.
and also have ignored #2 - wherein if you had an issue with her play/wanted a reaction you should have been willing to do the attack as opposed to asking for someone to do so.

I find it very hard to believe that this is the only time you've ever seen a post like that. I'm also interested as to what you see as calling it out.

There is literally no way you know how Aelin acted to the comment unless you are that account's alt, or you broke site rules by discussing this ongoing game with them.

I've seen scum post like that, sure.
If you have examples of town being fine with an action, but asking other people to attack it so they could reaction fish the person who did the action they're fine with, I'd be happy to look at them.
Second sentence is just random crazy as far as I can see.

I'd be happy with a Flubber or a Thor lynch (leaning on Thor).

Why do you think I'm scum?

I'm more okay with Lowell than N_M from the fakehammer dance, but will admit I don't put much strength on it either.

@Malp - if you are "here" why aren't you offering any thoughts on anything? You're clearly lurking - what's the strategy there? We're all VTs or scum, and lurking only helps scum and PRs last I checked, so...?

I will note N_M is complaining about the lack of activity and lynches while;
1. Only noting after his complaint that he could/should be doing something about it himself.
2. Not weighing in on his Lowell reaction test or the reactions to it - making it look like a fake reaction test.

[Thor665]

It looks like you're taking advantage of the situation (such putting us to deadline lynch).

How am I doing that?

@thor why do you think Aelin acted fine to my post?

I don't have an opinion on how she reacted to your post.
I'm not trying to analyze that slot.

Quote me where I said I was fine with Aelin's play

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p8411456
So...

I already explained why I asked other people to attack her

You did.
And I explained why it's a scum tactic and a goal post move when you asked me what my issue with it was - what of it?

Also.

STOP.
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Mjolnirtime.

Vote: Malpascp

Because - why not?

[Thor665]

But the "newb" acted fine to your comment.

That was me quoting you back to yourself.

If that slot was newbie scum not knowing how to vote, I can guarantee they would have looked at that post and freaked out.

By using "if" and "would" you showed that they didn't do the things you're talking about.
Ergo - they reacted fine.
Or are you saying Aelin *did* do those things?

I will agree that you said what Aelin was doing was fine, but wished she'd provided more info - I'm not sure why you want people to attack her over that for you (but really don't and are reaction fishing her), but, yeah, that's what you have said.

[Thor665]

^^Disregard that

There is a very obvious reason Aelin didn't do the things I would expected them to do if they were scum. The careful observer will note that the slot REPLACED OUT BEFORE THEY COULD REACT TO ANYTHING I POSTED

This is meaningless to me as a point, but I'm fine agreeing with it.

[Thor665]

Yeah re reading what you said my snark was unwarranted there

Most of your rejoinders are like that thus far - empty noise.

[Thor665]

I am getting the feeling scum are there: {ecane, Flubbernugget, Gamma Emerald, Thor665}

Then help me do this.

Vote: Flubbernugget
Vote: N_M

[Thor665]

Thor what are your thoughts on lowell?

That he got lynched.

[Thor665]

No, he didn't yet? Or am I missing something?

If he's alive then he's being a useless lump - but I don't scum read him as much as some others.

Yeah re reading what you said my snark was unwarranted there

Most of your rejoinders are like that thus far - empty noise.

Yes Thor you are the only person that has ever mattered ever and everything you disagree with is worthless

Give me a break

I will note that this post is actually totally proving of my point (much like the one before it where even you admitted that you were frothing over stuff I didn't say).

Here you are offering a rejoinder to me that is;

1. Emotional noise.
2. Not actually addressing anything I said.
3. Actually inventing things and then claiming I believe them.
4. Then dismissing me, as though the defeat of the straw man justifies your position.

Yeah - I stand by what I actually said, which is your rejoinders are empty noise.

[Thor665]

Thor what are your thoughts on lowell?

