STEVEN UNIVERSE: Beach Buddies Neighborhood

[Cerberus v666]

Hi friends!

[Cerberus v666]

So, first order of business: secret neighborhood, or do we tell the game we have it?

[Reasonably Rational]

Bookmark for hydra. Also, man, you people need to get active for reals. Xtom, how can I help you get into the game? Hopefully you read it during the night?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Xtoxm: Who do you think is Steven and why?

[Reasonably Rational]

Probably mastin with her whole "oh I have the worst role in the game boo hoo" opening when actually she has

the best role in the game

.

Not sure though i've only read like 5 pages in total.

Anyway, what's it to you? Are you a scumbo??

Actually, it's probably you cause you seem surprised I know Steven is here.

Actually, just curious why you'd think one of the two of us is Steven.

Basically, this is my role. I'm Steven's late neighbor. Wasn't actually expecting 3 people to be here.

Stevens late neighbor? I'm...pretty familiar with the show...umm...I have no idea who you're talking about...

Bins replace out post looks hugely town. Probably just gonna go with ISOs instead of a full read.

Anything in particular I should know about the game before I dive in?

Yes, I feel Bins/constantine slot is very likely to be town. NOt as likely to be town as ricastle, but likely.

Btw how many scum do we think (or know) there is?

No ideas at all. Only one kill per night, so hopefully there's only one scum team. So 5ish scum I'd think would be standard?.

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh duh I thought the game had 23 players originally for some reason. Yes, 4ish is default there.

Your role pm states....what about steven? It states x is steven, or that this neighborhood we're in includes steven? Does it indicate who else is in the neighborhood? And, it matters because if you're trying to crumb your identity to me somehow, I'm just letting you know I'm not understanding the hint..

Imo (my other head disagrees), Ricaatle is town. It because of dayvig (I generally view roles as neutral), but because of the way it was used. It's strictly superior to make that shot in the same post you made the locking vote on a mislynch in end game, and get your team a win a day phase earlier if town can't/doesn't manage to prevent the nk.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hmm. Let's wait to see what Mastin has to say when her V/LA is up to discuss this further. I'd like to have her conftown thing resolved before any discussion I wouldn't be comfortable having in the main thread occurs

[Drixx]

The only "Centipeedle" in the show is the first corrupted gem that Steven fights, which initially takes a humanoid form. Lore/Flavor would point strongly to Xtoxm being "monster" or "corrupt gem" and there's no reference I can find to any such thing as "Pet Centipeedle".

Should wait for Cerberus to weigh in.

[Cerberus v666]

The centipeedle claim is null on flavor. He is a monster, 100%, but the monsters are all corrupted gems, and this particular corrupted gem was accidentally freed from it's bubble by Steven, who befriends/tames it, and it then sacrificed itself to save him.

[Drixx]

Cerberus and I have talked, and we have a few pieces of at least weak evidence to believe that this is a weak masonry.

Therefore, we should keep this PT a secret. Neither of you should mention that it exists. If we have to out that there is a neighborhood, let us say so and we'll claim it's just us and Mastin.

@Xtoxm - There's enough reasons to believe you are probably town that we're going to trust you hesitantly. It would help if you fixed your slot's lack of contribution to the game.

Please both confirm that you will NOT reveal that this PT/Masonry exists in the main thread. If we are all indeed town, as Cerb and I believe is the most probable case, then keeping it secret is to our advantage.

[Cerberus v666]

Also, Mastin: Can you please put this game on your front burner for the day at least? Thanks.

[Drixx]

Once you both confirm you agree to assume for the moment that this is a masonry (you both know you can trust us ... it's you two that we have to sort to be 100% sure), I'm going to claim and vouch for Mastin.

I'm going to do it in a way that is a little bit deceptive, to avoid revealing this masonry, which is why I'm waiting for your responses. It's not strictly going to be a lie, but what I'm going to claim will be true in spirit but not precisely exactly how things went. I think you will both approve, and Cerb already approves of the approach I want to take.

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, Mastin, wanna claim, before TW reveals the rolecop results? In here, that is. So we can evaluate their claimed results against what you claim.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ugh. I missed you had responsed i here. in the future, would you mind responding in *here* before you go off on a posting binge in the main thread? Then at least I don't have to wonder if you actually read whatever we said. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

lol, responsed.

[Reasonably Rational]

Yep, sounds about right.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Deliberately left you on my list there xtoxm, but moved you to the bottom in case you die and I need something to point to to indicate the existence of this neighborhood.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hmm. I wish you had spoken up earlier. i was considering seeing if you were willing to claim Steven for the reason you stated, but Drixx and I decided we would be better off being straightforward rather than lying to town.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yeah, we've already taken steps to deflect people from Mastin, which sorta means you can't.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR when post a read list how town do you want me to call you?

Umm. Up to you. This head has no opinion. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

*sigh*

So much lost potential this game.

It's kinda deja vu, even. (Though hopefully, Xtoxm's town rather than pulling a Mayan-Drixx.) So many ways we could have optimized the usage of this topic, and yet because none of us have been able to coordinate with the other, most of it's been lost. Xtoxm is our ace in the hole that way, but otherwise, yeah.

Indeed. We'll have to make do. As Drixx said earlier, the plan was to claim and thus confirm you...we'll see if we can manage to keep you alive without having to do so though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh. About TW...if we are treating this as a masonry, and I suppose I am...

Titus is an inventor(and has other powers too I guess, related toOn the first night she gave a 1 shot doctor to us. I don't see any reason for scum to have a doctor inventor in a game which has only had one death per night so far, or to give said invention to our slot, unless the sole purpose of the invention was to make us believe their slot is town, by the same logic I have thus employed to arrive at the conclusion that TW is almost certainly town.

So yeah. TW is town, unless Varsoon gave them a useless power just so they could use it to convince town that there's no way that power came from scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

"Reasons to believe tw is town" I hope those reasons are in the thread. :p

[Reasonably Rational]

We decided to do it because TW already outed that we have a pt to talk in with mastin. Drixx is hoping to distract from that post(since said out was buried in a wall) with our claim coming right after.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Otherwise, yes, we weren't going to claim.

[Reasonably Rational]

Yeah. That was stupid. All I really have to say about it.

-Cerb

[Drixx]

Farside should be held accountable for helping Fro99er end the day early like that. This post I wanted to make got cut off by the thread lock:

Visitation of Farside by Fro99er that didn't result in a negative effect along with Farside helping Fro99er to self-hammer and shut down alliance discussions and such is SUPER scummy looking. Just in case we get killed and don't get to point that out later. It's possible/probable that the visit observed was scum to scum, as we know that roles exist in game that can give things to others. If Fro99er is scum and visited someone and they didn't die, and that someone just so happened to be the person who helped him end the day early, that person has some explaining to do.

~Drixx

[Cerberus v666]

No, the lynch is fine, but putting the votes to L-2 on a slot that was just caught AND has the ability to double vote himself...that was stupid.

[Cerberus v666]

Or scummy. I usually assume stupid, but ya know, it could be scummy.

Also, Mastin, the same thing applies to you as to Sonic: A case founded on bad logic isn't magically made a good case because the person you were suspicious of is, in fact guilty. Your logic was still bad, and you should still feel bad. If you don't feel bad, consider this: if there hadn't been a PR that caught him, then there is very little chance your case would have made fro99er get lynched, because it was that bad. And scum would have lived. Because your case was bad.

Alrighty, moving on. I have no idea who you guys should be joining up with. :-/

[Drixx]

Mastin ... your case against Fro99er was not logically sound. I'm sorry but you just got lucky. I'll let Cerberus explain why your logic was bad because I'll offend you if I do it in the blunt way that I would.

Also, once we see Fro99er's actual abilities, then that will determine whether Farside was just careless in putting Fro99er to L-2 or if she might be a scum buddy of Fro99er. If he can do anything beneficial at night, I'm going to be pretty hard to convince that Farside is town.

[Drixx]

Wow ... did Mastin scumslip there by saying that Fro99er role blocked Farside?

[Cerberus v666]

No, she didn't. In the post where farside voted frogger, farside said her ability didn't go off last night.

[Cerberus v666]

mastin. It does not matter that your mod meta was *right*
It matters that the argument is TERRIBLE.

Let's say you're playing poker. And you make a bad play. And you catch a runner-runner flush to take a hand you had no right to take.

