Guns & Roses III [Game over]

[DogWatch]

Hiiiiii all, first game in two years. I forgot almost everything.

But I remember this guy.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[DogWatch]

VOTE: AaronFrost

Creature, what was this? Did you have a legit scumread on AF (which I don't see how) or were you just trying to get a wagon going?

[DogWatch]

Posting stuff like 'waiting for smt to happen' while having a scumread that ur not pushing or engaging with is mehhhh

If you think menal townslipped and considering that he did pretty much the same thing in post 86 that you're voting sal for, couldnt sal just as easily be town?

[DogWatch]

wait what did I miss? why is alimdia scum?

[DogWatch]

Sorry, I was meaning to direct that to creature but forgot the quote.

@Creature, you've got Sal, alim, and AF as your scumreads but from what I can tell, no explanations whatsoever. The only interaction from alim was a vote and then you started scumreading him. Just trying to understand where your head is at because I think you're usually one of the easier reads.

[DogWatch]

maybe i'm not seeing it from the perspective of someone who thinks he's being buddied, but GL's iso looks sound to me

unvoting my rvs

UNVOTE: GL

[DogWatch]

the case is he's making scummy posts, especially with how he reacted to and exaggerated Creature's posts around him and the way he's shading Ico for townreading Menalque

Personally his reaction to Creature (post 230) I kinda agreed with, but I think him moving to Ico right after was weird.

[DogWatch]

Maybe not 'gross' but 176 pinged me somewhat. I couldn't follow the progression from scumreading AF, then scumreading sal and alim while stating he needs a third. Well, wouldn't AF be the third? And I don't think any of those reads were explained. So, I'd love to see Creature's response.

[DogWatch]

btw GL, to answer you from the start of the game... we played some Oddrole games together I was ginghamdog.

[DogWatch]

I'm always slow to vote beyond rvs, just a really slow starter in general

Tbh I don't have any major scumleans at the moment, creature is the only one whose really pinged me at all but not enough to vote yet

[DogWatch]

at the very least I want to hear his reasoning for his 3 scum leanings, like i said earlier I just couldnt see the progression.

[DogWatch]

VOTE: AaronFrost

His posts read very forced. His progression on creature also sucks.

Can you elaborate?

[DogWatch]

Is non transparent reads scummy?

not necessarily but post 176 seems inconsistent with his scumreading of AF earlier. Maybe it's nothing, but I want to hear from him.

[DogWatch]

He calls out creature for something and then commits the exact same offense very quickly by voting Iconeum, who is, IMO, lower hanging fruit than Creature.

Do you agree that AF had any sort of point against Creature though? Since you word it as an offense? I do see what you're saying about AF tbf

[DogWatch]

In other words, I can very easily see AF’s posting as scum motivated; attempt to capitalize on obvious town mistakes, but place vote on most likely mislynch. Obviously that’s untrue if Ico ends up flipping scum. I’m null on him currently.

Also as I look at this it actually seems kind of perspective slippy? Like calling AFF out for capitalising on “obvious town mistakes” sounds a little too much like she knows they’re town, esp considering her null read on icon? Plus calling icon the most likely mislynch

This is exactly what I couldn't put my finger on when Amrun answered my questions last night. I think if you're going to label what Creature did as the "exact same offense" then you'd be scumreading him too regardless of who AF voted for. The more I think about it, AF seems more and more town and Amrun/Creature are looking more sus. There's been two instances of Amrun turning suspicion away from Creature, once when she voted almidia for his vote on Creature and then again in post 284. Like I'm having a hard time articulating it exactly but it seems to come from the perspective of someone who knows Creature's posts were kinda scummy, acknowledges it because she has to, but doesn't want to follow up on it.

VOTE: Amrun

[DogWatch]

Prodge! Sorry for being MIA but real life has been kicking my ass. I will try my best to reply later tonight!

[DogWatch]

Ok, don’t have much time and posting on phone so forgive the lack of quotes. Also I haven’t read every single post yet.

Ever since GL and Creature jumped on fairly abruptly I’m a lot less sure about the wagon. Menalque continues to defend it even though it’s looking shakier by the moment.

Which brings me to this: why is menalque so widely town-read right now?

If it’s because of his “townslip” during RVS, that’s literally nothing. I’ve done something similar as scum and I’ve done it as town too with full intent both times. So I read nothing into that, purely NAI for me. I did not understand why that “slip” dominated the early discussion.

@menalque, what was your initial progression on amrun and why are still so adamant about it?

I don’t know who I’m scum reading right now. I thought amrun’s response to my vote was level headed and made sense. I don’t think my vote was particularly well reasoned. At the very least I don’t like her at L-1 right now.