This is just further proof that you aren't reading what I'm saying and frothing around trying desperately to attack me.
I literally just answered that.

[Thor665]

No, he didn't yet? Or am I missing something?

If he's alive then he's being a useless lump - but I don't scum read him as much as some others.

Check and mate.

[Thor665]

The attack was the implication that you were making that I ws avoiding the question.
Also it supports my stance that you aren't reading.

[Thor665]

Vote: Flubbernugget

Second day, different outcome?

[Thor665]

The attack was the implication that you were making that I ws avoiding the question.
Also it supports my stance that you aren't reading.

I was more concerned with locking you into a stance with Lowell right before the flip

[Thor665]

VOTE: Thor
VOTE: Flubber

One of these is likely scum

Why?

[Thor665]

TO clarify - I can see why Flubber looks like scum. But I fail to see how I do, or how I'm connected with a theory Flubber scum/town regardless - by the same logic I'm connected to Flubber, I (and he) are connected to you, so I presume there's something else, yeah?

[Thor665]

Hey sheeple

So I'll probably be able to catch up tomorrow night, I've just got a few exams to study for tonight. Thor, can I have a basic summary of what's going on this game?

C'mon, you know I'm the best one for a humorous take

Basically Day .5 was a lurker lynch, that was 'okay' and was a town flip.
Day 1 was a Lowell lynch, that was pretty lame and resulted in a town flip.
There is a multi vote option that most people are using poorly.
The death of Creature is...conflicted in my mind. One possible argument is that his death speaks to Flubber scum due to how the vote push went near end of day. The reverse is that scum did that to try to get Flubber mislynched...though if scum is trying that I'm not sure who said scum really is outside of maybe N_M who is being painfully anti-town even for N_M, and also I think Flubber is probably scum, so, natch.

Most of the rest is kind of an excited newbie soup, in my opinion, though if qubixes is scum I owe a hat eating. I also sorta like ecane, who has an odd amount of hate on her for no clear reason.
I personally think without a strong push that we'll just kind of lazy lynch someone again, and that person won't be scum again.
I'd love you to look at N_M and Flubber - I think one of them very much needs rope today, and I don't think there is a lot of support for either besides, paradoxically, from each of them on the other. If you see an insight into that you'll be my hero.

Also, to scumhunt your entrance - why did you ask me for the review and then change it to ask everyone? I know you're not my buddy trying to awkward distance, so was it a feeling of awkward buddying that you wanted to step back from, or what?

[Thor665]

If people were all big town reading Creature I was utterly unaware of it - it's why I am still voting Flubber.

[Thor665]

Ooo, we're back.

VOTE: qubixes

@aeronaut, how is it handy to get everyone's perspective before you give yours? So you can later adapt it?

Why quibixes?
Seriously now.

So Thor, you're entertaining the idea that I am scum and chose Creature as a nk because of thier push on me? You can't think of another player that's been pushing for my lynch just a

liiiiiitle

bit harder?

Sure I can.
But like Aero *literally* just said - the fact that a supporter of your wagon died and the direct pusher didn't doesn't make it look like a setup of you, but rather a defensive play.

[Thor665]

Why not? Why are you so hard town reading him?
Stated my reasons already, or I think they're pretty easily visible in my ISO. The fact that after three flips he's voting someone random isn't helping me thinking he's town in any way either.

As far as I'm aware this is your case;

qubixes - Some of his posts give me a pretty defensive vibe, and just an overall really bad gut feeling. And the vote was terrible.

It is not a well described case - but if you need me to ask specific questions to get an answer from you, I can do that.

1. What are some of his defensive posts, specifically?
2. Why do you see the defense as scum defense as opposed to town defense?
3. What, specifically, was the advantage for scum in his vote?
4. Can you explain the "gut"?

Why are you pushing back on a simple question about your case? You really haven't described it particularly.

