Mini Normal 2159 | Cinder Block Mafia | Game Over!

[RCEnigma]

Also first.

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: Nosferatu let's dance

[RCEnigma]

I don't even remember signing-up for this game. Sorry if you think my post is bad, but given people are still posting things like 'this is the fourteenth post,' there isn't exactly a high bar to reach.

Thank you for the info though, Walter.

Be a leader not a follower.

[RCEnigma]

We don't know anything about the set-up?

No idea how many mafia there are, if there are more than two factions? No idea what roles people might have?

This is weird. I don't like it.

Assume the setup is 10-3.

If we Lynch 3 mafia and the game doesn't end. Panic.

[RCEnigma]

1. What is your mafia experience?
2. What is your play style strength(s)? Weakness(es)? Do you know?
3. In your opinion, what is the most important thing to look for while scumhunting? While townreading?

1. Every game that has or will ever exist.

2. Strengths? Physical, I will bench press all of you.
Weakness?.........weakness????

3. Most important to look for scum when scum hunting I would think. I don't townread anyone ever so that's not relevant.

[RCEnigma]

By the end of page 3 I will have caught 1 scum.

Proceed.

[RCEnigma]

The first player who caught my attention was SJReaver (newbie greeting tell in #13), but they've done it before as town (Newbie 2020).

Can we add this to the list of fallacies or scrub it from the wiki? This isn't a thing.

[RCEnigma]

My biggest concern, though, is with RCEnigma. #36 and #37 look like the sort of posts made by someone who is trying to be hard to read, for whatever reason. #36 is just a straight-up "help a newbie" post; such posts are generally good for the game, but townies tend to answer them as a side thought while doing something else, whereas scum tend to realise "ooh, this is something I can answer without giving anything away" and just answer them, betraying the fact that they aren't really thinking about the game more generally. #37 is an incredibly guarded answer to RQS questions, and the first time I've seen such questions actually produce alignment-indicative answers.

36 really should have said, stop rolefishing. So fair.

37 doesn't really matter, I have seen it produce alignment indicative answers previously but that was a newbie game and I think you're all big boys and girls.

[RCEnigma]

By the end of page 3 I will have caught 1 scum.

Proceed.

Nope. By the end of day 1 no one will have caught scum. Never happened before, it isnt going to change here

What if I told you I've already caught 2?

[RCEnigma]

COJ why does your sjr read end at 22 and not say... 27 where Sjr had already done exactly what you're scumreading me for?

[RCEnigma]

NM might be town lol.

[RCEnigma]

I'm with it VOTE: SJReaper

[RCEnigma]

I'm with it VOTE: SJReaper

Could you point out what you view as scummy exactly from SJ?

Okay, I'll help you out: I am scum.

10000% scum.

[RCEnigma]

Because that sort of post is more scummy from someone who has a lower post count. It doesn't matter much if one individual post is being guarded/defensive if the rest of the ISO is giving away information. It does matter if the majority of a player's posts are being cagey and the rest of the ISO isn't there.

Don't bullshit a bullshitter. Which posts were SJR giving away information pre post 50? Much less by post 27.

[RCEnigma]

By the end of page 3 I will have caught 1 scum.

Proceed.

Nope. By the end of day 1 no one will have caught scum. Never happened before, it isnt going to change here

We just played together in a game where I caught scum day 1

We lynched a townie day 1

Fact checked by RCE.

[RCEnigma]

Geraintm is an honest guy, I like that. But I'm scumreading him for not getting the 42nd post.

[RCEnigma]

#30? #32? #22? Even #13? These are the posts of someone who talks too much, not the posts of someone who doesn't talk enough.

Doesn't answer my question, but let's go deeper anyway.

Did you read these posts as alignment indicative one way or the other?

[RCEnigma]

I'm with it VOTE: SJReaper

Surely it couldn’t have been this easy?

It was actually even easier than that tbh. As I'll explain in my tell all book later this day phase.

[RCEnigma]

Number by names is post count as of the vote count.

[RCEnigma]

Then the long and short is you scumread multiple sjr posts but not 27 because it's not indicative if the slot has other scum indicative posts.

But it also is indicative if that same post is made by a slot that has other scum indicative posts...but less of them.

From your pov.

[RCEnigma]

Instead, you look at what people post, and think "why is this person posting about X? why is this person not posting about Y, when they apparently had the time to post about X?" Then you work out what reads a player must have in order for their actions to make sense, and if their apparent reads don't match their stated reads, perhaps there's scum there.

Mostly to see if my I initial read on your slot was accurate.

I can agree on the above and this is ironically pretty close to what brought me to that read.

[RCEnigma]

Scum was still caught day 1

I am 100% sure I can go through every single game on this site and find someone on day 1 claiming they have caught scum that by the end of the game will be true. but they don't get lynched....

Err if you want to see a game scum was caught page 1-2 and lynched day 1 I can oblige.

[RCEnigma]

A sign of intelligent life. (Thought it’s Reaver, not Reaper)

The very nature of percentages means that there’s no way I could be over 100% scum. That I claim to be more than that suggests I’m either a liar, an idiot, or both. Either way, you don’t want someone who can’t handle basic math in elo.

1000 is bigger than 100 and that's good enough for me feller.

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: Walter

[RCEnigma]

Frog is probably town. That's a wild wild take.

[RCEnigma]

RCEnigma is probably the most likely scum on the Walter wagon (#256 looks a lot like a post-justification of "why this wagon, not that one?"), although this isn't all that strong a tell.

