Micro 521: Desperation (Game Over)

[Edosurist]

Pretty sure I've only ever played with you and Edos here.

I don't remember playing with you. Clearly you must be lying.
VOTE: Kmd4390

I'm not for this Flowwagon.

[Edosurist]

Flowwagon ho, then!
VOTE: Flow Alpha

[Edosurist]

I'm liking Kmd and temp right now.

TS is meh. I'll toss Flow here as well.

MM is the closest read I have to scum right now. I don't like 16.
VOTE: MarioManic4

[Edosurist]

Edos, what is wrong with post 16.

I don't see how "joke ate" can "go too far" especially in RVS. MM's post seemed serious, but it doesn't match his reasoning.

Unvote, Vote KT

for an overreaction to a joke vote and opportunistic Alpha vote. I'm pretty convinced he's scum.

I don't think it was an overreaction. Clearly KT is new, and he can't "overreact" if he doesn't yet have a feel for how we play on MS. I'm totally with you on the opportunistic thing, though.

VOTE: KTthecreeper

Also, what does everyone think of hypoclaiming for the desperado so that if they hit town we confirm a townie? For those who don't know, hypoclaiming means we all say "if I'm the desperado, I will target X player". You can always change who later, but if we have a list that we copy and paste each time and adjust as needed, we can keep track of it. I'd hate to have the desperado target town, die, and we don't even know who they confirmed. Of course if they hit scum great, but that's only one side of the role. Thoughts?

I'd prefer that we just do it based off of who you are voting, as temp. If it's somebody they want dead, they should be voting them already. Plus, the desperado can easily remember to state who they would target, but the other townies would have to make a conscious effort to remember to make changes.
tl;dr Just desperado kill the player you're currently voting for.

[Edosurist]

EBWOP:

Edos, what is wrong with post 16.

I don't see how "joke ate" can "go too far" especially in RVS. MM's post seemed serious, but it doesn't match his reasoning.

Unvote, Vote KT

for an overreaction to a joke vote and opportunistic Alpha vote. I'm pretty convinced he's scum.

I don't think it was an overreaction. Clearly KT is new, and he can't "overreact" if he doesn't yet have a feel for how we play on MS. I'm totally with you on the opportunistic thing, though.

VOTE: KTthecreeper

Also, what does everyone think of hypoclaiming for the desperado so that if they hit town we confirm a townie? For those who don't know, hypoclaiming means we all say "if I'm the desperado, I will target X player". You can always change who later, but if we have a list that we copy and paste each time and adjust as needed, we can keep track of it. I'd hate to have the desperado target town, die, and we don't even know who they confirmed. Of course if they hit scum great, but that's only one side of the role. Thoughts?

I'd prefer that we just do it based off of who you are voting, as temp said. If it's somebody they want dead, they should be voting them already. Plus, the desperado can easily remember to state who they would target, but the other townies would have to make a conscious effort to remember to make changes.
tl;dr Just desperado kill the player you're currently voting for.

[Edosurist]

I'm okay with hypo.

Kmd, creeper seems obviously town to me, especially now that he's attacking the one that is defending him instead of buddying the heck out of me which is what I'd expect newbscum to do. I don't see why you could think creep is scum. He is a weak target though, which makes it easy for scum(you) to push him.

Lol. You have a problem with this?

Why would new town intentionally put someone at L-1 like that?

[Edosurist]

OK, sorry. My preview is really screwy and a lot has happened since I actually typed up 76. I think it still stands though.

If you have a gameplan, then why did you put Alpha at L-1?


Regarding hypo list: If you guys really want to do a whole list, fine, but I think it's gonna be so much simpler is you just shoot who you're voting for. If you want to shoot someone else instead, change your vote or state it right before you make the shot.

[Edosurist]

If you want something to do, KT, here's a question for you:

If you have a gameplan, then why did you put Alpha at L-1?

I'm curious what you thought was strong enough reasoning to put him at L-1.

[Edosurist]

@MM
Are you stating that you think both TS and KT are town because of their posts, or simply because they both are the leading wagons.

Considering that Flow's vote on TS was an RVS vote, I wouldn't put much weight on it.

[Edosurist]

Still, the Alpha vote sounds more like new scum with the idea that he has to lynch town and places a vote on someone close to being lynched (and yes this theory would make Alpha town) than a new town player who thinks whoever gets to the thread first must be scum but RVS is useless nonsense and seriously pushing a lynch at a time and everyone must be right so the wagon must be on scum. I get that he's new, but I don't understand the Alpha vote in a new town mindset but it makes perfect sense coming from new scum.