I have no clue how backtracking to what aero said after you made your post is relevant to your thoughts

Crazy idea - he put into words thoughts I had prior to him saying them.
I know that is super unlikely, what with me being the first one to bring up the potential wifom of the kill, clearly that suggests I didn't think about it at all, and also Aero's thought was super unique and impossible for anyone else to replicate, but there you go. [/sarcasm]

Your "newbie soup" comment is extremely bothering on second glance. I don't understand why a renowned IC like you would spend more time tunneling at me than directly reaching your case out to other players.

I've sorted the ones who are posting.
I also *literally* just got done reaching out with my case to Aero, so I don't get your whine here.
It's empty - like all of your posts.

[Thor665]

I've sorted the ones who are posting.
I also *literally* just got done reaching out with my case to Aero, so I don't get your whine here.
It's empty - like all of your posts.

Okay I don't care who you sorted, and aero isn't a newbie or acting like one, and you know damn well that if you want someone to sheep you it takes a lot more than asking once.

If you don't care who I have or haven't sorted then why are you complaining that I'm not sorting people? I wasn't the one who started this conversation.
I'll agree Aero isn't acting like one - I didn't say he was.
I'll agree that it takes more than a single interaction - I wasn't aware that I'd claimed I was going to stop, and I'm also not aware that Aero had been back to address my initial interaction yet, so - as usual - this is an empty attack.
This entire post was.

@THOR

in 181 you give a pretty good case as to why my slot could be newbie-scum. Why don't you vote there then? Why don't you push that? It's not like you've only got one vote. Up to where I've read, you keep on talking about how he's probably newbscum and how it's giving you bad vibes, but like then you keep your vote on NM for a meta case.

The easy and obvious response, without even going back to look at my "pretty good case" is that I disagree with you about my confidence in the meta and/or didn't find the case as convincing as you did.
I would also note that I specifically noted that I didn't think multiple votes in play was a good move - and did so early on, have you not got to that point?

[Thor665]

He can't really "contradict" empty questions and dithering, so I'll agree with you on that point, though don't think he's remotely said anything near enough to claim lack of contradictions to a town level.
I don't really see him solving the game.
I'm not sure how to gauge "carefree" but he's certainly not going out and stepping on toes - which I would suggest is in line with a newbie scum going with the general attack flow.

So this is my "pretty good case" and I'll actually agree it's pretty good.
But the very obvious reason not to get excited about it is - it's a newbie scum case, and newbie scum cases are, with but the smallest amount of squint, a newbie town case.
As you'll find reading on I spend a fair bit of time poking at Nmego trying to figure out the scum or town from the newb.
I didn't see much point in voting there, because I liked both other cases I had substantially better. If my case on you sells you, feel free to self vote, I suppose. I actually don't quite get the issue you're raising - you're pointing out that I avoided pressuring/attacking your slot, apparently. But, unless you're saying we're scumbuddies - I don't get why you even have an issue with that. Clarify?

Also that post includes my comments about votes.

Also want your reads on my N_M and Flubber points.

[Thor665]

Apart from the three or so people attacking her I agree she has no heat?

[Thor665]

I don't think she was in danger of immediate lynch - but I never suggested I did as far as I'm aware?

[Thor665]

I define heat as attacks/scum reads.
I will agree a lot of those names took more heat than her, I would disagree that she deserved more heat or that they didn't deserve the heat they got.

[Thor665]

That sort of goes without saying since you're voting both of us.
Why do you think this?

[Thor665]

Uhh.. I think you just said that Lowell's lynch was "lame" (but deserved?), and you defended me from ecane's accusations.. Anyway, that's not really the point I'm trying to make. I have trouble with why you picked her out with these reasons, while:

I didn't say that about Lowell, I said that about Mal.
I fail to see what me disagreeing with ecane's reads has anything to do with what I'm saying (I don't think you do either)

1. She didn't take a particular large amount of heat.
2. The heat she took doesn't seem overly unfair. I didn't think her entrance was particularly scummy, but I don't think it was a beacon of towniness either.
3. How it makes her town? Both scum and town are going to take "undeserved" heat for things, and we know at least one of the "attackers" flipped town.