UNVOTE: amrun

Leaning slightly scum on GL now, but I only skimmed his posts today so I need to go back through him. Creature I’m still leaning scum on slightly.

@amrun, you said earlier this looked like town!creature based on experience. Where are you now with him? I used to think he was easy to sort but I haven’t been here in years.

[DogWatch]

Im uneasy about meanlque.

But Creature is looking worse to me. I’ve always known Creature to be highly game-solvey as town and lacking in motivation as scum (again, it’s been years but that’s what I remember) and I don’t understand how his posts in this game come from town motivation.

@amrun, why do you think a player who sloppily put you at L-1 with no explanation is a lower priority? Genuine question, not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing.

Id vote creature but don’t think we’re getting a creature lynch today. Not opposed to GL though. I know he’s a good player and his vote looks uncharacteristic.

[DogWatch]

I'm updating my townreads to include AF and Datisi.

Amrun is a spicy wagon that I think has p good odds of scum and I'm gonna join it, but right now I feel I got a stronger read on alimdia

. I think the S_S tunnel is a distraction and disingenuous, and has given alimdia cover not to comment on anything else actually relevant going on.

VOTE: Amrun

Why exactly did he join the wagon anyways? He makes it clear that his read on alimdia is much stronger but then joins the wagon after saying scum is on it because... why? How is he reading Amrun? He never says.

Earlier he also stated he townreads Icon, Mena, Dogwatch and Creature. Then before he hops on he includes me and Datisi in his townreads. That's literally the entire wagon right there.

I took it to mean that he thinks the wagon has good odds of flipping scum (amrun), not necessarily that scum is on the wagon itself. So I’m not sure he’s really being contradictory here.

[DogWatch]

@alimdia, I missed it but I also don’t think it was ever relevant. You accused SS of posting neutral fluff but I don’t think my posts compare. Low output yes but I haven’t been neutral. I don’t scumread SS at all fwiw.

My unease about menal isn’t strong but it’s there, like I’m a little skittish about how widely townread he is over something that I found NAI and I think it’s been easy for him to coast on it. I joined his wagon but I don’t like it in retrospect. It does feel like a scum-driven wagon unlike the GL wagon.

I’m much happier here. VOTE: GL

I’m also remaining pretty adamant that this is Creature’s scum game, maybe I’m using old meta but I just disagree with amrun and texcat on him looking town.

[DogWatch]

Tbh I haven’t explored the alim/SS stuff as closely as I should have so I’m going to be ISOing you both today.

No idea what to think of Sal or Datisi at this point. I’m having a rough time finding my footing with some of the players here. I forgot DDL was even in the game.

[DogWatch]

How is Aaron scummier now? What?

[DogWatch]

I don't rly think anyone is town reading me for my "not a townslip" vs the fact that I'm actually solving and sorting people, how caught up are you at this point?

Would it count if I'm townreading you for your insistence that the supposed townslip wasn't towny?

Purely hypothetical question, of course.

Also hypothetical but wouldn’t that be a really easy way for scum to get town points?

[DogWatch]

Which is again why that whole thing is NAI.

[DogWatch]

there’s nothing wrong with my vote. GL is in my top two scum reads and I explained why I’m not voting creature yet.

Blows my mind that you’d call me opportunistic over GL, who has the most opportunistic vote in the game. Your reasoning is awful.

[DogWatch]

You do realize that opinions change as information gathers, right?

[DogWatch]

There’s nothing odd about it. I didn’t love my amrun vote (as I vocalized) and left that wagon. AFTER that, GL became one of my better scum reads and I felt much better about that vote. I don’t see why this concerns you.

[DogWatch]

VOTE: gl because everyone else is too

Actually I take it back. THIS is the most opportunistic vote in the game.

[DogWatch]

I mentioned it before but I don’t see us getting anywhere with that today. Amrun made a good case for letting him sort himself out, and I agree with it. You don’t always vote your biggest scum read, sometimes you vote the scum read that has the best chance of flipping.

[DogWatch]

@menal, I intend to but I need to ISO you again because I think I overlooked some of your hundreds of posts lol

[DogWatch]

VOTE: gl because everyone else is too

Actually I take it back. THIS is the most opportunistic vote in the game.

Okay so how about voting ddl with me then

Is this where your scumread on DDL came from?

[DogWatch]

I wasn’t referring to voting, I was referring to answering your long post

[DogWatch]

Mostly but I feel like certain players I’ve barely paid attention to.

[DogWatch]

I don’t know how to word this exactly, but DDL’s vote on GL is so obviously sheepy (and admittedly so) that I feel like scum wouldn’t be so stupid as to throw it out there like that. GL felt more gross to me.

[DogWatch]

I guess I see DDL as less opportunistic and more just bored town? I dunno

[DogWatch]

Such as who?

