[Fortress Sanctuary] Weird Dreams Mafia

[Radical Rat]

Basically a weird scumteam!

On a scale of bad idea to worst idea, how bad would it be if I just fakeclaimed Miller at the start?

[Radical Rat]

'Cause like. Mafia's probably not going to shoot over it, and even if a regular Cop exists they're not going to waste a check on me.

It could cause a problem late game, when people pass back around with more scrutiny, but ideally I'd have you and the traitor to back up the real claim when the time comes.

And also it would be really funny

[Radical Rat]

Traitor is Town, and a mason, but doesn't have access to the PT until we recruit them. They know us and that we're Town, so if we need to reveal the masonry before finding them, they should be able to pretend to be a normal mason

[Radical Rat]

Definitely checking Abnegation tonight, unless someone else makes a more obvious signal

[Radical Rat]

Oh wait that's a day ability

[Radical Rat]

Objections to Traitor Copping Abnegation?

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, that's fair. Especially since she's also given me a townread based on nothing, it should be a pretty safe bet

[Radical Rat]

@Korina

Being masons makes us immune to cult recruitment, correct?

[Radical Rat]

I don't see the crumb?

I don't actually think it's too important to crumb though, I was thinking about trying to grab the invention tonight, since you aren't allowed to protect me, and then I can just vouch for you and Abnegation when it's necessary

[Radical Rat]

Oh damn, nice. If I didn't catch it and I already know I'm a mason, probably pretty safe too.

Here's hoping Ranger doesn't just vig me then

[Radical Rat]

Interesting. Good thing we've got a Doctor then, eh?

[Radical Rat]

Objections to Traitor Copping Ranger?

[Radical Rat]

You know, the more I'm looking at this the more I think Ranger is attempting to fake soft mason. I know she paid attention to the previous setup though, so I'd think she should know better... unless she's fishing for a counter?

Kirigiri brings up a really good point about her potentially being a Traitor shouting out to Drew though. It's a bit blatant, but if no one's looking for traitors, and she's planning to claim mason, it could make sense... and I know firsthand how hard it is to convince people about a traitor when it isn't already known, so I really don't buy that Kiri's just making easy takes.

[Radical Rat]

If we catch her as Traitor, I'm just gonna vig her tonight, since we get results at night start. No reason to out anything just yet.

[Radical Rat]

Traitor Cop: Ranger

[Radical Rat]

How are we feeling about Merlyn? I think the way she tried to steer the Drew thing onto Abnegation is weird, and she's felt kinda opportunistic, but also I'm kind of starved for scumread myself so I can't really blame her for grasping at straws

[Radical Rat]

I don't think I trust sheep's vibes, Morning Tweet's pretty null for me, but I am pretty comfortable with StD being Town

[Radical Rat]

I don't want to make the kill resolution public yet. If scum haven't thought to ask directly, and are assuming NAR like Python did, they might waste a strongman shot if they have one (they did last game), or just kill someone else.

[Radical Rat]

I'd say they probably did ask, but just in case they didn't, I'm happy to let them be wrong. Deferring to NAR is a plausible enough solution that maybe they didn't interrogate it further

[Radical Rat]

Korina confirmed someone else would be added at random if that happened, so while that's obviously not ideal, we don't have to worry about losing the ability

[Radical Rat]

I assume it's okay to sub you out since I can just relay everything to you anyway

[Radical Rat]

@Mod

Assuming only one of us is in the Nightmare PT, would it be acceptable to put direct quotes in here since we know each other's alignment, or does that only apply to mod info?

[Radical Rat]

Well, specifically we only get the random replacement if it drops us below a 5/7/9 threshold. So in theory, an eight person Nightmare would be tamper-proof... but it's hard enough getting people to agree on 6-7.

Kinda why I wanted to just skip the whole mess and throw in everyone, but unfortunately it does just make more sense to try anyway and potentially get clears off

[Radical Rat]

I'm not super sure if Ranger's actually a Traitor or not, especially if the team contains Drew/Merlyn, since it was Ranger who first tried to point out Merlyn pocketing me...

Ranger read's just been oscillating wildly for me regardless, so I'm just hoping one way or another the Traitor Cop result gives me somewhere to settle.

[Radical Rat]

That's... problematic. I did have a degree of worry it would disappear after reveal, but I didn't expect it to be one-shot as a modifier.

I do believe it can be worked around, at the cost of slowing things down a bit... X-shot is a valid Normal modifier, so if we were to on the next night give an X-shot Bulletproof, where X is the highest number Korina doesn't say no to, that's close to permanent.

[Radical Rat]

Should be that starting the night AFTER we assign it, they have a passive 1-shot Bulletproof. But if the reveal in the day, they lose it.