That's what just happened here. The result does not make your play good.

Let's not talk about this anymore though, because you're clearly not going to understand, and will understand simply believe that being suspicious of the right person, for bad reasons, is good play.

[Cerberus v666]

*and will instead simply believe*

[Drixx]

Why did farside only reveal the roleblock when making the move that let scum end the day earlier and torpedo the alliance/fusion setups.

[Drixx]

Vezok has driven townies to their deaths based entirely on the assumption that the game can be broken by flavor and has otherwise contributed nothing to the game. His play this game has all the hallmarks of scum trying to appear integrally involved in the game without actually putting anything into the game that can be used to properly read him in ISO.

We also have no evidence that Farside was roleblocked. It strikes me as very odd that we only heard about that (she claimed she was told by the mod she was blocked, and there would be zero reason not to say that first thing at daystart) in the same post where she put Fro99er at L-2, allowing him to self-hammer and shut down the town from getting information from the rest of the time we had during the day AND will certainly result in the most important alliances/fusions in failing to happen.

[Drixx]

Hey Mastin ... what's up with you bringing up the SMITE game all the time? I think the odds of me pulling off the win given what I replaced into were like 1 in 10,000 or worse, and I did it. But every time you mention it, you make me feel like you think I just lucked my way through months and got a win undeserved and unearned. That makes me *sadface*.

[Drixx]

Erm ... All that ability means is that Farside is a gem, and there could be reasons for the scum team to want to use the ability that way. I mean ... you're already dismissing Farside as a potential scum suspect, even though you know the only way that Fro99er could have blocked her is if she's a gem, and you know that the enemies are gems. The entire series of events could be designed specifically to get Farside town cred.

[Drixx]

Assumptions lose town mafia games all the time. Pardon me if I want to pose the question "Why do you/I believe what you/I believe?" frequently. It's a useful way to remind oneself to make sure there are valid (or even better, SOUND) reasons for our beliefs.

[Drixx]

And questioning too much or too soon is how towns sometimes wander into terrible mislynches.

It's a long way from saying "I don't want to believe X player is conftown because I don't have all the information and the information I do have might lead me to a false conclusion" to

"I think I'm going to push X person as my primary scum target."


No matter what anyone thinks about Farside's alignment, she needs to answer for putting Fro99er at L-2, when it was repeatedly pointed out not to do it. That decision on her part could be the proximate cause of a town loss. We will be nowhere near optimal in forming the larger alliances/fusions possible for tomorrow because of that move.

To be fair, Varsoon waiting until

after

it was too late for us to discuss with each other in the game thread how we wanted to form up to post the actual mechanical instructions for how it works is kinda not cool. I suppose any group of 3 people who were in agreement can

maybe

meet the requirements ... but maybe not. In order to successfully get all 3 people into the fusion/alliance, a very specific sequence has to take place:

Player A lists Player B as 1st choice and Player C as 2nd choice
Player B lists Player A as 1st choice and Player C as 2nd choice
Player C lists Player A as 1st choice and Player B as 2nd choice

As far as I understand the rules, any variation from that exact ordering will result in a failure to create the larger alliances/fusions.

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm. Yeah, I think perhaps Drixx and I should just go with only TW for our alliance tonight. The last thing that was mentioned in the thread was Maxwell, and I'd prefer losing out on a third person over letting him into our discussion, assuming you're right of course Mastin. The risk, of course, is of scum shooting them and denying us an alliance(given that we declared we'd be allying with them), but I'm not especially worried about that.

Also, xtoxm: Can we get the rest of your claim here? I assume you do...something else besides just being in this alliance?

So, the biggest issue with our list of potential scum is that it includes the entirety of the slots that I expressed suspicion of in our PT with Fro99er, and he agreed with all the slots, except he had the constantine/bins slot in there as well. Now, I don't know if that's more indicative of him simply buddying up to us since it wasn't posted in the thread so he didn't have to worry about being held accountable to it, or if it was something he agreed to because it was completely/mostly wrong.

pedit: yeah, we know varsoon, but it's clearly suboptimal play to do so, unless we didn't have any other options. It' s much stronger for this to be a hub, as it were, of discussions, and we all interfaced with other parties.

Again, that's not your fault though, that's towns fault for being stupid and not listening to me about a mechanical risk(I might be wrong about alignments, but I'm usually not wrong about counting votes. )

Question: Has anyone seen grapes use their double vote since D1? I haven't noticed it, but I may have missed it.

[Cerberus v666]

It may be sub-optimal as far as reaching out to other players goes, but if you are concerned wholly with enabling the alliance/fusion powers of everyone in this thread, it is an option. I'm just reiterating it because it can be easy to think, "Oh, I am in a neighborhood with these players, so they're completely off the table as far as fusion and alliances go" when the reality is more along the case of "These are people I can -always- reliably fuse/ally with."

Fair enough. <3

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm. I'm going to have to ISO and sort Maxwell. TW gave an invention to him last night, so they're clearly town reading him, so it's safe to say that they're going to target him for our alliance.

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah, it has been. I should have just iso'd varsoon before I even asked that.

[Cerberus v666]

Umm. That's...weird. I would definitely expect you to do something more, given that the setup info states "others" are generally stronger roles initially. Is being part of a 3 person permanent neighborhood "strong" to you?

[Cerberus v666]

I mean, since that's the only descriptor in your role, it makes sense, sure. But it's weird.

Although flavor wise, if your only use would have been to shield me from claiming stuff, that is kinda awesome, since that's what the Centipeedle did. But...he also spewed very effective acid. So...

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, and to answer your question, I need to look at the game and talk to drixx. :-/

[Cerberus v666]

OH, I think I want to lynch Vezok btw. He's bad. His posts are bad. I'll elaborate before day start.

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm. That is a good point. Possibly. It isn't impossible, and depends on more information about the setup (basically everything) to determine if it would be reasonable/balanced. Both abilities shut off in lylo, so that concern doesn't exist.

My answer is I wouldn't dismiss him as a possibility because of that.

Also, conftownin farside off her acting yesterday is hasty.

She was the only person to respond to my call for unvoting and keeping people far away from lynch, so she obviously was aware of the risks of ending the day early just a few hours prior, and then proceeded to vote fro99er in spite of said knowledge.

I don't hold with Drixxs thought that a town farside would have definitely explicitly stated they had been informed their ability hadn't worked when their alliance target was wondering why they weren't in one, but that entire line *does* fit with a smart scum team putting some low risk posts in the thread to capitalize if it turned out they couldn't save fro99er today. As a matter of fact, if scum, on ANY day after this where fro99er flilled, farside gets town points because her fusion failing is explained.

I still feel her play is super town, but don't just dismiss her as possibly scum so easily.

[Cerberus v666]

Meh, never mind about vezok. I mean, Beer's role PM explicitly said he began in a PT with Sadie. I don't think anything in a role PM would be a lie/utilize someones fake claim, so vezok practically has to be town. I forgot about that, the start of my reread of maxwell reminded me.

[Cerberus v666]

Town

vezokpiraka - Sadie,almost definitely town by flavor, double voter
Reasonably Rational (Hydra; Drixx and Cerberus v666)
Mastin2: Connie, voteless outside alliances, in this PT.
Xtoxm Bookitty Fluminator: Centipeedle, in this PT, no other abilities.
Sonic X (Hydra; ZZZX & Metal Sonic) -Gladiate+watcher/ability copying
NicCage*: Pearl, watcher, caught Fro99er visiting farside

Town lean but need pressure and questions resolved.

St Constantine the Hermit Bins : Kevin, invader/shot removing ability
farside22 - Was a tree stump D1, stopped being a stump D2, claims to be targeted by fro99er's power.
Trench Warfare (Hydra; Titus & T S O) - lighthouse gem, invented a doc save to RR N1, rolecopped mastin N2. Also invented something to MaxwellPuckett N2. JOAT? Inventor, with a rolecop when in an alliance?
Ricastle: Greg, day-vig. Town by derpvig

-------Lynchable Line for D4--------

MaxwellPuckett
CooLDoG
grapes - Has two separate votes which may not both be placed on the same party(as of D1, perhaps while allied they could be joined or something)
Thefuzzylogic99 -Vague recall he said his claim could resolve questions about the mayors claim? Maybe that was someone else?

