Mini Normal 2181 | College Basketball Players | Game Over

[Prism]

I promise you that a 5 second skim of any scum PT I have posted in will reveal very, VERY quickly that this is not my scumgame.

[Prism]

That was at ffery, not you.

[Prism]

Mechanically balancing around completely misleading the town as a setup designer, rather than giving scum active counterplay, sounds like absolutely horrendous setup design but that's just me

[Prism]

To be clear, this requires misleading town in two separate ways: 1) All goon w/ a town VT cop 2) The kill blocking interplay

One is likely, both would be some trash.

[Prism]

I saw a bit but feel both would be truly sadistic, and there's a difference between WIFOM and zero scum counterplay.

[Prism]

There's just like, no reason to believe DGB is town here qualitatively, and the only reason for scum to leave it alive is that it's either me or it's all-goon. I am fine voting it and calling it a day.

[Prism]

You're all going to be just as lost and confused tomorrow, if not more.

I doubt it.

[Prism]

That it's likely all goon? That I am more likely scum? Voting you answers a question about the setup even if you flip town. Of no one else in the game is this true.

Who is scum, DGB? Please share.

[Prism]

You are literally just playing to stoke fear over your town flip instead of actually scumhunting. I am not persuaded us both flipping is a doomsday scenario. Please do something else.

[Prism]

Yeah, but I have a vote and if I'm wrong I'm wrong

You blatantly are interested only in saying "you'll all be wrong though" while you have yet to vote scum all gsme

[Prism]

ie. How about instead of just shaming us for being wrong/going "You're gonna regret it!" you like, actually propose and push alternative avenues

[Prism]

???? It literally will never get used given that it flips red, he can put anyone there. This is like reading tea leaves.

[Prism]

Maybe I'm just tired and irritable but Jesus Christ the last few pages are irritating

[Prism]

And it's literally a person quote of the wagon itself, not even a bork list

[Prism]

petapan quote, thanks phone

[Prism]

I'm saying that bork quoting an entire wagon and saying he'll look there probably does not mean much about one specific person in that group, especially when the "if" clause never gets activated to begin with.

[Prism]

UNVOTE:

I'm tired as fuck but I will at least look into ffery tomorrow instead of skimming through the 600s and calling it a day. I don't see a real need to review Pooky. I might review Vax for the all goon theory but I figure that's just going to be coinflip city either way.

[Prism]

Was busy today, will try to stop in tomorrow.

[Prism]

ffery can you explain a single thing about this game whatsoever that points to me?

[Prism]

I would probably outright no save over saving notscience, this is not WIFOM, please shoot him

[Prism]

Do you really think claiming doctor is better for me here as scum than just keeping the BP claim? One of these has an excuse for me being alive in ELo, the other has zero.

I will again mention a 5 second skim of any scum PT of mine will quickly confirm this is not my scumplay, which has a focus on being surgically clean (not weird soft/claim city) and a desire to be the first scum voted or get a clean sweep.

[Prism]

Right, but there needs to be a starting point or basis for it. As far as I can tell there's...no actual process here.

[Prism]

The Thaw has me doing similar extended theater with implosion if you want to stoke the flames of paranoia.Market Blitz has my more typical style on display.[/url]

notsci I just want to note I took the opposite stance on the Syr dance making ffery town.

Why does scum syry even get involved that fast in a scum ffery town Cabd world? Wouldn’t he be concerned of them both going down?

I'm inclined to think ffery is town but this is really bad reasoning given the interactions-Syr was very adamantly against/scared of Cabd joining in the conversation. If you're worried about Cabd, you want to put on exactly the show Syr/ffery did while hoping he doesn't get personally involved. This also gives an excuse of why both can avoid Cabd individually.

[Prism]

I should probably stop posting until I can reread ffery and verify the townread, no point in shooting things down realtime before then. Drove all day and brain no work good now.

[Prism]

Alright I have a few hours, time for me to DO SHIT and someone hold me accountable. Priority for reading is ffery->DGB->Vax.

[Prism]

I wasn't avoiding Cabd, though?

Here I'm referring to Syr's avoidance of Cabd, not yours, specifically when Cabd interjected into your/Syr's interactions. My point being that Syr's aversion to Cabd chipping in would, by itself, point to theater rather than clearing you.