[Radical Rat]

Hm... interesting idea though. It would require at least one of us outing, but what about a Backup Mason? When one of us dies, and they don't get added to the PT, that's a guilty result. And if we keep doing it and hitting Town, the masonry is self-sustaining even if we get shot.

[Radical Rat]

Problem is, if scum HASN'T asked these questions, BP IC might as well be permanent. But with multiple exposed vulnerabilities, it's increasingly unlikely that they don't know.

Definitely want to wait to talk about it semi-publicly in the Nightmare PT though, on the off chance we manage to get it pure.

[Radical Rat]

@Mod Would Mason be considered a valid ability for invention? If so, would they be added to this PT, or would it create a new masonry?

[Radical Rat]

Mason is considered a normal role, so yes. They would gain access to this Masonry instead of making a new one.

So, if we were to give a Bulletproof Mason invention, would joining the masonry consume the invention, or would they get to keep the Bulletproof charge?

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so that makes Bulletproof Mason almost just straight better, as long as we're willing to expose ourselves.

Bulletproof lasts longer, and while we couldn't get direct confirmation, I'm reasonably sure you can't cult from a masonry, since that has the same problem as culting from a scumteam which IS explicitly disallowed.

As a Doctor, you're more valuable than I am, and even if I die and we're somehow wrong about Abnegation, you can validate yourself from your crumb posts, so we should be able to successfully validate results until we hit a guilty.

[Radical Rat]

Bulletproof will last until they are attacked at night, and cause them to instantly join the masonry.

Sorry, probably last question, but just to clarify this, the attack causes them to instantly join the masonry, or they instantly join the masonry upon receiving the invention?

[Radical Rat]

Cool, thank you

[Radical Rat]

If it's given to non-town then it's not normal and would presumably fail/we get told it's not normal which would do the same thing as successfully giving it to scum? It depends on how the rule is interpreted actually when it comes to Town/Scum/SK exclusive roles

@mod can we get a ruling on handing out inventions that are normal only for specific alignments?

The invention will be used, but the target will not be informed what they were given, if they are not a Good Dream, similar to how Friendly Neighbor works.

Friendly Neighbor from the OP is described as failing to be awarded, so the same should apply here

[Radical Rat]

Oh no, definitely good to be sure, and I'm glad you've been asking these questions because they've often run counter to my own intuition and we wouldn't know to be doing Mason instead of IC otherwise, or my more dramatic but glaringly weaker idea of Backup Mason

[Radical Rat]

I don't want to bring it up until the Nightmare. No one now has the appetite for more mech, and if scum has the hammer ability and catches wind of this early, it could be... very bad.

[Radical Rat]

What do you think about Ranger trying to strongarm her way into the nightmare?

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, I basically agree with all of that. I have like. Just enough doubt on my Ranger read to let her get away with it though, but she'd better have one hell of a claim.

Her forcing her way in as scum would suggest she isn't Traitor for Drew though, since you really only need one scum in. Could let the cop go through just in case, or toss it on someone else?

[Radical Rat]

It'll certainly be interesting if she claims mason, but I don't think she can win that fight unless there's like the entire scumteam in the Nightmare, but that's gonna blow up as soon as one of us flips. Or both of us flip.

[Radical Rat]

And now we have a new theory from Python about Drew to make things even more confusing! XD

Maybe there is something like that going on and Ranger was trying to signal it? (which would mean her declaration that she doesn't know anything about Drew's role was a lie)

I know this is a wacky setup, but that sounds almost TOO wacky. It'd mean there's basically a secret player in the game, and I'm not entirely sure if that's even site legal? It's an interesting idea though

[Radical Rat]

Well, if they're the same alignment, there'd be no point. And if they're different alignments, I imagine that'd be something you'd want to claim about.

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, I'm thinking the play is to shoot one of Ranger/Drew and attempt to Masonize the other.

Or maybe CSF if I somehow come out townreading both of them...

[Radical Rat]

Oh if Ranger pops up Traitor, I'll be claiming and pushing for using the Nightmare Vig instead of Invention.

Killing two scum is probably more prudent than generating one clear

[Radical Rat]

Honestly, it's kinda making me doubt Python somewhat. Not enough to fully change the read, but like. Not a fan of all the wagon hopping around this close to deadline, even if the deadline's technically frozen

[Radical Rat]

Sanity check me here.

Mafia with a traffic analyzer designed to catch us (or Cult)?

[Radical Rat]

I'm thinking we just let it sit, and if he's a Town investigative, even if weak, there's a decent chance scum just shoots him tonight, right? And we can deal with it tomorrow if he lives, as the masonry will be semi-public and able to be used as justification for a Mafia TA.

