[Fortress Sanctuary] Weird Dreams Mafia

[Aureal]

Wow, we're like, powerful and stuff.

[Aureal]

7/10 Brussels sprouts

[Aureal]

It would!

I'd probably have to find some way to breadcrumb it though if you do that, in case I somehow get killed before you need that verification. This is not a thing that usually happens to me, but this game is definitely going to be a lot crazier than anything I've played so far, so who knows.

If I'm reading this right the traitor is town, just not a cool fun mason like us? But they know we exist? We should probably watch for hints from someone trying to let us know who they are.

[Aureal]

Well that seemed really easy, lol. Now I'm worried that it's a traaaaaaaaaaap!

[Aureal]

I'm wondering if there's like, a Mafia traitor too. We get two shots of the recruitment, so I'm thinking we just use it on Abnegation tonight. And then we can use the investigation on whomever in case they're a Mafia traitor? Seems like no need to use it right now, with that big old hint Abnegation dropped us.

[Aureal]

Okay, I have accomplished breadcrumb. I hope it wasn't too obvious.

Now I can go back to posting normally. Or not.

[Aureal]

Posts 12 through 18 of my ISO.

[Aureal]

I even stopped using punctuation at the end of my sentence to mark that something is different

[Aureal]

@mod: if a player is awarded a bulletproof innocent child invention from the nightmare, when do the effects take effect?
1) immediately, protecting them from a kill that same night
2) after the night kill resolves, leaving them vulnerable to a kill that night

[Aureal]

It makes sense, as an invention I think it needs to be activated by the player who receives it.

Imagine giving out miller inventions and you can see the issue with giving passive effect inventions that just work automatically. XD

[Aureal]

Do you think Python is thinking Ranger is mason now? I read page 34 again like they said and that's the only thing there I can think of that would make them think Ranger town.

If we do traitor cop Ranger and it's guilty, how do we approach it? That should mean Drew is scum so we should push to yeet him since he's confirmed for nightmare. It'd be preferable to not have to claim the ability but I guess I can if we need it for the push.

[Aureal]

I'm pretty much on the same page as you and Kyoko with all this. It's got to be Ranger who put Drew in the nightmare. The breadcrumbs almost seem a little too obvious for something as risky as traitor scum, but maybe Ranger doesn't trust Drew and the other scum to figure it out otherwise. Could mean maybe she thinks she's much more effective by getting recruited so it's worth more risk?

I haven't played a game with a traitor before, so I'll defer to your judgement on using the detector on Ranger. Could just be trying to fake soft mason, but seems like we probably won't see a more likely candidate for scum traitor, and if it's true we could swing the game significantly here if we play it right.

[Aureal]

Oh, forgot about that part. Yeah, sounds good.

[Aureal]

And at least we'll have the results for the nightmare phase so if it's a guilty, we know not to trust Drew and the nightmare isn't pure town.

[Aureal]

No strong feelings yet but about the same as that, yeah. I don't have much for scumreads either. She could be scum. Played with her a few times recently, she was kinda lurky as scum in one while confusing the crap out of town with the NKs, and more classically scummy but with bold distancing staying on her partner's wagon on day one even as they were at risk of getting yeeted. Haven't seen much of her town game.

[Aureal]

I'd be comfortable putting Python and Kyoko in the nightmare as well as us (including Abnegation). I'm leaning town on sheep, Tweet, and Save the Dragons. Any thoughts on them?

[Aureal]

I feel like that conversation was a big flag waving saying HI PLEASE ASK ABOUT KILL RESOLUTION but maybe I'm just more naturally curious, lol.

[Aureal]

Well that disclaimer is going to make it a lot harder for Ranger to fake claim mason later, if that's what the intent was.

Let's see if this changes Python's mind. If they think Ranger is mason, it should have an effect on that read.

[Aureal]

Oh, on the subject of sheep, I just finished a game with him and this feels very different than that scum game of his. He's barely doing anything here but gave some clear, reasonable reads. He was really into the long rambly posts that don't go much of anywhere as scum.

[Aureal]

I feel like we should be putting 8 people in nightmare to make sure we actually have the seven needed for the invention. I worry about that instant hammer ability scum had in the first game. If they pull it out on someone who was supposed to go and we're at exactly seven, then we're short a person. I don't really want to say it in thread though and possibly give them the idea.