1. Immaterial to my point.
2. When you look at what she was attacked over, I disagree.
3. The attacks on her don't make her town, and I never said that - I said she got undeserved heat.

One of the things that really concerns me about her is how she has been basically riding her reads from very early Day 1 to now with very little change. Do you disagree? She also seems to be rather focused on a few people (the opposite of casting a wide net as town). Do you disagree?

A few thoughts here;

I don't disagree - but then I think a lot of other players are also doing this.
You are acting on the presumption that town cast a wide net - which is a presumption I disagree with.

[Thor665]

As for Thor v flubber, I actually don't really understand Thor's insistence that creature had been targeting Flubber all game and therefore flubber is scum. If anything, I'd say that Creature wanted both Thor

and

Flubber lynched by the mid to end of the day, and if I'm being honest he was definitely pushing more for Thor.

I never claimed Creature was only on Flubber - nor is that a cornerstone of my case - indeed, I only discussed it a little bit Day 2 when asked about it.
What game are *you* reading?

So I am a scumspect for you - but so is my top scumspect, and so is my top townread - and you're voting the townread.
Wouldn't it make more sense to lynch me or Flubber to sort that question sooner for you?

[Thor665]

Well, I feel like you're kind of claiming it was only on flubber. if not, can you tell me why it makes sense that Flubber killed creature because he suspected him, but how that doesn't also apply to you?

It is fine that you feel that way - though my words don't back up your feels, so...
I think there is a potential argument that i killed Creature insomuch as I kill slots I don't think I can lynch.
I think a casual search of my games with Creature will not show much concern about his play skill (other thanconcern of it not working) but feel free to research that yourself.

Are you saying it's a valid tell against me?
If not - I don't get the point of this.
If so - you should say so.
In either case - my rebuttal stands as stated.

The answer is that Qubixes looks like a better lynch to me than either of you. Why is it that you feel so strongly that he's town?

The extent of your case is that he is kind of fencesitting and drifts onto votes.
I see that as a clear suggestion of newb rather than scum.
I also strongly disagree with you that he has failed to offer up unique thoughts and valid opinions that were not part of the social stream - how many do I need to showcase for you to make you believe he's town? One, two, more than five?
I'd also like to see you outline the suspect votes you think he's made and actually explain the scum motive beyond "he was late on the wagon" as you and I both know scum also often occupy the fronts of wagons, and it's all a matter of playstyle - so what makes *his* playstyle the latecomer scum?

Also, y'know, lynching Flubber...you listed a *lot* of flak on him and very little on me, and...

I'd also still like to see you address why you keep bringing up the point about me WKing your slot considering, y'know, you're not my scumbuddy...right?

You said you disagreed that the players on the list didn't deserve the heat, which seems to contradict you defending me and saying Mal's lynch is lame.

Actually I said *some* of them deserved heat.
If you're going to debate me can we please fact check your comments so I don't have to start every rebuttal pointing out that you're not following the flow logically?

Anyway, I feel it's a technicality that's not going to help me either way (in determining your alignment).

I'm glad we had the conversation then...?

1. I think it does matter, because you specifically picked her out to say she took an odd amount of heat. I'm trying to figure out why exactly it is so that you say it that way, whereas when I think about her this game it doesn't stick out to me.
2. So you think her actions were more likely to come from town? I personally think her entrance was more or less NAI (though the "Yo yo." sounds a tad forced to me compared to her other posts), but you disagree?
3. You melded her being town and her taking undeserved heat in the same sentence, which made me think they were somehow related. But you're right that they don't technically have to be. So, why do you think that she is town then?

