Mafia 78: Meta Breaking Mafia 1 - Game over!

[Surye]

Vote: Kison

, wondering if he's a Kison I know from elsewhere.

[Surye]

Do you know a Surye from anywhere, it's sure to be me

[Surye]

Albert B. Rampage

For a competing wagon.

who are you trying to kid? That isn't a vote.

Clear scumtell

Unvote. Vote:CoolBot

[Surye]

oh wow, another San Diego scummer. Howdy! Are you attending college here or in the military?

Currently attending Grossmont College (now all my stalkers know!), nice to see another SD scummer

[Surye]

Only interesting datapoint I see in Page1-votes, is the cross vote between PEG and ABR. Ho-hum.

[Surye]

Very sweet. ;P

Anyways, back to the game,

Unvote

. Since the only thing I've noticed so far seems to just be meta-history, I'm back to watching and prodding. Though is it pretty interesting PEG and ABR also both have 3 votes each... Why are they so wagonable?

[Surye]

Though is it pretty interesting PEG and ABR also both have 3 votes each... Why are they so wagonable?

What's wrong with a good wagon to start out the game?

Nothing at all, I didn't question the existence of the wagon, simply the choice of targets. Trying to use the wagon to stimulate a little activity and information, which is what a wagon is good for, no?

[Surye]

Elias are those games ongoing?

vote: Elias

for maybe talking about ongoing games

And here I thought votes were for scum, not rule breakers.

[Surye]

Mod: camisade has not posted in this thread yet. Prod?

Rosso Carne has not voted yet... I'd like to get out of the random stage, thank you very much nicely.

nah, nothing really to vote on IMHO.

Ecto has a Depeshe Mode quote in his sig... IRL that is enough for me to put machine oil in his coffee.

I thought you're done with the random voting stage? This sounds like you're just egging it on.

[Surye]

I listen to KMFDM, and you can't appreciate KMFDM unless you are familiar with the enemy.

But what of me? I listen to and enjoy both KMFDM and Depeche Mode. I own damn near all of both their discography.

I think they are right, closet fan.

[Surye]

How is that even close to anti-town?

Unvote, Vote:Adel

There, we're out of the random voting stage.

[Surye]

unvote, vote Surye

Pattern baldness.

Whaaaat.

[Surye]

I've seen things you wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

I don't know how I could vote for someone who randomly quotes Blade Runner. But some how I will pull through.

[Surye]

we figured out that you are scum. Me and ecto and PEG share a brain, and we always share alignment.

Interesting that PEG is associated with a group here, when his vote lies on ABR currently.

[Surye]

Meta-history and spam seem to be dominating this game.

Time to get down to business, anyone see anything particularly suspicious so far in the game? All I have been able to see is the PEG/Adel/Ecto (as that one was thrown in my face ) and the ABR/PEG connection. Both of these are probably useless.

[Surye]

FoS: Ecto

for being too scummy to be scum.

[Surye]

So you want to lynch him already?

We have to give him time to prove himself either excellent or mediocre don't we? My vote is on Surye.

OMGUS much?

[Surye]

I call him out, and he responds by just saying he'll vote for me, I thought that was OMGUS. Perhaps I misunderstand, but I'm not sure why else he would say he'd vote me without saying anything else as to why.

[Surye]

I call him out, and he responds by just saying he'll vote for me, I thought that was OMGUS. Perhaps I misunderstand, but I'm not sure why else he would say he'd vote me without saying anything else as to why.

actual sequence of events:
1. you voted for me
2. i voted for you
3. ecto voted for you
...
you call OMGUS on Ecto.

does not compute,
advise quicklynch of Surye under LAL

FoS: Ecto

for being too scummy to be scum.

I find it really convenient you left this out of your sequence, since that immediately preceded his call to vote me.

And to justify what I was saying, he's "playing" at having control of this game, that we'll lynch who he wants us to. I found this really suspicious as it allows him to say things with the fall-back of joking.

[Surye]

You added your self to the list of events, sorry, but you had nothing to do with it, I'm not sure why you think any of that was relevant.

[Surye]

he voted you

BEFORE

you placed a FOS on him.

Hmm, so you're right, I forgot the vote order since up till now it was mostly non-sense voting, and when he said his vote was on me, for some reason I was thinking he was

threatening

a vote on me.

I don't see how it's scummy as hell though. If his first vote was from the random voting stage, and after I FoS him, he solidifies it into a real vote, I still stand by my OMGUS. If it's not, then that means he actually meant something by his first vote on my, and that sets you and Ecto as having an agenda.

Either way, Ecto is implicated, so I think I'm on the right track, and the way you are responding makes me really suspicious of you.

[Surye]

I agree with Adel. I also found Surye to be trying to hard to look proactive before this broke.

unvote vote: Surye

Would any of the other eleven people signed up for this game like to post?

Yes, I try to provoke discussion, I don't see what's wrong with that. It worked as usual, and as usual, it attracted a lot of attention to me, but if you read what I am saying, you'd see Ecto and Adel are
acting very odd.

And @Adel, how is you defending ecto's OMGUS (you've cleared it up, that's what it was) not suspicious?

[Surye]

Well damn, I hope I'm not lynched for ignorance of their play style, I've just been trying to get the conversation away from game histories and on some scumhunting.

[Surye]

Because Adel seemed serious about it, and everyone who has posted seems to agree. But looking at it again, that's not that many, I guess I started feeling a snowball growing behind me for no reason. Guess I'm getting ahead of myself. But if this is just their play style, then I am not sure what I have for this game yet.

[Surye]

I guess I was clearly wrong, I'll make note of what OMGUS really is then.

[Surye]

Wrong about what OMGUS is, and wrong about how Ecto was acting. I explained what I meant when I said "too scummy to be scum", whether my logic was wrong or not, I was not lying. I have a tendency to over post my foot into my mouth, and that's what happened here, I don't know what else to say, other then show me where it's scummy and not just me being an idiot, and I'll do my best to address that.

[Surye]

... I guess I had reason to be paranoid. What the hell did I do to deserve L-1? I thought I explained myself pretty well, I was just a little overzealous in the begining, trying to get out of the random voting stage, I wasn't being scummy, I just don't like sitting around while everyone is afraid to say anything. So I was wrong and my logic was off, I explained my self every step of the way, it's not like I was leading some pointed campaign against anyone, hell, I didn't even vote anyone once the game got more serious.

You're all going to lynch me of a FoS and a miss use of OMGUS, which I explained why I mixed that up?

[Surye]

it isn't the action, it is the coverup that revealed you to be scum.

I hope you have better luck in your next game.

Kindly quote my coverup?

[Surye]

I didn't even vote anyone once the game got more serious.

How is that even close to anti-town?

Unvote, Vote:Adel

There, we're out of the random voting stage.

trying to revise history

Heh, You think the game was getting serious there?

...

also

I have a tendency to over post my foot into my mouth, and that's what happened here, I don't know what else to say, other then show me where it's scummy and not just me being an idiot, and I'll do my best to address that.

attempt to use Idiot defense to absovle yourself from responsibility.

Heh, no no no, what I did didn't make me an idiot. I think I was still correct in my overall action, which was to stimulate conversation, the OMGUS thing I used it wrong.

Question for everyone in the game so I can learn a little better, what is this:

How is that even close to anti-town?

Unvote, Vote:Adel

There, we're out of the random voting stage.

.. very next post ..

unvote, vote:Surye

because I said so.

[Surye]

Calm down there Surye....I got your back, just don't make my job any more difficult than it is.

It was calm, just a lot of quotes making it big. My point at the end there is not that Adel OMGUSed, just that if I had not misunderstood OMGUS, would I have not used it there?

[Surye]

I don't plan on claiming, people seem ready to talk now, so I hope we can get this sorted out.

And I don't know what you mean Coolbot by the game getting somewhere, it's only page 6, and we've just recently started talk of substance, the game getting on means end D1 with only a couple pages of discussion?

FoS: Coolbot

Also, 'outrage' is a very poor wordchoice.

[Surye]

I'm vigging you tonight Coolbot.

Oh, I'm scared now. But I'd still like Surye to claim and for you to stop trying to halt any progress in this game.

Simupost turns HoS to

Unvote, Vote: Coolbot

[Surye]

Though if ABR is telling the truth, he may be better left for the vig. His attempts to try to force my claim when the wagon starts to fall apart is scummy. I'll leave my vote there for now, though MM's L-1 move may be a better place for it. Not sure yet..

[Surye]

What? What was wrong in them? Since I had suspicion on my head, are you asking me to stop participating in the game?

Sorry if it's bad form to post multiple times, bad habit.

[Surye]

And yet you still haven't pointed out anything wrong with the statements in my triple post...

[Surye]

Are you kidding me, shaft? One unvote is a dying wagon? The only reason it was dying was that Albert whined about it, not for any reasonable defense by Surye. I think a claim is justified at this point. It only being 6 or 7 pages in doesn't change that.

I count 2 unvotes, Ecto and Adel, that's a third of the wagon, not to mention the two most vocal about the wagon.

[Surye]

Hmm, I thought that was L-1, too. I should've checked.

That doesn't change the fact I want a claim, or at least a defense from Surye other than "trying to generate discussion". That's what a bandwagon is for - to force someone to have to defend oneself and, yes, to claim. Letting him go without doing so is folly.

Defend myself against what? I've explained every word I have said over and over.

[Surye]

someone cite a coolbot vote reason please for me.

