The MafiaScum Minecraft Thread - AllTheMods 9!!! - NEW Vanilla?

[Maruchan]

It has always been 40% - it's meant to be that way. It's absolutely possible to make a realistic "pirate" ship with these ratios. This isn't really a config that I've ever considered changing because it works and is balanced in my opinion. Making certain things "easier for aesthetics" is something to consider more for SSP, and not really for a mod like this on a multiplayer server.

And really, to gain flight IRL you would be talking about at least a 60% ratio depending on what you're hauling. I think the 40% is generous and fair in this regard, especially when you're talking about moving all your containers full of everything you own in one trip, instead of ??? however many it would take on foot or even by teleportation.

[Maestro]

Why should I make an aesthetic build with no useable space when I can make an ugly build with a bunch of space?

I'm just gonna respond to this, because the rest is basically haranguing about adding difficulty where you don't think there should be any, and that's just a difference of opinion. But this part? This is kindof a bad faith mindset to have this discussion in. If your decision-making when building is always stuck between [ useful/useless, ugly/pretty, easy to build/hard to build ] then your approach to the game may need examining.

I prefer something closer to "mostly useful, nice-looking (but a little difficult to get right)" - a happy medium in difficulty gives the game actual challenge, an actual opportunity to play. I've always wondered why (in the past) Modded MS MC has veered towards making shit easier, when the whole point of the mods is to expand on building and crafting, not trivialize it. Thermal Foundation gives us Energized Glowstone, a really cool (potentially) decorative fluid that flows up. That doesn't mean it needs to be easy to get in large quantities; you have to work for it. Same RE: Da Vinci's Vessels. If you can get everything easily, the game is over. Why do that to yourself? Give yourself goals, things to actually

do

with those cool tech systems you seem to like.

But we've played together, so I know you have fun, but I also know you get caught up on things. The fact remains that wherever ETL wants to add difficulty, she can. It's her server. This is the same reason Klaz and I had our own server, and probably will again at some point. Everybody likes to play their way, and if your way is "I want it to be easy and pretty and do what I want it to do" then what I'd have to say to you is that you gotta give up something. If you choose to give up "pretty" that's your call, but don't blame anybody else for it.

[Maruchan]

If flying within two days of server start with da vinci regardless of this percentage. The question is do I kill 50 sheep and make. Pretty flying fortress or kill 5 sheep and be basic as fuck and fly a flat balloon floor with a bed and a chest?

That's entirely up to you. Build up your resources a bit more and then you can make a bad ass pirate ship with a giant balloon holding it up.

We can help

I wouldn't. That doesn't fit the aesthetic of a pirate ship. That is then a pirate blimp. There are plenty of great design ideas for blimp esque designs that I would be happy to build, but none of them will be remotely ship like. A ship should have a sail or sails. Not a balloon. I'll make hot air baloons or blimps if I decide I want aesthetics, but I likely wont ever prioritize aesthetics enough at that point. Function trumps it in my book and a 15 long by 15 high by 4 deep solid block of baloons with my base on the flat top surface is more functionally useful than a a ship made of solid baloons to look ship-like. I'll stick with that. Flight with da vinci is godly easy like M said. And we sent discussing changing that. If you'd like to discuss editing that recipe I'm all for it, I'd be sad but it would make technological sense to do so. Da vinci is OP as fuck. But add an ender pearl and a diamond to every baloon recipe and I'd still advocate 20 over 40. Once I have the industry in place to acquire 200 ender eyes and diamonds, 400 isnt much harder. So 40 percent is still a stupid number.

[Maruchan]

I think this's a question of enjoyment vs realism

If it's really an issue, I'd consider dropping it to 30% but no lower really.

If you're willing to drop it to thirty I do t see why thirty is your low limit? 20 percent allows realistic, aesthetically, builds that are functionally useful and key a solid mass of baloons hidden by a pretty facade while still being a large number. The pirate ship takes 3 stacks of baloons to hit 20 percent. It's also still useful by having a 2-high interior space useful for a base. Start goin higher than 20 and you sacrifice function for numbers of baloons pointlessly

[Maruchan]

because the rest is basically haranguing about adding difficulty where you don't think there should be any, and that's just a difference of opinion.

Not true. I'm for added difficulty. Let's discuss editing the recipe for flight from 1wool+1string. That's stupid easy. Can we make it so it has to be crafted in some liner 4 or 5 tech mod crafter vice a crafting table? A crafting device that takes power?

That makes more logical sense. To make A FLYING MACHINE a civilization should have a decent power grid and simple machines in place first, not cavemen.

Now that we've upped the tech level on baloons from caveman to tech age, can we set it to 20 percent so I can build useful AND pretty things? Pretty shouldn't be at the expense of useful and vice versa

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Maru - I don't want to drop it at all. But you're making such a huge deal out of this, I'd be willing to drop it just to make this conversation end.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Oh look a flying pirate ship

[Maestro]

If youre so concerned with ease of obtaining flight, drop it to 5% and make the balloon blocks expensive. call them antigravity generators or whatever.