Also u should reread my ISO because I’m p clearly one of them, as I already said why ddl is scum before you talked about his opportunistic vote

Datisi and alim mostly.

I’m looking back on your ddl stuff now.

[DogWatch]

I meant alex not alim sorry

DDL’s jump from GL to texcat looked even more like bored town to me. like it’s bad but it just doesn’t appear to come from a scum perspective imo

[DogWatch]

I meant alex not alim sorry

DDL’s jump from GL to texcat looked even more like bored town to me. like it’s bad but it just doesn’t appear to come from a scum perspective imo

And by Alex I mean Aaron, jesus christ I need sleep

[DogWatch]

There’s nothing odd about it. I didn’t love my amrun vote (as I vocalized) and left that wagon. AFTER that, GL became one of my better scum reads and I felt much better about that vote. I don’t see why this concerns you.

Who were you scumreading at the time then? If you didn't like the Amrun wagon then there's no reason to hop onto it and you could've attempted to lead us elsewhere if that's how you really felt. It feels like you took the safer option here.

You’re misunderstanding. I DID scumread amrun at the time. I’m saying I don’t love that vote in retrospect.

[DogWatch]

My problem right now is that my two top scum reads don't make much sense together. GL and Creature BOTH being scum seems really unlikely considering how fast they jumped the amrun wagon one after the other, and I know they're both better players than to do something that sloppy and obvious if the efforts were scum-coordinated.

[DogWatch]

amrun [4] - Datisi, Iconeum, GuiltyLion, Creature

I'm pretty sure this is all town and still a good wagon btw

Being honest I haven't really looked at Creature much since I got some slight town vibes from his early game but it's true he's dropped off a lot since then. I think he's less towny than Doolittle and Menalque I'm willing to hear your case there but I feel you're off on that one.

@GL, what exactly was your progression here from town!creature to scum!creature considering that creature hasn't posted in between these two posts? You say he dropped off, but he literally never said anything after you townread him.

[DogWatch]

Tell me this: for anything creature has done that’s scummy, has ddl not done the same thing but worse?

Being generally absent is (or at least used to be) a scumtell for Creature in a way that it's not for most people.

Yep, this is the old meta I was referring to a while back.

[DogWatch]

Damn I forgot that Dogwatch comment about Creature meta earlier in the game, good recall. That does make her hesitance to vote him look a lot worse

My hesitancy to vote him centers partly on questioning whether or not that meta is old/outdated, as I alluded to at some point earlier, and partly due to lack of reactions from him to anything that’s recently happened. You even said yourself that his inactivity is difficult to evaluate so I’m not following why you’d expect me to switch votes when there’s so much ambiguity at play anyway.

[DogWatch]

I mean I don't particularly think he is either but I think he's the best out of the current wagon options.

Talk to me about this please.

[DogWatch]

My hesitancy to vote him centers partly on questioning whether or not that meta is old/outdated, as I alluded to at some point earlier, and partly due to lack of reactions from him to anything that’s recently happened. You even said yourself that his inactivity is difficult to evaluate so I’m not following why you’d expect me to switch votes when there’s so much ambiguity at play anyway.

I'm not understanding how you can say you think this is his scum meta, yet be less certain about voting him than voting me. You really think I'm still more likely to be scum than Creature based off that one Amrun vote despite all the rest of the effort/engagement I've put in since?

Like if I had just not posted at all and similarly had a "lack of reactions to anything", would that make me

less

suspicious in your mind?

I literally just told you why; I was torn on this being outdated meta or not. I haven't played on this site in two years.
Otherwise I think you make a fair point and I've been close-minded about your alignment really.

[DogWatch]

I dislike menal's ddl push fwiw

[DogWatch]

Almida whats it going to take to get you on creature?

if creature is on L1, and deadline is <12 hours away.

Creature is v similar to textcat, DDR and DW. Idk how he got pushed over them.

Do you townread creature or is it more “I dont vote lurkers”

I'm actually happy to push lurkers out because if they're scum free win, if they're town then I don't want them in lylo too.
But this game has a couple of vigs at least to take the lurkers out.

GL just seems more dodgy, with my recent posts explaining why.

Would you say activity is scummier than no activity?

[DogWatch]

I dislike menal's ddl push fwiw

Dislike as in disagree with, or dislike as in scumread?

More the first, a little the second.

[DogWatch]

Would you say activity is scummier than no activity?

is this directed specifically to alim?

Not necessarily, because I'm fencesitting between GL/Creature over this and want to hear opinions.

[DogWatch]

Like, it's not scum indicative to lurk in itself

What do you think of post 977?

[DogWatch]

No activity is more anti-town than activity.

That's true, but it's not allignment indicative

Then what are you seeing in GL's recent posting to make you think he's town?

