Micro 515: Chosen Mafia [Game Over]

[pirate mollie]

omg neopets

[Ether]

Part 1! I'll do the rest later.

Spoiler: Day/Night 1 Logs

(9:31:18 AM) CaffieneDeity: I actually am kind of weirded out by mollie's vote, to be honest, I just don't want to hit Day 1 off with OMGUS.
(9:31:25 AM) CaffieneDeity: It's just not classy enough.
(9:32:03 AM) ArtherDent: I don't care about mollie's vote. I was tempted to OMGUS the second person voting for us, though
(9:32:13 AM) CaffieneDeity: Oh, huh.
(9:32:35 AM) ArtherDent: That's a little weird, as a random vote in a game this small
(9:32:37 AM) CaffieneDeity: With him I figure, whatever, it's a blind wagon vote, he probably doesn't know us, he probably always does this.
(9:32:49 AM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(9:32:59 AM) ArtherDent: Probabl
(9:33:03 AM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think so. Concentrating your votes on one player is a tried and true way to start the game, if kind of boring.
(9:33:06 AM) CaffieneDeity: But with mollie's?
(9:33:26 AM) CaffieneDeity: I'm like, "Hi, mollie! I hear you're easy to read as town" and she's like vote: us.
(9:33:35 AM) CaffieneDeity: And that's a bit strange.
(9:33:36 AM) ArtherDent: Heh
(9:33:50 AM) ArtherDent: I thought it was more like, she was offended that you didn't remember her, and she thinks you should have
(9:33:55 AM) CaffieneDeity: Oh.
(9:33:59 AM) ArtherDent: You sure you didn't play with her before?
(9:34:06 AM) CaffieneDeity: Pretty sure.
(9:34:12 AM) ArtherDent: Yeah, you haven't played in like 3 years
(9:34:23 AM) ArtherDent: Maybe you know her from one of your picture contests or something?
(9:34:37 AM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, I do know her a little.
(9:34:42 AM) CaffieneDeity: But that doesn't translate into mafia games.
(9:37:49 AM) ArtherDent: Sure
(9:38:20 AM) ArtherDent: But I think that wierded her our, that you wre talking like you didn't know her
(9:38:56 AM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, that could be it.
(10:06:13 AM) CaffieneDeity: This game is a strange land where none of us get each other's jokes.
(10:13:35 AM) CaffieneDeity: Alts are hard.
(10:22:15 AM) CaffieneDeity: Okay. TGS I am kind of tempted to OMGUS.
(10:22:19 AM) CaffieneDeity: Er. YGS.
(10:26:59 AM) ArtherDent: WTF? We're at lynch -1?
(10:27:05 AM) CaffieneDeity: Yes.
(10:27:25 AM) CaffieneDeity: I'd like to get down from that! Then maybe I'd like to talk to the Bella head.
(10:28:20 AM) ArtherDent: And, yeah, we should vote you got schooled
(10:28:23 AM) ArtherDent: Because that was just aweful
(10:28:48 AM) CaffieneDeity: It was, but I think my post kind of pre-empted that. I wouldn't recommend doing it now.
(10:29:11 AM) CaffieneDeity: (Also I hate it when my first vote is obvious.)
(10:29:12 AM) ArtherDent: Did you see my post?
(10:29:15 AM) CaffieneDeity: I think that's kind of biasing me.
(10:29:22 AM) ArtherDent: Eh
(10:29:25 AM) ArtherDent: It's scummy, though
(10:29:29 AM) CaffieneDeity: God dammit.
(10:29:33 AM) CaffieneDeity: Hydraing is hard.
(10:29:34 AM) ArtherDent: I'd vote anyone for doing that
(10:29:36 AM) ArtherDent: Eh
(10:29:49 AM) ArtherDent: I know, we have different playstyles
(10:29:58 AM) CaffieneDeity: It's gonna get better later!
(10:30:00 AM) ArtherDent: Usually, I find that just pointing out the obvious usually works
(10:30:05 AM) CaffieneDeity: We just have to not get hammered until later.
(10:30:11 AM) ArtherDent: "This is anti-town, this is stupid, guys stop being stupid."
(10:30:25 AM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, later on I get a lot more direct.
(10:30:36 AM) ArtherDent: We're about to go out, so I'm not going to be around for a few hours
(10:30:41 AM) ArtherDent: You got this for now?
(10:30:59 AM) CaffieneDeity: Maybe!
(10:31:02 AM) ArtherDent: :)
(10:31:02 AM) ArtherDent: Ok
(10:31:05 AM) CaffieneDeity: If I don't, we'll be dead.
(10:31:10 AM) ArtherDent: Yeah, well
(10:31:13 AM) ArtherDent: I doubt anyone will actually hammer
(10:31:14 AM) CaffieneDeity: But I don't think that's likely?
(10:31:19 AM) ArtherDent: Unless the town is total idiots
(10:31:21 AM) CaffieneDeity: Eh. Some people are stupid, you never know.
(10:31:29 AM) ArtherDent: If the town is THAT stupid then there's nothing we can do anyway
(10:31:47 AM) CaffieneDeity: And I think our hydraing actually is clashing right now, even if we'll meld better later.
(10:31:54 AM) ArtherDent: Eh
(10:31:59 AM) ArtherDent: I think we're ok
(10:32:36 AM) CaffieneDeity: Like I am infuriatingly calm and might hit the wrong note with some people, and you are acting differently from that and the hydra dissonance might also tweak a few people's guts.
(10:33:03 AM) CaffieneDeity: Anyway, I'll do my best to hold the fort.
(10:33:18 AM) CaffieneDeity: Wait.
(10:33:21 AM) CaffieneDeity: He asked you a question.
(10:33:27 AM) CaffieneDeity: Answer before you leave?
(10:33:33 AM) ArtherDent: Yeah, I got it
(10:34:15 AM) ArtherDent: Ok. Sorry, I kind of had to vote him there
(10:34:28 AM) CaffieneDeity: Sigh.
(10:34:34 AM) ArtherDent: Didn't really have any way of responding to him without doing that
(10:34:47 AM) ArtherDent: Anyway, I'm going out. Later
(10:34:56 AM) CaffieneDeity: Bye!
(11:30:11 AM) CaffieneDeity: You're not on, but I'm still typing this as a note to self:
(11:31:08 AM) CaffieneDeity: Xayzeck just posted something useless. If he doesn't make some acknowledgement that we are at -1--unvoting, condemning us further, whatever--then I am going to switch our vote to him.
(11:31:30 AM) CaffieneDeity: People wanted a reaction from putting us at -1? Fine. They have that. Now it's time to use it.
(1:33:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: Bluh. I have no idea who's scum.
(3:54:03 PM) ArtherDent: I am here
(3:57:09 PM) CaffieneDeity: Welcome back!
(3:57:48 PM) CaffieneDeity: We are no longer at -1.

[...]

(4:10:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: But let's try to go over the non-BBT people for a while.
(4:10:46 PM) ArtherDent: I also really want to respond to Xayz's question
(4:10:48 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(4:10:54 PM) CaffieneDeity: What do you think of people's reads on Wanderer-nl?
(4:10:57 PM) ArtherDent: The non-BBT people?
(4:11:09 PM) CaffieneDeity: BBT is the aggressive head of You Got Schooled.
(4:11:18 PM) ArtherDent: Ah
(4:11:19 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(4:12:05 PM) ArtherDent: Wow...wanderer actually said "intent to hammer"?
(4:12:08 PM) ArtherDent: Fuck this town, seriously
(4:12:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: It worked out in the end!
(4:14:50 PM) ArtherDent: I hope the time travel mafia game ends soon
(4:14:51 PM) CaffieneDeity: YGS (both heads of it) seem to think that she wouldn't do something so ridiculous as scum, and the Bellaphant head says there's meta to back that up. And...I think I agree. I do think that declaring that intent wouldn't actually spare her any heat whatsoever if she really did hammer, and if anything would make other people more inclined to unvote quickly.
(4:15:07 PM) ArtherDent: Because once that game is over I can point to that as an example of a game where someone was quite literally lynched on day 1, and it helped cost the town the game
(4:15:26 PM) ArtherDent: But I can't bring that up until it's over
(4:16:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: To be fair, part of that was because farside messed up the votecounts.
(4:16:17 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(4:16:37 PM) ArtherDent: But that doesn't really matter, what matters is demonstrating that I have a damn good reason for being paranoid about this kind of situation
(4:19:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: "Wanderer continues to probably be town." Man...
(4:19:48 PM) CaffieneDeity: I put a "probably" in. I wasn't even thinking about it. I really have changed.
(4:21:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wisdom and pirate mollie got in a dumb fight, and I'm not sure what Wisdom is smoking.
(4:21:21 PM) CaffieneDeity: But, as a general rule, NOBODY is sure sure what Wisdom is smoking.
(4:30:55 PM) ArtherDent: Heh
(4:31:21 PM) CaffieneDeity: Actually I just got him to unvote.
(4:31:27 PM) CaffieneDeity: I have no idea if pirate mollie is town, mind you.
(4:33:49 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, modified post.
(4:33:55 PM) ArtherDent:

Now THAT is anti-town.

No, it is not. I would vote for anyone who put someone else at lynch -1 on page 1 for no reason, because that's clearly anti-town behavior (behavior that lowers the chance of the town winning the game, and increases the chances of the scum team winning the game).

Apparently you do this a lot, so maybe it's null in your case, but I still don't like it. Could you want to explain why you think it's ok to do such a risky, anti-town play for no apparent reason?

why vote ygs tho, he's not the only one on the wagon yknow

Early random wagons are ok, it's a way to generate information, but taking it all the way to L-1 is incredibly risky. It's one thing if you actually are suspicious of the person and don't mind seeing them lynched, but taking someone all the way to lynch -1 for no reason at all is extremely risky.

Seeing some of his later play, especially his response to Wanderer, I'm actually agreeing with Ether's read and leaning towards YGS being town. But really, if you are town, then you need to stop doing that, because that play was just teribad and you should feel bad for doing it.

-Yosarian
(4:34:57 PM) ArtherDent: I do agree with you that YGS is probably town here
(4:35:11 PM) ArtherDent: Well, I wouldn't go that far
(4:35:22 PM) ArtherDent: But his response to Wanders threat feels town-ish
(4:36:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm not really sure if YGS is town, to be honest.
(4:37:09 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(4:37:10 PM) ArtherDent: Uh
(4:38:27 PM) CaffieneDeity: Like I said, my gut did get a bit thrown off by the whole experience, even though I am coming around to how quickly we got out of the RVS. I think I need to see more of what he does around people who aren't me, and how Bella behaves.
(4:39:04 PM) ArtherDent: I like YGS's post # 52
(4:39:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, that's what really cemented my decision to treat Wanderer as town.
(4:39:37 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, I don't know if I *agree* with it
(4:39:44 PM) ArtherDent: But it gives me a good vibe on YGS
(4:42:07 PM) ArtherDent: But ok, let me soften my town read on YSG a little, so we don't contradict ourselves too many times
(4:42:17 PM) ArtherDent:

Now THAT is anti-town.

No, it is not. I would vote for anyone who put someone else at lynch -1 on page 1 for no reason, because that's clearly anti-town behavior (behavior that lowers the chance of the town winning the game, and increases the chances of the scum team winning the game).

Apparently you do this a lot, so maybe it's null in your case, but I still don't like it. Could you want to explain why you think it's ok to do such a risky, anti-town play for no apparent reason?

why vote ygs tho, he's not the only one on the wagon yknow

Early random wagons are ok, it's one way to generate information, but taking it all the way to L-1 is incredibly risky. It's one thing if you actually are suspicious of the person and don't mind seeing them lynched, but taking someone all the way to lynch -1 for no reason at all that early in the game is just bad play, period. There's a significant chance of something really, really stupid happening if you do that.

That being said, I like YGS's post #52, the reasoning he's using in that post feels townish, so I agree with Ether's decision to unvote. But really, if you are town YSG, then you need to stop doing that, because that play was just teribad and you should feel bad for doing it.

-Yosarian
(4:42:53 PM) ArtherDent: That ok?
(4:43:55 PM) CaffieneDeity: I would recommend that you have some reads on later things too. Maybe not to post immediately, but definitely to talk about.
(4:44:01 PM) CaffieneDeity: Especially since I am not really sure who's scum!
(4:44:14 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, let me post this and then I'll try to see if I can comment on other stuff
(4:47:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: "I understand now what Xay meant when he said it would have been better to hang around for him." I just can't get over this. x_x
(4:47:17 PM) ArtherDent: Huh?
(4:47:30 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, so. Mollie looks town

[...]

(5:07:20 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, I don't care, if I see someone put someone at lynch -1 in any game I'm still going to vote them
(5:07:35 PM) ArtherDent: (On page 1, I mean)
(5:07:47 PM) ArtherDent: We stop playing for a few years, Ether, and the whole meta goes to shit
(5:07:47 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, that's something I'd be a lot more inclined to do if I weren't on the receiving end.
(5:07:57 PM) ArtherDent: Normally, I'd agree
(5:08:08 PM) ArtherDent: But, meh, it's still better then a random vote
(5:08:26 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm going to admit...I know I assume I'm completely invincible and all that, but, like, there are RULES I'm following. I know when the envelope is worth pushing.
(5:08:29 PM) ArtherDent: Well, except that it probably increased the odds of us getting lynched. But it's worth it
(5:08:33 PM) ArtherDent: Heh
(5:08:39 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(5:08:52 PM) ArtherDent: I follow rules too
(5:08:58 PM) ArtherDent: I just think they're very different rules, lol
(5:09:03 PM) CaffieneDeity: Probably!
(5:09:46 PM) ArtherDent: Personally, I'd rather confront something like that head-on and get more information. And that usually works well for me
(5:09:48 PM) ArtherDent: At least on day 1
(5:10:14 PM) ArtherDent: Around day 3 or 4, some people start wondering if that guy who makes all those wordy, logical posts and keeps making plays they don't quite get is actually scum
(5:10:22 PM) ArtherDent: But I never get lynched day 1! lOL

[...]

(5:20:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: Hey, what do you think about pirate mollie?
(5:20:22 PM) CaffieneDeity: Without checking what I've said about her.
(5:36:25 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yosarian?
(7:31:45 PM) ArtherDent: I'm back
(7:31:48 PM) ArtherDent: I think she's obvtown
(7:32:04 PM) ArtherDent: She's my strongest read right now
(7:33:39 PM) CaffieneDeity: Honestly I think the only thing she did that was particularly town was townread us at the right moment. Which was a pretty good moment, I will admit.
(7:33:50 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think I had some follow up question I was going to ask you that I can't remember now.
(7:34:35 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(7:34:39 PM) ArtherDent: Not just that she town read us
(7:34:42 PM) ArtherDent: But the way she did it
(7:34:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: Right.
(7:35:12 PM) ArtherDent: She voted us, basically as a joke, then she unvoted us when the wagon got serious, and she town-read you for a good reason.
(7:35:21 PM) CaffieneDeity: What do you think of the "moon logic vs. completely obvious" thing?
(7:40:53 PM) ArtherDent: Um. Where was that, again?
(7:43:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wisdom thought pirate mollie's town read was illogical enough that it had to be made up. At least one other player saw it pretty clearly, and pirate mollie thinks that Wisdom framing it that way is scummy in itself.
(7:45:42 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(7:45:52 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, molla's read made perfect sense to me
(7:46:11 PM) ArtherDent: I'm actually just about to question Wisdom about something else
(7:46:25 PM) CaffieneDeity: Molla's someone else.
(7:46:42 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, ok
(7:48:49 PM) ArtherDent: I just think it's weird that Wisdom is still trying to defend YSK's lynch -1 vote, even after I've called it null
(7:49:03 PM) ArtherDent: Feels like he's trying to buddy up to a townie, maybe
(7:49:07 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think Wisdom just argues with everything.
(7:49:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: He could still be scum, though.
(7:49:59 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, maybe
(7:50:11 PM) ArtherDent: I'll prod him a little on this. It seems like a weird thing for him still to be going on about
(7:54:43 PM) ArtherDent: You know, it's really hard to not take Wisdom seriously with that L avitar staring at me
(7:55:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: Take, or not take?
(7:55:28 PM) ArtherDent: It's hard to not take him seriously
(7:55:30 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh.
(7:55:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: Don't worry! You'll get used to it.
(7:55:39 PM) ArtherDent: Becuase of the avitar, mostly
(7:55:40 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(7:55:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: I haven't watched the anime, I admit.
(7:55:49 PM) ArtherDent: Ah
(7:55:51 PM) ArtherDent: You should
(7:55:55 PM) ArtherDent: It's incredible
(7:56:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: I know who it is, but I also know, come on, this is Wisdom we're talking about.
(7:56:08 PM) ArtherDent: I haven't seen a lot of anime, but trust me, it's the best thing ever
(7:56:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wow, Tiphaine's post is dumb.
(7:57:08 PM) ArtherDent: Wow
(7:57:13 PM) ArtherDent: Yes, yes it is
(7:58:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: I...really don't agree with your decision to keep poking at the BBT thing.
(7:58:21 PM) ArtherDent: I don't care about the BBT thing
(7:58:25 PM) ArtherDent: I care about Wisdom's reaction to it
(7:58:32 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh.
(7:58:38 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think I care about that, either, to be honest.
(7:58:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also that still counts as the BBT thing.
(7:59:00 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, if Wisdom's going to question me about it, I'm going to answer
(7:59:18 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, I'm not going to just ignore him
(7:59:46 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, so:
(8:00:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: He's doing the same thing!
(8:00:24 PM) ArtherDent: That's ok
(8:00:32 PM) CaffieneDeity: If neither of you ignore each other, it'll go on forever. And this is Wisdom we're talking about.
(8:01:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: His perception of forever goes far beyond our tenuous mortal grasps.
(8:01:18 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(8:02:17 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, I want to see how he reacts to being accused of buddying YSK
(8:02:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: Please don't.
(8:02:31 PM) ArtherDent: That should give us information that will be useful later, after af ew flips
(8:02:37 PM) ArtherDent: Sorry, already did
(8:06:32 PM) CaffieneDeity: Stepping away for a moment. Really wish I had a meta on TiphaineDeath now.
(8:07:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: This is so bizarre that...I don't know, maybe there's some Chosen-related motivation to it? Don't bring this up, please, I think it's better not to address that elephant just yet.
(8:34:04 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(8:34:04 PM) CaffieneDeity <AUTO-REPLY>: I'm not here right now
(9:42:38 PM) CaffieneDeity: Any chance I can send you on a meta errand?
(9:50:56 PM) ArtherDent: Sure
(9:51:45 PM) CaffieneDeity: TiphaineDeath.
(9:51:49 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(9:52:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: Should be easier than the more verbose players, at least.
(9:54:02 PM) ArtherDent: Mmm
(9:54:49 PM) ArtherDent: Well, let's see. In Micro 476 he was a town tracker, and just a quick glance at his posts makes him look a little more coherent then he's been in this game
(9:55:06 PM) ArtherDent: Still just one-liners, but a little more coherent
(9:55:09 PM) ArtherDent: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
(9:56:08 PM) ArtherDent: Just a quick skim-through
(9:56:15 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, to be fair, we are just about 24 hours into the game.
(9:56:21 PM) ArtherDent: Sue
(9:56:23 PM) CaffieneDeity: He seems pretty lurky here too, looking at timestamps.
(9:56:23 PM) ArtherDent: Sure
(9:56:35 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, the lurky and the short posts are part of his meta
(9:56:50 PM) ArtherDent: But in that game, I can see what he's trying to do, at least
(9:56:55 PM) ArtherDent: Here, I don't get it
(9:57:25 PM) ArtherDent: let me look at another game
(9:58:23 PM) CaffieneDeity: "There were 17, count them 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17 posts, such a small number that I was bored enough to fucking TYPE-THEM-OUT, before guile's first post in which he named 3 scum-suspects, and then happily voted on the largest current wagon." ...also, I think we still haven't actually names three scum suspects.
(9:58:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: At least together.
(9:59:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: 17 posts is a lot, but it's not THAT much. And this was post 61, so most of those were probably RVSy bullshit.
(10:00:33 PM) ArtherDent: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
(10:01:02 PM) ArtherDent: In this game his play reminds me of stuff I've seen here, and he's town in htat game too
(10:03:46 PM) ArtherDent: So, I donno
(10:04:10 PM) ArtherDent: Meta read: inconclusive. He can play like this as town.
(10:04:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: All right, good to know.
(10:05:24 PM) ArtherDent: My list was kind of weak, but eh. Best I could do
(10:05:43 PM) CaffieneDeity: It's cool.
(10:05:47 PM) CaffieneDeity: We're 24 hours into the game!
(10:05:57 PM) ArtherDent: Heh
(10:06:06 PM) ArtherDent: And we've already survived one near-death moment
(10:07:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: I will say that, while I'd prefer not to keep dealing with this in every 2015 game, it did kick us out of the RVS pretty decisively.
(10:08:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: I am still not actually sure who's scum.
(10:08:25 PM) ArtherDent: aYeah
(10:08:45 PM) ArtherDent: At this point, I'd vote for anyone on the bottom half of my list
(10:08:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: I do think YGS's meta implies that Wanderer is town, or at least someone to write off?
(10:08:59 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(10:09:05 PM) ArtherDent: Maybe?
(10:09:14 PM) ArtherDent: It would be a ballsy move
(10:09:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think that hammering us would ever come with impunity, declaration or not.
(10:10:01 PM) ArtherDent: Not with "impunity", but saying "intent to hammer" first would help him defend himself if he did hammer
(10:10:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wanderer's a she, I think.
(10:10:21 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(10:10:30 PM) CaffieneDeity: And I still don't...think it would actually work?
(10:10:33 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(10:10:49 PM) ArtherDent: Probably?
(10:11:03 PM) ArtherDent: Maybe?
(10:11:18 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, it's a more direct/balsy move then even I would do as scum
(10:11:34 PM) ArtherDent: But I don't want to rule it out
(10:11:42 PM) ArtherDent: Ignoring that, her other posts are kind of bad too
(10:13:50 PM) CaffieneDeity: Eh. Nothing special, but I don't really mind them.
(10:14:29 PM) ArtherDent: eh. I'm not really calling the "intent to hammer" post scummy, but I'm not going to call it a town tell either
(10:15:23 PM) CaffieneDeity: "I understand now what Xay meant when he said it would have been better to hang around for him.." Also, I'm still weirded out that this is a thing. Not in a scummy sense, but in a "Jesus christ, 2015, you have NO IDEA who we are" sense.
(10:17:14 PM) ArtherDent: Well, we haven't played in a while, and they're all newbies
(10:17:26 PM) ArtherDent: Well, ok,I shouldn't call someone who's been playing since 2012 a newbie
(10:17:39 PM) CaffieneDeity: They're all newbies.
(10:17:44 PM) ArtherDent: Yes
(10:18:11 PM) ArtherDent: If we had to vote right now, who would you vote for
(10:18:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: Uh...Wisdom or Crazy, which is annoying.
(10:19:03 PM) ArtherDent: Crazy only made one post, but I kind of like it
(10:19:03 PM) CaffieneDeity: Probably Wisdom, because it would draw more reactions.
(10:19:14 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(10:19:19 PM) ArtherDent: Wisdom feels a little off
(10:20:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: I just wish I had something to compare him to.
(10:20:24 PM) ArtherDent: Crazy's one post has a good, solid vote, on wanderer, a good question directed at wanderer, and a good question at wisdom
(10:20:51 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think we can meta him, though. I mean, some people who've actually played with him probably could, but we can't just ISO him and expect that to work.
(10:20:53 PM) ArtherDent: The vote makes sense to me, and the people he's questioning are the same people I suspect
(10:21:07 PM) ArtherDent: Also, Wisdom's reaction to his post bothers me
(10:21:25 PM) ArtherDent: That's one of the problems I have with Wisdom's play
(10:21:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh.
(10:21:59 PM) ArtherDent: Crazy makes a good vote, and questions Wisdom, and not only does he not answer the question, he calls the post "useless" and votes him
(10:22:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think that Crazy's Wanderer vote is remotely townish, and I don't really blame Wisdom for voting him.
(10:22:10 PM) ArtherDent: Again, just a weird reaction
(10:22:14 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(10:22:37 PM) ArtherDent: Wanderer might not be scum
(10:22:52 PM) ArtherDent: But, meh
(10:23:04 PM) ArtherDent: Need more then 1 post to get a read on Crazy, of course
(10:23:17 PM) ArtherDent: But I guess you can't really call someone lurking who's posted once in 24 hours and it's a post with content
(10:25:08 PM) ArtherDent: On an unrelated note, Heather is blowing her homemade digeredoo at the puppy, and he's barking at it.
(10:25:52 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, I'd probably either vote Wisdom or Klick right now
(10:27:23 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh, right, forgot that Klick was even in this game.
(10:27:39 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, totally useless lurker so far
(10:28:06 PM) ArtherDent: But I guess we don't have to vote anyone right now, we've been the center of attention enough
(10:35:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: I hope people don't try to enforce that whole not wanting to vote early thing I insisted on in future games.
(10:35:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, it's true, as a general rule of thumb.
(10:35:55 PM) CaffieneDeity: But it's not, like, ALWAYS true, it depends on my mood.
(10:38:16 PM) ArtherDent: Don't worry too much about that
(10:38:27 PM) ArtherDent: Never let your meta get in the way of playing the way you want to play
(10:38:31 PM) CaffieneDeity: Mm.
(10:38:50 PM) ArtherDent: Some people "typecast" themselves in a narrow meta and then feel they can't ever leave that meta
(10:38:52 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm still just in an "ugh, post-damage control" state, I guess.
(10:39:09 PM) ArtherDent: IMHO, that just hurts their play, over stuff that 99% nobody else would even notice
(10:39:36 PM) ArtherDent: You're always way more perceptive about your own meta then anyone else is
(10:40:55 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, I'm probably not gonna actually get in serious trouble over it.
(10:40:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: Probably.
(10:41:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: It'll just be dumb.
(10:41:12 PM) ArtherDent: (nods)
(10:41:25 PM) ArtherDent: Really, IMHO, just do whatever you want, and let other people worry about your meta
(10:41:34 PM) ArtherDent: Sometimes other people will say dumb stuff about your meta
(10:41:44 PM) ArtherDent: But that's true even if you play exactally the same all of the time anyway
(10:41:50 PM) CaffieneDeity: I do kind of feel like it'll be harder to look obvtown in 2015 than it used to be?
(10:41:56 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(10:41:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: But eh, 24 hours into the game etc etc.
(10:42:01 PM) ArtherDent: Who knows
(10:42:18 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, this is the second game in a row where I saw new players bandwagon someone to lynch -1 on page 1
(10:42:24 PM) ArtherDent: And nobody batted an eye
(10:42:25 PM) CaffieneDeity: Most of the dumb stuff people say about my meta works out in my favor, though.
(10:42:27 PM) ArtherDent: So maybe that's just a thing now
(10:42:30 PM) CaffieneDeity: Or said, anyway.
(10:42:33 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(10:42:40 PM) ArtherDent: 's all good
(10:42:43 PM) ArtherDent: We got ids
(10:42:48 PM) ArtherDent: Erm, we got dis, I mean
(10:42:58 PM) ArtherDent: I guess we also have ids, but that's different
(10:43:01 PM) CaffieneDeity: Mm.
(10:43:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also I should have probably played up the meta more, but ugh, damage control.
(10:43:59 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(10:44:01 PM) ArtherDent: We're fine
(10:44:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh, I know.
(10:44:10 PM) CaffieneDeity: I should have set the seeds better.
(10:44:26 PM) ArtherDent: General rule of thumb, if you get bandwagoned once and the bandwagon goes away, you're less likely to get bandwagoned again in the near future
(10:44:38 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh, yeah.
(10:44:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: This is a "later days + future games with these people" thing.
(10:44:53 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, I'm probably going to bed. Talk to you later
(10:44:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: Night!
(10:44:58 PM) ArtherDent: Sure
(10:45:01 PM) ArtherDent: Good night

