Micro 541: Double Day Unlimited (Day 3)

[Rob14]

Vote Count #3.2:

Wickedestjr:

Kmd4390 (1)

Kmd4390:

Wickedestjr (1)

Not Voting:

RolePlay25

With 3 people alive, it takes 2 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2015-12-22 20:00:00)

[Kmd4390]

My play lacked the "this person is scum, lynch them" statements because I had literally no information at that point, it was day 1. When I said I try to "avoid making enemies as scum" that doesn't mean I don't attack people as heavily or express less confidence when I'm scum. It just means that I attack or express less

"Literally no information" would mean no one had posted. People's posts were information. Also, the last part of that paragraph is kind of exactly how you played up until you voted Titus.

You asked me why I should be townread and I'm telling you that I wouldn't have abandoned the Suzune push if I were scum. I also wouldn't have abandoned the Soren bandwagon if I were scum. 

And as I said already, having Titus who uses VCA and would want you to avoid being on those wagons explains exactly why this game would be an exception.

I don't think you were actually open to considering the possibility that I'm town. Because you voted me after my initial answer, without giving me the chance to explain what you couldn't (or didn't want to) understand. It just happened to be after I first made it clear that I was leaning towards voting you. Given that you've been town reading me all game and given that we have so much time left, your vote for me seems un-neccesarily hasty. 

I considered everything and it just made no sense that Roleplay would be scum and you would be town. Just because we have time left doesn't mean I needed it. My decision was made. I thought about it all yesterday (RL day) and I just couldn't come up with any other scenario than you being the last scum.

You haven't shown why I'm scum either! You only explained why you think RolePlay is town. 

I have, actually. I've looked at both you and Roleplay. Yes, I gave reasons why Roleplay is town. I've also talked about you plenty today. I think your Titus vote makes more sense as a bus than Actiondan's. I think your self meta for your scum game describes what you did here even though you are using it as a defense. I think the fact that you went after less active players early in the game was an attempt to stay under the radar. I've also been transparent about my own thoujght process and hopefully it is obvious to Roleplay why I did everything that I did in this game.

I don't know that you are scum, but this is three man LyLo and you voted for me - so I have to vote for you. That's just how three player LyLo works... I don't need to explain why RolePlay is town because he is the one in control right now.

Right, you had to vote me whether you are town or scum.

 All I can do right now is convince him that I am town and I think I've put a lot of effort into convincing him of that.

That's not all you can do. If you were town, you'd have two possibilities right now. One is Roleplay is scum and the game is over in which case you need me to unvote. The other would be me being scum which you even acknowledged that you haven't shown when you deflected here:

You haven't shown why I'm scum either

[Wickedestjr]

"Literally no information" would mean no one had posted. People's posts were information. Also, the last part of that paragraph is kind of exactly how you played up until you voted Titus.

Technically, yes, there is information from posts. But I can't feel confident in anything until I've seen flips. I have no reason to lack confidence or feign cluelessness as scum.

You asked me why I should be townread and I'm telling you that I wouldn't have abandoned the Suzune push if I were scum. I also wouldn't have abandoned the Soren bandwagon if I were scum. 

And as I said already, having Titus who uses VCA and would want you to avoid being on those wagons explains exactly why this game would be an exception.

That's an unreasonable idea considering Titus was on both of those wagons. We've both had success as scum in the past - there's no reason for her to suggest that idea in this game. Also: I tend not to let my partners dictate how I play.

I don't think you were actually open to considering the possibility that I'm town. Because you voted me after my initial answer, without giving me the chance to explain what you couldn't (or didn't want to) understand. It just happened to be after I first made it clear that I was leaning towards voting you. Given that you've been town reading me all game and given that we have so much time left, your vote for me seems un-neccesarily hasty. 

I considered everything and it just made no sense that Roleplay would be scum and you would be town. Just because we have time left doesn't mean I needed it.

My decision was made.

I thought about it all yesterday (RL day) and I just couldn't come up with any other scenario than you being the last scum.

But if your decision was already made, then why bother asking me to explain why I am town?

You haven't shown why I'm scum either! You only explained why you think RolePlay is town. 