Do we have any information any of you recall about these last four slots? In terms of role/gem or not/flavor claim? I'll try to figure out maxwell at least

[Cerberus v666]

Also, I refuse to believe that we have POE'd our way down to the entire scum team right now. I mean, maybe we have, but I'm quite suspicious of deeper more complex play on the part of scum going on here.

[Drixx]

I think it's an incredibly bad idea to try and base assumptions on a game on flavor.

So Vezok is Sadie and started in a masonry and promptly (according to beer) lied his way to getting his masonry partner killed. Hrm... that seems town all right. As does all that cogent posting and scum hunting that vezok has done ... oh ... wait.

[Drixx]

Also invading fusions/alliances and wiping the powers in them is

totally

a town ability.

Who wants to bet with me on this ... and I'll give you 10:1 odds. The Hermit shows back up in our fusion/alliance again, larger this time, and zaps us all. I thought about suggesting we just do an alliance with you two but it doesn't mater ... he'll just target us, especially since we're outed as Steven.

The fact that he didn't zap us earlier when we know that TunnelWarriors was town is also weak evidence that TrenchWarfare might be scum. That inventor ability is pretty darned good for getting town cred, eh?

[Cerberus v666]

He claimed that he could use his power to remove all shots of the members of his alliance, while simultaneously removing himself from it.

[Cerberus v666]

Also, drixx, stop with the hyperbole. He did *not* lie his way to getting his masonry partner killed. He didn't mention that Beer had told him he had the hated modifier until a beer wagon seemed likely, which is a good time to say that...and it was mentioned almost two weeks before day end in their pt apparently, so beer could have certainly shared it with everyone if he wanted to. That's the closest thing to lying to get his partner killed that exists in the thread.

[Cerberus v666]

He is vezok in that case. Anyways, yes, vezok shouldn't be cleared on flavor alone, BUT it's stupid scum move to get his partner lynched like that...just doesn't make sense. In any case, vezok shouldn't be cleared, but he also shouldn't be at the top of our suspicion list.

[Cerberus v666]

Yes, but the way it was outed was incredibly town. Invading our pt was one thing, but there was NO reason to tell us their slot could remove all our powers. It was all played in a super survivalistic fashion.I'm inclined to believe that slot is third party, not scum, at worst.

[Drixx]

I believe you're wrong, but we've had that argument a dozen times already Cerb. Him using his power also dissolves the alliance as well. So if he's scum, whichever alliance he invades, he's going to get to take away the powers of 3 other people plus destroy their ability to talk together for the finale ... and the charges recharge BEFORE he would take that action, so those people would be without powers for days.

We can talk any time day or night, so it's safe to assume the scum team has the same privilege. Therefore, it doesn't make sense for scum to ally/fuse with scum when they can instead go out and ally/fuse with townies and maybe gather info on roles and try to get townies to town read them. Since it seems ridiculously more likely that scum would want to ally/fuse with town instead of one another, the invade alliance and wipe abilities role simply doesn't seem like a town role. It would be super unlikely, given the game's mechanics, for that role to ever zap more than one scum's powers.

Plus ... elephant in the room here ... if he were town and the scum knew he could potentially invade their alliance/fusion and zap their powers, why is he still alive?

You guys seem to think that I'm proposing people as additional scum to your reads. I'm not. I'm proposing alternative reads.

Maybe vezok is just bad. I mean, he was town in SMITE and was an absolute worthless lurksack in the main thread, never scumhunting or at all contributing to the game in any meaningful way. Perhaps he's just bad at mafia and I'm only just now realizing it in my 2nd game with him.

[Cerberus v666]

His power doesn't dissolve the alliance. He specifically said that in order to leave the alliance early, he would have to activate his power, and we'd still be able to talk without him there, but we wouldn't be able to do so AND keep from having him nuke the alliance.

He's still alive, btw, because scum aren't afraid of losing their shots. Either they doubt he'll pick well (math says he's more likely to hurt town than scum, and if he does hurt scum, he's most likely to hurt town at the same time, for the same reason you argued about why scum wouldn't be allying with each other) and also, perhals scum don't have limited shot powers that are at risk. Fro99er didn't.
Anyways, yeah, that argument is one we've had already. I haven't seen anything from vezok to think anything other than he's just bad (or may just not invested in the game ), so that might simply be the case.

[Cerberus v666]

Ugh I read like half of maxwells iso, then skimmed another quarter, then I just couldn't do it. So, from what I read...I...just don't know. He was on both the wagons on town, and not on the wagon on scum, and none of this votes/stances seemed particular strong, very sheepish. Not sure how I read that though in terms of alignment.

[Cerberus v666]

I'm still not sold on maxwell. I am sold on fuzzy though. ^^

[Reasonably Rational]

Hi guys! Let's go play the game!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Sorry xtoxm. It didn't make sense. Had to know.

-Cerb

[Drixx]

If we're public domain we might as well do something good with it. We can claim masons and if Cerb and I can get Titus to behave we can try to force scum to aim at one or the other of you while hopefully being able to also direct protection to you. We, as a hub, can be interacting with a LOT of alliances and should be dumping as much info in here as possible

[Drixx]

Mastin how come vezok is still in your scum zone?

Because I didn't get confirmation that I recall from flavor experts that there's absolutely no way Sadie could be scum, mainly.
Also, POE and lack of better suspects, really.

Apparently Varsoon has made 1st tier feature characters (who are good in the source flavor) be scum in prior games. Someone pointed out a game where the source flavor's main feature character was scum. While it certainly has to put us under some scrutiny to call attention to that fact, we will either be dead or mod confirmed town tomorrow, so no biggie there. But ... his willingness to do that means we can't just assume Vezok is town because Sadie would be considered "good" on the show.

I feel like this is all dissecting to neatly and easily via flavor, and that feels like a trap. Also ... a very broken game.

[Cerberus v666]

So our hood is public knowledge now?

TW is annoying.

Our hood isn't public knowledge. The abilities of each of you individually is. Nobody else knows that this all interacts to form a neighborhood with all three of us in it.

[Drixx]

Really don't like grapes and Sonic today...

[Cerberus v666]

That...is a lot of votes. He's claiming Amethyst? With an alliance limited roleblock with predetermined targeting restrictions, or a fusion limited double double vote? Hmm. That's...really interesting.

Also, why did you confirm in thread that our alliance lasts longer than a day? There's no evidence anywhere that it was more than just an alliance for one day to let us talk, except for what you just said.

[Cerberus v666]

Flavor says amethyst is 85%% town, another member of the crystal gems, but was apparently created by the bad guys before she joined the good guys.

Also, I asked Maxwell to claim in our PT at least, if he isn't willing to claim in the thread, so we'll see where that goes.

[Cerberus v666]

Yes, vezok/beer weren't masons, but it seems likely(though not necessarily guaranteed), that vezok knew with 100% certainty that beer was lars, which is almost as much of a flavor clear as being sadie is.

[Reasonably Rational]

Mastin, has grapes used her roleblock? Were there any limitations on number of shots? If she used it, who did she use it on and on what nights?

[Reasonably Rational]

Well yes. But she may not have been able to do it every day, so it's possible it's not always intended that way.

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm, how sure are you on the sonic town read there mastin? If fuzzy is town, it seems...bad to make him give his motivate to someone who can then copy it who has even the smallest chance of being scum.

[Cerberus v666]

Informative flip incoming. ^^

[Cerberus v666]

Gotta flavor yo, make it delicious.

[Cerberus v666]

Called it on the season finale strongman . Thanks Mastin for pointing out his scumminess.

[Cerberus v666]

xtoxm, mastin, are you both fully caught up at this point?

[Cerberus v666]

Cool. So, a thing I noticed, and I wanted your thoughts on it...I know you think of sonic as conftown..but...i can't get over the fact that when he used his gladiates...he didn't use the same wording for it. When TW used their rolecop, they posted the exact quote, with the targets name added to the end. The only part of Sonic's gladiates that is identical...is the part that came from Sonic the fucking hedgehog, and was purely added by him for lols.

So, the natural reaction to that is, okay, sure, but maybe he just has to post someones name in bold in a phrase that makes it clear he's targeting them?

Nope. He used the exact phrasing "Daykill: Ricastle"(Ithink it was ricastle), in bold, on D1, and nothing happened. That would have triggered his power if all it took was bolding and clear intent.

So. Thoughts?

