Mafia 78: Meta Breaking Mafia 1 - Game over!

[Kison]

Vote : Ectomancer

[Kison]

Very, very possible.

[Kison]

FoS: Ecto

for being too scummy to be scum.

This makes no sense.

So you want to lynch him already?

We have to give him time to prove himself either excellent or mediocre don't we? My vote is on Surye.

OMGUS much?

That's not OMGUS.

I call him out, and he responds by just saying he'll vote for me, I thought that was OMGUS. Perhaps I misunderstand, but I'm not sure why else he would say he'd vote me without saying anything else as to why.

What did you call him out on? The only thing I'm seeing is where you said, "for being too scummy to be scum." What is that calling him out on?

[Kison]

Coolbot, your initial claim demand was bad enough, but what Machiavellian-Maf just quoted was doubly bad IMO. The guy's not near lynch, why you want him to claim? Maybe if you made a case or something against him you'd do better to make your point?

So far, this is all I'm seeing...

Ugh, lot of crap in this game. Surye is acting awfully twitchy, though. He may not be the lynch for today, but he's a excellent candidate for a wagon.

Surye, you might want to think about making a claim. Your outrage at being voted cannot be defended by saying you were trying to generate discussion

Oh, I'm scared now. But I'd still like Surye to claim and for you to stop trying to halt any progress in this game.

....continues asking for claim....

My point is I don't see your initial suspicion of the guy beyond being "twitchy." If you've got some kind of suspicion that's so damning that it requires a claim, then I'd really like to hear it.

IMO Surye's not exactly the brightest star in the night sky after the whole OMGUS dilemma a few pages back, but that doesn't quite rank up with what you're doing here.

[Kison]

*smacks self repeatedly*

Coolbot, attacks without being on a wagon : meaningless how? I attacked you, but they held meaning because I asked you questions which, to be honest, put you in a worse light because the answer made no sense. I

still

don't get your interpretation of the Surye wagon, but maybe it's just your play.

What's Coolbot at vote wise?

[Kison]

@mod

- Why have you segregated poor Kison's vote? Cant he have his vote in the same place as the others? Why is he a second class voter?

First class. All other voters are second class.

On a more important note, I am in the process of rereading this game. I plan to post back tonight.

[Kison]

Yo!

Name's Kison. I meant to post back sooner, but the site went down in the middle of me writing up my response.

Anywho,

Unvote

Elias : Advocates the Surye wagon and joins it. Notes an ABR<->Surye connection. Later states nothing releveant has happened. Puts off posting content, then later comments on a few players. Votes Adel on page thirteen without giving a reason, "Guys let's lynch Adel."

Alfred B. Spampage : Dislikes Surye wagon. Defends Surye. Attacks/votes Coolbot. Calls for more votes on Coolbot and for a claim. Proceeds to vote Adel for no reason. Hints at being vig, later denies it. Votes Ectomancer. Immediately after, votes Adel. Calls for more votes on Adel.

Camisade : No content till page nine, was on vacation. Thinks nothing relevant has happened by page nine. Later votes ABR without giving a reason on page thirteen.

Coolbot : Votes Surye, simply calling him "twitchy" but not necessarily lynchable. Later demands a roleclaim from him when the wagon is dying down. Continues to demand roleclaim defiantly. Later thinks Rosso is scummy for calling for an Adel wagon without voting(I can see where he's coming from on this one). Still wants a freaking claim from Surye.

Surye : He is fine up until he starts badgering Ectomancer about the improperly attributed OMGUS vote. Continues to claim it was OMGUS even after Adel explained the order of vote placements. Later complains that Ectomancer has too much control of the game(huh?). Vote on Coolbot is fine. Suggesting either Coolbot or MM should be vigged, not so much. Vote on Farside I do not like at all.

FoS : Surye

If I had to pick from these, I'd have to go with

Vote : Coolbot

[Kison]

CoolBot[7] (pickemgenius, Machiavellian-Mafia, shaft.ed, ABR, Surye, TSS, Kison)

That's what I got for Coolbot, but I checked rather hastily so I could be wrong. He's already claimed "Townie" I believe. Guardian said 8 votes to lynch, so that'd be L-1.

[Kison]

And to justify what I was saying, he's "playing" at having control of this game, that we'll lynch who he wants us to. I found this really suspicious as it allows him to say things with the fall-back of joking.