1. Why does that matter? Like, what's the scum motive you're attributing to me here? If I'm *defending* her because she's my scumbuddy - then I think she's being attacked. If I'm *defending* her because I'm scum and want freebie town points for protecting town then I think she's being attacked...so...?

2. Yes, I do think so, and yes I disagree with you. I would think that was pretty clear already - since I'm not calling her scummy.

3. Because she isn't doing anything scummy, and multiple other people are. Why do you think she's scum? Apparently for tone or something, which means you're attacking her off your feels rather than a valid reason, which is undeserved heat. Huzzah - we have made the circle.

Well, I didn't come up with that presumption (stole it from someone more experienced than me), but if you disagree, ok.

Do you agree with it?

And yes, unfortunately a lot of players are doing this, I agree. Creature seemed to be one of the few that actively was adjusting his reads on the fly. Doesn't make the action less scummy though, just better at blending in with the rest.

If it's non-alingment indicative, why are we talking about it?
If scum do it to blend in, that means town does it, and then it's stupid to use it in a case, yeah?

[Thor665]

Of the current two vote wagons, I oppose the one on me and qubixes and support the one on Flubber.
I would compromise for an N_M.

I'd love some other people to weigh in with wagon thoughts - or at least state that they are utterly on standstill waiting for the replacement.

[Thor665]

I think your wording was at least slightly ambiguous, but ok. If I'm not following the flow, I'm either misreading or it doesn't follow my own logic. I don't see what's wrong with figuring out which of the two it is. From my experience here so far, it seems I'm doing a pretty decent amount of fact checking compared to others, so..

My wording was not ambiguous for your statement that I was calling them all of them deserved heat.

1. I'm not attributing a scum motive. If you read my post to Aeronaut, I'm currently not sure on you or flubber. The most important part is that I'm trying to find out is why you have that particular perception of Ecane getting undeserved heat. I'm (currently) not doubting you actually believing that, regardless of either of your alignments. I find that matching perceptions like these can be a useful way to find out whether another player is town, and admittedly a little less useful in figuring out whether the player is scum. I think it is kind of weird though you're going "what? are you scumreading me" for the second time, when I'm not actually doing so. Is my line of question weird or something?

2. Saying someone is not scummy or towny are two different things in my opinion. I'm kind of surprised that you found her entrance towny. Can you explain why?

3. I feel that since she has been relieved from the pressure, she hasn't really showed much sign of trying to figure the game out. Also looking at her "push" on me, it doesn't look like much, since she has to be asked for reasons while there is/was basically no momentum. Note that I was reading her as town during most of Day 1 as well, but I'm reconsidering that position.

1. Yes, I think it is - if you're not trying to attack her and you're not trying to attack me but want to understand why I think she is being unduly attacked because you very slightly disagree about whether she is or is not being attacked I'm left to wonder the point of it all unless your goal is to understand why I think the attacks on her are silly/undeserved - in which case you're going about your questioning in a very strange why asking me to justify that attacks have happened as opposed to asking me why I dislike them.

2. Explain how it's scummy or get multiple people voting her and then I'll bother.

3. Clearly not - she hasn't been here and is being replaced, she hasn't done much of anything by definition of not posting. I hope you're doing more than reconsidering the position considering you're voting her.

I meant that a lot of players are doing it this game specifically, and yes it means that some town players are doing that in this game, which makes this game feel rather stale.

Agreed.
It also makes it a bad scum tell discussion.
So...

[Thor665]

The thing that makes me worried about Flubber flipping town is mostly the way he has been defending himself I think. It just seems so ineffective at actually accomplishing something (i.e. relieving the pressure). It's like every time he just digs the hole deeper without any actual need to do so. I just don't see the motivation for that as scum

There is no motivation for it as any alignment.
Ergo - what you are seeing is ineffectual defense.
Which means the case on him has points he can't explain as town behavior.
Which makes him more likely to be scum.
So...?