Because nobody agrees with anything I think and two of my favorite people are scumreading me and I have this sinking feeling a third one is about to and I've no idea how I've managed this

may or may not be on my third glass of wine

I’m talking about this one

It’s EXPLICITLY to guilt her away from voting

iirc this is actually a post to petapan but I get what you're going for. I don't find this particular post indicative for ffery even if she is scum but I don't scumread the slot to begin with, so I mean...

[Prism]

I am up to post 53. I can't say I want to vote ffery.

No masonry for you, I'm afraid.

You not townreading me yet is why you've been gladiated.

[Prism]

I am up to post 90. This is quality scum theater and I am willing to give ffery a Tony.

You officially suck at reading me, Remilia. You can be scum with the other 4 or so people I'm now scumreading.

Who are these 5 scumreads?

[Prism]

...Why am I even reading this slot? Onto DGB

I already gladiated you. What more do you want?

Some semblance of effort at sorting me?

To the second, sounds kinda kinky, I'm in. Also more excellent cover for our masonry, so I appreciate it from a strategic point of view as well.

I think we should cover ourselves by inviting more masons to our party. Think we should let prism in?

Pedit: ? You think I haven't already been sorting you?

To the second, sounds kinda kinky, I'm in. Also more excellent cover for our masonry, so I appreciate it from a strategic point of view as well.

I think we should cover ourselves by inviting more masons to our party. Think we should let prism in?

Pedit: ? You think I haven't already been sorting you?

Your sorting me is usually a little louder iirc, our last 2 games notwithstanding.

[Prism]

DGB's mostly-avoidance with a small side of defense of the Syr slot Day 1 is pretty rough. Day 2 its interactions with bork get a bit better after the ben claim but before that are pretty nonexistent.

I'm pretty fine voting it. Reads are all over the place Day 2 on. Blatantly opportunist. Defeatist attitude at the start of Day 3 made no sense. All of today's play has just been doomsday prophecy.

I'll probably quote later if I feel like it but this slot is just so thin on content except when it comes to randomly voting town.

VOTE: DGB

[Prism]

I just...literally do not know why we would vote anyone else today. Who here is plausibly a better vote than DGB? Literally nobody.

Tossing aside night results even Vax has felt the heat from Syr at some point and Vax would have quickhammered his partner despite AFKing most of the game, which would be insanely bold.

[Prism]

thx we gonna need it

[Prism]

next up would probably be pooky if only because i haven't reread him but dude's still p. town

[Prism]

Look if this is wrong you can have my head on a pile and then go whoever you want, it's fine.

[Prism]

I will again deal with this if we have to tomorrow.

Ffery, are you thinking it's Vax/Pooky?

[Prism]

why

With everyone else claiming and outed, they were protecting that role? I dunno. not sci, your great, but anyone and thier mother could have seen cabd was going to die last night.

?

Cabd died N2. DGB was an outed investigative of an unknown nature at that time. Cabd was my second choice but I wasn't going to let a known PR die for free.

[Prism]

But prism, the way your role has been presented, as first a BP, then a doc? Yuck.

Why? Day 3 we had an outed investigative PR and a very high chance of a counterbalancing strongman. I want to make sure the PR lives to Day 4 and gets an extra result.

There's no point in claiming my real role there.

No strongman -> Shoot DGB, get a save
Strongman -> Saves use to potentially kill me later, shoots DGB, gets a save

Shooting me directly is the worst case scenario, which is what would have happened if I claimed regardless.

[Prism]

Like I have to somehow justify not stopping kills the next two nights and justify why scum isn't shooting me. None of this happens if I just keep the bulletproof claim.

I've been on both scum votes. Both of them went out of their way to shut me down and demoralize me Day 1 with the help of one sack of deadweight named petapan.

You've randomly AFK voted me and disappeared the entire game. Make a case on me or shut up already.

[Prism]

mb you should unvote dgb and let's talk this out some more

bad pooky, bad

bad bear

stop that

[Prism]

I am willing to policy Vax and vote DGB tomorrow if that's on the table.

[Prism]

I think it might be but isn't even worth worrying about, just in the sense that DGB should 100% be one of our three burns even if you might prefer someone else first.