(2:01:31 PM) ArtherDent: Heya
(2:01:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: Hi!
(2:01:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: Trying to catch up now, but I won't be on long.
(2:01:47 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(2:01:55 PM) ArtherDent: yeah, I have no idea what's going on in this game now
(2:01:57 PM) CaffieneDeity: Despite what I said about Wisdom last night, I have NO IDEA if he's scum.
(2:02:02 PM) ArtherDent: Agreed
(2:02:20 PM) ArtherDent: I sniped at him one more time, and didn't get a terribly useful response
(2:02:26 PM) ArtherDent: (shrug)
(2:02:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, when I have time I'm going to try to just...I don't know, put some really wishy-washy words together, try to clarify what I think about each of them.
(2:02:33 PM) ArtherDent: But if he's not, then I don't even know where to start
(2:02:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: Lurkers?
(2:02:52 PM) ArtherDent: Really aren't any
(2:02:59 PM) ArtherDent: At least, not by normal standards
(2:03:09 PM) CaffieneDeity: Normal standards have changed, I think.
(2:03:16 PM) ArtherDent: Game is only about 48 hours old, and even the most lurkerish players have now made a few decent content posts
(2:03:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, we are less than--yeah.
(2:03:27 PM) CaffieneDeity: But I think this is the new normal.
(2:03:33 PM) ArtherDent: By "normal standards", I mean "games that don't have wisdom in them"
(2:03:39 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well, maybe not THIS, we're at--yes
(2:03:43 PM) ArtherDent: I'm in a few games now, and none of them are moving anywhere near this fast
(2:03:43 PM) CaffieneDeity: That guy.
(2:04:10 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, the two "lurkers" have both made posts I kind of like
(2:04:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: I still don't like Crazy.
(2:04:22 PM) ArtherDent: Not enough to town-read them, but, meh
(2:04:23 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(2:04:27 PM) CaffieneDeity: From what I've been reading.
(2:04:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: Maybe meta TiphaineDeath and try to compare his scum game to his town game?
(2:04:39 PM) ArtherDent: His interaction with wisdom makes him look slightly better then wisdom
(2:04:45 PM) CaffieneDeity: I disagree.
(2:04:55 PM) ArtherDent: Although I donno, maybe the dismissive way widsom is responding is a town tell
(2:05:06 PM) ArtherDent: No idea how to read that guy
(2:05:53 PM) ArtherDent: I don't know what to think about TiphaineDeath
(2:06:18 PM) ArtherDent: Although just to drive myself even crazier, terrible players who are easy lynches are slightly more likely then random to end up chosen, right?
(2:06:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: Like..."Wisdom and EtherDent also spent a lot of time debating whether or not it's a good idea to put someone at L-1 on the first page." I mean, I agree with him, buuuuut I kind of blame both of you for that, and I'm not exactly surprised that Wisdom would, you know, have the reaction that involves posting more instead of the reaction that involves posting less.
(2:06:50 PM) ArtherDent: I honestly do like the way that Crazy is still trying to question Wisdom on stuff
(2:06:51 PM) CaffieneDeity: Sliiiightly.
(2:07:04 PM) ArtherDent: Even as Wisdom insults him and tries to brush him off, he just keeps trying to get a real answer
(2:08:30 PM) ArtherDent: Honestly, I'm leaning towards that whole interaction being town v town
(2:08:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh.
(2:08:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: Sorry. I'm not seeing it.
(2:08:48 PM) ArtherDent: (shrug)
(2:09:00 PM) ArtherDent: He certanly could be scum doing fake scumhunting
(2:09:32 PM) CaffieneDeity: I just don't think it's a very strong indication of scumhunting.
(2:09:34 PM) ArtherDent: But he just looks like a plodding townie to me, trying to play the normal way, confused why Wisdom isn't responding the way he's "supposed to", trying several times, and evnetually voting him
(2:09:36 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(2:09:46 PM) ArtherDent: It's certanly something scum could fake
(2:10:51 PM) ArtherDent: Just. I donno, reminds me of stuff I sometimes do as town

[...]

(2:15:34 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, so, I could just make a post saying that the two of us are split on Crazy and we want to hear some other reads from him
(2:16:22 PM) CaffieneDeity: To be honest I think the thread has had enough of us talking about how dissonant we are.
(2:16:41 PM) ArtherDent: Heh
(2:17:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: Which is annoying, but still.
(2:17:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: I did kind of abuse dissonance to get away with your YGS vote back there.
(2:17:40 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, I was telling the truth, I wouldn't have voted him and didn't want to, but that's not how it looked to them.
(2:17:41 PM) ArtherDent: Eh, I donno. It's truthful, and it makes it look like we're actually discussing and debating scum reads with each other
(2:17:59 PM) ArtherDent: And it stops us from contradicting ourselves later if we go in different directions on him
(2:18:58 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, the two of us can each make as many posts as we individually would in a normal game and we still won't be the most active person in the thread, lol
(2:19:58 PM) ArtherDent: I donno. We could just go after TiphaineDeath on the theory that he's given off less total town tells then everyone else.
(2:20:07 PM) ArtherDent: I resort to that sometimes when I have no other ideas
(2:20:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: When I have time, which isn't gonna be now, I'll try to sort things out and ask questions and stuff.
(2:21:19 PM) ArtherDent: ok
(2:21:25 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also, maybe read that game Wisdom linked to?
(2:21:29 PM) CaffieneDeity: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=49080
(2:21:39 PM) CaffieneDeity: And Xayzeck's.
(2:22:24 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, what am I looking for here? Wisdom and Xayzeck?
(2:22:49 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wisdom used it as evidence of Crazy being scum here, but according to Xayzeck that's just Crazy in general.
(2:23:27 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(2:23:29 PM) CaffieneDeity: So...I don't know. I'm just kind of assuming Xayzeck is town at this point, anyway.
(2:23:45 PM) ArtherDent: I have no idea what alignment anyone is in this game, mod doesn't list it in the first post
(2:24:05 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, got it. Wisdom and Crazy are scum
(2:24:24 PM) ArtherDent: Kind of a ballsy move for Wisdom to link to a game whee he was scum
(2:24:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh, heh. I thought you were joking about FakeGod's modding in the Chosen game.
(2:24:58 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, lol
(2:25:57 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(2:26:17 PM) ArtherDent: Crazy does have the same calm, "I'm going to ask you obvious questions with a straight face" playstyle in the game Wisdom linked to
(2:27:20 PM) ArtherDent: Also, Crazy voted his scum boddy (Wisdom) on the second page of that thread, something to keep in mind
(2:28:54 PM) CaffieneDeity: And Wisdom says that Xayzeck's assessment of Crazy's town meta is wrong.
(2:28:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: So that's something to look into.
(2:29:06 PM) ArtherDent: Xay is in this game too
(2:29:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: Mm.
(2:29:41 PM) ArtherDent: And interestingly, in this game Xay calls out Crazy for "questions feel pointless and forced, stiff and rigid vibe. almost uncomfortable."
(2:29:45 PM) ArtherDent: Xay is town, Crazy is scum
(2:29:52 PM) ArtherDent: In that game, I mean
(2:29:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: Huh.
(2:30:00 PM) ArtherDent: So it's interesting Xay is responding differnetly here
(2:30:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(2:30:37 PM) ArtherDent: Also, Wisdom flat out declares Xay as obvtown on like page 4
(2:30:43 PM) ArtherDent: While Xay is at lynch -1
(2:30:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, pirate mollie did say that Wisdomscum townreads people all over the place.
(2:31:02 PM) ArtherDent: I'm kind of impressed by Wisdom's scum play here, he's going to be really hard to read
(2:31:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: Which is annoying, because back when Klick posted about him townreading three people right off the bat here, I went, "Oh, right, that happened!"
(2:31:45 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(2:32:03 PM) CaffieneDeity: I do think that Wisdom's townread of Klick doesn't make a ton of sense, especially when he attacked pirate mollie so hard for townreading me.
(2:32:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: tl;dr I have no idea what Wisdom is.
(2:32:19 PM) ArtherDent: Wisdom was super-close to being lynched nearly every day in this game, and he stays totally calm and collected, and all of his reads make perfect sense
(2:32:33 PM) ArtherDent: And he was scum and was able to glide through to a flawless scum victory
(2:32:45 PM) CaffieneDeity: Dammit.
(2:32:53 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(2:33:21 PM) ArtherDent: And now Wisdom is voting Crazy on page 6
(2:33:30 PM) ArtherDent: So both Wisdom and Crazy like to vote their scumbuddies
(2:34:37 PM) ArtherDent: On page 8, Xay is attacking Wisdom, and Wisdom is like "Dude, I wish I could play like this a scum"
(2:34:37 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(2:35:05 PM) ArtherDent: On the other hand, I am totally buying that Xay and Wisdom can read each other super-well, they seem to have a lot of history and know each other well
(2:35:48 PM) ArtherDent: Wisdom is trying really hard in this game to get everyone to vote Crazy
(2:36:16 PM) CaffieneDeity: I...don't really blame him, I admit.
(2:36:26 PM) ArtherDent: I'm not going to mention that in the thread, if Wisdom is scum here and wants to bus his buddies we shouldn't get in the way of that
(2:36:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: If you're hinting at this being a Chosen thing.
(2:36:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(2:36:36 PM) ArtherDent: I'm still reading the other game
(2:36:47 PM) ArtherDent: The one were Wisdom and Crazy were scum together
(2:37:03 PM) ArtherDent: In that game, Wisdom is trying really hard to get everyone to vote Crazy
(2:37:11 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh.
(2:37:35 PM) ArtherDent: Everything I've said in the past 15 minutes or so has been abotu the other game
(2:38:05 PM) ArtherDent: So if Wis pushes through a scum lynch in our game, let's not assume that that clears him as town
(2:38:26 PM) CaffieneDeity: Dammit. It is so confusing that multiple games of mafia have been played.
(2:38:33 PM) ArtherDent: ?
(2:38:45 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm just mocking myself, don't mind me.
(2:38:50 PM) ArtherDent: hehe
(2:39:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: I am really glad that one of us is capable of, like, reading games that we were not in.
(2:39:39 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(2:39:43 PM) ArtherDent: It's a neat game
(2:39:46 PM) ArtherDent: And it's only 16 pages
(2:39:48 PM) ArtherDent: It's worth a read
(2:39:51 PM) CaffieneDeity: Weeeeeeird.
(2:40:01 PM) CaffieneDeity: And you say Wisdom survived to the end?
(2:40:45 PM) ArtherDent: Yes
(2:41:31 PM) ArtherDent: Both Wisdom and Crazy
(2:42:05 PM) ArtherDent: They actually managed to lynch the masons
(2:43:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: ...
(2:43:38 PM) ArtherDent: Although of course the masons can't actually claim masons in that setup or the scum wins
(2:43:42 PM) ArtherDent: So it's a little different
(2:43:45 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh.
(2:43:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: Okay.
(2:44:05 PM) ArtherDent: "Mafia and masons" setup, the scum can try to daykill but if the person they daykill is a mason the scum dies instead
(2:44:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh, that thing Pooky made.
(2:45:57 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wow, I didn't realize that kept getting run after that one mini he ran ages ago.
(2:50:33 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, I just make a quick post in my game about my meta-read through.
(2:51:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think reading more Crazy towngames is a good idea here.
(2:52:04 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, probably
(2:52:09 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also I am really glad that one of us can sit through games that we weren't in. I'm sorry.
(2:52:20 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(2:52:22 PM) ArtherDent: It's all good
(2:52:41 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, I'm going to go out for a bit now, talk to you later
(2:52:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, fair.
(2:52:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: Bye!
(3:30:03 PM) ArtherDent: :wave:
(3:30:03 PM) CaffieneDeity <AUTO-REPLY>: I'm not here right now
(5:47:37 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, I kind of want to vote for TD. His thought process is so bizzare it makes me hard to believe he could be town.
(5:47:37 PM) CaffieneDeity <AUTO-REPLY>: I'm not here right now
(7:13:52 PM) CaffieneDeity: Okay, back, let's see how many more pages there are.
(7:14:01 PM) CaffieneDeity: Argh. I'm tired.
(7:14:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: Only two? Whew.
(7:14:30 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(7:16:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: Does Crazy's town game seem to be any different?
(7:16:34 PM) ArtherDent: Didn't meta him in any other games yet
(7:18:22 PM) CaffieneDeity: "5. EtherDent (Ether + Yosarian2)"
(7:18:26 PM) CaffieneDeity: I like that this is our alignment.
(7:18:56 PM) ArtherDent: :)
(7:19:49 PM) CaffieneDeity: "Why do you only have one townread?" I am not sure if I love the fact that we're at this point at less than 48 hours into the game, or hate it.
(7:20:06 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also I am not sure if I actually have more than one townread, but eh.
(7:20:24 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(7:20:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh, right, I'm still assuming Xayzeck is town. Forgot that guy.
(7:20:36 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(7:20:50 PM) CaffieneDeity: Okay, existential crisis solved.
(7:20:51 PM) ArtherDent: I guess I'm going to have to provisonally call Wisdom town
(7:21:10 PM) ArtherDent: Don't really want to, and I don't trust it
(7:21:27 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh.
(7:21:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: Haven't finished reading yet, though.
(7:26:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also, do you have any experience with Salamence20 or implosion?
(7:26:39 PM) CaffieneDeity: I gotta avatarize them.
(7:26:46 PM) ArtherDent: Don't think so
(8:37:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: So many pages have been made that I'm at a loss for even figuring out how to best catch up.
(8:37:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: Not that I haven't read them, just...
(8:40:45 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(8:41:08 PM) ArtherDent: Well, you know
(8:41:12 PM) ArtherDent: It's still early in the game
(8:41:18 PM) ArtherDent: Even if it doesn't feel like it
(8:41:22 PM) CaffieneDeity: I know. x_x
(8:45:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: Okay mollie's assessment of me makes me feel better about her.
(8:45:21 PM) CaffieneDeity: This might or might not involve buttering me up.
(8:48:43 PM) ArtherDent: Huh
(8:48:57 PM) ArtherDent: Where did you explain that I helped you understand her initial vote?
(8:49:02 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, I did,but I didn't think we said that
(8:49:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: I did at some point, but she got the idea on her own.
(8:49:23 PM) ArtherDent: But, yeah, she seem to really be trying to get inside your head based on what she knows about you
(8:49:28 PM) ArtherDent: Strong town tell
(8:49:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: Like, not entirely on her own, but she figured out what I meant by "sordid rumors."
(8:57:02 PM) ArtherDent: mmm
(8:57:25 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, I've always figured she was town
(8:57:49 PM) ArtherDent: I mean if she was scum she could have just not posted and left us at lynch -1 to see if Wanderer was going to hammer us
(8:58:11 PM) ArtherDent: And she wouldn't have taken any of the blame for doing that
(8:58:16 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(8:58:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: Pretty much everything she's done around us is just townish, aside from getting dragged into that stupid argument with Wisdom, which is more Wisdom's fault.
(8:58:54 PM) CaffieneDeity: I was just bothered by her not having anything on anyone else except us and Wisdom, and I buy her excuse.
(8:59:44 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(9:00:27 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, so I kind of want to vote TD
(9:00:36 PM) ArtherDent: It feels really weird for me going this long without voting for anyone, lol
(9:01:06 PM) ArtherDent: I usually go with the philosaphy that especally on day 1 townies should always be voting for *someone*
(9:01:22 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think he's an easy and awfully convenient target, who might be scum.
(9:01:56 PM) ArtherDent: He's an easy and awfully convenient target
(9:02:05 PM) ArtherDent: And a ton of other people look town
(9:02:07 PM) ArtherDent: And he doesn't
(9:02:21 PM) ArtherDent: His post 330 was just aweful
(9:02:34 PM) ArtherDent: I donno
(9:03:05 PM) ArtherDent: I guess I could picture a townie getting some kind of paranoia about Widom/Xay/mollie
(9:03:08 PM) ArtherDent: Or somethin
(9:03:29 PM) ArtherDent: But I donno, it just feels fake and contrived, and he's unwilling to explain it farther
(9:04:55 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also, this isn't really fair, we're like 48 hours in, but I just want to say something snarky about my altslip rate compared to Klick's posting rate.
(9:04:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'll just say it in here.
(9:05:08 PM) ArtherDent: Heh
(9:05:21 PM) ArtherDent: I kind of like klick's posts, though
(9:05:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(9:05:35 PM) CaffieneDeity: He just...hasn't really done anything, objectionable or otherwise.
(9:05:51 PM) ArtherDent: Not in a strong town-read way, but at least in a "hey, that guys' generating content that I like and makes sense" way
(9:07:19 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, I don't really thing YGS is scum. I don't really think Klick looks like scum. I don't really think Wisdom is scum, honestly, although I don't really trust that read fully. We're not scum. I don't know about Wanderer. I don't know about TD. Xay looks town. Mollie looks supertown
(9:07:43 PM) ArtherDent: So if all that is right, then the two scum are in the group of (Wanderer, TD, Crazy)
(9:07:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think Wanderer is scum, solely because of Bellaphant's meta.
(9:08:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't really know how I feel about YGS.
(9:08:10 PM) ArtherDent: If he's not, though, then who is?
(9:08:11 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(9:08:42 PM) ArtherDent: His reactions to wander feel town-ish
(9:08:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, those do.
(9:09:03 PM) ArtherDent: He hasn't done much else, except put us at lynch -1
(9:09:09 PM) CaffieneDeity: But I think having town reads is just something people are expected to do now.
(9:09:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: The bar has been raised.
(9:09:33 PM) ArtherDent: I'd have a better read on him if you'd let me keep poking him until he answered me direclty, honestly
(9:09:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: Sorry.
(9:09:39 PM) ArtherDent: It's ok
(9:09:48 PM) ArtherDent: It was risky, and I get why you wanted to back off from it
(9:10:42 PM) ArtherDent: But, frankly, if Wisdom is town then his town read on YGS is probably right, and if Wisdom is scum then he's probably buddying with town-YGS
(9:10:55 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh.
(9:10:58 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, that's terrible logic
(9:11:05 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(9:11:12 PM) ArtherDent: It sounded better in my head
(9:11:25 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think Wisdom's scumhunting powers are actually all that good, he's just forceful. That's the impression I get.
(9:11:29 PM) ArtherDent: Ehhh
(9:11:32 PM) ArtherDent: I donno
(9:11:51 PM) ArtherDent: I'd have to do a super-meta dive to figure that out, and it's not worth it
(9:11:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: That's not an assessment from this game specifically, that's having read lots of people complain about him.
(9:12:02 PM) ArtherDent: But you're right, relying on someone else's gut is dumb
(9:12:33 PM) ArtherDent: Even if we wanted to lynch YGS, though, it's clearly not happening today, with both Wisdom and Xay strongly town-reading him
(9:13:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: Maybe he has compelling meta-based reads on individual players, I don't know. But in a vacuum we shouldn't be looking up to him. 2005/2006 would be so ashamed of us.
(9:13:24 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, I'm not looking up to him, lol
(9:13:32 PM) ArtherDent: He just strikes me as one of the smarter newbies
(9:13:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: Heh.
(9:14:02 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think of him as a newbie! He's like the third highest poster on the site.
(9:14:09 PM) CaffieneDeity: NO IDEA HOW THAT HAPPENED.
(9:14:26 PM) ArtherDent: So that's, what, three games?
(9:14:35 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well played.
(9:14:42 PM) ArtherDent: :)
(9:15:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, I have been keeping up enough that some names are familiar and some aren't. So I have something vaguely approaching a newbie-dar.
(9:15:23 PM) ArtherDent: Ah, I see your new posts
(9:15:26 PM) ArtherDent: Ah, cool
(9:15:28 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, I don't
(9:15:43 PM) ArtherDent: Only games I've played recently until right now have been games with mostly or all oldie players
(9:15:48 PM) CaffieneDeity: Although Xayzeck slipped it, back when we were talking about potential vetos.
(9:16:06 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't know, I had seen his name, but I knew literally nothing about him.
(9:16:17 PM) ArtherDent: hmm
(9:16:48 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, I'm stll not sold on Crazy being scummy, although the meta-argument Wisdom made is solid and makes me feel better about Wisdom
(9:17:05 PM) ArtherDent: With that meta, Wisdom's responses to Crazy make a lot more sense now
(9:17:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think I haven't fully absorbed them, to be honest.
(9:17:46 PM) ArtherDent: Like, just the fact that Crazy is responding to everything in almost the exact way I have makes me like him
(9:18:06 PM) ArtherDent: It's funny that I keep end up asking the exact same questions he is, when I haven't read his post yet
(9:18:22 PM) CaffieneDeity: That's fair.
(9:18:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: Could you look up some games with Crazy as town, and/or Tiphaine as scum?
(9:18:59 PM) ArtherDent: I don't know if we're going to get anywhere trying to do a meta read on TD
(9:19:04 PM) ArtherDent: But ok
(9:19:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: Probably not, but it's possible that he's one of those totally backwards people.
(9:19:39 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(9:19:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: It's not that rare!
(9:20:04 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, the games I looked at where TD was town he didn't play great, but I at least understood what he was tryign to say
(9:20:13 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(9:20:16 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, I know a few
(9:20:27 PM) ArtherDent: The only times I played with Fate that I *didn't* try to lynch him was when he was scum
(9:20:45 PM) CaffieneDeity: Lots of newbies, RedCoyote...hell, to some degree you fall under that for other people.
(9:20:46 PM) ArtherDent: It's be like "Hey, Fate is actually playing sliglty less horribly then usual, maybe he's actually getting better.". Nope. Scum.
(9:20:48 PM) CaffieneDeity: The fools.
(9:20:50 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(9:21:09 PM) ArtherDent: Well, when I'm scum, I'm trying to not get lynched
(9:21:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: Right.
(9:21:27 PM) ArtherDent: When I'm town, I don't worry about it anymore. Maybe I should
(9:21:34 PM) ArtherDent: I used to be more cautious as both alignments
(9:21:39 PM) ArtherDent: But, meh, that got boring
(9:21:57 PM) CaffieneDeity: I actually used to be totally backwards, before I became Ether, before I became whatever the hell I am in this game.
(9:22:06 PM) CaffieneDeity: "Okay I was wavering on pirate mollie but I think she's town now." I mean, come on. "I think?"
(9:22:24 PM) ArtherDent: That's a good post
(9:22:25 PM) CaffieneDeity: I keep realizing I put in these waffle-words, but not until I've posted them.
(9:22:29 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh, yeah.
(9:22:30 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(9:22:34 PM) ArtherDent: Game is 48 hours in
(9:22:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: This is me being introspective about myself, not about how I'm not seeing her as town enough.
(9:22:44 PM) ArtherDent: You should still have doubts about everything
(9:22:50 PM) ArtherDent: I know
(9:22:53 PM) ArtherDent: I'm just saying, that's ok
(9:22:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh, yeah.
(9:23:11 PM) ArtherDent: Although, granted, I often post like I'm way more certain then I actually am about things for tactical reasons
(9:23:25 PM) CaffieneDeity: Like I said, this is an observation about how I'm phrasing things. I definitely used to act a lot more certain.
(9:23:34 PM) ArtherDent: "Certanty" is just another variable you can modulate for tactical advantage
(9:23:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: Dunno if that's this game or me. It's not really important, no one is going to call me on this.
(9:24:10 PM) ArtherDent: And right now, "I think she's town" is pleanty. If it looks like she might actually get lynched, we can ratchet it up