[Thor665]

I don't mean reaching out as trying to determine other players' alignments. I don't recall ever seeing the term used that way. I have seen you literally harass players to vote on one of your wagons and in this game you're not doing that to the slightest extent.

As long as you ignore me literally doing it to Aero and qubixes before you even created this complaint - sure.

I agree with you that quibixes has made original thoughts. However, I don't see how his fencesitting implies newb over scum given the timing of it

Newb is non alignment and scum is alignment - you can't functionally argue them as opposing poles on a grade.
The timing exists, sure - but plenty exists *without* timing - which makes me rather doubt the timing based ones were intentionally scum play while the others were unintentional newb play/setup for justification of fencesitting later.
Are you arguing the opposite?

[Thor665]

Here's the entire game;

malpascp (lurker)
Lowell (lurker)
qubixes (Reach out)
Creature (Suspected you)
Aeronaut (Reach out)
Flubbernugget (You)
Not_Mafia (already suspects you)
ecane (lurker)

Who do you think I'm dropping the ball in not reaching out to?
Specifically?
This attack is silly and empty.

[Thor665]

Apparently - frankly I'd be down with the mod mass prodding the lot of them.

[Thor665]

Why don't we talk about you while we wait for other people to show up.

What's up with not having a vote in play? What is your thinking of how that will help you find scum?
What are your thoughts on the biggest wagons (Flubber and myself, since I know your opinion of the wagon on you - but might like to hear your thoughts on how honest you think the people voting you are)?

[Thor665]

I thought I should wait for the replacement before putting someone to L-1.

Why? What does that change?

I don't have particular strong town reads, but as it stands I think you and Aero are the most likely to flip town.

Why an Aero town read?

N_M wouldn't be so bad, but we learn very little if he flips town.

What do we learn if Flubber flips town?

I would reallylike a flubber flip right now

Why are you being such a non-entity lurk sack?

[Thor665]

Here's the entire game;

malpascp (lurker)
Lowell (lurker)
qubixes (Reach out)
Creature (Suspected you)
Aeronaut (Reach out)
Flubbernugget (You)
Not_Mafia (already suspects you)
ecane (lurker)

Who do you think I'm dropping the ball in not reaching out to?
Specifically?
This attack is silly and empty.

I'm not impressed by you dismissing everyone as a lurker and therefore not trying to persuade them the way you would anyone else. Especially since you still did interact with these players with the intent of "sorting" them. If you really want, I can give you the nature of scp's "I'm going to catch up" posting as a reason for exception, but that's still pretty lame

Okay, so your "specific" answer is "the lurkers"

Righr.

I lynched Malp.
Lowell is dead.
And ecane.

And that's it.

So, basically - your complaint is that I haven't reached out to ecane - right?
That's your issue with my "lack" of reaching out, yes?
Because there's no one else but dead peeps and a total lurk sack who is

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8428912

So...yeah, she and I discussed it.

What's your empty scummy issue with me again?

[Thor665]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p8427890

Ooooh, snap - reached out to Lowell also.

You better get in here and redefine 'reach out'

[Thor665]

You are such lazy scum.

[Thor665]

I'll confirm for you that I never reached out to Malp.

[Thor665]

Flubber utterly ducked me pointing out how his complaint was empty.
Then complains that I'm hammering on the empty thing in an empty way.
Yeah...

@Flubber - you have a hammer intent, claim time chuckles.

[Thor665]

N_M wouldn't be so bad, but we learn very little if he flips town.

What do we learn if Flubber flips town?

Ehh... It's bound to contain more information than N_M's lynch, because players have actually voiced an opinion more than "ur useless" on him. Btw, I'm not the person to advocate "lynch for information", far from it. But so far we have been lynching

with

very little information, and I feel if we do that again finding the last scum is going to be

very

hard..

I do agree with this. Lynching NM doesn't seem at all helpful at this point in the game (another reason I'm confused by Thor's play right now). Maybe if it were D1 and we weren't so close to what I assume will be LYLO if we mess this next lynch up. Besides my initial suspicions, Flub makes sense because he's had extensive interaction with most players in the game. I feel like it will be easy to deduce from there.