[Aureal]

Korina confirmed someone else would be added at random if that happened, so while that's obviously not ideal, we don't have to worry about losing the ability

That's a strange way of handling it to my mind. It's making me even more nervous about what sort of powers scum might have. It feels like town has sooooo much at our disposal to confirm people right now, there's gotta be significant counterplay. Like the Team Mafia large where somehow it seemed the setup was sooooo townsided and yet scum wiped the floor with the town who hadn't really even considered that scum could do things like redirect actions that would be confirmations.

[Aureal]

Yeah, if that skill someone mentioned that tells how many nontown are in the nightmare exists in this version too, we definitely just want a subset in. And it'd be yet another thing that worries me about how the hell scum get to counterplay.

And I totally avoided mentioning just now that scum could use hammerer right now to even worse effect than if we had a five person proposal passed, since we'd end up with a totally random minimum nightmare.

[Aureal]

Drew trying to avert the Merlyn wagon by pushing Ranger is hilarious from a perspective of Ranger being Drew and Merlyn's Mafia traitor.

[Aureal]

I wonder why Ranger doubts Mafia have a rolecop. That seems like a quite common Mafia role...

[Aureal]

@mod: would a bulletproof innocent child invention from the nightmare be able to be activated at any time, or would it be a night action?
Would it function as a perpetual passive bulletproof effect after the invention is activated, or only for a limited time after activation?

[Aureal]

I'm super confused now, lol. Does the bulletproof even work? I can't figure out when that even takes effect now, if activating the invention makes it go away because the invention is gone, but it doesn't take effect right away upon receiving the invention either.

[Aureal]

@mod: when exactly would the bulletproof effect of a bulletproof ic invention take effect?

[Aureal]

Should be that starting the night AFTER we assign it, they have a passive 1-shot Bulletproof. But if the reveal in the day, they lose it.

Which would make the bulletproof basically useless, since people are probably going to demand the person confirm promptly, unless it's made clear that this negates the bp.

Hm... interesting idea though. It would require at least one of us outing, but what about a Backup Mason? When one of us dies, and they don't get added to the PT, that's a guilty result. And if we keep doing it and hitting Town, the masonry is self-sustaining even if we get shot.

That... Sounds complicated. That's a permanent role, not an effect you can give a shot of like cop or something so I'm not sure it'd be allowed? And how would multiple backups for the same role work, or is that even normal legal? It'd be pretty funny to get like four new masons though.

Is there anything that would prevent culting as well as a kill, like maybe role stopper? I wanna dive into the role wiki now, lol, but kinda busy at the moment.

[Aureal]

Like, why even do backup mason, of that's legal how about just mason?

[Aureal]

Apart from the STRIKE ME DOWN AND WE BECOME EVEN MORE POWERFUL aspect ofc

[Aureal]

Nice, I guess we'd better make sure of everything though.

@mod: what would happen if bulletproof mason invention were given to non-town?

[Aureal]

Hey, you can never be too sure! I wouldn't even trust my own role PM in this game if the setup didn't explicitly state that they were true!

[Aureal]

Oooh, 1555 is a good jumping off point to maybe try to nudge things in the direction of a mason invention instead without needing to directly explain all this. I've been thinking about trying to subtly get Python to reevaluate that so we don't necessarily need to be forthright about claiming. This might be the opportunity to do that...

[Aureal]

If we want to try to maneuver things in that direction now though, it might be better if you start it. Both because you're probably the better one to come forward if need be (you're a likely early night kill anyway due to being widely townread, and I'm pretty easily linked with Abnegation); and because Python is being grumpy about more mech talk and I don't really need to antagonize them anymore than I already have.

[Aureal]

I dislike most everything she's done, so no real exception there? If she's scum it would probably indicate that she's the only one of her team with a chance at getting in. Honestly not even sure why she'd want to claim appropos of nothing? Would seem to imply some sort of informative role?

[Aureal]

I'm perplexed by the way Python is bringing up my read that Ranger is not mason like this. I kinda expect Python, of all people, to be able to come up with the other reason I wouldn't read her as mason, but obviously not. Or they did and are acting like they don't because they're scum hoping to get rid of me but even then this doesn't make much sense, it just calls attention to the matter and makes them look worse after my flip. Painting me as suspicious is not how I'd expect scum to treat me if they're wanting to NK me.

[Aureal]

I'm not sure, still thinking about it. Kinda fuzzy right now. Still doesn't feel like we'll ever see a more clear possible indication of a mafia traitor.