I agree.

Again to Edos, did you read my post about if the person you are voting gets lynched? Is there any downside to hypoclaiming? Are you against doing so?

If they get lynched, then they get lynched and you can't kill them. I don't see how this is a problem. And is it too hard to change your vote or make a statement before you take the shot?
You can also literally just say "I am the desperado and I am shooting ___." If you live, you're clear. If you die, we know that person is clear. Am I missing something?

As for the downside, the issue is that the desperado will remember to update who they'd want to kill, but the other townies would need to make a conscious effort to routinely change who they would kill. Unless we want to check in every 4 pages or so and make everyone state who they would kill as a desperado, chances are the desperado would be the only one consistently updating their kill list and the other townies would simply forget. And if we were to stop the conversation for a check-in, that would stop the natural flow of conversation (which would serve to benefit scum, if it does end up having an impact), and some people might just ignore the check-in all together.
Basically, I don't trust the town enough to hypo correctly. And it'd be too much coordination when you could literally state "I am killing ___" or just killing who you voted for. It's easier to hide the desperado if they base their kill off of something all town naturally does.

[Edosurist]

If you have a gameplan, then why did you put Alpha at L-1?

I'm curious what you thought was strong enough reasoning to put him at L-1.

well alpha started the RVS witch i don't like he refused to give us her main *with is just stupid* trying too hard to defend the RVS also pretty scumy i guess thats about it i found more suspison in teir though

It's not stupid for players to hide their main account when using an alt. If they want to use an alt, that's their choice to make. If they want to share the main, that's great too.

And it's not scummy to defend RVS in the way you're seeing it. It's a natural and organic thing we do on MS to get the game started. If anything, scum actually DON'T want RVS to happen cuz then there's a slow start to the game.

And what's your reasoning for voting TS?

[Edosurist]

What do you believe is his reason for voting Kmd?

[Edosurist]

@KT

Kmd, creeper seems obviously town to me, especially now that he's attacking the one that is defending him instead of buddying the heck out of me which is what I'd expect newbscum to do. I don't see why you could think creep is scum. He is a weak target though, which makes it easy for scum(you) to push him.

This is TS's reason for voting Kmd. It's because he thinks you would be an easy mislynch for scum to press. By this logic, both Kmd and I would be scummy for voting you.

@Kmd
The Desperado is essentially a day-vig, yes? He claims desperado the moment before he shoots, which eliminates the need for any of this hypo stuff.
And I know that a good player would update their kill list, but I don't trust everyone to be a good player and to even remember.

It's a simple solution.
Step 1: Post "I AM THE DESPERADO. I AM SENDING A PM TO MOD SAYING I WILL KILL EDOSURIST."
Step 2: Send PM to Mod saying you wish to kill Edosurist.
Step 3: Either you or I die.
Step 4: Pop a champagne bottle.

[Edosurist]

Kmd how do you feel about creep attacking the one attacking his attacker? (voting me while I'm voting you, the one putting pressure on creep)

I think you should just cut the foreplay and get to the three way.

[Edosurist]

I'm willing to buy your claim, but please explain your TS read.

[Edosurist]

I would sheep a vote temp, although again, ^that was incredibly suspicious.

Scummy play means scum in my book. I suggest we vote TierShift and quickhammer him ASAP so I can save my shot for his scum buddy.

You realize that when the first scum gets killed, by lynch or by desperado bullet, they essentially get a vengeful kill. Now that you've claimed, you HAVE to take a shot today. You'll get NK'ed otherwise.

I'd say kill temp. He's the one with the leading wagon. Definitely have him claim before you shoot, though.

[Edosurist]

Dammit Kmd. Screwed up my carrot.

Anyway, Alpha, you 100% need to take your shot today.

[Edosurist]

"caret" is the correct spelling, actually. ^ It's that thing.

[Edosurist]

LOL Jesus christ. Unless you weren't desperado, that isn't gonna work.

You have to take a shot today. If you need me to explain this in detail, I will.

[Edosurist]

Kmd, this is what I meant about I don't trust town enough.

[Edosurist]

@Kmd
In all serious, what's your take on Alpha here.

I think he's just pulling our leg. I wish he'd

ask for a claim from temp

, though (hint, hint).

@Varien
Does KT's opportunism mean anything to you?

@MM
Why do you have to wait for KT to explain himself to get a read on what just happened?

