Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[Pesco47]

I'm in for playing e4 as well (I'll put it into proper vote notation a bit later).

With so many of us putting moves for white, we can't afford to play weak moves or any overly long term traps. Someone is not going understand a move, ask for explanation and the ploy is pretty much revealed to black. We have to assume black will always play the best move possible.

Going for the chess win should keep the game easygoing and fun for everyone.

[Pesco47]

Suggesting silly moves the new scum tell for this game?

c5 isn't exactly a great move for the bN. I would play

move Nc3

instead

[Pesco47]

@ Mod: If the exact same board position is reached 3 times in a game, are we going to get a forced draw?

[Pesco47]

Suggesting silly moves the new scum tell for this game?

c5 isn't exactly a great move for the bN. I would play

move Nc3

instead

It's the Alapin Variation. I played against that in one of my earlier games on the site. However, I can't help but seeing that you're trying to make it look as if you do not know about it when it seems to me that you do. Just a hunch.

IGMEOY: Pesco47

I'm not sure what you're on about here. All I can say is that I don't know my openings. I play my pieces as the game flows. Nc3 is what I would play in a 1-on-1 tournament game.

If we wanted to counter Qa5, a3 would be a better move. But, it is a play that is beyond me. I know it's an important move of some sort, but not how to follow it up. Nc3 can also counter Qa5, but it would be effective only a few more moves down the line.

I don't have a problem with playing Nf3, probably just that the move is so boring and doesn't pressure the queen's side center.

It's fine and all to be aggressive, but for this game, I feel trading of pieces will not work out in our favour as we near endgame.

[Pesco47]

Nc3 is not immediately useful, it can be a threat a few moves down the line if you can plan ahead. It develops the knight on the side where black is coming from if they play Qa5. The knight also prevents Qa5 from pinning our d-pawn.

If black is really noob enough to be playing Qa5 on their 2nd move -
after we play Nc3: we can bring another piece out to the fight with Nf3, Bd3 to gain board control. The queen is no threat to our knight.

after we play Nf3: Nc3 for piece development, bringing the bishop out after Nf3 will likely result us in having to move the bishop again too soon and lose tempo.

after we play Bc4: Nf3 will be a priority to pressure the center. It is also likely that we'll be moving the bishop when black follows Qa5 with b5. Nc3 prevents the bishop from getting attacked when it moves to Bc4.

After all this bashing at black playing Qa5, they'll probably not play it. Other candidate moves that will come -
e5: the best counter to this would be Nf3 from us. We'll be a move ahead.

d5: we win a pawn if Bc4 or Nc3 was played, the resulting trade isn't too good for our position though.

[Pesco47]

I'm gonna have to

FoS:Pesco47

as well, for saying that c5 is a "silly move" and then providing one of the more common responses to it. I don't think that's a clear scum move... anyone could have thought up Nc3, especially someone who likes knight play... but at this point in the game I want to be as unambiguous as possible about my thoughts.

Where did I call c5 a silly move? When I replied and called a move silly, it was in response to Bc4. Besides, it was black that made c5, if you think it was a silly move, then all the better for white.

[Pesco47]

Piece advantage is meaningless if it's anything less than a knight or bishop. How many points is Bc4 going to net us? If your plan involves taking a rook, forget it. We'll have virtually no board position to follow up with.

Stronger board control will limit the good moves black can make. I said earlier that I would not favour trades, the only time this will be accepted, is when we gain board advantage as a result.

[Pesco47]

@ Mod: Lawrencelot is moving Nc3 btw

[Pesco47]

Piece advantage is meaningless if it's anything less than a knight or bishop.

No, that's just wrong. Winning as little as a Pawn in the early game can lead to a game win.

Winning pawns isn't worth the loss in board control in the opening game.

I said earlier that I would not favour trades, the only time this will be accepted, is when we gain board advantage as a result.

I think that's the wrong mentality to take. With more pieces on the board, there are more oppportunities for traps and sneaky play, which directly favours black. If we simplify the board position, the extra heads gain the advantage.