I have, actually. I've looked at both you and Roleplay. Yes, I gave reasons why Roleplay is town. I've also talked about you plenty today. I think your Titus vote makes more sense as a bus than Actiondan's. I think your self meta for your scum game describes what you did here even though you are using it as a defense. I think the fact that you went after less active players early in the game was an attempt to stay under the radar. I've also been transparent about my own thoujght process and hopefully it is obvious to Roleplay why I did everything that I did in this game.

You never had any problem with my Titus vote or the rest of my voting record until you realized that you wanted to lynch me. At least I've been honest with the fact that I've town read you until now and don't have any specific problems with your play, despite thinking you are scum right now. I haven't explained why I prefer lynching you over RolePlay because nobody ever asked me!

You criticize my self meta for not being convincing enough, but I don't know what you were expecting. It's pretty impossible for me to confirm myself as town via self meta. But you asked me why you should be town reading me and self meta is really the only way that I can answer that question - I have to explain why I wouldn't have played this way as scum in order to convince you that I'm town. It seems like the defense you asked for ended up giving you ammunition for your vote.

 All I can do right now is convince him that I am town and I think I've put a lot of effort into convincing him of that.

That's not all you can do. If you were town, you'd have two possibilities right now.

1.

One is Roleplay is scum and the game is over in which case you need me to unvote.

2.

The other would be me being scum which you even acknowledged that you haven't shown when you deflected here:

You haven't shown why I'm scum either

1. Hey, I'm still having this conversation with you, aren't I? Half the reason that I'm still talking to you is in the hopes that you will realize I'm town if you're not scum.
2. I don't have to show why you are scum. As I said before, if I can convince RolePlay that I'm town, then that accomplishes the same goal. For what it's worth, he's already brought up some good reasons for thinking you might be scum.

[Kmd4390]

That's an unreasonable idea considering Titus was on both of those wagons. We've both had success as scum in the past - there's no reason for her to suggest that idea in this game. Also: I tend not to let my partners dictate how I play. 

1.) If she's doing the VCA, it's easy to say "I know I'm town" and exclude herself from the analysis
2.) It would make sense to take advice no matter how long you've been playing and work with your partner. You know this.

But if your decision was already made, then why bother asking me to explain why I am town? 

There's a timeline here. I posted my reachout in case I was wrong. THEN I stepped away from the thread, thought about the game, and made my decision. THEN I made the post where I voted you. You actually did reply before I voted. (Post 1241). Sorry to say, but that reply did nothing for me and didn't stop me from voting.

You never had any problem with my Titus vote or the rest of my voting record until you realized that you wanted to lynch me

Right. I had a cautious town read on you. Someone even asked me if I was townreading you a while back, or maybe assumed I was. I don't remember who or when, but my answer was that I wasn't entirely sure. I think I even mentioned the fact that you were under the radar and that scared me. You're right that I wasn't exactly scum reading you and yes, that means some things could have slipped past me when they happened because my focus was on Suzune, Soren, Axle, Titus, and Flubber before it was ever on you.

I haven't explained why I prefer lynching you over RolePlay because nobody ever asked me! 

Shouldn't have to. This isn't Day 1 where we play lolreactions. This is 3P LYLO.

You criticize my self meta for not being convincing enough, but I don't know what you were expecting. It's pretty impossible for me to confirm myself as town via self meta

I'm not asking you to. You were the one who brought up your scum meta. I responded by saying it didn't confirm you. I'm not sure why you brought it up if not to attempt to confirm yourself. I'm glad we now agree it doesn't though.

 I have to explain why I wouldn't have played this way as scum in order to convince you that I'm town. It seems like the defense you asked for ended up giving you ammunition for your vote.  

Nah, dude. If you were town, you could do what I have done when answering Roleplay's questions. You could be transparent and show why your actions are town motivated. Granted, you seem to have tried doing that a little, but the holes are obvious and so is your mindset here. Your "I'm not scum" attitude shows something to hide where my "I'm town" attitude shows a transparency that only town can have.

1. Hey, I'm still having this conversation with you, aren't I? Half the reason that I'm still talking to you is in the hopes that you will realize I'm town if you're not scum. 

