Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[Lawrencelot]

Chess first. The more we mislynch, the less we are at an advantage against the mafia in the chess game. We have more people now, which should result in better play. We do have to remember though that we might have to start lynching a long time before the chess game is starting to look bad for us, as we still have to make moves if we lynch. But the thing is: I don't expect the chess game to look bad for us, because a consensus of more players usually gives better results than one of few players. Unless the mafia are some extremely good chess players and town sucks, we shouldn't worry about this.

Move: e4

. It's just the best move and that's it.

[Lawrencelot]

Aaah, something else happened than E5! I'm not sure I ever saw this opening, but it looks like it's best to get our bishop out, or our queen.

move Bc4

[Lawrencelot]

Nf3 is way worse. It won't help us against the black queen, and it removes the possibilities for our own Queen. I also don't see how playing Nc3 helps us.

[Lawrencelot]

lol, I didn't see that there was a second page. Sorry to parrot indigo.

I definitely think we should

not

move Bc4... it's a super-weak move.

Lawrencelot: in chess, the point of the early going is generally to control the middle four squares of the board... a Bc4 doesn't really help us do that without something to support us. We're sticking that bishop out there without any support, and moreover impeding our own ability to develop queen side.

In response to your concerns about 2. ... Qa5, I think that black would be essentially wasting a move to do that. 3. c3 would make that a wasted move. And besides, what does black do after that?

Thanks, I got it now. As such, I think Nc3 is our best option, but if someone can convince me otherwise, just try.

unmove; move: Nc3

[Lawrencelot]

Time to get our queen out? Or a bishop or another horse? I'd say, get our queen out before the horse, or get our right bishop out before moving the D2 pawn.

[Lawrencelot]

I changed my mind, I think we should not let our queen get out, to prevent the black knight from performing a double attack on tower and king. Now Nf3 looks good to me. But can someone explain to me how f4 or g3 is useful?

move: Nf3

[Lawrencelot]

I don't see black's knight going Rambo all by it's lonesome in the next move or two. I still don't fully understand g3, I won't ask.

Move f4

I didn't either, but I think CS wants to do it because it will protect a pawn on f4. But then why wouldn't we perform f4 first...

I'm willing to change to f4, it's like Goatrevolt says: if we want to do both f4 and Nf3, f4 should come first.

[Lawrencelot]

Unmove; Move: f4

[Lawrencelot]

Move Nf3

[Lawrencelot]

I like Qe2, followed up by Nd5. We keep the advantage whatever black does.

Move: Qe2.

I'm also willing to move our bishop, but there's no need to do that right now if we can attack the king.

[Lawrencelot]

I thought it would be good to attack with our knight after moving Qe2, but they still have 2 other pieces to defend their e7 spot, so never mind.

Unmove; move Bc4

[Lawrencelot]

Willing to change back to Qe2. Heck, I'll do it now.

unmove, move: Qe2

[Lawrencelot]

Move: Nd5

[Lawrencelot]

move: Nxb4

[Lawrencelot]

Move: d4

. I don't get h4. d4 puts a pawn in the center, protected, and makes us able to move our bishop, after which we can rook on the left side.

[Lawrencelot]

move: d4

vote: Gorrad

Lynching someone let's scum make a nightkill. Don't vote.

[Lawrencelot]

Move: Ng5

. Maybe too risky, but I don't feel like playing Nd2 and blocking the bishop again. For the record, this is to prevent black from playing Ne4 and unpinning.

[Lawrencelot]

I still think Ng5 is best, although admittedly I did not think about castling. But if they castle there's a good follow-up. Here's what Ng5 does, I probably miss some moves black could do:

*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Ng5 Ne4*/chess tag removed*
We hit their knight, and if they hit our knight back we hit the pawn and there's still a pin.

*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Ng5 O-O*/chess tag removed*
We can play Qc4+ here, and our bishop is free to move and we can attack whatever we want, like the f5 pawn or their queen/rook with our horse. Or set up an attack on h7.

Wait, they can just move h6 as well. Hm, anyone got a solution to that?

[Lawrencelot]

Goat, can you explain why g6 is bad for black (after Qb5)? I see it only help their pawn structure, or I'm missing something.

[Lawrencelot]

Unmove, move: Qb5

Although what Pesco says is true, I've got a good followup for that last one. I don't think sharing it helps black, so:

*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qb5, g6
11. Bd2, a6
12. Qe5 d6
13. Qe3 Ng4
14. Qb3 */chess tag removed*
Then black does something, and we might play Bb4 or move the other bishop.

[Lawrencelot]

I'm still here. I'm not convinced that I should change my vote, yet.

[Lawrencelot]

What is a fianchetto? Qc4 looks good to me after Indigo's post, I'll refrain from voting so The CS can explain his move (sorry if you already did, but I need to hear why it's better than Qc4).