Like, maybe she's still planning on trying to claim mason in the nightmare and say she was lying before to throw scum off, but this seems like unnecessary risk for someone who's somehow getting more townread than not (and would indeed actually be a death sentence since you'd see it and you have a vig shot XD). Although paranoia wonders if she's maybe picked up on me and Abnegation being linked and that's why her read there is going down, hoping to keep masons out of the loop entirely. But that's almost certainly paranoia.

[Aureal]

And now we have a new theory from Python about Drew to make things even more confusing! XD

Maybe there is something like that going on and Ranger was trying to signal it? (which would mean her declaration that she doesn't know anything about Drew's role was a lie)

[Aureal]

Well it wouldn't have to be that, specifically, but that sort of thing. Like, just some other player gets to write messages for Drew to post, not some unknown outsider.

[Aureal]

I'm still thinking using the traitor cop is a good move here, because I just think getting as much info as possible here is best. I feel like you're an early NK and so should probably use your vig tonight lest you not have the chance. So having the best info we can seems wise.

[Aureal]

Well, if the traitor cop is a guilty, I think we just shoot Ranger and that should convince people that Drew is scum. So making someone who's actually unclear a mason is probably better. In fact, if we want to try to convince people to go the mason route rather than ic without us coming out as mason, people probably want to choose townier slots to make sure there's actually masons to let people know when one fails.

[Aureal]

I suggest you just claim to have a traitor cop action, then!

[Aureal]

It could actually mesh well with your fake Miller claim. XD

[Aureal]

I agree with you on the Snivy wagon being weird, but I'm not really wanting to bring up my issues at the moment because I'm most perplexed by Python's sudden turnaround. And I don't really want to argue toooo much with them out of paranoia, because you being the strongest townread makes you more of a target, and I'd rather keep a pool of strong townreads rather than have people wonder why I'm not being paranoid of you. Scum won't let a town Python go deep into the game, not much point being paranoid yet.

[Aureal]

The amount of crying Wheme is doing about how Ranger is totally responsible for their wagon is really giving me 'scum trying to distance and make sure their buddy gets credit's vibes. 2037 especially.

[Aureal]

Didn't even occur to me since I was thinking it's likely just fake, but yeah that's a possibility too. Absolutely no guarantee the role is town, even if true.

[Aureal]

I don't know who the heck else is a better elimination here, though. Ranger/Drew isn't going to happen, CSF is starting to redeem the slot, and I'm still pretty null on Snivy, though some of the arguments are getting through to me.

[Aureal]

Yeah, that's like such an obviously bad idea it's a bit hard to see scum actually posting it.

[Aureal]

They better not say they're a cool PR after that comment about wanting to wake up to being the elimination. XD

[Aureal]

I'm finding Python's handling of that Wheme vote rather fishy. What did they even think the vc was? They obviously knew it wasn't hammer.

[Aureal]

Yeah, that's exactly how it struck me. Why naked vote there when momentum is going back to Snivy? If they disagree with that shift I'd hope there would be some reasoning given? It feels more like a reaction test, except why would you expect a reaction there?

[Aureal]

If Wheme actually flips scum traffic analyst, that's a great reason to use to support the idea that there are masons in the game who will be able to adjudicate when someone is given mason invention, without coming out as mason yourself.

[Aureal]

Would a different modifier count as a different invention?

[Aureal]

Mod quietly trying to stop us from breaking the game.

That's okay, no rush to do the mason invention then. We can do ic once and mason once.

[Aureal]

Oh, one invention total? Hmm. Is that restriction just for the invention or all the abilities are just one use?

[Aureal]

Interesting. I'll have to ponder that a bit. I guess that means abilities that require more people are a priority, since we could run out of people. And we'll have to expand the number of people put in for later nights in order to do it.

We definitely should have the invention be the bp Mason but it might be better to wait until one of us flips, rather than out now.

[Aureal]

Well, my thinking is that once one of our role PMs is public, everyone will know there's three masons. So it shouldn't be hard to sell them on the mason invention then, they'll know we exist to confirm or refute the new addition, and the two of us remaining aren't likely to both die that night.

[Aureal]

Yeah, trying to survive as long as possible is the trick. Unless scum is just not trying, I feel like they're going to pick us all off fairly easily once one of goes. Seeing the voidfiend traitor stuff ought to clue them in that it's Abnegation, and it's not hard to guess me from there. So that's the risk of outing if there's scum in there to see it.

Now, having a fourth mason in here would be really cool. If we're limited to one try though, we should choose potential targets carefully. If the masonry goes through we'd hopefully have someone fairly active to discuss things with, but also not so townread that the masonry confirmation seems wasted.