No matter what the number of pieces on the board, extra heads will still be better than however many players that are thinking for black. The equal tools available to us in the chessboard means that any board-related advantage black has, we also have. If there's a disadvantage for us, they'll also suffer from it.

[Pesco47]

I hope you realise how much more difficult it is to play a pawn endgame than a knight or bishop endgame.

And because black has their privacy, they can and will exploit any weakness in board position to turn the game un-winnable for us. White calls the shots with board dominance.

Your comment about taking pawns at a loss of board control tells me that you'd take a piece because it looks like it's for free. That's the kind of mentality that will lose us the chess game.

FoS SensFan

[Pesco47]

We can trade off, but remember that we are trading pieces AND position. One side will always come off worse, I don't intend to let that happen to white.

[Pesco47]

Phone browser post, so I can't really see the board.

I'm thinking gN or cB makes a move. I'll decide on a position when I can see the board.

[Pesco47]

I'm feeling drawn to playing f4, but I can't explain to myself why yet. g3 will need some explaining from the person that suggested it.

Nf3 is good standard play. Rather boring, but may be our best move.

[Pesco47]

I don't see black's knight going Rambo all by it's lonesome in the next move or two. I still don't fully understand g3, I won't ask.

Move f4

[Pesco47]

FoS Sirdanilot

for laundering on M-1

[Pesco47]

Move Nf3

[Pesco47]

Move exf5

Explain the vote? Something to do with one of the moves he suggested?

[Pesco47]

Move Qe2+
Vote Gorrad

Qe2 pins whatever black moves into the way when we follow up with Nd5. Black taking the pawn in response was fairly predictable, that should give us an indication of who is scum by the level of their moves.

I find Gorrad's lack of reason for voting to be scummy, I asked why you were voting yesterday. Now this 'We can't win without our queen' line strikes me as a move to undermine our play. The only people that can't win a game of chess without the queen are newbs.

A point I realised yesterday too, scum would speedmove to prevent a lynch. If we going to attempt a lynch, I think we need to unmove if a serious case starts forming.

[Pesco47]

EBWOP: The best thing about Qe2+ is that black can't do anything to counter our next move.

[Pesco47]

A bishop pin is too slow. The open column gives initiative to whoever calls check first. If black does, we'll be a move behind because we spend a move running instead of developing. I intend to follow with Nd5 next turn for more attacking power. Depending on what their response to that is, we bring the fN into the attack too or bring out the cB to open up 0-0-0.

[Pesco47]

In the event of black answering Qe2+ with Qe7, a trade on our side of the board is far more favourable.

Bb5 is a horrible move. The knight is protected by 2 pawns, and a response of a6 costs us a move. That's also assuming black doesn't one-up us by calling check too.

[Pesco47]

Lulz. I thought someone suggested Bb5. Now we all have 1 less move to consider.

[Pesco47]

I did a bit of thinking too. Bc4 I'll agree to with majority consensus. It's got more depth than Qe2+, though I still wouldn't want to castle to a side with openings. I'll need to see it on a physical board to plan out.

Bd3 however, is going to get owned by Nb4. The results there should be obvious.

[Pesco47]

I'll lay out all the candidate move scenarios when I get in front of a PC. The arguments against Qe2+ need to be addressed in a more comprehensive light.

[Pesco47]

SensFan has covered most of black's options. Their best defence to Qe2+ is Be7. Nd5 followup threatens a fork and a pin. It also stops Nf6 and the d-pawn from taking the center.

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5
*/chess tag removed*

From there, if black plays
7...Nd4 or b4: our knight trades and we push the d-pawn at maximum move length.

7...b6: we play d3, opening the bishop.

7...Qa5: respond with c4, this move requires a bit of reading ahead. I assume we are good enough to see what it does.

7...d6: This gives us time to free up the cB which I would do via b3.

Black has no choice bu to let us play whatever move we want after Qe2+. I figured Nd5 does the most and we have answers to all their best moves after that too.

[Pesco47]

Scum aren't as good as we thought they were. They'll make blunders too.

[Pesco47]

Another possible move 7...Nf6:
We take the knight 8. Nxf6+, they'll be forced to gxf6.