[...]

(9:33:07 PM) CaffieneDeity: I just don't know. You didn't threaten to set off the apocalypse, you didn't even coyly hint at it.

[...]

(9:38:31 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah...I would REALLY like to see more from YGS.
(9:39:06 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, but we're not in a tactical position to really go after him right now
(9:39:17 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, you could just say that you want to see more from him
(9:39:24 PM) ArtherDent: But that's about as far as we can og
(9:39:26 PM) ArtherDent: go
(9:40:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also, ISOing, Klick says he thinks he can read Crazy.
(9:41:45 PM) CaffieneDeity: I feel like YGS hasn't done anything since the -1 business, but we ARE only 48 hours in.
(9:43:29 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(9:43:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: Damn Brits and their not being online.
(9:44:00 PM) ArtherDent: It's kind of hard to call someone a lurker when he posted about 13 hours ago
(9:45:13 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, I've already made a ton of posts discussing how anti-town his play was since then in my discussion with wisdom, maybe we'll get some info if he responds to those

[...]

(9:56:59 PM) ArtherDent: So, I guess I should go ahead and vote TD before bed, if that's ok with you
(9:57:07 PM) CaffieneDeity: Of course, yeah, at the moment there isn't really anything else TO dwell on.
(9:57:11 PM) ArtherDent: I couldn't find any useful meta on Crazy that's recent enough to be valid
(9:57:29 PM) ArtherDent: I guess I'll try to find a TD scum game
(9:57:29 PM) CaffieneDeity: Okay.
(9:57:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: Feel free to clarify that we don't agree on Crazy.
(9:57:49 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(9:57:52 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm easily influenced anyway, I'm waffling on him.
(9:58:06 PM) ArtherDent: Neah, I just kind of agreed with Wisdom's case on him
(9:58:17 PM) ArtherDent: Be weird for me to say that I'm leaning town on him right now
(9:58:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: Heh.
(9:58:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: I need to go over that, I wouldn't be able to defend my read on him if he called me on it, honestly.
(9:58:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, I can just say "I don't know, I just do," buuuuuuut.
(9:59:09 PM) ArtherDent: It's 48 hours intothe game
(9:59:10 PM) CaffieneDeity: Man. Being in a game where I am not controlling its pacing is weird.
(9:59:13 PM) ArtherDent: Gut is fine, heh
(9:59:31 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, found a TD scum game
(9:59:55 PM) ArtherDent: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=59140
(10:00:02 PM) ArtherDent: And the mod was also Fake God, lol
(10:01:27 PM) CaffieneDeity: "B)146, ISN'T. YOUR. POST. Your post number happens to be 147, and you my scummy friend, didn't even notice." Really?
(10:01:35 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(10:01:42 PM) ArtherDent: I think I would have read TD as scum in that game
(10:02:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: With that said, I do feel like this is different? Just from a filter.
(10:02:10 PM) ArtherDent: Ehh
(10:02:22 PM) ArtherDent: I can't explain why, but he sounds scummy as heck to me in that game
(10:02:29 PM) ArtherDent: And doesn't in the games where he's town
(10:04:06 PM) ArtherDent: Like, in this game, he just sounds like low effort town
(10:04:09 PM) ArtherDent: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
(10:04:23 PM) ArtherDent: I donno, maybe I'm just projecting since I alrady knew his alignment
(10:04:38 PM) CaffieneDeity: He's like...a lot more confrontational about people calling him out on his bullshit in the looking glass game.
(10:04:43 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(10:05:07 PM) ArtherDent: I donno, I just get the "I want to lynch him/ punch him in the face" in the looking glass game, and not in the summer vacation game
(10:05:51 PM) CaffieneDeity: I actually think he's town in Chosen now, even though I don't want to say that reason immediately because it's a really easy meta to manipulate and I want to see if he does freak out more.
(10:05:54 PM) CaffieneDeity: But...I don't think he will.
(10:05:57 PM) ArtherDent: Oh
(10:05:59 PM) ArtherDent: Interesting
(10:06:12 PM) ArtherDent: The impression I got was that he makes sense when he's town, and doesn't make sense when he's scum
(10:06:16 PM) ArtherDent: And he's not making sense this game
(10:06:35 PM) CaffieneDeity: Hmm. Are there more scum games from him?
(10:07:05 PM) ArtherDent: Hmmm
(10:07:56 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, found one
(10:08:02 PM) ArtherDent: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
(10:08:07 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also just snapping once doesn't automatically make him scum, says my shitty ISO meta.
(10:09:30 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, I have no idea now
(10:09:36 PM) ArtherDent: I don;t think meta is going to be useful o nTD
(10:10:10 PM) CaffieneDeity: Do you still think he's likely to be scum?
(10:10:37 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah; partly process of elimination, partly just because he's not making sense to me
(10:12:22 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, SOMEONE"S got to be scum, right
(10:13:25 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, eh, there's no rush, the game is still young. We can just back off and fade into the background for a bit and see what develops, if you'd rather
(10:14:03 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think fading into the background is a very good idea for me, in general.
(10:14:12 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(10:14:34 PM) ArtherDent: But I think I tend to spend more time in the spotlight then is good for the town, lol
(10:14:41 PM) ArtherDent: At least in this kind of situation
(10:15:08 PM) ArtherDent: So maybe you should go on the attack and I'll fade into the background, just to mix things up! lol
(10:15:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: Man, I'd love to if I had scum reads.
(10:15:38 PM) CaffieneDeity: I function a lot better when I'm leading a charge.
(10:15:59 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(10:17:11 PM) ArtherDent: Although on day 1, I'm usually fine if I can get 3 or 4 town reads and then lead a charge against someone I don't have a town read on
(10:17:26 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, towns do so terrible on day 1 anyway, I'm not really worried that I'll do *worse* then that
(10:17:49 PM) ArtherDent: Wasn't there a tread on MD a while back that towns literally do worse then random on day 1?
(10:18:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: Maybe?
(10:18:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think it depends on the setup.
(10:18:33 PM) ArtherDent: mmm
(10:18:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: Some times do horrifically worse than random, period.
(10:18:40 PM) CaffieneDeity: Er. Towns.
(10:18:44 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(10:18:58 PM) ArtherDent: Someone compiled a massive amount of data from mini games way back in the day
(10:19:08 PM) ArtherDent: And ran crazy statisitcal analysis on it
(10:19:27 PM) ArtherDent: And that was one of the conclusions, that towns actually lynch scum less often on day 1 then if they lynched totally at random
(10:19:42 PM) ArtherDent: But it gets better in later days
(10:20:10 PM) ArtherDent: I assume that means that the scum block are on average good at using their votes to tilt the lynch away from them, especally when the town has zero information
(10:21:09 PM) ArtherDent: So my conclusion was that if you're town, you should take the lead, because you may be right or you may be wrong, but if someone else takes the lead they may be right or wrong or scum
(10:22:43 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, yeah, I kind of want to vote TD and see what happens
(10:23:52 PM) CaffieneDeity: I actually wanted to triplepost and say that I was waffling and complain about the pacing and try to buy more time to think. x_x
(10:23:57 PM) CaffieneDeity: Damn pacing.
(10:24:15 PM) ArtherDent: I'm not going to say it in thread, but something about Wisdom's posts attacking TD here remind me of when he was bussing Crazy.
(10:24:29 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh?
(10:25:46 PM) ArtherDent: Ok but I'm still town and you should vote crazy
(10:25:47 PM) ArtherDent: Next post:
(10:25:55 PM) ArtherDent: dear collective, im town. dont be crazy and vote crazy
(10:25:58 PM) ArtherDent: Next post:
(10:26:04 PM) ArtherDent: Xay vote crazy
(10:26:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think this might just be Wisdom.
(10:26:36 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(10:26:40 PM) ArtherDent: probably
(10:26:54 PM) ArtherDent: But if Wisdom and TD were scum together, Wisdom would bus the SHIT out of him
(10:26:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, I haven't read that game or any others of his, but...
(10:27:20 PM) ArtherDent: I donno. Probably thinking about this too deeply
(10:27:47 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think that's a very dangerous reason to vote who he votes.
(10:27:53 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, that's not why
(10:27:55 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also, possibly even more dangerous in a Chosen.
(10:28:04 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(10:28:05 PM) ArtherDent: Good point.
(10:28:19 PM) ArtherDent: It's more like "this wagon is wher ethe cool people are". But, yeah, chosen game, rught
(10:28:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: I still think most scum wouldn't start a Day 1 chosen wagon themselves. Note that I have done barely any of that reading I said I would.
(10:29:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: But if there's an exception, Wisdom's a good candidate for it!
(10:29:16 PM) ArtherDent: sure
(10:29:18 PM) ArtherDent: Just
(10:29:20 PM) ArtherDent: Meh.
(10:29:25 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh.
(10:29:35 PM) ArtherDent: We've got to lynch someone, and I literally have no other ideas
(10:29:40 PM) ArtherDent: Which is bad, since there has to be two scum
(10:29:51 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh is an accurate description of my reads right now.
(10:30:19 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(10:30:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think TiphaineDeath is in the "deceptively easy targets" pile? I don't know. Again, I really want to see more from YGS and Klick, but I'm a hipster.
(10:30:45 PM) ArtherDent: I think scum are probably in the group of (crazy, wisdom, wanderer, TD)
(10:31:15 PM) ArtherDent: I can't see Mollie as scum, I can't see Xay as scum, we're not scum, I don't think YGS is scum, and I don't think Klick is scum
(10:31:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: I still think Wanderer is probably town for what YGS said, unless YGS actually does flip scum.
(10:31:24 PM) ArtherDent: Of course, one of those town reads is likely wrong
(10:31:29 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh.
(10:31:30 PM) ArtherDent: Meh.
(10:32:17 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, so if wanderer is probably town, then that just leaves crazy, wisdom, and TD
(10:32:34 PM) ArtherDent: But crazy-TD doesn't really make sense as a scumgroup? Maybe?
(10:33:15 PM) CaffieneDeity: Honestly I have no idea. I've spent more time complaining about my reads than trying to update them.
(10:33:20 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(10:33:43 PM) ArtherDent: I don't really believe wisdom is scum
(10:34:10 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, I would like him to be scum, that would be convienent, and I still don't really think he is
(10:34:49 PM) ArtherDent: There's a couple of people who have made a couple of decent posts but are otherwise just floating around, like Klink or YGS, one of them could be
(10:35:01 PM) ArtherDent: Meh, we don't have enough yet.
(10:39:58 PM) ArtherDent: Alright. Well, if you don't want me to vote for TD right now, I'm going to go to bed
(10:40:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: "Actually no I am waffling even more on both of them urrrrrrgh.

Being in a game at this pace is weird. This is me jumping on the "stop expecting people to have reads, Wisdom, you are oppressing me" pile.

(So, uh, mollie > Wanderer > Xayzeck I'm leaning town on, Wisdom is in UrghIHaveNoFuckingIdeaHowToReadThisGuyLand, Klick is eh, YGS I distrust but hydra dissonance, Crazy and Tiphaine I am just muddling myself further at the moment and I wouldn't really have the heart to push a wagon on them either.)

-Ether" is what I'm contemplating posting.
(10:40:56 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(10:41:07 PM) ArtherDent: I don't know if we need to post something that wishy-washy
(10:41:27 PM) ArtherDent: You just posted, you don't really need to triple post
(10:41:49 PM) ArtherDent: Eh. Actually, I take that back
(10:42:06 PM) ArtherDent: You should play like Ether. That works for you. And part of that is the way you're just extremly transparant about your thoughts
(10:42:16 PM) ArtherDent: So go ahead and post that
(10:43:10 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think I'm playing like Ether, exactly, but...
(10:43:14 PM) ArtherDent: I'm thinking that instead of us trying to mix our playstyles and meet somewhere in the mushy middle, you should just play like Ether, I'll play like Yosarian, and we'll crush all the peasents benith our mighty double-barreled shotgun of awesomeness
(10:44:16 PM) ArtherDent: I think i remember that that's what we used to do when we hydra-ed, and it worked really well
(10:45:15 PM) CaffieneDeity: We also had someone who we both really wanted dead.
(10:45:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: That'll be nice.
(10:45:29 PM) ArtherDent: We will
(10:46:55 PM) ArtherDent: Also, one good thing about wanderer being in the game is that we can both post whenever we feel like it and our hydra still won't be the most active slot in the game, lol
(10:47:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, but being the most active slot in the game is fun.
(10:48:00 PM) ArtherDent: Sure

[...]

(10:53:49 PM) CaffieneDeity: Anyway, I'm gonna waffle, I guess.
(10:53:52 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(10:53:56 PM) ArtherDent: Go for it
(10:54:16 PM) ArtherDent: If nothing changed by tommorow, though, I may get us of the TD wagon just to see where that goes
(10:54:25 PM) CaffieneDeity: Okay.
(10:54:34 PM) ArtherDent: But for now, yeah, waffle to your heart's content
(10:54:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: Tomorrow will bring another 40 pages, I'm sure we'll have something.
(10:54:44 PM) ArtherDent: Haha
(10:54:45 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(10:55:06 PM) CaffieneDeity: 39 of those pages will be Wisdom.
(10:55:28 PM) ArtherDent: Only if he starts arguing with himself
(10:55:35 PM) ArtherDent: Which, I conceed, is totally possible
(10:57:06 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, I think so far we're doing good, even after a terrifying start
(10:57:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: Mm.
(10:57:27 PM) ArtherDent: Several people now think we're town
(10:57:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: That I'm not too worried about.
(10:57:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: Just reads.
(10:57:45 PM) ArtherDent: And Wisdom decided to back off from attacking us because he got tired of arguing with me
(10:57:52 PM) ArtherDent: I think I should get a medal for that
(10:57:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: Huh. Was that what happened?
(10:58:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well done!
(10:58:43 PM) ArtherDent: Here's the quote:
(10:58:48 PM) ArtherDent: "i unvoted you and specifically said I want to give you space because I'd rather not get into tunnelwar with you once more. Do you even read my posts?"
(10:59:09 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(10:59:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: Awesome.
(10:59:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wait.
(10:59:25 PM) CaffieneDeity: No, that was to pirate mollie.
(10:59:37 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, are you sure?
(10:59:40 PM) CaffieneDeity: Pretty sure!
(10:59:58 PM) ArtherDent: Ah
(11:00:00 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(11:00:02 PM) ArtherDent: That makes sense
(11:01:12 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, so I guess Wisdom now thinks that the scum are TD and Crazy, which is exactally what we are saying
(11:01:30 PM) ArtherDent: Interesting
(11:01:48 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think part of that is that we're being influenced by Wisdom.
(11:01:56 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(11:01:58 PM) ArtherDent: Maybe?
(11:02:10 PM) CaffieneDeity: Okay. I think part of that is that I'm being influenced by Wisdom.
(11:02:14 PM) ArtherDent: Well, on Crazy, ok
(11:02:20 PM) ArtherDent: Wisdom's meta case made sense there
(11:02:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, fair.
(11:02:36 PM) ArtherDent: On TD, he's been near the top of my suspect list for a while, and has only been gettign worse
(11:04:03 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, I called TD suspicious as long ago as post 168
(11:04:16 PM) ArtherDent: Which was, you know, yesterday night
(11:04:29 PM) CaffieneDeity: An eternity ago in Chosen time.
(11:04:36 PM) ArtherDent: hehe
(11:04:48 PM) ArtherDent: He voted Xay
(11:04:55 PM) ArtherDent: Then he said Xay was "scum with ether"
(11:05:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, yeah, that made no fucking sense.
(11:05:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: Okay. I'm going to trust you and our shitty ISO metas.
(11:05:50 PM) ArtherDent: Then in his next post, he first of all says Mollie looks town in the explosion, and then says that it's weird that wis changed his mind and backed off of mollie, which also makes no sense. And then calls mollie scum right after calling mollie town
(11:05:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: Actually wait no, we weren't trusting those either.
(11:06:06 PM) ArtherDent: I just
(11:06:33 PM) ArtherDent: want to vote for TD until he starts making sense, or dies. Either way.
(11:07:11 PM) ArtherDent: Like, every single post he's made this game is terrible
(11:07:31 PM) ArtherDent: Well, except the one where Wisdom called him scum and he just told Wisdom "You're not good at this"
(11:07:44 PM) ArtherDent: That I kind of liked, although for the wrong reaons, lol
(11:08:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: Heh.
(11:09:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: To be honest I think this conversation is just making me more muddled. I should be rereading the actual posts which Crazy has been making.
(11:09:22 PM) ArtherDent: Yes
(11:10:43 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, I go to bed now. Good night
(11:10:48 PM) CaffieneDeity: Night!
(11:10:58 PM) ArtherDent: Feel free to do whatever feels right. :)