The Implication frog was making was that Nosferatu looks scummy for establishing a counterwagon (presumably frog would believe on town) but Frog would be the wagon Nosferatu is pushing pressure away from, making Nosferatu scummy for diverting from scum onto town.

Scum doesn't theater like that and I don't believe nos/frog to be partners. Also don't believe frog suggests he's scum being wagoned away from.

[RCEnigma]

How does scum usually theater?

Not by implying to the thread that they are partners....I would imagine.

[RCEnigma]

...and I don't believe nos/frog to be partners.

Why not? Could you be wrong there?

I could be wrong about everything I've said here. But it would be silly of me to think I am.

[RCEnigma]

everyone is probably town, it isn't a very wild take at all...

Frogs take was wild. For reasons stated in a follow up post.

[RCEnigma]

RCE is the only one who took my bait and I town read them. It makes me sad.

It wasn't great bait. Even my vote wasn't serious.

[RCEnigma]

Welcome to the inner machinations of my mind.

[RCEnigma]

I think my problem with this game is all of the surface level accusations that are surely to go nowhere. Some of them might even be on scum! But I only know one person that has voted scum for sure.

Nos I think you reducing Frogs case down to unintelligible babble is disingenuous at best. But the strong reaction to a weak case concerning.

What's more concerning is your attention being directed at frog and not the following votes on a wagon that you should recognize doesn't hold much weight.

What's up man talk to me, what's got you bothered?

[RCEnigma]

Stop pissing off the mafia.

[RCEnigma]

Like JayZ said "it was all good just a week ago".

[RCEnigma]

What's more concerning is your attention being directed at frog and not the following votes on a wagon that you should recognize doesn't hold much weight.

IM VOTING someone on a wagon that doesn't hold much weight like what the fuck am i reading

The voters on YOUR WAGON.

[RCEnigma]

Gamma what if I told you that you aren't the scum I've found but you are one of the slots I'm scumreading at the moment?

[RCEnigma]

But I only know one person that has voted scum for sure.

?

I see not mafia is being their normal day 1 self too

It's Raya, literally the only person to vote scum for sure this game.

VOTE: CFJ

[RCEnigma]

I’m doing Creature style reads this game, deal with it

ItalianoVD
callforjudgement

Gamma Emerald

BananaCucho

SJReaver

Not_Mafia
geraintm
Raya36
Frogsterking

Nosferatu

RCEnigma
sordros

WaltertheDunce10

Linethrough = townread, italics = not exactly a townread but don’t want to vote there
FYI I will probably work on tuning my reads soon

And I assume neither means neutral or null ?

Neither means still a possible suspect
I am feeling like this will be a PoE game for me FYI

@RCE

I would be intrigued because it implies there is a scum you’ve caught by now.

But I only know one person that has voted scum for sure.

?

I see not mafia is being their normal day 1 self too

It's Raya, literally the only person to vote scum for sure this game.

VOTE: CFJ

[RCEnigma]

Not yet no.

[RCEnigma]

@Mod

VC has inaccurate votes on Raya.

Fixed, and added "CFJ" as a nickname.

-gb

[RCEnigma]

I still don't get this. raya has voted for not mafia, callforjudgement and walter. are you saying you are 100% sure scum is within those 3? as you follow with a vote for callforjudgement, I assume this is what you meant.

Nope, Walter could be scum sure. NM town. 1 scum within cfj.

[RCEnigma]

Dayvig: Gamma

[RCEnigma]

Cfj is the easier to elim, so yes.

[RCEnigma]

I didn't explicitly point it out for some time
but Yeah I always knew it wasn't real, so with the newer playerbase for this game I figured it would garner some interesting reactions
Didn't end up being the case, very little seemed to come from it and everyone took it at face value.

It's poor form to cut someone else's reaction test short tho

the dayvig is one of the most forced and troll reaction tests there are

almost no one actually does it unironically lol

This was more of a mark for death than a reaction test.

[RCEnigma]

It did go over an odd amount of heads though.

[RCEnigma]

Tayl0r Swift replaces sordros

Big fan.

[RCEnigma]

Weird though we get a scum then a fan post and before that Nm with a vote on a person who just replaced in

What does this even mean?

[RCEnigma]

hmm
I am not sure about it being hard to imagine, but I think for you the possibility of nos being town is far fetched. from 488.
Not sure I agree that sarcasm is weak.

Frog, Could you elaborate on why you think there are 4 scum?

Agreed with gerain on italiano's post on frog.
K, Gerain, you are saying it is how you play D1s.
497 seems towny, but then there seems to be a self-counscious statement with 'Have I explained myself well enough."
At least that is how I see it.
Weird though we get a scum then a fan post and before that Nm with a vote on a person who just replaced in.

(added bold)

I feel like no one looks very townie and from what little I know about the range this setup could be there are probably three or four scum. If the setup is balanced so that there are four scum against extra prs for town that could explain the general lack of towniness.

I would have preferred this not be explained. But +1.

[RCEnigma]

Damn. I really wanted my cfj read to be right, but Taylor is playing pretty on par with how i thought scum would rep in.

[RCEnigma]

At least a point for recognizing cfj interacting with nos isn't how town goes about sorting someone they believe is scum.

[RCEnigma]

whoops did not mean to hit submit there. sometimes im a bit premature.