[Pesco47]

Anybody got some suggestions as to why we shouldn't go Qe2+? No objections then let's move.

[Pesco47]

Moving the bishop so you can castle is nice and all, but have you got a followup to screw black over with?

[Pesco47]

Where do you expect black to move if we choose to play defensive and castle? How are we going to stop them from moving there?

[Pesco47]

Where do you expect black to move if we choose to play defensive and castle? How are we going to stop them from moving there?

I'm not answering that yet for what should be obvious reasons.

You should be able to tell us where black is going to move after your preferred move is played. Only scum would be at a loss in revealing this info. That's about as scummy as you can get in this game, but be happy that lynching you will only cause white to lose out on good players.

I get the sense that we should prefer black plays 6. ... Qe7, but I am content seeing that we have options for 6. ... Be7 as well.

Gorrad as scum wouldn't want to play Qe7 since he doesn't like losing his queen. Black playing defensively would play Be7, if they want to be aggressive, then it's Qe7. Nd5 is still the followup answer. We force them to trade on our side of the board or lose their queen for a knight in that case.

[Pesco47]

No. I don't want to give them ideas.

You don't want to give white ideas either with that kind of response.

[Pesco47]

Move Nd5

Just as planned.

[Pesco47]

Move Nxb4

[Pesco47]

Move d4

What happened to the plan of developing our pieces?

[Pesco47]

Have we already forgotten to ignore move suggestions from scummy players?

[Pesco47]

Gorrad has been most scummy in the last few moves, since it doesn't benefit the chess game to lynch, we'll just have to ignore him.

[Pesco47]

I haven't thought about Nd4. I'll check it out a little later.

[Pesco47]

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4
*/chess tag removed*

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. Nd4
*/chess tag removed*

Here's the 2 candidate moves. I'm actually rather underwhelmed by the original d4. It does stuff, but doesn't force black to play on our terms. Nd4 gives black a even more slack since we still can't move our king too well in the moves following and leaves us open to a check from h4 (once the pin is removed).

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. b3
*/chess tag removed*

I took a look at b3, and the potential there is quite attractive. It opens up our bishop which we've been aching to free up. The bishop will be attacking from it's first move out too. Locking the pawns on the b-file will close the game stage to the center, where we are holding dominance.

Umove, Move b3

[Pesco47]

Forget b3 for now. d4 was hammered a while ago.

[Pesco47]

Qc4 and Ng5 are good moves, but not the one to play right now.

[Pesco47]

Did a read over the suggestions

Ng5: Gets countered by h6. We play this move when black can't afford to counter it.

Qc4: A good attacking move, but countered by d5 (and this is backed by the knight). Also only playable when they can't respond.

Qb5: g6 shuts down the pawn take plan. Gets countered by a6 in the following move.

g3: Yes it's defensive, but gives us more moving space. I have this down as possibly the best move for the turn.

b3: Lost a lot of it's power from the last turn, but still a decent move IMO.

Move g3

Edit for goat's post: the d-pawn is a source of many troubles.

[Pesco47]

And then

*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qb5, g6
11. Bd2, a6
12. Qe5 d6*/chess tag removed*

What have we achieved there?

[Pesco47]

Qe3 is still open to threat from the knight.

[Pesco47]

g4 and d5

[Pesco47]

From move 10-14 the queen moves 4 times while they move 4 different pieces. Talk about bad play...

[Pesco47]

After Qb5+, they go Qd7. We've still accomplished nothing. White is sitting with too many reactionary moves. We have answers to problems that don't exist yet. Take this time to play development moves.

[Pesco47]

You forget that in the process of them making all those moves, they've gotten all their pieces out into the open.

[Pesco47]

Sure they only move 3 pawns, but the a and h ones curb offensives from being set up in their respective sides. The d pawn opens their bishop and give queen move options.

[Pesco47]

Not voting (8)

@Mod: We got a voteless?

[Pesco47]

Looking at the board now, Ne4 seems pretty certain to happen no matter where we move. The only difference is when the move will be played. Thinking abut that, Nh4 comes to my mind as a way to shake things up. Thoughts?