[Cerberus v666]

Give me a minute, work stuff. And I need to find these quotes again, i thought I had put them in my hydra pt with drixx when I discussed this with him, but apparently I never did.

A point about the intent thing though: My conftown requires posting THE EXACT QUOTE. TW's power would seem to require the exact quote as well, given that it was used that way. And, as I said in the end there, if intent alone were enough, his daykill post would have sufficiently displayed intent to trigger said power.

[Cerberus v666]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6997872

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7051089

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p7060265

Locked thread, so I can't quote or else I would.

[Cerberus v666]

No, he has not. There is no proof in thread that he actually has a gladiate.

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah.

Scenarios:
1) He's lying about being a gladiator and hoping to bs his way to endgame
2) He's a real gladiator and intentionally posted incorrect activation phrases on previous attempts for some reason or other
3) He's real and unintentionally posted incorrect phrases due to derp

1) seems..unlikely. 2) & 3) are not scummy.

But yes we should have him use it for confirmation purposes.

You're missing the implication here though. If he's scum, he KNEW fro99er was ascetic. Maybe he is a real gladiator, and they simply thought the best thing to do with it was create a fake 1v1 with fake outrage at wasting a shot etc. Then, no matter who gets lynched (or even better, if it just gets read as being TvT, they have this omg super obvious town cred that you're both giving him. They either end up with a UNIVERSALLY TOWNREAD GLADIATOR (you know, basically a forced mislynch by them whenever they want), or an ascetic role blocker that will never be confirmed.

Going into endgame, ascetic is a terrible modifier to have, because you're going to get lynched...it's simply too risky and powerful a modifier..so, yeah.

I feel like sonic+fro99er team setting up the sonic slot for strong endgame presence is a very likely thing.

[Drixx]

I'm sorry but you're wrong Mastin.

First, we saw Ricastle had to use a specific phrase (taken from the show) to activate the cannon and do his daykill. Second, we (Steven) have an ability that requires an absolutely word for word specific phrase to be posted. There is probably more evidence in the flips for the necessity of using specific quotes to trigger abilities. What Sonic did included stuff that had nothing to do with the game's flavor, but instead with Sonic the Hedgehog flavor, and it changed each time. That is at least weak evidence that the 'Gladiate' was faked ... and fro99er ended up claiming ascetic as an excuse for why it didn't work, and you had what looked like a possible TvT fight.

The fact that you two have Sonic so firmly in the town pile despite no actual evidence of anything he has said being true reinforces my suspicion.

[Drixx]

Only took you 15 posts to forget your own words. *SMH*

[Cerberus v666]

Oh man. I just noticed this. Grapes and NicCage allied. Grapes claimed Amethyst, NicCage claimed Pearl, so they totally fused and made Opal!

Wonder if there was any mention of that when they fused.

[Cerberus v666]

What I have so far.

D2 Alliances

Reasonably Rational/Trench Warfare/Tunnel Warriors/Bins
Ricastle/NicCage
xtoxm/Grapes
Skybird/Maxwell
vezokpiraka/farside22
Sonic X (Hydra; Metal Sonic & ZZZX)/Marquis/Cheetory
Ra9in9 Bull (Hydra; fro99er & ika)*/CooLDoG

Unallied

Replace in radmann9
Mastin2
Thefuzzylogic99

D3 Alliances

Ricastle/TW
RR/Fro99er
vezokpiraka/farside22
Sonic/Mastin
Maxwell/Skybird
grapes/niccage


Unallied
xtoxm
cooldog
replace in

D4 Alliances

TW/Maxwell/RR
Vezok/farside
grapes/mastin

[Cerberus v666]

Hmm. There's one other major reason to be suspicious of sonic scum, but I need to confirm with Drixx that it's something we want to talk about right now.

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay, well...I kinda want to get this out there, but I don't want it in the thread yet, I want TW to keep talking without going into spam defense mode, but pretty much certain

TW has to be scum

. There's a number of things, but the biggest one to me is this:

RR, there's another benefit to having Fuzzy visit Sonic.

Shouldn't Sonic get his refiller?

After all since Sonic hasn't used his gladiate since the season finale, it wouldn't get another shot. Yet now, we would have the refill in the hands of unquestioned town.

So let me get this straight

Maxwell lynch today
Fuzzy + Sonic neighorize tonight
Sonic gladiates any scum suspect but Fuzzy after we decide who he gladiates tomorrow
Fuzzy refills Sonic

, and gives him refilled ability?

That's twice there that TW displays CERTAIN KNOWLEDGE of an ability which Sonic never mentioned in thread, and which we only know about because of what Mastin told us in here. I combed my history at least to make sure I never informed them of that power, and sonic absolutely never did, so that means Titus MUST have access to information town would not have, therefore Titus is scum.

Implications of TW's knowledge of Sonic's REASON for wanting people to target him:

1)

In the set [Mastin, xtoxm, sonic] there must be at least 1 scum

1a)Strongman activating on season finale(right before we could conftown) makes it highly unlikely that scum would be given knowledge of who we were right before they gained the ability to kill us.

Therefore, it is highly unlikely that Mastin or xtoxm are the scum, leaving Sonic.

2)TW has a private PT like this, with a member of the above set. That almost guarantees that said pt members are scum though, because town mastin/xtoxm should have certainly revealed the existence of the pt to conftown Steven...and said member is Sonic, for the reason giving above regarding why Mastin/xtoxm aren't scum.

3)TW's scum team has a role cop of their own, so perhaps there may be a 2nd scum team. This is supported by the second kill tonight, and TW's willingness to lynch members of the other team.

Other reasons TW is scum:

A town role cop already flipped, increasing the likelihood that the other role cop is scum. This is especially troubling given the displayed cognitive dissonance between their slots insistence that one of [Mastin/Xtoxm] must be scum given the counterclaim, when they themselves are the counterclaim to a KNOWN town flip.

They keep giving out their inventions to Sonic, and their doc save isn't the one they're sending. The titus head of that hydra is focused on building town blocks, using said blocks and PoE in combination with VCA to figure out the scum team in mid-late game. I find it unlikely that a town titus would want to give out weak investigatives(voyeur and tracker, respectively) rather than keep the people in their town bloc alive.

They were FURIOUS when we had them "waste" their rolecop on xtoxm. Again, as an exercise in building a town bloc, using a role cop on a slot that would either guarantee finding scum, OR cement someone as town, shouldn't have been something they were upset about. However, as scum, it's reasonable for them to be upset at basically learning nothing.

TL;DR:

TW MUST BE SCUM.

Sonic is *probably* scum, but if TW flips as a second scum team and/or their rolecop functions differently than expressed before(i.e. if it's not a public trigger/has no shot limitation), then they may have rolecopped Sonic themselves, clearing Sonic.

-Cerb

[Cerberus v666]

How is that a bad assumption? TW makes two separate statements. 1) that fuzzy will refill the gladiate(that's an assumption), and 2) that the refill ability WILL NOW BE GIVEN TO AND UNDER THE CONTROL OF TOWN.

Look at the first quote. The sentence after the one I bolded makes a clear distinction between refilling a shot, and giving sonic the refill ability.

So...TW KNEW about that power. Like, it's not something you can argue. There are very few ways for TW to have known about the power.

Also, please refrain from voting TW or anything until I post about this in the thread (which will be before sonic's "countdown" for the gladiate expires. If you can, xtoxm, try to engage with TW about other reads, specifically the ones you feel might be scum that they haven't been calling scum all game.

[Cerberus v666]

Yes, he did say that nobody targeted him any night until last night, I believe.

I know TW said they were going to invent to him though, and I'm not sure if that would trigger his ability or not. Kinda a grey area, but yeah, in regards to TW the problem is their knowledge of why he wanted to be targeted.

BTW, the reason I didn't say anything about this some days ago when I first noticed it was because the way she says it implies not just knowledge of what he does, but also knowledge that WE know it. The only way we learned it was from mastin in this PT, so that would mean one of the two of you must be scum who told her...

However, if she and sonic are scum together, it's reasonable for her to know what sonic told mastin, and for them to make the assumption that mastin told us.

So, yeah, I see two scenarios. Titus is scum in both. In one scenario, one of you guys is scum, and for some reason we were going to be fed to scum on a silver platter at the season finale, if we didn't manage to figure out what tunnel warriors power did and ally with him that night to be safe, and he lived that long. In the other, Sonic and Titus are scum together(but maybe not necessarily WITH Fro99er and Maxwell).