407 (nos) uh calling you scum is scummy? by self voting as town arent you necessarily playing against wincon?
413 (gamma) in what world is a self-vote not scummy?
436 (banana) hmm odd timing depending on flips this could be an attempt at a counterwagon?

VOTE: cfj

inactivity followed by empty statements saying "this is scummy/towny" are scummy

yes because its totally me choosing to be inactive by subbing into a slot... do you feel that ive been inactive since subbing in?

Damn. I really wanted my cfj read to be right, but Taylor is playing pretty on par with how i thought scum would rep in.

how exactly would you expect scum to play? by catching up and offering thoughts?

By projecting themselves onto the leading wagon. It can appear "natural" since there aren't any previous reads or stances to double back on.

[RCEnigma]

also 4 scum is kind of insane for 13 players?

I highly doubt GB runs 4 scum but 9-4 normals aren't unheard of. They just suck.

[RCEnigma]

If cfj is scum I'm gonna shoot myself in the foot because I think I can make a pretty good case there. With that said I can make a good case for anyone not named sjreaver, frog, or Nosferatu.

But I agree the game is stale, I've fallen out of love with it and it's gone nowhere since I've stepped back. I kind of expected that.

VOTE: Italiano

[RCEnigma]

Helpful scumplay is still scumplay
Why do you think it’s worth keeping active scum alive?

Explain to me how we will lynch three players on D1 and I will.

Yeah Gamma, it's not rocket surgery OR brain science!

[RCEnigma]

(PEDIT: re #638)

The reasoning should be correct regardless of my alignment. If you think there's a mistake, please point it out so that I can re-evaluate my reasoning.

I agree that it points towards me as town, but that's hardly a reason not to mention it in thread! Of course, it's harder to be objective about something when it points to you as town, so it's possible I have some confirmation bias here (i.e. "this correctly predicts me as town, so it's more likely to be correct"), in which case it's especially important that you point out any flaws in my reasoning! But "this reasoning benefits CFJ and CFJ is making it" is not a reason to ignore it or consider it invalid.

I think the flaw is the wifom you've attached to it and looking at it from our point of view.

First, I have seen scum wagons sit around in a similar gamestate before. It's not nearly as common as town wagons but this doesn't entirely mean you're town.

Looking in from my point of view I see a player indirectly explaining why they must be town based on the gamestate. One way I can see it is this player is scum and for whatever reason (unhelpful scum mates, avoiding defending of scum mates, etc) has decided to defend himself but in a way that on face value doesn't appear to be a self defense. If someone else pointed it out it would appear more towny but the fact that it was you indirectly defending yourself adds wifom.

Of course I could also see it as town simply making an observation which would allow someone else come to the conclusion that it could point to them being town.

I see all of this as pointless since cfj isn't a wagon you entertained at it's height. Pushing this angle now is counterintuitive.

[RCEnigma]

?

[RCEnigma]

cfj is one of my scumreads... and this was just an observation I made that supports that

I get that. But one of your two scumreads has been close to elim for a few days now and you kinda just....opted to ignore the wagon as a whole until now. Which is cool, looks weird, but it's cool.

[RCEnigma]

Every second spent reading mafia is a burden to me.

[RCEnigma]

Aight I think Frog is scum and it looks like the interaction between him and Nosferatu is scum theatre. Frog’s reason is weak and forced. Nosferatu’s reaction to that weak forced case also seems weak and forced. That’s why my vote is there and will probably stay there. You voting for yourself is never a good idea imo.

I’m feeling a little off about callforjudgment. Very townie. Very beautiful and perfect posts. The best posts in the history of our country. You’ve never seen posts like these before. So beautiful.

This followed by the cfj vote in the very next post sent off all my alarms.

Frog touched on my issues with the cfj slot in a minor capacity and Taylor caught 1 point by pushing cfj's stance on nos.

Slots don't get wagoned for being townie and I have doubts of the validity of your scumread here.

[RCEnigma]

why this vote? ive really seen nothing so far to indicate you had suspicion of italiano, and this isnt a major wagon, so why join here? seems like now that theres a little momentum on walter that you come in and start a counterwagon. interesting.

No one's convinced me that Walter is scum. But I feel like Italiano can flip red by virtue of being outside of my townreads.

I'd like to flip all of Italiano, cfj, taylor, gamma, Raya, banana today and then reevaluate after.

[RCEnigma]

why this vote? ive really seen nothing so far to indicate you had suspicion of italiano, and this isnt a major wagon, so why join here? seems like now that theres a little momentum on walter that you come in and start a counterwagon. interesting.

No one's convinced me that Walter is scum. But I feel like Italiano can flip red by virtue of being outside of my townreads.

I'd like to flip all of Italiano, cfj, taylor, gamma, Raya, banana today and then reevaluate after.

Why banana? Tayl0r's vote on shelly (=banana) makes sense based on reads stated earlier, but this read is more of a surprise coming from you; you haven't commented much on the banana slot, and what it has posted seems to be thinking along similar lines to you (notably #436 expresses a very similar viewpoint to your #661). Is this just a process-of-elimination read?

I have no read either way on banana. They haven't done anything I find scummy or townie. If it doesn't look like town, burn it with fire.

[RCEnigma]

why this vote? ive really seen nothing so far to indicate you had suspicion of italiano, and this isnt a major wagon, so why join here? seems like now that theres a little momentum on walter that you come in and start a counterwagon. interesting.

No one's convinced me that Walter is scum. But I feel like Italiano can flip red by virtue of being outside of my townreads.