(11:07:12 AM) CaffieneDeity: A part of me is kind of wondering if Crazy was right about Wanderer now, but I don't really want to say it in-thread yet.
(11:07:28 AM) ArtherDent: mmm
(11:07:58 AM) ArtherDent: Well, maybe we'll get a better read off of the replacement
(11:08:07 AM) CaffieneDeity: Maybe!
(11:15:09 AM) CaffieneDeity: Fucking hell, that activity overview.
(11:15:51 AM) ArtherDent: Oh?
(11:16:09 AM) CaffieneDeity: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... rt_order=d
(11:16:25 AM) ArtherDent: Heh
(1:23:15 PM) ArtherDent: (waves)
(1:23:15 PM) CaffieneDeity <AUTO-REPLY>: I'm not here right now
(1:50:26 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, lord. Wanderer is going to be replaced by someone even dumber
(1:50:45 PM) CaffieneDeity: What's Not_Mafia like?
(1:51:00 PM) ArtherDent: He's the guy who put someone else at lynch -1 on page 1 of Time Travel mafia
(1:51:21 PM) ArtherDent: He was on both town bandwagons, made worthless 1 line posts, and was basically totally worthless
(1:51:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: Ah.
(1:51:55 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, my bad
(1:52:04 PM) ArtherDent: He was actually on all three town bandwagons
(1:52:06 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(1:52:35 PM) ArtherDent: Oh well
(1:52:43 PM) ArtherDent: At least I've seen him play once
(2:23:02 PM) CaffieneDeity: "I like Wisdom for town so far, I saw his scum game in that awful pokemon game and while it has the same spammy quality, he's definitely more confident/assertive (these aren't the exact right words but they're the closest I can articulate) as town and that's the quality I see here." Do you think there's anything to this compared to his play in that other scum game you read?
(2:23:27 PM) ArtherDent: No, he looked pretty confident in that other scum game
(2:24:13 PM) ArtherDent: I actually had typed out a whole response to Not_Mafia about that first sentance of his post, pointing out that it's bizzare of him of all people to not get why I don't like to see a lynch -1 wagon on page 1 when we just were in a game together where that resulted in a page 1 lynch
(2:24:22 PM) ArtherDent: But I deleted it, it's probably not wroth it
(2:24:42 PM) ArtherDent: Especally since even after that page 1 lynch not_mafia *still* didn't seem to underatnd that the lynch -1 vote was a bad play
(2:24:57 PM) ArtherDent: Plus, I attacked him for that in that game and I was scum, so he might think that's part of my scum play
(2:25:00 PM) ArtherDent: So, meh.
(2:25:49 PM) ArtherDent: not_mafia could be scum here, but not enough info to tell yet
(2:26:12 PM) ArtherDent: I don't like the attack on mollie
(2:30:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, it doesn't really make sense from Page 4.
(2:34:35 PM) ArtherDent: Of course, in that one post, not_mafia posted more coherent content then he did in all of Time Travel Mafia
(2:34:45 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(2:35:45 PM) CaffieneDeity: I hate my play this game so much. x_x
(2:36:08 PM) ArtherDent: Don't start doubting yourself
(2:36:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: "Start?"
(2:36:22 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(2:36:30 PM) ArtherDent: You know what I mean
(2:37:25 PM) ArtherDent: It's day 1, we have no information, and you're doing fine
(2:37:41 PM) ArtherDent: It's ok to not feel confdient about anything at this point in the game
(2:37:58 PM) ArtherDent: That's probably a sign that you have an accurate perception of your own state of knowlege
(2:38:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: Is there a word that's like cockblocking, but unisex and it applies to being blocked from taking over a town and twisting it to my purposes until the terrain itself is something that I can wield as a great and terrible queen, gaining more knowledge with every post?
(2:38:40 PM) CaffieneDeity: That is what Wisdom did to me.
(2:38:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: Or possibly a four year personality shift.
(2:39:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: One of those things.
(2:39:35 PM) ArtherDent: hehe
(2:39:38 PM) ArtherDent: It might be neither
(2:40:13 PM) ArtherDent: My precenption of youir town play is that it's always been true that half the time you're unsure, insecure, self-doubting, and quiet, and then the other half the time you break the game wide open and catch all the scum
(2:40:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: You're right.
(2:40:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: I forgot that part.
(2:42:49 PM) ArtherDent: And when you're insecure, you still correctly read me as town and just sheep on me, so that works out well too
(2:42:51 PM) ArtherDent: ;)
(2:43:33 PM) ArtherDent: Seriously, just don't psych yourself out here
(2:43:40 PM) ArtherDent: And you'll be fine
(2:45:59 PM) ArtherDent: Nice posts, by the way
(2:46:42 PM) ArtherDent: We could start a bandwagon on not_mafia and see where that goes. Also, the fact that mollie also is getting a scum vibe from TD and she's played with him before is making me more confident about that wagon, be willing to go there as well
(2:47:26 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, you've got my permission.
(2:47:31 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(2:48:20 PM) ArtherDent: Also, a TD-wanderer scum group actually makes sense
(2:48:35 PM) ArtherDent: TD called two people "null" in his list, and one of them was wanderer
(2:49:05 PM) ArtherDent: But yeah, I'm going to go ahead and vote TD
(2:55:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also I do want to let Not_Mafia, you know, catch up.
(3:05:47 PM) CaffieneDeity: Bluh.
(3:08:24 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(3:10:52 PM) CaffieneDeity: (Other reasons we need to ascend and take over: if this chat log is just me angsting for two or more weeks, I don't want people to read that after the game.)
(3:11:00 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(3:16:21 PM) CaffieneDeity: "Yosarian's theory argument is really boring and I have trouble believing it's his actual opinion when he's been around as long as he has." Everything after 2014 has always existed forever, you know.
(3:16:57 PM) ArtherDent: Heh
(3:19:41 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, I rose to that bait
(3:19:44 PM) ArtherDent: Because, really, fuck that
(3:20:03 PM) ArtherDent: I was willing to ignore his first comment, but that was just totally bullshit
(3:20:06 PM) CaffieneDeity: Eh, he started it this time.
(3:20:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: Don't blame you at all.
(3:24:47 PM) ArtherDent: See how he reacts to that
(3:25:08 PM) ArtherDent: If his response looks scummy I'm totally
(3:25:13 PM) ArtherDent: voting him
(3:25:16 PM) CaffieneDeity: Okay.
(3:26:14 PM) ArtherDent: Also, he called us town in his first read-through, then I attacked him, now he's looking for an excuse to call me scum
(3:26:30 PM) CaffieneDeity: Mm.
(3:27:01 PM) CaffieneDeity: I will say that I do think it's funny that the one point in his favor in my book is that meta tell YGS posted, and Wanderer SAID that she knew YGS would like it due to experience, and...uh, BBT's signature is about how you shouldn't trust meta tells, they're too easy to manipulate.
(3:27:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: Which I don't think is true with big game-wide patterns, but is probably true with little one-off posts.
(3:27:37 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, to be fair, he apparently does think a page 1 l-1 vote is ok since he did it as town
(3:27:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well, yeah.
(3:28:07 PM) ArtherDent: Still
(3:31:01 PM) ArtherDent: Other note Wis's meta read of Xay matches what I noticed in that game mollie posted
(3:31:42 PM) ArtherDent: Xay is towb
(3:32:02 PM) CaffieneDeity: Good to know!
(3:32:36 PM) ArtherDent: And wis looks good, anthough he can fake that
(3:32:57 PM) ArtherDent: still leaning town there
(3:32:57 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh. There are things that bug me about Wisdom.
(3:33:14 PM) ArtherDent: Oh?
(3:35:38 PM) CaffieneDeity: Some of his quick townreads are weird, especially in contrast with how he hammered pirate mollie for it, and I think he literally said to her at some point something along the lines of "so I did some dumb things, DUMB THINGS ARE WHAT I DO." Which I realize as I'm spelling this out is basically saying that hypocrisy is a scumtell, so ugh.
(3:36:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: It does feel like he's held back a little bit after Klick and Wanderer both replaced out, which is sort of townish? But not a lot of time there.
(3:37:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: I remembered before the game I speculated on whether he was the sort of person who'd spam even harder as scum to demoralize people, which is apparently a thing now, because 2015. So the holding back as a town tell ties into that, if it's true.
(3:42:22 PM) ArtherDent: not_mafia just voted mollie
(3:42:29 PM) CaffieneDeity: ...
(3:47:53 PM) ArtherDent: Want to vote him?
(3:48:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: Go for it.
(3:56:19 PM) ArtherDent: And now Wisdom is trying to troll me
(3:58:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh.
(4:38:27 PM) ArtherDent: Also, now we have to win this game
(4:38:27 PM) CaffieneDeity <AUTO-REPLY>: I'm not here right now
(4:38:30 PM) ArtherDent: ;)
(4:57:38 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also I haven't posted in any NRG reviews since the game started. x_x
(4:57:45 PM) CaffieneDeity: I just caught up on avatars, at least.
(4:58:06 PM) ArtherDent: Ugh. This game is getting messy fast
(4:59:31 PM) ArtherDent: But, like McBeth said, we're already halfway through the river of blood
(4:59:31 PM) CaffieneDeity: I wonder if we can just get Wisdom's chatty ass lynched.
(4:59:37 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(4:59:49 PM) ArtherDent: He's really on my last nerve now
(5:00:26 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh. We're a hydra, we should be able to tag team things to keep our sanity, but this would work better if I had reads.
(5:00:42 PM) ArtherDent: Like you said, it's freaking weird that nobody in this game knows who we are
(5:01:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: To be fair, people who do know who you are tend to be even more paranoid of you!
(5:01:15 PM) ArtherDent: I almost just said "No, I don't think I'm better then you because of my join date, I think I'm better then you because I'm better then you" but toned it down a litt
(5:01:17 PM) ArtherDent: Well, yeah
(5:01:25 PM) ArtherDent: The fact that people aren't paranoid of me can be an advantage
(5:01:32 PM) ArtherDent: It's part of the reason I won that time travel mafia game so easily
(5:01:41 PM) ArtherDent: It's like "Well, this Yosarian guy seems active and logical, he must be town!"
(5:02:05 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway
(5:02:13 PM) ArtherDent: The game is a mess right now, but that's not necessarally a bad thing
(5:02:38 PM) ArtherDent: Right now there's basically this 4 way clusterfuck beteen me, Mollie, Wisdom, and Not_Mafia, and we're all in a really bad mood
(5:02:59 PM) ArtherDent: Which actually may increase the odds of figuring out both Wisdom and Not_Mafia
(5:03:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: Is Wisdom really in a bad mood?
(5:03:39 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, yeah
(5:03:39 PM) CaffieneDeity: He knows people hate this.
(5:04:24 PM) ArtherDent: He lashed out at me, and then kind of backed down and said "well I just get annoyed when people brag about their joi ndate"
(5:04:34 PM) ArtherDent: He's not in a good mood
(5:05:51 PM) ArtherDent: Although I have to admit, the fact that Wisdom first asked if not_mafia was scum, and then read him as town for the reason he did, makes Wisom sound town-ish to me
(5:06:10 PM) ArtherDent: I'm not buying his logic, but I see where he's coming from
(5:06:12 PM) ArtherDent: So, meh.
(5:06:20 PM) ArtherDent: Other stuff Wisdom is doing seem really dodgy though

[...]

(5:41:15 PM) CaffieneDeity: I haven't posted it yet, but I typed a post that was just begging Wisdom to leave the thread for 48 hours.
(5:49:42 PM) ArtherDent: heh
(5:49:48 PM) ArtherDent: I don't think that would help
(5:49:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh.
(5:49:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: I kind of want to post it anyway.
(5:50:09 PM) ArtherDent: Well, if you want to post something, post it
(5:50:18 PM) ArtherDent: You don't need to wait for my permission. :)
(5:50:35 PM) ArtherDent: I think it'll just piss him off more, but meh
(5:51:01 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think there's any way out of this situation that isn't meh.
(5:51:12 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(5:51:25 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, ten bucks says he's not going to do it
(5:51:30 PM) CaffieneDeity: Probably not.
(5:51:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: I want to believe what pirate mollie's believing.
(5:51:44 PM) ArtherDent: But other people will probably feel empathy towards you for making that post
(5:51:57 PM) ArtherDent: Which will probably help us
(5:53:20 PM) ArtherDent: I like that you told him to go cosplay as L
(5:53:35 PM) ArtherDent: That's probably the funniest thing anyone's said in this game as of yet
(5:57:23 PM) CaffieneDeity: I should get some questions or something ready...
(5:57:40 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think YGS is posting again today, since they're both Brits, but meh.
(5:58:57 PM) ArtherDent: Aww, you can't use the "display posts by" feature to display everyone but wisdom, lol
(5:59:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: Heh.
(6:00:32 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, I'm mostly interesting in seeing Not_Mafia's answer to my question
(6:00:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't even remember the question. x_x
(6:00:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: What was it?
(6:01:02 PM) ArtherDent:
Tell you what. Go back to the beginning and explain your Mollie read to me again, in a way that makes sense to me. Explain to me exactly why you think she's scum. I don't need everyone else in the game to agree with me, but I need to at least be able to understand where they're coming from.
(6:01:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think it'll just be retreading old ground, to be honest.
(6:03:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: He answered.
(6:07:05 PM) ArtherDent: Eh.
(6:07:06 PM) ArtherDent: Meh.
(6:07:30 PM) CaffieneDeity: Gosh. Someone's ISO was dominated by dealing with Wisdom?
(6:07:34 PM) ArtherDent: That answer sounded a little less terrible then his earlier explination
(6:07:36 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, I know
(6:08:20 PM) ArtherDent: Now I'm wondering if I should have just stayed on TD
(6:08:40 PM) ArtherDent: Neah. This was a worthwhile excursion, even if I go back to TD later
(6:09:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: "You Got Schooled has asked for a replacement."
(6:09:47 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(6:10:05 PM) ArtherDent: Well, hell with it, we get enough people in these slots we should be able to read them all eventually
(6:10:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: Bluh.
(6:10:19 PM) ArtherDent: Heh
(6:10:29 PM) ArtherDent: Never played with JeanDarc
(6:10:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: Some newb, pretty sure.
(6:12:12 PM) ArtherDent: Yup
(6:12:15 PM) ArtherDent: 1 completed newbie game
(6:12:24 PM) ArtherDent: 2 ongoing games
(6:12:25 PM) ArtherDent: That's it
(6:13:29 PM) ArtherDent: Wow, newbie games have gotten weird
(6:13:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: Apparently the balance is better now?
(6:13:54 PM) CaffieneDeity: Dunno. One of these days I should try playing one.
(6:13:57 PM) ArtherDent: There's a bulletproof, a jailkeeper, and a mafia roleblocekr in this one
(6:14:02 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yup.
(6:14:07 PM) CaffieneDeity: Matrix6.

[...]

(6:16:31 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(6:23:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: Do you mind if I vote Wisdom? Not necessarily immediately, but I am strongly considering it.
(6:23:42 PM) ArtherDent: Mmm
(6:24:11 PM) ArtherDent: He wouldn't be my first choice ,but he's done some werid stuff
(6:24:20 PM) ArtherDent: He could be scum
(6:24:34 PM) ArtherDent: And, hey, he's probably not a Chosen
(6:24:52 PM) CaffieneDeity: Hmm.
(6:25:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also, you altslipped.
(6:25:31 PM) ArtherDent: Opps.
(6:25:43 PM) ArtherDent: I was actually thinking about going back and fourth with not_mafia a few more times and then maybe moving my vote back to TD or something
(6:26:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: Three people have replaced out in under 72 hours.
(6:26:32 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, well
(6:26:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm kind of thinking that what you said about looking at the results of a person's play maybe hold true here.
(6:26:44 PM) ArtherDent: Whenever you have an unexpectedly fast-moving game that hapens
(6:26:46 PM) ArtherDent: Mmm
(6:27:00 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(6:27:17 PM) ArtherDent: So you think Wisdom posting a lot is hurting the town, and thus is anti-town play?
(6:28:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: I know it. There are threads and threads complaining about it. I speculated before the game that it might be something he intentionally plays up as scum, and I don't know if that's true, but I absolutely know that this is a thing that people do.
(6:28:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: 2015 is a crazy place.
(6:29:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: This isn't an accusation mollie's just making up on the spot, at least.
(6:30:09 PM) CaffieneDeity: That doesn't mean that he couldn't possibly do this as town, but...
(6:30:19 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(6:30:32 PM) ArtherDent: He does seem to post a metric ton as town as well
(6:30:44 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, I wouldn't vote mastin or ABR jut for posting a lot
(6:30:58 PM) ArtherDent: Well, ok, Mastin I have
(6:31:01 PM) ArtherDent: But she's worse
(6:37:05 PM) ArtherDent: Damnit
(6:37:09 PM) ArtherDent: Not_mafia's making sense
(6:37:14 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, I don't agree with him
(6:37:17 PM) ArtherDent: But he's making sense
(6:38:09 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean...yeah, I was worried about pirate mollie too, it was just weird that he got that from 4 pages.
(6:38:20 PM) ArtherDent: For all I know, "making sense" might be a scumtell coming from him, Lord knows he never did it in Time Travel mafia
(6:38:52 PM) ArtherDent: But he seems to have a well thought out, logical, and consistant argument here, and he's not switiching it up or backing down under pressure
(6:39:53 PM) ArtherDent: I might move my vote back to TD, unless you want to take a shot at Wisdom
(6:40:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: I kind of do?
(6:40:09 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh.
(6:40:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't want to actually get into a fight with him, and there are two replacements who are still reading now.
(6:40:26 PM) ArtherDent: If you want to, go for it, it should at least generate some interesting information. Just be prepared for wall-of-text wars like gangbusters
(6:51:57 PM) CaffieneDeity: Anyway, feel free to soften up on Not_Mafia.
(7:02:03 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(7:04:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: With that said, his reads on people who aren't pirate mollie are probably what I should be trying to get.
(7:04:28 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(7:04:31 PM) CaffieneDeity: Hmm.
(7:04:31 PM) ArtherDent: I just unvoted him
(7:04:32 PM) ArtherDent: Sorry
(7:04:45 PM) ArtherDent: Actually, technically I didn't
(7:04:46 PM) ArtherDent: Damnit
(7:04:47 PM) CaffieneDeity: Altslipped.
(7:04:48 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(7:06:11 PM) ArtherDent: I'm not good at this
(7:07:24 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, I have my vote parked on TD right now, but if you want to launch an attack on Wisdom, please feel free
(7:07:42 PM) ArtherDent: First day of work is tommorow. It's only for part of the day, but I'm not going to be around quite as much from now on
(7:08:08 PM) ArtherDent: In a normal game, being away for like 6 hours wouldn't matter, but...
(7:16:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeeeeeeeeeah.
(7:17:27 PM) ArtherDent: I think I'm just going to ignore her
(7:17:39 PM) ArtherDent: I think she's town, and I'm not going to let her try and bully me into sheeping on her
(7:17:56 PM) ArtherDent: She already flipped the fuck out on us before for not voting Not_Mafia
(7:18:57 PM) ArtherDent: And I'd rather let her and not_mafia slug it out then get in the way of that
(7:20:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh. We should probably have her with us.
(7:21:04 PM) ArtherDent: Eh\
(7:21:08 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, we should
(7:21:10 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't know if Not_Mafia is scum or town, but I think his reads on pirate mollie are a lot more interesting than having him fighting her.
(7:21:22 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(7:21:48 PM) ArtherDent: In a not_mafia v mollie fight, though, I don't want to accidnetly end up looking like I'm on not_mafia 's side, though
(7:22:21 PM) CaffieneDeity: Anyway, I still don't think Not_Mafia's statements are true about what was going on 4 pages into the game.
(7:22:31 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(7:22:43 PM) ArtherDent: If you want to question not_mafia, feel free
(7:22:57 PM) ArtherDent: We only have one vote, but we do have two voices, and we can probe in differnet directions
(7:23:15 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, I'm going outside for a bit, be back later
(7:33:54 PM) CaffieneDeity: "(7:21:10 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't know if Not_Mafia is scum or town, but I think his reads on pirate mollie are a lot more interesting than having him fighting her." Also I realize I typed this wrong now.
(7:42:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: Potential scum-on-Chosen tell: both pre- and post-replacement voting the same player. (Which Wanderer/Not_Mafia is guilty of.)
(7:42:26 PM) ArtherDent: Huh
(7:42:50 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, that's a good point
(7:43:22 PM) CaffieneDeity: I sort of want to good cop Not_Mafia and see if I can talk him down, but I think mollie will freak out.
(7:43:34 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(7:43:48 PM) ArtherDent: We don't really want
(7:43:54 PM) ArtherDent: to talk him down, anyway
(7:44:06 PM) CaffieneDeity: Like I said, I want to see if I CAN talk him down.
(7:44:11 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm curious if it's possible.
(7:44:11 PM) ArtherDent: Him and Mollie are tunneling on each other, and that probably just has to happen
(7:44:12 PM) ArtherDent: Hmm
(7:44:15 PM) ArtherDent: Interesting
(7:44:51 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, if you really convince him he can't lynch Mollie and your theory is right, he might just switch over to the other Chosen anyway, and we'd never know
(7:45:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: I doubt I can convince him he CAN'T lynch mollie, I'm only one person.
(7:45:27 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'd be trying to convince him that mollie is town, obviously.
(7:45:43 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(7:45:52 PM) ArtherDent: Well, if you want to try to do that, go for it
(7:46:04 PM) ArtherDent: If you're arguing that mollie is town, mollie shouldn't freak
(7:47:21 PM) ArtherDent: I have to say that I'm a little wierded out by Mollie's recent posting
(7:47:31 PM) ArtherDent: It's making me a liiittle less confident about her
(7:47:34 PM) ArtherDent: Onlty a hair
(7:47:41 PM) ArtherDent: But it's icky
(7:47:54 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh.
(7:48:22 PM) ArtherDent: It's like "Hey, you're my pet townie, now you have to vote where I tell you to vote!"
(7:48:40 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah. It's annoying.
(7:48:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: And even more annoyingly, I AM incredibly easily-influenced by pretty much everyone in this game.
(7:49:12 PM) ArtherDent: It's also what I would expect if she really was scum and she really did unvote us just to befirend us
(7:49:20 PM) ArtherDent: Although maybe she wouldn't be this pushy?
(7:49:23 PM) ArtherDent: Probably?
(7:49:30 PM) CaffieneDeity: I still think she's town.
(7:49:32 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(7:49:34 PM) ArtherDent: I know
(7:49:35 PM) ArtherDent: I do to
(7:50:45 PM) ArtherDent: I think mollie just called you a "coward" for asking wis to pot less
(7:50:53 PM) ArtherDent: *post less
(7:51:05 PM) ArtherDent: I don't know wtf is going on in this game, lol
(7:51:26 PM) ArtherDent: But this is fine, actually
(7:51:39 PM) ArtherDent: Let mollie unleash her anger on not_mafia and go to the dark side.
(7:52:03 PM) CaffieneDeity: Bluh.
(7:52:06 PM) ArtherDent: It'll help us read him, and at least the mollie gun is pointed and firing in a pretty reasonable direction
(7:52:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: We do NOT need people madder.
(7:52:26 PM) ArtherDent: Meh
(7:53:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: The pro-town thing to do is to calm everyone's crazy nerves, which is annoying, because I'm not perfectly calm myself.
(7:53:13 PM) ArtherDent: Not "madder", exactally. But how he handles this might help us figure out if your theory is correct
(7:53:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: No, it won't. It'll just get them into a 1v1.
(7:53:33 PM) ArtherDent: Really? Why is calming people down pro-town?
(7:53:46 PM) ArtherDent: When people go completly nucking futs then it's often easier to read them
(7:53:49 PM) CaffieneDeity: Because all of us are out of our minds and people keep replacing out and mollie is also tempted to.
(7:53:51 PM) ArtherDent: And they calm down eventually
(7:53:54 PM) ArtherDent: Well, sure
(7:53:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh.
(7:54:00 PM) ArtherDent: We don't want mollie to replace out
(7:55:11 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, I'll try to talk to mollie
(7:55:15 PM) ArtherDent: You start grilling not-mafia
(7:56:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm not sure if having us double-teaming them is the best way to go about it. But I'm still staring at this blank window.
(7:56:28 PM) ArtherDent: Eh, just start asking questions
(7:56:36 PM) ArtherDent: Don't worry about wording things perfeclty
(7:57:08 PM) ArtherDent: Once you start doing something and taking action, then you get a pattern going and it's easier to keep being active
(7:57:23 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(7:57:33 PM) ArtherDent: And like I said, you're probably going to have to be the more active head of this hydra for the next few days
(7:58:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, this is something I need to have down.
(8:04:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: Um...why did we unvote Not_Mafia, again?
(8:04:51 PM) ArtherDent: I thought his explination for his vote made some sense, and he seemed to believe it, and it moved him to a point where he was slighly less scummy then TD
(8:05:07 PM) ArtherDent: And you told me that it was OK to "soften up" on him after that
(8:05:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: I know I did. x_x
(8:05:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: EASILY INFLUENCED.
(8:05:22 PM) ArtherDent: :)
(8:05:49 PM) ArtherDent: Don't worry about it. I attacked him, questioned him, and then back off; you feel free to do the same
(8:06:17 PM) ArtherDent: My TD vote is basically just a placeholder at this point, because I think it's better then not voting, but if you want to pull out the vote and hit not_mafia with it again, feel free
(8:06:47 PM) CaffieneDeity: No, right now I'm trying to be conciliatory.
(8:06:50 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(8:06:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: Like, "I get why Yosarian backed off, but I don't get why" blah blah blah.
(8:07:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: Except I'm not sure I do get it entirely.
(8:07:10 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(8:08:10 PM) ArtherDent: I backed off because it sounded like his read on mollie was based on things that actually happened in this game, and I think the way that he stuck to it both after Wisdom told him he no longer thought that and then I attacked him was a town tell
(8:08:19 PM) ArtherDent: ...of course, that was before you came up with the Chosen theory
(8:08:51 PM) CaffieneDeity: I do still think it's dangerous to speculate on chosen before a chosen or scum flip, for what it's worth.
(8:08:57 PM) ArtherDent: Like, it didn't sound like his read was just totally something he pulled out of his ass
(8:08:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: But it's absolutely something to keep in mind.
(8:09:02 PM) ArtherDent: Sure
(8:09:12 PM) ArtherDent: I'm not town-reading him
(8:09:31 PM) ArtherDent: But that moved him from "scummy" up to "kind of scummy", something like that
(8:09:59 PM) ArtherDent: Really, the reason I voted him was because his mollie read sounded like total gibberish
(8:10:57 PM) ArtherDent: I don't like the post he just made, though
(8:11:25 PM) ArtherDent: If he really thinks mollie is scum, he should be trying to engage with her, not dodging questions (
(8:14:14 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, going away from comp for a bit. Have fun
(8:14:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: When will you be back?