[Aureal]

I have trouble seeing people being willing to give it to Python since they're already so townread. Snivy would be a useful clear but might be so scumread that again, people might not want because it feels like a waste.

Drew would certainly be amusing at this point, after he's been after Abnegation and me. XD

Other names that come to mind of people who aren't widely read one way or another but seem likely to contribute if they join us would be KKFC, Kyoko, Ranger.

Using the friendly neighbor this time though might be a good idea? If you give it to someone and they don't seem to even know that it's a friendly neighbor instead of the assumed ic, that tells us that they didn't get it (scum) and no scummates were in the nightmare to tell them.

[Aureal]

Well, I guess they could

pretend

to not know. But that would be certain doom. Pretending to receive a FN shot could still be played around by claiming you targeted the NK or were blocked or something.

[Aureal]

Nah, was just throwing that out there. If you don't like, disregard. If she's town here, I probably have some issues communicating well with her too, since obviously I've been finding her way of playing rather scummy.

[Aureal]

Do you think people might go for a five person nightmare next time, to hopefully better avoid scum being in it? That would be safer to claim in, though you wouldn't be able to award the invention until a later night.

There's a cop shot invention too. But I feel like using all the possible clearing options first means those people just end up night killed by late game though. A clear is much more worthwhile day six than day two.

[Aureal]

The immunity to things before activating IC actually tracks with what we were told about the use of BP IC invention. And I'm not sure why someone would falsely claim, relatively unprompted, to be able to pop IC.

Yeah, it'll sort itself out.

[Aureal]

Cool. Hopefully nobody will think of 'but what if none of the masons are in the nightmare and thus don't know to tell people if the person fails to receive the mason invention'?

Maybe if they do, it'd reassure them to suggest that we can tree stump a dead mason if need be in order to get info on whether the mason recruit succeeded...

[Aureal]

Hmmm, would it be too cheap for you guys to ask everyone who wasn't in the nightmare to claim whether or not they received the invention?

[Aureal]

And then we pass along a code phrase for the new mason to use, like "don't feel like using it today, maybe tomorrow" and everyone in the nightmare knows they got the mason and a mason was there too to give them the code? If that's acceptable under the rules, I'm honestly confused what "provable private communication" means.

@mod: is that acceptable?

[Aureal]

Or that a scumbuddy passed it along, but that's also valuable info. Scum would have to calculate whether it's worth the risk of a mason knowing and catching them out anyway.

[Aureal]

Also who the heck is suggesting STD?! That's kinda fishy! Who wants to sort him that badly? Do they think he's going to be way more communicative to mason buddies?

[Aureal]

Still not entirely clear, but I have a better (and hopefully easier to keep acceptable) idea. What if we just tell them to reference something that isn't likely to come up normally, like Gundam Wing?

[Aureal]

See viewtopic.php?p=282523#p282523 for an example of me doing this long ago to show I had message power and I'm not sure whether that's allowed anymore.

[Aureal]

I don't think a code is really necessary. I can toss the idea out anyway if you like, but simply knowing that they were awarded Mason has the same effect, and since in the absence of a claim, scum would be assuming IC if they're not in the Nightmare, hiding the claim doesn't do much for survivability

The point of the code would be so the target doesn't have to claim. They just casually drop the code into conversation, and people in the nightmare know that it got passed on so either the invention worked or a scumbuddy was in the nightmare to tell them to do it. At which point they risk getting called out by real masons.

Ircher/Kirigiri/Morning Tweet are currently being discussed as targets.

I'm okay with basically any of them

Would favor the latter two, they'd be helpful to have on board. Ircher probably won't be as engaged.

Just make sure it's not me.

[Aureal]

"We decided that the first rule of Nightmare is, we don't talk about Nightmare"

[Aureal]

I... Don't know that there's any benefit to telling people how many masons there are?

[Aureal]

It only actually communicates that information to people in the Nightmare, and if scum's in the nightmare odds are the target doesn't live to share anyway.

Yeah, that would be the concern. I feel like that's more valuable information to scum. I guess you can't explain that we're all pretty confirmable even without the others without giving away too much, though.

[Aureal]

And yeah, scum would have a harder time faking the appropriate number of masons, but that only becomes relevant if there's scum in the nightmare and no masons. Which isn't the case but you don't officially know that.

[Aureal]

That would be funny. Alright, I won't insist.