And yeah, I actually caught the mistake I made in my notes about you saying you wanted MM vigged but apparently I forgot to change it. Regardless I didn't really like the vig directing.

[Kison]

I do not find Albert's arguments to be sincere. The problem is I don't think he cares one way or another if he's right or not, regardless of alignment. Could be wrong, but that's my take on him.

I still stand by a Coolbot lynch. Not planning to move my vote at this time.

[Kison]

</3 Adel.
</3 ABR.

[Kison]

Yeah, not sure how that even remotely resembles "sucks for us" but OK.

[Kison]

Going to tentatively

Vote : Surye

- again didn't like that Farside pile-on among some other things highlighted on my page 16 post.

[Kison]

He said he was a Vigilante but retracted the claim. I'm not sure if he did much beyond that.

[Kison]

I'm still alive. Unfortunately, I was gone this weekend. I will try to post something relevant tomorrow.

Again my Surye vote is tentative.

[Kison]

Ok, I took the liberty of rereading from page 13 on. A couple of things of interest :

Ok, so I don't like Coolbot, Adel, or ABR. However, given claims and relationships, I think ABR's the most likely town. Adel and Coolbot are both almost definitely scum, but the amount of buddying Coobot's done to Adel is VERY suspicious.

I will hammer Coolbot if there are no objections besides those from Coolbot and Adel.

The certainty here is pretty frightening. What "relationships" made you more certain that ABR was Town? I can understand his RB claim, but...

Vote: shaft.ed

Ok, so Coolbot was a townie who attached himself to scum. Makes sense. Given that ABR and Adel were two of the most active players here, I'd like to reccomend rereads all around. There should be some good info in them thar hills.

Why did you tack your vote onto Shaft.ed?

vote pick

This really threw me off at the time. Seems to be a vote based on annoyance rather than actual suspicion. I don't like the legitimization that follows : insulting people = scum? I've seen my fair share of insulting Townies.

vote: Rosso Carne

Is this lurker pressure or what?

Also, I encourage everyone to take a look at Adel's behavior surrounding Surye's bandwagon. She builds it up, and quickly tears it apart when she realizes just how close he is to being lynched. Ectomancer follows her lead.

Unvote

Vote : Xtoxm

What're your thoughts regarding Day One?

[Kison]

I've sadly found Gorrad scummy in almost every game I've played with him. I'm less certain of the scummy vibes he sends me. That does not excuse anything - but I'd like an answer from him before I decide whether or not he's vote worthy.

Why Xtoxm - His vote on PEG was tacked on after a debate over another game. Ok. Wonderful. He later legitimizes it by saying that that :

1) "I find that insulting people tends to come from scum." ->

Back that up. I do not agree with this at all.

2) "And he's contributing nothing, I don't care if he says he never does, it's not being helpful, he should die." ->

Coming from the guy who implies rejection towards PEG waiting for his replacement analysis.

im waiting on xtoxm for his replacement analysis.

Who said I was giving one?

So yeah. I find his vote to be pretty hypocritical and made more out of frustration than genuine suspicion. Maybe this will encourage him to give us his thoughts on yesterday's events, even if only in part.

[Kison]

Ok, well, i'm an FBI agent and Rosso is not SK.

Your choice if you believe me or not.

Dear jesus christ almighty, Xtoxm please tell me you're shitting me.

[Kison]

Why are you roleclaiming with three votes on you with 12 players in the game? It's 7 to lynch. Why not just address some of the concerns instead?

[Kison]

Yeah, he'll take you because you roleclaimed!!!

So again why DID you roleclaim?

Unvote

Vote : Gorrad

ahadjlskad;skadlska

[Kison]

Any reason you didn't revert back to Rosso Carne?

[Kison]

I voted Shaft.ed because he tagged along with ABR for the Coolbot wagon. ABR was town, but it was a scummy move in my eyes and I think a scum would have jumped at the chance to move it along.

And what of the rest of the Coolbot voters? What of yourself? You were one of the folks who trusted ABR more than Adel/Coolbot and hopped right on. Why single him out?

[Kison]

On the other hand, I don't like the last votes on the wagon. They seem really of the idea of "if I hammah and he turns up town I'll get attacked." If they weren't as reprehensive, great, but those votes took FOREVER to pile on.

Thuis, I support a gorrad lynch.

Not only do I think your initial argument is BS(scum could easily take advantage of a scummy player), I get the complete opposite feeling from Gorrad. He almost seems eager to pile on.

