Mini Normal 1839 - Dead/Spectator PT

[Thor665]

I think it's unethical for a more fundamental reason. Scum shot me, that was a choice. Or town lynched me, that's a choice. It's important not to undo that choice.

Amen to that.
Had it happen once in a game a few years ago and it was unamusing.

If karnos is scum he is going to go a lot further, but right now i don't think he is.

Probably Lowell/Saru?
Doubtful its Nero Cain, Mathblade, or bji

I will say, that thus far, barring PRs, my scum lynch has always resulted in an incorrect association based lynch afterwards.
I'm pretty good at leaving bad connection information for people because I talk so much and am very free with opinions as scum.

I do think town is trying hard to help out the scum team in this game at the moment.

[Thor665]

I think Penguin and Nero probably have a bit of dancing to do to avoid a noose tomorrow also.
There are actually a lot of scumspects and not a lot of clarity of reads, so it makes it interesting as to who might topple into the gears, that's for sure.

[Thor665]

You say that, I'm less sure - might depend on the NKs, but Penguin straight up defended me and then reversed in a way that could make a case on him. He's also always struck me as pretty lynchable...albeit I generally lead that charge, so maybe he's not as lynchable without me? Guess we'll see.

Only thing I feel for my scumbuddies for is a bit too much of a drove of kills.
I generally agree with their choice today as long as they do a specific one tomorrow night though.

[Thor665]

Not a bad kill overall, as the claim would be out there for clearing after FA's death, and I don't think Aron had much suspicion on him.
Curious to see how this day plays out - if my team manages a mislynch today then I think town is probably doomed.

[Thor665]

Yeah, something is wonky there.
Frankly, just reading the posts today makes me never want to play with Iron ever again - he is being directly offensive and rude with almost no basis.
Dude, I wasn't lynched because there wasn't a case on me, scum buddies avoided hard bussing, and I claimed in a way to make it hard to get a lynch. You're basically complaining that scum played well and that you didn't functionally communicate a case and blaming everyone else for...I'm not even sure what.
Weird and unpleasant.

Intereting to see some of town's theorizing here - lots of people are spouting off opinions without a lot of votes being placed - no one is as confident as they sound, including Iron who is doing the same.

I think everyone's fishing a bit trying to sound out feelings and maybe trigger a slip.

[Thor665]

Pretty much I feel like the first player in Lowell, Saru, Nero to say something really daft is probably going to get lynched.

[Thor665]

Unfortunate for the scum team, who will benefit from abrasive players distracting and tearing up the game, sure.
Fortunate in a 'why are you doing this in a game?' way though
Frankly, if you're actually that angry in a game you should replace out.
And if you're faking being that angry as a strategy you should learn to play better.
My take.

[Thor665]

Meh, I'd rather no lynch than lynch someone I think is town - when town starts voting for town reads, town is playing badly in my opinion. I get the theory 'but what if my reads are wrong' concept but, you need to have faith in your reads or else you should play with a RNG to dictate all your votes.

Feel bad for Math beating himself up for that stuff with Titus when Math was the only town player parsing that a Gunsmith guilty *isn't* the same as a scum investigation. Sweet mercy lad, you were the one playing it right even if Titus was correct and you were wrong in your scum reads - that part doesn't change that Titus was using moon logic. Broken clocks and all that.

[Thor665]

Fascinating that people keep listing Karnos and Bji as potential scumbuddies to me and no real issues with Penguin.
Evidence #215,827 that bussing is a gakky strategy nowadays with no point.
In case anyone still didn't buy into my theories on that.

Of course I do see some people not thinking it was bussing or distancing, so that's a potential off put.
We'll see - day is still in a lot of flux at the moment.

[Thor665]

I note that your last comment was remarkably in line with my advanced concept.
So, yes, i agree.

[Thor665]

Never ever bus in role madness. Too many 'lol wut' PR reveals can ruin any plan.
Mountainous? Yeah, okay. But Role Madness? Never in a million.

[Thor665]

Aaaaaand we're back to Iron throwing a temper tantrum.

[Thor665]

lol if they lynch Karnos

I'll agree that it seems like a weak case theory.

[Thor665]

Lot of Penguin pressure right now.
I think he's choosing the wrong tack for his defense - he's buying in too much to the theory 'scum killed Aron because a scum was neighborized' concept.