I'm not sure the Pokedex is going to be a very subtle drop for our new mason though. She doesn't seem the type to just randomly talk about Pokemon, people will realize something is up. Maybe something less weird but still specific? Like scoops of ice cream or something?

[Aureal]

I wouldn't be averse to shooting Snivy. Drew seems more likely town than him.

Does she seem the type to randomly bring up scoops of ice cream?

It can probably be worked in with less raised eyebrows. "After three scoops of ice cream I feel ready for this game again." A little weird but not totally out of left field. *shrug*

[Aureal]

Even better!

[Aureal]

I think I'll doc Abnegation. She seems like a possible NK target, being widely townread, and it'd be a huge bummer to not even get her in here.

[Aureal]

Well, if there's no scum, no problem. And if there is, you being an obviously desirable nk target might make them shy away because a protective could see that too.

[Aureal]

Ooooooh, I wanna start the day off by making a joke about opening my mailbox and getting an IC (Insane Clown).

THEN EVERYONE WILL BE CONFUSED ABOUT WHETHER I'M BULLETPROOF NOW

[Aureal]

I don't think people are THAT stupid. And there won't even be enough people who would know I didn't get the invention to do that.

Maybe if I ever have to claim, I claim bulletproof mason. Who's gonna know I didn't come up with the invention idea because of that?

[Aureal]

Doctor: Abnegation

[Aureal]

I mean, if you really think the ic joke is a big risk, I won't. I don't see much reason for scum to do it though. If I'm scum and don't have nightmare knowledge and am just guessing I might have gotten it... I still can't use it, so all a successful guess does is maybe try to sway people out of making me use it right away?

There is the risk of it making people more likely to think I'm mason, those in the nightmare in particular. But if they're town that's good. And if those people already think you could be mason, we've probably got issues anyway if they're Mafia.

[Aureal]

I'm not actually sure if scum would know they got a bp ic invention or not, now that I think about it. Maybe they would get a notification because they can have the bp, just not the ic? Doesn't really matter though, I think.

What are we thinking of KKFC? I've skimmed his ISO from his other two games and have some concerns. If Snivy flips scum they're probably not buddies though, from the 2087 on interaction.

[Aureal]

Is she? I thought she tended to be rather disengaged as scum. I know she had a good game partnered with Black but thought that was an exception. I'd like to see more of her over time, see if her energy keeps up.

Oh, if the recruit needs an actual person doing it, should be me.

Aureal Recruits Abnegation

[Aureal]

hi! i rolecopped ircher and got "voidfiend vigilante."

Guess you were redirected then?

[Aureal]

Also

HELLO FOOLISH MORTAL

fellow mason! WELCOME TO THE

HAUNTED MANSION

mason fortress!

[Aureal]

Well, I just got the chance to look at the actual game. WTF are these dreams trying to do, telling on you like that?!

Let's figure out how to handle KK being scum. Guess we should wait for her to post, see if she does the emotes or not, so we know whether she was tipped off about it or not.

Since she's scum, sheep ought to be not a partner for voting her to receive the invention, unless you two think there might have been pressure to do so? I don't have all the context so you'll be better judges.

[Aureal]

Oh, Titus was in there and was Evil Dreams. So they can be expected to know about that stuff, unless she was inactive over the night. Everyone else in there is likely not partnered with Kirigiri. Who could be cult rather than Evil Dreams. It's probably not multiball from the kills, so there probably is a cult like last game.

[Aureal]

Hmmmmm. If KK posts the emoticons we'll have to out to dispute her masonhood. And by we I mean Rat. Especially after the tattletale dream decided to be mischievous! Are we going to be doing this right away after she posts (which I'm guessing will probably be a while since they probably figure she's doomed)? Or should we toy with scum a while, think maybe they got away without masons knowing what's up?

I kinda want to come in voting Kirigiri. But I guess there's no real point in it, we've got plenty to support masonry if somehow people don't believe Rat, I don't need to pre-emptively suggest I could be. Sigh. Guess I'll go back to my joke plan.

is it alright if i mention the drew/python thing and clear python off it?

Eh... Probably best to hold onto it? Python's not going to be at any risk of being voted. Maybe they'll try to kill Python again next time if they think people don't know who was targeted and I can block it.

[Aureal]

I'll save my Insane Clown joke for maybe another day, I guess. I assume we'll be pushing to yeet KK so it'll probably be pretty obvious that it's because she failed the invention test. So nobody will continue onward thinking maybe I'm bulletproof.