I'll explain your vote:

You don't feel like reading, so to contribute to the game without the effort, you are going to put Coolbot at L-1 so he can claim and we can all decide to lynch him or not. Simon says.

Don't forget the Jedi hand wave.

[Surye]

The problem is that there was a bandwagon on him and I saw him do nothing to defend himself from reasonable attacks. Allowing that is a recipe for failure.

What have I left undefended? I asked you once already, so now I'll ask you to quote what you mean, but it doesn't seem that you can..

[Surye]

I want you to claim. I haven't been unclear about this. You defending your early behavior as just generating discussion is what warranted the wagon, but now I want a claim.

Well, since you won't show me what I have not defended, good luck with your transparent crusade against me.

[Surye]

Back after a week of relative inactivity.

The big question of the last six pages: why the hell was Surye not forced to claim when he reached L-2?

Oh wait, that's an easy question: Surye didn't have to claim because Ecto (and to a lesser extent Adel) derailed the wagon just after it reached L-2 and before Surye was forced to claim.

I'm not going to fault CoolBot for wanting a claim out of someone who should have been forced to claim 3 pages ago. I do, however, think Ectomancer's derailing the Surye wagon and many, many questions asked while giving only a few of his own thoughts indicates that Ecto is fairly likely to be scum.

Unvote, Vote: Ectomancer

Interesting, while I am appreciative of ABR having my back, I find it interesting that you completely ignored him in your analysis, when he's the one that actively derailed the bandwagon, and began pointing out CoolBot's behavior.

[Surye]

I really lack meta on anyone, so I need to use only the context of this game. Given that, I'm not sure what to think at this point, I will do a re-read tonight when I get home and do a rundown of my current thoughts.

[Surye]

All this current talk is rather uninteresting, but hopefully this bandwagon will succeed in getting the ball rolling..

Unvote Vote: farside22

[Surye]

Hmm, I had not read farside's sig (congrats!), and with that in mind, the small tell of being somewhat lurkerish really doesn't seem likely to be a scumtell.

Unvote

Coolbot it still probably my most suspicious candidate in the game. He is still hung up on one wagon like 3 wagons ago, which WAS me, but that's not what has my attention, there have been wagons since that he has not been so stubborn and head long about.

Adel/ABR dynamics have me a little confused right now, I'll need to think about this exchange a bit, but I have a feeling scum is on one side of it.

Rosso Carne's lack of voting once (by my count) seems really suspicious to me, just not participating in the game in any substantial way.

I don't get the case against Ectomancer that has come up a few times, I think he's just been a scapegoat for people getting wagoned.

Vote: Coolbot

For the win.

[Surye]

Coolbot and Adel are starting to look tied together. Even better to lynch the Bot, we might resolve two birds with one stone.

i'm not seeing what you're seeing.

I'm with you on this, my best guess is that ABR is connecting these two, and shaft.ed is just reading into it wrong.

[Surye]

Surye : He is fine up until he starts badgering Ectomancer about the improperly attributed OMGUS vote. Continues to claim it was OMGUS even after Adel explained the order of vote placements.

Later complains that Ectomancer has too much control of the game(huh?)

. Vote on Coolbot is fine.

Suggesting either Coolbot or MM should be vigged, not so much.

Vote on Farside I do not like at all.

FoS : Surye

Hmm.. Underline is mine where I don't know what he is talking about :/

I don't see where I said anything about ecto having too much control. I may have seemed to imply it or something, but I can't find the post or it's relevance.

And I never suggested that MM should be vigged, you read that wrong, I said that if CB were to be vigged maybe a vote on MM (not a vig) would be better. But in hindsight, I guess I don't know when a vig is a good thing to have? But I also wasn't suggesting a CB vig either, ABR suggested it, I just simply reacted to it, and I never actually unvoted him. So you were wrong on both counts there (though rereading the post I can see how the part about MM could be miss read).

Not even really defending anything there, just curious what you meant on some of the points.

[Surye]

Role-blocker here. Unvote kthx.

An L-3 claim. Are you losing your nerve Albert?

When should he claim? Although a RB is more scum in games that I've played then town. With a deadline and people piling votes I think him claiming is reasonable. However RB is a hard thing for me to swallow. I have seen town and scum RB, but most time they are scum.
I also think Coolbot's "claim" comments are not as meaningless as Elias states.
Can someone tell me when deadline is. I honestly don't have time to look it up at this point.

Deadline: May 1, 10PM EST

Also, remember, this IS a meta breaking game, and what you're used to about roles is supposed to be challenged. That given, a L-3 claim does seem quite premature.

[Surye]

Welcome Gorrad!

[Surye]

Although a RB is more scum in games that I've played then town. With a deadline and people piling votes I think him claiming is reasonable. However RB is a hard thing for me to swallow. I have seen town and scum RB, but most time they are scum.

Coolbot, pay attention

[Surye]

Are we back in the random voting stage for some reason?

[Surye]

Sorry, just all this pointless meta arguing and posts containing nothing but a vote just felt like it.

[Surye]

I find that insulting people tends to come from scum.

I think I could go with a Elias lynch.

Or frustrated. Though Elias really has no real reason to be that frustrated.

[Surye]

Surye I'd like to know why you've developed lock jaw since the earlier portion of this game?

Because the current bickering over silly tells like insults has drown out any real play for a while. I need to put more effort then usual into finding real content worth posting about. I'm currently at work, but I will do so tonight.

[Surye]

wow two minutes impressive, got to think on that one

Yea, I've got my Watched Topics up, but like I said, I can't put much more effort then addressing one or two posts here. And there's a lot to wade through in this game.

[Surye]

Xtoxm is my current top suspicious guy, because he keeps suggesting we lynch people on really illogical or irrelevant or just wrong reasons.

I find that insulting people tends to come from scum.

I think I could go with a Elias lynch.

ZOMG SOMEONE WAS A MEANIE HE MUST BE SCUM....!!!!

Have to agree this seems a bit of a weak argument. What say you Tommy?

I say we kill PEG...

And he's contributing nothing, I don't care if he says he never does, it's not being helpful, he should die.

Further, I've just proven that your insulting tell doesnt work for me. Its still your move.

You have not proven it. If you did it only twice as town, but every game as scum it would still classify as a scum-tell.

Ok. Well he's doing it on purpose, i'm not.

And atleast i'm attacking someone...

I don't like these posts at all, they do not feel like scumhunting.

I am also not liking the way PEG is playing, but I think everyone's right when they say PEG is playing like PEG, which just happens to be annoying and overly abrasive, oh well.

[Surye]

Same goes for Xtoxm's predecessor, camiside. No attempt at scumhunting whatsoever.

[Surye]

Same goes for Xtoxm's predecessor, camiside. No attempt at scumhunting whatsoever.

I think that argument can be made for over half the players in this game. This is officially a lurkerfest. We need to decide on which lurker to wagon to victory. My votes on Rosso.

But there is a difference between not scumhunting and not posting, and posting but not scum hunting.

Camiside was doing the first, Xtoxm is doing the second. That just rubs me wrong.

[Surye]

Wow, well, I guess there's no reason to doubt the claim yet, but

IGMEOY

.

I think Rosso is the weakest player right now, will re-read to see if that translates to the scummiest.

[Surye]

vote: Surye

lol

[Surye]

I'm not sure what to say on this thread, but Adel was seeming to shadow Ecto quite a bit. I don't like the way Shaft.ed put it, sounded way too WIFOM, but ABR is the one who put effort into stopping my wagon. Coolbot's second wagon makes sense still in hindsight, as misguided as it may have been.

A lot of people are using strange arguments in this last wagon against me, and I'm not sure how to respond.

So I really need to devote more time to this game.

Can we bandwagon Surye already?

so.... still not seeing where this is a good idea...

proven scum that started the wagon jumped off for no good reason when it got serious? How is that not good enough reason?

unvote, vote: surye

Proven town tried to derail it too. And? It wasn't until coolbot started playing bad that the wagon on me derailed. Adel's play absolved her of any responsibility if I had been lynched, and shown as town.

Still don't believe Xotxm a lick, but I'm cool with a bit more Surye lynching.

Unvote, Vote: Surye

. That's L-2 if it's six to lynch, L-3 if it's seven. Not sure which.

This makes no sense, you have a case against me or xtoxm? I can't tell.

[Surye]

Gorrad what do you think of Ecto?

Surye why do you think Adel gave up on your wagon when you were at L-1?

What do you think of MM's vote on you at that time?

Because of how hard she was railing me, when I came up town, she would be suspect number 1, and she probably forsaw the possibility she may die before me, and setup an easy mislynch. This is obvious speculation as I have no idea why she was railing me, and then forgot about me, but as I see it, her buddy buddy with ecto is no more an obvious play then her dropping off my wagon, so I'm not sure why you're focusing on that.

[Surye]

PEG is actually looking a little better to me with this recent comments...He should still not purposely contribute little though...

unvote vote Gorrad

I'm really not liking him atm.

Oh, why? Because I used logic to say EXACTLY why I don't believe your claim a lick? I'd like a case with votes plskthx.

Yea, this felt slightly like a kneejerk reaction to me too, I don't see what Xtoxm is playing at.

[Surye]

Surye who do you suspicious right now? It seems like you have been defending yourself most of the time, I haven't seen any votes or FOSes out of you today.

I don't like Xtoxm's meta plays, he seems to be really reaching. My major problem with meta is that you can say you have a solid case on it, and when it fails, easily say meta is unreliable.

Even though with the case of PEG's meta on Adel defends me, I don't like meta plays like that.