FoS : Rosso Carne

Xtoxm is my current top suspicious guy, because he keeps suggesting we lynch people on really illogical or irrelevant or just wrong reasons.

Why weren't you voting Xtoxm, then?

~~Adel & Surye~~

you didn't call OMGUS on me.

he voted you

BEFORE

you placed a FOS on him.

I normally harass a player I am unfamiliar with in the beginning of a game to get a read, and the read I'm getting off of you is scummy as hell. I expect you see you lynched within a few pages.

I do have an agenda: lynching you today. You are my target, and as many of the other players in this game know, I usually get my way on day 1. Any last words?

it isn't the action, it is the coverup that revealed you to be scum.

I hope you have better luck in your next game.

Vote Count #5

Surye[6] (Adel, Ectomancer, shaft.ed, CoolBot, Elias_the_thief, Machiavellian-Mafia)

...Three Posts Later...

with 15 alive I would expect that 8 would be needed to lynch, and yet the line "With 15 alive, 8 votes will lynch" line is mysteriously absent from Guardian's votecount.

This is not typical for Guardian as mod.


~~~

fos: shaft.ed

for trying to stir up WIFOM with his last post.

~~~

unvote, vote:ABR

because he asked me to nicely.

Convenient timing.

[Kison]

Here's a bit of insanity to wade through :

1) CoolBot[1] (Surye)
2) CoolBot[0]
3) CoolBot[0]
4) CoolBot[0]
5) CoolBot[0]
6) CoolBot[1] (Surye)
7) CoolBot[5] (Surye, shaft.ed, Albert, Ectomancer, Adel)
8) CoolBot[7] (Surye, shaft.ed, Albert, Ectomancer, Adel, pickemgenius, Machiavellian-Mafia)
9) CoolBot[4] (Surye, Ectomancer, pickemgenius, Machiavellian-Mafia)
10) CoolBot[4] (Surye, Ectomancer, pickemgenius, Machiavellian-Mafia)
11) CoolBot[5] (Surye, pickemgenius, Machiavellian-Mafia, shaft.ed, farside22)
12) CoolBot[4] (pickemgenius, Machiavellian-Mafia, shaft.ed, farside22)
13) CoolBot[3] (pickemgenius, Machiavellian-Mafia, shaft.ed)
14) CoolBot[3] (pickemgenius, Machiavellian-Mafia, shaft.ed)
15) CoolBot[7] (pickemgenius, Machiavellian-Mafia, shaft.ed, Albert, Surye, the silent speaker, Kison)
16) CoolBot[7] (pickemgenius, Machiavellian-Mafia, shaft.ed, Albert, Surye, the silent speaker, Kison)
17) CoolBot[7] (pickemgenius, Machiavellian-Mafia, shaft.ed, Albert, Surye, the silent speaker, Kison)
18) CoolBot[7] (pickemgenius, Machiavellian-Mafia, shaft.ed, Albert, Surye, the silent speaker, Kison)
19) CoolBot[7] (pickemgenius, Machiavellian-Mafia, shaft.ed, Surye, the silent speaker, Kison, farside22)
20) CoolBot[8] (pickemgenius, Machiavellian-Mafia, shaft.ed, Surye, the silent speaker, Kison, farside22, Gorrad)

[Kison]

Xtoxm, what do you think of the Coolbot wagon? What do you think of the Surye wagon?

[Kison]

Same question goes to Tarhalindur.

[Kison]

1. Surye[1] (Adel)
2. Surye[2] (Adel, Ectomancer)
3. Surye[3] (Adel, Ectomancer, shaft.ed)
4. Surye[6] (Adel, Ectomancer, shaft.ed, CoolBot, Elias_the_thief, Machiavellian-Mafia)
5. Surye[4] (shaft.ed, CoolBot, Elias_the_thief, Machiavellian-Mafia)
6. Surye[3] (CoolBot, Elias_the_thief, Machiavellian-Mafia)
7. Surye[2] (CoolBot, Elias_the_thief)
8. Surye[2] (CoolBot, Elias_the_thief)
9. Surye[2] (CoolBot, Elias_the_thief)
10. Surye[2] (CoolBot, Elias_the_thief)
11. Surye[2] (CoolBot, Elias_the_thief)
12. Surye[1] (CoolBot)
13. Surye[1] (CoolBot)
14. Surye[0]
15. Surye[0]
16. Surye[0]
17. Surye[0]
18. Surye[0]
19. Surye[0]
20. Surye[0]

Between 4 & 5 is where the interesting Adel/Ectomancer hop off is. As far as I can tell these are the only two bandwagons that ever built a ton of momentum(though could be wrong with ABR/Adel). I find it interesting Elias stuck to that wagon for so long, maintaining that Surye should have claimed(basically supporting Coolbot's point of view) yet later hops off to gun for Adel, the person who had initially been gunning for Surye.