It's interesting that Titus also had a Traitor Cop shot. And it's apparently specific to her, not a factional ability like ours was, so the others might still have shots of it. I'm thinking there's probably a Mafia Traitor too then, rather than it just being to specifically find Abnegation's role. That would be kind of a crazy setup, they think they find their traitor but instead really it was a mason! (Although I guess recruiting would be via a kill action so it still doesn't work out too badly for them I guess???)

[Aureal]

Kyoko Kirigiri's proposal: [Doctor Drew, usesPython, Abnegation, Aureal, camelCasedSnivy, Save the Dragons, Radical Rat]

So, do we think she'd actually propose a nightmare without an ally in it? Seems unlikely to me. Which seems to mean Snivy and/or Save the Dragons would be teammates.

[Aureal]

Yeah, I almost posted a "why the hell are there two town traffic analysts?!?" comment in the game thread but I figured it'd just bring up discussion of masons, and we don't really need that.

[Aureal]

Hmmm, speaking of cult, actually I guess it's also possible KK was town who got recruited in the night, since the invention awards after night actions? So looking too hard for scum in her proposal at this point might be premature. We'll have to see the flip to know.

[Aureal]

Actually now I'm feeling it's more likely she's cult, looking at the top of page 77. Do scumbuddies really both come out back-to-back to shade Snivy there?

[Aureal]

That could very well be. I had a scum game from long long ago where my partner intentionally voted the D1 hammered person after the hammer, triggering literally everyone to vote the poor guy before the flip.

It's even funnier because he had suspected we were the scum team and literally everyone thought he was so sus they extra-voted him like that. XD

Also the one other instance I can think of where someone voted after the hammer was also scum, "making sure" there was enough votes with deadline about to strike.

[Aureal]

What a weird way to approach it. She's actually acting like she got it, but not the post instructions. Are we suuuuuure scum wouldn't be notified of receiving it?

[Aureal]

viewtopic.php?p=13826199#p13826199

Yeah I feel like "won't be informed what they were given" means they do get informed they were given something. Korina says similar to how the fn action works, not exactly like it.

[Aureal]

And "similar" implies not quite the same.

I am seriously wondering if Python got culted though. They're being kind of obtuse.

[Aureal]

KK is trying to use her response to the 1 or 3 question in her favor, wtf?

Ohhhh I think she's trying to indicate masonry of 1. But question was number of partners. Maybe she is aligned with Titus and this is the best they could come up with to respond, hope there's no masons in the know or we'll believe it got redirected.

[Aureal]

I swear, if Python is cult leader posting this...

[Aureal]

If KK is a cult recruit that should mostly rule the idea out, they shouldn't want to recruit someone who's going to get caught out by masons right away. Unless it was a calculated risk that there weren't masons and so the recruit is going to fly through as a clear.

[Aureal]

I guess there's not too much point worry about it, what I said before about Python being a nightkill target holds. Which they already seem to have been.

[Aureal]

Could maybe give the FN out and then have people declare whether they got an invention? If it goes to scum without an inside partner, they'll get caught out because they won't know they got it. Not foolproof, but if Mafia are in the nightmare they probably shoot sheep to stop the cop from being used, so that isn't foolproof either. They even have two nights to shoot him before he can have results.

[Aureal]

Cult is probably named the same as the other game. Our roles were Voidfiend previously, setup is seeming just tweaked slightly so far rather than completely different. My role is same, Rat is vig instead of cop, and we gained your role.

[Aureal]

Python would be a strong recruitment target for cult, since Ranger is immune until her reveal, and I'm PROBABLY immune by being a mason. So he should definitely be checked later if he doesn't die first.

I feel like recruiting someone who's almost certainly going to get nightkilled would be suboptimal?

[Aureal]

No idea, or why they felt like telling everyone.

[Aureal]

Should we maybe try to convince them to do a minimum nightmare next time with core town and out the masonry there? You two, Ranger, Python, sheep (assuming you're all still alive)? It'd be sad if sheep got the cop and used it on one of us, and constantly leaving me out is just another opportunity for scum to get in so it'd be nice if Ranger would stop opposing it.

[Aureal]

BTW I noticed that the liminal space last game gets a factional kill when they have a recruit. So that's also something to consider, I didn't realize it would be able to do something other than recruit.

[Aureal]

Or maybe Ranger will just notice that KKFC's mutual townread analysis had us three grouped together and realize what that means

or notice my obvious softing.
"WhAt If YoU tWo ArE sCuMpArTnErS???"