[DogWatch]

and also to reiterate in case y'all missed it in game #1 there's little to no evidence that Creature thought AF was "obvious" town. "Town" sure, but in his last post sequence he went from saying one post was fake to another being "probably" genuine. I'd say Creature is worth lynching today for that alone, tbh, it doesn't feel genuine.

Where is that? I just ISOd him and saw no such thing.

[DogWatch]

Oh I’m sorry, you were referencing a whole other game, no wonder.

[DogWatch]

@GL you have lately been displaying a kind of transparency that is looking more townie to me, I think you’ve been very levelheaded in defending yourself from an aggressive wagon and the more I read you the more my mind frames your posts as town perspective, if that makes sense. Your willingness to be wrong about alimida looks town considering the spot you were in at the time, I think scum would usually handle that differently?

UNVOTE: GL

[DogWatch]

Dont like resurrecting the amrun wagon. No creature post since his return has improved his position in my mind and I think I’m parking here:

VOTE: creature

[DogWatch]

@sal, why are you TRing menal? Didn’t you dislike the DDL push and had him as a partner candidate for scum!creature?

[DogWatch]

menal weirdly defensive of an open question

[DogWatch]

Find it weird that I’m not dead in a world of ddl scum

this is just wifom though

[DogWatch]

menal weirdly defensive of an open question

I don’t think this is being defensive but ok

maybe i'm misreading 1373 tonally

[DogWatch]

Scum can pick Guns, Aaron

it's kinda wifom but this made me townread aaron a little more since forgetting scum could pick gun would be more of a town perspective

[DogWatch]

Hah, it actually read to me as a fake ~townslip~

that's why I try really hard not to read too much into slips of any nature.. but it is something I picked up on regardless

[DogWatch]

VOTE: DogWatch

The transition to the Creature vote felt forced to me, like scum finally deciding to hop onto a mislynch

I don't need to force a vote on someone I've been scumreading since early game, GL.

[DogWatch]

I explained my hesitancy to vote him at the time, and I also explained why I eventually moved from you to him, so I don't see why you find anything about it 'forced.'

[DogWatch]

I also think it's a pretty comical accusation from someone who jumped on the amrun wagon the way you did.

[DogWatch]

This is like, my entire point though. You made very sure to explain to us throughout that you were scumreading Creature. Then when a wagon started on him, you made very sure to explain to us that you were not sure what to do. Then when you voted him, you made very sure to tell us why you were finally voting him. It reads like a mechanical and crafted/calculated scum trajectory, not organic town doing shit to try to generate information.

Because one of the criticisms of this game was that few people were explaining their votes, so it made sense to do that. I just think it's good to explain your thought process when you vote.

"comical", why use that word instead of something that might describe my alignment? You're more focused on discrediting the content of what I'm saying than evaluating me. And are we really still talking about that damn amrun vote when there's been probably 1000 posts since then?

I can't just state what I think? It struck me as funny, that's all. And I don't think your vote is AI, so there's no reason to describe your alignment in relation to it.

[DogWatch]

Here, I am accusing you of having

all the reasons in the world

to vote Creature, yet it still took you a long time to do it and you seemed very self-conscious about what might happen when you do.

Did you not have very similar situation with alimdia when you voted amrun? I don't think these circumstances are as different as you think.

[DogWatch]

Fair enough, they're not so similar really. But I disagree about being mechanical in any way, it could be that we just think things through differently or articulate them in different ways. I notice your posts lean more on the side of stream of consciousness.

[DogWatch]

like I would have less of a problem with you if you had hopped on Creature immediately. Are you understanding that?

I do, but since my vote was on you, you naturally would

[DogWatch]

I'm not so convinced scum was on that wagon tbh. It was the amrun wagon that felt more scummy to me, not creature's.

[DogWatch]

tex and menal ping me most currently. I don't know what to think about SS yet but he is a possibility. If there's any scum on creature's wagon, I'd lean towards Icon. I don't think DDL is scum fwiw.

[DogWatch]

I assume there's no way to know if a N1 rose was hit last night?

How does asking this help anyone but scum?

[DogWatch]

If a town gun hit a town rose, scum would want to know that is what I’m saying.

[DogWatch]

Sorry, was sick as hell over the weekend and haven't even looked at my games. Will try to catch up today.

[DogWatch]

VOTE: menal
your ddl push is gross and your GL push is gross

[DogWatch]

Aaron is again starting to remind me of myself in 1949
VOTE: Aaron

I've missed a lot but can you tl:dr this?

[DogWatch]

I don't know, the way he's speaking sorta, the TR on Amrun was weird, the reasoning feels weird, and the way he kept talking about PoE just reminds me of stuff scum!me did in that game

That said... I would really like to hear your answer to 1453

Not much to say, the amrun wagon's momentum felt more scum-driven to me in retrospect is the point i was trying to make, the first part is just me misremembering who was on it. So it's unlikely scum wasn't on the creature wagon.