*looks around and notices everyone is asleep*

[Kison]

Well, start by rereading one player or something. This game

has

dragged. And Surye again has vanished. Where are ya, boy?

[Kison]

Not really too anxious to move my vote. I would happily move to Tar. I do need to reread, however.

[Kison]

Surye, why are you not voting right now? Who are the scum?

[Kison]

Ok, Surye is a bad lynch. Like someone said before, his partner can come forward to confirm him. If it's a scum gambit, then that's a two-for-one. Big gamble on Surye's part if he's lying.

Still think Gorrad's a decent prospect for now, but will reread. I don't like how Xtoxm is pulling away from a Tar wagon. Like I said before, Tar is also not a bad choice based on his lack of presence alone. But there's a level of certainty to Xtoxm when he said :

Tar has said he can clear himself, so running him up and forcing him to claim is only going to be a bad thing.

How do you know he isn't lying?

[Kison]

I'm inclined to agree with Gorrad on this. Unless people can provide examples of where there's been an SK investigator in a game without an SK, I do see it as more of a bastard mod move rather than meta-breaking. Which would make Gorrad's level of confidence a rather gutsy move.

Gorrad : how confident are you that Xtoxm is lying? I would say it would look pretty bad for you if you wind up being wrong about this. If he winds up being what he claims to be, then I'm going to have a hard time coming to grips with you being Town.

That is, unless someone can show me an instance where there's been an SK investigator without an SK. Personally I have never been in such a game(unless my memory is failing horribly).

Unvote

Vote : Xtoxm

(pending response)

[Kison]

I'll gladly go with Rosso Carne.

Unvote

Vote : Rosso Carne

[Kison]

Oh, Tarhalindur...

[Kison]

Posting to let you folks know that I'm still alive. Going to be fairly busy over the next few days, as far as I can tell.

My vote's probably going to fall on Gorrad for obvious reasons. The only thing is that I _am_ concerned over the meta-breaking implication behind the chainsawing. Then again, the name of the game isn't bastard-moddery Mafia, which this kind of would be.

He also was a tad overzealous in his Windkirby campaign. Not saying this means he's not the SK, but it means I want to take another look.

[Kison]

I wouldn't consider it bastardmoddery as long as there are no disadvantages to the role -- it's basically a naive cop with no risk of getting an innocent read on a scum -- but I think Gorrad needs to get voted regardless of which he is, unless we want to just assume he's the SK and allow him to live so long as his kills are directed. Dunno if that would be a great idea though, though I tend to like that sort of risk-taking.

No no no, that's not what I'm saying. Though I guess since I actually am sitting down and thinking about what I said, bastard moddery wouldn't really qualify in this case. I was more or less pointing out that "chainsawing" is typically a Serial Killer MI(right?). Giving that MI to a vigilante would throw people off.

[Kison]

Tar, not sure wtfrak is scummy about me discussing the chainsawing. We're trying to gage Gorrad, after all.

I think I get PEG.

On the Gorrad situation, he's either the SK or Town. He did well proving he has a kill at his disposal. So, if he's Town, he won't defect from where we direct his kill. If he's an SK, we lynch him once he

does

defect. This'll keep his kill at our disposal until we decide he's to go. I know I'm not the first one to bring this up. Just typing this to work it through my neural circuits. I like the idea. Defection = lynch. Of course once we think we're close to Lylo, and if we still disbelieve his claim, we can also get rid of him. ATM I think we're in a fairly decent position.

Tarhalindur - I disagree with a lot of his voting logic(wtf @ his day two vote on me). Also, this is so wrong :

I want a lynch, but I do NOT want a Rosso lynch (Rosso is acting like Rosso, who would be better off being investigated and/or vigged, and appears to be inactive to boot). I strongly believe that there are multiple mafia on that wagon (probably shaft.ed and Kison).

In the interests of getting a lynch,

Unvote

Not only does he unvote & avoid the Rosso Carne lynch(actively), he seems sold on me being scum here, but a few posts prior to the one I'm currently typing, seems to be fairly neutral on me. Why the change of heart?