Hahaha yeah it's going to be pretty easy for someone who wants to investigate the matter to link us together. If that doesn't seem to be happening, maybe scum really just is the more disengaged players...

[Aureal]

So there actually might only be one Mafia left now, plus a traitor who may or may not count? 3+1 plus a cult that gains NK with a recruit seems like about the right amount for a 19p?

[Aureal]

Uh, sheep's already in that group of five? If you get killed I guess I can try to get more pushy about being in the nightmare and claim if need be to be the fifth there. If one of the others dies, maybe you guys can be more pushy about it to get me in? Say it offers possibly useful information to rotate different people besides the towncore in at times or something? There's no need for Ranger to always get her way in leaving me out, she already did the claim thing.

[Aureal]

If sheep's getting the cop, I guess I should use my other doc shot on him here.

Sad thing is though, we can't really get any info from lack of kills.

[Aureal]

Didn't you just suggest we could tree stump him if he gets killed the second night? Dunno if he'd have results or not, I think some mods give results to players who are getting killed the same night and some don't.

[Aureal]

I'm browsing roles and found augmentor which seems likely to be Python's role, if what they're saying about Drew protecting two targets is true. I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I don't think Python is clear of being Mafia for being the NK target (I can't see that conversation, can you look back at it, might've just been about Python giving the augment and not Drew deciding to target Python?). But I'm not sure why Python tells everyone that Drew targeted two people after Ranger cleared Python due to thinking Drew protected them.

Okay, well, I guess I can think of why- they feel strongly positioned enough and don't want to be tooooo cleared or else people will wonder why they haven't been killed. Or will actually be killed by opposing scum (could still happen if they're Mafia and cult gains a NK like last game).

I'm still just really sus of the way Python handled KK. I mean really, asking "1 or 3+?" And KK responds in under 4 minutes. It took me a lot longer than 4 minutes to figure out what Python's implied question was! (okay, I'm probably biased by knowing what it was supposed to be) And the question's suggested answers don't even match up with the actual question, which was supposed to be number of partners. 1 obviously makes no sense as a number of mason partners. It makes me feel like Python was trying to lead her to answers that would make her look like a fresh mason in a game with no other masons. KK posting without following the instructions about pictures there could have several different meanings. She could've posted in thread without checking mason chat to see she was supposed to do something, or she could've had mason partners who weren't in the nightmare and had no idea to tell her to say anything, in addition to her just being alone, or being scum faking it. Python going right to that question makes it feel like they knew it wasn't the first two. On top of obliviously forcing Rat to clearly claim.

[Aureal]

Anyway, what I actually started looking at roles for was trying to figure out ways the rolecop could've gone to Rat instead. And apparently there's quite a few.

• Redirector targeted Abnegation. Do they choose the target to redirect to? I'm assuming so,
  and the choice of Rat seems more likely scum-motivated, since it feels like only a protective action would be useful there. Apparently redirecting onto confirmed town is common scum strategy. This wouldn't say anything about Ircher's alignment.
  Wait I forgot Rat claimed Miller, lol. I suppose it's possible scum would forget too, but doesn't seem nearly as likely since they wouldn't know it wasn't true. This could still be scum hoping Abnegation is an investigative and directing her at Rat to make the investigation useless though, and maybe even a fake guilty on whoever she targeted depending on how the results are given ("A Horrible Dream" as a cop result seems likely rather than "Radical Rat is A Horrible Dream" and would make her think Ircher is scum when he's not- or at least not redirector's team- and that's really bad for town). So yeah, redirector probably scum and Ircher not their team.
  
• Deflector targeted Ircher. Self-deflection might be possible? Still seems scum-motivated. Does town normally just use these abilities on night one at random? Who the hell would deflector Ircher other than Ircher or buddy? This seems to indicate Ircher would be scum.
  
• Bus Driver swapped Rat and Ircher.
  This doesn't seem to indicate much about the user's alignment or Ircher's.
  Town might think Rat was town and at risk of being killed and try to target Ircher with the NK instead.
  Scum might be using it as a redirect to have investigatives look at Rat instead of Ircher.
  Darnit, Rat! Okay a possible Bus Driver is probably town trying to protect Rat then.
  
• Banker with town rolecop in the setup makes my head hurt. I feel like that's not going to be a thing.
  
• Interceptor would mean Ircher has this role and targeted Abnegation with it. Seems like it'd probably be a town role, but also doesn't seem likely to be what's going on.
  
• Lightning Rod obviously not in play since Rat's vig went through properly.
  