[Radical Rat]

There were a couple things from Snivy that pinged me earlier, but I was busy. I'll go dig 'em up

[Radical Rat]

oh wheme is out of E-1 i wanted to see what claim they could've possibly had

Why not just vote for them then.

I don't think its them though, I'm just curious as to their claim

"One of the other significant wagon targets just unvoted me and said they would self vote to end the day, this is definitely a time for me, WhemeStar, to claim"

?

I made up my mind about unvoting wheme after csf started pushing me. All I was saying is I was curious to hear a claim, nothing to do with my reads.

This was it. Why would he want a claim from someone he thinks is Town?

[Radical Rat]

I don't trust "too scummy to be scum" arguments.

Sometime scum make mistakes, and sometimes scum openwolf to capitalize on that sentiment, and sometimes Town just need to learn not to do scummy shit.

[Radical Rat]

I'll push a bit on it, see what happens

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, that was... not a great response

[Radical Rat]

My interpretation was that they believed Wheme thought it was hammer, at least at first, and perceived the ensuing reaction to be genuine.

I don't know though, it does strike me as odd that they came back on so easily in that case...

Maybe they're partners and it was an attempt at getting Wheme an opportunity to save himself? But then why not just focus on the growing Snivy wagon instead?

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, masons in the past setup + traffic analyst this setup would be pretty compelling.

[Radical Rat]

Small wrinkle: Apparently Korina didn't tell us earlier, but in the Nightmare OP it is specified that we cannot give the same invention twice, so no neverending chain of Masons unless we get creative.

[Radical Rat]

I have already asked that question, and it appears as though I have misinterpreted. We can only award ANY "Normal Invention" once.

[Radical Rat]

Recruit: Abnegation

[Radical Rat]

No, we can't. We only get ONE Normal Invention usage.

[Radical Rat]

Mason has better utility due to keeping the bulletproof, and a presumed cult immunity though.

[Radical Rat]

All abilities are one use only.

[Radical Rat]

Sheep has already tried to suggest vigging Snivy instead, which....... obviously isn't gonna happen.

Pending Ranger's promised claim, I might be tempted to do that myself though

[Radical Rat]

I don't know that we'll get a better chance. Tomorrow there's likely to be 1-3 less Town, and if cult gets a recruit off that's an extra scum too. So Nightmare voting's gonna be harder, and we need to have at least two of us in the Nightmare in order to verify the claim (or point out your crumbs, but I want to save that in case you get stuck as the last one alive), and establishing a strong Town core now will help things go smoothly later

[Radical Rat]

Ideally our role PMs won't ever become public, though that's obviously unlikely.

I just think the longer we wait, the less likely it's going to be to make it happen, and the less useful it'll be when we do get it.

[Radical Rat]

I'm thinking Python would be a valuable addition if Town, and a very important Guilty if not.

[Radical Rat]

They're widely townread, but have done enough sketchy things to warrant double checking I think

[Radical Rat]

Wouldn't mind Drew or Snivy either.

[Radical Rat]

Drew'd be fun, he likes cults, and this is BASICALLY a Town cult shot

[Radical Rat]

I don't want Ranger in because while I respect her personally, we also have... very different gameplay philosophies, and I am prone to arguing with her at length, which I have been trying very hard to avoid doing this game.

That said, it's also probable I'm the first of us to die, since I've somehow managed to be widely townread, and if there's scum in the 'mare, they'll probably catch on even if I don't claim explicitly. So if you'd prefer Ranger over anyone else, I'm fine with it. Pending her claim that is, because if it's just some overtly scummy shit, or she refuses, I'm just gonna shoot her

[Radical Rat]

See, I think the problem with stuff like Friendly Neighbor or Cop is that, at the present moment, there's no system of trust established.

Something like IC/Mason can be verified independently. Friendly Neighbor KIND OF can, but it's delayed by a full night, and susceptible to blocking. If we have a known Town to work with though, and the means to keep them alive (like say... a Doctor to pick up the slack if a certain Bulletproof charge gets used up?), it's a strong follow up.

[Radical Rat]

You're right that clears are better later game, but establishing a network of clears now that will take several days for Mafia to kill, and (hopefully) can't be interfered with by a cult, is a strong foundation to use the "weaker" clears like FN or Cop on later.

[Radical Rat]

Still waiting on Ranger's claim, Python's asking if we should tell the main thread about only getting to use inventions once. I've suggested against that, since if we DO happen to pure, letting scum think there's a threat of more Bulletproof Conftown popping up would be good.