Xtoxm's seems worse then PEG in this case though, because when he is disproven, he still holds on to his weak arguments.

[Surye]

So you didn't read my post 2 above yours?

[quote="Surye]Xtoxm's seems worse then PEG in this case though, because when he is disproven, he still holds on to his weak arguments.[/quote]

[Surye]

Well that's just a matter of opinion.

Welcome to MafiaScum! Feel free to play Mafia with us.

Are you trying to earn my vote?

Do you find what I'm saying that threatening?

[Surye]

Surye, why are you not voting right now? Who are the scum?

I was asked who I suspected, the reason I had not presented this earlier is I don't have a solid enough case for a vote yet. How would I

know

who scum are?

My current thoughts:
Likely Protown:
Kison
pickemgenius
shaft.ed

Likely Scum:
Xtoxm
Machiavellian-Mafia
Tarhalindur

No Idea:
Everyone else.

If my vote went anywhere (and it might as well at this point), I think it's safest on

Vote: Xtoxm

[Surye]

Well, I guess this close to lynch, a claim is the right move.

Day Mason.

[Surye]

Well, Anytime Mason. But yea.

[Surye]

MD5Sum: c2f1512525e87124ed87a4f52f879fb3

Partner can now claim if I die before we get to that.

Xtoxm's claim is a good point, I keep forgetting that, and I still don't like his play. I would be comfortable with a Tarhalindur wagon though.

Unvote, Vote:Tarhalindur

[Surye]

One thing everyone seems to agree with is there is something off with Tar. We should push him close to lynch and see if we can squeeze something out of him.

[Surye]

I'm feeling less comfortable with a Tar lynch, actually.

I really think Gorrad is best.

What about a tar lynch makes you uncomfortable?

[Surye]

Tar has said he can clear himself, so running him up and forcing him to claim is only going to be a bad thing.

I'm not sure I see the logic in this. The point of a claim is to see if it's verifiable and consistant. If anyone could say this to stave off a wagon, what's the point?

I do not like this Xtoxm post. First he posts a vague reason he doesn't like the idea of a tar wagon, then jumps on this like he's desperate to find some logic.

[Surye]

Surye when did you start using code in mafia games?

I thought code in that sense was to signal other members, this is just a one-way function to prove shared knowledge later.

If this is against the rules or sotg, I apologize and will correct it if I can, I just thought it was okay.

[Surye]

Surye when did you start using code in mafia games?

I thought code in that sense was to signal other members, this is just a one-way function to prove shared knowledge later.

If this is against the rules or sotg, I apologize and will correct it if I can, I just thought it was okay.

No it's just that Adel talks about code claiming quite often, was curious where it came from, that's all.

I'm big into crypto, so it's a natural solution for me. I think Adel thinks like me some times (Her charts for example, I love data analysis )

[Surye]

I did miss that question, and no, the mason is not mod confirmed. My role tells me that I have reason to trust my partner, but cannot be sure. I'm not positive what this means, especially in a "Meta Breaking" game, but I've not found reason to suspect my partner yet.

[Surye]

I don't dissagree with an Ecto/Gorrad lynch, but one interesting note is the people ON Gorrad's wagon. Tar, who is the alternate wagon. Xtoxm, who is the one who defended tar in a scummy way. Kison (nothing really interesting here, he makes good anti-Gorrad points).

We've got 1 day to make this lynch, Tar or Gorrad are better then a no lynch, so lets decide. Tar's vague claim tips the scale for me personally, coupled with Xtoxm's response to it.

[Surye]

I've been constantly saying I don't like Xtoxm, but have been reluctant to discount his claim without something substantial.

This is substantial. It's a multi-person, multi-angle ordeal.

However Tar's claim was a bit early, and it quite dangerous for town I think, if the next series of lynches and actions don't play out right we can loose two very valuable power roles.

Tar's plan seems solid, should clear all 3, and Xtoxm dies in all situations he deserves it.

Unvote

I'll figure out where my vote goes tonight, I need to think about this.

[Surye]

Rosso's damn near non-playing is enough for me to want a wagon on him, but I fear with less then 20 hours left, it's going to be really close. Of the people who have not claimed, really the only people I see as lynchable are the silent speaker, Rosso Carne, and Machiavellian-Mafia, but mostly for lack of play.

I'm not positive Rosso has voted even once, so I decided to look at him in isolation, and wow, look what I find.

All of his posts:

Vote: Rosso Carne

for lurking in a certain ongoing game.

dont talk about ongoing games.

I only lurk when games suck.

Mod: camisade has not posted in this thread yet. Prod?

Rosso Carne has not voted yet... I'd like to get out of the random stage, thank you very much nicely.

nah, nothing really to vote on IMHO.

Doesn't do much in the random phase..

Mod: camisade has not posted in this thread yet. Prod?

Rosso Carne has not voted yet... I'd like to get out of the random stage, thank you very much nicely.

nah, nothing really to vote on IMHO.

Ecto has a Depeshe Mode quote in his sig... IRL that is enough for me to put machine oil in his coffee.

But how do you know it is Depesche Mode unless you're a closet listener. Case closed!

pwned

EEE

PWNT!

Shameless bandwagoning noted

damnit you broke the chain.

lets ylnch camisade while hes gone

Spam Spam Spam.

wow, this thread is useless.

can we please get some real arguments for me to derail besides the usual Adel being the new BM?

dont like Adel right now.

Makes a call for arguments, providing absolutely none, and blindly attacks Adel (pathetic attempt at distancing?)

someone cite a coolbot vote reason please for me.

Again, seeking others to do the work without contributing so much as a scrap.

someone cite a coolbot vote reason please for me.

I'll explain your vote:

You don't feel like reading, so to contribute to the game without the effort, you are going to put Coolbot at L-1 so he can claim and we can all decide to lynch him or not. Simon says.

uh no, i saw no reason to vote him and was derailing this bandwagon.

youre on of those that needs to think before you talk. otherwise, the words jsut come out sounding like stupid-ass.

This is a pointless post, half of it is an insult, half of it is another call for others to spoon feed him.

why is there not a wagon on Adel.

seriously, a post every five seconds and absolutely zero content.

that gal oughta be at least to L-3 by now.

More Adel distancing, also another hypocritical post about content.

Rosso, you aren't even voting anyone. If you really want a bandwagon, take action and vote. No one will care otherwise.


I agree that Tar ignoring Albert is odd, especially considering he was the one who said Surye was at L-1 to get people to unvote.

meh, not my style.

Voting is not your style? What game do you think you are playing?

CoolBot, since Surye is not now in imminent danger of lynch, why do you continue to insist that he claim?

Initially, I was trying to get people to stop unvoting him. That didn't work, and he hasn't given me any reason to unvote him. Finally, I find people who avoid claims don't have one. Therefore, he's my default vote until he does.

meh, not my style.

Then what is your style? Because right now it looks like you're trying to foment a lynch with taking the risk of actually voting the person.

I'm attacking them. If you're too lazy to read posts past votes, then you ought to not be playing mafia.

Pathetic excuse for not voting.

Attacks without votes are meaningless and are usually ignored. Trying to get a bandwagon started without voting is often a waste of time. Why did you attack Adel without taking the risk of a vote? The most likely explanation I have is that you're scum trying to get her lynched without having to take responsibility for starting the wagon. Why else would you do it?

so youre saying you seriosuly dont read posts, you only play based on voting records?

I'm attacking adel, there is a clear record of it. if she is lynched without me voting for her, then read the damn posts and youll know i was still against her, jsut didnt vote at the drop of a dime.

Your posts have clearly had 0 content, you mentioned adel twice with absolutely NO logic or reason whatsoever.

haha meta.,

it looks like meat.

Spam.

I liekthis game. i also believ adel needs to be lynched. =D

Spam and adel distancing.

im happy with either wagon still. please get them going.

But still does not vote, or provide why either wagon has value.

MMk. I honeslty don't think that the coolbot wagon is anywhere near the place to look for scum. He did some scummy shit, flat out, and that means people SHOULD lynch him. I'm always an advocate of lynching someone scummy and standing by it.

On the other hand, I don't like the last votes on the wagon. They seem really of the idea of "if I hammah and he turns up town I'll get attacked." If they weren't as reprehensive, great, but those votes took FOREVER to pile on.

Thuis, I support a gorrad lynch.

First hint of any reasoning or logic from Rosso. However, when you look at it, he's not saying a whole lot. Basically the first paragraph reads as "I am glad town got lynched for poor play, even if I knew it wasn't scum" What?

Votes took forever to pile on? You never voted ONCE.

You supported a gorrad lynch? You never voted ONCE.

I'm getting replaced in my other games, but im gonna stick it for this one.

I'll get to a thourough reread tomorrow and figure out who needs to be lynched and get this day moving =D

Here's hoping we get some Rosso content! ...

I read through and I'm not EXACTLY sure why surye is being wagoned. if someone got it all in one place that would be great.

Based on D1 purely, im also willing to support a gorrad wagon, maybe.

Oh, damn, nope, guess not. More begging for others to do work for him, and another blind attack at gorrad.




And that was every single post of his in this game. Not one game worthy post, not one vote, and Adel distancing.

If anyone in this game deserved a vote, it's him.

Vote: Rosso Carne

[Surye]

I highly doubt it, but I had a thought. What if Rosso has a no-voting post restriction? Anyone have meta with Rosso and this kind of behavior? I'm still happy with a Rosso lynch after my analysis, but I wanted to bring the thought up if anyone else had any input.