(3:36:28 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, if you want to go after not_mafia, feel free. He's still pretty likely to be scum
(3:36:40 PM) ArtherDent: And if you've got a scum read on it, go with it
(3:36:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(3:36:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: Anyway, TD's chainsaw defense is...honestly, it's just weird.
(3:37:06 PM) ArtherDent: Also I liked TD's last couple of posts a little more then his earlier stuff
(3:37:09 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(3:37:15 PM) CaffieneDeity: Heh.
(3:37:22 PM) ArtherDent: It could be a chainsaw defense
(3:37:47 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah. I'm not inclined to attack him for it before N_M even flips scum.
(3:37:48 PM) ArtherDent: He could be right, though. I got a little nervous with the way Crazy followed me
(3:38:03 PM) ArtherDent: Doesn't mean Not_Mafia is, well, not mafia
(3:38:12 PM) ArtherDent: It could have just as easily been a good time to bus
(3:38:31 PM) ArtherDent: But Crazy's post there felt a little iffy
(3:38:43 PM) CaffieneDeity: If I am right about mollie being chosen, and can convince everyone, then that gives us a very high chance of winning the game outright.
(3:38:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: In the first four games where there was only one chosen, scum never even managed to lynch it.
(3:40:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: It does still feel a bit crass to drop the C-bomb before anyone's even flipped, buuuuuut.
(3:42:20 PM) ArtherDent: Mmm
(3:43:06 PM) ArtherDent: Well, just in case we do get nightkilled, we can drop in a line before the end of the day "If Not Mafia flips scum,. then Mollie is probably one of the two Chosen"
(3:43:49 PM) ArtherDent: Or if you want to bring up the theory before that as part of a case against Not_Mafia, feel free
(3:44:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: The chosen thing was the spark that pushed me from "N_M's attack is kind of weird" to "N_M is scum and he needs to die."
(3:44:28 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, I get that
(3:44:40 PM) ArtherDent: If NM is scum, then Mollie probably is Chosen
(3:45:41 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, there's no harm in Chosen speculation in this game, so feel free if you want
(3:46:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: I do think the speculation is more useful the later it first comes up, I admit.
(3:46:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: At this juncture, it IS a risk.
(3:46:20 PM) ArtherDent: Mmm
(3:47:23 PM) ArtherDent: Well, either way. We can probably get him lynched without it.
(3:47:40 PM) CaffieneDeity: We can try!
(3:47:44 PM) ArtherDent: You could do it in sort of an indirect way, if you wanted
(3:48:04 PM) ArtherDent: WIsdom made a post a while back where he said that if NM is scum he probably wouldn't be going after Mollie like this
(3:48:18 PM) ArtherDent: Especally after Wis says he doesn't think Mollie is scum
(3:48:31 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm just frustrated that N_M signed out before I could try to talk him down last night.
(3:48:44 PM) ArtherDent: You could just respond to that with a "You know, there actually is one scenerio where it would make sence for scum NM to go after Mollie this hard..."
(3:48:47 PM) CaffieneDeity: If I make a case without the chosen thing, then it'll just be the same case others have made.
(3:48:52 PM) ArtherDent: And leave it dangling
(3:53:52 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, play it however you want, just if you're going to make a move on NM don't wait too long, this town has the attention span of a stoned gnat
(3:54:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: Heh.
(3:54:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: We've barely made any pages at all today!
(3:54:18 PM) ArtherDent: Heh
(3:54:37 PM) ArtherDent: People are focused on NM right now. Another day or so, they might not be
(3:55:23 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah...
(3:57:13 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, I should focus on stuff for work for a while. Have fun. :)
(3:57:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: All right.
(8:39:27 PM) CaffieneDeity: So...I'm confirmation-biased as hell, but I think N_M's one-liners really are something he does more as town.
(8:39:38 PM) ArtherDent: Could bew
(8:39:39 PM) CaffieneDeity: Only checked one scum game with my shitty ISO metas, though.
(9:50:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: Bah. Wisdom's asleep at this hour. I wish the thread didn't seem to die every time he sleeps.
(9:50:48 PM) ArtherDent: Mmm
(9:51:08 PM) ArtherDent: You know, if it does turn out that you're right and Mollie is Chosen, that actaully makes Wisdom look bad
(9:51:30 PM) ArtherDent: Although we shouldn't pile assumption on top of assumption here
(9:52:26 PM) CaffieneDeity: It could. Mollie did accuse him of intentionally sniping her early when he knew it'd throw her off her game, but Mollie's said a lot of things.
(9:52:46 PM) ArtherDent: Yeaah

[...]

(10:54:35 PM) CaffieneDeity: Looks like Wickedestjr isn't gonna be a problem for us, at least.
(11:06:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: I should probably try harder to actually read Xayzeck.

(10:24:58 AM) CaffieneDeity: JeanDarc's first post in the completed newbie game he replaced into:
(10:25:19 AM) CaffieneDeity: "I will have a chance to fully re-read this at a later time - but expect more posts from me within the next day.
First of all, I will look at why my slot voted BlueBlood

See you folks in a bit."
(10:25:43 AM) CaffieneDeity: But that time he was at -1.
(2:00:34 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(2:02:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: Bluh. I wish Mollie would stop that.
(2:02:21 PM) ArtherDent: Mmm?
(2:03:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: Getting mad at every single post that implies she was ever questionable, or ever overreacting.
(2:03:47 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(2:05:22 PM) CaffieneDeity: So I do think JeanDarc is off, but I also want to let him finish.
(2:05:29 PM) ArtherDent: ok
(2:08:07 PM) CaffieneDeity: The number of replacements and catchups are stopping me from harping on Not_Mafia the way I really want to, buuuuut it's kind of boring.
(2:09:22 PM) ArtherDent: If you think NM is the way to go, then feel free to keep harping on it
(2:09:30 PM) ArtherDent: Nobody else seems to have any idea what to do
(2:09:52 PM) CaffieneDeity: No, nearly everyone is suspicious of N_M already.
(2:09:53 PM) ArtherDent: So if you just sound confident and determined, and use a lot of repitition, everyone'll probably follow you just for the lack of any better ideas
(2:09:56 PM) ArtherDent: That too
(2:10:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm not worried about it, if anything it'd be too easy. In an "it's more fun to lynch someone controversial" sense, not in a "maybe he's town after all" sense.
(2:11:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: I just want to get people's thoughts on the record first!
(2:11:54 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, fair enough
(5:27:02 PM) CaffieneDeity: JeanDarc has failed to answer me twice.
(5:27:07 PM) CaffieneDeity: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p7157540
(5:27:09 PM) ArtherDent: mmm
(5:27:21 PM) CaffieneDeity: Is there some obvious context to that line that I'm just totally not getting?
(5:28:44 PM) ArtherDent: I'm not sure what he means either
(5:29:39 PM) ArtherDent: I guess he's saying that Wisdom is trying to both justify his vote and justify a super-strong town-read on Mollie?
(5:30:15 PM) CaffieneDeity: I guess.
(5:31:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: JeanDarc's wording seems to imply that the townread is unreasonable, or has been taken too far. Which obviously sets me on edge, considering.
(5:31:39 PM) ArtherDent: I think he's talking about Wisdom's townread on Mollie
(5:31:49 PM) CaffieneDeity: Right.

(3:40:07 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wow, that was a weird hammer.
(3:40:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: A good outcome! But a weird hammer.
(3:40:24 PM) ArtherDent: The important thing is that Ether's gut is still awesome.
(3:40:39 PM) ArtherDent: :)
(3:40:54 PM) ArtherDent: 's funny, I think we both ended up with Not Mafia near the top of our scum lists for totally different reasons
(3:41:21 PM) CaffieneDeity: The great thing about Chosen is that it doesn't balance itself through power roles, it balances itself through forcing the scum to act even more differently from town than they normally would.
(3:41:30 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(3:42:43 PM) CaffieneDeity: Assuming mollie's Chosen, which I am, I think we've got this.
(3:42:49 PM) ArtherDent: I basically just said "Ok, I have at least some reason to have some reason that everyone in the game is town except NM and TD, let's lynch one of them"
(3:43:07 PM) ArtherDent: And you actually came up with all kinds of motivation for your play and did things the right way
(3:43:08 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(3:43:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: Do you still think Tiphaine is the other scum?
(3:43:21 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(3:43:24 PM) ArtherDent: Not really?
(3:43:29 PM) ArtherDent: Although he does look a little worse
(3:43:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah...I'm not really sure how I feel.
(3:43:47 PM) ArtherDent: I was going to say that TD and Wis both look pretty dodgy here
(3:43:55 PM) CaffieneDeity: Actually, I think Wisdom is town now.
(3:44:21 PM) CaffieneDeity: Gonna reread to doublecheck that, but I think he did enough to disrupt the mollie wagon after starting it that I'm inclined to trust him.
(3:44:21 PM) ArtherDent: If Molie is chose, then Wisdom attacking and voting her early, then doing a 180 and calling her super town a little later, looks really bad to me
(3:44:29 PM) ArtherDent: Heh
(3:44:31 PM) ArtherDent: Interesting
(3:44:35 PM) CaffieneDeity: Why does the 180 bother you?
(3:44:39 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(3:45:03 PM) ArtherDent: If a Chosen does die, a scum would love to get it down on paper that he defended them at one point
(3:45:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: And Wicked's hammer really bugs me a lot. It's not that I think that cutting the day in half was bad, it's that I'm not convinced that it was remotely in-character for him to do.
(3:45:25 PM) CaffieneDeity: Maybe, but...he kept doing it.
(3:45:25 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(3:45:30 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(3:45:58 PM) ArtherDent: IMHO, what I would do if scum is try to figure out which of the chosen I actually could get lynched, and then try to buddy up to the other one
(3:46:07 PM) CaffieneDeity: Maybe.
(3:46:12 PM) ArtherDent: And then after I lynched the one, I could NK the other later, and it would make me look really good
(3:46:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: That also raises questions about who N_M decided that mollie was a more viable lynch than.
(3:46:39 PM) ArtherDent: (shrug) At least, that's one tactic I might use, depending on details
(3:46:43 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(3:46:50 PM) ArtherDent: NM might not be..all that strategic
(3:47:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well, no, but like...
(3:47:55 PM) CaffieneDeity: There was a votecount placed right before he replaced in. Klick/JeanDarc had two votes (Crazy and Wisdom), and some other players had 1. Mollie's only vote was from N_M's predecessor, Wanderer-nl.
(3:48:23 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think that makes it fairly unlikely that JeanDarc is the other Chosen.
(3:49:30 PM) CaffieneDeity: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p7152250
(3:50:05 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(3:50:17 PM) ArtherDent: Also, thinking about it, Wis probably isn't scummy
(3:50:36 PM) ArtherDent: That whole interaction he had with NM right after NM repalced in would be super-weird if they were scum together
(3:51:11 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't know about that bit. But at the moment Wisdom is probably my second strongest town read behind Mollie, though I want to reread.
(3:51:47 PM) ArtherDent: Eh. NM replaced in, started attacking Mollie. Wis told NM he didn't believe the mollie case anymore, NM voted mollie anyway, then Wis called NM townie for not listening to him
(3:52:08 PM) ArtherDent: That would just be a bizzare, bizzare series of posts to make in thread if they were scum together
(3:52:21 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also I just clicked the hilarious moment in his sig, and it's amazing.
(3:53:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: Actually, yeah, N_M voting anyway immediately after that would be a little weird for scum.
(3:53:19 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(3:53:26 PM) ArtherDent: The whole thing would be weird
(3:53:55 PM) ArtherDent: Wis probably wouldn't coach a scumbuddy that blatently in thread, NM probably wouldn't ignore him if he did, and Wis probably wouldn't attack his scumbuddy and then call his scumbuddy town for ignoring him
(3:54:24 PM) ArtherDent: Also, wow
(3:54:36 PM) ArtherDent: That sig is hillarious, lol
(3:54:46 PM) ArtherDent: 3 mafia members died that night?
(3:54:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: No. Three mafia members were lynched that day.
(3:55:03 PM) ArtherDent: Uh
(3:55:06 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(3:55:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p7024866
(3:55:54 PM) ArtherDent: Wow
(4:04:14 PM) ArtherDent: That's great
(4:04:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: Kinda disappointed I didn't get to go into a berserker rage over N_M, I gotta admit. But eh, we have lynched a scum and we have done our duty.
(4:04:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: It is.
(4:04:23 PM) ArtherDent: I like that marshal role
(4:04:30 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, we did good
(4:04:39 PM) ArtherDent: Between the two of us, I think we're the main reason NM got lynched
(4:05:04 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, no sense obsessing too much about trying to read the game now. 50/50 odds we get killed tonight
(4:05:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think we totally helped. And I wouldn't be surprised if calling mollie as Chosen was what clicked any bad gut feelings into focus for everyone else, since that's what it did for me.
(4:05:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm just complaining because berserker rages are fun.
(4:07:02 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(4:07:08 PM) ArtherDent: We really might be the other chosen, actually
(4:07:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: I...don't think so?
(4:07:28 PM) ArtherDent: In retrospect, Wanderer's "intent to hammer" post might be meaningful
(4:08:32 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think the whole playerlist's complete lack of interest in us after we survived is meaningful.
(4:08:40 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(4:08:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: Anyway, if we're chosen and pirate mollie's the other chosen, wow, the scum are so fucked.
(4:09:02 PM) ArtherDent: Oh yeah
(4:09:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: No way in hell that either of us is getting lynched.
(4:09:08 PM) ArtherDent: (nods)
(4:09:40 PM) ArtherDent: I just don't know why else a scum would say "intent to hammer" in that situation, unless he was seriously considering hammering but wanted a little "cover" in order to do so
(4:09:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also, I think Wanderer's intent to hammer would have never actually helped her if she really had hammered. If anything, it'd have just made people more likely to unvote us to stop her.
(4:09:53 PM) ArtherDent: Yeaahhh
(4:09:55 PM) ArtherDent: maybe
(4:10:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think she wanted it counted as a town tell, which it was.
(4:10:16 PM) CaffieneDeity: And she explicitly said that she knew YGS at least would townread her for it.
(4:10:16 PM) ArtherDent: I didn't count it as a town tell, but Wisdom did
(4:10:19 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(4:10:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: I did.
(4:10:35 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wasn't enough to save her, but it was enough to let her coast.
(4:10:40 PM) ArtherDent: I never call stuff like that a town-tell, on general principle, although I thought was pretty null
(4:10:40 PM) CaffieneDeity: For a while.
(4:10:49 PM) ArtherDent: Sure
(4:10:56 PM) ArtherDent: Gutsy move, if the goal was just to look town
(4:11:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: Maybe. In an era where putting people at -1 on Page 1 is expected, I think there's been some inflation on what counts as gutsy.
(4:13:40 PM) ArtherDent: Heh

[...]

(5:15:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: By the way, we actually didn't pinpoint Wisdom as a veto pregame, I don't think. I threw out four people and didn't think about it further until Wicked asked.
(5:15:26 PM) CaffieneDeity: Not that it matters.
(5:15:33 PM) ArtherDent: Hmmm
(5:15:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: If this winds up being a thing that matters, I'm gonna be pissed. That argument was annoying.
(5:15:53 PM) ArtherDent: I think I mentioned wis early on
(5:16:06 PM) ArtherDent: It's not a thing that matters
(5:16:22 PM) CaffieneDeity: It's not a thing that ACTUALLY matters, but it is a thing mollie gave us shit about.
(5:16:27 PM) ArtherDent: Except I think Mollie's pissed that you'd veto wisdom over here
(5:16:35 PM) CaffieneDeity: Ugh.
(5:16:39 PM) ArtherDent: Because she's insecure and proud at the sane time
(5:16:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: At least the 2008ers both know their place.
(5:16:55 PM) ArtherDent: hehe
(5:17:19 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, that's my theory
(5:17:22 PM) CaffieneDeity: Could be!
(5:17:35 PM) ArtherDent: She thinks it's weird you didn't say her
(5:20:06 PM) CaffieneDeity: We should probably learn more about how Tiphaine deals with his partners.
(5:20:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: Which is harder to ISO, so by "we" I really mean "you." Sorry.
(5:20:34 PM) ArtherDent: Eh. Let's not spend too much time analyzing stuff tonight
(5:20:46 PM) ArtherDent: Like I said, there's a high chance we're the nightkill
(5:20:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, probably.
(5:21:04 PM) ArtherDent: Basically everyone called us town
(5:21:11 PM) ArtherDent: So unless we're chosen
(5:21:20 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, granted, Wanderer probably had no idea who we are
(5:21:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: It could be Wisdom or Wicked! Maybe.
(5:21:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: I still think Wicked's hammer was shady.
(5:21:39 PM) ArtherDent: Meh
(5:21:44 PM) ArtherDent: I was kind of expecting someone to hammer
(5:21:52 PM) CaffieneDeity: Someone, sure. Wicked, no.
(5:21:59 PM) ArtherDent: Mmmm
(5:22:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: This is almost entirely a bad reaction to how his actions stand up to my model of him.
(5:23:46 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(5:23:55 PM) ArtherDent: Out of character for him, you think
(5:23:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(5:24:06 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(5:26:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: Like, I was actually contemplating unvoting, SOLELY to be polite to him, no other reason, and then boom.
(5:27:31 PM) ArtherDent: I'm glad you didn't
(5:27:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(5:27:42 PM) ArtherDent: It was time for NM to die
(5:27:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: No regrets about N_M being dead.
(5:27:48 PM) ArtherDent: He wasn't even trying to defend himself
(5:27:52 PM) CaffieneDeity: Nope.
(5:28:11 PM) ArtherDent: And if we got off that wagon, whole thing might have derailed. Also we would have looked really bad
(5:28:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: I never look bad.

[...]

(5:29:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: He froze up almost immediately. Even the mollie attacks after a point were less an attempt to get her lynched and more an attempt to convince the town that he actually believed his bullshit and not say anything revealing about anyone else, I think.
(5:29:23 PM) CaffieneDeity: (Back on N_M.)
(5:29:28 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah

[...]

(11:38:47 PM) CaffieneDeity: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p7149472
(11:39:01 PM) CaffieneDeity: From what you've read of Crazy, do you think this is enough to clear him as town?
(9:23:57 AM) ArtherDent: Well, that's probably a town-tell if Mollie is Chosen
(9:23:57 AM) CaffieneDeity <AUTO-REPLY>: I'm not here right now
(10:47:31 AM) CaffieneDeity: His ISO in general is pretty pro-town knowing what we know.
(10:47:49 AM) ArtherDent: Mmm
(10:48:47 AM) CaffieneDeity: Don't know if that's enough, depends on the player, I like him unambiguously townreading mollie early more than his early stance on Wanderer for that reason.
(10:49:06 AM) ArtherDent: Ok
(10:49:19 AM) ArtherDent: Yeah, overall he's looking pretty good so far

[Wickedestjr]

Even though I gave you the avatar, I think it

still

lulled me into going easier on you. x_x

Haha awesome. I bet the avatar's the sole reason I didn't get lynched D2. I'll keep it for now...

Thanks again

[Ether]

Knowing that you were in Empire's good books also influenced me to want to work with you. Anyone who Empire doesn't view as a harbinger of the end times has to be--

Okay, well,

aside from Fate

it is a high prestigious bar and I keep it in mind.

[Wisdom]

I enjoyed reading that log

[Wickedestjr]

Knowing that you were in Empire's good books also influenced me to want to work with you. Anyone who Empire doesn't view as a harbinger of the end times has to be--

Okay, well,

aside from Fate

it is a high prestigious bar and I keep it in mind.

Good to hear, I like Empire.

For what it's worth, 'EtherDent' was a big reason I chose to replace into this game in the first place. That turned out to be a good reason, even though I lost.

[Wickedestjr]

I enjoyed reading that log

[pirate mollie]

I enjoyed reading that log

[Ether]

And the rest:

Spoiler: Day 2 Logs

(12:23:11 PM) CaffieneDeity: ...Uh.
(12:23:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well.
(12:23:29 PM) CaffieneDeity: I officially have no idea what's going on.
(2:35:24 PM) ArtherDent: Well
(2:35:30 PM) ArtherDent: This really increases the chance that we're chosen
(2:35:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well, if we are, sucks for scum.
(2:35:49 PM) CaffieneDeity: There is no way in hell that we're getting lynched.
(2:37:29 PM) ArtherDent: (nods)
(2:37:36 PM) ArtherDent: Of course, there's still another Chosen around
(2:39:26 PM) ArtherDent: I just posted that thing I told you last night for why Wis is probably town
(2:39:40 PM) ArtherDent: Granted it's a little weaker since Mollie isn't chosen, but not much weaker
(2:39:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh. I'm not sure what I do and don't believe about Wisdom at the moment.
(2:40:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: His attack on Crazy is really, really weird.
(2:43:43 PM) CaffieneDeity: We should probably have an opinion on Tiphaine.
(2:44:29 PM) CaffieneDeity: Honestly I have no idea who's chosen at the moment.
(3:08:41 PM) ArtherDent: Mmm

[aloe is disgusting]