Vote : Tarhalindur

TSS - who's the scum?

Here's a question for Surye : If I recall correctly, you said you and your mason pal weren't confirmed Town. Since this is meta-breaking, have you two discussed the possibility that one of you are scum? I'd personally say mafia-town mason pairs are less conventional than town-town.

[Kison]

Shit, forgot he claimed cop.

Unvote

[Kison]

What slip? Voting Tar?

[Kison]

I would hardly call what my post "making a case", but if it was then that'd be further indication that my post had nothing to do with Gorrad's, considering the time gap between our two posts :

Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:03 pm
Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:17 pm

But in reality, if you take note of my recent activity in this game(where I even noted I'd be busy for a few days), I was refreshing and catching up and found a few things I found interesting, that post being the main thing. I do remember Tar claiming cop but I had forgotten at the time, likely, aside from not having been fresh on this game, due to the fact that we had four(?) roleclaims yesterday, Gorrad's being the main focus.

[Kison]

Also, I find it insulting you think I'd try to lynch a claimed cop without good reason. <3

[Kison]

Note it all you like, I am slightly insulted you think I'd try to make such an outrageous move as scum.

there's a reason it's just a FoS.

I think Kison may have outed himself with that slip up.

Pretty hefty FoS over such a little thing if you ask me.

[Kison]

No.

[Kison]

Anyway, shafty, I'm not exactly crying, here. It's more that what you're suggesting is so outrageous that you honestly can't believe I'd try to do that unless you thought I was a complete idiot, which would be insulting. I think you're just mull headed and didn't think it through!

You know I <3 you though.

[Kison]

What would my motivation be? Trick everyone and hope they all forgot that he claimed cop?

[Kison]

Then if I legitimately forgot, what then would be my "big lie"?

[Kison]

Your logic is contradicting itself. What would my cover up be? Claiming that I forgot about the role claim. Yet the condition is "if I legitimately forgot" about the role claim. How can I legitimately forget and be lying about forgetting at the same time?

[Kison]

I can understand someone suspecting me for that if they didn't think it through. The problem I have right now with you is that you claim you've thought it through while simultaneously failing to point out the thinking process and how the vote and unvote(which is what you FoS'd me for) make me any more likely to be scum while continuing to support it.

Again, your FoS was hefty : "I think Kison may have outed himself with that slip up."

My entire point was that there is no motive for me, as scum, to try to get Tar lynched if I

knew

he claimed cop. Your response to that was that "The big lie is the easiest one to pull off because no one thinks the liar would be capable of such a thing." Now you're claiming my "lie" is something that came

AFTER

the very incident you based your FoS on in the first place.

[Kison]

And since when did FoS's become such a big deal to you? You're pushing on that FoS as if it were an L-2 vote.

Well, like I said, your FoS seems fairly hefty because of the line proceeding it, and I don't get that since I don't view what I did as very indicative of me being scum. Mildly suspicious, perhaps.

[Kison]

Did you not notice the double quilifier usage? I certainly wasn't saying "lynch Kison now he's obv scum."

Obviously it's not the level of certainty, otherwise you'd have voted me. It's that what I did being interpreted as possibly

outing myself as scum

does not compute. I like Surye's explanation. But I agree we(and probably mainly because of me) have dragged this out far too long.

[Kison]

Well, we still have the SK/Vigilante so theoretically he should be able to off our 2nd choice. Elias ain't a bad choice - Day one hard pushing on Surye even after the wagon had died down.

Elias, TSS & Toaster Strudel are the best three picks for today.

Vote : Toaster Strudel

Gorrad, if you kill anyone without town consensus, you're dead.

[Kison]

- shaft.ed
- Machiavellian-Mafia
- Pickem Genius

Would be my lower tier lynch candidates in that order. Of course pending what we do with Gorrad.

[Kison]

TS : You were quick to jump on the Elias wagon yourself, so why are you surprised to see people offering him up as a NK target?

I am going to reread now, so expect my list to change.

Unvote

until I am finished.

[Kison]

I currently like PEG, TS, and Elias as scum candidates, in that order, since they have all been pretty much nonexistent in terms of contributing, especially recently. I'll jump on TS wagon and pressure him.

Vote: TS

Who do you think is scummy because of their "existent contribution"?

[Kison]

I would rather lynch Elias, but whatever.