[Pesco47]

I'm here too. It would have been boring to go and post every single available move and analyse it.

[Pesco47]

Fine let's go Qc4. We need to move anyway.

Unmove, Move Qc4

[Pesco47]

Maybe with two grandmasters material advantage makes all of the difference... but among us mortals I think we should consider other aspects of the game.

Your play should not be different in the slightest whether your opponent is a Grand Master or has only learned how to move the pieces.

But don't forget that we're just common folk too.

[Pesco47]

It's quite a null-tell saying that someone is scum for a move that looks bad in retrospect. At the time of the move, it looked good and solid. In reference to the current board position, any move could have been good since it leads to a whole different situation.

[Pesco47]

When d6 happens, black's cB will be protecting the 'free pawn'. Pay attention.

[Pesco47]

Back onto the move at hand please.

How I'm seeing the Qe5 sequence:

10. Qe5 d6
11. Qb5+ Bd7

From here taking b7 results in black getting the advantage of development in the trades.

If we go

12. Qxb4 Nd5

Move 13 will be irrelevant since black can now call check from both sides of the board. g3 is by far the safest move we can play.

Unmove, Move g3

[Pesco47]

The d6 pawn is in the way

[Pesco47]

Nice backtracking after screaming 'Every move other than Qe5 wll lose us the game!'.

[Pesco47]

A slight problem with that, black is not 'forced' to play Qd7 at all.

[Pesco47]

Moving the king is still a valid possibility, probably to f7.

[Pesco47]

I don't care whether or not they can castle either. I do care that we don't have a plan to force them into moves we want played.

[Pesco47]

You keep saying we need to castle and protect the king, and yet you refuse to play a defensive move. If there is anything genuinely wrong with a move in any way, just saying that it's bad without telling why makes you very obvscum.

[Pesco47]

*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6*/chess tag removed*

Reposting the board so we can see things in perspective.

Requesting the replacement mod make their presence known and do a vote/move count. And send some prods.

[Pesco47]

Case 1: Qc4
*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 d5
11. Qb5 Nd7
*/chess tag removed*

I don't see it ending well for us down this route. The queen gets trapped into permanently running while they get plenty of attacks in.

Case 2: Qe5
*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qe5 o-o
11. Bc4 d5
12. Bb3 Ng4
*/chess tag removed*

This looks like a fine position to ask 'Would you like to resign?' That d5 is a brilliant move and we get screwed over this badly.

Alternative : Bd2
*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Bd2
*/chess tag removed*

How about this one?

[Pesco47]

I would be wary in that situation, Lawrence. If black moved their queen to a5 and managed to threaten e2, we'd lose.

If black went 11. ... Qa5, WE SCORE! They are not that stupid

[Pesco47]

Refusing the prod.

[Pesco47]

Where's the mod to end the day?

Votecount!

Moves

Qc4 (3) - Indigo Heron, sirdanilot,veerus

g3 (2) - Gorrad, The Central Scrutinizer

Qe5(2)-Goatrevolt,Lawrencelot
Qb5 (1) - SensFan

g3(1)-Pesco47

Only noticed this a moment ago, too late to do anything about it now.

[Pesco47]

Semi-forced for who? It's no good if it's white being forced.

[Pesco47]

Move d5

[Pesco47]

2. A better option is

Bd2

. It doesn't restrict our queen, develops the other bishop, threatens the b4 pawn, and still allows us to castle, just via queenside. Castling is also going to be more effective, since castling to the kingside would involve also having a bishop at e2, effectively keeping the rooks from getting into the game for a while.

Be2 you mean.

[Pesco47]

Fail reading on my part too, so nevermind.

[Pesco47]

@ mod: Move count?

[Pesco47]

I don't like castling kingside with our pawn structure and while they still have both bishops.

[Pesco47]

Are they forced to go d5?

[Pesco47]

It is a fundamental rule of chess that the king is safer when it's castled and not when it's in the middle of the board.