[DogWatch]

I'll lynch anyone below the line today.

Amrun
DDL
Icon
Aaron
alimda
GL
____

menal
texcat
ss
datisi

[DogWatch]

my guess is mental but doubt anyone is voting there today but me

[DogWatch]

i didn't see that texcat replaced out. I would remove that slot from my lynchpool for now... I want to hear something from GE to help me better read that slot.

[DogWatch]

Howdy
Anything in particular I should know, and is there any particular part of the game I should read?

your slot is one of the vaguest in the game and most players have openly stated they'd lynch it

[DogWatch]

Howdy
Anything in particular I should know, and is there any particular part of the game I should read?

your slot is one of the vaguest in the game and most players have openly stated they'd lynch it

which is pretty ironic coming from me having been MIA for like 3 days

[DogWatch]

and I think regardless of your alignment he would make sense as scum

How does DDL make sense as scum if menal is scum? That would be some pretty hard bussing.

[DogWatch]

DW, how caught up are you? I was the first to spit out the DDL/Mena tinfoil theory before that

ugh I'm skipping around a lot honestly, so not great. kinda half-coherent in a hospital bed right now.
anyway, can you link me to your ddl/menal stuff?

[DogWatch]

so, if I'm understanding correctly, and I might not be, you think that it's worth calling Menal's bluff on the DDL lynch?

[DogWatch]

I think dog watch is scum if amrun is and is fairly likely scum if amrun is not

What is your logic pairing me and amrun? I don't follow your SR on me.

[DogWatch]

alright I gotta run for now but I have been considering another go at the DDL wagon because I haven't liked his D2 play at all - most recently the way he asked me about my comment on his reads while also claiming to townread me was kinda jank - and I think regardless of your alignment he would make sense as scum, so maybe we can come together on that one, but I'll be out for the rest of today most likely so gonna leave it at that for now, in any case I appreciate you engaging with me more directly as it feels productive

So
I shouldnt call you out for saying I have good reads when they are orthogonal to yours

I am also amazed that you think my day 1 play is stronger when I did nothing.

This whole progression makes 0 sense

No, GL's whole point Day 1 was that he thought you WERE doing things, which is partly why he didn't like the menal push.

[DogWatch]

Doing an ISO on DDL... his entire Amrun tunnel is shallow as hell tbh

[DogWatch]

I understand both SS and amruns perspective and they come from so different mindsets that it shouldnt be theatre

If you're SRing Amrun as passionately as you do, and if the Amrun/SS argument isn't theater, then does it follow that you scumread SS?

[DogWatch]

I understand both SS and amruns perspective and they come from so different mindsets that it shouldnt be theatre

If you're SRing Amrun as passionately as you do, and if the Amrun/SS argument isn't theater, then does it follow that you scumread SS?

Actually that should say townread SS

[DogWatch]

@GL after looking at ddl in iso I’m coming around to him as scum but I’m NOT seeing an argument for a menal/DDL team.. this is where I’m stuck

[DogWatch]

actually I might not because would scum so blatantly tunnel amrun all game? I hate the tunnel fwiw but is it scum, I dunno

[DogWatch]

what I also think is weird having reflected on it more is DDL townreading Menalque, like, this dude was calling you scum all D1 and trying to get you lynched and you aren't suspicious of him in the slightest? really? I suggest I might switch to DDL and he decides to call me out while making no mention of Menalque?

I legit lol’d when I read this. So I just went and ISO’d DDL again and menal doesn’t even make an appearance in the entire ISO with the exception of one offhand comment that DDL likes him. It does seem extremely unrealistic to barely mention someone who’s been calling for your blood like two game days straight.

[DogWatch]

VOTE: DDL

[DogWatch]

@datisi I don’t think your tinfoil hat theory is too bad actually

[DogWatch]

VOTE: menal
your ddl push is gross and your GL push is gross

okay why are those pushes gross and why do them being gross make me the most likely player to flip scum fypov

I don't think you're the MOST likely to flip scum at this point, I think DDL is, especially after GL's 1747 which I found highly incriminating. He also makes a great point that low resistance to an inevitable lynch is not pro-town nor consistent with DDL-meta. I'm still toying with the idea of your DDL push being bus station theater (your unvote at L-1 looked sus from that perspective) but if DDL is town then I think you're indeed a lot less likely to be scum.

And I can't remember specific posts at the moment but you threw a lot of misrep at GL (calling him over-defensive for instance, which is laughable) a few pages back that I couldn't agree with and you looked reachy. Like, if you think scum is coasting, then GL can't be scum. It was one of your worst posts in the game imo, other than 1767.