[Surye]

Possible, I wouldn't bet on it. With deadline aproaching, I'm ok with the night plan.

Unvote, Vote: Rosso Carne

Yea, even with that restriction he's been less then useless for no good reason.

[Surye]

I seem to remember Rosso playing like this before, but I'm not certain. Anyways, I'm gonna be gone until Monday.

We've got like 8 hours left in the day and you're not going to vote? Noted.

[Surye]

Unless Gaurdian put in an SK cop with no SK. I can see him doing that, actually.

Funny, we've been saying that possibility all along, and now, just before the deadline, you setup a fallback.

You better not be lying, it will be pretty obvious if you do.

[Surye]

That's only 4 votes on Rosso I think. Open question to those not voting:

Why is a nolynch better then a Rosso lynch?

[Surye]

I want a lynch, but I do NOT want a Rosso lynch (Rosso is acting like Rosso, who would be better off being investigated and/or vigged, and appears to be inactive to boot). I strongly believe that there are multiple mafia on that wagon (probably shaft.ed and Kison).

In the interests of getting a lynch,

Unvote

1) You posted it after the deadline.
2) Your unvote does not matter, he would have been lynched anyways by my count.

[Surye]

Kison, your new avatar is freaking me out. For the record.

[Surye]

Vote: Gorrad

I think it's important to stick to the plan, not doing so would be allowing an SK to create a WIFOM.

Welp I can see both Gorrad the vig and Gorrad the SK wanting to kill Xtoxm. Seems the town has the lynch to waste to test out mod shenanigans and Gorrad's self vote feels like an "a real SK wouldn't do that" type of ploy.

Much like that is getting close to

[Surye]

Note, if Tar had unvoted before the deadline, no-lynch and Rosso lynch would have been tied.

FOS: Tar

[Surye]

Note, if Tar had unvoted before the deadline, no-lynch and Rosso lynch would have been tied.

FOS: Tar

I don't think your math is right, and Not voting is not the same as No Lynching.

Ah, I misread the deadline rule, my apologies.

[Surye]

Warning "Setup Speculation": One prime place for meta-breaking to happen could be in role-weapon associations, just thought about that today.

[Surye]

Well, we have plenty of time, so lets just go with the idea of finding two other candidates, and then if nothing presents it self clearly, or if more against Gorrad comes up, we can just lynch him. Either way we need more activity to move forward.

[Surye]

EBWOP: And in line with that idea,

Unvote

however, I would like to say I don't think Gorrad is a good person to keep alive, but if we lynch someone tonight, he'll be just as likely to hit scum as we will at night as a townie, and we can lynch him tomorrow. My only fear is if he is an SK, he knows even if he follows the night kill directive tonight, he must die tomorrow, so I don't know if it's in his best interest to try to hit town or mafia if he doesn't follow it. My guess is he would follow it for sure on the off chance someone pushes the vig idea again, so letting him live risks that if he is an SK.

It's a hard call. But what I've come down to is this, in any case, he will follow the directed kill (most likely) and he must die tomorrow on policy. Or we could lynch him today and not risk a double town kill.

[Surye]

Well, we have plenty of time, so lets just go with the idea of finding two other candidates, and then if nothing presents it self clearly, or if more against Gorrad comes up, we can just lynch him. Either way we need more activity to move forward.

I say we examine those resistant to the Rosso lynch. Seems like a logical place to start.

Good idea, doing so now myself.

[Surye]

I seem to remember Rosso playing like this before, but I'm not certain.
Anyways, I'm gonna be gone until Monday.

Already stated I did not like this post, it seems like he was hoping his non-vote would prevent a deadline lynch, and he setup an alibi for not having to take responsibility. Note it's wednesday and we have yet to hear from him.

I'm liking Tar right now. If he were scum, he would have had a prime oppertunity to bus an already doomed buddy, but instead he helped prevent a no-lynch while not just "going with the wagon".

FoS: Elias

[Surye]

I seem to remember Rosso playing like this before, but I'm not certain.
Anyways, I'm gonna be gone until Monday.

Already stated I did not like this post, it seems like he was hoping his non-vote would prevent a deadline lynch, and he setup an alibi for not having to take responsibility. Note it's wednesday and we have yet to hear from him.

I'm liking Tar right now. If he were scum, he would have had a prime oppertunity to bus an already doomed buddy, but instead he helped prevent a no-lynch while not just "going with the wagon".

FoS: Elias

Then again Tar posted when it would not have mattered, but I still get some pro-town feel from it.

[Surye]

I'd like to hear from Elias soon.

[Surye]

and I choose the silent speaker

vote: the silent speaker

Hmm... any particular motivation? I see his isolated posts makes up less then a page, so I may do another full rundown in a bit tonight.

[Surye]

Hmm... after reading silent in isolation, he actually comes off as quite town to me. I'm still looking at Elias.

[Surye]

Tar, shaft.ed, and silent are top on my town list right now. Kison and peg are pretty close on that list too.

Top scum suspects are Elias, Gorrad(SK), and TS.

Neutral on MM, don't really like his activity level though.

[Surye]

PEG, you've seen me as scum in WEM Mafia. Do you honestly believe that I'd claim what I did as a SK? No. I'd claim something outlandish, cool, and a lot less obvious than Overeager Vig.

Scummy use of selfmeta imo.

[Surye]

PEG, you've seen me as scum in WEM Mafia. Do you honestly believe that I'd claim what I did as a SK? No. I'd claim something outlandish, cool, and a lot less obvious than Overeager Vig.

Not to mention backing down on his position that he should die, and appealing to someone not participating in that discussion at all.

[Surye]

Mod: Can we get a prod on Elias?

Been a week since we heard from him, and 5 days since he said he'd be here.

[Surye]

I'm here.

Then you can answer why you preferred a nolynch to a rosso lynch yesterday?

[Surye]

Here's a question for Surye : If I recall correctly, you said you and your mason pal weren't confirmed Town. Since this is meta-breaking, have you two discussed the possibility that one of you are scum? I'd personally say mafia-town mason pairs are less conventional than town-town.

We have discussed it a bit, but the discussion essentially came down to a WIFOM, and we're just assuming we're town until we have reason to expect otherwise.

[Surye]

I'm not sure what to take from this, but I suspect there might scum in this quarel, both are using loose logic and overreacting in turn.

Kison: His point I believe is that when you voted him, we are to assume it's a researched, well thought out vote. By you forgetting he was a cop, it makes the vote look more targeted and oppertunistic.

[Surye]

Well, we seem rather nowhere right now other then walking on eggshells about Gorrad's fate. I still like the idea of an Elias wagon.

Vote: Elias

I want to push some stuff out of him.

[Surye]

TS is a much better wagon IMO

uvote, vote:ToasterStrudel

I can live with that, she jumped on the Elias wagon without a word, and I already stated that I find her scum-likely. Maybe this will get us some answers (but I would like to return to Elias at some point, I don't want him to get off that easy).

Unvote, Vote: ToasterStrudel

[Surye]

If y'all can't agree on a target for me to vig tonight, I'm targetting Shaft.ed. If you don't want me to, better start coming up with names.

Elias or tss are much better choices I think.

[Surye]

Of those, we know that Surye, Tar, Gorrad, and PEG are not the last mafiae. I know that I'm not, and I surmise that Mach is not, which leaves four people, three of them named above. (The fourth, shaft.ed, is one I want to save for tomorrow and the next day*, because I feel there is a significant case waiting to be made and it deserves a full day's attention.) On the basis of game size I posit that there are two remaining mafiae, so the deaths of two will either expose the last two as obvious, or reveal which person the last scum was defending which in turn will enable a sounder case against that scum.

Where do you get PEG and Surye being cleared? Sure Surye claimed mason but he hasn't posted whether his partner, and thus himself, is a confirmed innocent. And yes PEG hinted at being his partner but I never saw a genuine claim. Did I miss something?

I've stated multiple times it's not confirmed.

[Surye]

Well, I see no reason not to believe TS, wish she hadn't been lurking in plain sight.

Okay, I stated before I wanted a Elias wagon, and shaft.ed distracted it. Lets have it now.

Unvote, Vote: Elias

Gorad-Vote: TSS.

I think shaft.ed is town, and I think he has the right idea.

[Surye]

6 hours 'til deadline .

Does that warning come with a vote count?

[Surye]

shaft.ed, why are you not voting Elias?

[Surye]

The only thing I don't like about the MM prospect is that he's gone until Wed, is that after the deadline would hit? Not a big fan of lynching someone that can't defend themselves especially with all the times we've been trying to run up power roles in this game.

You list as a vig-able target, but don't want to lynch him, because he cannot defend himself? This really doesn't sit well with me. :/ Explain please?

[Surye]

The only thing I don't like about the MM prospect is that he's gone until Wed, is that after the deadline would hit? Not a big fan of lynching someone that can't defend themselves especially with all the times we've been trying to run up power roles in this game.

You list as a vig-able target, but don't want to lynch him, because he cannot defend himself? This really doesn't sit well with me. :/ Explain please?

I think he's just as likely as TSS to be scum. There's more evidence against him than TSS, it's just he happens to be VLA at deadline. I think those balance eachother out.

I'm not liking MM at all myself, my read on him was poor for a while, but the outlined analysis makes a lot of sense I think.

I just didn't like how you seemed to treat a lynch and a directed vig as different things. But I think it's of no consequence.

[Surye]

I'm going to hammer myself to punish you all. Do not expect a claim.

Discuss.