[Cerberus v666]

LOL at the way you did that. It'll be interesting to see how she reacts there, since you JUST said you didn't care about her VCA at all.

[Drixx]

Okay, so I want to post the logical chain of reasoning why we decided to trust you both, because we talked about it. A lot. (We've asked that our hydra PT be made accessible after the game for those interested in seeing how we operate. There's some grumpiness in it from me as I've been dealing with mouth pain and mouth pain is particularly difficult for me and makes me very ill tempered ... but apart from that, our hydra PT is a wonderful look into how we operate, and Cerb and I are very similar minded so it has worked well, although I'm sure my grouchiness has annoyed him).

1.) We were not able to conftown ourselves until day 5, the day after the season finale night.
2.) You two both were given our identity on day 3. This posed a dilemma for us, because we had planned to keep quiet about who we were and try to have traps set for scum to spring and then suddenly two people knew who we were and we didn't have knowledge at all about you two.
3.) This caused a lot of discussion, which only resolved with the flip of a strongman who could only strongman on the season finale.
4.) It doesn't make any sense for scum to be given our identity before we can conftown and be able to kill us before we can conftown when the only way we could have escaped would have been if A.) Tunnel Warriors was alive, B.) We trusted Tunnel Warriors, C.) We were allied to Tunnel Warriors and finally D.) Tunnel Warriors and we decided to use the commute. This is further reinforced by the fact that Fro99er could have kept us from allying since we count as a gem, which means even that far fetched scenario could not have saved us. Ergo, you two cannot logically be scum, or else Varsoon would be a super bastard mod since we would just get killed last night in 99 out of 100 runs of this game.

So ... you two are town, outside of super paranoia edge cases.

Please continue to keep a low profile but Titus just intervened in Cerb's hard questioning on Sonic, which I think is strong evidence of our theory of remaining scum. Since Titus was our most sure scum read and Titus is now intervening to try and stop hard questions going at Sonic, and Sonic just basically said "My role works differently than every other role in the game and I got to pick my own flavor for it too" as a defense ... are you guys with us yet?

[Reasonably Rational]

Do your role pms state that this alliance is ongoing?

[Reasonably Rational]

Ah. Enters a neighborhood. That is different phrasing. Bleh. I thought it was alliance or something less defined.

[Drixx]

So shouldn't Titus have seen you two as different roles, by her own argument, since you are not exactly the same? That was her defense for why there can be two town rolecops ... they weren't precisely the same. Neither are you two. More evidence for Titus is scum.

[Reasonably Rational]

^What Xtoxm said, only with mine being with the voteless modifier.

Thoughts on TW case above?

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay. What about the implications of the specific slip and the question of how exactly TW got the information they had about sonic?

[Drixx]

Mastin ... why would every ability that's activated, that we have so far seen actual proof of, been activated by a specific quote from the Steven Universe show ... but somehow Sonic gets to decide his own flavor and use a PM?

It's not because it has an impact on votes or who dies for the day, because Ricastle killed someone using a direct quote.

There isn't a logical explanation for it. I don't know why he would claim it or what the endgame is, but it simply doesn't fit.

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm not sure what the point of those posts was? Just trying to determine Xtoxm's scumminess, because you also don't see any way for TW to know what they knew without scum existing among yourself, xtoxm, and sonic, and you don't believe sonic is scum?

[Drixx]

By the way, Mastin; Titus is scum. She's scum for a reason I saw in that article you did on bussing that you updated recently.

During day 1 she asked us to ally with her so she could read us since she has had trouble reading both of us in the past. In that alliance there was not even anything resembling any test or questioning. She just assumed we were town. That's because she's scum and we're not on her team. We're holding that back along with other things that reinforce the case against her (and the corresponding case for Sonic being her source for knowing sonic's ability to steal/copy powers if someone visits him).

Her excuse will be that she read us as town during day 1, but nobody read us as town during day 1. We were intentionally scummy.

The thing from your article that really brings it home is that people playing as scum notice things as scum they wouldn't notice when they are town. They overestimate how good they are as town. Titus will be able to quote stuff we said in day 1 and say that's why she assumed we are town, but I learned from you that when someone picks up things they wouldn't normally, it can be a scum tell. Especially with Titus who always scum reads me, even if the rest of the game is screaming that I'm OTAF.

[Drixx]

It helped, Mastin, that I was already suspicious of Maxwell (I told him in our alliance with him that he needed to claim or I'd push for his lynch).

It doesn't help that you just dig in and refuse to even think outside of your narrow POV.

Unless this game is multiball, you are Xtoxm are both logically town. The logical chain is irrefutable, and I'll repeat it here. Please tell me what condition (outside of this game being multiball where you or xtoxm would not immediately tell the scum team who we were) invalidates this logic.

1.) We could not conftown ourselves until day 5. - This led us to try and walk the line to look scummy enough to be a "down the road" mislynch plan for scum so we could surprise conftown on day 5.
2.) Day 3, both you and Xtoxm got added to this chat and given our identity.
3.) The scum team had a strongman kill, but only on season finale nights, which was night 4/8/12/16, etc... (doubt the game goes quite that long). The scum team also had a role that could keep us from allying/fusing. Neither of these scum roles could be assumed to be dead when the game was set up and balanced.
4.) Therefore, if either you or Xtoxm were scum, there would be no way for the game's main town character to survive night 4 (apart from sheer luck, which cannot be counted upon when designing a game), because if either of you were scum, you would tell the scum team.


You design mafia games all the time. You

know

that having the main town character, who you give strong abilities to (and we have very strong abilities, including this delayed masonry {Given that we can logically assume you both are town, with only edge cases for paranoia}, along with other abilities we've told nobody about), would not be set up to just be killed off without any way to stop it aside from sheer luck.

By sheer luck, we killed Fro99er and Maxwell. If we had not, we would have been killed with the strongman kill for sure. We were foolish to claim, but we didn't have enough to logically trust you two, but we did have enough to at least vouch for your day one statement and why you would expect to be confirmed by the mod to us same as we are confirmed to you. It's possible you are playing a Gambit Mastin, but you are one of the people on site with a VERY stable meta, so that is a strong argument against any edge case that makes you scum.

Either show us why our logic is wrong, or get on board with us.

[Reasonably Rational]

Mastin, it was sheer luck we killed those particular slots. Fro99er and Maxwell could have rolled different slots on the scum team, and we lynched them, and the sequence described above by Drixx would have still occurred.

Anyways, so fuzzy+sonic scum, as of right now, or something totally different that will shock me.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Not on fuzzy. :p or, well, me.

[Drixx]

Time check.

[Reasonably Rational]

Any thoughts on how much time we should give klingoncelt, or on why he won't ally with you mastin?

[Drixx]

That looks like a staged performance going on in the main thread right now.

@Xtoxm - You do realize that you have contributed fuck all to the game, right? If there's a third party, you are by far the most likely candidate. If there's a second small scum faction, you are almost certainly on it. The fact that you just mocked us for wanting the replacement for Cooldog to have time to give a claim and interact and be questioned some is highly suspicious. Why don't you want us to have a chance to evaluate that slot finally?

[Cerberus v666]

(Don't mind Drixx, he's grumpy, with good cause)

[Cerberus v666]

You can certainly try, though it seems unlikely it'll be mutual. You don't need to conceal your vote less btw. We now KNOW scum rolecopped you and know you can vote and how. No longer any benefit to hiding it.

Also not sure how the rest of this plays out. I feel like you're the likely night kill if Sonic is town. Maybe grapes instead though. Meh. I need to think.

[Reasonably Rational]

Flavor on Amethyst: She was originally(long before the show) created by the bad guys as part of their army to take over earth, but she was later found by the crystal gems and joined them. So yeah, she makes perfect sense as a miller, or as a fake claim. Farside claimed lapis lazuli, the last potential remaining scum gem that's been featured in the show, and she has claimed a 1 shot rolebock, with season finale recharge, which she used on hermit last night (which is why I kept asking about whether or not he had attempted to ally xtoxm, as a way to confirm he was indeed blocked), and is a super saint.

TW's role included the explanation for the extra kill if you go reread her flip. She....had a lot of powers. Inventor, rolecop, encryptor, AND an additional kill on the season finale.