Scum could have a Rolecop.
Scum could have killed Aron for some other reason entirely.

Bad defense tack - the case is weak.

[Thor665]

Honestly the level of play on MS is so low that by day 4 you should flat out lynch anyone who appears competent and hasn't been shot.

Conversely, I'm actually becoming a strong advocate of hardcore lurker lynching - I'vehad multiple games with multiple scum taking advantage of general town lackadaisical malaise of late.

If scum was going to kill me because they were neighborized, then the only option could be pp

Agreed.
But is the only option for your death that scum was neighborized? (hint: it isn't - and that's the logical fallacy of both the attack and the defense).

Like Nero Cain and Lowell are starting to look like decent players. These were people that would cause audible groans when they signed up for games. Fire Assassin is downright a genius by the standards of a 2016 join date. I mean he's not bad overall, but I'd guess he's an alt just because he doesn't suck like a black hole on steroids.

I think both Nero and to a lesser extent Lowell (when he's not hard lurking) have become better due to time rather than a lowering of expectations.
To a certain extent, players who love the game, participate, and play multiple times, are going to get better regardless of their generalized playstyle unless they somehow care enough to keep playing yet refuse to learn.

I do think the aggression and lack of cooperation thing is a new site meta trend, that I agree I find strange.
I still kind of want to make an alt who will just be unfailingly cooperative and polite just to see how it would be treated.

[Thor665]

I hate building cases, it's tedious and I feel like I'm doing the work that other people should be doing,

...bwuh?

[Thor665]

I'll also say, he could have summed up his cases in like two sentences.
The Saru one is "called Thor scum, then voted a guy voting Thor - lack of logic in reads = scum" that's the case.

I actually kind of agree with him about wall cases being silly, but it's mostly because I think any case that can't be described in 1-3 sentences is probably just paranoia or made up scum gak.

[Thor665]

I feel you on that Grey, but I disagree.
I find *more* offensive players nowadays then back them.
Not as in being offensive to a higher level (seriously, who can compete with some of the classics) but as in more people are doing it.
I think back in the day we had a few rage-derps, but overall people were less rude, and also (and this one is important) most of the rage-derps still played the game pretty well.

Nowadays it feels like you have players calling you a Smurf-sucking Smurf-face when you point out they're lurking and not playing the game. Or they blow up when you disagree with their Day 1 reads and they spend the rest of the game spewing filth rather than scumhunting.

I am highly unamused by it.
Maybe my skin got thinner...?
But I don't think so - I think it's rudeness paired with not seeming to care about the game.

[Thor665]

Oooooh, looks like Thor's history of reading what wagons are possible (incidentally one of the most useful skills to have as scum in my opinion) might be validated again with the Penguin lynch happening.

Math as IC was a bollocks of a whang for scum though, assuredly.

Still a lot of heat on Karnos and Nero though.
Really surprised by Karnos hate...well, not exactly, there's a reason I targeted him for a lynch Day 1, just surprised it's still there after I spent all of a day voting him.
Bit funny that Saru says I was on him 24/7 though - I did kind of spend an entire day phase hugging that Bji wagon last I checked.

[Thor665]

Maybe you're wrong?
There is a valid buddy case energy between us, and it's definitely hooking some folks.

[Thor665]

I can't explain the Karnos push though - so you've got me there

[Thor665]

He seems nice

I'll put the answer in a spoiler because I loathe spoiled Dead QTs as I think they lead to a lot of pooh-poohing of the active players, but, sure;

Spoiler: Is Saru my bestest scumbuds?

Nah, I was just buddying him to set up that illusion and to hopefully push through the Karnos lynch.

[Thor665]

I think Nero is doing some decent defense work with Bji.
The case on Nero is pretty thin - though he should understand that the difference is what the people flipped, so it's not a *bad* case really, just a thin one.

[Thor665]

Is it just me or are all of Karnos' reads almost a direct inversion absed off how much someone has called him scummy.
I don't recall him doing that the last time I saw him as town, I'm hoping it's coincidence - but if not he needs to work on that habit asap.

[Thor665]

Eh, this isn't hand grenades or horeshoes What matters, generally speaking, is your top scumspect, and *maybe* the second, but also what order you would follow, and how the flips would change it.