I'd like to flip all of Italiano, cfj, taylor, gamma, Raya, banana today and then reevaluate after.

Good luck : )

Hmm, I'm not sure you show this kind of machismo in a possible 1v1 as scum. Especially not when the scum is highly likely to have low scum experience overall.

[RCEnigma]

Like RCEnigma.

[RCEnigma]

Hot take: Shelly & Taylor are partners.

[RCEnigma]

Oh woah you said Shelly was scum, I guess you guys really can't both be scum. And since only town can physically type x is scum logic dictates you are town.

This was a blessed interaction.

[RCEnigma]

I will hammer whichever wagon hits E-1 first as soon as it hits E-1 no questions asked. Claims out if ya got em.

[RCEnigma]

honestly ill switch to shellyc

VOTE: shellyc

i town read this slot but i really don't like who's on the walter wagon with me

+1
VOTE: Shelly

[RCEnigma]

Walter isn't confirmed even if Italiano is FN. Whether he knew going into the night or night, there are some large conclusions being jumped to, will consolidate my initial day 2 reads when I do some wagon sniffing.

However Nos town from eod (alright felt like this was true but ehh) as well as gerain. My vote on Shelly was kind of an eod prayer since deadline had already passed (even with the 2 hour delay) I threw it on Shelly thinking it probably wouldn't count but hey if it did we get a flip.

Gerain 100% could have just opted not to hammer and had already established he would probably miss eod.

Regardless I think it's an offwagon day. NM looks more like a pr hunt than anything else and should NOT dissuade off wagon hunting.

But RC, why would scum shoot offwagon if they weren't on the Shelly wagon? Well silly little townie, cuz mafia.

[RCEnigma]

Since we're making assumptions.

Assumption 1: frog is in a hood
Assumption 2: this game is not 9-4
Assumption 3: I can end this game by day 3 potentially.

I'm a PT cop and have a result on someone that is not frog/walter/Italiano.

[RCEnigma]

at this point it may be helpful for everyone to claim whether or not they are in a neighborhood. no need to claim neighbors, but it would be very helpful for me to understand my role. i can claim/explain everything or at least something based on what people say.

Will wait on this to out it. I have an idea of what Taylor's role is but I'll wait on that as well.

[RCEnigma]

Player List:
ItalianoVD claims hood
callforjudgement claims no hood
Gamma Emerald
Looker
geraintm
Raya36
Frogsterking
Nosferatu
RCEnigma
Tayl0r Swift
WaltertheDunce10 claims hood

[RCEnigma]

While that is a lot of power that I definitely could have pushed a lynch through with.

I'm retracting my claim. @Taylor I'm not really gunning for you any more I think your reaction was pretty genuine, interesting you brought up the ascetic modifier because I do believe scum to be ascetic or Walter is just scum.

Mostly this was to prevent wiggle room for scum in the worst case and force a head to head in the best.

Doesn't change my position that burning off wagon probably ends the game.

[RCEnigma]

Going on VC's alone I'd probably go CFJ today. For CFJ to be town AND have banana NOT position themselves on wagon would require an sjreaver + nos team.

Since we know for sure at the height of the CFJ wagon (E-2) Banana was off wagon and Raya had expressed CFJ as a top scumread while vote parking elsewhere. It wouldn't have taken much for scum to push that wagon through.

[RCEnigma]

ok and im back to having enigma as scum. you outed me as PR and there were better ways of getting everyone to claim whether they were in a PT. you also didnt answer the question about whether you are ascetic. VOTE: enigma

Uhh, no I didn't. You brought up claiming hoods so it would make your role make sense.

This was before I claimed.

[RCEnigma]

at this point it may be helpful for everyone to claim whether or not they are in a neighborhood. no need to claim neighbors, but it would be very helpful for me to understand my role. i can claim/explain everything or at least something based on what people say.

Since we're making assumptions.

Assumption 1: frog is in a hood
Assumption 2: this game is not 9-4
Assumption 3: I can end this game by day 3 potentially.

I'm a PT cop and have a result on someone that is not frog/walter/Italiano.

For reference.

[RCEnigma]

Walter has been scum read in every game I've seen him play. The man has a flair for being miseliminated.

No updated VC, I see. Give me time to see what you've been up to and find out how easy it is to slip under the radar.

This is helpful info. Is there a reason you can put your finger onto why Woolter seems to be scum read a lot?

He has a sparse posting style and doesn't engage in much of the back-and-forth other posters do that make them sticky* in other's minds. He's poor at defending himself because he tends to remain calm and level-headed. His reads are average but he's not the best at making a case, so other town posters tend to value him less.

In the first game I played with him, it was the end of D1 and we were one vote away from eliminating Walter. He came off as being okay with it. The reason we caught scum was that rolling him was so nice and easy, they made a 'jokey' post that obvscum mindset.

If it's not clear, I'm currently townreading him. Because of the consistency in his playstyle, I'll probably lock that in for D1 and then revisit it D2 when we have a flip and I can see how he positions himself.


*It's somewhat tangential, but group psychology often favors people who provoke any sort of emotional reaction, even slightly negative ones.

Can you do me a favor

Can you carry me in your enormously giant townie backpack to victory?

This is definitely not a new scum v new scum interaction.

[RCEnigma]

I'm also not ascetic no.

[RCEnigma]

Can't speak for nos but glad we agree it's likely cfj + Raya

VOTE: CFJ

[RCEnigma]

Unsurprising that my wagon is going to be d1 off wagon voters +Taylor.