• Nexus is possible and says nothing about anything other than that Ircher is a Nexus.
  
• Paladin would be Ircher targeting Rat which probably makes Ircher town trying to take NK? If he's somehow checked out enough of the game to know Rat is a likely NK target, which seems a little dubious.
  
• Sidekick (decoy) seems even more unlikely, can't think of why Ircher would try to redirect non-kill actions on Rat to himself. I think my brain might be melting though, this role just seems negative utility?

Oh Python could be a Motivator too I guess.

[Aureal]

Oh and the comment about Drew protecting two people came right when Rat was pressing that KK was scum too. Trying to imply that KK was likely protected by Drew I suppose? Which she may well have been, but obviously she wasn't the one being targeted for the kill if Drew actually protected two people.

Maybe we should pin Python down on this, find out what exactly they mean about what they did to Drew's action, and then treestump Drew to see who he targeted? There probably wasn't redirection going on here since Abnegation got it N1, unless there's multiple redirecting roles which seems like pure chaos and really hard to manage.

[Aureal]

I think it's a pretty safe bet that Drew would have targeted Python/Kirigiri, and I'm comfortable with assuming scum didn't try to kill their designated last survivor, therefore Python is 100% certified Not Mafia

Okay so you think the banter is Drew softing that he was going to protect Python? I don't think there's any way of knowing who an additional target would be without knowing what Python meant by that. Python might have picked the second target. Actually, Python probably did pick the second target - Direct Motivator seems the most likely explanation here. I'm not even entirely sure Augmentor is relevant upon re-reading, the article is pretty poorly written but I think it makes the target do a specific action to their target like cop check, not give them a second target for whatever their own action is.

Maybe Python picks up that Drew is going to protect them and has Drew target KK also, but Mafia sure don't know Titus is going to get killed trying to make the NK. Who could have predicted Elite Bodyguard? I guess it doesn't make sense for Python to be Mafia though because they'd have to have been targeted with the NK? That'd be some crazy galaxy brain play "Drew is going to protect me so we'll have Titus NK me but I'll be protected from it and thus be cleared"???

But wait, Python didn't know the NK would resolve before the BP invention so why would they pick KK as an additional protection target if they think Drew is a protective? Uuuuuugh I'm so confused.

[Aureal]

If Drew picked a second target of KK that would imply he really just didn't pay attention to the mechanics conversation that somehow wrongly decided the BP would protect the recipient from a simultaneous kill, lol.

Did Drew's question about feedback come before he started softing Python as target? That would explain him deciding to protect Python. It's a little weirder if Python uses a presumed day ability to motivate Drew then Drew likewise decides to target Python without knowing it.

Meh. I need to just stop thinking about this.

[Aureal]

Ehh, you could maybe save the rolecop until there's fewer people left and we maybe know more about the redirecting? I think you're not too likely a NK anymore, especially if there's scum in this nightmare.

Maybe the fridge is just unreliable this time, lol.

[Aureal]

Oh you think the fridge might have been targeted at someone else and redirected at Rat as well as your rolecop? That sounds even more complicated.

[Aureal]

OK, Ircher probably not self deflector, unless nobody told him Rat claimed Miller. So I'm leaning to that redirection being scum redirector or town bus driver, which has positive implications for Ircher's alignment.

[Aureal]

OK, I looked at the previous fridge role and it seems likely it's just not Inverse this time, which could indicate it's in town hands now. We'll have to see what sort of things they do with it to try to figure out. It's hard to see town using it on Rat there, yeah, so if the fridge is town it was probably targeted at Ircher and a bus driver switched them.

Yeah actually that makes a lot of sense. We know you were redirected to Rat so someone else with an investigation ability also being redirected there seems pretty likely. And Ircher's scum team wouldn't want to redirect investigations at someone they thought was a Miller.

[Aureal]

Maybe STD is bus driver, he voted Ircher?

Hang on, there's something about giving feedback in Titus's role. Do you guys think it could be what Drew mentioned?

[Aureal]

And if STD is town that gets back to Snivy likely being Mafia, for Kyoko's proposal not having other possible scum. And top of page 77 like I mentioned before. Do both KK and Titus both shade the same townie there, when both other possible wagons are town, or is it distancing? I feel more likely the latter. The wagon was already getting pushback from me so they probably didn't feel it toooo likely to go through.

[Aureal]

I have no idea, you're the one who can see it. I just know feedback was mentioned and that seems kinda random to me!