- Illogically defended the lonely Coolbot during Day One because he didn't find his continued demand that Surye claim to be scummy. Honestly, who here thinks Coolbot's play surrounding this was smart?

- Winds up gunning for ABR over Adel.

- One of the people actually pushing to

lynch

Surye during Day Two over the dying Surye wagon and Adel's involvement in it. Was a nice thing to look at and keep in mind but hardly lynch worthy. Same goes for Shaft.ed on this one(and possibly others).

- Only see two or three places where he mentions Rosso Carne. One he says he's scumhunting and looks good. The other he says he thinks he's seen him play like he has before(why was this mentioned? I don't get it).

Vote : Elias

I will move this in order to prevent a deadline nolynch. Order isn't hugely important but TS is right about roleblocking preventing a no-kill. Vote the one you thinks is most likely to be scum.

[Kison]

I am here and reading. Standby.

[Kison]

- Illogically defended the lonely Coolbot during Day One because he didn't find his continued demand that Surye claim to be scummy. Honestly, who here thinks Coolbot's play surrounding this was smart?

No one has ONCE shown why Coolbots attacks were wrong, or why his attempt to get a claim was wrong. I cant believe im getting lynched for disagreeing with a town tha wont even explain its ridiculous assertions. I especially love your appeal to majority at the end. Real nice touch.

Many times it has been explained how Coolbat's demand for a Surye claim was ridiculous. The initial claim was not so much of a problem. It was the continued demand for one after his wagon was no longer existent, and you defended this.

- Winds up gunning for ABR over Adel.

Did you actually read ABR's attacks? They were retarded. Did you actually read what Adel posted about his meta lynching standards against her? My play in regards to this was perfectly justified.

ABR is always retarded. Perhaps you were justified in supporting Adel, but it is something I will note nontheless considering she is scum.

- One of the people actually pushing to

lynch

Surye during Day Two over the dying Surye wagon and Adel's involvement in it. Was a nice thing to look at and keep in mind but hardly lynch worthy. Same goes for Shaft.ed on this one(and possibly others).

What in fucks name made you think I actually wanted Surye lynched over just that? We all know how well pressure works if you say its just pressure

This :

So I really need to devote more time to this game.

Can we bandwagon Surye already?

so.... still not seeing where this is a good idea...

proven scum that started the wagon jumped off for no good reason when it got serious?

How is that not good enough reason?

unvote, vote: surye

Perhaps lynched is the wrong word, but your top pick for lynch candidate, AKA bandwagoning, yes. If he was not your top pick, please tell me who was, and where you mentioned that they were your top pick at that time.

- Only see two or three places where he mentions Rosso Carne. One he says he's scumhunting and looks good. The other he says he thinks he's seen him play like he has before(why was this mentioned? I don't get it).

Dude. NO ONE MENTIONED HIM MORE THAN ONCE OR TWICE. HE DIDNT DO ANYTHING,

The number of times you mentioned him is not a point against you.

AND I DIDNT SAY HE LOOKED GOOD I SAID HE APPEARED TO BE ASKING QUESTIONS AND SCUMHUNTING, I HAD HIM NEUTRAL I THINK.

Wrong :

rosso carne looks good

, leading some attacks and scumhunting and such.

THAT WAS LIKE 20 PAGES AGO. And once again, as I've already explained, I DIDNT EVEN SAY IF HE WAS TOWN OR NOT FROM THE PREVIOUS GAME BECAUSE I DIDNT REMEMBER. IT WAS IN NO WAY A DEFENSE, SCUM HAS JUST MADE IT SEEM THAT WAY.

Well, that's why I asked why you bothered to bring it up...

I honestly kind of think Kison is scum right now. Not because he makes a case on me, but because this case is so clearly fabricated its ridiculous.

Feel free to point out the fabrication.

[Kison]

(note: this is partially because of the comment about my lynch being the only possible one thanks to math. WTF shafted, i thought you were a smarter player than that)

I'd personally flip to Kison over you. I have a feeling that one of you two is scum but I don't see the votes for him materializing. We have like 2 or 3 hours and it's just me and Surye posting right now. How are we going to get the votes? And why vote me if Kison is the scum?

What makes you think one of us is scum? Reasons. Quotes. Explanation.

[Kison]

Many times it has been explained how Coolbat's demand for a Surye claim was ridiculous. The initial claim was not so much of a problem. It was the continued demand for one after his wagon was no longer existent, and you defended this.