Oh RC lied? And? Worst case, nothing happens it does nothing to change how town responds to if they have a hood or not. Best case scum panic into claiming a hood. I did realize afterwards that if Walter is scum then the gambit was useless but it's worth playing out anyway.

I'm pretty sure I know what Taylor is going to claim so it isn't stepping on toes to throw it out there.

Rayas vote is oozing opportunism with 0 thought. Cfj...idk I could be wrong there and it's ray + gamma or Raya + walter. Cfj is kind of pushed into omgussing me here.

Cfj was on my radar from his first real post for the backwards logic regarding me and SJreaver and then handling sjreaver like he was talking to town instead of a slot he was unsure about and certainly not a slot he was suspecting as he had alluded to previously. This happened again with the nos vs frog situation and Taylor caught on but went wrong somewhere down the line idk where.

@CFJ: I ignored your questions in part from frustration but there's no point being a thorn for no reason.

Newbie games is a different indicator for my play so I'm going to exhibit what I consider to be proper play when handling players getting their feet wet.

Outside of newbie queue is different and yes I've fake claimed as both VT and as town PR. Which is a different case since I do have information that I'm manipulating. This isn't out of range for my townplay.

[RCEnigma]

No, the worst case is that someone counterclaims PT Cop before the neighbourhood massclaim is completed (most likely a townie; fakeclaiming scum would be risking a 50-50 chance of losing the game if the wrong member of the scumteam counterclaims). That's a pretty bad worst case, seeing as it would generally lead to you being eliminated today and the town power role who counterclaimed dying overnight.

Anyway, I managed to find an instance of you fakeclaiming as town (3-shot JOAT as 4-shot JOAT, adding on a Doctor shot), from 2018:
Subject: Large Normal 216 - Endgame

Inb4 scum has a roleblocker, but yes I can save you tonight. Afterwards I'm out of shots in my abilities so I'm counting on you to solve the game.

Subject: Large Normal 216 - Endgame

So all my abilities were 1 shot:

-Disloyal vig
-Cop check
-Commuter (couldn't be targeted) this was the night I tried to pull the night kill.

I very well could have lost this game for town last night. I don't have a protective ability. I just had to kind of bluff it to keep FL alive at least one more night regardless of who we flipped. If scum didn't buy it we lose FL anyway, I get lynched today and I think that's game if AP is scum. Town doesn't have a way to prevent 2v2 and I doubt there's only 1 scum left.

This was way harder to find than it needed to be. (I was assuming you'd be better at remembering which games you'd fakeclaimed in than I would at finding them, but apparently not?) It's also an instance where your fakeclaim was even riskier than the one here, so OK, this sort of thing is in your townrange.

(But seriously, where did the "Frogster is a neighbour" thing come from? That was kind-of out of left field and doesn't serve any obvious purpose in combination with the rest of the claim. Actually, it somewhat undermines the rest of the claim; an actual PT Cop who hadn't investigated Frogster would have no way of knowing he was a neighbour, unless the PT Cop was the other neighbour.)

Uhhh having a PT cop out would not be detrimental to town. PT cop dying with a vague soft could potentially be. So a PT cop outs, they have a clear I would assume since a guilty should be outed regardless. I retract and now town has 3 confirmed clears in the friendly neighbor neighbor, PT cop, and 1 clear. FNN is not a threat if their reads are not spot on. Town hasn't coalesced around Italiano so like....

Also sure, you didn't ask what games I've fake claimed just if I've done it.
Jazz mafia (on my alt, Tet) I was loyal vig with a guilty on scum and claimed I shot someone else (who was also scum)
Musicals mafia I was disloyal doc that softed an investigative
Mainstream mafia II I was lightning rod/messenger that faked a daycop inno to stop a disruptive 1v1.

I'll cede I inno'd scum there but retracted to get them lynched.

This game though is so "But the wiki says..." That I'm just not having any kind of fun and don't really mind getting out.

Frogster implied he was in a neighborhood with his theory that the game was a series of hoods and also 9-4. I didn't really believe in the theory but making the suggestion implied he had knowledge other hoods existed (because he was also in one) but it was a miscommunication. This is somewhat what prompted the claim.

[RCEnigma]

wondering how you are going to lash out against me now...
I dunno about you...you are just going to rile me up in every future game we play together, I wont be able to believe you ever. I hope you are having fun...

No I'm not apologizing, also no I'm not having fun. Also also no offense but if your stance is "you fakeclaimed one game so I can't trust you in this other game" then I'm not keen on playing together again. That's a silly way to approach mafia.

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: Raya having second thoughts about cfj but Raya is scum in every solve.

[RCEnigma]

Fwiw gerain I think you're town, I just think you see the game in a kind of 1 dimensional "this should happen, then this, then this" kind of way.

[RCEnigma]

Worst case is you're L-2 the following page (L-1 pending my vote)

I don't overly* care if it takes me being mis-elimmed for town to actually look at the offwagon voters and wagon progressions in general.

[RCEnigma]

so gamma raya and frog are all shading/trying to get a wagon on cfj. it could be that the remaining scumteam is in that set. raya also has some positive associatives with enigma. frogster and gamma have the weakest associatives, but that could be scum trying to not be obvious potentially. individually, i still think enigma has the most scum equity. that said, there are a few subtle things that make me question whether enigma is scum. the fact that the enigma wagon was derailed with pressure on cfj makes me think raya and enigma could be the pair. or maybe frogster and enigma. raya has associatives with all three other people. so that kinda makes me want to hit raya because raya is the likeliest to be scum. after reading a couple raya towngames this also feels a bit different.