[Edosurist]

Flow.
If you fakeclaimed desperado, you could've drawn a claim.
And how is temp refusing to claim? He hasn't even had a chance to, and you haven't ASKED him to. Jesus H Christ you're driving me insane.

[Edosurist]

Between Flow, KT, and temp, I don't know what to make of this right now.

Flow, if you're not the desperado, you're getting my vote.
Confirm that you're the desperado, then ask temp or KT to claim.

[Edosurist]

Why should temp claim? Am I missing something other than the brief L-1?

Assuming that Flow was gonna shoot him, he should've asked for a claim before he takes the shot. Now I don't even know what's up anymore.

[Edosurist]

How often do you get to use this ability?

[Edosurist]

Really.
VOTE: Flow Alpha

[Edosurist]

@Mod:

Is this game bastard, and is it possible for there to be a 2-shot daycop (dafuq) in here?

It was my understanding that this was an open setup.

[Edosurist]

So I'm sure scum's already aware of this, but Flow's gambit here has narrowed down the desperado to TS, temp, and Lex. They are the only ones who haven't had an opportunity to counter claim Flow.

My suggestion is that they don't claim. They take a shot at Flow, who will flip scum, giving the other scum an opportunity to make a venge-kill. They get a 1/3 chance to succeed at the vengekill (or 1/2 assuming that one of those three is actually scum).
We can debate whether or not the desperado will claim at that point, but if we decide that the desperado doesn't, we should lynch KT.

If we were to lynch him instead of using the desperado shot, there's a significant chance that it'll go to waste. My calculation ends there for unspoken reasons. Don't ask me about it.

[Edosurist]

@Varien
I guess so, and considering that it's a confirmable role, you may actually be right.

I'm just tried to piece together what all's happened here.

[Edosurist]

You think Flow is town?

If he's town, he's playing against his wincon.

[Edosurist]

I mean, I guess it doesn't really make him scum. It just makes him completely undesirable to play with.

[Edosurist]

Now that I've answered your question, do you think he's town?

[Edosurist]

@TS
Do you think that Flow Alpha is town?

[Edosurist]

@Flow
How does your flip incriminate TS?

[Edosurist]

I'm so done with this. Good night.

[Edosurist]

WoTC will also be allowed if a majority of players agree.

Even at this point in the game?

My suggestion is that they don't claim. They take a shot at Flow, who will flip scum, giving the other scum an opportunity to make a venge-kill. 

And if Alpha is town?

I guess a confirmed Flow would actually be detrimental to the town.

I think I'm in the shoot temp, lynch KT boat at this point.

VOTE: KTthecreeper

[Edosurist]

I'm not really against Temp being shot, but I can't commit to a KT lynch if Temp flips scum.

My thoughts exactly, which is why I want temp shot.

If he flips scum, we got both KT and the desperado confirmed.
If he gets confirmed, we can go for KT then.

@KT
While you're here, can you explain why you put temp at L-1?

[Edosurist]

Phone posting:

@KT
Can you articulate what makes temp scummy, like TS asked?

When we say confirmed, we mean that they practically are. If you were to flip scum, it would be unlikely that you would put both of your partner at L-1, so it would be safe to assume that temp and Alpha are town.

And you shouldn't claim VT because that narrows down the actual PRs for scum to shoot.

@Flow
Do you think KT and temp are scum together?

[Edosurist]

Hi guys, haven't really had time for this today. I might a bit later.

[Edosurist]

That is a bad idea. If you shoot town, the person you confirm would be nightkilled anyway, since he is confirmed town. So it is not good to confirm an useful player.
In other words the person you shoot at will die anyways, ether by you or by the Mafia.

That's not necessarily true because of WIFOM games with the tracker.

@TS
I think our reads are pretty in sync here. I'd prefer you shoot temp, but Lex should be your runner up. I wouldn't shoot Varian.

[Edosurist]

You are scumreading me for what I have not been doing. How im supposed to defend myself?

What you've not been doing is posting much content. Post more content.
You have 7 posts of the game 286 in. One of those is a fluff post. There's more you can be doing.

Why claim desperado now instead of later when we have more info? The chances of you shooting town are pretty high

This sounds like scum talking to me.
Why did you feel the need to say this as one of your seven posts?

[Edosurist]

@temp
I guess you're right. What am I thinking.

I say we lynch KT if you flip town. If you flip scum, I'm willing to call KT clear, although daytalk does lessen that read, as somebody mentioned at some point.