[DogWatch]

I mean he expressed confidence in his datisi scumread multiple times

Yeah but Creature said Amrun was scum ten times

Is this a real sentiment?

Pret said Datisi was scum almost as many times with more reasoning and oomph behind it, to boot.

For what reason do you literally not even register Pret’s reads, or anything Datisi has done even though they’ve been quite active, but have memorized Creature’s ISO even though he wasn’t here for half of the game day?

Seriously, what on earth?

I don't think 1874 was serious but I am pretty baffled at whatever logic SS has been using in his reads. On the face of it, I think the back-and-forth between SS and Amrun is probably TvT though because what motivation would scum!SS have in sheeping one flipped townie over another? It seems like a weird stance to take.

[DogWatch]

if ddl flips scum then bussing isn't a bad thing to look at but it is a terrible thing to look at re:me given the fact that I am an outspoken proponent of not bussing and on a more meta level: why do I choose to break that as scum rn when team mafia is coming up in all of 2 weeks or so

I’m inclined to believe this actually. Menal is such a meta-reliant player (something I can’t relate to) that it seems sensible he’d want to remain consistent with this stance for his own sake. If DDL flips red like I think then menal probably gets a hard TR from me.

[DogWatch]

@gamma I truly don’t mean this as an insult because I hate toxicity in these games, but dude, your slot might as well still be empty. I didn’t love your slot when texcat had it and you really haven’t done anything with it to change that. The one thing we needed from you was content and you’re 8/82 pages in, and that’s not nearly enough to sort you. Can you start on like D2 at least? I feel like reading your slot is imperative to solving this because most of us are really lacking in confident reads across the board.

[DogWatch]

@all, is there any site-meta on replacement alignment?

[DogWatch]

GL is the lowest SR, DW and SS are on the same highest level and GA slot is literally because they haven't said stuff

Why on earth is GL your biggest SR?

[DogWatch]

I feel like my SRs are more process of elimination at this point, not so much that those slots have done anything overtly scummy.

{GL, Amrun, Icon, Menalque}
{Datisi, Alim}
{SS, Gamma}

[DogWatch]

Claiming literally just tells scum where they can shoot for a guaranteed kill

^this

[DogWatch]

VOTE: Gamma

[DogWatch]

Why gamma > SS, dw?

Partly to pressure that slot into providing some actual content, also because I'm really having a hard time understanding SS in this game. I REALLY don't get his Creature sheeping but I also read his 1v1 with Amrun as TvT, so my head is kinda spinning with his slot.

[DogWatch]

Why gamma > SS, dw?

Partly to pressure that slot into providing some actual content, also because I'm really having a hard time understanding SS in this game. I REALLY don't get his Creature sheeping but I also read his 1v1 with Amrun as TvT, so my head is kinda spinning with his slot.

What was it about that exchange particularly that made you think it was TvT?

I mentioned it before but I'm not seeing what motivation scum!SS would have in sheeping one dead townie over another, and I still largely TR amrun. I think I need to reevaluate both slots though because I'm clearly going wrong somewhere in this game.

[DogWatch]

My preferred lynch list today is:

{Texcat slot; s_s; datisi; alimdia}

Does calling it “texcat slot” mean you’re voting this slot more due to texcat’s contributions instead of Gamma’s? For me it’s kinda a mix of the two but I feel like this slot needs way more pressure and discussion than it’s gotten.

[DogWatch]

From Amrun's POV then, whos scum? Mena? Since he pushed the Amrun wagon hard. But no, Amrun says Datisi, me, texcat, SS is the lynchpool

Why does amrun have to scumread Mena just because he pushed a D1 wagon?

[DogWatch]

Why couldn't she be scum who actually reread because she thought it would help her look townier?

I think people tend to underestimate how far some scum players are willing to go. I don't know about amrun personally, but I don't think GL's reasoning here is particularly AI either way generally speaking.

[DogWatch]

DW, did you give a pool for today?

Yeah, here:

I feel like my SRs are more process of elimination at this point, not so much that those slots have done anything overtly scummy.

{GL, Amrun, Icon, Menalque}
{Datisi, Alim}
{SS, Gamma}

S_S is the odd one out for me. I don't particularly SR him but like I said, process of elimination. I do think it's worrying that he has the second most posts in the game yet I'm not really catching on to anything he's done or reading him with any confidence. My goal today is to ISO him, especially in relation to amrun.

[DogWatch]

There's an ongoing S_S/Amrun "feud" that I kept thinking was TvT, but that doesn't make much sense when I look at my reads, so... I dunno, I'm clearly overlooking something with one of those two.