Those are some mental gymnastics I'm not understanding. In the world that the team is me + Raya town would have had to redirect the wagon from me to cfj not scum as I didn't commit to hanging on the cfj wagon and it didn't build with me on it. Raya remained on me.

Then the next step to derailing my wagon would have been to wagon my partner in Raya instead? The only case that can be made there is Raya intentionally making her vote on me skeevy to scare off potential voters.

All that said my scum play is definitely not to pull attention on me after what would have been a buss on Shelly and then turning around and bussing Raya for no towncred. I might as well cede the game if that's the case. My scum game is bad, it's not THAT bad.

[RCEnigma]

The frogster association I get and if frog flips scum you can flip me for free.

[RCEnigma]

I don't get this vig theory at all. I agree that it is weird. Maybe CFJ thinks that people think that he killed NM? That still does not explain this theory though

I didnt think it...until he went to great lengths to say he had no idea why it happened

And yet I also kinda made a scene about the kill?

Cfj bringing up vig so often is interesting, I'm not sure what to make of it but I don't think vig fits the setup. For that town would have FNN + Taylor as a presumed pr + protective/rb + town kp in a vig which is insanely townsided for at best 2 scum prs.

NM was a scum kill.

[RCEnigma]

if theres only one neighborhood i find it to be exceptionally unlikely that its town-scum. if you're saying theres scum in you and walter, then it almost has to be you cfj.

Err what makes it unlikely to be town-scum?

[RCEnigma]

Should we split the wagons between you and Raya? You said you weren't overly* concerned with being elim'd

Do what you do. Don't get caught being the guy asking to be on the wagon though. It's going to look worse when I flip.

[RCEnigma]

Uhh, Italiano is fine shutting up until his target outs.

[RCEnigma]

It isn't a big deal and if his target doesn't out he can just out it before deadline or preferably in twilight.

[RCEnigma]

Town has no reason to rely on Italiano being confirmed right now or not. Or even at all today.

If Italiano is FN then cool, he gets confirmed today and the day continues as normal. Let's say his target doesn't claim today, scum has to kill him tonight or he hits town tomorrow. It's not like he's in danger of being lynched even without the claim.

[RCEnigma]

It's hard not to wanna lynch you.

[RCEnigma]

Elim you*

[RCEnigma]

Do you believe Shelly lurked out of the game because they were the designated buss or not?

[RCEnigma]

Votecount 1.13

shellyc(5)

~ Tayl0r Swift(42), Frogsterking(46), ItalianoVD(68), WaltertheDunce10(73), geraintm(70)

WaltertheDunce10(4)

~ Raya36(57), Not_Mafia(25), callforjudgement(68), Nosferatu(83)

ItalianoVD(2)

~ RCEnigma(66), shellyc(70)

geraintm(2)

~ Gamma Emerald(80), Looker(55)


Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-09-06 11:18:30)

MOD REMINDERS

• prodding Not_Mafia
  
• looking for a replacement for shellyc

Out of these I’d rather we come back to Geraint. I’d also be okay with Italiano, but Shelly and Walter are townreads (at least, I was townreading Banana)

Does scum waffle here with a partner being the leading wagon?

[RCEnigma]

Raya and cfj pushing the same angle still.

Cfj I asked about Shelly being bussed because I would find it difficult to believe with a wagon already leading on scum!Italiano, with Shelly involved -- would then designate Shelly as the buss and have her lurk out.

Also the spearheads of both the cfj wagon and Italiano wagon were mostly present on the Shelly wagon. It makes the walter wagon look a ton worse in retrospect. I mean, worse than it did in being the counterwagon to a scum flip.

Add in the night kill, likely to specifically set up a walter elim, and cfj you are part of the tandem pushing these counter-town angles.

I've kind of been wanting to give you the benefit of the doubt because maybe you're just a townie on the wrong side of the tracks. But you have not had the thought that maybe you had been voting against town interest and were wrong on walter with A.) The wagon composition on scumflip and 2.) The company you are keeping. For example Raya with soft defending the Shelly slot before votes were in favor of flipping Shelly.

[RCEnigma]

I had a different thought to add at the end but got distracted and forgot it.

[RCEnigma]

I don’t like the doubt being thrown around the town right now and it’s so obvious that it’s being done by scum. We were on track to look at the information from the scumflip. I’m pretty sure that’s the direction we were going in today, but misdirection is a powerful tool.

hey, lets not just blame people concerned about your reluctance as derailing today. Rcenigma did a pretty good job too

We get it dude, rc confuse me, rc bad.

[RCEnigma]

Votecount 1.FINAL

shellyc(7)

~ Tayl0r Swift(48), Frogsterking(47), ItalianoVD(69), WaltertheDunce10(75), Nosferatu(85), RCEnigma(67), geraintm(74)

-- HAMMER

WaltertheDunce10(3)

~ Raya36(60), Not_Mafia(29), callforjudgement(70)

geraintm(2)

~ Gamma Emerald(82), Looker(56)

ItalianoVD(1)

~ shellyc(70)


Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-09-06 11:18:30)

Of the 4 remaining offwagon slots, coming into the day I had sjreaver/looker as the most likely town in that grouping. But lookers reasoning and timing on gerain is a lot less natural than gammas in general + a couple of town indicators in their iso puts gamma up there for now.

