Micro 662: ArcAngel's Twin Trap Mafia (Ended)

[MisaTange]

I guess I don't understand how I am throwing shade.

Am I throwing shade on myself by realizing I used the wrong word choice in typing out my sentences???

[Pine]

Lame game is lame so far. Most votes on the Cylon

[MisaTange]

Same feeling. Two people haven't checked in yet so let's see if they post tonight. Or tomorrow (realtime).

[Sleepless Assassin]

Vote misa

Throwing shade and then playing the "caught for the wrong reason" game.

>throwing shade
>admitted inthread that I reworded the post weirdly, allowing for misunderstandings which can happen. in a text-based game
>uh

Admitting things doesn't make them town.

But does it make them scum?

It doesn't, but I've played a lot of mafia and her posts are giving me a lot of gut scum vibes.

Let me try to verbalize it.

Interesting exchange

This is a very empty post, but implies suspicion on at least one, if not both, players. Yet the attack is soft enough that it's easy to either back off or choose a side later. This can mean either "both players are scummy", "one of these players is scummy", or "this may be nothing, but I'm watching it". It's just too easy to decide later what you meant and go with the flow or go with what will seem less scummy. A town player is more likely to...commit may be the wrong word, but at least tell us what they are thinking at that moment. For example, why is it interesting? What does it mean that it's interesting? I get that it's early and people will say this is RVS and doesn't mean anything, but misa saw enough to point it out, so I'd like to know why.

I'm actually reminded of the strategy that scum sometimes use where they vote their scumpartner as a means of distancing

Now we get the "why" and it wouldn't be so scummy on it's own, as wrong as it may be. There were no signs of distancing and it's way too early to expect much, if any, distancing anyway. But the real question is whether misa believes there was distancing, and again, the "why" factor is missing. We don't see why misa sees distancing rather than typical early game banter or even genuine suspicion. There's no effort to determine what is going on. Just more weak implied suspicion for no apparent reason.

I mean.It may mean something but it may mean not; I recognize that LUV's/mine's vote can equally be, uhh, that.

And now that she's been called out, she starts to back off, like I mentioned above. She's now in the mindset of defending herself and forgets all about her attack, if it even was one. A town player would probably still wonder if there is something there as far as the players she thought were distancing where instead of suddenly dropping it when it looks bad on her.

okay thenit's a small, slightly unreliable scumtellthis scumtell kind of depends on yours/tb's flip and the reason why i'm not pursuing it any further (hence my RvS vote) is that i dont like scumhunting before flips, on page frickin one

Then there's the excuse that it was rvs. No. You had a game related reason for making the vote. It may have been weak, but it wasn't rvs. But she chooses to discredit herself completely rather than describe more about what she saw that may have come from scum.

I  just realized people from here scumread uncertainty

whelp

First of all, no, it's not the uncertainty. It's the lack of anything backing suspicion that makes it feel more like an attempt to make people seem scummy than genuine suspicion. Second of all, this shows that defensive mentality again. It's "how do I seem to everyone else?", not "who is scum?".

Also notice, that misa's posts have been entirely defensive since she was questioned about her distancing comment. Not one post after that is scumhunting. It's just her trying to explain herself, which yes I understand she needs to do, but it's not a substitute for scumhunting at the same time

[Pine]

First serious vote. SA goes that overboard making a bullshit case in RVS? Nah. This smacks of someone eager to fabricate reasoning, rather than spotting something real.

Vote Sleepless Assassin

[Sleepless Assassin]

*shrug*

Fully expected that to be honest. It comes with my style.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Hey Pine, if that's your first serious vote, does that mean this was a joke or...?

Ugh, equivocating. Either you meant it or you didn't.

I'm out of RVS. This guy is scum.

[Pine]

Way to take things out of context. That was merely the start of a conversation in which I ultimately decided I was misreading Misa. As for 'first' serious vote, I'd forgotten about it. 54 is my second serious vote, first I'm going to stand by.

[MisaTange]

VOTE: Sleepless Assassin

Cause I feel like that was an opportunistic case by scum rather than town

Your argument falls flat when you realize that I wasn't scumleaning Pine/TB at all. Not from the beginning, not at the end of page one. If I had been scumleaning Pine/TB due to their RvS exchange, I would have voted for one of the two in my 15. You've made a PBPA of my current iso, but you haven't noted that my vote was on Tyler the

entire time before this post

... I.E: Someone who hasn't posted at all.

This post's vote is my first serious vote.

I repeat,

I never believed TB/Pine was scummy at all.