[Radical Rat]

Starting business;
As promised, I trust the people here enough to partially claim.
I don’t trust the people here enough to fullclaim.
I apologize; hope you understand the distinction. I

believe

you're all town; my reads can be wrong, so I'll share only what I feel I need to.

My role has four parts.
Two actions, two modifiers.

I have a night action. I refuse to specify what it is. I'll claim it only when pertinent.

I DO have a day action; it's not what people think. It's an IC, publicly confirming myself as town. The IC action has a modifier. I'd prefer to not claim the specifics, although I'll say I can't use it D2. Still, this section warrants sharing: Part of the role is I am immune to any changes to my role prior to the activation.

I clarified with the mod. I'm immune to alignment changes and being vanillaized, yet can still receive the nightmare powers and be neighborized.

[Radical Rat]

This smells like bullshit, but it should sort itself out. Eventually.

[Radical Rat]

I just don't like how she went out of her way to make sure she couldn't actually be held accountable for revealing at any given time, by claiming nebulous restrictions on it

[Radical Rat]

Sorry, I thought I had gotten permission when I asked earlier. Won't do it again.

[Radical Rat]

Spoiler: Just to prove it wasn't malicious, not disputing the new ruling

@Mod

Assuming only one of us is in the Nightmare PT, would it be acceptable to put direct quotes in here since we know each other's alignment, or does that only apply to mod info?

That’s ok.

[Radical Rat]

Anyway, Ranger has committed to revealing by D4, or after the death of the Cult Leader. Just in case the other six of us somehow die before then, make sure that happens

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, I think it’s a misunderstanding between direct quotes, which isn’t your fault! I was thinking you’d strip the identifying part from the quote - which is acceptable.

Understood

[Radical Rat]

I brought up the BP Mason without officially claiming, and while not everyone has responded yet, most seem receptive.

I DID mention that IC would lose BP by claiming, but left out that they don't get BP tonight, and that the BP is 1-shot, since those would both be relevant to scum decision making tonight.

[Radical Rat]

The present plan is for the designated mason to claim. Assuming the nightmare is pure, they won't know that they have to fakeclaim mason unless they actually receive it, in which case they'll be Town.

StD has been floated as a potential target, which people are okay with, but not enthused about.

[Radical Rat]

It was Python that suggested StD

[Radical Rat]

I don't think a code is really necessary. I can toss the idea out anyway if you like, but simply knowing that they were awarded Mason has the same effect, and since in the absence of a claim, scum would be assuming IC if they're not in the Nightmare, hiding the claim doesn't do much for survivability

[Radical Rat]

Ircher/Kirigiri/Morning Tweet are currently being discussed as targets.

I'm okay with basically any of them

[Radical Rat]

Apparently something confirmable happened with between Drew/Python, but they haven't claimed what it is

[Radical Rat]

Terrified I'm gonna PT slip and get called scum lol

[Radical Rat]

What, you don't wanna be a double Mason?

[Radical Rat]

Something tells me that the rest of the thread might insist on knowing who was targeted anyway. But I'll bring up the code idea.

[Radical Rat]

Python brought up the idea of asking the target how many partners they have, which I think is a good idea because it's harder for scum to fake that, even if they ARE in the Nightmare

[Radical Rat]

Here's my pitch of the code idea:

"A Thought That Was Had:

If masons exist, we may not actually need to have the target explicitly claim at all, and obfuscating that protects against the possibility that scum got a strongman shot again, unless we're impure.

If there's a mason present in this thread, they don't claim, but we request that some instructions get passed along to the target, and they can follow those instructions in the morning. If the instructions are followed, we know that the target had contact with someone in here. If we combine it with the number of partners idea, we can also force scum to try and guess that, creating an obvious point of failure.

Say something like... start the day including an image of the Pokemon whose Pokedex number corresponds to the number of mason partners you have."

[Radical Rat]

I also voted to give it to Kirigiri, and Abnegation sheeped me on it. These are the first two official votes

[Radical Rat]

It only actually communicates that information to people in the Nightmare, and if scum's in the nightmare odds are the target doesn't live to share anyway.

[Radical Rat]

Also pretty sure Kirigiri got hammered with sheep and Drew voting

[Radical Rat]

I mean, we could also always refuse if you're that worried about it.

Picking an absurdly high Pokemon would communicate that the message was received, and a conscious decision made to not share the number of partners. Which I think most would agree is a play that scum is unlikely to make, since if they're gambling on real masons not existing, they're more likely to try to fake BEING the masonry.

[Radical Rat]

I mean, we could also always refuse if you're that worried about it.

Picking an absurdly high Pokemon would communicate that the message was received, and a conscious decision made to not share the number of partners. Which I think most would agree is a play that scum is unlikely to make, since if they're gambling on real masons not existing, they're more likely to try to fake BEING the masonry.