[Thor665]

I actually am really pleased to see some town cooperation and discussion finally happening in thread.
Needless to say it involves players with an older join date (he said, unapologetically...ageist...?)

[Thor665]

Holy buckets, Karnos actually started engaging his brain for the first time this game.
Karnos - *this* is how you're supposed to play all the time. I've seen you do it before, why don't you do it all the time?
It's beautiful.

[Thor665]

Actually like Math's recent shift - I like Lowell as a person, but dear gawd what an offensive sack o' lurk he is. He should never do that again, or join only one game at a time.

[Thor665]

You don't play with Lowell often do you?

No, I don't - if he always plays like this I hope to continue that trend.
He is lurking too much - he signed up for the game, he should play the game. I fhe only has time to post once every 4 days or so, that's fine - join games that indicate that is okay in the rules.

[Thor665]

One of the scum is needlessly fretting about activity in PTs.
There is also a bit of bus talk afoot.

In a grand shock to no one they are currently choosing to kill Math.

[Thor665]

2/2 4 player generally equates to a scum win - both scum just refuse to bus or vote 'no lynch' and then kill town.
Unless town has a killing role - scum will win automatically (which is the purpose of the 'or nothing can prevent this from happening) clause in most scum wincons.

[Thor665]

If I'd gone with a different claim (or no claim at near deadline, actually) it...*might*...have?
I dunno, there was a lot of heat on my slot from my predecessor.
Funny, considering how Lowell is lurking through the game, but...whatevs

[Thor665]

Lurking is toxic too, though.
And if you have a legit real life issue - I think you should just replace out.

[Thor665]

How did they end up lynching Nero Cain?

My brain

I'm not entirely clear on the case pressed against him myself - it seems to have been a claim that he was protecting me and avoiding voting me on the Day I wasn't lynched. There are a number of players who did that though, so I'm not sure why Nero was the chosen one amongst them, but that appears to be the core of the case (there is some super vague 'he makes sense for more scumteams' additional babble, but it didn't appear to amount to anything).

[Thor665]

Man, that's almost insulting to town - Bodyguard is already one of the single worst PRs in the game, then you give them double Bodyguards?
Poor bastards.

[Thor665]

At least the IC is a semi-consolation, and also landed on a mislynchable slot, so there's that salve.

[Thor665]

I still have no idea why you were so strong on that - was it really just the real mild defense of me? Penguin was functionally more guilty of that, and Lowell equally culpable. What pushed Nero so hardcore over the edge for you? Conf. bias?

[Thor665]

Clearly I should take vacations longer than 24 hours if I want to see the game moving forward whilst I'm gone
In their defense, there is a lot of waiting for Lowell responses, so...yeah, that should take a while

[Thor665]

We did all right, methinks.
We didn't have the best cohesion in a grand scale, but at least we weren't hating on each other.

[Thor665]

drink some whiskey and man the Smurf up

People say that sort of thing as an answer to that issue, but I'm not sure it jives. If this was a job I would assuredly agree with you.
But this is a game - which means my intention when I play it is to enjoy it.
If I find the people I'm playing with objectionable, then it behooves me to find different people to play with.
Sure, I could "man up" and "grit down" and "tough through" the GAME.

But...whaaaa? Nah, that doesn't make sense methinks.
I might do it for that specific session, but after that, if I played with those people again, it would be stupid of me.
Annoying dicks aren't who you hang out with for fun unless you have a strange definition of fun.

Nero being an experienced player, I expected him to realize that lynching you would have been a better play than no lynching, so I really had a grudge against him for that. I guess you could say it was a hate lynch, nothing was going to town clear him FMPOV for how poorly I thought he was playing.

So, yeah, conf. bias.
I actually advocate (and have done) refusal to lynch moments.
I have seen towns shred due to lack of a lynch, but I have assuredly also seen them shred due to town voting town reads. I don't think either play is somehow 'more pro town' than the other, personally.

[Thor665]

Sorry to hear you don't like playing with me, I am just me, not trying to be toxic but if that's your impression of me then yea, I would agree it's probably in your best interest to stop playing games I sign up for because it sounds like some masochistic act you put yourself through.