Anyways, sonic is scum, and they're gonna kill fuzzy tonight, and try to claim it was a frame attempt, because fuzzy is a lie detector (obviously). If they kill elsewhere, either fuzzy and sonic are scum together, they have some way to block fuzzy, or one of the two of you is scum (which doesn't logically follow).

And now I'm going to sleep. Well, gonna go back to trying.

-Cerb

[Drixx]

We believe that Trench Warfare (mainly Titus) believed that we thought they were town and that they had successfully gained conftown in our view right up until the moment the case went up. It's very possible that there will be things to find because of that.

[Reasonably Rational]

The only view on things I really have is the there's still no way TW knew sonics ability. The rolecop worked as advertised, except it didn't need to be done publicly, but TW had correct result on both your slots and pushed HARD that one of you had to be scum. That means they didn't rolecop sonic, unless they had two role cops, the previously mentioned logic chain means neither xtoxm or yourself told them, so....how did they know? What reasonable way could they have known.

I'm currently leaning towards a fuzzy/sonic team.

Also, we know that fuzzy is a lie detector because farside has a power to send messages, which they used to message sonic, he duplicated, and replied telling us that fuzzy was claiming lie detector.

-Cerb

[Drixx]

NOBODY knows what abilities we have (except for the conftown one, which we didn't realize would confirm us as Steven), so Fuzzy faces a difficult choice, if actually scum.

There's a few interactions that are going to be difficult to work through tomorrow. I'm pretty sure that you are town, Mastin, simply because you have established such a strong history that it would be very difficult for you to run a gambit in this way. I mean ... this masonry is only one way confirmed, so apart from the logic we have that you both aren't on the scum team we've seen flips for ... that doesn't mean neither of you are 3rd party. I lean towards Xtoxm for that likelihood though.

Xtoxm ... If you are town you should probably star trying to actually solve the game. If you are 3rd party, you should say so in here and get leashed. You have probably the best possible two players on site in this group in terms of admitting you are 3rd party. Mastin and I both believe that 3rd party = Policy Lynch is a bad gamestate and both would like to see better third party/neutral roles developed so that they don't require policy lynching to avoid end game issues.

There has to be some explanation for the way you have approached this game, and it is time past time for you to explain yourself. We don't have many mislynches left, so if you aren't invested in a town win and don't try and convince us, I'd much rather string you up sooner than later.

[Cerberus v666]

Eh, I'm inclined to believe we have one mislynch left before Lylo/Mylo. ^^ at 9 now, I'm thinking 5 scum, 2 left, 8 after the night, 6 after that if we mislynch, so...yeah, one mislynch, and then we'll be in mylo.

-Cerb

[Drixx]

All the more reason to be very sure about the people in here going into endgame. Xtoxm, given his current level of contribution to the game, is lynchbait in the end game.

[Cerberus v666]

All the claims:

Sonic X :Light Prism(other). Gladiator+role copier/watcher
Klingoncelt : Ronaldo(human), no claim, said his predecessor left him lots of wifom to sort through. Flavor makes sense for an investigative.
grapes: Amethyst(Gem). double voter. In alliances, can block non kills from anyone they've voted(uncertain if they can block two people, or if it's one of the two), in fusions, can quad vote(two double votes).
farside22: Lapis Lazuli(Gem): Roleblock, recharges on season finales, Super Saint, can send a message via the mod 1x, and treestumped D1
Reasonably Rational: Steven Universe(Gem), Conftown
Mastin2: Connie(Human), voteless unless in an alliance, joined steven in a neighborhood D3
Xtoxmr: Pet Centipeedle, joined steven in a neighborhood D3
Thefuzzylogic99: The Cool Kids(Human) 1x pizza vendor, lie detector(only targetable on allies), motivator(only targetable on allies), pizza vendor recharges on season finale
St Constantine the Hermit: Kevin(Human): Party Crasher, can force their way into aliances, and demotivator to all members of alliance.

[Cerberus v666]

Message between Sonic and farside: The only other person farside claims to have messaged is MP, who was scum, and we know scum had an encryptor. Reasonable for Farside to simply be scum, with Sonic, and they just used their daytalk to send these "messages". That could also imply that Farside has a roleblock left, and they lied to us about using it(They claimed to use it on Hermit last night)...and that sonics willingness to be lie detected is simply an indication of their ability to simply block him.

Just thoughts. I think that one might be a bit on the paranoid side, but it's possible.

[Reasonably Rational]

Yay so that one was wrong. Fuzzy sonic, anyways, that's it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

What about his posting makes you feel he could be scum now? This is mostly for my own curiousity, there's no chance he came back as scum.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Mastin, my thoughts are there in the thread. :p it's less essential since we did hit scum yesterday, but it's still good for you to have a vote, and xtoxm is the least likely kill tonight, after grapes.

[Reasonably Rational]

Hi guys. So, Mastin, xtoxm, Fuzzy just contradicted himself, and I'd like your opinions. He explicitly stated in our PT(and in the thread, i think), that his lie detect only worked on someone he was allied with, but now he has suggested that he lie detect someone in spite of not actually having any alliances at all.

Upon noticing that, Drixx and I thought that perhaps his lie detect was completely made up, and he was thus getting confused about the limitations he had placed on his fake power. He responded to us by remembering the alignment limitation he had stated, but I'm making another post now to see if he will 100% agree to perform this lie detect in spite of the fact that he said he can't lie detect.

I'd just like your thoughts on how likely it is that this whole sequence is just fuzzy forgetting things, like he's done all game long about actual game events, or if it's him slipping up about a made up power he gave himself to give us a reason to keep him around.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Bleh. So now he needs to ally xtoxm in order to LD him? But he didn't need to ally a minute ago?

[Reasonably Rational]

But somehow he can ally and LD the same night, even though previously he said he had to be currently allied to the player to LD them? *sigh* can't tell if he's just being forgetful in a town way or a scum way, but leaning towards scum. You don't...forget how your role works, and neglect to tell town that the process suggested won't work, and that it guarantees you won't have a result until LyLo. Feels like he might just be continuing to go along with it so we don't lynch him.

[Drixx]

The only requirement before was that he had to be allied to the person to LD them. He won't be allied with Xtoxm until tomorrow and couldn't LD until tomorrow night. That was why we had to wait so long for the Sonic LD that he decided not to do because, as he said, "it's super obvious that Sonic is the towniest townie town ever"...

There's a clear contradiction here in the requirements for the power to be used, which is not a town slip. He explicitly said previously that he looked it up to be sure, but now the story has changed. That needs to be lynched.

The seriously strange part is that if Fuzzy actually flips scum, it will be the most bizarre scum slip scenario ever. Like ... Titus made a slip which

cleared

Fuzzy because Sonic could not get the refill ability if it belonged to another scum. Fuzzy had a logical clear based upon the tiny slip that blew the scum team apart, and squandered that? Shouldn't he have been able to ride that into at least a LYLO?

[Cerberus v666]

I could see it either way.

We can afford to give him a day, though.

No. No. No. No. That is lazy complacent Oh we have the game won already type play. Don't do that mastin. Fuzzy's play today, and his inconsistent statements, are scummier than grapes miller claim.

[Cerberus v666]

So, I'm very happy that grapes eventually hammered, but I'm irritated that we didn't set up alliances first. So, we need to all ally tonight. The three of us. That will ensure that Mastin can vote tomorrow.

[Cerberus v666]

That is unfortunate.

[Cerberus v666]

Well I did tell you.
I very much would prefer a grapes lynch tomorrow.

Yes, a grapes lynch is the obvious choice tomorrow. You can't I told you so us, btw. We did clear him, and were working to make sure he was being forgetful and not scummy. ^^

[Drixx]

Yep. Our hydra PT discussion will show that we cleared him and were just testing to make sure. There's an overwhelming amount of reason to believe Grapes is scum now. Like ... we talked about it for awhile and it just became absurd how scummy he looks after evaluating things.

[Cerberus v666]

Well, sure...except you didn't tell us anything we didn't know, and you also spent a significant amount of time telling us fuzzy *was* scum over sonic. Which, of course, was in the past, so reads change over time, etc, but the implication in your verbiage is that you were always solid on a town read on fuzzy, which clearly isn't the case.



Anyways, that's just semantics, not relevant, grapes lynch tomorrow sounds good. I think, Mastin, that our slots should ally(or try to fuse, maybe we can be Stevonnie!!)