As an addendum: This also means if we hit scum, and there's scum in the nightmare, there's a non-zero chance they just tell us the size of the scumteam

[Radical Rat]

So now I need to figure out who to shoot.

I'm leaning Snivy or Drew right now, thoughts?

[Radical Rat]

Does she seem the type to randomly bring up scoops of ice cream?

[Radical Rat]

Snivy it is then.

Vigilante: camelCasedSnivy

[Radical Rat]

Actually, I guess since we now know it's going to be Kirigiri we can do like.

Use X number of Kirigiri sprites in an opening wall, and that wouldn't be out of place at all.

[Radical Rat]

Alright, I floated that idea, and said it could be left to the potential masons to decide on which approach to take

[Radical Rat]

Probably a good choice.

I will just add that Korina announced the hammer, and did specify that the invention gets awarded at the start of the day, so scum paying attention will know of the vulnerability, even if they haven't explicitly asked yet.

But since we're already like 99% sure on Abnegation, she's definitely a safer target

[Radical Rat]

I'm also worried they might have caught onto me, but well. Can't do much about that, since I'm untargetable.

[Radical Rat]

As funny as it would be, you might get turbolimmed for it, and all that effort to keep things from getting claimed goes out the window

[Radical Rat]

I don't think people are THAT stupid. And there won't even be enough people who would know I didn't get the invention to do that.

Maybe if I ever have to claim, I claim bulletproof mason. Who's gonna know I didn't come up with the invention idea because of that?

Honestly not a bad idea. I don't know if it'll be believed, but you'll have whoever's still alive among us to back you up

[Radical Rat]

Welcome, Kyoko Kirigiri and/or Abnegation! Hopefully both of you!

If your name is Kyoko Kirigiri, please ensure your first post includes at least three Kirigiri sprites. If you feel spicy, put in like ten, but the rest of the Nightmare people will be expecting to see 2-3.

[Radical Rat]

I mean, you're right that it wouldn't make sense for scum to fake something that seven people would be immediately able to dispute.

I just worry it'll make people jumpy is all

[Radical Rat]

Nah, if it hits scum they shouldn't get any of it, and also won't be notified

[Radical Rat]

I think KKFC has weird vibes, but it feels more like he's just a slightly weird guy than that he's scum

[Radical Rat]

Considering changing my mind to CSF. I forgot about how weird Merlyn was, and CSF is definitely capable of a strong scum performance.

[Radical Rat]

Fuck it, sorry for the last second change Korina.

Vigilante: Cat Scratch Fever

[Radical Rat]

She had a very strong game in Terminator. I called her on it, but I couldn't convince everyone else

[Radical Rat]

Welcome, Kyoko Kirigiri and/or Abnegation! Hopefully both of you!

If your name is Kyoko Kirigiri, please ensure your first post includes at least three Kirigiri sprites. If you feel spicy, put in like ten, but the rest of the Nightmare people will be expecting to see 2-3.

Making sure this is recent and visible

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, you got redirected onto me it seems.

Are you just a straight rolecop or do you have something spicier to go with it?

[Radical Rat]

Drew heavily implied targeting Python in the Nightmare PT, so I'm considering Python cleared

[Radical Rat]

Nah, it was pretty low pressure, and honestly sheep looked pretty Town in there

[Radical Rat]

Oh, Titus was in there and was Evil Dreams. So they can be expected to know about that stuff, unless she was inactive over the night. Everyone else in there is likely not partnered with Kirigiri. Who could be cult rather than Evil Dreams. It's probably not multiball from the kills, so there probably is a cult like last game.

Yeah, I still want to wait and see what she does.

Titus WAS fairly inactive, but it's hard to judge how much she may have been able to relay regardless.

Scum not shooting Kirigiri likely indicates she's just Evil Dreams though.

[Radical Rat]

I want to wait. You can if you want to of course, but I want to see if Python claims it themselves, or if someone who shouldn't accidentally says something related

[Radical Rat]

Could go either way tbh.
I don't expect them to have any extra shots though, it'd be kinda weird if Mafia were ALL JOATs.

[Radical Rat]

Between the two, my money's on Snivy. Kicking myself over the last second vig change.

[Radical Rat]

It just hit me that we've seen at least three separate Traffic Analyst effects. Four if you count Inquiry.

[Radical Rat]

If I were to guess, I'd say having so many would be so that they could potentially catch cult if they got different results on different nights

[Radical Rat]

Since Cult's really difficult to hunt for normally

[Radical Rat]

Thinking she might have culted Python. Or vice versa perhaps.