Not buying this. You'd be showing much more urgency if you really felt this way. You're talking to me for the same reason I'm talking to you. We aren't trying to convince each other. We're trying to convince Roleplay. If he's scum, this is all pointless.

[RolePlay25]

Vote: Kmd4390

I have located the villain!

[Rob14]

Vote Count #3.3 (FINAL):

Kmd4390:

Wickedestjr, RolePlay25 (2)

Wickedestjr:

Kmd4390 (1)

Not Voting:

None.

With 3 people alive, it takes 2 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2015-12-22 20:00:00)

[Rob14]

Kmd4390,

Vanilla Townie

, has been lynched Day 3.

Wickedestjr,

Vanilla Townie

, has been endgamed Day 3.

RolePlay25 and Titus,

Mafia Goons

, win on Day 3.

Mafia wins!

[Rob14]

Scum PT: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=63797
Dead PT: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=64225

[Titus]

Gg. Not bad roleplay.

Well played everyone.

[Rob14]

RolePlay, I did want to make one comment about your play. I'm not sure if the site you've played at in the past heavily involves actual roleplaying, but that generally is not done on MafiaScum. Please don't be offended by this comment, but I found reading your posts a bit tedious at times due to the over-the-top aspects of your writing (evil or villain instead of mafia or scum, exile instead of lynch, lots of exclamation marks and hyperbole). Don't be discouraged by this! You're new to the site and what's "normal" for our way of playing Mafia, and you did a lot better than most do in their first game.

I'm just pointing this out because having tedious writing can cause a few things:

1) People don't read your posts. This means that they won't read your arguments as town, which in turn means you're unlikely to convince people to lynch your scum reads.
2) People don't take you seriously. Again, this hurts your ability as town to get your scum reads lynched.
3) People lynch you out of either annoyance or because they believe you're deliberately obfuscating. This is really bad as both alignments.

In general, here are some pointers on how to play Mafia based on my time on this site.

1) Substance over style. If you're saying something, you should have a good reason to say it. As both town and scum, you want to make your point so people can understand it, and that often involves reconsidering elements of your personal writing style. Misinterpretations of your writing can quickly turn people against you as either town or scum, which is bad. If it's not clear what you're saying to others, then you're going to get frustrated and possibly lynched. That sentence again: If what you're saying is not clear to others, then you may get lynched. See how the copyedit helps?

2) The KISS principle applies: "Keep it simple, stupid." You should figure out what's at the heart of your argument and present that. Keep it short and simple wherever possible. Wall posting is great. No-one reads it, though. Any post longer than a couple paragraphs is likely to be skimmed by a few people on the playerlist. Even those who read will find their eyes glazing over as you meander your way toward your point. I received the following piece of advice on writing once, and it certainly applies here: Take all the irrelevant details, fluff, and side-tracks in your post and put them in a series of footnotes. Then delete the footnotes.

3) Examine motivations to find scum. Town isn't always smart. Town isn't always right. But you can assume that all factions are acting in their own interest. Identify whose actions could benefit themselves if they were scum, but not if they were town. For instance, Person A asks a pertinent question of Person B. It seems like a really smart question, and Person B delivers a weak answer that couldn't reasonably be interpreted as addressing Person A's concern. But Person A never follows up on Person B's answer. In fact, Person A doesn't seriously pressure Person B again, but moves onto Person C instead. Person A should be suspected of being scum for asking that question. Town!Person A would want to follow a line of questioning to its end, because it yields information. They wouldn't question people for no reason, because that doesn't help them out. Scum!Person A, on the other hand, wants to look like town. They don't care about finding scum because they

are

scum. Asking good questions is one way to look like town, so Scum!Person A has a good reason to ask a question and doesn't necessarily need to follow up on it to achieve their goals. Scum!Person A has a good motivation for the action, but Town!Person A does not. Ergo, this points to Person A being scum, even though the action itself is asking an intelligent question! Examining motivations is the single best way to catch scum, in my opinion.