(6:21:23 PM) CaffieneDeity: I am really tempted to just vote Wicked.
(6:30:46 PM) ArtherDent: If you have a gut read, go for it. Maybe you'll get some interesting reactions, and there's basically no risk to just 1 vote on someone
(6:31:31 PM) CaffieneDeity: Mm...
(6:32:17 PM) ArtherDent: If I was right about YGS being scum on page 1, that would be awesome
(6:33:41 PM) ArtherDent: Overall, I kind of like Wicked's posts. Worth noting he did call NM "neutral" in his list, which might be a minor scumtell
(6:34:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah. It's the progression to speedhammering that bothers me.
(6:34:20 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, going from calling NM neutral to jumping right to the hammer when there's no time limit is a little weird, especally if that's out of character for him
(6:34:29 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, if ABR did that I wouldn't blink
(6:35:22 PM) ArtherDent: But yeah, that could be read as being scum with NM, and wanting to make sure he got his vote on the wagon
(6:36:09 PM) ArtherDent: And we still have town reads on, let's see; Xay, Crazy, and maybe Wisdom, right?
(6:36:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think he's better than just wanting a place on the wagon in general, I'm pretty sure he knows that that's not how getting credit works.
(6:36:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm...not sure how I feel about Wisdom.
(6:36:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wisdom's attack on Crazy is so bad.
(6:36:31 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(6:36:38 PM) CaffieneDeity: But we'll see.
(6:36:39 PM) ArtherDent: Let's let that play out
(6:36:59 PM) ArtherDent: If the two of them want to slug it out for a while, then we'll probably get a better idea of where Wisdom stands
(6:38:22 PM) ArtherDent: Wisdom has been going after Crazy for most of the game
(6:38:32 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeeeeeeees.
(6:38:32 PM) ArtherDent: He's made many, many posts attacking him
(6:38:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: He certainly has.
(6:38:49 PM) ArtherDent: So, yeah; could be a legitimate suspicious he's had all game, could be an attempt to lynch a chosen
(6:39:17 PM) ArtherDent: Let me see what NM/Wanderer said about Crazy
(6:40:09 PM) ArtherDent: NM said mildly negitive things about Crazy several times
(6:40:17 PM) ArtherDent: Never quite went into a full attack on him
(6:40:31 PM) ArtherDent: But several negitive comments, no positive ones
(6:40:54 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(6:41:02 PM) ArtherDent: Wanderer never did
(6:41:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: Really killing pirate mollie just doesn't make any sense for Crazy.
(6:41:18 PM) ArtherDent: So, (shrug)
(6:41:21 PM) ArtherDent: Mmmm
(6:41:52 PM) ArtherDent: Well, basically everyone was calling her super-townie by the end of the day
(6:42:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: It would have been huge for him as scum for the town to believe she was Chosen, and there's no way he wouldn't have figured that out. And she thought he was town.
(6:42:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: (Granted, pirate mollie is fickle. But still.)
(6:44:39 PM) ArtherDent: My gut is that Wisdom and Crazy are just two townies tunneling each other. BUt I could be wrong about Wisdom
(6:46:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: Anyway, I hate 1v1s, people trying to convince each other that they're scum don't really do much for me. I'd rather put myself in the middle.
(6:54:08 PM) ArtherDent: So...you don't want to go after Wanderer now?
(6:54:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: What?
(6:54:43 PM) ArtherDent: Erm
(6:54:45 PM) ArtherDent: I meant wicked
(6:54:47 PM) ArtherDent: Sorry
(6:55:23 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm not sure.
(6:56:34 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, if you really want to pick a fight with Wisdom right now instead, we can do that, I've had weird vibes abotu him all gmae
(6:56:49 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm not picking a fight with Wisdom just yet.
(6:56:51 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(6:57:01 PM) ArtherDent: Then you should vote Wicked and see what happens
(6:57:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: What do you think of Tiphaine right now?
(6:58:01 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(6:58:03 PM) ArtherDent: Dodgy
(6:58:20 PM) ArtherDent: He's not one of my town reads, that's for sure
(6:58:37 PM) ArtherDent: Overall, I'd say null to null-scummy?
(6:59:16 PM) ArtherDent: The fact that NM flipped town makes him look worse
(6:59:24 PM) ArtherDent: But maybe we should wait a little while and see how he reacts to that
(6:59:26 PM) CaffieneDeity: Scum.
(6:59:31 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(6:59:43 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think Tiphaine is going to react to that in any meaningful way.
(6:59:44 PM) ArtherDent: That's what I meant
(6:59:46 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(7:00:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think he reacts to things in a meaningful way in general, but I've kind of blanked him out, honestly...
(7:00:17 PM) ArtherDent: When I say "react", I mean will he go back to attacking Crazy, even though his theory was crap
(7:00:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh, hmm.
(7:00:32 PM) ArtherDent: Or will he re-calibrate and do something else
(7:00:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: I could definitely be making more of an effort to read him than I am, I think.
(7:01:03 PM) ArtherDent: His whole theory was that Crazy was scum trying to lynch NM-townie
(7:01:09 PM) CaffieneDeity: Right.
(7:01:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: But Tiphaine having ideas that make no sense is par for the course.
(7:01:43 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, I don't care if his ideas make sense
(7:01:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: In that case, it was a suspicious idea because N_M was scum, and he chainsawed him.
(7:01:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(7:02:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: I should probably look into how he treats scumbuddies in general.
(7:02:06 PM) ArtherDent: I just care if he is honestly trying to scum-hunt in something like an internally consistant way
(7:02:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: When he comes back, could you try to get more out of him?
(7:02:35 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(7:03:59 PM) ArtherDent: If he comes back and votes Crazy right away, without even bothering to come up with a new semi-plausible reasom, he's probably scum
(7:04:14 PM) ArtherDent: If he does come up with a new reason to vote Crazy, it could go either way
(7:04:43 PM) ArtherDent: If he comes back and totally changes direction, maybe seems a little embarassed he was wrong, then that's probably a town-tell, depending
(7:05:16 PM) ArtherDent: So, ok
(7:05:54 PM) ArtherDent: So we could vote Wanderer now, we'll react to TD after he comes back into the thread (or if he just lurks for too long we might go after him for that), and we keep an eye on Wisdom
(7:06:21 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wicked! Not Wanderer. We have too many Ws.
(7:06:21 PM) ArtherDent: Crazy, Xay, and us are town
(7:06:25 PM) ArtherDent: Yes
(7:06:26 PM) ArtherDent: Wicked
(7:06:27 PM) ArtherDent: Sorry
(7:06:33 PM) ArtherDent: Only other person is JeanDean
(7:06:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: We should just lynch all of them.
(7:06:37 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(7:06:38 PM) CaffieneDeity: That will solve the problem.
(7:06:59 PM) ArtherDent: Well, we can lynch 2 of them
(7:07:06 PM) ArtherDent: We caught scum day 1, so we get 2 more lynches
(7:07:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think Crazy's town tell on JeanDarc is...proooooooobably invalid.
(7:07:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: (But also makes Crazy that much more town.)
(7:07:23 PM) ArtherDent: Mmmm
(7:07:39 PM) CaffieneDeity: It would be stronger if he had made the post later, but he'd barely replaced in.
(7:07:48 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(7:07:53 PM) ArtherDent: What was that again?
(7:08:15 PM) CaffieneDeity: JeanDarc posted in the Open Setups thread; there was a discussion about Chosen.
(7:08:26 PM) CaffieneDeity: He said he thought it was a little scumsided.
(7:08:38 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(7:08:38 PM) CaffieneDeity: Which he also said in the game thread, incidentally.
(7:08:55 PM) CaffieneDeity: It might still be a weak towntell, actually, I don't know.
(7:09:51 PM) ArtherDent: Looks like JeanDarc never mentioned NM really before putting him at lynch -1
(7:10:02 PM) CaffieneDeity: Like, if it had happened after N_M was lynched, a scum would be in more of an "Ugh, I cannot believe this hole I'm in," but a Day 1 townie doesn't have all that Chosen-gained information yet and is just as blind as any other Day 1 townie.
(7:10:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: Mm.
(7:10:10 PM) CaffieneDeity: It was a weird lynch.
(7:10:25 PM) ArtherDent: Well, it kind of had the feel of inevitability around it
(7:10:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: Right.
(7:10:37 PM) ArtherDent: Once you get that, people tend to join just because
(7:10:38 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm still thrilled that I pushed it for the wrong reasons.
(7:10:41 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(7:10:49 PM) ArtherDent: 's all good
(7:10:54 PM) ArtherDent: We had a lot of reasons, actually
(7:11:01 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh I am absolutely not complaining.
(7:11:06 PM) ArtherDent: :)
(7:11:17 PM) ArtherDent: I voted him as soon as he voted mollie, because that felt like total BS
(7:11:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: It isn't scum's job not to get lynched for the right reasons. It's scum's job NOT TO GET LYNCHED.
(7:11:41 PM) ArtherDent: Klick's posts are good
(7:12:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also, shitty ISO metas were totally in my favor here.
(7:12:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: I didn't want to make a shitty ISO case, so I didn't. But I was thinking it.
(7:12:55 PM) ArtherDent: Heh
(7:12:57 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(7:13:51 PM) ArtherDent: Ok. So the last scum is in the group of (Jeandark, Wicked, TD, and Wisdom) and we get to lynch 2 of the 4 of them
(7:13:57 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yup.
(7:13:59 PM) ArtherDent: that's decent odds
(7:14:06 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also, 3 of them.
(7:14:11 PM) CaffieneDeity: There are 7 of us.
(7:14:13 PM) ArtherDent: Oh
(7:14:23 PM) CaffieneDeity: Are you backing Xayzeck because of his replacement timing, or something else?
(7:14:24 PM) ArtherDent: Oh right
(7:14:38 PM) ArtherDent: No I just think Xay's felt super-townie all day
(7:14:45 PM) ArtherDent: All game, I mean
(7:14:57 PM) ArtherDent: Lot of things
(7:20:11 PM) ArtherDent: Like, when Mollie explained her town-tell on us, he says "Huh. Ok, that makes sense. Could be fakable but probably not. Ok. Unvote."
(7:21:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think he is better scum than we've given him credit for. But again, the timing of his replacement implies to me that he didn't contact FakeGod overnight, which implies that he didn't send him a nightkill.
(7:21:16 PM) ArtherDent: Also, Xay's meta is very different here then from the game Mollie linked too
(7:21:29 PM) ArtherDent: In the one Mollie linked to, he was pretty low-profile scum
(7:21:36 PM) ArtherDent: Not bad scum, but not aggressive
(7:22:20 PM) ArtherDent: Wisdom mentioned that about Xay's meta as well
(7:22:35 PM) CaffieneDeity: True.
(7:29:46 PM) ArtherDent: Quick Wicked post, didn't really say anything
(7:30:19 PM) ArtherDent: You mind if I go ahead and vote for him?
(7:30:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: Do you suspect him independently of me?
(7:31:03 PM) ArtherDent: I think that it's weird he called NM neutral, never seemed to change that read, and then hammered out of the blue
(7:31:03 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm not sure if I mind. I feel like I should at least have a better reason not to suspect Tiphaine.
(7:31:19 PM) ArtherDent: We can always jump to TD later
(7:31:32 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah. Do you want to do it, or should I?
(7:31:49 PM) ArtherDent: I can do it, if you want
(7:31:57 PM) CaffieneDeity: Eh, I can do it.
(7:32:00 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(7:32:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm just not sure how much I can get out of him. He's good scum.
(7:32:11 PM) ArtherDent: 's ok
(7:32:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm still just extremely jarred by what he did.
(7:32:37 PM) ArtherDent: It was a weird play
(7:33:35 PM) ArtherDent: Also, YGS made a point of calling Wanderer town
(7:34:09 PM) ArtherDent: And made a really ambiguas comment about NM's replace-in right after it happened
(7:34:51 PM) CaffieneDeity: I feel like those are...prooooooobably noise.
(7:34:55 PM) ArtherDent: k
(7:36:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: Do you think there's anything that implies we're Chosen outside of Wanderer's claimed intent to hammer?
(7:36:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: (Which I suspect implies that we AREN'T, for what it's worth.)
(7:36:21 PM) ArtherDent: Well, the fact we didn't get nightkilled increases the odds a little
(7:36:35 PM) CaffieneDeity: Eh...I don't think so.
(7:37:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think this is like when we assumed we were a veto candidate, but nope. Pirate mollie was pretty universally townread. Her kill's jarring, but it's not unreasonable.
(7:37:54 PM) ArtherDent: Well, sure it does. If we're non-chosen, we've got maybe a 33%-50% chance of bieng nightkilled (assuming the scum were goiong to kill someone everyone reads as town). If we're chosen, it's 0%. So not being killed increases the chances of us being chosen
(7:38:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh. I guess, but that's true of other players.
(7:38:24 PM) ArtherDent: Well
(7:38:29 PM) CaffieneDeity: You could say the same thing about Wisdom or Wicked.
(7:38:31 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(7:38:33 PM) ArtherDent: Sure
(7:38:59 PM) ArtherDent: But not about people who look easier to lynch
(7:39:10 PM) CaffieneDeity: Sure.
(7:39:18 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway
(7:39:21 PM) CaffieneDeity: Those two don't, though, not really.
(7:39:36 PM) ArtherDent: Sure
(7:40:52 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, no, no real reason for thinking we're chosen, other then I was expecting to get nightkilled
(7:41:06 PM) CaffieneDeity: Fair enough.
(7:41:21 PM) ArtherDent: And the fact that we were a day 1 quickwagon probably does increase our odds
(7:41:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, I'm not too surprised by that. I mean, I wouldn't have been surprised if it HAD happened, but there were other ways it could have gone.
(7:41:25 PM) ArtherDent: A little, anyway
(7:41:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: Eh. I don't think so.
(7:41:47 PM) CaffieneDeity: And everyone just dropped us afterward.
(7:42:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: I do kind of want to wait for Wicked's post.
(7:42:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: Bluh.
(7:42:55 PM) ArtherDent: If we want to delve into NK speculation, then it looks like Mollie was likely to go after either Wisdom or XD today
(7:43:04 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(7:43:09 PM) ArtherDent: I don't see any reason to wait
(7:43:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: XD?
(7:43:25 PM) ArtherDent: TD
(7:43:32 PM) ArtherDent: Sorry
(7:44:15 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think mollie was assuming Wisdom was town at the time, but was also mollie and could easily have changed her mind?
(7:44:36 PM) ArtherDent: She flipped back and foruth on wisdom a ton of times
(7:44:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: Right.
(7:45:20 PM) ArtherDent: If I was hypo-Wisdom-scum, I'd expect Mollie to come after me
(7:45:43 PM) ArtherDent: Same for TD
(7:46:01 PM) CaffieneDeity: Tiphaine had other enemies too, though.
(7:46:07 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wicked would be an obvious one.
(7:46:13 PM) ArtherDent: Sure. Wicked, and us
(7:46:33 PM) ArtherDent: But wicked is more lynchable then Mollie
(7:47:03 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm honestly not sure how well Tiphaine recognizes things like that. But he did explicitly say that he's scared of mollie and would have vetoed her, so.
(7:47:15 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(7:47:32 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, NK speculation doesn't get you very far, usually. Just thought I'd mention it
(7:49:26 PM) ArtherDent: So, you think we should just wait for Wickad's post before we attack him?
(8:09:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: Kind of. But I'm not sure if I'm hesitating for that or just hesitating because I'm hesitating.
(8:09:37 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(8:11:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also, like, this is weighted as hell, which doesn't help. Wickedestjr is someone who I am paranoid of.
(8:13:54 PM) CaffieneDeity: Tiphaine's attack on Crazy was scummy and jarring and he was absolutely right to say it, I think.
(8:14:15 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think that's the real crux of the issue. I don't want to treat him like other people treat you.
(8:14:32 PM) ArtherDent: Fair
(8:14:47 PM) ArtherDent: But when yo uhave a good player
(8:29:03 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, sorry, didn't finish that thought
(8:29:14 PM) ArtherDent: When you have a good player, you sometimes do have to be a little more agrressive to get a read on them
(8:29:27 PM) ArtherDent: And that's ok
(8:29:32 PM) CaffieneDeity: Mm.
(8:29:34 PM) ArtherDent: Good players can handle that
(8:29:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'll press him when he posts.
(8:29:39 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(8:29:59 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, everyone thinks we're town, so we have some room to be aggressive and pushy
(8:30:03 PM) ArtherDent: So, yeah
(8:30:04 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(8:30:11 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, going to go away for a bit. Be back later
(8:30:16 PM) CaffieneDeity: All right.
(8:30:52 PM) ArtherDent: Just rememeber; when in doubt, trust your gut, trust your intial gut feeling. Your gut is pretty good
(10:55:51 PM) CaffieneDeity: I will say:
(10:57:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: I hate it when I'm proven right about something, and then some idiot who didn't get it gets on my case because no true townie could have ever figured it out on her own.
(10:58:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: So I don't feel comfortable pressing Wicked over that in particular.
(10:58:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: Even though the guy still needs to be pressed.
(11:06:56 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, sure
(11:07:07 PM) ArtherDent: It was a weird post, though
(11:07:10 PM) ArtherDent: For a couple of reasons
(11:08:17 PM) ArtherDent: It's not a question of being him up for being right; it's a question of if he had scum-knowlege or not.
(11:08:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: That's what they all say.
(11:08:33 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(11:08:39 PM) ArtherDent: Well, yeah
(11:08:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: It is!
(11:08:47 PM) ArtherDent: I know.
(11:08:53 PM) ArtherDent: And there's a good reason for that
(11:09:06 PM) ArtherDent: Scum knowlege is an even bigger deal in this game then in most, though
(11:09:23 PM) ArtherDent: Especally about the Chosen
(11:10:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh. I still feel like people who use that as an attack when they're proven wrong are just being sore losers.
(11:10:27 PM) CaffieneDeity: Although I'm not sure what was going through the rest of the town's head there?
(11:10:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: Like, two other people also voted N_M on the same page as I came out with that line.
(11:10:49 PM) CaffieneDeity: Was it related? I have no clue.
(11:10:54 PM) ArtherDent: (shrug)
(11:11:15 PM) ArtherDent: I wouldn't vote him just for that
(11:11:24 PM) ArtherDent: But I do think it's something I'd like to hear him explain
(11:11:30 PM) CaffieneDeity: Fair enough.
(11:11:49 PM) CaffieneDeity: I am gonna probably throw that one line under the bus if it comes to it, though.
(11:11:54 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(11:12:51 PM) ArtherDent: If you want to say you disagree with me about some minor detail, that's fine. If anything us disagreeing makes it even more complicated for him to social engineer his way out of trouble if he's scum

(2:04:02 PM) ArtherDent: Huh. I just realized the Chosen don't matter at all anymore
(2:04:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: Not right now!
(2:04:15 PM) ArtherDent: Well, except if they let us find scum on day 1
(2:04:20 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, not at all
(2:04:30 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, scum still have to lynch them.
(2:04:55 PM) ArtherDent: Well
(2:05:07 PM) CaffieneDeity: But it's probably better to just let them try to extend themselves further than they otherwise would just to make it happen, and scumhunt normally in the meantime.
(2:05:14 PM) ArtherDent: IF we get to a 2 chosen 1 scum endgame, do we autowin?
(2:05:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yes.
(2:05:22 PM) ArtherDent: Ah
(2:05:24 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(2:05:40 PM) CaffieneDeity: For that reason, if we don't lynch a Chosen, the last day will be four players, not 3.
(2:05:49 PM) ArtherDent: Ah
(2:06:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: The scum won't kill on that last night. We'll have a 50% chance of winning, because lynching the non-chosen townie is still a town victory.
(2:06:16 PM) ArtherDent: Hmmm
(2:06:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: But it's better not to express this sentiment in the meantime.
(2:06:20 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(2:06:22 PM) ArtherDent: Interesting
(2:06:22 PM) CaffieneDeity: At least, I think so.
(2:06:28 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, that makes sense
(2:06:40 PM) ArtherDent: Scum are allowed to no-kill, town aren't allowed to no-lynch?
(2:06:54 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah. It's weird, that rule was added by someone else and I'm not really sure why.
(2:07:01 PM) ArtherDent: Well, that's necessary
(2:07:12 PM) ArtherDent: Otherwise optimal stratagy is for town to never ever lynch at all
(2:07:26 PM) CaffieneDeity: That's only true if scum are forced to nightkill.
(2:07:31 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(2:07:33 PM) ArtherDent: I guess
(2:08:17 PM) ArtherDent: So then both sides wait 3 day-night cycles, until someone finally cracks and either kills or lynches, or else game goes to a draw after 3 days and night of nokill-nolynch?
(2:08:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well, that's always something that could theoretically happen.
(2:09:04 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, but in this game it's way more adventegous for town to no-lynch and let scum kill then in any other game
(2:09:27 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well, no, that depends on the circumstances.
(2:09:43 PM) CaffieneDeity: As it stands, if we do lynch a chosen, scum are pretty much free to no kill once, if they think that'll help them, and we can't bring it back to odds.
(2:09:45 PM) ArtherDent: Well, assuming both chosen are still alive
(2:10:16 PM) CaffieneDeity: It's not a mechanic I like, but it's one where it's probably better not to let the scum know they can do it.
(2:10:25 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(2:10:38 PM) ArtherDent: Absolutly
(2:11:12 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway
(2:11:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: I challenged Wicked without enough to back it up, and now I don't have enough to back it up.
(2:11:40 PM) CaffieneDeity: Somehow I did not see this coming!
(2:11:44 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(2:11:45 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(2:11:47 PM) CaffieneDeity: I should probably respond.
(2:11:53 PM) ArtherDent: We probed him a little, he answered
(2:12:37 PM) ArtherDent: In retrospect, we probably should have voted him when we first asked the questions, it'd be harder to vote him now
(2:12:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't want to vote him.
(2:12:49 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(2:13:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: He says he has a history of this sort of thing, I guess I just want the history and I can call it even.
(2:13:25 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, go for it
(2:13:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: Assuming it's fairly recent. If his profile is correct, he joined the site when he was 12?
(2:13:43 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, that was a perfeclty reasoanble answer he made
(2:13:49 PM) CaffieneDeity: And I thought they got me young. Damn.
(2:13:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(2:14:20 PM) ArtherDent: Not sure it tells us much, though, I think he could have made that post as either alignment.
(2:14:40 PM) CaffieneDeity: Sure, but...
(2:15:07 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't want to vote a guy just for not proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's town. I thought the quickhammer was off. If it's null, then it's null.
(2:17:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also, Tiphaine still hasn't posted today.
(2:18:58 PM) ArtherDent: If he can give some meta examples of doing it while town, then sure, the quickhammer might be null
(2:19:30 PM) ArtherDent: I still think him calling NM neutral and going right from there to a hammer is at least a moderate scum tell independent of meta, though
(2:19:58 PM) ArtherDent: But we can let that go for now
(2:20:01 PM) CaffieneDeity: Probably.
(2:20:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yosarian some people like Wicked are good at mafia and it is terrible. Some people like Tiphaine are bad at mafia and it is also terrible.
(2:22:54 PM) ArtherDent: Hahaha
(2:23:52 PM) ArtherDent: I just don't really get it, honestly; if you've have mixed feelings about someone, if you've never expresses suspicion on them at all, and they're at lynch -1, and there's pleanty of time left in the day, don't you at least question them before hammering them?
(2:24:54 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, meh, maybe he's telling the truth and just didn't want to stall the game as a replacement
(2:25:52 PM) ArtherDent: Or maybe he just knew he had a weak scumbuddy who was going down no matter what and wanted to shut him up before he said anything else
(3:20:50 PM) CaffieneDeity: God damn. Does Tiphaine actually have scumgames where his buddies got lynched?
(3:21:03 PM) ArtherDent: Can't find anything, huh?
(3:21:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: I found two scumgames of his. And in both of them, mafia won with only a single member alive, because every single other scumbag got owned by a vig.
(3:21:36 PM) ArtherDent: Wow\
(3:21:39 PM) CaffieneDeity: But lynches? No.
(3:21:41 PM) ArtherDent: Haha
(3:21:48 PM) ArtherDent: That's really hard to believe
(3:21:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=59140
(3:21:57 PM) ArtherDent: I mean...vigs were actaully effective?
(3:22:01 PM) CaffieneDeity: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=55485
(3:22:03 PM) ArtherDent: :mind blown:
(3:22:13 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, at least town still lost, so there's some sanity left in the world
(3:22:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well, Ikaruga had an SK, so maybe it killed a scum or two?
(3:22:28 PM) ArtherDent: Probably
(3:22:45 PM) ArtherDent: SK's are usually much better about killing scum then vigs are
(3:25:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: Okay, in Ikaruga, the SK killed one mafiate. The vig shot three of them.
(3:25:25 PM) ArtherDent: I just nuked myself in the face twice in a row in this game
(3:25:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: Hmm?
(3:25:40 PM) ArtherDent: Sorry, unrelated
(3:28:09 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, lol. That's some history
(5:54:49 PM) CaffieneDeity: My response is probably gonna be pretty soft, if I make it.
(5:55:01 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(5:55:11 PM) CaffieneDeity: Are you comfortable with that?
(5:55:23 PM) ArtherDent: I can throw a question in there too
(5:55:51 PM) ArtherDent: But yeah, feel free to make a response if you want
(5:56:53 PM) ArtherDent: Actually, I guess he already anticipated the question I was going to ask.
(5:56:54 PM) ArtherDent: Never mind
(5:58:54 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, feel free to respond however you like. If it was me, I might not respond at all
(5:59:56 PM) ArtherDent: I/we asked a question, signaled suspicion, brought other people's attention to something that was bothering us. He answered the question, and there's no obvious follow up, so I would just leave that be for now
(6:00:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: Just posted, actually.
(6:00:12 PM) ArtherDent: Ah, cool
(6:00:43 PM) CaffieneDeity: Thread was being inactive, and I get antsy when I go too long without saying SOMETHING.
(6:00:55 PM) ArtherDent: (nods)
(6:11:52 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, your post is fine. If the thread is dead, might as well respond conversationally, keep things goin
(6:12:55 PM) ArtherDent: If nothing happens for a while longer, and the thread still isn't going anywhere, and TD still hasn't posted, I might do a naked vote on him with no explination, see what the reaction to that is
(6:13:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(6:13:22 PM) ArtherDent: But we just made the last post in the thread, that can wait a while
(6:13:47 PM) CaffieneDeity: I feel like there must be some way to draw Tiphaine's alignment out of him. How good could he be at hiding it?
(6:13:55 PM) CaffieneDeity: But meh. You were the one who read games with him.
(6:13:56 PM) ArtherDent: Heh
(6:14:02 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(6:14:27 PM) ArtherDent: I think when he starts posting, we'll have a shot at reading him.
(6:14:35 PM) ArtherDent: I also think he's more likely to start posting if he gets voted
(6:14:51 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well, Wisdom voted him.
(6:15:12 PM) ArtherDent: True
(6:15:26 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, he's a reasonable lynch
(6:15:47 PM) ArtherDent: And, frankly, the fact that he's such an easy lynch and that no one really tried hard to lynch him yesterday implies he's not chosen
(6:16:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm not sure about that anymore.
(6:16:22 PM) CaffieneDeity: Everything one half of the scumteam did is now on the record.
(6:16:54 PM) CaffieneDeity: The Chosen aren't marked by some wagony force of nature. There is one scumbag still at large who needs a chosen dead.
(6:17:29 PM) ArtherDent: NM was relitivly nice to TD in his readthrough
(6:17:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: He was?
(6:17:54 PM) ArtherDent: "TD looks like he's trying but just not coming up with anything, it's definitely a position I've been in myself, 334 (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p7150037) in particular reads this way, not seeing Crazy's read progression at all"
(6:18:15 PM) CaffieneDeity: Hmm.
(6:18:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: Fair enough.
(6:18:27 PM) ArtherDent: And never really mentions him direclty again
(6:18:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: To be fair, N_M stopped mentioning anyone directly.
(6:18:44 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, TD just screams "easy lynch" doesn't he?
(6:18:52 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, but...
(6:19:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: Eh, whatever.
(6:19:22 PM) ArtherDent: Wanderer also never attacked TD
(6:19:28 PM) ArtherDent: Of course, Wanderer didn't do much
(6:19:35 PM) CaffieneDeity: If we lynch everyone else and Tiphaine is still standing as scum, I'll be embarrassed.
(6:19:39 PM) ArtherDent: Haha
(6:19:39 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(6:19:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: If I lose to Wicked or Wisdom, I'll be less embarrassed.
(6:19:47 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(6:20:26 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, if I'm right and TD isn't a chosen, then lynching him puts us a step closer to winning no matter what, right?
(6:20:34 PM) ArtherDent: Obv lynching scum is better
(6:20:36 PM) ArtherDent: But still
(6:20:43 PM) ArtherDent: ...
(6:20:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: That's the spirit.
(6:20:53 PM) ArtherDent: Eh, actually, that's a bad way to think
(6:21:04 PM) ArtherDent: Since odds are high we'll lynch at least 1 chosen before endgame
(6:21:10 PM) ArtherDent: Better off just focusing on the scum
(6:21:52 PM) CaffieneDeity: You could even make a case that, if we're worried about lynching chosen, we should lynch off suspects with a higher chance of being chosen early, just to rip the band-aid off and have more to analyze instead of getting blindsided in LyLo.
(6:21:55 PM) CaffieneDeity: You COULD make that case.
(6:21:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: I am not going to.
(6:22:14 PM) ArtherDent: hehe
(6:22:25 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(6:22:52 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, theoretically it's possible Wisdom is scum and has been trying to lynch TD-chosen
(6:23:12 PM) ArtherDent: But that's really the only way I see TD as possible chosen, and I don't really think it's that likely
(6:23:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: Let's just lynch Tiphaine, and then if he's chosen, we lynch those responsible who aren't us.
(6:23:25 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(6:24:03 PM) CaffieneDeity: Other reasons to keep chosen alive, incidentally, aside from the part where it's potentially game-winning:
(6:24:08 PM) ArtherDent: Well, if TD doesn't post before I go to bed tonight, and nothing else interesting happens before then, I'll naked vote him then, and see what that does to the game state
(6:24:10 PM) CaffieneDeity: It restricts who scum can kill.
(6:24:13 PM) ArtherDent: Sure
(6:24:20 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't really think we're chosen, but if we are, we're immortal!
(6:24:21 PM) ArtherDent: But scum don't want to kill TD anyway, lol
(6:24:24 PM) ArtherDent: Wooo
(6:24:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: Right, I'm saying that whoever they're passing up lynching to target Tiphaine would become killable.
(6:24:58 PM) ArtherDent: True