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah, I know mechanically you can't, but flavorwise, steven and Connie DO fuse in the show. so, mastin, we're eachothers first choices, yes? What about the second choice?

[Cerberus v666]

You know what upsets me the most about grapes hammer? He did it before constantine could be force replaced. :p

[Drixx]

Please Please Please neither of you place a vote when the day starts until we ask for it. Grapes has an ability that is WAY too dangerous to take any chances. The Constantine slot is worrisome to me on that count.

There's a small narrow margin of doubt about Grapes, but he has to be lynched this coming day phase either way because of what he did yesterday:

1.) First said he wanted out of the game and that lynching the claimed Miller before end game was the right move.
2.) Placed his own survival in the game ahead of any other concern
3.) Ended the day early with no warning, resulting in town having not prepared for the larger alliances
4.) In doing 2 and 3, he contradicted his own expressed desire and (correct) assertion that a miller has to be killed before endgame.

• Putting your own survival ahead of other concerns is the action of the final member of a scum team.
  
• Saying one thing and doing another is a reliable scum tell
  
• Screwing up planning alliances when they can be at their most powerful is obviously anti-town.

My guess is: his plan was to get fuzzy mislynched, then kill someone (probably Nic), then push for a Constantine slot lynch and then kill someone (Presumably Xtoxm) and that would leave Us (RR), Mastin and him left in LYLO ... and everyone who has vote related abilities has said their vote mechanisms don't work in the end game, so either he is lying and he could instantly double vote in LYLO to win or he is assuming Mastin wouldn't have a vote and he would thus end game us.

We screwed up his plan by logically clearing fuzzy, and from outside appearances we were working out a way for Fuzzy to clear Xtoxm, which would confirm him (grapes) as scum and so he had only one play to make. End the day and hope he can smooth talk his way out of it the next day.

I'm pretty sure we'll win in a few hours when we just fast lynch Grapes, but if somehow despite all the evidence against him, he is town ... he destroyed a guaranteed town win (no way for us to lose once we cleared Fuzzy as the remaining possible scum could all be lynched before they could endgame town) just to keep himself alive. The verbal evisceration he would receive from me if that ends up beig the case will be legendary. They'll be telling stories and mythologizing it for years to come.

[Cerberus v666]

Damnit varsoon no Stevonnie makes me very unhappy!

[Drixx]

I just gotta vent somewhere. Someone has to take SCtH aside and talk some sense into him. I have to stop talking to him because I don't want to be the mean guy who chases people away but it's becoming hard to believe that he's doing anything other than trolling on this website. The only real rational alternative explanation would be a significant mental impairment, but his vocabulary and grammar don't indicate that at all.

[Reasonably Rational]

Sweet, sequel game!

Yeah, I don't really know what to say about SCtH. Kinda wrecked inorganic for the town a bit, blame that loss to a higher degree on him being bad than on mastin being good.

pedit: Sure, but he's actively not fun to play with. He hasn't added anything to either of the games I've seen him in. He just...occupies a slot...and does stuff. And doesn't seem interested in becoming better or anything, just...wants to vote sometimes.

[Reasonably Rational]

varsoon, can we ask for a short night? If the game isn't over now. ^^

And yeah, I actually never had any thought that MS wasn't a very thoughtful player, but I can see how he can give people that impression...but the thing is...he has opinions. about everything. And he shares them, and talks to people about them. He doesn't just not play.

[Reasonably Rational]

JUST LET US KNOW IF WE WON DAMNIT!!! DRIXX AND I HAVE SCHEMING TO DO!!

[Drixx]

Grapes is going to get eviscerated post game by me. Like there aren't words to describe my rage right now. He took a situation where town was guaranteed to win and threw it away in the most selfish and stupid against win condition move I've ever seen on this site.

[Drixx]

Grapes made a selfish play against his wincon. Fuzzy was as cleared as one can get without a cop result. Fuzzy was the scum team's attempted counter-wagon to save MaxwellPuckett, and the slip Titus made never happens if Fuzzy is scum because Sonic could not have gotten the refiller ability if Fuzzy were on the scum team. There is zero excuse for what Grapes did. If he just accepted the reality that we had 2 mislynches to work with and 3 people we might need to lynch, then it was a guaranteed town win. There's no excuse to place locking votes on something that has a super high probability of being a mislynch if the result of that action moves the game state from "inevitable town win" to "probable town win".

I will enjoy crafting the post he's going to get when the game is over.

[Drixx]

On another note, I'm going to be traveling for my grandfather's memorial and will be gone starting tomorrow and back on the 23rd. Wanted to make sure you know.

[Drixx]

You can try and reason with me all you want Varsoon, but Grapes said he was bored with the game, and he clearly didn't give a shit enough about the damage he did to be here at day start to explain himself. He should be an honorary member of the scum team.

[Reasonably Rational]

Mastin, ally us k? Cool. Sounds good. :p xtoxm, the third party thing is basically cuz you can only be part of this pt and not town if you're third party. Sucks that both Kevin and pet centipeedle are basically bit characters, no flavor help there. just gotta trust our logic that led us to treating this as a masonry. ^^

[Drixx]

Varsoon: Right now you are the only one who knows the ridiculous amount of effort that we put into this game. Grapes singlehandedly moved us from (99.99999% chance town wins) to basically a toss up, in one move. That is the largest probability swing in the game, and it was a bad play no matter how you view it. He even knew it was a bad play because he said himself that a miller has to get lynched before endgame. If this game ends up in a scum win, I'm going to nominate him for best scum performance because his play yesterday will be

THE

winning move for team scum.

[Drixx]

Mastin ... time to weigh in. You have a very high estimation of your own skills. They're needed now.

Go through it and tell us what you think (in case you don't survive the night):

Constantine - Both players on the slot behaved exceptionally scummy on day two. The Cooldog/KC slot claimed cop and claimed an innocent on the slot. Might assume that was scum killing and janitoring scum to ride the investigate clear, except that would be positing a 6 person scum team. Seems much more probable that the CD/KC slot was being honest and got an innocent result. This makes Constantine scum if Godfather. Requires scum team to have had both ascetic and Godfather.


Xtoxm - It seems to me to be broken if scum learned the identity of the IC 2 days before the IC could become mod confirmed IC. Furthermore, there is no way a game's designer can know which scum will get caught and when, so if Xtoxm is scum then we only survived by sheer dumb luck. Fro99er could have kept us from allying/fusing indefinitely since we count as a gem, and therefore Tunnel Warriors would not have been an escape mechanism for us, even if we were reasonably certain that scum would get a strongman kill at the finale (which Cerb predicted, and they did). So Xtoxm on the scum team means we are alive literally through sheer dumb luck of having killed the strongman at the last possible moment for us to stay alive.


Could the scum team be completely dead? Could the two kills that appear to be janitored actually be a non-compulsive Serial Killer Xtoxm? It requires positing something happening night one to prevent scum team's kill or that the scum team and SK both shot at the same place. Janitoring KC seems like a move made so that there cannot be any certainty that the slot's claim to be cop was true. So ... is it possible the game is only still going because there's a SK among us?

If so, do you think the SK would be given Ivestigation Immunity since the SK win condition is so difficult? That would point at Constantine and leave intact the logic that the Beach Buddies are all good.

Thoughts?

[Drixx]

Well fuck.

I begged you to interact more and give Cerb and I things we could read. You are now essentially part of what seems like a 50/50 toss up. Feel free to respond to the post I aimed at Mastin.

[Drixx]

You don't know this, but Titus legitimately was enraged by our asking her to rolecop Xtoxm. It wasn't faked, and it was at a time when she thought we were town reading her. The first hint that we had any suspicion of her we kept under wraps until the day Sonic put the absurd clock on the day and I started pushing TW and Sonic and they both jumped in to take pressure off from each other by trying to side track me or get me to delay. Prior to that, we gave no indication that we even had TW in a potential suspect pool. We talked openly to her, asked her thoughts on stuff, interacted with her, and even like vouched for her in thread a little bit, but the whole time both Cerb and I had a gut feeling she was possibly scum. The slip is just what confirmed it and caught out the team.

The slip, combined with them trying to get the lynch on fuzzy instead of MP, were good enough to put fuzzy in the logically cleared pile.