Wen we ran high seas, M, we dropped airship blocks to like 15% or something, and did that negatively impact our enjoyment? no, we had fun with our flying ships.

I think this's a question of enjoyment vs realism

First of all, I don't think the first suggestion helps matters. The vast majority of mods function out-of-the-box, especially something as elegant and simple as Da Vinci's. We don't need to add CraftTweaker and fuck with one of the 2 blocks added by this mod just to try to solve this problem - it's balanced as-is in the mod.

When we ran High Seas, that was a specialized modpack built for exploration and with very few travel options (no teleportation, for example, if memory serves). It was the

ONLY

thing in that pack that could do something like that, and we built the pack to be really fun, with very little in terms of balancing, if memory serves. Don't even try to equate that to a giant kitchen sink pack like this - that comment is not relevant.

Enjoyment vs. balance is the real question; realism was a side point in support of balance because of how multiple mods are balanced in relation to each other and to how something similar would function IRL (the easiest point here is that all teleporters use some kind of power or teleport-related fuel, like Ender Pearls).

PEDIT: If you're going to start to argue against the idea of "economy of scale", you have all of Modded Minecraft against you...

PEDIT2: Why should they change the recipe? The idea is that it is balanced based off of the percentage itself. Sorry that you're taking the wrong approach to the argument...? Are we all talking about strictly adding difficulty here? No, we're talking about this facet of the balance that you don't like. Why not change every gated thing we don't like in every mod we feel could use a tweak, like you've described? Because we don't need to. It's a lot of work for ETL and Arch who're already doing a lot by combing configs - hell, that's easily my least favorite part of making any modpack, still, and I must've done it a dozen times.

PEDIT3: Maru, in general, if you

DECIDE

to sacrifice aesthetics because you think something is too hard (like designing a craft that looks nice AND has 40% balloons/sails/whatever-you-want-to-call-them), I'm so sorry to tell you this, but that's your

DECISION

. Not anybody else's. ETL/Arch make a decision about balance that affects the game? Cool. What you do as a result of that? Not their fault, and not their problem. They're not forcing you to do anything.

[Maruchan]

Have you seen a video of that actually flying in mc with da vinci and 40 percent baloons? There is no way that is 40 percent. Give me creative on test server and I will experiment to prove. Beautiful stationary flying ship concept though!

[Maestro]

It certainly has more sails than yours did...? I think that's the place to start

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I'm not going to go changing recipes. The mod is balanced already in my opinion. You can find a way to work with it the way it was intended or do something else. There are a lot of options in this pack for you to play with and discover.

Please no more on this subject. It's not changing.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I'll be in IRC if you want to talk

[Maruchan]

M you're side stepping ever time I mention I disagree that it is balanced. If I have the tech and industry and assembly line in place to build 200 baloons, how many tiers of difficulty is it for me to double my baloons to 400? Tell me that the difference in difficulty added from 200 to 400 after building th tech for 200 I significantly similar to making the initial 200 harder.

Once you mass produce an item past a certain point it only gets easier. It doesn't add difficulty to mass produce nore.

What it does do is take away function. I can we all hop in SSP creative and design aesthetically pleasing FUNCTIONAL flying ships (not blimps or baloons) and compare our designs? If we can and you prove my point is invalid and it is possible to do so, I will gladly stand down and be corrected.

Because I dont think it's possible to have function, and aesthetics, and keep it over 40 percent, without just saying "add a 1000 block baloon above it and suspend the structure beneath like a blimp"

[Maruchan]

I'm not going to go changing recipes. The mod is balanced already in my opinion. You can find a way to work with it the way it was intended or do something else. There are a lot of options in this pack for you to play with and discover.

Please no more on this subject. It's not changing.

I'm fine with ending the subject because as M said this is your server so you are the king. I know I did the same in my day.

But to be clear we are ending subject at "it's not changing because I said so and I'm boss" and not "you dont have a valid point". Correct?

If that's the case I'll quit talking no problem and continue playing game and havin fun. I'm just not conceding that both sides here are understanding the point or attempting to argue it validity

[EspeciallyTheLies]

What it does do is take away function. I can we all hop in SSP creative and design aesthetically pleasing FUNCTIONAL flying ships (not blimps or baloons) and compare our designs?

Here you go.

Now stop.

[Maruchan]

What it does do is take away function. I can we all hop in SSP creative and design aesthetically pleasing FUNCTIONAL flying ships (not blimps or baloons) and compare our designs?

Here you go.

Now stop.

Here I go what? That is not a response to the quote you quoted? The only flying device in this video is. Baloon with basket style hot air baloon style ship with 50-60 solid blocks and 85 baloons. The giant ships with 20 sails are cotton sails and dont move a single time in the video. They are also nowhere near 40% sail density.