Before you really explained how busy you were you posted this, which is one of the primary reasons I kept my vote on you during discussions.

And I was waiting for your contributions to the game, I just lost a mini to lurkerscum, so perhaps I was a bit sensitive on that.

[Surye]

Point is moot now though, I am not liking the idea of a Kison or shaft.ed lynch, I've not seen anything all that convincing.

Elias, your comment about Rosso's play elsewhere would not be seen as defensive, but it when you combine it with the lack of a vote on him that makes it very defensive in mine, and other's I'm sure, eyes.

[Surye]

Also Surye I never saw if this was clarified, but on the off chance that you or your partner end up dead, were you mod-confirmed innocents to eachother?

This is the fourth time I have replied to this And no, we are not mod-confirmed. My role says that I believe him to be town, but do not know for sure.

[Surye]

Actually, the most important thing on my mind was getting in a vote under the wire to lynch someone in my top few. But it's not playstyle that put you on the short list, if that makes you feel any better.

Gorrad, if you kill me, when I come up town I want you to push shaft.ed. Push him hard, since I will no longer be able to.

Gorrad is dying tomorrow. Period. He will not be pushing anything. If he's pro-town, he'll understand, if he's SK, tough shit. In case I don't make it to tomorrow, no one forget that.

[Surye]

I just noticed an MM post from Day 3 that makes me much more suspicious about him:

GorradSK is in full desperation mode now, so he should be the lynch today. But I agree with shaft.ed that we need to have everyone post before lynching Gorrad. There's 10 alive, so it's 6 to lynch and Gorrad already has 4 votes.

Does anyone else see the problem with this post? Here's a hint: Tarhalindur Standard Tell (also, the reasoning for the Gorrad lynch looks more like "hey, I get to live another day" than "hey, I think Gorrad is SK"... wait, that's a bigger problem than even the Standard Tell...)

MM, claim or die.

He should claim or die (tomorrow). Lets not forget the math and the danger of Gorrad surviving.

[Surye]

PEG seems to be the only non-claimed player. I am willing to go before or after him, though it seems pretty obvious what his claim will be.

You go first

[Surye]

PEG seems to be the only non-claimed player. I am willing to go before or after him, though it seems pretty obvious what his claim will be.

You go first

Well since I'm certain PEG's claiming mason

, I'll go first and assert my vanilla townie goodness.

I don't like your wording here. Anyone else find the bolded bit pretty scummy?

How so? It's the only claim left, and we've both been bread crumbing it.

[Surye]

Gorrad, are you pointing out shaft.ed's obviously null post to weasel out of your lynch today?

[Surye]

Vote: Gorrad

Lets not lose sight. I know that we have a couple things to do today, but I'm getting this ball rolling.

Quick question for Tar, is there any reason to believe you are definitely not naive? You might have said you got a guilty, but I don't remember.

[Surye]

Vote: Gorrad

Lets not lose sight. I know that we have a couple things to do today, but I'm getting this ball rolling.

Quick question for Tar, is there any reason to believe you are definitely not naive? You might have said you got a guilty, but I don't remember.

Quite the opposite: I'm assuming I am Naive until proven otherwise.

Surviving innocents: Toaster Strudel (should NOT have investigated her in retrospect), shaft.ed

MM, would you mind investigating Surye? If there's a scum in the Masons (which I consider increasingly probable), he's probably it.

I want the results of MM's daycop before we head into night. No vote for now for exactly that reason.

Any reason you'd pick me over PEG?

[Surye]

Vote: Gorrad

Lets not lose sight. I know that we have a couple things to do today, but I'm getting this ball rolling.

Quick question for Tar, is there any reason to believe you are definitely not naive? You might have said you got a guilty, but I don't remember.

Quite the opposite: I'm assuming I am Naive until proven otherwise.

Surviving innocents: Toaster Strudel (should NOT have investigated her in retrospect), shaft.ed

Also, anyone notice the subtle but important contradiction here?

[Surye]

Now that Mini 547 has been abandoned... because PEG is playing to his town meta (I killed him for playing the exact same way he's played here as scum in 547).

Single game meta FTL. Just saying.

[Surye]

Gorrad is not Mafia but has to be lynched, TS is confirmed innocent.

Shaft.ed, you say the contradiction means nothing, but he continues with it, and attempts to make game altering assertions using that contradiction.

I'm not accusing Tar, I'm just not liking a string of really poor plays by him. And the metabreaking aspect of this game has not slipped my mind, and a day cop instead of a night cop would fit that, and no one would counterclaim. It's not impossible.

That said, I have no reason not to trust TS, and am pretty convinced she's who she says she is.

[Surye]

Gorrad is not Mafia but has to be lynched, TS is confirmed innocent.

Shaft.ed, you say the contradiction means nothing, but he continues with it, and attempts to make game altering assertions using that contradiction.

I'm not accusing Tar, I'm just not liking a string of really poor plays by him. And the metabreaking aspect of this game has not slipped my mind, and a day cop instead of a night cop would fit that, and no one would counterclaim. It's not impossible.

That said, I have no reason not to trust TS, and am pretty convinced she's who she says she is.

I know what you're talking about, but there are other reasons for trusting Tar as town. I'd rather talk about them at the dawn of the new day so mafia do not have an optimal target this evening.

Okay, fair enough. It's a moot point for today anyways, and I was mostly just thinking aloud.

Today Gorrad needs to die. And probably pretty soon.

[Surye]

Gorrad is not Mafia but has to be lynched, TS is confirmed innocent.

Shaft.ed, you say the contradiction means nothing, but he continues with it, and attempts to make game altering assertions using that contradiction.

I'm not accusing Tar, I'm just not liking a string of really poor plays by him. And the metabreaking aspect of this game has not slipped my mind, and a day cop instead of a night cop would fit that, and no one would counterclaim. It's not impossible.

That said, I have no reason not to trust TS, and am pretty convinced she's who she says she is.

I know what you're talking about, but there are other reasons for trusting Tar as town. I'd rather talk about them at the dawn of the new day so mafia do not have an optimal target this evening.

Okay, fair enough. It's a moot point for today anyways, and I was mostly just thinking aloud.

Today Gorrad needs to die. And probably pretty soon.

Why soon? Lotsa time for talking. Do you not like talking?

I do, I've been doing it. You should try it.

[Surye]

Guess not?

[Surye]

Allrighty then. So I think Tar's Cop claim followed by the lack of a NK follwed by a Doc claim indicates either Tar is a Cop or the scum did not NK in order to make Tar look like a cop. Comments on which would be appreciated.

If Tar is a townsided cop (which I find highly likely) that means we have either MM fakeclaiming paranoid daycop with a scum-mason, or we have two of the ballsiest scum I've ever seen claiming a mason pair with MM being a real paranoid daycop. I tend to lean the former.

Option #3: There is only one scum surviving, and his name is Machivellian Mafia.

Option #4: You're the Godfather, and MM is your partner.

Option #5: You're neutral, and MM is the last Mafia.

Oh, by the way, I'm Sane, and I'm pretty damn sure that at least one of the masons is town. After all, I just got a guilty on MM.

Vote: Machivellian Mafia
LOCK ON: Machivellian Mafia

Well, if you got a guilty now, I don't see why to doubt your sanity, investigation, or vote.

Vote: Machivellian Mafia

L-1, Peg and MM should check in before the hammer.

PEG or shaft.ed must be our other scum, I've had a pretty strong town feeling from shaft.ed. But I've not seen PEG do anything particularly scummy.

Godfather idea is interesting. And I didn't particularly like the WIFOM shaft.ed setup in the first post.

But I guess given the current situation, PEG is slightly more suspicious then shaft.ed to me, simply on account of him gliding through the game, and seeming to hinge himself on being mason partner by contributing even less with every post.

[Surye]

Now that Mini 547 has been abandoned... because PEG is playing to his town meta (I killed him for playing the exact same way he's played here as scum in 547).

Single game meta FTL. Just saying.

Now that it's become more relevant, have you seen how he plays as scum? Because if not, you have zero meta.

[Surye]

Unvote

MM brings up some good points, don't want anyone at L-1 right yet.

[Surye]

OK I've been thinking about this over the weekend and I believe that lynching between the masons is the correct play. If Tar and MM were scum partners, Tar's guilty would not be placed on MM as a bus, but would instead be used in an attempt to take out the last townie in LyLo. Thus one of the masons must be scum.

PEG would you care log'ing in to tell us which of the masons is scum?

Mod can we get a PEG prod/replacement please?

This is an excellent point, MM/Tar scum pair does not make sense. Either MM/Peg or MM/shaft.ed or Peg/shaft.ed is the scumpair. Or. Tar/shaft.ed or Tar/Peg.

shaft.ed and peg are in 3 of the possibilites, more then tar or mm. Straight statistics say they are the best bet, and honestly, were the people I already stated that I am suspicious of them both, so the statistics just confirm that.

Tar needs to post about his meta claim.

shaft.ed, who do you trust more, MM or Tar?

[Surye]

I trust Tar a bit more than MM at the moment. MM has been growing on me however.

Same question, regarding me and peg.

[Surye]

EBWOP: Computer malfunction, disregard that.

You gonna come back and make a real post?

[Surye]

I thought MM was a day cop, a paranoid day cop for that matter... At least by his claim.

[Surye]

I thought MM was a day cop, a paranoid day cop for that matter... At least by his claim.

you weren't supposed to say anything. It was a poor trap to test his claim.

Doh. Well, it was silly But sorry for spoiling it.

[Surye]

Deadline is exactly 1 week's time from now.