Weird for Python to announce she's Town like that

[Radical Rat]

Actually was looking back through the Nightmare, and noticed that Titus also voted to give it to Kirigiri.... after the hammer, and after Korina had already officially announced the hammer on the same page as Titus's vote.

I didn't think anything of it at the time, but in hindsight that kind of looks like a deliberate distance attempt

[Radical Rat]

Kirigiri knew she was targeted, which means she had to have been told by someone. Titus hadn't posted since her extra vote, and a throwaway post about being happy to resolve Ranger v Kirigiri, and it was after that that we discussed the code instructions. This points toward Titus being her source of information.

[Radical Rat]

Kirigiri knew she was targeted, which means she had to have been told by someone. Titus hadn't posted since her extra vote, and a throwaway post about being happy to resolve Ranger v Kirigiri, and it was after that that we discussed the code instructions. This points toward Titus being her source of information.

Actually I just checked, and I had the order wrong in my head. We talked about the code before the hammer.

Still, she shouldn't have known she received anything.

[Radical Rat]

This ability will fail to be awarded to a player who is not aligned with The Good Dreams, and this player will not
be informed of this happening.

[Radical Rat]

Taken from Friendly Neighbor's description

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, I was really expecting them to pick up on what I was saying before I said it explicitly. With the PT thing, and my seemingly unfounded confidence.

[Radical Rat]

Assuming no masons exist and acting accordingly is really the only hope they had. I don't think she knew about sharing the number of partners since she didn't lead with it, and while she may have figured out what Python was asking about, her not responding with zero means she either wasn't accurately informed about it, or is pretending not to have been.

[Radical Rat]

It's fiiiiine, we'll get 'em

[Radical Rat]

Thoughts on sheep Cop?

[Radical Rat]

I'm thinking rolecop Ircher tonight, unless you had someone else in mind?

[Radical Rat]

Could maybe give the FN out and then have people declare whether they got an invention? If it goes to scum without an inside partner, they'll get caught out because they won't know they got it. Not foolproof, but if Mafia are in the nightmare they probably shoot sheep to stop the cop from being used, so that isn't foolproof either. They even have two nights to shoot him before he can have results.

Shooting sheep over any of {Me, Ranger, Python} is incredibly valuable information, as we basically have hard confirmation of at least one scum between KKFC and Rauth, since everyone else in the Nightmare is confirmed not Mafia in one way or another.

FN is SLIGHTLY less valuable, because it doesn't remove sheep from that pool if things go wrong.

[Radical Rat]

Python would be a strong recruitment target for cult, since Ranger is immune until her reveal, and I'm PROBABLY immune by being a mason. So he should definitely be checked later if he doesn't die first.

[Radical Rat]

As far as leaders go, I have no idea. Probably one of the lurkier slots?

[Radical Rat]

It's a high risk/high reward play. Mafia's on the ropes right now, Python's got tons of towncred to work with, and now access to two Nightmare PTs, it's basically just taking a gamble on whether you think the scumteam would die out before getting around to him.

It would be the play I make in this situation, but whether the real leader would can't be known.

[Radical Rat]

does anyone understand what python was on about when they said drew protected two people n1? are they, like, tracker or something?

I suspect it has something to do with Python's role.

In the first Nightmare, Drew asked if Python received feedback, Python said yes, and then Python said Drew targeted two people the next day.

Nothing in Drew's PM suggests feedback, so my guess would be Python has (or had) a day ability to give someone the ability to double target, and used it on Drew.

[Radical Rat]

pretty sure python uses they/them btw.

They do, I didn't even notice I was messing that up, thanks

[Radical Rat]

I really ought to check before saying these things. Still, that's probably what happened, no need to interrogate it further yet.

[Radical Rat]

Flea might also be a good one to rolecop.

[Radical Rat]

I think it should probably be possible to sell people on [Me, Abnegation, Ranger, sheep, Python], assuming we all survive the night. And I'd trust that list pretty firmly.

[Radical Rat]

Or maybe Ranger will just notice that KKFC's mutual townread analysis had us three grouped together and realize what that means

[Radical Rat]

Or y'know. Literally claiming mason first page. Sure it was scum mason, but we caught it.

I wonder if she thinks you're the wrong Traitor?

[Radical Rat]

BTW I noticed that the liminal space last game gets a factional kill when they have a recruit. So that's also something to consider, I didn't realize it would be able to do something other than recruit.

Yeah, we should be finding out if they recruited successfully tonight.

Assuming it works the same way that is.

[Radical Rat]

@Mod: If one of us were to get Treestumped, would we have PT access again, or only main thread access?

[Radical Rat]

if she thinks i'm her traitor, that's bad because i probably die.
wouldn't i have died last night though?
or would killing python have been more of a priority?