This is an attempt to show I am wrong not a "no because I said so" so you still haven't validated my point. Are we at "no because I said so" or are we at "Mary you're wrong and this is why?"

[Maestro]

PEDIT: Maru. I don't need to compare building skills with you; I've done it before at the intended 40%. It's possible. If you want me to get on server and build something pretty w/ 40% balloons to

rub your face in it

, fine, but I don't really want to have to. You should take my word on this, I say again: the choice between aesthetics and function only exists in your mind. You're creating it because you refuse to do X amount of work more than you want to do (where X = the amount of work it takes to think up a design that is better organized/whatever it takes to get to 40%).

I'm not side-stepping anything. That's what I meant when I mentioned that the fact that you think it's unbalanced? That is a discussion about economies of scale. I am well aware that it is much easier to make 200 more balloons after you've gotten an initial 200, but my opinion on this issue is the opposite of my opinion on solars (a similar issue) because, to expand on this example, solars are a means to an end. They create power, and power shouldn't be scalable as easily as solars make it out to be; a trickle turns into a torrent with any kind of automatic mining setup, or a UUM rig (if you're going IC2/TR). Balloons aren't a means to an end - they

ARE

the end. IMO, it should take work to get to that end, and there should be reason to go the extra mile for that end. The work required can get easier as you scale up (and it should!), but the reason to scale up in the first place? Because your designs need to have 40% balloons! There it is! That's why it's balanced.

And if you disagree with that, I've already said that a disagreement on the question of "is this balanced?" isn't going to go anywhere. ETL and I think it's balanced and you don't, and you haven't come up with any convincing reasons why, other than "aesthetics are sacrificed" but that's 100% not true. It's just not. So come up with another argument to discuss over IRC, or leave this alone.

PEDIT2: I think it's disrespectful to say ETL's just shutting it down because she's boss. She's listened, you haven't made good points (and seem to think we haven't either), so at an inpasse, what else are people supposed to do but say "let's stop talking about this"? Take any response to this to PM or IRC (I'm getting on now).

PEDIT3: I've responded, but don't harass ETL over this any more.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Maru it is 100% possible to make a pirate ship with sails instead of a giant balloon on top and make it flyable. You need to include more sails and add balloons to the sides. I understand what you're saying, and I'm saying I disagree.

This is not a case of "No because I say so". This is a very simple decision that you are turning into a larger issue when it doesn't need to be.

[Klazam]

Maru, im thinking you could just scale the size of your build way the fuck up.

have the hull be wooden, but make it two thick, with the second layer being balloon blocks, then have a lot of balloon blocks inside of the belly of the ship, say 4 or 5 layers thick, coat that with your hull block, that should be enough to get usable space. then add large sails to the masts. built large enough, it'll easily get around the 40% limitation.

[Maruchan]

I would appreciate m building example "to rub my face in it" because after playing with it last night I honestly donk think it can be done well. It seems that is where our disagreement is stemming. We fundamentally disagree on if it is possible at the moment. My experience last night telling me it isnt and your guys' experience telling you it is.

Can't do IRC I'm mobile and the rate of discussion in a real time medium would be way more than I could realistically handle or respond to while mobile.

[Maruchan]

Maru, im thinking you could just scale the size of your build way the fuck up.

have the hull be wooden, but make it two thick, with the second layer being balloon blocks, then have a lot of balloon blocks inside of the belly of the ship, say 4 or 5 layers thick, coat that with your hull block, that should be enough to get usable space. then add large sails to the masts. built large enough, it'll easily get around the 40% limitation.

Yes that is exactly what I said is necessary. That's what I did with the pirate ship picture I linked to hit 40 percent I would have to leave a 1thick exterior aesthetic hull and a solid interior if baloons. It was 4 layers thick baloon and the entire interior space of said build is 4 blocks high. Which left me no interior space that was usable. And if you keep the masts (is better for aesthetics) it makes at least 70 percent of the exposed deck unusable to functionality as well

I didn't try with a larger variant but I'll hop on creative when I get home on SSP and try to scale that same ship design up by. Bit and see how well it scales with da vinci

[Maruchan]

Quick question, is anyone besides me planning ay any point to make an entirely self sufficient floating base ship vice just a small transportation gimmicky ship for fun because the mod I'd stupid easy and amusing as fuck?

Because I believe the answer to this is no......

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Absolutely.

Also don't you remember Ouroboros base that Klaz made?

[Maruchan]

Nope I dont think I was here for that.

[Maestro]

Oh god, let's not base ANYTHING in this discussion off of that thing...

@Maru: I wasn't trying to be rude, but this is a game where you can build literally anything. Of course I can make it work. The sails will most likely be much larger than you had originally envisioned, or I'll do something similar to what Klaz suggests, but all these things make this usable and aesthetically pleasing (to me), not to mention possible. Do you disagree that those measures (larger sails, internal balloons) can still be usable/aesthetically-pleasing just on principle? Then we need to stop talking, because we just won't agree on this.