Yay and the town is lurking to victory!

Seriously, what happened.

[Surye]

Now, a far more important note:

Scum can win by deadline lynch by voting for me shortly before deadline hits. They can also win by stalling into No Lynch and killing me tonight.

As it now stands, I may need ,to switch to pushing a Pickem lynch on the grounds that if Pickem is town we've probably already lost (to shaft.ed/MM) because we can't lynch scum today. I will consider this overnight and post again tomorrow.

I'm pretty inclined to believe shaft.ed is town still. Your case against MM is pretty good. Given that, I'm thinking PEG/MM have to be it. I'd be willing to lynch PEG if that's what you and shaft.ed decide is best, as either is good to me (nothing particularly special about MM, I'm guessing he's a Goon).

[Surye]

Also, MM, would you be willing to lynch PEG? Any reason you see not to?

[Surye]

Their lack of activity leads me to be more suspicious of lurking to the deadline.

The only reason I bring up PEG over MM is that I feel pretty strong about them needing to be the combo, but that I am less comfortable lynching a claimed cop. Though if he's paranoid, then I suppose that doesn't mean much. Waiting on MM's answer to my question.

shaft.ed, tar, if everyone were L-1 right now, who would you want hammered.?

[Surye]

Their lack of activity leads me to be more suspicious of lurking to the deadline.

The only reason I bring up PEG over MM is that I feel pretty strong about them needing to be the combo, but that I am less comfortable lynching a claimed cop. Though if he's paranoid, then I suppose that doesn't mean much. Waiting on MM's answer to my question.

shaft.ed, tar, if everyone were L-1 right now, who would you want hammered.?

[Surye]

I'm 99.9% sure that MM

What's the 0.01%?

The odds that he is a Paranoid Day Cop Miller?

Talk about metabreaking, haha.

[Surye]

Well, incase it comes to deadline and this inactivity is still ruling the game,

Vote: PEG

as I've stated, it only makes sense for him to be scum.

[Surye]

I'd rather lynch MM at this point. Is anyone ever going to look at my post with numbers in it?

I looked at it. The problem with is that it assumes we only have raw statistics to work from. But there are many unquantifiable aspects to this situation. All your numbers are saying is that there is scum in us 3, and them 2. But even this isn't 100%, as maybe both cops are valid, and the scum is you and peg. As you said, cop bus is very unlikely here, so the odds that if both scum are on one side or the other is higher on the 3 man side. Also, I trust you're town more then I trust peg, but I'm not 100% convinced MM is scum. So for me, all the overlap lies on PEG, which is why I feel safest there.

[Surye]

And PEG if you're town you now know my alignment. Not that you'll ever read this because you're lurking to death.

Hmm.. that's a good point. Very good actually. So Peg + MM it is. Or Peg + Tar.

Again, where's the overlap?

[Surye]

And PEG if you're town you now know my alignment. Not that you'll ever read this because you're lurking to death.

Hmm.. that's a good point. Very good actually. So Peg + MM it is. Or Peg + Tar.

Again, where's the overlap?

Hmm... Unless it's you + peg of course. Sorry, spoke too soon.

[Surye]

And PEG if you're town you now know my alignment. Not that you'll ever read this because you're lurking to death.

Hmm.. that's a good point. Very good actually. So Peg + MM it is. Or Peg + Tar.

Again, where's the overlap?

Hmm... Unless it's you + peg of course. Sorry, spoke too soon.

Sorry for the triple post, but the simulpost threw off my thought train

My point is that this eliminates shaft.ed+tar and shaft.ed+mm, which highlights peg.

[Surye]

And PEG if you're town you now know my alignment. Not that you'll ever read this because you're lurking to death.

Hmm.. that's a good point. Very good actually. So Peg + MM it is. Or Peg + Tar.

Again, where's the overlap?

Hmm... Unless it's you + peg of course. Sorry, spoke too soon.

which is impossible given the conflicting cop claims.

Not true at all. The possibility of GF is not eliminated is it?

[Surye]

And PEG if you're town you now know my alignment. Not that you'll ever read this because you're lurking to death.

Hmm.. that's a good point. Very good actually. So Peg + MM it is. Or Peg + Tar.

Again, where's the overlap?

Hmm... Unless it's you + peg of course. Sorry, spoke too soon.

which is impossible given the conflicting cop claims.

Not true at all. The possibility of GF is not eliminated is it?

How did Tar get the guilty on MM?

Ah, good point, sorry I missed that. Lets get some others in this discussion.

Unvote

while we are talking so no hammer happens.

[Surye]

Okay, it looks like I was overlooking some issues with possible combinations, and your numbers now make sense shaft.ed. I'm willing to lynch MM, though I do still think peg has to be scum. Mostly because now that we know you + peg can't be, you're clearly not protecting a buddy, and add that to your past town play, I am confident you're town.

Tar, I know you wanted this too, so I think we can reach a consensus.

Vote: MM

It'll be curious is MM tries to get a vote back on peg or not...

[Surye]

That's the problem there really aren't any "others" besides us. If you're scum you've done a nice job of snowing me. I think from your perspective you ought to be able to see I'm confirmed as town. Actually am I confirmed from any perspective? I don't like to get ahead of myself because I always screw these things up but:

shaft.ed + mason cannot be scum because of Tar's guilty.

shaft.ed + MM/Tar cannot be scum because I would have hammered PEG. So That makes me confirmed?

So if we lynch right from the masons, the other mason dies during the Night Phase and I'm left to pick between the cops.

If we lynch right from the cops, the other cop dies during the night phase and I'm left to pick between the masons. Note that if Tar had investigated a mason this scenario would obviously be the correct one as it only requires one proper lynch.

Final option is that MM is an insane cop and not paranoid and has thus cleared PEG by his investigation. Is it likely he would be revealed as specifically "insane cop" or just as cop upon death? This would also require a Tar lynch to be the correct choice. And Surye would then have to bus his partner something that seems unreasonable as PEG is not here EVER!! I think this route ought to be abandoned.

That makes you confirmed, or cocky

But yea, like I said, from my perspective, if we lynch the right cop tonight, we win, as peg will be all that's left. From your perspective, you'd have to choose between me and peg. I think that gives us a fairly good chance to win. The only issue I can see is if you don't want to choose PEG, I don't have much to build a case on him, as he's been non-existant this entire game.

[Surye]

Due to MM's and PEG's chronic inactivity and in both cases pretty much request for replacement,

I am going to extend deadline indefinitely, and replace both of them

. In principle I strongly dislike deviating from the planned auto-deadlines, but in this case I don't think that two players lack of access should help determine the outcome of the game in its final stages.

I believe stark and Skruffs will be able to replace, but I will replace in about a day from now; letting two players replace into a situation that was supposed to be right before deadline seems unfair. If either of them will be unable to replace, I'll look for another until I find one. I may or may not allow roles replacing in who can talk at night to communicate, and they may or may not have access to previous communication.

Once they replace in, expect deadline to be around a week.

Unvote

then.

[Surye]

Badass people are voting for me. *roll*

If me needing replaced needs to happen for all to be happy then go nuts.

Why do you come to this forum again?

[Surye]

And PEG if you're town you now know my alignment. Not that you'll ever read this because you're lurking to death.

Hmm.. that's a good point. Very good actually. So Peg + MM it is. Or Peg + Tar.

Again, where's the overlap?

Hmm... Unless it's you + peg of course. Sorry, spoke too soon.

which is impossible given the conflicting cop claims.

First things first, why would PEG know that shaft.ed is town?

If PEG was scum, for obvious reasons.
If shaft.ed was scum, he would have hammered ftw.

Unless you suspect two factions left?

[Surye]

And if you do, I'll remind you, look at the kill history. All kills point to one scum group left. Though, I'm not sure where the assumption that there are 2 scum left for sure, but it's been a long day at work.

[Surye]

Why are you saying that it's an assumption that there rae two scum left, when you were just saying that (I think) there were two scum left?

Again, I will read, but I'd like to see a run down of the claimed cops claimed results. Presumably everyone has mass claimed, right?

Because I said it, and then after I said it I realized that the town had been going on an assumption that I did not remember being concluded. It's an open question to Tar and shaft.ed if they know why we've been assuming that.

[Surye]

Well three mafia in a game of this size would seem horribly unbalanced for the town.

Yes, and the game would be over, my point is how do we know there's more then one? I may be obvious, I'm just not remembering it. We know there's at least one, but what ensures two other then balance speculation?

Just wondering as it effects the math we've been discussion. Though assuming LyLo is better then not at this point.

[Surye]

Well three mafia in a game of this size would seem horribly unbalanced for the town.

Yes, and the game would be over, my point is how do we know there's more then one? I may be obvious, I'm just not remembering it. We know there's at least one, but what ensures two other then balance speculation?

Just wondering as it effects the math we've been discussion. Though assuming LyLo is better then not at this point.

Umm only two mafia have died.

We're talking about live mafia, not dead ones.

[Surye]

yeah 2 + 1 = 3 which is totally unbalanced in a game of this size with this many power roles. Unless Tar is the last scum, that might be balanced but I would doubt it.

I said three mafia would be unblanced, you said the game would be over. Bit confusing there as it seems like you're saying three have died.

Oh, I see what you mean, I misscounted something I think. Anyways, I just wanted to make sure we were assuming 4 scum on balance reasons. I'm comfortable with that anyhow, considering it's better to err on the side of caution.