I mean I don't think she thinks you're HER traitor, because she's basically already given herself an expiration date if she's scum.

But she could think you're a Mafia Traitor now that we have strong reason to suspect one exists. It'll sort itself out though, you should be like fourth in line for night kills.

[Radical Rat]

So there actually might only be one Mafia left now, plus a traitor who may or may not count? 3+1 plus a cult that gains NK with a recruit seems like about the right amount for a 19p?

I'd agree with this.

[Radical Rat]

So, give sheep a Cop, then go for vig tomorrow with a small group's the plan, yeah?

[Radical Rat]

Plug the hole with sheep probably? Use FN instead? If I die, Aureal should probably claim since she can confirm herself without needing both of you to reveal, then go from there I guess

[Radical Rat]

I'd suggest saving the Doc for tomorrow night, when he'd be sending the result through.

[Radical Rat]

We could, but it requires nine people to do, and also delays other awards by a day, so I'd personally rather he just lives long enough to share the result.

It's your call though if you think it's likely he gets targeted tonight, go for it

[Radical Rat]

I'm browsing roles and found augmentor which seems likely to be Python's role, if what they're saying about Drew protecting two targets is true. I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I don't think Python is clear of being Mafia for being the NK target (I can't see that conversation, can you look back at it, might've just been about Python giving the augment and not Drew deciding to target Python?). But I'm not sure why Python tells everyone that Drew targeted two people after Ranger cleared Python due to thinking Drew protected them.

Okay, well, I guess I can think of why- they feel strongly positioned enough and don't want to be tooooo cleared or else people will wonder why they haven't been killed. Or will actually be killed by opposing scum (could still happen if they're Mafia and cult gains a NK like last game).

I'm still just really sus of the way Python handled KK. I mean really, asking "1 or 3+?" And KK responds in under 4 minutes. It took me a lot longer than 4 minutes to figure out what Python's implied question was! (okay, I'm probably biased by knowing what it was supposed to be) And the question's suggested answers don't even match up with the actual question, which was supposed to be number of partners. 1 obviously makes no sense as a number of mason partners. It makes me feel like Python was trying to lead her to answers that would make her look like a fresh mason in a game with no other masons. KK posting without following the instructions about pictures there could have several different meanings. She could've posted in thread without checking mason chat to see she was supposed to do something, or she could've had mason partners who weren't in the nightmare and had no idea to tell her to say anything, in addition to her just being alone, or being scum faking it. Python going right to that question makes it feel like they knew it wasn't the first two. On top of obliviously forcing Rat to clearly claim.

Drew was bantering with Python a lot about cult recruiting them, which in the context of Drew's flip was a very obvious soft target claim.
My understanding of Python bringing it up was that it was them trying to say that just because Drew flipped with Titus, and Drew targeted Python, doesn't mean that Python was the only possible kill target. Implying Kirigiri could have been protected as well, since it was in response to me pointing out her lack of being dead.

[Radical Rat]

I think it's a pretty safe bet that Drew would have targeted Python/Kirigiri, and I'm comfortable with assuming scum didn't try to kill their designated last survivor, therefore Python is 100% certified Not Mafia

[Radical Rat]

Titus was in the nightmare, and Titus flipped scum. I don't think it's TOO unreasonable for Python, who knows Drew could target two people, to have assumed that the scum in the nightmare would have attempted a kill on the recipient, once they became aware that it was possible. And if you suspect that the person being pushed was the kill target, well that's pretty clearing.

I do think they were somewhat obtuse with regard to not catching the big flashing signs I was pushing from an informed position, but. Well, I'm biased by already knowing I'm a mason.

[Radical Rat]

Also important is that Python's ability happened during the day in order for Drew to have had it available that night.

Python did not know Drew was an Elite Bodyguard, so wasn't explicitly picking protection targets if they did get to specify, and also did not know Kirigiri would be the recipient.

All signs point to Drew picking both targets, and protecting the Nightmare recipient + a universal townread that you're heavily suggesting targeting the whole time is just correct play.

[Radical Rat]

If you're talking about the hypnotist thing, I don't think that makes sense for Drew to refer to

[Radical Rat]

Well. That definitely sucks.

[Radical Rat]

At least we were all together for one night...

[Radical Rat]

Okay so. If I make a nightmare proposal including you, that almost certainly outs you as a mason at this point.

I'm prepared to go for it if you are though. Then we can hopefully treestump either you or sheep to get results if one of you dies.

[Radical Rat]

I'm also considering fakeclaiming sheep as part of the masonry. If he hasn't already been culted, it should keep him from being targeted, assuming he goes along with it.