I also want to believe that Isis doesn't let a setup through that actively deceives town in two different deceptive ways while giving scum 0 power, but Isis does have some weird ideas sometimes.

[Prism]

I am willing to policy Vax and vote DGB tomorrow if that's on the table.

Ahhh, so you know ill flip green eh?

Yes. Vote me if I am mafia.

[Prism]

Again, if I am scum, vote me.

[Prism]

You've randomly voted me without saying why literally the entire game.

Vote me and sell it.

[Prism]

The whole point of me not voting right now would also be lost by me saying who I'd vote for. I don't like jostling a wagon on me mid-formation. it interferes with what's in motion.

Respectfully, I have no clue what it is you're trying to do right now. You have 190+ pages of content and should not be playing the reactionary right now as town.

[Prism]

not reactionary. observational. Though I spelled out exactly where my head is at in the post Vax quoted to start this interaction.

Fair enough, might just be time for me to AFK until Day 5.

[Prism]

5 PRs is about typical from what I could tell iirc, that's why I backed off DGB after initially pushing them post Cabd flip. The issue here is that we've seen 0 scum power to counterbalance.

All goons is a hypothetical counterbalance but relies on actively misleading the town in two separate ways by design. One is that there are 2/3 blocking sources that don't work well together, the other is the vanilla cop.

More natural answer is me/DGB are lying or one of you/ffery is a scum PR.

[Prism]

I will be livid if the setup is 3 contradictory PRs, a red herring investigative, and all goons.

An important part of setup design is making it a puzzle for town to solve and to reward them for correctly getting info/flips. One red herring is fine, but a normal setup that is exclusively red herrings so that the setup designers can laugh at the town is not. I will 100% blame the design and feel 0 remorse about it, this hypothetical setup should not have passed.

[Prism]

everyone being town but dgb

but we must ask ourselves, "which of the non-dgb players is scum?"

[Prism]

Scum has no reason to rush to hammer you, they're safe regardless of which of ffery/Pooky it would be, and I'm the only player who isn't openly preparing for Day 6.

That doesn't make me town but watching both of them scrape the bottom of the barrel for 3 days straight to position for later instead of just voting the least town person in the game is absolutely not +town.

[Prism]

I'm also a big fan of the legendary scum must be on my 3 person wagon, where 1 is yourself and 1 is confirmed town.

[Prism]

lmfao

VOTE: Prism

Sure Vax.

[Prism]

I'm leaving that until DGB is at L-1. I mean it. I'm tired of Pooky/notscience/ffery doing absolutely nothing for days on end.

All 3 vote DGB and I hammer or I get eliminated today.

[Prism]

Actually I don't even have to hammer because benhalkum is voting DGB.

All 3 need to vote DGB or one needs to shut it and hammer me.

[Prism]

I guess there's no reason not to hammer except out of spite but you get the point.

[Prism]

Vaxkiller I am willing to bet you can't write a single sentence that explains why DGB town beyond "selfvoted and my gut"

[Prism]

Both scum pushed me. Both scum went out of their way to demoralize me this game. I spearheaded one of the votes and helped seal the other's fate even as I delayed the hammer.

Every single nightkilled townsperson has had me as a top townread.

Vax: Is it time to randomly vote/AFK vote Prism again?

[Prism]

VOTE: DGB

Cool, if it's wrong it's my fault and if it's right thank god it's over.

[Prism]

Sorry if you're town DGB I don't fuckin' know.

[Prism]

Personally I think it's been pretty staightforward for the most part, even at the cost of my sanity. I want out but maybe a town flip would make this game worth sinking more time into.

[Prism]

I have already lost my mind like 3 times this game but if this flips town I might actually lose it entirely

[Prism]

Agreed DGB. Scum hammer and I am deathly afraid of you.

[Prism]

I'm aware. I'll sort it tomorrow. You don't get a vote so I'm not very concerned about convincing you, in the same vein as you no longer have an interest in convincing me.

[Prism]

Fair enough.

[Prism]

In the event I'm scum, you're wrong on at least one front: I was never getting voted today. I selfvoted knowing that none of the three would dare hammer. Playing it faster would be a stylistic choice.

[Prism]

If it helps I've rolled my least favorite role in the game three times in a row now.