Not even a gut-scumlean. I never suspected Pine/TB due to 15. In fact, Pine is a gut-townread atm (due to 25, willingness to help a newbie, but I also recognize that can come from scum as well).

I only needed to point that out in the world (as in: I recognize that Pine/TB might be universally-townread in this game, which I'm okay about atm) that town finds TB/Pine to be scummy enough for a lynch, Pine/TB's RvS exchange might be some means of getting to their partner, especially if their partner shows sign of scummy behavior. It's future-evidence, if you will. It's nothing to pursue because if we applied that scumtell to right about now in three-page, just-out-of-RvS, we're doomed to fail, even with the basic questions of "Is this scum-intentioned? Is this town-intentioned?"

Which is why I sounded noncommittal before that post.

Me pointing out those two RvS votes were in no means a way to properly scumhunt.

How am I able to scumhunt when literally all of the events of this thread are literally:

• RvS > Pine suspecting me due to 15
  
• Pine suspecting me due to 15 > RvS
  
• RvS > SA suspecting me due to 15

If you're suspecting me just because I'm not scumhunting, then it's fair for me to suspect you because you're tunnelling.

The others have been just asking questions which is NAI, and Kop promised to post since yesterday but that is also NAI (especially as I'm still assuming that everyone's busy with Thanksgiving).

[Sleepless Assassin]

Way to take things out of context. That was merely the start of a conversation in which I ultimately decided I was misreading Misa. As for 'first' serious vote, I'd forgotten about it. 54 is my second serious vote, first I'm going to stand by.

Fair enough on the forgetting, but you're reaching with the "out of context" thing. It was a mistake on your end, not something mallicious on mine.

Misa, why was it "interesting" then? and why bring up distancing if you didn't think that's what was going on?

If you're suspecting me just because I'm not scumhunting

If anyone thinks that, they didn't read my post.

As for the tunneling thing, funny buzzword choice. it's early enough that only you, pine, and myself have really done anything noteworthy so you're effectively calling me scum for focusing on you instead of Pine. i'd call that omgus, but that's kind of a buzzword too.

[Pine]

VOTE: Sleepless Assassin

Cause I feel like that was an opportunistic case by scum rather than town

Your argument falls flat when you realize that I wasn't scumleaning Pine/TB at all. Not from the beginning, not at the end of page one. If I had been scumleaning Pine/TB due to their RvS exchange, I would have voted for one of the two in my 15. You've made a PBPA of my current iso, but you haven't noted that my vote was on Tyler the

entire time before this post

... I.E: Someone who hasn't posted at all.

This post's vote is my first serious vote.

I repeat,

I never believed TB/Pine was scummy at all.

Not even a gut-scumlean. I never suspected Pine/TB due to 15. In fact, Pine is a gut-townread atm (due to 25, willingness to help a newbie, but I also recognize that can come from scum as well).

I only needed to point that out in the world (as in: I recognize that Pine/TB might be universally-townread in this game, which I'm okay about atm) that town finds TB/Pine to be scummy enough for a lynch, Pine/TB's RvS exchange might be some means of getting to their partner, especially if their partner shows sign of scummy behavior. It's future-evidence, if you will. It's nothing to pursue because if we applied that scumtell to right about now in three-page, just-out-of-RvS, we're doomed to fail, even with the basic questions of "Is this scum-intentioned? Is this town-intentioned?"

Which is why I sounded noncommittal before that post.

Me pointing out those two RvS votes were in no means a way to properly scumhunt.

How am I able to scumhunt when literally all of the events of this thread are literally:

• RvS > Pine suspecting me due to 15
  
• Pine suspecting me due to 15 > RvS
  
• RvS > SA suspecting me due to 15

If you're suspecting me just because I'm not scumhunting, then it's fair for me to suspect you because you're tunnelling.

The others have been just asking questions which is NAI, and Kop promised to post since yesterday but that is also NAI (especially as I'm still assuming that everyone's busy with Thanksgiving).

^My gut reaction to this is that it may be distancing/tactical bussing. It just plain smells fishy that they're so dead-set against one another. I've had very successful scum games where we come out strong against one another right from the start. Whoever wins coasts on early scumlynch.

PEdit - Reaching? Not at all. You quoted specifically the one thing that supported your position, ignoring the posts following it which explained the context surrounding the voluntary negation of that point. That's like, definitionally out of context.

[ThinkBig]

Hey all, still V/LA until Sunday night.