[Lawrencelot]

So what's the follow-up of Qe5, d6? I don't see the purpose, besides trying to get a pawn.

Unmove

if I didn't already

[Lawrencelot]

12. Qxb4 results in losing our queen to the bishop

[Lawrencelot]

I see. But why shouldn't we move Qc4 after your latest move sequence? I don't see how that situation is good for black, we gain a pawn with a very small cost.

[Lawrencelot]

I am willing to do either Qc4 or Qe5. I don't see g3 accomplishing anything.

[Lawrencelot]

We are not severely underdeveloped. We got a queen and a horse there, black only got a horse, and our bishops attack way more spaces than black's. And if we move the queen to Qe5 our right bishop has a whole lot of range, while moving her to Qc4 keeps her protected by our right bishop. If you want the right bishop to develop, why waste two moves to let it attack a pawn and 1 space instead of doing one move that keeps pressure on black and also allows the bishop to move freely?

Move: Qe5

. As I said, I'm also willing to do Qc4. Btw, with so many people on the same side, it's hard to screw something up, so playing agressively is not a bad strategy.

[Lawrencelot]

Why not just take the pawn after Qe5?

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qe5 O-O
11. Qxf5
*/chess tag removed*

After black's next move here, we'll most likely have to retreat with our queen, but that's no disaster as we're a pawn ahead.

Bd2, I don't know. It attacks a protected pawn, but it does allow us to castle.

[Lawrencelot]

Unmove, move qc4

. As I said, I've been willing to do this one, but I don't know which move is optimal.

[Lawrencelot]

Hm, I didn't think about this move for black, and I also forgot what we were doing. But I don't like d5. What if we do something else, and respond to b5/d5 by moving our queen to b3, and try to keep preventing black from castling? I don't know what this 'something else' would be though.

[Lawrencelot]

Hm, I didn't think about this move for black, and I also forgot what we were doing. But I don't like d5. What if we do something else, and respond to b5/d5 by moving our queen to b3, and try to keep preventing black from castling? I don't know what this 'something else' would be though.

Allowing black to move d5 essentially defeats the purpose of moving Qc4.

Yeah I was looking for preventing d5 in a different way (and then flee after the b5) but I don't think there is.

Move d5

[Lawrencelot]

Unmove

. I'm considering moving to b3 already. What would black do if we move our queen to b3? Develop something? They still can't castle then. And after that we could move our pawn or bishop to c4? Probably not a good plan, but someone please point out why. I'm trying to gain an advantage by hitting a pawn after black castles, or attacking the king from a4 with the queen before black castles.

[Lawrencelot]

a4

I think that will lead to trading, or black only developing further. But let's consider every option anyway.

[Lawrencelot]

EBWOP: that should be Qa4

[Lawrencelot]

Problem is, we can't take the pawn 1 or 2 moves after Bd3 if black responds with d5. It applies pressure, but not much I think.

[Lawrencelot]

If I'm right, no one commented on my latest post. 11. Qb3 d5 12. Qa4

How about that one?

[Lawrencelot]

Ok that's no option then.

Move: d5

for now.

[Lawrencelot]

If I'm correct, post 404 is the latest official one: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 43#1391043

[Lawrencelot]

What about moving the a or c pawn to attack the b4 pawn? If we do that with the a pawn, it could lead to getting our rook into play, though there's not much he can do after that and it prevents us from castling queenside.

[Lawrencelot]

But if we do something else than Qb3, they will also probably move d5, and we can do Qb3 after that. Like someone (veerus?) said, our Queen is not under attack right now.

[Lawrencelot]

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 O-O*/chess tag removed*
You just let his King out of the center.

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 O-O
12. d6*/chess tag removed*

[Lawrencelot]

Ditto d6 as well for me. d5 is just a no-brainer.

Help out a foreigner here: does that mean you think d5 is obviously the best move, or that only noobs would play d5 (and thus it's a bad move)?

[Lawrencelot]

I totally lost it this game. I'll post tomorrow and vote for the biggest move bandwagon if it doesn't seem ridiculous to me.

[Lawrencelot]

Why weren't we doing Bd3 again?

[Lawrencelot]

If Bd2 and Be2 are the main options, I'll

Move: Be2

.

[Lawrencelot]

Move: Qb3

[Lawrencelot]

Qb3 still prevents black from castling. Not that they'd castle the next move anyway, but if they want to castle again they need to move the d pawn, in which case we might be able to play Qa4. We also give our right bishop more mobility after Qb3. Qd3 just gets stopped by g6, and if they wouldn't play that they could castle, and it chokes our own right bishop.

[Lawrencelot]

I am willing to give up my vote.

[Lawrencelot]

Qb3 still prevents black from castling. Not that they'd castle the next move anyway, but if they want to castle again they need to move the d pawn, in which case we might be able to play Qa4. We also give our right bishop more mobility after Qb3. Qd3 just gets stopped by g6, and if they wouldn't play that they could castle, and it chokes our own right bishop.