[...]

(10:05:44 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, I'm going to vote TD and then go to bed
(10:05:59 PM) ArtherDent: Hmm
(10:06:02 PM) CaffieneDeity: It'd be -1.
(10:06:02 PM) ArtherDent: Wicked just voted TD
(10:06:04 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(10:06:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yes.
(10:06:08 PM) ArtherDent: I think I'll wait then
(10:06:11 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, good night
(10:06:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: Night!

(10:39:11 AM) ArtherDent: Made a quick post, just expressing willingness to vote TD and saying we're only holding off because we don't want to put him at lynch -1 quite yet, but that we need to hear from him soon
(10:39:11 AM) CaffieneDeity <AUTO-REPLY>: I'm not here right now
(10:41:19 AM) CaffieneDeity: Okay.
(10:41:46 AM) ArtherDent: Ratched up the pressure another quarter-turn
(10:41:57 AM) ArtherDent: Also, I'm impatient
(10:42:48 AM) CaffieneDeity: Let's let another person vote him, then speedhammer him.
(10:42:58 AM) ArtherDent: Lol
(10:43:12 AM) ArtherDent: Not qutie *that* impatient, hehe
(10:49:46 AM) CaffieneDeity: Not sure I'm satisfied with Wicked's link. I'm not sure spontaneously hammering someone and mapping out a fakeclaim with another person you think is town are that closely related.
(10:52:04 AM) CaffieneDeity: But at the same time Tiphaine is scummy.
(10:52:12 AM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(10:52:28 AM) ArtherDent: Eh, Wicked's post so far today seem reasonable
(10:54:08 AM) CaffieneDeity: Also, if Wicked's right about the chosen, which I have no opinion on, the scum NEED to be someone who'll push one of those through.
(10:54:24 AM) ArtherDent: mmm
(10:55:07 AM) CaffieneDeity: There is no way in hell that we're getting lynched, and Xayzeck's replacement is probably not going to walk into a noose either.
(10:55:09 AM) CaffieneDeity: Probabl.y
(10:55:19 AM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(10:55:33 AM) ArtherDent: Eh
(10:56:13 AM) ArtherDent: Where does Wicked say who he thinks the Chosen are?
(10:57:01 AM) CaffieneDeity: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7169433
(10:57:04 AM) CaffieneDeity: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7171494
(10:58:00 AM) ArtherDent: Ah, ok
(10:58:12 AM) ArtherDent: So, yeah, he had the same idea I did that we might be chosen
(10:59:02 AM) CaffieneDeity: I'm not convinced that there's really enough in there to say.
(10:59:04 AM) ArtherDent: I wouldn't try too hard to do scumhunting based on that, though
(10:59:06 AM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(10:59:07 AM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(10:59:26 AM) ArtherDent: Scumhunting based on some other dogy deduction usually isn't worth doing, IMHO
(10:59:42 AM) ArtherDent: If we actually lynehd one of the chosen, then we'd have something to work with. And sadness. But still.
(11:00:22 AM) CaffieneDeity: Let's just say the scummiest thing we possibly can just to see who jumps on it.
(11:00:27 AM) CaffieneDeity: That is definitely exactly what we should do.
(11:05:14 AM) CaffieneDeity: It's sad, because back around late Day 1 I was thinking about how we obviously weren't chosen, and if we survived to LyLo with the chosen intact, it would be optimal to get ourself lynched, because, like, no one ever attacked us through the game. And it would be hilarious.
(11:05:28 AM) CaffieneDeity: But no. If we even survived that long, that alone would muddy up the waters too much.
(11:05:51 AM) CaffieneDeity: I will never get to pen "The Case To Lynch EtherDent (as written by EtherDent)."
(11:06:34 AM) ArtherDent: Haha
(11:06:52 AM) ArtherDent: yeah, it actually is a setup where jestering makes sense
(11:07:02 AM) ArtherDent: But, really, we don't know if we're chosen or not
(11:07:04 AM) CaffieneDeity: This actually has happened in the old single-Chosen games.
(11:07:22 AM) ArtherDent: So I don't think either of those plans is a good idea
(11:07:55 AM) CaffieneDeity: We're too obvtown. That is our problem.
(11:08:01 AM) ArtherDent: I mean, I could say something that initially looks scummy but actually isn't once I explain the reasoning behind it
(11:08:04 AM) ArtherDent: I'm good at that
(11:08:14 AM) ArtherDent: But then again, we kind of already did that
(11:08:15 AM) CaffieneDeity: How would scum who have to lynch us or another player even deal with us?
(11:08:18 AM) CaffieneDeity: We did.
(11:09:04 AM) CaffieneDeity: To be fair, we did that before any would-be scum had a chance to realize that they weren't ever going to get another shot at us.
(11:12:13 AM) CaffieneDeity: I think there's a part of my brain that's just fundamentally too proud to pull that.
(11:12:41 AM) CaffieneDeity: I'd be an AWFUL jester. I'd somehow wind up being universally townread anyway.
(11:15:07 AM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(11:15:37 AM) ArtherDent: Hmm. Well, if we are chosen and we did already do that, then maybe we caught Wanderer wtih that? Lol
(11:16:23 AM) ArtherDent: The other person who comes off looking a little worse if we're chosen is Xay
(11:16:49 AM) ArtherDent: But, meh, he's still probably town
(11:17:39 AM) ArtherDent: And I guess YGS
(11:18:37 AM) ArtherDent: Hmm
(11:18:37 AM) CaffieneDeity <AUTO-REPLY>: I'm not here right now
(11:19:05 AM) ArtherDent: If we did want to fence with Wicked a little more at some point, we could quote that and bring that up.
(11:19:16 AM) CaffieneDeity: Meh.
(11:20:13 AM) CaffieneDeity: There's not really anything he can say about a replacee's behavior, and it was so early in the game, and I don't even have a strong belief that we are Chosen.
(11:20:34 AM) ArtherDent: Sure
(11:20:48 AM) CaffieneDeity: Or any belief, really. I have no opinion on this.
(11:21:04 AM) ArtherDent: I'm just making note of a useful barb I can throw at him later, using his own words agaisnt him, if the situation calls for it

[...]

(4:21:20 PM) ArtherDent: Meh. TD might actually be town here. I mean, I'm not going to say so in thread, but meh.
(4:21:20 PM) CaffieneDeity <AUTO-REPLY>: I'm not here right now
(4:38:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: If we were certain he was scum, this game would be a lot easier.
(4:38:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: It wouldn't hurt to interrogate him. It's not like anyone's going to worry about him being our scumbuddy.
(4:38:28 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, yeah
(4:38:47 PM) ArtherDent: Asking him to explian his town reads was a good start
(4:39:48 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, I donno; by all rational measures, he's likely scum
(4:39:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, if we're comfortable with Crazy and Xayzeck as town, and people continue to recognize us as shining beacons of town...
(4:39:59 PM) ArtherDent: But I don't feel it
(4:40:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: Getting another town read would be REALLY, REALLY nice.
(4:40:06 PM) ArtherDent: Meh
(4:40:09 PM) ArtherDent: Sure
(4:40:23 PM) CaffieneDeity: Not that his reasons for clearing Wisdom or JeanDarc are going to make any sense.
(4:40:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: But it's worth a shot.
(4:40:36 PM) ArtherDent: Doesn't matter if it makes sense
(4:40:41 PM) ArtherDent: Only if it makes sense to *him*
(4:41:03 PM) ArtherDent: Well, if it actually makes sense, that would be useful too
(4:41:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: Sure it does. If it makes sense, we can cross the threshold into clearing half the game.
(4:41:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yes.
(4:43:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wisdom has stopped doing anything. It's weird.
(4:46:37 PM) ArtherDent: Kind of
(4:46:43 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, he's as active as anyone else is today
(4:46:49 PM) ArtherDent: But yeah, he's not acting like he was yesterday
(4:46:52 PM) CaffieneDeity: Right.
(4:47:45 PM) ArtherDent: That is weird
(4:47:58 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, we lynched a scum yesterday. Why isn't he hyped?
(4:48:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, he toned it down around when three people replaced out and people complained about him.
(4:48:22 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(4:48:37 PM) ArtherDent: But it's not just that, it's like he's not trying very hard either
(4:48:43 PM) ArtherDent: Maybe he's just busy IRL
(4:48:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm not sure what that means, since...I think generally he does not care very much whether people are annoyed or not.
(4:49:05 PM) ArtherDent: Well
(4:49:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: I did kind of explicitly ask him to lurk more. It feels silly.
(4:49:24 PM) ArtherDent: The alternate explination is he's scum who doesn't think he can lynch either chosen and has thus basically given up
(4:49:55 PM) ArtherDent: Or maybe just trying to lower his profile?
(4:49:59 PM) ArtherDent: I donno
(4:50:57 PM) CaffieneDeity: The second one is what I'm worried about. I do think Wisdom would step it up if he had to.
(4:51:13 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, we're untouchable, but we're one slot. If he wanted, say, Crazy dead, he could at least try.
(4:51:29 PM) ArtherDent: I just find it weird that he hasn't even bothered to re-read day 1
(4:51:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: Unless he wants to kill off people who'd object first.
(4:51:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: Eh. I don't think that's really a thing with him.
(4:51:45 PM) ArtherDent: Maybe

[...]

(6:40:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: "There aren't two scum left and ether was only scum if they were scum with xay" Of all the reads not to update...
(6:41:19 PM) ArtherDent: lol
(6:45:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: So yeah, that post does make me feel better about scumreading him.
(6:46:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't know. The things he's saying just don't make any sense.
(6:46:22 PM) CaffieneDeity: I could ask him for more about Wisdom.
(6:46:47 PM) ArtherDent: Sure
(6:48:39 PM) CaffieneDeity: Meh. I'm not even sure I care what he says.
(6:50:08 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, I don't really mind if we lynch him today. He could be scum and we've got like 3 lynches left
(6:50:26 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.

(10:02:00 AM) ArtherDent: Not a fan of Jean here. Only positive thing he's done is try to break the game for the town, but he might have alrady known that wouldn't work
(10:02:02 AM) ArtherDent: Aww
(10:02:06 AM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(10:03:01 AM) CaffieneDeity: I wouldn't mind flipping the wagon to him.
(10:06:58 AM) CaffieneDeity: He recently flipped scum, in an ongoing game, if you're comfortable taking meta for that. That won't say how he'd interact with N_M, but all three of those late votes were sketchy, and as a new player he has the least "but you'd think he could angle it to make it LESS SKETCHY" WIFOM going for him.
(10:08:53 AM) ArtherDent: Ok
(10:09:23 AM) ArtherDent: Let's see how he responds to my post; if he still doesn't look pro-town, then maybe I'll step it up to a vote
(10:09:44 AM) CaffieneDeity: All right.
(10:09:53 AM) CaffieneDeity: Do you think I'm staying rational on Wicked?
(10:10:22 AM) CaffieneDeity: Not gonna lie, part of my logic was "I can stand to lose to someone who's still trying more than to this sad pile of lurkers."
(10:13:35 AM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(10:13:42 AM) ArtherDent: You're fine on wicked
(10:13:55 AM) ArtherDent: He's still in the suspicious pile, but he's not at the top of the list, IMHO
(1:23:12 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, I kind of agree with TD (!)
(1:23:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: 'Scum isn't working for me at the moment.
(1:23:42 PM) ArtherDent: Ah
(1:24:03 PM) ArtherDent: TD just said Jean look like scum
(1:24:09 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh, yeah.
(1:24:21 PM) ArtherDent: Right after Jean voted TD
(1:24:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: Apparently I did get that post and just never actually read it.
(1:24:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: "Shit, hey guys, tell me if you see what I see between 727 and 729" But yeah, that goes without saying.
(1:24:44 PM) ArtherDent: (nods)
(1:24:52 PM) ArtherDent: TD is actually feeling townish to me today
(1:25:01 PM) CaffieneDeity: Jean says nothing, we go "Get your ass in gear already, this isn't okay," Jean finally posts content.
(1:25:15 PM) ArtherDent: And the content he posts is to put TD at lynch -1
(1:25:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: It is? I think Wisdom unvoted.
(1:25:29 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, true
(1:25:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: Won't be the first time that Jean thought he was putting someone at -1, though.
(1:25:43 PM) ArtherDent: But still, he voted TD based on he same logic everyone was using all day
(1:25:48 PM) ArtherDent: And that he never bothered to comment on before.
(1:25:57 PM) CaffieneDeity: Mm.
(1:26:26 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, I am favoring a Jean lynch over Tiphaine at this point.
(1:26:58 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, I'll place a vote there then.
(1:27:10 PM) CaffieneDeity: I want to interrogate him first.
(1:27:14 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(1:27:20 PM) ArtherDent: He has no votes on him now, I think
(1:27:27 PM) ArtherDent: We can vote him first and then question him
(1:27:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, I do feel like him lurking, us smacking him down for lurking, him finally posting some goddamn content, us voting him seems...
(1:28:06 PM) ArtherDent: It seems agressive, yes
(1:28:17 PM) ArtherDent: Which is why I was going to vote him and give absolutly no reason.
(1:28:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: Giving absolutely no reason is pretty fun!
(1:28:37 PM) ArtherDent: But that might be more my "throw a bomb in the room and then see what happens" playstyle, lol
(1:28:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean I am being uncharacteristically sporting in this game, honestly.
(1:29:06 PM) ArtherDent: Heh
(1:29:14 PM) ArtherDent: 's all good. Whatever works for you
(1:30:23 PM) ArtherDent: I just feel weird if I have a suspect and I'm not voting for him, unless it's lynch or lose or something
(1:30:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh. Yeah, it's cool.
(1:31:16 PM) ArtherDent: Ok, I'll go ahead and vote then. Maybe that'll knock him a little farther outside of his comfort zone
(1:31:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't feel that this game, but I do feel kind of like I've been playing some weird new character all game.
(1:31:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: And it's still an obvtown one, so I'm just letting it play out.
(1:31:35 PM) ArtherDent: Heh
(1:31:45 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, we're doing good this game
(1:32:19 PM) ArtherDent: Actually, you know what it is?
(1:32:26 PM) ArtherDent: Early this game, you said you don't like it when people vote
(1:32:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: Hmm?
(1:32:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: No, I just don't like voting early for myself.
(1:32:58 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(1:33:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: This isn't some deep Kantian thing, it's just a personal choice.
(1:33:06 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, that's fine
(1:33:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: Actually I don't think Kant was a fan of women voting, so there.
(1:33:24 PM) ArtherDent: I was just wondering if you were voting less this game because you wanted to look consistant with your early posts
(1:33:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: Eh, not really. I genuinely am just tamer than usual this game.
(1:34:06 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, well
(1:34:10 PM) ArtherDent: So far your reads have been good
(1:34:17 PM) ArtherDent: And you helped lynch a scum
(1:34:21 PM) ArtherDent: So I guess that's working for you
(1:35:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: Like, I felt a strong desire to kill N_M, but between the fact that a large part of that was for a reason I was neglecting to mention, and knowing that his lynch was almost certainly going to happen anyway, it didn't really come with a desire to really push the hell out of that lynch the way I normally would.
(1:36:11 PM) CaffieneDeity: And now Day 2 feels more like solving a puzzle than like actual scumhunting, especially since almost everyone has gone passive.
(1:36:28 PM) ArtherDent: If we hadn't pushed NM the way we did, I don't know if he would have gotten lynched
(1:36:52 PM) CaffieneDeity: Trust me. What I was doing was not pushing that lynch. At least by my standards.
(1:37:02 PM) ArtherDent: I think our attack on him was what convicned Mollie to move over to him in the first place
(1:37:03 PM) CaffieneDeity: At least until mollie tried to get off the wagon.
(1:37:06 PM) ArtherDent: Heh
(1:37:12 PM) ArtherDent: Oh, we didn't push *hard*
(1:37:18 PM) ArtherDent: And we actually got off the wagon for a little while
(1:37:33 PM) ArtherDent: But I don't think it would have happened without us
(1:37:38 PM) CaffieneDeity: Probably not!
(1:38:02 PM) CaffieneDeity: But yeah, counting from where I took over in the dealing with N_M department, I was pretty gentle on him.
(1:38:31 PM) CaffieneDeity: Gentle because I felt like he'd be lynched even if I didn't go full berserker, but gentle nonetheless.
(1:39:51 PM) ArtherDent: It's always useful to put yourself at a place where you can escleate later if it's needed.
(1:40:07 PM) ArtherDent: Well, maybe not always. But often
(1:40:14 PM) CaffieneDeity: I was!
(1:40:19 PM) ArtherDent: :)
(1:42:23 PM) ArtherDent: But, yeah. The unexplained vote, right after I pressured him to post content and he did, should worry and./ or piss Jean the hell off. But he's not really in a positon where he can attack us. He's got to react in some kind of way, though. *popcorn*
(1:42:35 PM) CaffieneDeity: Mm.
(1:43:22 PM) ArtherDent: He's been too comfortable this game.
(1:43:40 PM) ArtherDent: The town (us inclided) let him get away with doing basically nothing
(1:44:01 PM) ArtherDent: Now he's going to have to do something. And not just an easy-ass TD vote
(1:44:36 PM) CaffieneDeity: "I noticed you had scumlean on Jean/TD and slight scumlean on Xay's slot. So at the moment, you seem to be pushing the TD wagon (which Wisdom just abandoned to hop on Wicked wagon)." Also, he does know it wasn't -1.
(1:44:43 PM) CaffieneDeity: So there's that, at least.
(1:44:54 PM) ArtherDent: mmm
(2:31:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: I really should play a game where I get more in touch with my bloodthirsty roots. Even if it's not gonna be this one.
(2:31:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: Here I still think it's better to find one just more townie.
(3:03:12 PM) CaffieneDeity: From JeanDarc's position, regardless of alignment...
(3:05:38 PM) CaffieneDeity: He's gotta go up against some people he knows full well outclass him. That's more if he's scum than town, since if he's town he knows that if he can lynch the right player the game ends; if he's scum, he has to lynch someone else and then do it two more times. But either way I'm not that surprised with him taking what he can get for now, and Tiphaine's easy.
(3:07:31 PM) ArtherDent: I donno
(3:07:44 PM) ArtherDent: He's just playing like a scum, you know?
(3:07:57 PM) ArtherDent: Everything he's done perfeclty fits the "costing scum" profile
(3:08:03 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well I mean I am all for upping the pressure.
(3:08:11 PM) CaffieneDeity: And I don't disagree.
(3:08:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm just trying to piece together what fits coasting scum and what's understandable from a town newbie.
(3:09:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: All the uselessness today up to this point is scummy no matter how you frame it.

[...]

(4:28:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: ...Yeah, I agree with what Tiphaine just said, too.
(4:29:31 PM) ArtherDent: (nods)
(4:29:50 PM) ArtherDent: He's been making sense.
(9:43:08 PM) ArtherDent: Jean was accused of like 4 things by 2 different people, and he only responded to the least important part
(9:43:34 PM) ArtherDent: He didn't get even slightly upset that he's now got 2 votes and a third person suspicious of him, either.
(9:43:45 PM) ArtherDent: I think he's caught scum, and he knows it
(9:44:29 PM) CaffieneDeity: Definitely not making him more sympathetic.