[DogWatch]

Ugh
As much as I hate the Gamma slot from a gamestate pov I'd say it's Town? But that would mean my reads are pure garbage as usual

Amrun might be scum actually, and I am getting more and more paranoid of Mena but that team doesn't make sense to me rn

I'm still kinda confused why Aaron was killed?
And there's this one post of Sala that is really fucking Bugging me

Why do you think Gamma is town? And why did you feel the need to bring up Sal's post again? Like, what about it is still relevant?

[DogWatch]

Actually I could see Gamma being town for the sole reason that it doesn't appear they are a part of any coordinated effort. Not that one member of a scum team could go renegade but it doesn't look like that here.

[DogWatch]

UNVOTE: Gamma

[DogWatch]

@Datisi, where are you with Amrun/S_S?

[DogWatch]

And Amrun is definitely among the lowers in my pool, and the reasons GL is using to TR her really don't sound that convincing

I've had it in my head that Amrun is town for so long that I don't think I'm properly questioning it. Like I really don't remember WHY I'm TRing her.

[DogWatch]

I keep thinking alimdia is Icon, your avatars have such similar colors to my eye.

[DogWatch]

I mean I can give you this.

Amrun is accusing people (me and Gamma) of coasting while not asking any questions to us. That means she doesn't actually want us to contribute more if we're town so she can straighten out her read on us.

Complete BS. I had a whole back and forth with you and you provided NOTHING. N-OT-H-I-N-G

You clung to creatures read and argued semantics over it and explicitly absolved yourself of any responsibility for your read on me. What else is there to ask? You’re sidestepping responsibility so you can’t be blamed when it’s wrong.

Texcat isn’t here to ask questions to. Gamma is on page 9 and dragging out his catchup - I’ve had interaction with him too. I’ve been trying to motivate content there with my vote and trying to drum up a wagon that has seen a shocking amount of resistance.


This post is total hot air BS.

This right here. IIRC, Amrun didn't accuse SS of coasting until after she'd done a whole back-and-forth with him. 2308 is a misrep.

[DogWatch]

you can't call us out for "not thinking critically" when you aren't taking a lead on steering people towards the wagons you want.

Since when?

When was the last time you voted anyone except Amrun? Or tried to steer the game towards anyone else at all? Like half your ISO is centered around Amrun at a glance.

[DogWatch]

But I don’t really have a problem with a datisi/S_S scumteam anyway.

Would scum need to bus at this point? I think Datisi leading this wagon looks very town.

[DogWatch]

But I don’t really have a problem with a datisi/S_S scumteam anyway.

Would scum need to bus at this point? I think Datisi leading this wagon looks very town.

Well unless Datisi is scum and SS is town but I don't see that.

[DogWatch]

my main townread is alim

Can you talk about this? I don't really see how.

[DogWatch]

Preferred claim order for me: Gamma - Alim - Datisi - Icon - Menal - Amrun

[DogWatch]

Preferred claim order for me: Gamma - Alim - Datisi - Icon - Menal - Amrun

Actually I'd prefer Icon claim last.

[DogWatch]

Gamma goes first but good luck getting him here. Will take a couple days.

[DogWatch]

Oh he did claim rose but didn't say which night

[DogWatch]

Actually I don't see scum motivation in alim giving a 48hr hammer notice, I had him as POE scum but I'm rethinking that

[DogWatch]

Hmm I guess they could, I just didn't envision scum dragging out hammers like that

I'm cool with popcorn style, does anyone object to that? And do we want to get a night on Gamma's rose claim first?

[DogWatch]

I don’t think gamma’s last few posts look at all like town playing to win but I’m trying to discern if that’s because he’s really actually scum or if he just doesn’t give a fuck. Not wanting to massclaim after being pretty much the first player in the game (iirc) to ask for a massclaim is weird as hell especially at lylo.

My only view of him as town comes from the idea that he doesn’t look like a part of any coordinated effort, like he’s really out of left field every time he comes on, but it’s not unheard of for two scum to do all the work while the other flounders I guess.

Has anyone played with him before?

[DogWatch]

How does lynching scum!gamma out a conftown today if we’re skipping massclaim? I don’t get this post at all and I’m not even drunk.

[DogWatch]

I mean I’m more interested in lynching gamma than anyone else but it’s possible that a massclaim could change that. I don’t know if I’m willing to gambit on it. But I feel like you’re probably right that he’s eventually lynched regardless.

[DogWatch]

If you’re the scummiest slot at lylo and you’re actually town, you do a hell of a lot more than gamma has to clear yourself in order to play to your wincon. What is really more likely:

- gamma is town that has given up and doesn’t give a shit if town loses
- gamma is scum who is trying to coast to a likely win
- gamma is scum whose team wants to bus him at lylo

I don’t think it’s the last one because why would scum prolong the game when they could just push a mislynch?