[RolePlay25]

But it was excessively difficult for me to ask good questions and determine motivations to locate the villain when I myself was the villain! Thus most of my questions were of an exceedingly poor quality. My only recourse was to assume villainous intent where none existed, and base questions on a viewpoint that all were villains. Except Axle, I believe he would have been offended and even considered targeting me had I assumed he was a villain, so I showed him great deference and respect.

I wish to apologize to poor Soren because this truly must be the most disheartening feeling.

Titus and Silver scum.

VOTE: Titus

I admit I took this in twice when I read it, it was a most impressive piece of logic. Were it luck, would be a most impressive piece of luck.

My observation to Axle may have been very "good" but it was also very easy to make - the town literally tore itself apart. Had Titus taken no initiative to actually do anything and instead allowed the good guys to continue their cannibalistic frenzy I wonder if we even should have lost a single member.

[RolePlay25]

As for the commentary on my playstyle I admire the advice. However my style also serves to keep me interested and engaged in the game. To lose engagement is to me far worse than the risk that a few may misunderstand. I shall trust that when I am good, the noble intent of my words shines through.

[SilverWolf]

Sorry I replaced out. I found out I am going to need surgery in January and was in no mental state to play. It was not alignment indicative. Sorry Titus for sucking as a partner. I'll do better next time.

Axle was town MVP. If I play against him as scum again, I'm gonna suggest a NK instead of attempting to lynch-LOL, good job.

Role Play-I didn't follow the game too closely but your genuineness really flowed through. Thanks for taking over and pulling out the win.

[Wickedestjr]

Good job RolePlay

Thanks for the game, Rob!

Sorry I replaced out. I found out I am going to need surgery in January and was in no mental state to play.

I hope everything goes well, good luck to you.

[Soren]

gg

[ProHawk]

Thanks for asking me to replace in Rob! Thanks for modding. Thanks town-buddies, we'll get em next time.

[Kmd4390]

Sorry for the loss guys...

[Titus]

But it was excessively difficult for me to ask good questions and determine motivations to locate the villain when I myself was the villain! Thus most of my questions were of an exceedingly poor quality. My only recourse was to assume villainous intent where none existed, and base questions on a viewpoint that all were villains. Except Axle, I believe he would have been offended and even considered targeting me had I assumed he was a villain, so I showed him great deference and respect.

I wish to apologize to poor Soren because this truly must be the most disheartening feeling.

Titus and Silver scum.

VOTE: Titus

I admit I took this in twice when I read it, it was a most impressive piece of logic. Were it luck, would be a most impressive piece of luck.

My observation to Axle may have been very "good" but it was also very easy to make - the town literally tore itself apart. Had Titus taken no initiative to actually do anything and instead allowed the good guys to continue their cannibalistic frenzy I wonder if we even should have lost a single member.

If I take no initiative to do anything and I am no transparent as to why, that's 99/100 a scumclaim from my slot to anyone who knows how I play scum.

[Titus]

Sorry I replaced out. I found out I am going to need surgery in January and was in no mental state to play. It was not alignment indicative. Sorry Titus for sucking as a partner. I'll do better next time.

Axle was town MVP. If I play against him as scum again, I'm gonna suggest a NK instead of attempting to lynch-LOL, good job.

Role Play-I didn't follow the game too closely but your genuineness really flowed through. Thanks for taking over and pulling out the win.

Your health comes first. *hugs* dream scum game later boo

[RolePlay25]

Sorry I replaced out. I found out I am going to need surgery in January and was in no mental state to play. It was not alignment indicative. Sorry Titus for sucking as a partner. I'll do better next time.

Axle was town MVP. If I play against him as scum again, I'm gonna suggest a NK instead of attempting to lynch-LOL, good job.

Role Play-I didn't follow the game too closely but your genuineness really flowed through. Thanks for taking over and pulling out the win.

Thank you! I am sorry to hear about your health issues, and hope that you come through happy and healthy!

[Rob14]

I was going to take a break from modding, but I've been kicking around an idea for a while now, and it's intrigued me too much to let it rest. I'm an addict, go figure.

So here's a shameless advertisement for the upcoming game based on A Midsummer Night's Dream, the famous Shakespeare play.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=7474973

[Marquis]