[Prism]

Yes, I claimed BP at first.

I will again remind you that you had the chance to end the game last night and failed to do so. Please do not blame the role.

[Prism]

I am incentivized to keep you alive as scum. This is true of no other player. This is the better angle to take.

By virtue of your ability to end the game at best and give a clear at worst last night, I am heavily incentivized to protect you.

[Prism]

You're the one claiming it isn't 3 goons, which I agree with. You figure out how to end the game given your night power, with the additional assumption that I am town. Disagreeing with that assumption is fine but yes, from my perspective, you had the ability to end the game with your very worthless role.

[Prism]

Right, well, it would bring me no greater relief than to join you soon.

[Prism]

Actually, it makes one of ffery/Pooky scum, but close. Only missing two options.

[Prism]

And my second choice died 3 nights in a row (and yes, petapan was my second choice despite the scum read)

Save the lecture on my night choices. Blame anyone except yourself. My failure to save and my failure to vote correctly are my own. You got two shots to root out the scum PR and are still claiming your role is worthless.

[Prism]

You weren't fullclaimed on Day 2. You were the only outed PR though Cabd had some weird WIFOM.

[Prism]

Actually, it makes one of ffery/Pooky scum, but close. Only missing two options.

You knew I was town, now you're looking at these two?

How scumvenient

It's what I've been saying since the second you outed your night result, actually.

[Prism]

No reason to panic. Purely stylistic. Purely stylistic as town too, really.

You figure out how to autowin N3 given our no goon assumption. You still think you got two clears and while simultaneously thinkimg your role was useless. Dunno what to tell you there.

I will fast night and am down to be voted. My interest in the scumteam is not sufficient.

[Prism]

Only two clears, one as compensation for not selecting into mechanical autowin. Tragic. I hope the next mod is kind enough to give you something with more agency and control of the game.

[Prism]

I'm glad you figured it out Vax. You were right all along Day 1.

[Prism]

lmao

[Prism]

FYI I am flipping a coin between notsci/Benhalkum. I am openly leaving Vaxkiller. You get the miselim on me, Vax dies, it's a win-win. You shoot in notsci/Benhalkum and it's potential autoloss if I save twice.

[Prism]

That's for the protection.

[Prism]

I don't know why I bother talking mechanics with DGB.

[Prism]

Right, well, I look forward to you being completely unapologetic later.

[Prism]

If someone is kind enough to give you an extra day, use it well and pick a scum PR.

[Prism]

Welcome to the Twilight Zone, Pooky.

[Prism]

idk man he's afk voted town all game and is quite confident about doing so again, but he did quickhammer the scum randomly once. that counts for something.

[Prism]

Other quotes that aged well.

in our hands

[Prism]

Whoops, ctrl+F strikes again

i turned my brain off at some point just praying for a bullet so i dont have to turn it back on again

You have to earn the bullet. Neither of us will get the luxury. Whether we like it or not, there is a good chance the game will be put in our hands at the most critical moments.

[Prism]

She earned the bullet. We did not. So.

[Prism]

It's me, I panicked at the idea of being wagoned so I put myself at E-1 and said to shut up and vote me.

[Prism]

She earned the bullet. We did not. So.

Like you actually believed that a 15 yr site veteran would let its scumpals down like thus as the last scum and their last hope.

I hate to break it to you but you already let down the townpals so.

[Prism]

As have I, to be clear, but more pointing out that "but I wouldn't fail!" when we both have actively failed, repeatedly, is not very convincing.

[Prism]

Yes. She's hammered. Ben, Vax, ffery, me are the votes.

[Prism]

It's hammered*

My apologies

[Prism]

What circle of hell are we in?

[Prism]

I was at that point Day 2.

[Prism]

Welcome Pooky. This is now the town-scum alliance, or maybe the town-town-scum alliance if ffery is last.

[Prism]

Yeah, you pushed for mine too.

I'm wrong, I messed up my night actions. You're wrong, you messed up your night actions. Welcome to mafia.

[Prism]

How? What magic night choice was I supposed to make?

You believe it is not 3 goons. It is possible, one might even say THE CASE, that I am town as well.

These things IN CONJUNCTION

mean that there is a scum PR who claimed VT, ie. ffery/Pooky

IF YOU SELECT THIS PERSON

What is the result?