[DogWatch]

The slot is so widely scumread that I don’t think post-flip towncred means a whole lot in this particular instance.

[DogWatch]

N1 rose

[DogWatch]

Icon I want you to go last.

[DogWatch]

Menal is next

[DogWatch]

Icon I want you to go last.

Before I claim, why was this DW?

Specific reason but I want your claim first

[DogWatch]

I am home with baby in tow as well, but so exhausted, running on fumes

Glad baby amrun is home

[DogWatch]

Menal just claim and stop dragging this out please

[DogWatch]

Strong hunch that I know exactly what’s going on here.

[DogWatch]

Well ehhhh there’s two main possibilities I think but both would be pro-town gambits..

[DogWatch]

It’s gamma-menal-datisi if I had to bet the game right now. Slight chance of amrun in place of datisi but I don’t think so.

[DogWatch]

Why are menal and datisi a team?

This is what’s giving me the most pause because if menal is scum then I believe he’d be very interested in making the correct associations in a lylo situation and it looks more like he’s been distancing you moreso than datisi

[DogWatch]

It’s gamma-menal-datisi if I had to bet the game right now. Slight chance of amrun in place of datisi but I don’t think so.

Who is gambiting according to you if it's not dats of mental

Srs question

If I'm right about what's happening then I can't answer just yet.

[DogWatch]

I have no idea anything Menalque is trying to say.

I’m glad I’m not alone. Sometimes I feel really dumb at this but I think really some players just can’t communicate.

[DogWatch]

Anyway fuck it.. I’ve been under a strong hunch all game that the remaining gun softed early on and I don’t know that anyone else noticed. Not enough to townlock them but enough to influence all my reads ever since.

[DogWatch]

Salamence you've done nothing but take cheap shots at me all game, and been treating me incredibly unfair. If ur town I see absolutely no reason for you not to try and sort me properly instead of these under-the-belt takes you are having.

If ur scum, by all means keep going. Better kill me tonight then tho.

This is the soft I was talking about, or at least what I thought was Icon softing gun. My assumption earlier was that Icon was trying to draw out a cc.

[DogWatch]

@DW when you get on can you claim
'gun'

or

'im rose and if i ever claim gun in the future lynch me'

I'm not the gun

[DogWatch]

Salamence you've done nothing but take cheap shots at me all game, and been treating me incredibly unfair. If ur town I see absolutely no reason for you not to try and sort me properly instead of these under-the-belt takes you are having.

If ur scum, by all means keep going. Better kill me tonight then tho.

This is the soft I was talking about, or at least what I thought was Icon softing gun. My assumption earlier was that Icon was trying to draw out a cc.

Why would icon be trying to draw out a CC on D1?

Not on D1. During the massclaim.

[DogWatch]

Ohhhhhhh

Yeh that makes much more sense

What’s the scum team, gun to your head?

If Icon is town and truly not gambiting then it makes more sense for gamma to be gun than for anyone else to be lying. So, gun to head, I'd say menal/amrun/dats but there was like 15 pages created while I was asleep so I need to go back through.

If Icon isn't gun then I'm scared that I'm not reevaluating him properly in light of that. I don't see menal/icon though.

Dats/menal doesn't seem that bad to me because if dats were scum and menal were town I think we'd have a NK'd menal by now. And I don't think they're both town for almost certain.

Tr'ing alim so by poe that leaves amrun. I could see some menal/amrun distancing in recent pages.

I dunno, this is a fucking mess. I'm going to ISO icon today and see if he fits moreso than amrun.

[DogWatch]

sorry everyone, i had some personal shit go down yesterday and wasnt online.. give me a chance to read through please

[DogWatch]

convenient for??

[DogWatch]

I'm still jumping around a lot but right now i'm liking amrun/icon/alim as the most sensible solve.

I don't think menal/amrun makes sense anymore nor does menal/alim really. Working on a case atm, bear with me.

[DogWatch]

VOTE: amrun
fuck it

[DogWatch]

My heart is still racing from that quickhammer that no one wanted to go first

[DogWatch]

All credit goes to menal. He carried most of the game's strategy. I was just along for the ride.

I had no fucking idea what to do today when I got back.

[DogWatch]

I knew Icon was going to be a problem late game, I wanted him shot but we went with AFF for some reason

[DogWatch]

I'm going to let a player from the scum team just hammer for their team instead of requiring them to coordinate a quick hammer.

This is a thing?

[DogWatch]

gg scum

Why'd you shoot me?

IIRC, you came out of the DDL lynch looking really town and it seemed like you were being townread pretty well in general, plus you tunneled one of us. Honestly though I wanted Icon dead that night but it was a 2-1 vote.

[DogWatch]

Amrun, I'm surprised you got me and alim as a team when I felt like I did a better job distancing alim than I did menal.