Catching up from what I've missed, I definitely have an FOS on Sleepless. I'll see you all when I get back.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I asked for clarification on an inconsistency. The context following it doesn't show that you forgot about it. it shows that you moved past it, but it doesn't meanyou didn't make the vote. it should be easy to see why i was confused.

[MisaTange]

That line was to illustrate how much that case was BS. I know that's not the focus.

I also believe mafia isn't necessarily all about scumhunting and finding posts that are scummy, but being open to particular worlds. Yes, that person had legitimate, not-bussy reasons to lynch scum (on situations like Monzer's lynch on 1736 as well as Creeps's lynch in 1747, i.e. someone instigating and scumreading someone the entire day, using my own game experiences), but there's also the distinct possibility that scum hard-bussed their partner.

P-Edit: Also, keep in mind that Sleepless might be purposefully making a bad case to make your gut think that.

Sleepless Assassin: He had a case on me for an hour. He scumleaned me for 15 and no longer scumleaned me for 21, because I

Admitting you're wrong, backing up and re-evaluating, that's a Townish thing

???¿¿

[MisaTange]

Misa, why was it "interesting" then? and why bring up distancing if you didn't think that's what was going on?

You're not reading the second paragraph of 58 btw. The focus is the possibility. It's something to support a case with already scummy behavior. I'm tired of reiterating the same points over and over.

[Pine]

Yeah I'm getting a strong tactical bussing vibe. At the very least, I feel confident that this dispute is not Town vs Town

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Lame game is lame so far. Most votes on the Cylon

Who?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Sleepless:

I don't view Misa's comments as an attempt to throw shade, they seem genuine and a little naive to me. My question towards her was simply to understand why she found it interesting and if there was anything else she was seeing that I wasn't. Her answer was good enough for me and I don't feel the need to debate her definition and/or what she considers distancing because it just gets us nowhere in the end

Also being defensive isn't a scum tell, it's a personality trait.

Misa:

What makes you think SA is tunneling? He voted for you and just presented a case. He has by no means gone on and on and ignored everyone else to get you lynched.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Sleepless:

I don't view Misa's comments as an attempt to throw shade, they seem genuine and a little naive to me. My question towards her was simply to understand why she found it interesting and if there was anything else she was seeing that I wasn't. Her answer was good enough for me and I don't feel the need to debate her definition and/or what she considers distancing because it just gets us nowhere in the end

Also being defensive isn't a scum tell, it's a personality trait.

Misa:

What makes you think SA is tunneling? He voted for you and just presented a case. He has by no means gone on and on and ignored everyone else to try to get you lynched.

EBWOP

[MisaTange]

I don't think SA is tunneling, not sure if that wasn't clear. I recognize that was false equivalence and I said that to point out how bad that particular support was.

[Pine]

Lame game is lame so far. Most votes on the Cylon

Who?

Arnold. A Cylon is a robot imitating a person, from Battlestar Galactica. Because I was calling Arnold Terminator earlier. It was an RVS joke, because I didn't have any leads. We're past it.

Being defensive is indeed a scum tell. Town care less for personal survival, more for investigating and lynching scum. If you drop everything as Town to defend yourself against an attack, you're Towning wrong.

[MisaTange]

@Pine: If you think being defensive is a scumtell, then what about PRs? You can argue that a PR may "drop everything as town to defend yourself against an attack" because they believe that a PR shouldn't die so early; whether via nightkill or lynching.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Misa, I don't dispute anything in post 63, but you haven't changed my mind on anything either. I also just re-read 58 and I get what you're saying but that's just not the vibe I get from your earlier posting. it feels more like something you came up with later.

Lil, I agree completely about defensiveness in general. There are a few different types of defensiveness though and the defensiveness instead of doing anything else feels like scum who doesn't know what to say and uses it to be active. The vote on me after I called her out for not scumhunting fits perfectly with that.

Misa's post 69 is just... like... if that's not scummy I don't know what is.

Pine, defensiveness definitely can be a personality tell, or hell even a town tell. I just don't think it is here. It's case by case like most things in mafia.

Misa, any power role who plays differently because they are a power role is doing town a disservice. That's a good way for scum to catch on to who power roles are. (There are exceptions to this, but probably not in this setup)

[Sleepless Assassin]

Also please try not to bring up power roles in the future. Inexperienced power roles could respond in a way that gives them away

[MisaTange]

If I'm not gonna convince you with 58, then I don't know what will, but I reiterate once more: If I wanted to pursue TB/Pine as an opportunistic ML, I would've switched my vote.

Also I'm voting on you because I completely don't understand your logic at all. To reiterate.

I'll keep that in mind for future posts.