And if he HAS already been culted, at least one of us should probably survive the night and we can rescind that claim.

[Radical Rat]

Does the neighborhood have a name?

[Radical Rat]

There is a not insignificant chance he's cult leader then.

[Radical Rat]

That was the flavor of a neighborhood Cult Leader made in the original setup. It MIGHT have been given to Town instead this time, but.... I would not trust him

[Radical Rat]

I honestly don't know. Our masonry is flavored the same, though the roles have changed slightly. Aureal's was a near exact copy though, with the only difference being a restriction she couldn't target me. Mafia faction flavor is also the same, though the roles are newish (JOAT existed before, but was different name/abilities).

Cult flavor was "Liminal Space" and... Backrooms is like. THE archetypal liminal space.

[Radical Rat]

Trying to bait the kill is ??? though.

My concern is that while we strongly suspect we have cult immunity by being masons, Korina has explicitly not given a direct answer on that. So I would have you rolecop him tonight, but... if you were to get culted you could just lie for him.

We can try it and then if he doesn't die tonight, he'll probably need to be either eliminated or Nightmare Vigged.

Which means tonight we hand out a Friendly Neighbor

[Radical Rat]

That's how it was implemented last time, with the recruits being one-way lovers.

Hard to say for sure if this is a weird gambit or not.

Can you ask if he's already used the detective shot?

[Radical Rat]

@Mod
Would a rolecop on someone recruited by a cult return their original role, or the Cult modified role?

[Radical Rat]

Possible it actually was one-shot, and there just isn't an alternate win condition this time.

I don't know. It's a very strange situation

[Radical Rat]

Alright.

I'm okay with fakeclaiming him with us to bait the kill, because him getting shot is kind of a win/win if he's telling the truth.

But if he survives the night, and we don't have a stronger guilty, he has to be the elimination.

[Radical Rat]

If you're down with it, I'll officially propose a massclaim in the morning. Or afternoon. Whenever I get up.

[Radical Rat]

Say one-shot for now.

Is KKFC in your Neighborhood? Because it sounds like he should be

[Radical Rat]

Well it's not NOT possible there's two...

If I were to guess, I'd say KKFC's version sounds scummier

[Radical Rat]

I want to wait and see what DragonEater does.

[Radical Rat]

Tonight, I think you should target StD.

DE would be nice to know, but if he's cult, and we don't have the immunity we think we do, the result's untrustworthy. StD potentially being Godfather is something we want ruled out, and even if you do somehow get recruited it shouldn't affect you outing Mafia.

[Radical Rat]

I want to wait and see what DragonEater does.

what's the connection between the traitor thing and what dragon does, though? i don't think i'm following.

Honestly, I'm not sure either. Guess it doesn't matter, it just felt like a thing that might.

[Radical Rat]

Your call to share it or not

[Radical Rat]

@Mod
You said before that nothing could block or redirect a Nightmare Inventions being awarded, but you then later said that "being made untargetable" would block an invention when Kirigiri was asking.

These answers seem contradictory, so can you confirm what would happen if someone chosen to receive an ability from the Nightmare were to be rolestopped?

[Radical Rat]

Alright, cool. Thanks. Suspected that to be the case, but had to be sure.

[Radical Rat]

Well, now I'm worried a 1 shot detective won't be enough to avoid eating a kill.

[Radical Rat]

Well, now I'm worried a 1 shot detective won't be enough to avoid eating a kill.

I mean enough to bait a kill. Brain went backwards for some reason

[Radical Rat]

What's DE70 thinking about KKFC?

[Radical Rat]

I think, in light of the large amounts of claimed protectives and investigatives, along with the revelation of a second Backrooms, we should abandon the scheme of trying to bait the kill on Dragon.

At this point, I think it's more important we get everything on the table and go for a mechanical solve. I think we have enough to make that happen. Maybe leave out the Bomb part though, just in case he gets shot anyway.

Do you have opposition to this?

[Radical Rat]

I'll let it go until the Nightmare I guess. We're pretty comfortable on no one in there being Mafia at least, so we should be able to safely explain there. And we can deal with whatever's going on with the cult tomorrow.

[Radical Rat]

Ircher has not been in the Nightmare, which so far would be the only source of the information that each Nightmare Award is only usable once. Him asking what was given implies he knows it's different.

[Radical Rat]

Abnegation Rolecops SaveTheDragons

If we're allowed to submit actions for each other

[Radical Rat]

The invention I received is an Announcing Neighborizer. As for the spicy part.... I'll give you three guesses what the Neighborhood's name is.

[Radical Rat]

Seems like it's just a generic Neighborhood name at this point

[Radical Rat]

Hey, no need to apologize to me, it helped us win