(11:28:38 AM) CaffieneDeity: Yosarian I am waffling again.
(11:28:48 AM) CaffieneDeity: I think Wisdom's town again, so there's that.
(11:29:04 AM) ArtherDent: Yeah, Wisdom looks fine
(11:29:31 AM) ArtherDent: He's calling too many people town he'd eventually have to lynch if he's scum
(11:29:51 AM) ArtherDent: +
(11:30:02 AM) CaffieneDeity: Actually, that doesn't sway me, he's doing it in a way that it's easy for him to change his mind on them on a whim.
(11:30:09 AM) ArtherDent: Yeah, I guess
(11:30:21 AM) ArtherDent: But it's still tricky
(11:30:33 AM) CaffieneDeity: Not for him, I don't think.
(11:30:37 AM) ArtherDent: Ok
(11:30:54 AM) CaffieneDeity: I think that's just what he does. But...I still feel like he would have handled the N_M wagon differently as scum?
(11:31:02 AM) ArtherDent: Probably
(11:32:36 AM) ArtherDent: So what are you waffling on?
(11:33:32 AM) ArtherDent: If Wis, Crazy, and Xay are all town, then we can just lynch everyone else and win anyway
(11:33:59 AM) CaffieneDeity: I know!
(11:34:11 AM) CaffieneDeity: But brains don't work like that. I want to be right NOW.
(11:34:15 AM) ArtherDent: Sure
(11:34:24 AM) CaffieneDeity: Besides, I can't trust them to carry out our will when we're dead.
(11:34:26 AM) ArtherDent: I saw we STAY ON TARGET right now
(11:34:31 AM) ArtherDent: *say
(11:34:45 AM) ArtherDent: And if Wicked gets lynhced instead, that's ok
(11:34:59 AM) ArtherDent: It's probably either Wicked or Jean at this point
(11:35:05 AM) ArtherDent: I'd be surprised if TD flips scum now
(11:35:16 AM) CaffieneDeity: Probably.
(11:36:28 AM) ArtherDent: Why, are you considering Wicked instead today?
(11:36:32 AM) CaffieneDeity: I'm having one of those moments where I wish I could sit through shitty ISO metas long enough for it to actually follow my confirmation bias.
(11:36:41 AM) ArtherDent: hehe
(11:36:55 AM) ArtherDent: What's your confirmation bias, towards Wicked?
(11:36:56 AM) CaffieneDeity: On one hand, I think the Wicked wagon is distinctly his problem, not ours.
(11:37:06 AM) CaffieneDeity: No, waffling over JeanDarc and Tiphaine.
(11:37:10 AM) ArtherDent: Ah
(11:37:22 AM) ArtherDent: Yeah, I don't really think TD is this good of an actor, IMHO
(11:37:33 AM) ArtherDent: I mean, I could be wrong, wouldn't surprise me
(11:38:02 AM) ArtherDent: But I just don't see TD as scum here
(11:38:10 AM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, I like Wicked and on some level I want to keep him around because if we lynch a chosen his analysis about it will be better than mine, but he'll never actually get to the point where I actually trust him.
(11:38:33 AM) CaffieneDeity: Also I like the word "actually."
(11:38:45 AM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(11:38:52 AM) ArtherDent: I use that word way too much myself
(11:39:57 AM) CaffieneDeity: I think JeanDarc is pretty unlikely to be chosen anyway, dunno.
(11:40:45 AM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(11:40:53 AM) CaffieneDeity: And we have three lynches, so it'd have to be a "lynch a Chosen today, let Wicked analyze this, lynch based off of that, have lynch left over for Wicked" deal anyway.
(11:41:47 AM) ArtherDent: It's looking like Wicked is likely to get lynched today
(11:41:49 AM) CaffieneDeity: And whatever, I think Wisdom is town.
(11:41:50 AM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(11:41:56 AM) ArtherDent: And he's probably not scum either
(11:41:58 AM) ArtherDent: Erm
(11:42:01 AM) ArtherDent: Probably not chosen either
(11:42:06 AM) ArtherDent: He could very well be scum
(11:42:29 AM) CaffieneDeity: You know. I'm suddenly glad I'm terrible as scum.
(11:42:33 AM) ArtherDent: So, yeah. My first choice is still Jean, a Wicked lynch wouldn't be a bad idea.
(11:42:34 AM) ArtherDent: Heh
(11:42:52 AM) CaffieneDeity: I just wish I could handle sucking that hard on an emotional level.
(11:42:59 AM) CaffieneDeity: Then I'd have it MADE.
(11:43:02 AM) ArtherDent: Lol
(11:43:19 AM) ArtherDent: You know, having a reputation for being bad as scum is useful. Doesn't mean you actually are. ;)
(11:43:40 AM) ArtherDent: Why do you have trouble as scum?
(11:45:30 AM) CaffieneDeity: I am a terrible actor with no interest in pretending to figure out what I already know. Except I thought that awful Ludd game was multiball and I STILL couldn't catch that spark I have as town.
(11:45:52 AM) CaffieneDeity: The playstyle I've had this game would probably be easier to fake than my old one. Hypothetically.
(11:46:48 AM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think it would actually be EASY for me, just comparatively.
(11:47:08 AM) ArtherDent: Good thing about a forum mafia game is that you've got time to think
(11:47:11 AM) CaffieneDeity: On some level I just expect the town to magically be psychic.
(11:47:21 AM) CaffieneDeity: Thinking too much is bad for me!
(11:47:26 AM) ArtherDent: So you can sit there and think "How would I act if I was town?" And then do that about 90% of the time.
(11:47:50 AM) ArtherDent: The other 10%, you act just *slightly* differnetl then you would as town, in order to help your scum group win, but not enough differnetly for anyone to notice
(11:48:50 AM) CaffieneDeity: Berserker rages are what's fun. If I ever slow down, then I get anxious long before the town's figured out that anything is amiss.
(11:48:55 AM) CaffieneDeity: This is also true as town.
(11:48:59 AM) CaffieneDeity: I should post today.
(11:49:03 AM) ArtherDent: Ok
(11:49:25 AM) ArtherDent: I made a short post yesterday, but yeah
(11:54:30 AM) CaffieneDeity: Also, the best example I can think of of that "scum begging to die while the town implodes around him" case is ongoing.

[

note:

now it isn't.]

(11:55:17 AM) CaffieneDeity: That stalled out chamber wagon in Rhyme & Reason sort of counts?
(11:58:43 AM) ArtherDent: Sure
(11:59:01 AM) CaffieneDeity: Meh, it's just a weird discussion.
(11:59:22 AM) ArtherDent: Although that was more like caught scum being quiet to give his partner a better shot
(12:00:07 PM) CaffieneDeity: Sort of. I don't think he'd have been more active if he'd been the last scum.
(12:00:31 PM) CaffieneDeity: It's just confusing to me that Crazy sees it that way, but good to know if we're in a game where there's one scum left and we don't already think he's town, I guess.
(12:00:35 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(12:01:16 PM) ArtherDent: I think Crazy's comments on TD are a little differnet, though
(12:01:24 PM) ArtherDent: Like, I think Jean is scum who's given up
(12:01:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(12:01:49 PM) ArtherDent: TD just feels like town who realizes he's screwed up, understands why he might get lynched, but is still trying to be helpful anyway
(12:02:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: That's where I'm leaning now.
(12:03:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: I guess if I could choose the lynch order right now, it'd be Jean - Wicked - Tiphaine with Wisdom surviving? But I don't know how long we'll still be alive to keep pressing on this.
(12:04:31 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(12:06:39 PM) ArtherDent: I wouldn't worry too much
(12:06:58 PM) ArtherDent: I think both Crazy and Wisdom are in more or less the same place we are
(12:07:48 PM) ArtherDent: And Wicked suspects TD, and TD suspects wicked
(12:07:48 PM) ArtherDent: Ect
(12:08:18 PM) ArtherDent: I think the people we want to see get lynched are going to get lynched eventually, even if we're dead
(12:08:39 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean we are probably still going to win.
(12:08:54 PM) ArtherDent: Yes.
(12:09:05 PM) ArtherDent: I think only way we lose if one of our strong town reads is actually scum
(12:09:09 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah.
(12:09:13 PM) ArtherDent: But this isn't teh time to get paranoid about that yet
(12:09:16 PM) CaffieneDeity: It is not.
(12:10:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: Annoyingly, I think the chosen mechanic is now irrelevant for these non-Day 1 days. Either a chosen is going to get lynched or it isn't, and the last scum doesn't have much reason to care when it happens. Unless both chosen are in the untouchable pool, in which case, great.
(12:15:54 PM) CaffieneDeity: You know, if I'm ever in Wicked's position as town, I feel like I should throw a huge tantrum about it.
(12:15:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: Just on principle, you know?
(12:16:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, I'm not him, this is me being me.
(12:16:36 PM) ArtherDent: What position is that? About to be lynched?
(12:16:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yes.
(12:16:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: Lynching me is an affront to my vanity.
(12:21:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: ...I really hope that the playstyle where I think like that is still my main playstyle.
(12:24:10 PM) ArtherDent: haha
(12:24:13 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(12:24:24 PM) ArtherDent: The way Wicked is taking this all in stride does seem weird
(12:24:48 PM) CaffieneDeity: Eh. I think he feels kind of obligated to do that regardless of alignment.
(12:25:04 PM) ArtherDent: If you say so
(12:25:50 PM) ArtherDent: Aww, I was tryign to maintain an illusion of mild hydra dissonence so we could switch back to TD at will if we wanted, lol
(12:28:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: Oh. Sorry.
(12:29:00 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(12:29:02 PM) ArtherDent: It's all good
(12:29:05 PM) ArtherDent: I'm just being silly, really
(12:45:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: "Hi konowa, my intentional obvious apathy there was a reaction test, congratulations, you passed, your slot can be town now." Huh.
(12:45:51 PM) ArtherDent: I think TD just hammered Jean?
(12:45:58 PM) CaffieneDeity: No. Wicked's count was wrong.
(12:46:09 PM) CaffieneDeity: Not gonna tell him, though.
(12:46:13 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(12:46:15 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(12:46:15 PM) CaffieneDeity: Maybe he'll claim scum.
(12:46:21 PM) ArtherDent: Which one?
(12:46:22 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(12:46:23 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(12:46:29 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, I seriously doubt it.
(12:46:30 PM) ArtherDent: Let's let things go for a sec
(12:47:03 PM) ArtherDent: And, yeah, that TD post was dodgy as hell
(12:47:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: But yeah, Konowa isn't voting. Jean has us, Wicked and now Tiphaine on him, and Wicked now has Crazy and Wisdom.
(12:47:26 PM) CaffieneDeity: Actually, I liked it.
(12:47:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wicked's a bigger threat to him.
(12:48:19 PM) CaffieneDeity: Jean might sheep onto his wagon, but Wicked's more likely to clear people or to make a case that makes sense.
(12:49:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, I guess it's weirder if Tiphaine thought Jean was at -1, but he was going to survive the day either way.
(12:50:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: Uhhhhhh.
(12:50:30 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wow, what the hell is Jean's post?
(12:52:22 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also, disregard everything I said about bah posts, it was kind of dumb.
(12:53:26 PM) ArtherDent: That was a terrible post
(12:53:46 PM) ArtherDent: Jean shows that he knows the votecount, proves that he knows he's not really at lynch -1, and then says "bah, go town"?
(12:53:49 PM) ArtherDent: Like...what?
(12:53:55 PM) ArtherDent: I don't even
(12:54:21 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well, it's an old votecount, things have moved since then. Wicked really was put at -1, even though he isn't now. It's just Jean who wasn't hammered.
(12:55:30 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(12:56:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also, that sure is an interesting time to pop in and post again.
(12:56:14 PM) ArtherDent: I really don't know what to think
(12:56:19 PM) ArtherDent: About any of ti
(12:56:30 PM) ArtherDent: Wicked seems to have been trying to get Jene to hammer him
(12:57:30 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, I donno
(12:57:31 PM) CaffieneDeity: Wicked was at -1 when he said that. Tiphaine moved his vote later.
(12:57:38 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(12:57:46 PM) CaffieneDeity: It was Jean's status Wicked was wrong about.
(12:57:57 PM) CaffieneDeity: And he had no way of knowing Tiphaine was about to vote Jean.
(1:22:53 PM) CaffieneDeity: I like how we don't drag this game out as long as we possibly can.
(1:23:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: After Rhyme & Reason, it's refreshing.
(1:23:25 PM) ArtherDent: Hehe
(1:24:10 PM) CaffieneDeity: Of course now crippling paranoia because that's how it goes.
(1:24:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: Not enough to actually stop it, just the part where the goal is accomplished and the rage state wears off.
(1:26:34 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah, well. Don't worry to much. This is the part of the game where there's nothing we can really do except muddy the waters
(1:26:40 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yup.
(1:37:01 PM) CaffieneDeity: Shitty ISO metas suggest JeanDarc could be town, but that's what shitty ISO metas do. (Well, actually, they made me feel better about lynching N_M, but still.)
(2:34:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: Like, I think he is just playing to survive and is not remotely proactive about figuring out who the scum are. I just hope that he is scum who is partaking in these horrendously scummy behaviors.
(2:34:45 PM) CaffieneDeity: Anyway, his last words are his to choose. I'm not actually getting in the way.
(7:44:26 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well, JeanDarc posted in another game an hour ago.
(7:47:20 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(7:47:42 PM) CaffieneDeity: He's clearly given up! OBVIOUSLY TOWN.
(7:48:00 PM) ArtherDent: Lol
(7:48:10 PM) ArtherDent: I can say that, right
(7:48:15 PM) ArtherDent: That he posted in a different game
(7:48:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah, that's the exception to the ongoing games rule.
(7:50:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: I could try to play good cop for him, but eh. There's not really gonna be a situation where I'm actually going to want him spared.
(7:51:10 PM) CaffieneDeity: And Wicked, at least, I respect his scumhunting enough to want to keep him around on some level.
(7:51:13 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, if he comes in and, say, makes a really strong case for Wicked being scuim, or does something that looks super-town, then fine
(7:51:35 PM) CaffieneDeity: But I don't think JeanDarc has it in him, town or scum.
(7:58:33 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also Wicked is totally going to be the scum, I said too many nice things about him.
(7:58:43 PM) CaffieneDeity: That tipped the scales and retroactively changed his alignment.
(8:26:21 PM) CaffieneDeity: Also, despite what I said it feels like Wicked hasn't actually done much except defend himself lately either. He's resigned too.
(8:27:02 PM) CaffieneDeity: ...Of course, he DOES like serial killers, so maybe what Crazy said totally does apply to him wheeeeeeee.
(8:56:34 PM) CaffieneDeity: "(He's a he, by the way. It's a French thing, I believe.)" Hah. Technically true, for entirely the wrong reason.

[...]

(9:34:40 PM) CaffieneDeity: So...at the beginning of the day I wanted to hold off on it, but I think now that the game has shifted into this three out of four phase, the last scum will never produce another Chosen-based tell.
(9:35:02 PM) ArtherDent: Oh?
(9:35:20 PM) ArtherDent: What's that, you want to talk abotu who the chosen might be?
(9:35:38 PM) CaffieneDeity: If we're right about Crazy and Konowa being town, and some combination of the three of us are chosen, they've already lost. If not, they have to burn through a chosen in the process of going through those three lynches, just as a side effect of that being a necessary lynch that is not them.
(9:36:23 PM) CaffieneDeity: They have no reason to treat the chosen differently anymore. If anything, it's better for them to put off its lynch for as long as possible to deny us the information.
(9:36:47 PM) CaffieneDeity: Possibly. If we're chosen, I would like to keep my armor.
(9:38:41 PM) ArtherDent: Sure
(9:39:27 PM) ArtherDent: Although if a chosen is one of the "hard to lynch townies", the scum might take out an easy lynch today and then take a shot at the chosen tommorow
(9:39:43 PM) ArtherDent: People do tend to get paranoid later about people they thought were obvtown earlier, after all
(9:41:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: Maybe, if they get the chance. But if they do stay within the lines, the chosen doesn't matter anymore. If not, they're probably making their life harder unless someone else raises it first.

Spoiler: Day 3 Logs

(6:28:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: Well. I was dreading reaching out to Wicked, I was pretty sure it was going to make me feel worse.
(6:28:35 PM) CaffieneDeity: But actually, no, I feel better about him being scum now.
(6:28:56 PM) CaffieneDeity: Still gonna play this out, though.
(6:32:31 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(6:33:24 PM) CaffieneDeity: You got the same vibe from the you/Wisdom argument, right?
(6:33:35 PM) ArtherDent: So, today we lynch wicked or TD. If we lynch wrong, then scum kills a non-chosen, and tommorow there's 4 people left
(6:34:03 PM) ArtherDent: Assuming we don't lynch a chosen today, we still have a 50/50 shot of winning, since town wins if we lynch the townie or the scum
(6:34:08 PM) ArtherDent: Mmmm
(6:34:24 PM) ArtherDent: I donno, Wisdom might have been looking for weakness in us
(6:34:27 PM) ArtherDent: It's hard to say
(6:34:51 PM) ArtherDent: I did feel like at one point he was taunting me to try to pick a fight, but if it was a trap, he didn't really follow up on it, so I donno
(6:35:22 PM) ArtherDent: Anyway, we likely are chosen, but I'm not really exited about using that as a bais for reasoning
(6:35:51 PM) CaffieneDeity: Actually, at the moment I'm leaning toward us not being Chosen, but that's based on Wicked as scum logic.
(6:36:17 PM) CaffieneDeity: So if we lynch him and he's scum, who cares who's actually chosen? If we lynch him and he's town, the point's moot anyway.
(6:37:48 PM) CaffieneDeity: But him trying to push Wisdom-scum/us-Chosen just feels really off to me, like he's avoiding drawing attention to other potential Chosen.
(6:38:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: I'm not going to say this in thread, but that's the impression I get. He knows he's condemned, there's no point rubbing it in.
(6:38:44 PM) CaffieneDeity: In the event that he stops being condemned, then that's a thing that happened.
(6:39:06 PM) ArtherDent: Wisdom is pretty likely scum
(6:39:10 PM) ArtherDent: Erm
(6:39:11 PM) ArtherDent: Wicked
(6:39:12 PM) ArtherDent: Damnit
(6:39:15 PM) ArtherDent: W names
(6:39:16 PM) CaffieneDeity: Too many Ws.
(6:39:25 PM) ArtherDent: Wicked is pretty likely scum
(6:39:39 PM) ArtherDent: I don't know if TD knows mafia theory well enough to know that you can no-kill to put the town on evens there
(6:39:50 PM) ArtherDent: Or that it's a good idea to do so
(6:39:59 PM) CaffieneDeity: I don't think putting the town on evens was the point.
(6:40:06 PM) ArtherDent: Maybe
(6:40:16 PM) ArtherDent: It was a good play, though
(6:40:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: I mean, who even cares? That only makes sense if everyone in the town is lynchable.
(6:40:29 PM) ArtherDent: Well, no
(6:40:42 PM) ArtherDent: If town is on odds, then town has a 1/5 chance of lynching scum followed by a 1/3 chance
(6:40:50 PM) ArtherDent: If town is on evens, then town has a 1/6 followed by a 1/4
(6:41:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yes. But it's not really 1/6 if one of the townies is us.
(6:41:05 PM) ArtherDent: Right
(6:41:10 PM) ArtherDent: But that only makes it better for scum
(6:41:15 PM) CaffieneDeity: Of course, Chosen mechanics get in the way, but we did have a 3-person townbloc.
(6:41:28 PM) ArtherDent: The only downside to not kiilling is that it also makes it less likely that a chosen gets lynched
(6:41:53 PM) ArtherDent: So actually not killing makes more sense if you think you're going to lynch a chosen
(6:42:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: No, that's wrong.
(6:42:12 PM) ArtherDent: Hmm?
(6:42:27 PM) ArtherDent: If you kill a non-chosen, then it increases the odds that the next lynch hits a chosen
(6:43:02 PM) CaffieneDeity: A scum who's really desperate to lynch a chosen can no kill twice to get an extra lynch, and an extra chance to lynch the chosen. But in the framework of the townbloc we had yesterday, survival is a higher priority.
(6:43:05 PM) ArtherDent: Although i guess they could no-kill twice if they're really desperate to lynch a chosen. That hadn't occured to me ntil right now
(6:43:06 PM) ArtherDent: Yeah
(6:43:24 PM) ArtherDent: That's another option, and in interesting one
(6:43:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: I think in this case Wicked no-killed to obfuscate his impending Chosen analysis today, but again, trying to plan past him.
(6:43:50 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(6:43:52 PM) ArtherDent: maybe?
(6:44:06 PM) ArtherDent: That sounds a little too byzintine, honestly
(6:44:08 PM) CaffieneDeity: I definitely don't think it was some great masterful plan.
(6:44:18 PM) CaffieneDeity: There's a reason that no kills are not that common.
(6:44:30 PM) CaffieneDeity: But if he's scum, he IS hiding something about the chosen.
(6:44:41 PM) CaffieneDeity: Anyway, I have to disappear for a bit.
(6:44:49 PM) ArtherDent: IMHO, no killing is the correct move here basically no matter what, unless the scum thought he could direct the lynch by killing the right person
(6:45:04 PM) ArtherDent: Ok
(7:17:37 PM) CaffieneDeity: Yeah...strongly disagree with that. There are cases where flipping parity is the best move for scum, but it's rare.
(7:17:39 PM) CaffieneDeity: But anyway.
(7:17:53 PM) ArtherDent: Eh
(7:18:17 PM) ArtherDent: (shrug)
(7:19:16 PM) ArtherDent: I mean, if, say, Wisdom was scum, who would he kill that would improve his chances of winning?
(7:19:49 PM) CaffieneDeity: Crazy, but if Wisdom's scum, I think Crazy is probably Chosen anyway.
(7:19:55 PM) ArtherDent: Mmm
(7:20:56 PM) ArtherDent: TD posted less then 2 hours after the day opens, so that probably rules out "TD is scum and just forgot to send in the kill" as a theory
(7:21:45 PM) CaffieneDeity: The day did open because I asked FakeGod to open it already, not at the behest of a late scum PM.
(7:21:50 PM) CaffieneDeity: I do think the no kill was intentional, though.
(11:19:00 PM) CaffieneDeity: Not that it matters, but if Wicked is scum, Konowa is most likely one of his Chosen.

(2:10:55 AM) CaffieneDeity: The Chosen are Konowa/Tiphaine. Wicked no killed because one townbloc member was Chosen and the other two are his cover so he doesn't have to point his analysis at someone who he does need lynched.
(2:13:27 AM) CaffieneDeity: Ugh. Figures my rage state would come back after I said I'd play nice. Objectively I still think I should prepare in case of a tomorrow etc etc, but it's hard to see a world where he isn't scum.
(6:45:05 PM) CaffieneDeity: This is such a farce and he needs it to be true so badly.
(6:45:28 PM) CaffieneDeity: I just don't get why he isn't writing Konowa off as impossible.

(1:33:32 PM) CaffieneDeity: Bluh. Any objections if I hammer him?
(1:34:04 PM) CaffieneDeity: It's pro-town to work with him, it's pro-town to try to do this right even if it takes longer, but it's also killing me.

[Yosarian2]

I do regret I didn't go after YGS harder in the early game. I really was getting a bad vibe off of him, especally from the way he responded when I voted him. I shouldn't have let Ether and Wisdom talk me out of that, heh.

[Wisdom]

kewl

I enjoyed reading those too, you two make a good hydra

[Marquis]