Creature has a 13p mini normal to review for both normalcy and balance. Please be aware all reviewers must pass the final version and this topic will be made public after the game has ended.
Reviewers: Untrod Tripod, Cogito Ergo Sum, Antihero
Creature wrote:Hello, I am feeling ready to host already. I am still working on the flavor (actually just getting images now), but I'll get it ready very quick.
I don't need a co-mod/backup-mod for now. I hosted this game off-site.
Setup (13 players):
Town Tracker
Town Doctor
Town 1-shot Bulletproof
Vanilla Town
Vanilla Town
Vanilla Town
Vanilla Town
Vanilla Town
Vanilla Town
Vanilla Town
Mafia 1-shot Strongman
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon
Role PMs:
Spoiler:
Welcome, X. You are a
Vanilla Town
.
Day Ability: Vote on someone you want lynched.
Night Ability: None.
Goal: Eliminate all threats to the town and have at least one town member alive.
Welcome, X. You are a
Town Tracker
.
Day Ability: Vote on someone you want lynched.
Night Ability: Track someone to see who they target.
Goal: Eliminate all threats to the town and have at least one town member alive.
Welcome, X. You are a
Town Doctor
.
Day Ability: Vote on someone you want lynched.
Night Ability: Protect someone from being killed. You and your target won't be notified of the attack.
Goal: Eliminate all threats to the town and have at least one town member alive.
Welcome, X. You are a
Town 1-shot Bulletproof
.
Day Ability: Vote on someone you want lynched.
Night Ability: Passive one attack immunity. You won't be notified if you were attacked.
Goal: Eliminate all threats to the town and have at least one town member alive.
Welcome, X. You are a
Mafia Goon
.
Day Ability: Vote on someone you want lynched.
Night Ability: Factional kill you can use on any player. You can communicate with your team mates [here].
Your allies are X, the
Mafia Goon
, and Y, the
Mafia 1-shot Strongman
.
Goal: Reach parity with town and have at least one mafia member alive.
Welcome, X. You are a
Mafia 1-shot Strongman
.
Day Ability: Vote on someone you want lynched.
Night Ability: Factional kill you can use on any player. You can communicate with your team mates [here]. You may use one kill that exceeds anything (doctor, roleblockers, redirections, etc).
Your allies are X, the
Mafia Goon
, and Y, the
Mafia Goon
.
Goal: Reach parity with town and have at least one mafia member alive.
You're dead.
You can visit the dead thread [here].
Tracker results:
Your target visited X.
Your target didn't visit anyone.
OP
Spoiler:
[large image here]
Mini [X]
May 13th
Why not?
Alive
Player A
Player B
Player D
Dead
Player E
, the
Vanilla Town
- Killed N1
Player C
, the
Mafia Goon
- Lynched D1
Events
Day 1
Day Start
VC: 1.1 | 1.2 | 1.3 | 1.4
Night Start (Player C's lynch)
Day 2
Day Start (Player E's death)
VC: 1.1 | 1.2 | 1.3 | 1.4
Night Start
(note this is an example, i'll update this)
This game will have no night feedback besides whether you died or not (or if you're an investigative role).
At least one player must've received this:
Welcome, X. You are a
Vanilla Town
.
Day Ability: Vote on someone you want lynched.
Night Ability: None.
Goal: Eliminate all threats to the town and have at least one town member alive.
Rules
Spoiler:
Rules
What you must know
All general sitewide rules apply and you should know that.
Do not discuss the game anywhere that's not considered game thread, unless your role PM permits you to do that.
Do not quote me or anything from the private thread. Paraphrasing is allowed.
Keep your big tongue out of insults and personal attacks.
Don't pretend to break the rules because that's a waste of time and you should feel ashamed if you do it.
Ruleset and role PMs both look fine except for one thing - the Mafia Strongman PM should not mention redirection as redirection is explicitly forbidden in Normals.
All the roles in the set-up are also normal, so normalcy checks out.
The real issue here, however, is balance. In a 10:3 set-up, town needs some significant power roles and none of the three town PRs currently amount to all that much of anything (this is even more true on account of the 1-shot strongman but there's mostly just a fundamental lack of town power).
Scumchat is awesome. Yarr!
~"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."~
It doesn't really matter that much that they're unlimited when they don't do all that much in the first place. I mean, the set-up with the single Cop has a better win rate than the Tracker-Doctor one in Matrix6 and that's in a set-up where it's significantly easier to track the nightkill!
Scumchat is awesome. Yarr!
~"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."~
On a more constructive note, maybe the simplest way to make a balanced set-up out of this is to drop the strongman and replace the doctor with a jailkeeper. Main downside of that is that it's a bit swingy in that there are two town PRs that care about how many scum there are alive.
Scumchat is awesome. Yarr!
~"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."~
Jailkeeper seems like a good idea, I'd probably replace Town Tracker with something like a Town Cop, then taking out Mafia Strongman, but I still support having a mafia member with a power role.
It doesn't really matter that much that they're unlimited when they don't do all that much in the first place. I mean, the set-up with the single Cop has a better win rate than the Tracker-Doctor one in Matrix6 and that's in a set-up where it's significantly easier to track the nightkill!
well, yeah, an unlimited alignment cop might be the strongest role in mafia. that's not really saying much.
Creature wrote:Jailkeeper seems like a good idea, I'd probably replace Town Tracker with something like a Town Cop, then taking out Mafia Strongman
if you have an alignment cop it absolutely needs to be x-shot for a mini game
your original version is fine, I just wonder if making the town powers x-shot instead of unlimited would be more balanced.
In post 11, Untrod Tripod wrote:your original version is fine, I just wonder if making the town powers x-shot instead of unlimited would be more balanced.
tracker doesn't get definitive innocents and isn't usually useful until it gets down to fewer scum, i'm fine w/ it being unlimited
The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success.
also fine being unlimited, especially given the strongman and the doubt the 1-shot bp creates (did scum really shoot the doc protection or did they just pop the bp?)
The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success.
i'm always wary of nerfing towns too much, especially in the normal queue. tracker is a role that i don't really see as needing to be nerfed just because it's already inherently a pretty weak role
The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success.
Maybe you're used to reviewing Larges but having unlimited shot roles in Mini Normals is not a big deal. The original set-up with the strongman really is significantly scumsided. Just look at any finished Mini Normal.
In post 11, Untrod Tripod wrote:well, yeah, an unlimited alignment cop might be the strongest role in mafia. that's not really saying much.
Cop vs. 3 Goons is still scum-sided. If you don't believe that, I can also point that the JK vs 2 Goons set-up also has a higher winrate. Tracker+Doctor is simply not enough town power.
In post 21, Untrod Tripod wrote:I think that in a vanilla-heavy setup, tracker is a good deal more powerful than in other setup
That's just simply not true. False tracker positives are rare regardless of set-up but it's much more informative to get an actual result rather than "X went nowhere". That's exactly why Trackers are weak - by far the most common outcome of their night action is just getting no useful information.
Scumchat is awesome. Yarr!
~"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."~