The initial demand for claim was justified, as in he was sufficiently suspicious. Why the fuck does that go away when his scumbuddies jump off the wagon?

Are you telling me you still think Surye is scum? It's not that Surye necessarily should have claimed. It's that traditionally, when one hits L-2, or when someone feels they're close to being lynched, demanding a claim in order to better gage whether or not that person is scum as a last ditch attempt to prove their innocence is a good move. If the wagon dies and they're no longer in danger of being lynched, it's the Town's responsibility to put them back there if they want that claim. Otherwise, I do not see the point of forcing someone to claim if the Town does not even find them suspicious enough to threaten them with a lynch. It's a very simple concept, brosef.

ABR is always retarded. Perhaps you were justified in supporting Adel, but it is something I will note nontheless considering she is scum.

But not something that should be evidence against me. Defending Adel WAS THE RIGHT PROTOWN MOVE AT THE TIME as the case against her was shit.

Was Adel supported all around? Were those supporting ABR scum? Why should scum support ABR if they can justifiably support their scumbuddy? It's not that you supported Adel with bad reason, it's that you backed her when she was butting heads with ABR. This is hardly damning in itself, but it fits what I would see scum doing. Therefore it is worth noting.

-What in fucks name made you think I actually wanted Surye lynched over just that? We all know how well pressure works if you say its just pressure

This :

So I really need to devote more time to this game.

Can we bandwagon Surye already?

so.... still not seeing where this is a good idea...

proven scum that started the wagon jumped off for no good reason when it got serious?

How is that not good enough reason?

unvote, vote: surye

Perhaps lynched is the wrong word, but your top pick for lynch candidate, AKA bandwagoning, yes. If he was not your top pick, please tell me who was, and where you mentioned that they were your top pick at that time.

Wow...since when have I ever used random bandwagons to support lynching? Have you actually played with me before or no? Why is it my job to keep you informed as to my top candidates for lynching at all times? To me it seems that just tells who I'm willing to be convinced to vote for if they make a BS case. I had no top pick for lynch. My top suspect was Surye but I was in no convinced that I should lynch him.

Very well. You didn't think we should lynch him. Did you feel that the bandwagon derailment warranted forcing a claim out of him? How far did you want to bring that wagon? Because my entire point is that the bandwagon derailment, to me, was not as indicative of Surye being scum as you seem to believe. Also, you have implied you suspected him for other reasons. What are those other reasons? I find it funny that you insisted you had those other reasons, and when I pointed out that you only used that derailment as a reason, you dropped that point and turned the focus onto semantics.

[Kison]

If its the towns fucking responsibity to put them back, WHY THE FUCK WAS IT SCUMMY FOR COOLBOT TO ATTEMPT THAT YOU RETARD? Are you saying that people should abandon their suspiciouns if the town doesnt agree.?

Because he was less concerned about getting the votes and more concerned about getting the claim. He wasn't trying to present a case against Surye. He was saying, "I want him to claim," yet was not doing anything to convince anyone as to why until asked to later on. I can't just say, "Elias, I want you to claim" and expect you to comply without good reason, because obviously the rest of the Town doesn't agree since their votes aren't on you. On the flip side, if scum hopping off the wagon caused that to die, then it meant they were on it in the first place, indicating there was even less of a town consensus in the first place. Going by memory, the claim demand didn't come till afterwards. If it came first then I would be more inclined to agree with you.

Was Adel supported all around? Were those supporting ABR scum? Why should scum support ABR if they can justifiably support their scumbuddy? It's not that you supported Adel with bad reason, it's that you backed her when she was butting heads with ABR. This is hardly damning in itself, but it fits what I would see scum doing. Therefore it is worth noting.

It was the proper protown play.

And something I'd expect scum to do given the circumstances.

I wanted a claim, the same claim that me and coolbot wanted the day before. I never implied other reasons. I was simply using that language since you used it when describing me pursueing a lynch just for that, my argument was that I was no where near intent to lynch.

Then this is our problem. I do not see the wagon derailment as coming anywhere near warranting what you wanted.

You can fuck off now.

Anyways, Elias, sorry if you're Town. I planned on doing a full reread but I just haven't had time. Your actual game actions simply are scummiest to me, whether or not you agree. It's your call whether or not you wish to hate me forever for it.

[Kison]

You're right. I also was guilty of resisting the idea that things may not have been what they appeared to be. Scum-Town mason pairings are not something you see every day - perfect for a 'meta-breaking' game.