[Prism]

I'm holding onto my prism townread with broken fingernails.

I mean you're right but literally why, AFAIK you haven't read a single scumgame of mine

[Prism]

So frustrated that you went on like a 3 page victory lap about how the game obviously ends when you vote me tomorrow.

[Prism]

I don't think I've blamed another person for a loss I've had in a single game I've played the last 5 years but if it's all goon I am 100% blaming the setup designers.

Giving scum 0 active counterplay and balancing a normal around intentionally misleading town in two/three different ways is completely unacceptable.

[Prism]

I mean it's less skepticism of metaing in the specific tells or habits sense but more that you're not really wondering about range at all. There's another game where I bussed 3 days in a row into 3 way elo with two town vengefuls

and selfvoted

[Prism]

Nope, in general I heavily oppose bussing and think it's the biggest way scumteams throw games. I linked The Thaw as an example of the aggressive-but-not-actually-bussing I do at times. I think there are ways to paint this game as fitting that scum style, even though by virtue of

not actually being scum

any single picture would not encapsulate my full play.

I'm not going to argue why I'd be scum here or go on a 10 minute selfindulgent spiel about what I'd hypothetically do here, more just curious as to what avenues your paranoia is taking you and why you're choosing to avoid doubting me.

[Prism]

NPOM I want to stop getting trolled by DGB pls give flip

[Prism]

The mod is posting elsewhere, is NPOM mafia?

[Prism]

I think my dead thread comments speak for themselves. I actively wanted scum to win, which is a first. Congratulations to the scumteam.

They're also right to be salty about the design, as are we. Shouldn't have passed.

[Prism]

I thought killing me was a mistake FWIW, but the results speak for themselves. You didn't have to really worry about me this game, and I think Vax being voted ever with my flip was criminal.

[Prism]

Also I just realized we started posting before the flip, whoops, I was tagging along w/ Pooky and unwnd without even thinking.

[Prism]

I am extremely pleased with the outcome, and this was, by far, the least enjoyable game of mafia I have played in 10 1/2 years.

[Prism]

And for bork, again I wouldn't feel bad. I'd classify you as one of the highlights this game.

Personally, I didn't give a shit about the "wine club" townreading each other too easily or being wrong, I gave a shit about treating a 13 player game like it's someone and their 3 friends playing a murder mystery with 9 NPCs.

[Prism]

I don't mind wine club being wrong. I mind wine club literally refusing to dialogue in good faith or remotely show interest in the opinion of outsiders.

[Prism]

Perhaps I'm being overly broad.

[Prism]

I think it's easy to look at this as bad because it resulted in a town loss, two with Tenet, but my point is that

even if ffery had been town

this game was abject misery and the dynamic still terrible.

[Prism]

Don't get me wrong. Despite how salty I am over how this played out, I was a huge part of the problem and why we lost. My reads were eh, my Day 2 was completely indefensible, the DGB vote was on me, losing my temper with Vax/bork/the Day 4 stallers etc. I played like garbage and deserved the loss.

[Prism]

Don't throw away your work this game to spite the mod, there's other avenues postgame. We need you here.

I don't know what you would consider a clique if refusing to dialogue with anyone outside of it in good faith for literally a calendar month does not fit the bill, but given that you spent all of the end of day sucking up to notscience and Cabd I cannot say I am surprised that you disagree.

[Prism]

My phone continues to random quote I see

[Prism]

The last comment was uncalled for on my end so I apologize.

Between this and the dead PT I have really beat the dead horse to dust. It is just easy for me to see a world where, had town won this game, the result would be that wine club+NPCs would have been validated as the right way to play the game.

Wine club wasn't the only reason we lost and doesn't deserve to be scapegoated (I know Skitter isn't scapegoating it), but it's not wrong

just because we lost

, it was an awful way to play even if it had yielded a win

[Prism]

Thanks for modding NPOM. I enjoyed the flavor and we could be a challenging player list at times.

Any chance we could get PTs released?

[Prism]

I'm still tilted over my second choice dying all 3 nights lmfao

[Prism]

I'm still pretty annoyed I had to out as not BP. Would you have ever shot me in a world where I didn't?