Looker has been on a downward trajectory since repping in but I don't know if that's necessarily scummy or if it's just him wanting to be contrarian.

[RCEnigma]

My townlean has been weakening, probably just by being in the poe but it isn't enough to put me off from cfj/Raya.

I'd put up my whole yugioh collection that there is at least 1 scum in cfj/Raya.

[RCEnigma]

Hmm,I've got a theory actually but I still really want Raya out of here before I dive into that rabbit hole.

[RCEnigma]

Well, sometimes you gotta grab town by the balls.

[RCEnigma]

Like the trajectory of Raya was:

Scumread in walter/cfj - votes cfj
Frogster turns attention to nos and cfj wagon died out
Raya moves to walter because there are other voters
Walter wagon dies with cfj at L-3, Raya stays solo on walter.

There's no wagon on callforjudgement anymore while there is on Walter. Plus I can barely read judgements posts so I need to go back through later

So you voted for Walter because other people were voting for him?

No, I clearly stated in a post who the two people are I think could be scum (Walter and Judgement) and I explained why for each. I switched from Judgement to Walter because my vote was doing nothing and would be more powerful on a wagon

Doesnt follow through with this logic and explains staying away from the wagon on cfj (her scumread) where a vote would be useful by claiming pressure is better on walter to get reads and not cfj.

Then only really engages with walter over his stance on Nam's daycop joke. Which?? Confusion isnt alignment indicative.

Also makes no attempts to either : Case Walter or engage with townreads on their walter reads in any way.

If all of that sounds super town minded to you...... I guess.

[RCEnigma]

Damn, cfj might have to vote scum today.

Pedit: I was mistaken.

[RCEnigma]

With that said, RCEnigma seems pretty likely as an Italiano partner, and is also pretty likely scum if Italiano is town (even if Italiano thinks he has a good reason to wanting to increase the general confusion and antagonism surrounding the game at the moment, RCEnigma doesn't really).

It literally DOES NOT MATTER if Italiano is confirmed today or not. I take issue with you using it as a crutch for the gamestate when it is such a miniscule part of the day.

If he is FNN then he is either night killed tonight or he isn't and can confirm tomorrow regardless of who his target was last night. This affects 0 parts of the day today.

If he isn't FNN then he has two options, try and super anti spew his partner or have his partner claim to get the message. Worst case there ends up being a 50/50 down the line about which world to dive in but that's it. Italiano isn't being elimmed today regardless of alignment.

[RCEnigma]

Or are you deciding "OK, let's assume that Italiano's town, if he's actually scum it's OK if we accidentally waste the entirety of Day 2 and vote out a townie due to the lack of information because we'll then have caught scum Day 3". Then say Day 3 actually comes round, and there's a weird nightkill and Italiano claims to have targeted the killed player, and also that his Night 1 target was the Day 2 elimination.

Yes because we'll have traded town for scum. Which is 100% in favor of town.

[RCEnigma]

Again, remember that this wasn't a random Friendly Neighbour claim out of the blue; it was a claim to save himself, on explicit request by Tayl0r (who is very likely town).

Taylors been calling me too scum for 2 day phases so what do I care about her reads for?

[RCEnigma]

Or scum are ascetic, or there's a scum jk or, or, or, or.

[RCEnigma]

Then gg town wins.

[RCEnigma]

We're talking elim targets, scum get a NK every night. We aren't playing semantics.

[RCEnigma]

Then gg town wins.

I'm not convinced: in Nosferatu's scenario, then D3 we have Italiano (scum), Italiano's buddy (claims a town result on Italiano), 7 townies. We'll probably waste a few days miseliminating townies in that scenario, and if we do get suspicious of the Italiano+buddy pairing, we'll almost certainly eliminate the buddy first. At that point, we'll still have no idea whether or not Italiano is scum; after all, even if he's town, he could have targeted scum and the scum player in question would confirm him. I fail to see how this scenario is an automatic town win.

We're 11 now, 2v9. Say Raya is town and we elim town today tomorrow we are at 2v7 and scum!Italiano is "confirmed" by their partner, we elim another townie. 2v5. Scum!Italiano is still alive and has no confirmation message, claims to have fn'ed the night kill. Yes you're right we elim the partner first and on a scum flip Italiano is dead.

Say we get to that point and Italiano is town going through a series of unfortunate events AND we've been hitting town every single day because lol scum hunting is hard. Italiano is still in 2v3 Melo with the possibility to hit yet another target, though it's a significantly higher chance he hits scum and they just go nah no message. In that case yeah probably a deserved loss.

Also keep in mind this is all assuming Italiano is the only town power.

But like....3 miselims is a lot so I'm not particularly worried about this one thing having to be hashed out immediately or OMG WE CANT EVEN SCUM HUNT.

[RCEnigma]

It’s not quite exactly like you’ve said it, but you’re kind of in the area

Weasely.

[RCEnigma]

Did RCE get shook up by his wagon and flake?

Got me super sleuth.

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: RCEnigma don't have the want or need to wade through toxicity.

[RCEnigma]

I'm not defending Frogster to get towncred on myself. In fact, I knew when I made the post that I might get scumread for it. I don't care, though; this looks like the sort of game that will get solved by PoE, and being able to remove one player from the PoE will be helpful for that, even if they are being worse than useless at the moment.