[Surye]

So we've gone in a circle, and we're still at pretty much we have a scum mason, and a scum "cop". Tar has built a pretty convincing case on MM, and MM's only saving grace has been his breadcrumbing, but something's still not right with him.

So I still say the two replacements are likely scum, and as we've realized, both are equally a good lynch mathematically. I say we go with the dirty cop, as it comes down to convincing shaft.ed really, and if I am telling the truth, then all we have is speculation that stark and Tar are not playing a gambit. If Tar is telling the truth, then we also have his investigation to solidify the choice.

Stark is the right play here. I'll give them a chance to chime in, but expect a vote on stark unless something really big happens.

Also, two replacements that start with S is really hard

[Surye]

Dissapointed our deadline extension didn't insight discussion

Might be V/LA for the weekend, fyi.

[Surye]

Dissapointed our deadline extension didn't insight discussion

OK replacements. We know you have a lot of work to do, but you were in the default position for lynch. Please do something or we will likely just go along with the default.

I'm very much not liking Skruffs not posting his results. If the claim were true it's a simple matter of PM'ing the mod.

I think you mean Stark?

[Surye]

I'm not really sure who you could investigate, everyone know who scum is from their perspective except shaft.ed, and MM already established as paranoid.

[Surye]

MOD: When exactly is the deadline again?

[Surye]

First, I'm male ;P

Second, your second post is built on a poor, single game meta, which Tar later pointed out is in fact useless. You also said he's playing to his town meta. Is he not playing his scum meta? You seem to over look this very important question. This defense is very weak.

Third, good job doing research on me, but I never made it into endgame in Realistic. This is a key point, because the dichotomy in this game is due to a series of observations that have setup this as the only likely path. In that game, it was early enough that MANY possibilities existed. If you look at what confirmed shaft.ed for me, and why I don't think MM/Tar makes sense, and why we think there are 2 left, then you see the reason for the either or. Your analysis v.s. my behavior in Realistic is far too simplistic.

And I don't like meta too much, and defending meta is even worse as there is no way to not WIFOM it often. Sure I bussed in Dynamite, but I didn't build a case.

[Surye]

Also, RE: Two factions. The NK's don't add up then, and the balance would be insane. I seriously discount two factions remaining.

[Surye]

And if you don't like my Dichotomy, what would you propose and scum pairings?

[Surye]

Thank you very much, this will give the replacements time to get their full bearings.

[Surye]

Surye and Skruffs, on a percentage scale how confident does the wording in your PM make you that your mason partner should be town? Just the wording.

What's the point? I've already stated that I "think he's town, but don't know for sure" from the wording. I don't know how to apply a number to that. My guess is he'll lie about his wording, or you'll probably get the same thing.

[Surye]

Allright, sorry to drag replacements into this, but seeing as nothing has changed any there's little new information being generated.

unvote vote: stark

Agreed.

Unvote (if any), Vote: Stark

Already stated why he is the only play for today.

[Surye]

My case is simple, PEG lurked to end-game, and contributed nothing. Skruffs came in, used a series of fallacies to try to invalidate our conclusion on the remaining scum possibilities, attacked me with extremely weak meta, defended PEG with even weaker meta, and wouldn't vote Stark because he was trying to setup the possibility that there could be an alternative to the false cop/mason scum pair we so clearly laid out.

doctor?

Looks like he fixed it, that would have been a really confusing outcome, haha.

[Surye]

vote: Skruffs

with full confidence.

[Surye]

I'm going to Comic-Con Thur-Sun, so I'll be likely V/LA for most of that time.

[Surye]

I have some time before I head out to the con, so I'll pick apart some of this nonsense, and get back to the rest if I can tonight. I wanted to make sure I wasn't completely absent in the last days of the deadline.

Okay.
First, you are asking me to explain PEG's meta on Adel, which I can't do. The only game I played in with ADel, she got herself instantly lynched in a nightless game (Open 19). PEG's defense is based on his own experience with Adel, and is not based on his experience with Surye at all.

Sureye officially 'ended' the random vote stage by voting Adel, because Adel voted someone for not random voting. This is an iffy vote, because while it supposedly indicates that Surye is suspicious, there is no reasoning behind it, so he can change his vote later on.
Even though Adel accumulated another vote right after that, he joke-votes Surye in response, completely ignoring the 'call out' on his vote on Camisade.

we figured out that you are scum. Me and ecto and PEG share a brain, and we always share alignment.

This might have been a multilayered breadcrumb for later on in the game; if PEG had gone after Surye or expressed suspicon of him, they could have killed PEG and Adel would have the option of saying he was masons with PEG. On the other hand, if Adel was lynched early, it makes it more likely that ecto (the vig) and PEG (the other mason) are more suspicious.

Continuing on: (Reading as I type through, so expect my train of thought to change as I read more and more)

Immediately after this, Adel posts a nonsense quote from Bladerunner. Surye's response?

I've seen things you wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

I don't know how I could vote for someone who randomly quotes Blade Runner. But some how I will pull through.

Basically Surye voted Adel for acting scummy "as a warning", Adel responded with nonsense, Surye laughs, and then (My guess is) both will 'move on' and forget about it.

This first bit is about some day one spam. I don't know why he thinks that me enjoying something from someone I thought made a scummy move means anything, especially since it didn't actually effect my vote or anythings. Grasping for straws already.

Adel pushes more nonsense, Guardian says "Spam", and Surye initiates a new line of thought with:

we figured out that you are scum. Me and ecto and PEG share a brain, and we always share alignment.

Interesting that PEG is associated with a group here, when his vote lies on ABR currently.

Albert[3] (pickemgenius, Elias_the_thief, CoolBot)

This was from the vote count immediately before.

PEG says "STFU", his only response to Adel's breadcrumbing, which is unfortunately ignorant of him. Surye moves on with:

Meta-history and spam seem to be dominating this game.

Time to get down to business, anyone see anything particularly suspicious so far in the game? All I have been able to see is the PEG/Adel/Ecto (as that one was thrown in my face ) and the ABR/PEG connection. Both of these are probably useless.

See? He calls Adel out, allows Adel to make a bunch of gibberish, then moves attention elsewhere. Also, he is pushing the idea that PEG is scum, with Adel (because Adel breadcrumbed it) as well as the ABR/PEG thing (Which I don't get hte reference of). What's interesting is that Surye's vote is currently on Adel but he completely dismisses Adel's 'gibberish' response to being called out and instead takes Adel's cue and tries to get focus on PEG.

Later on:

FoS: Ecto

for being too scummy to be scum.

And now Surye has reasonlessly 'warning' voted Adel, and then pushed attention on BOTH of hte players that Adel claimed to be in a group with. Why? Because if Adel gets lynched (Or NK'd as turns to be the case), Surye has a breadcrumb trail to pick back up to push against Ecto and to a later degree PEG.

Ecto then gets belligerent and Surye pushes suspicion onto him, calling him OMGUSSing him in return. This is interesting because Adel chimes in again:

I call him out, and he responds by just saying he'll vote for me, I thought that was OMGUS. Perhaps I misunderstand, but I'm not sure why else he would say he'd vote me without saying anything else as to why.

actual sequence of events:
1. you voted for me
2. i voted for you
3. ecto voted for you
...
you call OMGUS on Ecto.

does not compute,
advise quicklynch of Surye under LAL

Surye's response:

(repeated quote)

FoS: Ecto

for being too scummy to be scum.

I find it really convenient you left this out of your sequence, since that immediately preceded his call to vote me.

And to justify what I was saying, he's "playing" at having control of this game, that we'll lynch who he wants us to. I found this really suspicious as it allows him to say things with the fall-back of joking.

Deflects attention away from himself onto Ecto (without accusing Adel), while still having hsi vote on Adel. Adel and Surye banter, And adel pulls off hte gibberish mask to point out Surye's flaw:

you didn't call OMGUS on me.

he voted you

BEFORE

you placed a FOS on him.

I normally harass a player I am unfamiliar with in the beginning of a game to get a read, and the read I'm getting off of you is scummy as hell. I expect you see you lynched within a few pages.

Surye's Response:

he voted you

BEFORE

you placed a FOS on him.

Hmm, so you're right, I forgot the vote order since up till now it was mostly non-sense voting, and when he said his vote was on me, for some reason I was thinking he was

threatening

a vote on me.

I don't see how it's scummy as hell though. If his first vote was from the random voting stage, and after I FoS him, he solidifies it into a real vote, I still stand by my OMGUS. If it's not, then that means he actually meant something by his first vote on my, and that sets you and Ecto as having an agenda.

Either way, Ecto is implicated, so I think I'm on the right track, and the way you are responding makes me really suspicious of you.

Again, pushing attention away from himself onto Ectomancer, and even though he is voting Adel and is saying that Adel is acting scummy, he implicates Adel only through the lynching of Ectomancer; basically trying to set up a situation where Ecto will be lynched, come up town, and therefore alleviate Surye's need to be suspicious of Adel.

I already defended this, I missed the order of some events, and had a poor understanding of OMGUS. See my comments at the time for my same reasoning.

now

that

is OMGUS.

I do have an agenda: lynching you today. You are my target, and as many of the other players in this game know, I usually get my way on day 1. Any last words?

AT this point, Adel is doing damage control by distancing as much as he can from Surye; Surye is failing to launch, voting without actually being suspicious, claiming suspicion but not pushing a case, etc. Adel is trying to make it less likely that if *either* of them die, the other will look better.