@Var
I don't believe Lex was questioning whether TS actually was. He was questioning whether it was the right choice.

@Lex
What we're trying to say is that you need to post more content.

Im town reading Edo and kmd, leaning scum on KT (but could easily be just newbie town).
I dont get Flow at all, but I dont think he is scum actually, I dont see scum motivation behind his claims (well, it would get to a WIFOM thing).

Also, you have your vote on MM, but you're not confident in that read. And apparently you also think KT is scum. That's all I got from you.

[Edosurist]

Preemptive prodge.

I'm waiting on TS to take a shot WITH ENOUGH TIME for us to have discussion in case of a scramble at the end here.

[Edosurist]

This is a good choice, TS.

<salutes>

[Edosurist]

@Lex
It was a good choice because it was better than shooting Varian in my mind.
Also, I second what the Flows said. Post reads.

VOTE: temphdq
MM would be next on my current list.

[Edosurist]

You still want KT?
Have you reread Flow like you wanted?

[Edosurist]

My playstyle is much theory less reads by feeling.
Anyways, I currently feel that KT, Flow, Lex, Edos, kmd and me are town.

Cool. You feel like everyone who's posting is town.
I see how it is. Lynch all lurkers.

[Edosurist]

Ok. We have 11 hours left.

Who would vote temp?
Who would vote KT?
Who would vote MM?

Personally, I'd vote temp or MM.

[Edosurist]

temp, why the change of heart regarding KT?

VOTE: MarioManic4

[Edosurist]

Also why arebwe assuming temp isn't scum fishing for the actual Tracker?

Are you serious right now?

[Edosurist]

Ugh.

[Edosurist]

KT is not afraid to go wrong and is actively trying to figure this game. Mislynch bait.

I get townibes from Tier, KT, Edos, KMD.

-snip-

KT still needs to explain his actions though.

@MM
Why do you have to wait for KT to explain himself to get a read on what just happened?

I dont.
Just thinking KT explaining everything he's done would help me get a better read on him.

I greatly dislike this progression. The main standout thing that happened between 117 and 141 was that KT put temp at L-1. I don't think I really paid attention to 144 at the time, because that's just stupid.

"I don't need A because I need A instead."

???

So I've basically got it down to MM or Varian. GG.
I'm currently leaning towards MM.

I'm finding it hard to do much else because my internet is really slow right now, so it's a bit painful for each page to load.

[Edosurist]

@MM
Why should I vote Varian over you?

[Edosurist]

We seriously have less than 4 days to work this out. Both MM and Varian should try to make themselves available for this game.

[Edosurist]

... That made no sense.

Are you saying I shouldn't vote you because I have a case to lynch you?
Are you suggesting that I should save to vote my scumread so I can push for my scumread in LYLO?

I honestly don't get your point.

[Edosurist]

Edos, you said Alpha was scum for fakeclaiming. What happened to that?

I realized it wasn't advantageous for scum to do that, so I just backed off.

Do you believe him to be obvtown now with KT's flip or did something change your mind before that?

He's pretty much conftown. That is unless he's (they're?) absolutely brilliant for telling KT to put him/them at L-1 before he/they had him put temp at L-1.
It's possible within the scope of the game, but I seriously doubt it.

Also, when, if at all, have you considered Varian a town read?

Don't believe I ever had him as town. A quick check over my ISO shows I didn't want Varian killed in 283, which I attribute to believing that temp and Lex were scum.

Why did you vote temp and question my scum read on KT after Tier's shot?

I decided to sheep TS.

Are you pretty much at Mario as a top suspect followed by Varian? If so, why?

Yes. You're not scum, and Flow isn't scum. If one of you actually is, I've played this game completely wrong.

Re: me wanting temp shot over KT when Flow claimed
I didn't want our possible conftown to be KT. I hope I don't have to explain why I didn't want that.

[Edosurist]

Hi guys. Been really busy. Promise to check back AT LEAST before that deadline in 11 hours.

[Edosurist]

I guess that's game, then?

Sorry I missed deadline. I just wasn't able to get wifi or phone access.

[Edosurist]

The reason I confused myself and thought there was a watcher, not a tracker, in this game was because I thought there was supposed to be a bit of WIFOM played between the PR and the mafia.

The mafia wouldn't want to kill the clear immediately, cuz as it is right now, the clear only gets to stick around for the rest of the day (if that, thanks to the vengeful mechanic).

That would be my bit of input, but otherwise, gg.