I don't believe Frogster (or anyone else) is capable of faking Frogster's play this game when scum. That sort of violent self-destructive tunnelling is just not something someone can do without truly believing in it. (I appreciate that this argument is more convincing to me than it is to other people, because a hypothetical scum!Frogster could truly believe that a hypothetical scum!me is scum. But if you have an argument that needs me to be scum to be correct, it makes more sense to focus on me first.)

I think it's very unlikely that this setup is 9:4. (This is partially due to reviewer meta. Talking only about completed games only because I don't know the setup of ongoing games and can't talk about them anyway, the last time mastina reviewed a 9:4, there was a lot of discussion in the review thread about whether the game could be Normal; this ended up dominating discussion, and mastina accidentally entirely forgot to do a balance review. The game turned out to be very scumsided (it would have been scumsided even as a 10:3), mastina got called out on it in the Normal Review Group forums, and apologised. Given what happened last time, I think that it's basically impossible that she makes such a mistake again, and it's almost impossible to cram enough roles into a 9:4 with a normal day/night cycle to balance it,

especially

if you're letting the scum multitask by default). Incidentally, in the very unlikely situation that the setup

is

9:4, this almost guarantees that Walter is scum because otherwise it would have been almost trivially easy for scum to redirect the day 1 deadline wagon without looking overly suspicious.

The last 9-4 I was in had a like 8 person neighborhood, a traitor, a cop, an IC, a babysitter, and an informed goon. Scum won easily and that was with elimming traitor day 1.

[RCEnigma]

I believe Raya has maybe played with some other players here before?

Yes I've played with a few people on the list before

Does that happen to be the players you're voting with?

Just RCE I believe?

Err before you ask I don't have any kind of meta read on Raya and I generally tend to scumread them.

[RCEnigma]

That sounds unbalanced. Surely there can be a way to balance a 9-4.

There is. Make the setup 10-3.

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: Raya

Don't @ me.

[RCEnigma]

Oh I didn't actually know it was E-1, I was in prod range again. I stand by my lynch decision.

[RCEnigma]

Get Enigma. He was the most likely next option if people got off my wagon. He allowed no discussion of my claim. Didn't give a reason for hammering. Was scummy enough as is. Don't let him think about a reason for hammering the whole night then post it tomorrow and get out of this.

You were my scumread the entire day and if I'm choosing between my elim and my scumreads elim. Well, that's tough.

[RCEnigma]

LMFAO U DIDNT EVEN TRY TO MAKE AN EXCUSE

I don't need an excuse to elim my scumreads.

[RCEnigma]

I DID WHAT I DID BOYS.

[RCEnigma]

LMFAO U DIDNT EVEN TRY TO MAKE AN EXCUSE

I don't need an excuse to elim my scumreads.

now the story is that no excuse is needed, this was a scumread, not "oops it was an accident". i dont buy the double-answer here.

They aren't mutually exclusive, but go on Queen.

[RCEnigma]

lol Italiano he confirmed it
I agree with nos we launch rce for d3

I don’t know. I’ve been townreading RCE and his hammer doesn’t really change my thoughts on him. He said/kinda did the same thing Day 1, so he kinda has precedent for it.

You're 100% dying so this co-sign doesn't help me not get elimmed tomorrow.

It seems regardless of the flip even.

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: Raya

Don't @ me.

this post reads like a hammer. you dont say "dont @ me, L-2!!!"

Honestly, lol yeah I could see that.

That was for the mod not to prod me though.

[RCEnigma]

I reserve the right to not feel guilty until after the flip. If Raya flips town then yeah quickflip me idc. If she flips scum though I will let it be known that I will not be spoken to by anyone that was not also on both scumflips.

[RCEnigma]

lol Italiano he confirmed it
I agree with nos we launch rce for d3

I don’t know. I’ve been townreading RCE and his hammer doesn’t really change my thoughts on him. He said/kinda did the same thing Day 1, so he kinda has precedent for it.

You're 100% dying so this co-sign doesn't help me not get elimmed tomorrow.

It seems regardless of the flip even.

100% huh? Okay.

If Raya is scum, then I think you’re fine: bussing your partner in this situation with the suspicion you have on you is scumscuicide, game over. I think you only get got if she flips green. People are being emotional right now and not thinking. It very much depends on the flip.

Scum doesn't need someone around defending me if Raya flips town so yeah. 100%

[RCEnigma]

I said I wouldn't really fight my elim but 1589 is wrong in so many ways. I'll respond in ehhh the next 5ish hours.

[RCEnigma]

Also I thought Taylor was traffic analyst and not PT cop. PT cop with friendly neighbor neighbor suggests walter scum actually, if scum isn't already in a PT with town it makes the pt cop a full cop with hard clears instead of a soft investigative.

Haven't checked for who Taylor targeted night 1 but they would be essentially confirmed, not actually confirmed since jk is possible but they never mentioned no result.

[RCEnigma]

I should mention that this was a pretty difficult playerlist to play with, not in terms of personality (there's nobody here I hate talking to and many of the players were a lot of fun to be around), but in terms of readability. There were players who rarely explain anything (RCEnigma, Not_Mafia)

Sorry about this, it's an intentional thing. My playstyle and town is usually straightforward and very readable. My scum playstyle is not up to snuff making it also... Very readable. So will I reign both into a sweeter spot my general play is more erratic and less insightful.

Also apologize for dropping out. Real life came at me fast. But it was good playing with mostly everyone here!