Rosso voices his complaint, tries to change the subject (Why? BEcause two of his partners were voting each other)

(Incidentally shaft.ed, you sided with Adel against Surye)

I agree with Adel. I also found Surye to be trying to hard to look proactive before this broke.

unvote vote: Surye

Would any of the other eleven people signed up for this game like to post?

Yes, I try to provoke discussion, I don't see what's wrong with that. It worked as usual, and as usual, it attracted a lot of attention to me, but if you read what I am saying, you'd see Ecto and Adel are
acting very odd.

And @Adel, how is you defending ecto's OMGUS (you've cleared it up, that's what it was) not suspicious?

Surye defends himself to shaft.ed (he doesn't bother with Adel since he's scum with them)

Or scum saw a floundering townie, and knew it would be easy to mislynch? It's really too bad I can't actually analyze PEG in these situations, how well he ensured such a debate would be one-sided.

Later:

Well damn, I hope I'm not lynched for ignorance of their play style, I've just been trying to get the conversation away from game histories and on some scumhunting.

As someone else pointed out, Surye was at L-5. So why the defensiveness and furlornness? Did he think Adel was telling him to bend over and take getting lynched (Adel's posts seem to hint as much)? Did he feel abandoned by his partners (Rosso was not defending either side, again) and was melancholy? No scum wants to be bussed by their own partners day one. When asked why he was being fatalistic:

Because Adel seemed serious about it, and everyone who has posted seems to agree. But looking at it again, that's not that many,

I guess I started feeling a snowball growing behind me for no reason.

Guess I'm getting ahead of myself. But if this is just their play style, then I am not sure what I have for this game yet.

A snowball being started for no reason? That's... that's something that

SCUM

does?! So why wouldn't Surye go after Adel?? The answer may surprise you!! (or it won't)

Adel calls it out for Surye: "*yawn* typical paranoid scum "

Even after seeing no reason behind the wagon on him AND at Adel's goading, Surye focusses on Ectomancer, but otherwise hides with his 'defeated' tail between his legs.

MM pipes in:

I do not like Surye's progression of actions either, he's by far the scummiest player in the game now.

Unvote, Vote: Surye

He puts Surye at -1.

ON TO PAGE SIX!

Unvote, vote Machiavellian-Mafia

putting players at -1 with no warning or explanation ? You sir, need to be lynched.

since when are you against quicklynches?

fos: ABR

Surye's most likely scumbuddy!

Adel hoping to capitalize on the Surye wagon by tying her to townies.
Sury econtinues with "Woe, why am at -1? Was I really that bad? Le sigh."

I didn't even vote anyone once the game got more serious.

How is that even close to anti-town?

Unvote, Vote:Adel

There, we're out of the random voting stage.

trying to revise history

Heh, You think the game was getting serious there?

Ahh! So Surye's vote on Adel wasn't 'serious' at all... it really was just a random vote. So the ignoring of Adel through the next two pages or so in favor of Ecto, who Adel claimed to be in a hgroup with (Jokingly but still a trail) makes more sense.

Now who's using a false dichotomy? Either a vote is random, or it's serious? Nay sir. You even said your self it was a warning vote for a scummy move, which is distinctly different from finding scum, and voting them with the intent to drive a lynch. When the game is not completely formed and serious, the former works well.

Even though Adel is being the most obnoviously obvious about trying to get Surye lynched, Surye continues to play nice to Adel, offering no counter inquisition, even recanting the previous distancing that he had done earlier in the game as "Just playing". (post 134)

After ABR (RBer) starts defending Surye (ABR says he is sure Surye is town, but he has no way in game to know this), he even says that if Adel thinks he is scum, to vote him instead.

His reasons were meta. I think that has been most of what you've held up until this post, no? And since this post is all you have to offer, I'm not sure which is worse.

Adel does so. After Ecto changes focus to MM, Adel agrees as well. Surye, similarly, unvotes Surye and votes Coolbot. He ignores MM, who almost got him lynched. Why? Surye wasn't worried about being quicklynched, as Rosso had already expressed disinterest in going after Surye OR Adel. He acknowledges that MM was scummy, but goes after Coolbot for trying ot get him to claim. Adel immediately moves back to Surye. (PErhaps thinking MM would be more valuable to the team)

Page 7:
Surye again defers to Adel, asking what was wrong. Adel says that Surye is scum, and Surye retorts that Adel didn't answer his question. (WHERE IS THE SUSPICION?! WHERE ARE THE VOTES?!)

Oh, so first you say I'm a hard busser, then I am afraid to vote or suspect a scum buddy?

Coolbot has begun to earnestly gain votes at this point for trying to get Adel to post. Surye says that sinec two people have unvoted, there's no reason to claim.

FOS: COOL

not feeling a surye lynch.


that is all. Be back in like 48 pages.

Note that even though Cool's pushing for him to claim is potentially threatening PEG's livelihood by outing him as a mason, he is not voting COol. Instead he calmly weighs in. (And as you can see, PEG lurks).

Calmly weighs in. Huh, interesting wording. As I see it, it was passive non-playing. And adding weight to a wagon to lynch a townie without being on the vote count. FYI, weighing in usually has WEIGHT. Not something so non-content as just an FOS. Nice try.

MM weighs in: He was only putting Surye at L-2, not L-1 (which Adel had pointed out earlier.) Pushes attention on the townie defending his scum partner as well as the townie trying to get his scumpartner to claim.

Ecto and ADel both jump on Coolbot.

Ecto tries to convince Rosso to put Coolbot at L-2, and PEG (Me) jumps in to correct him: He actually put hima t L-1 (Not productive for scum to say)

Interesting, while I am appreciative of ABR having my back, I find it interesting that you completely ignored him in your analysis, when he's the one that actively derailed the bandwagon, and began pointing out CoolBot's behavior.

Wow! And yet Surye has been doing this all game, to someone who was *ACTUALLY* attacking *HIM*.

More of this loving Adel stuff? Meh, I thought she was honestly scum hunting, and I did pose questions to her, as you stated, and insisted she answer them, just as you stated.

Rosso calls Adel scum, Adel responds with:

people in glass houses, something something, shouldn't throw axes at people stirring the pot, or else a kettle will call you back.

Important to note:

Rosso Carne disliked it when Adel and Surye were fighting, but when Coolbot had a wagon, he perked up and wanted to be interested in it, but needed someone else to give him a reason for it.

Congratulations, you just proved Rosso was scum. A few pages late I'm afraid.

I have lost my steam since page 13, and was hoping to finish at least day one.

I really think that you, SHaft.ed, should read pages 3-10, at least ,to see how hte players interacted with each other.

Vote: Surye

as shaft.ed has not hammered me. IE if he's s cum, he can win at any point he wants. But Surye and Adel's interactions day one, and rosso and MM's reactions to that vs coolbot and aBR, indicate that Surye is scum. (Unless you think the entire mafia team deliberately picked one player to quasi bus/defend/distance/et), which rosso is not interested in games enough to do.

I hope shaft.ed can see through this nonsense. I'll be gone till late tonight, I will probably end up partying down town tonight after the con, and so will not be around till late tomorrow or Monday. Too bad I couldn't do an analysis of PEG. That would have been nice. If only he posted.

[Surye]

Doh, forgot to preview, sorry, I messed up the end quote after "Or scum saw a floundering townie, and knew it would be easy to mislynch? It's really too bad I can't actually analyze PEG in these situations, how well he ensured such a debate would be one-sided." If a mod wants to fix it, cool, if not, I think you can figure it out, it's just one block of quotes, it seems to fix itself.

[Surye]

Skruffs, thanks for making my win feel worthy, I thought you had me. But since the Rosso distancing, I had been working on getting shaft.ed on my side with things. The Kison night kill was unfortunate, I was waiting for MM, forgot about the deadline, and the doc survived another night.

I don't think I can ever bus as hard as I did in this game, but it was fun to do ;P

As for the format, the town was so resistive to setup speculation, it was hard to talk about what was meta breaking, every time I tried to use meta breaking to my advantage, town would go back to bastard mod-ery.

I'm still pretty new to this game, but I learned a lot playing this game, thanks to everyone for participating.

[Surye]

Nice game Surye, that was a very nice bus.

Very sorry Skruffs, you put in a lot of effort for replacing so late. PEG left you in a bad spot.

Did I mention I'm not a fan of deciding the end game?

I've been a decider in endgame twice, and botched it both times, I feel your pain.

[Surye]

Congratulations, Surye. Turns out that you do play scum like I do.

And I can't ever do it again

[Surye]

And yea, I wouldn't say I bussed MM, there was NO other action I could take. Tar was going to die that night, or he would investigate me, and if he died as was shown as sane, I would be doomed if I didn't vote MM/stark.

Personally, I wish there were a couple more odd combos, does a town RB stop NKs? Cause then the lack of mafia power roles seems inconsequential for the meta-breaking aspect.

[Surye]

And yea, I wouldn't say I bussed MM, there was NO other action I could take. Tar was going to die that night, or he would investigate me, and if he died as was shown as sane, I would be doomed if I didn't vote MM/stark.

Personally, I wish there were a couple more odd combos, does a town RB stop NKs? Cause then the lack of mafia power roles seems inconsequential for the meta-breaking aspect.

Surye, you didn't wn because of the MM bus, IMO. You won because you bussed the hell out of Rosso at the end of D2. That's what convinced me you were town in the end (my last night choice was pickem/skruffs in the expectation he would come up scum if I somehow lived).

I know, that's what I'm saying. MM's lynch wasn't anything, just necissary at that point in the game.

[Surye]

I like how I had Surye pegged and no one would listen to me.