I have often and repeatedly said in games that a scum flip gives lots of info, and a town flip gives none.
Now, a scum flip of a non=posting player gives less info than a scum flip of a heavily posting player.
But I have never yet seen someone functionally explain why a given town flip is more/less info than another barring PRs.

I find the whole 'info flip' concept pretty silly at face value, frankly.

I pointed out how you are playing less aggressively here than I have seen before. Just because I didn't address you doesn't mean its not there.

You skipped claiming.

I also see that we've dropped the emptiness of "Thor isn't reaching out to enough people" an attack even *I* vaguely bought until I actually looked over my iso - something you clearly didn't do when making that attack on me.
Yet you're not honest enough to admit it - which, incidentally, is why we're going to flip you if you're town (if you're scum it's because we're brilliant).
You've now moved to a 'Thor isn't as aggressive as other places.

...ooookay.
A couple question on that (to showcase that this is now, yet again, an empty attack).

1. How would you describe my "normal" aggressive play?
2. How am I not doing that here (a game wherein I'm focusing a *lot* of posts on you, posting multiple times basically every day about you, reaching out to basically every player to ask them to lynch you, and repeatedly explaining my reasons for lynching you)?
3. Presuming you have that - do you have any connection or meta at all to suggest I'm less aggressive as scum?
4. Have you checked multiple Thor town games and never found me at this level or lower of aggressiveness? If so, which games? If not, how do you know what is normal for town Thor? Explain it?

Pretty sure this is more emptiness.

You should also, as noted, claim.
Or I'll take it as a scum claim.
Of course I already kind of have, fakeclaiming takes time to do right, but maybe you can convince someone else if you pop it out less slowly?

[Thor665]

I already cited masquerade. You were more aggressive there than you were here.

You did say that. How, and does it require you to pretend Pere doesn't exist in that game,y'know, the guy I voted for like 30 real life days straight until I got him lynched?
Y'know, cause Thor when town doesn't tunnel and that game is good evidence of it?
There is also a stretch I was voting you for about three weeks straight by the looks of it.
Yeah, there were a couple of short spurts of voting a day here and a day there on Day 2, but I also assuredly showed that I would happily sit on a vote for about a month on multiple occasions as well. SO I don't get how that shows lack of focusing on a vote, especially with the Pere thing.

You're welcome to point out meta that says otherwise

I offer up Masquerade

but in addition to everything you've pushed at me that came from awkward angles that I refuted, there is plenty reason to see that you're more concerned with making the same noise you're pushing on me as a scum tell.

I don't think you've refruted anything - and I have pointed out multiple conversation threads you've dropped. I guess you dropped them because my rebuttals were so weak you knew I was desperate and flailing and didn't need to mention them again, right?

There is one town role in this game. How does it take time to fake claim as scum when there is only one option? If your accusations of my emptiness have so much weight to them, why do you have to keep making empty noise about me not claiming?

Honestly I forgot - in that case I don't get the point of him waiting to hammer you.

[Thor665]

If someone bussed I mildly lean you at the moment - but I don't really think you're scum, so, meh.
If Aero is scum, I don't really see it - his vote was the pressure cooker moment where the wagon swung into likelihood.
The N_M/Flub antipathy paired with N_M's weak arse dropping of his push on me also doesn't really feel like a bus, though I do think that's within N_M's capability, though less so for Flubber.

That leads me to this.

Vote: Ecane

Theoretically the right move is to no lynch - at least from my perspective.
The rest of you should have me as obv. confirmed town though, so that would make a no lynch a bad move.
If any of you are bad enough at the game to think I'm still scum, let me know and we can assess the situation then.

If not Ecane then I think I'm probably wrong on Qubixes and would tend to advocate his vote tomorrow.