I totally agree, except I feel like you're arguing pro-masochism and I'm arguing against it.
But, yes, that's assuredly my plan - I'm not claiming you're not being 'you' in any way, shape, or form though. So don't feel like I'm calling you fake, I never intended for that to be a perception from you.

[Thor665]

The entire premise of the game is based on the idea that you can figure out scummy actions.
Whether you do that by "evidence" or by "tone" or "the feels" or flipping a coin, is basically immaterial.
It's perfectly viable to have faith in your method, to have distrust in other people's methods, and to disagree - indeed, sorting through that disagreement to seek the truth is, at the end of the day, what I think most people like about the game.

I don't think deciding someone's methods if, proven wrong in a very limited assessment (and in a game where percentages of accuracy should really be weighed against random chance, thereby making most playstyles at least meet baseline acceptability as long as info is being presented, they post and provide thoughts in a timely manner, and are otherwise not inherently displeasurable to be around) and then demanding they give up their methods and meeting resistance qualifies the 'wrong' person as a bad player.
You might be able to make an argument for unoptimal with a large enough source data set though. I suspect it wouldn't bear much fruit though.

I don't think Nero ever genuinely thought I was town on the day I was lynched - my perception was that he was trying to mine me for info. Many would argue that this was 'optimal play' in trying to lull scum into a situation where more info could be mined. There was never a point where he seemed to be attempting to steer the lynch anywhere other than me, and he assuredly kept the focus of his conversation on me.

Also, even if I'm wrong in that take, and he was utterly hoodwinked by me, and was playing badly - one would note that your own comments about being fooled by a different scum player, and writing that player off, and not pressuring or hunting them at all, is an equally "bad" play decision.

Just as there are different scumhunting styles, there are different scum. If Nero and Penguin are more susceptible to my scum playstyle, and you can see through it, whereas you are more susceptible to a different scum style that someone else can see through, does very little to prove or disprove someone as a "good" player compared to another. Functionally that argument would simply be that you each have areas you play better and worse at - which is probably pretty normal.

[Thor665]

I kind of feel you addressed the argument for me that you asked me to defend.
There were two competing wagons.
Both were on scum.

You decry the failure of the other people to support your wagon of choice.
You don't really justify how you failed to lynch Bji scum.

Both sides dug in heels.
What helped scum was failure of town cooperation.

I'll happily agree that Penguin, Nero, and anyone else you care to name was part of that issue.
But so were you - so I think you might be a kettle who isn't noticing pot.

[Thor665]

I agree it would have taken less players moving to flip me than to flip Bji - doesn't actually change the point of the counter though unless your argument is that people should always take the easier route. Functionally if we take it down to the microcosm of just you - you flipping would have made each wagon the same size and thus equal effort for the rest of town.
I'll agree that multiple people didn't cooperate.

I don't get your 'buut you're scum, so it's easy for you to say stuff!' as, what is hard to say here exactly? I think the scum team played that day very well on multiple levels in a manner that tended to steer town towards losing. Scum played it well as a whole. Town played it poorly as a whole. I don't think one can point to a single scum as the best that day, just as I don't think town can point to a single worst. It's all matters of degree, and if Nero's lack of cooperation lolwtfomg terrible, then I would submit that you wear that same color shirt. Maybe a slightly less intense shade, if you wish to really argue that, but the same color nonetheless.

i actually don't think either of you played that worse or better than the other, both of you had good core concepts, but you both failed to communicate functionally with the other for an end result that damaged town.

[Thor665]

You are correct.

[Thor665]

Thor665 (5) - karnos, Fire Assassin, aronagrundy, bji, ironstove (L-1!)
MathBlade (1) - Lowell
Lowell (2) - Saru, MathBlade
bji (3) - Nero Cain, Thor665, PenguinPower


Wait, no you're not. 5-1 =4, 3+1 = 4.

Doesn't really matter.

[Thor665]

Also, if you're going to state that I'm a weak/bad player despite me pushing to lynch you since D1, what does that imply about your scum play if a player you accuse of being bad is able to identify that you're scum? : )))))

Stop being antagonistic - the only way I've called you bad is in your rude play.
As to this current conversation I'm saying I don't think the players you're calling bad are bad - and if they are bad then they're equally bad to you.
If you're not bad, neither are they, and vice versa.

[Thor665]

Good to know, I was about to claim amazing powers