And I think Titus actually being enraged that we wasted her rolecop just to confirm something we already knew was genuine. It was a limited resource and she used it because she needed us to town read her, and obviously she was trying to find something else with it. That something else ... just spit balling it here but:

1.) She referred to us as bulletproof in her rant when she was caught (we keep to ourselves what our actual role abilities do, but she was certain we were BP which is a clue)
2.) If Constantine is scum then she had two partners investigation immune so wouldn't have been looking for a cop
3.) She was either trying to find a doctor ... or the scum team doesn't have a janitor ability (which means team scum is already dead) and instead the 1st day we saw either SK + Scum kill on the same target (with the Janitoring being the clue to the scum team to look for a 3rd party killer), or the scum team kill failed somehow.

It seems fairly plausible that she was trying to find the SK, and if she had found it I'm certain she would have given it to us to try and get town cred with us.

Constantine is probably the final anti-town, although there are cases to be made for both of you, and I think it makes more sense to posit an Investigation Immune non-compulsive Serial Killer (or an II Occasional Killer) than a scum team with both Ascetic and Godfather. Ultimately I don't really care so long as we lynch the right person and win.

[Cerberus v666]

What you're saying, mastin, is pretty much along the lines of what we're thinking. We're not really asking you to go out and find the last scum....we're asking you to please show us we're wrong, if we are.

Xtoxm, I think that's a very good point about the ascetic scum role in a game with a sk.

[Drixx]

Well fuck.

I begged you to interact more and give Cerb and I things we could read. You are now essentially part of what seems like a 50/50 toss up. Feel free to respond to the post I aimed at Mastin.

Well, you didn't really, you insulted and threatened me, at a time I felt like I was actually putting a lot of effort into the game. Clearly you disagree. Your attitude disengaged me from the game.

I'm sorry if I actually insulted you. If you look through the game, you will find that a very large number of now confirmed town players were scum reading you, and in fact people were still arguing that you were scum despite the logical implications of you (and Mastin) getting a neighborhood with us on day 3. I have a tendency to phrase things with some snark, so I suspect whatever you took as an insult, I was just being snarky or using hyperoble to make a point or something.

I

did

threaten you, but with good reason. Right now, we have a very few posts from you in the game. You have only 73 posts and the vast majority of them are very short and a good deal of them are not really game related. Your content in this game is a perfect example to point to as someone who is just lurking through the game. If you never engage and give us anything to read you on, then all we have to use to try and figure you out is those few posts and your presence in here.

Off the top of my head, you could be any of the following things, and I have no grounds to believe you are any one of them over any of the rest:

• Simply a town late neighbor who is part of a one way masonry (If this, why so little willingness to interact with us and why so little content in game)
  
• A scum late neighbor who is part of a one way masonry (there is actually some logical reason to make this the lowest probability)
  
• A neutral late neighbor Survivor (If you are a survivor, you are a liability to town and a possible asset to scum in LYLO so Titus could have seen that and not told us, but then why would she be so angry?)
  
• A neutral late neighbor {Noncompulsive, Occasional} Serial Killer (If you had any ability that wasn't just the late neighbor ability, we think Titus would have told us for cred)

The fact that any time someone brings up third party, you pretend that the only possible 3rd party role is a compulsive SK is a little worrisome. A non-compulsive SK with Investigative Immunity (Rolecop can't see they are an SK, alignment cop gets an innocent) would just try to get to the last night and use the extra kill then on the most likely scum target. If Scum kill and their kill both go through, it's game over and the SK wins (presuming scum didn't shoot them ... but most SKs are also given at least limited BP). So your play this game lines up pretty much perfectly with a non-compulsive SK's optimal play.

There's also the "occasional" SK thing, where an SK may only have the one shot and it refreshes each finale.

And of course, there's the Survivor thing. Flavor wise Centipeedle first was a monster, then switched sides and died for Steven and then came back, so the flavor would fit you as survivor decently well.


Also, in retrospect, the flavor in this game has been spot on exactly what you would expect from the show and the scum team all had fake claims that were pretty flimsy. Pet Centipeedle kind of fits into that catagory.


All of that said ... You are mostly cleared by Titus completely enraging after rolecopping you at our request. At that point we don't think she was aware of our suspicion of her, and the rage reads as authentic. So it is basically scum being enraged at what they viewed as us wasting their power that is what we have to clear you.


I hope what I'm saying makes sense. I would much rather have had a way to clear you because of your posts and actions. The things we are using that make you a low probability suspect have potential flaws where if we were coming to a conclusion about you based upon things you said and did, then if our conclusion was wrong it would be because our reasoning was bad.


The most logical conclusion is that Constantine is scum, for the reasons we already said ... but we cannot actually eliminate either of you as suspects. It is simply the fact that to posit either of you as scum requires making several unlikely assumptions and once you have to assume more than one or two unlikely things in order to conclude something ... it's probably a bad conclusion.

[Cerberus v666]

Kevin, bit character in one episode.

[Drixx]

There's some more evidence for that slot as scum. We only had the large alliance day 2 because Tunnel Warriors had revealed the ability to do it, and we had to co-ordinate it in the thread to get the TWs plus ourselves into there. Bins initial claim was that she thought her action would put us in a separate alliance with just her where, presumably, our powers would have been wiped (although that power has never been demonstrated and Constantine has been unwilling to ally people since then if I am remembering correctly?).

The slot couldn't pull the trigger and erase our abilities because that would have also destroyed their day talk. No matter what we are, they probably would not have been willing to give up day talk to get rid of our role.

[Cerberus v666]

It's really just prudent paranoia on our part imo.

Just a thought, but....well...responding to accusations that you're scum with apathy kinda seems like a terrible way to react in a game like this. You might want to reevaluate how you treat those situations.

[Drixx]

I don't believe either of us has ever come to the point where we believe you are scum, Xtoxm. It's simply a possibility that we've never been able to eliminate completely. Our conversations with each other are all in our hydra PT, which I believe we're releasing. I suspect if people go looking for a reason to be offended they'll find me saying things in very unguarded and flippant ways. If people go looking for how we approach things and the amount of effort and discussion that goes into being sure of things, I think most folks will be like "holy crap ... that's a really good methodology, but OMG it's super time consuming" which is pretty much true and true.

Some more evidence for Constantine as scum:

There was a time period where Tunnel Warriors claimed to have vigged the slot, and told Constantine that he was dead as soon as Varsoon showed up. A town player with the ability the slot claimed to have, in an alliance with 3 other players, including the one who claimed to have vig shot him, would have wiped those people's powers. The scum have way fewer players and thus their abilities are much more vital to their team than any particular town player. If that slot was town and thought it was going to die, the odds were pretty good that out of 4 people, one was probably scum (and we know that Trench Warfare was scum in hindsight), so firing the ability would have erased a scum role, and it would be reasonably expected to do so in that scenario the vast majority of the time. So it didn't make sense at the time that he didn't do it.

But it makes sense in hindsight. TW was the daytalk facilitator. He could have destroyed TunnelWarriors really nice abilities and destroyed our abilities ... but he would have had to take away scum daytalk in exchange, and I don't think any scum team would ever give up daytalk in exchange for two town PRs losing their abilities in a role madness game. That also makes sense why the slot was originally disappointed to have joined into a 4 person alliance instead of forming a separate alliance with just us. It very much looks like the plan was to separate us out of the publicly planned alliance (then Titus could have suggested we ally again and kept us close and try to find out what we had erased from us) and wipe us. With the ability working in an unexpected way, the wipe action suddenly had a huge downside, and thus didn't happen.

Just more stuff that we knew already but happened weeks going on months ago and so looking back to try and be as sure as possible.

[Drixx]

Xtoxm ... do you have some reason to be afraid to lynch Constatine? We had a supersaint in the game so it's possible he could be vengeful. The only way that could be problematic for you is if you are a survivor. If you are a survivor (makes flavor sense for your character and makes sense that Titus wouldn't tell us since Survivors are usually helpful to scum in endgame more than town), just tell us. We'll unvote so you can vote, and we can hammer. We're pretty sure he's bluffing about the hammer thing, but we can't figure out why you haven't voted for him. It makes absolutely no sense if you are scum as hammering wins you the game, and it makes no sense if you are town as you know for sure we are town and the amount of assumptions that need to be made for Mastin as scum go well beyond what reason allows.

So ... what's up?

[Drixx]

Well it's all over now. I hope we were right and you two were our friends and closest allies.