[Thor665]

I could kind of see that argument, and his slide was not screaming town energy - but I think he has a bit of a valid point about you waffling around also, and Flubber ignoring me in order to ding at you feels more like last minute distancing rather than trying to establish his bona fides as town on a slot that knew it was going down.

If I'm right on Ecane it won't matter, and if I'm wrong I won't be around to have to sort it - so either way I'm good

[Thor665]

malpascp

(5) - Not_Mafia,

Creature

, qubixes, ecane,

Thor665
Lowell

(4) -

Flubbernugget

, Not_Mafia, ecane, qubixes
Not_Mafia (4) -

Flubbernugget

, Aero,

Thor665

, qubixes
qubixes (2) - ecane,

Lowell

Flubbernugget

(2) -

Thor665, Creature
Thor665

(2) - Not_Mafia,

Creature
Creature

(1) - Aero
Aero (1) - Not_Mafia

Not Voting (1) -

malpascp

=================================

Lowell

(5) - Not_Mafia, qubixes, ecane, Aero,

Flubbernugget

Flubbernugget

(3) -

Thor665, Creature, Lowell

Creature

(2) - Aero,

Lowell

Aero (2) - Not_Mafia,

Lowell

qubixes (1) - ecane

Thor665

(1) - Not_Mafia
Not_Mafia (1) - Thor665
ecane (1) - Aero

[Thor665]

*sigh*
Yeah, multiple voters are the pits.

I still tend to expect a scum on that Lowell wagon.
Holds solid with my Ecane/Quibixes thoughts.

[Thor665]

A confirmed scum flip effects all reads.
Mostly what it did was effect my thoughts on N_M.
That said, I seem to recall while trolling Flubber's ISO seeing him attacking Ecane, I'll have to look at that - he was assuredly hunting low hanging fruit until I became too big of a threat to ignore.

[Thor665]

Why do you expect scum on the Lowell wagon, when Flubber was already on it?

Switch Lowell with Malp - done.

[Thor665]

Lynch ecane then Aero... profit

I'll ask for a second time - why are you not interacting with the game?
Is it 'fun' for you to play in this way? Like just coming up with a few thoughts and plopping out empty votes.
Please black list me in the future if this is true - thank you.

[Thor665]

Also, this is the first game I reached end game, so yay for me not being lynched/NK'ed!

Overall I had fun though. My tussles with Thor were a little bizarre, but that's ok .

I will agree your tussle with me was bizarre - I still have no idea where you were going with any of that.
It was kind of like Aero accussing me of protecting him. Like, seriously.

Sometimes the spectator sees more of the game

Please black list me, it's a playstyle I loathe with painful abandon and find extremely bothersome.
Not a personal attack, but if I never played with anyone who played like that ever again I would be a super happy man.

[Thor665]

In both cases I wanted to convince you to question your read, because I thought it might be wrong. So I wanted to test how strong your conviction was and perhaps see why

I

was wrong as well, because in neither instances I felt super confident about my own read. I thought by questioning your read and your willingness to defend it or give it up I might also get a better read on you. I can totally see why it is confusing though, and looks like I'm attacking you. So, in the future I should probably try and be more clear about what I'm trying to achieve, though sometimes it could be helpful for the other not to know. I was right though in both cases (nmego=town, ecane=scum), so it might just be more of a point to be more confident in the read.

Both times you were digging into me for reactions on tertiary reads though - and ignoring my prime reads.
By definition my tertiary reads are going to be more soft and more gut - and in neither case was I trying to hard argue the opposite stance.
For Nmego - I was sorting his newbness and how it was affecting reads of him.
For Ecane I was sorting the empty attacks on her.
Still seems weird.

[Thor665]

I'm curious what empty attacks you saw on Ecane because I saw like zero attacks total

Probably what I saw was the Lowell, Qubixes, and Flubber attacks on the slot.
All of which I found bad, and said so at the time.