The downside is you were my roleswap backup if I had a save, as you were the person I felt could take a hint, so that was destined to go nowhere.

[Prism]

I got so much mileage out of that accidental watcher soft shitpost

[Prism]

I saw 5521 coming from a mile away. The only reason I even considered two goons was that I saw you were the primary reviewer, and instead I chose to place my hope that Isis would object.

5524 is on the dot. It doesn't matter that the setup was balanced: It did so by being swingy as hell, by balancing around deliberately misleading town in multiple ways and punishing them for correctly utilizing their night actions, and giving scum no active mechanical counterplay. Red herrings are inherently bad design but one is acceptable. The entire setup being comprised of them is not.

I don't want to discuss this further.

[Prism]

You each were the #2 and #3 highlights of this game for me, without being made to choose which is which, so thanks.

#1 will always be me and petapan engaging in another instant classic

It is, however, worth noting that my/petapan's history of dancing is very different from yours and Cabd.

90% of the time one steps on a foot, the other says to watch where you're stepping you clumsy motherfucker, the first replies "Who you callin' clumsy?" and before you know we're whacking each other with our heels and both of our dresses are torn and we never liked the other anyway and we both flip town

Someone had to call Regfan to pick us up, us forming mirror images as we grimaced out the windows of the backseat all the way home. We're both equally stupid, and there's no one I'd rather slapfight with for the rest of my life, in sickness and in health.

[Prism]

lol

[Prism]

"scumhunting dynamo" is bold given my atrocious town w/l record and penchant for singlehandedly leading town into 3+ miselims

[Prism]

I think you were right to fear me/peta townlocking each other though. After these two posts it was virtually guaranteed.

For peta, I'm going to risk it.

You're either deepwolfing or just town. It's going to take more time to correct me if I'm wrong on you. Carry me in the meantime. My station as an ineffectual, unpersuasive but townread voter is my dream scenario as scum. It gives me near infinite freedom, and the wrong flips in the meantime give me more credibility as the number of eliminations needed to win gets closer. Yet I desperately want to change it. I also have no interest in exploiting your meltdown last night-it's NAI at worst and town at best.

If you disagree, that's fine, you don't have to get into it.

i'm not sure i actually have a response to that. i think i'm well outside my range but there's one person in the world who knows that. we can hopefully just figure this thing out before we have to murder each other

Peta knows my position Day 1 was what I lay awake at night dreaming of as scum, and his "not sure I have a response" over a more conclusive "that's bullshit" was a big townping.

[Prism]

Add 1-shot strongman. The game is fixed. Incredible. You're welcome.

[Prism]

I'm being a bit facetious but 1-shot strongman for sure makes the setup more engaging and mechanically rewarding for both sides to play. Scum are given some a very restricted-use counter that requires careful, selective use. The vanilla cop now has something to hunt for.

For implosion, I don't really want to speculate as to balance, I neither believe the setup was actually balanced nor think it would be redeemed by virtue of being balanced. My issue was that the setup included BOTH of the conflicting PRs and the red herring Vanilla Cop/no scum power. One was fine, both was absolutely not. This is what I meant when I said that the setup was Town v. Mod-

any idea of balance relied on town making bad setup speculation. Bad setup speculation was not incidental but was central to the setup's balance and functionality.

This is nonsense, and the role of the game designer is not to "outsmart" the town. The game was balanced around misleading town, and gave scum virtually no mechanical agency. I found the conflicting PRs an interesting concept, and didn't take issue with it from a design standpoint. I was LIVID when I discovered that the vanilla cop was a herring and that scum were given no counterbalancing power.

What Cabd said about agency is important. Incidentally, scum does have one more "mechanical" option in the game: CCing a PR to compensate for their lack of power. Ironically, this is the one thing that turns the red herring vanilla cop into something useful.

Town had to deal with the setup intentionally misleading/confusing town in two different ways. Scum had to deal with having no night agency, and in fact the only remaining mechanical counterplay would have actually been punished via the setup.

[Prism]

It looks like you understand it's not just a question of balance, but it's also not just a question of "fun". The setup's design was to mislead town in two separate ways while giving scum no counterbalancing power of their own. This is not OK, and the game designers should not be putting all of their effort into making town feel stupid for even trying to utilize mechanics.