Did anyone yet respond to this? Does g6 not ruin Gd3? (yes or no will suffice)

[Lawrencelot]

no.. because attacking that pawn is a secondary objective.. the primary objective is to move the queen out of the way into a position where it would be useful.. and technically g6 ruins the pawn structure on the kingside if black castles there

Makes sense, but if g6 indeed ruins their pawn structure (which I'm not sure about but whatever), why not force them to play g6 by playing Qb3?

[Lawrencelot]

Oh yeah, my logic failed there.

Unmove; move Qd3

[Lawrencelot]

I don't see anything wrong with Qfx5 d5, if they even do play d5.

[Lawrencelot]

Move: Qxf5

[Lawrencelot]

Why would mafia agree to such a thing?

And

move: Qd3

[Lawrencelot]

Fos: veerus

I know for a fact that sirdanilot is way worse at chess than me, and do you see me contribute much? Besides the chess play, sirdanilot has contributed a lot, maybe the most of all people. I also did not expect this level of chess players so I kinda stayed back and supported the suggested moves that I think were the best. That being said, I think we should just play chess instead of voting. Everyone who votes someone is a risk for the town. We have enough time to start playing mafia if the situation becomes hopeless, it's not like a hopeless situation ends a chessgame in 2 turns.

I don't like moving our Queen away. Her pressure on the H7 spot should stay, and I don't think we should worry about our left bishop, a trade isn't disastrous. I'm all for an aggressive move like Ne5, but g3 looks good as well.

[Lawrencelot]

Move: g3

[Lawrencelot]

I prefer Qb3. It puts pressure on several pawns.

Plus it also gives us the option to play Bf3 which develops the white squared bishop while prompting another chance at an exchange.

I don't get this.

[Lawrencelot]

Qb3 attacks the b4 and d5 pawn. Sure they're protected, but that means the defenders of those pawns can't move. I don't see what Qe3 should accomplish, it's not like that knight is gonna panic and say 'oh if I move away that Queen can attack our bishop, I'll guess I'll stay here'

[Lawrencelot]

Move: Qb3

[Lawrencelot]

Move: Qb3

[Lawrencelot]

No I voted like 10 times, because people keep saying 'vote for a move', which I agree with entirely.

[Lawrencelot]

Only 1 option

move: Kxd2

[Lawrencelot]

What the... why didn't I notice that other move.

Unmove

Maybe the other one is better, then we keep the option to rook. But I don't know if rooking gives us a big advantage.

[Lawrencelot]

Just posting to say I agree that using the king is better, but I won't vote yet because this can be discussed a bit more.

[Lawrencelot]

I agree with AA that we should aim for removing the pin. I think Be2 is our best option.

[Lawrencelot]

Move: Be2

[Lawrencelot]

Same here.

Unmove, Move Re1

[Lawrencelot]

How does that rule change benefit anyone but scum? That includes the mod and the game itself. It won't make the game run quicker. I also disagree that this change is needed. The only rule change I would agree to is something like a chess clock system. That is something that would make things go faster while still keep it interesting, but it should also not benefit scum more than town.

I'm not lynching anyone. I'd sooner replace out for the first time in my mafia scum career.

(Max your post is scummy as hell btw.)

[Lawrencelot]

@Max: whether this game is really mafia or not doesn't matter, it started and we can't change it while it is on-going.

@veerus: I'm not going to defend myself as I think we should just continue our chess game, not start lynching.

On to the chess game. I prefer to let our queen stay where she is, she is attacking two pawns which makes it harder for black to develop his pieces. I think for me the options are Bg2 and Re3. I don't know which one I like more.

@Goatrevolt: Rc8 isn't a big threat, we can move our c pawn ahead if that happens, or am I missing something? Not that it's a nice position for white.

[Lawrencelot]

Move: Bg2

g5 doesn't look good

[Lawrencelot]

Let's just use tighter deadlines.

[Lawrencelot]

Alright

[Lawrencelot]

unmove, move: Qe3

even though I don't like moving our queen

[Lawrencelot]

What about Ne5

[Lawrencelot]

Oh yeah we're still pinned. I really think we need to fix that first.

Move: Rg1

[Lawrencelot]

Unmove

[Lawrencelot]

I don't feel like analyzing (anymore), more than 2 people have voted for this move so

move: Bd3

[Lawrencelot]

move gxf4

. I want our pawn back.

[Lawrencelot]

Can anyone provide a reason for me to read the thread?

Not unless/until we decide to start lynching people.

[Lawrencelot]

move Qe2

[Lawrencelot]

fxg4 was like mate in four, white wins.

You guys are idiots.

How?

[Lawrencelot]

Our knight is in a good position. g4 looks good to me.

[Lawrencelot]

due to a family emergency I wil have to request at least temporary replacement out of my games.

This applies to me as well.