Dungeons and Dragons

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I like 4 much better than I liked 3.5; I find it to be far better balanced between the classes. I admit to being something of a powergamer, and it always kinda annoyed me that I could do pretty much anything in 3.5 better than the rest of my party could. I had a cleric who could fight better than the fighter, disarm traps better than the rogue, and could cast cleric spells, too. 4th takes that away- each member of the party actually has a defined role that they're good at.
Plus, they eliminated a lot of the unnecessary complexity (though Essentials goes a bit too far with that), and made the rules combat-focused (rules for roleplaying always irked me).

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That being said, I've heard good things about Pathfinder, and personally, I enjoy Shadowrun and WoD more than DnD.

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Warlocks do exist, but only in supplements. They don't become a core class until 4E, where they replace Bards.

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I would, but I haven't got the Pathfinder books, and I'm legally forbidden from torrenting again.

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Here's usually what I recommend, for an optimal party

Cleric (Take more martial domains, best for tanking)
Cleric (Healing)
Cleric (More offensive spells; can multiclass Wizard/Mystic Theurge for more oomph)
Cleric with one rogue level (Best trapfinder).

It's pretty much the most powerful party. Feel free to replace the Cleric-Tank with a Druid-Tank; some of the Wild Shapes are ridiculously powerful.

[Sudo_Nym]

Mystic Theurge is fine if you're trying to get Wizard caster levels on a Cleric. I used to take the Magic and Arcana domains, then a few caster levels as a wizard, which gave a lot of Arcane power to a Cleric while still getting to level 9 divine spells.

I also like Rainbow Servant on a Sorc, though then you only get to level 8 spells in arcane and divine.

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I forget the name of it now, but there's a prestige class in FR that starts at level 4 spells, and goes up to level 9 around the 6th level in the class, and uses the cleric spell list (though gets no domains). Makes it very easy to get to level 9 despite multiclassing.

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I also like Rainbow Servant on a Sorc, though then you only get to level 8 spells in arcane and divine.

Text trumps table and the errata never fixed it: Rainbow Servant doesn't lose caster levels.

Of course, it's better on a Beguiler or a Warmage than on a Sorcerer.

The errata didn't fix it, but the DM did. Poor DM; he had a table full of powergamers and rules lawyers to deal with. We once had a three hour argument on whether Detect Magic could locate somebody under an Invisibility spell. HE CAN- IT'S A MAGIC SPELL, AND DETECT MAGIC DETECTS MAGIC SPELLS

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Plus, Wizards didn't seem to comprehend how quickly Clerics become godlike superbeings with the supplements. Immediate access to any divine spell, no divine spell failure chance from armor, feats that make the Turn Undead class feature incredible, plus some powerful prestige classes. It's just unfair.

Those turn undead feats were crazy, though. Even if you don't want to be a caster class, you're still better off being a Paladin instead of a Fighter, just to take the Divine Might feat. And then, you're still better off multiclassing to Sorc at level 4, for the spells. Argh!

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If you're casting the Magic Missile at will, you're missing out. It's actually the worst At-Will Wizards have access to; it only does damage, which is bad for a controller, and doesn't roll to-hit, which by RAW means it doesn't get bonus damage, so it's bad damage. Wizards get some very good at-wills for a controller.

The balance in 4e is pretty solid; it's not perfect, granted (Rangers get crazy DPS), but it's not terribly broken, and you can be a good character in any class, except for Seeker. I don't know anything about 4e post-Essentials, though.

I understand the hate for 4e, I guess, it's just not important to me. 4e to me, feels like a very fun RPG to play, it's just not very similar to previous DnD games. If they'd called it something else, it probably wouldn't have half the hate it gets.

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Which is where the division between roleplay and combat comes in; the same thing that's defined every RPG, really. DnD's roots are in tactical combat games, and I have no problem with 4e, which makes a real return to that. If I want a game that's heavy on RP, and a little fuzzier on combat, I'm happy to play WoD or Shadowrun.

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The balance in 4e is pretty solid; it's not perfect, granted (Rangers get crazy DPS), but it's not terribly broken, and you can be a good character in any class, except for Seeker. I don't know anything about 4e post-Essentials, though.

But I liked Seeker.

It's got a lot of flavor, I'll grant. And chucking weapons is a unique nitch. But it's strictly worse than Ranger at ranged combat (but then, every class is worse than the Ranger when it comes to dealing damage). The real problem is that several of its class features are broken (in a bad way) under RAW, and it gets almost no worthwhile abilities.

Basically, the Seeker is the only class where I can state with certainty that its outclassed in every category.

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If you're casting the Magic Missile at will, you're missing out. It's actually the worst At-Will Wizards have access to; it only does damage, which is bad for a controller, and doesn't roll to-hit, which by RAW means it doesn't get bonus damage, so it's bad damage. Wizards get some very good at-wills for a controller.

My point was less "magic missile is awesome", and more "even at level 1 wizards actually spend most of their time in combat casting spells, instead of getting 1 spell during the whole day and then throwing rocks while hiding behind the fighter for the whole rest of the adventure." That is the one good thing about the 4e system, imho; you actually feel like a wizard even at level 1.

Okay, I'll grant that. That's another thing I really like about 4e- each class has its flavor, and goes about its role in a unique way. Fighters and Paladins are both defenders, but they have their own flavor and distinct powers.

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umm so Pathfinder

I find a lot of the stuff about D&D really overwhelming and annoying to have to remember, is Pathfinder simplified? Like I get the BASICS behind D&D and I can always go thumb through the rulebook to find what to do in certain situations or how certain stats affect other stats but that's a pain in the ass

I wanna simplified system

Try GURPS

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There's always Maid RPG if you're not man enough for a real game.

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We've only had two chapters so far, but it's a fucking blast. My character gets to be completely selfish in the context of the story... and Grimm/Pie's characters HATE HIM, but I'm also really fucking

OP

so if they shittalk me I just bash them with my

2h broadsword

and laugh.

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I'd certainly in for that, if it fits with my work schedule.

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So, what do people think of the DnD Next thing going on?

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I could in for that, depending on the time frames.