You know how back-rank checkmates happen? When you over-prioritise castling and don't pay attention to the rest of the board. Right now castling sucks no matter which side we do it on, but I'd take queen side if we had to.

[Pesco47]

Unmove

for now. It's been a while since I've seen the real board too.

[Pesco47]

Those pawn advances are sub-par moves.

Pre-emp notice to all: I am losing interest in this game and it is my top candidate to bail if Natirasha's MSG gets started soon. I won't need to drop if AitH finishes before that happens.

[Pesco47]

As I said, I'm hoping for AitH to end first. I hadn't realised Nat's game was so soon on the list. And I have been far more committed to all my games than your average player.

The b4 pawn is actually of very little consequence to the game right now. It can be considered a dead piece. Bringing out the bishop on Bd2 only frees up the castling option, but the move of castling should definitely be deferred until Black has been removed from the center.

[Pesco47]

I'm seeing a fork if we castle.

[Pesco47]

It's doable in 2 moves (after we've castled). The first step may be hidden as an attack on other pieces, springing the fork when we respond to the diversion threat.

I don't have that much of an issue with Bd2 being played. The followup is where I'm seeing things differently. If they do respond with a5 to Bd2, I'll suggest my line of thoughts.

[Pesco47]

They have a mobile knight. Knights are good at forking things. Work out the rest yourself.

[Pesco47]

I have never said it was unstoppable and would rather not give black the option of this play by telling them exactly where to move. If you can see it too, take it into consideration with regards to castling.

[Pesco47]

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Bd2 a5
12. o-o-o Ne4
13. Be3 Nf2
*/chess tag removed*

Final state, the in-between moves are, of course, variable.

[Pesco47]

The in between moves are variable. Meaning a5 might not be played, the bishop may not be there to cover f2 and so on.

[Pesco47]

How many other plausible moves can you come up with as fillers to get to that final position on the board?

[Pesco47]

A better question, what do you expect Bd2 to be responded with and how likely is that move going to be played?

[Pesco47]

Move Bd2

[Pesco47]

Any suggestions if you don't support this move?

[Pesco47]

Why not just move 11. Ne5? There's only 1 solution to it as I see right now. I don't have a followup in mind yet.

[Pesco47]

Lynching would take less days than moves needed to end the chess game. We still need to play a move to end the day, when we do start lynching, we can just play moves to stall the chess game after the lynch is decided. I'm up for normal scumhunting when that time comes.

[Pesco47]

I think we should come to realise that winning on the board could take up to 30+ mafia game days. Lynching, although unfavourable, is far more realistic. And when black has sufficient numbers to force moves, they would have won already by being able to force lynches too anyway.

Mod: Deadline please?

[Pesco47]

Let's be realistic about how many mafia game days we will need to actually win a chess game. We're all sitting around with nobody budging from their moves and not reaching a clear majority. If this game is to avoid abandonment, a deadline is to be in place.

The voting record for moves is no indication of scummy or not. If you want to call me scum, then get a better case. All the reasons you've given for me being scum can be applied to the other players too and I don't see you calling them on those same points.


As an aside to the lack of activity in this game, I think it's a design flaw that some sort of chess clock system wasn't implemented to keep the players participating.

[Pesco47]

I would really like to see that people stop voting each other. I don't see the point that is being made about the amount of mafia days, does it even matter at all?

Would you like to play in a mafia game here that took 30+ days? Given that the average mafia day on MS is around 3 weeks, we need 90 weeks for this game.

[Pesco47]

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
*/chess tag removed*

Black moved to a6.

Looking at the board again, I do see a bit for Be2. But it's really lame (probably only what I'm seeing is lame). Bd2 kinda feels the same.

[Pesco47]

From what I'm seeing, d5 doesn't get us anywhere.

[Pesco47]

No change from me since my last posts.

[Pesco47]

Nxd5

[Pesco47]

We look even worse off than before in that position.

[Pesco47]

We look even worse off than before in that position.

Care to elaborate?

Lack of development and the wide open spaces look like a bad end waiting to happen.

[Pesco47]

@ Veerus: Read all of sirdanilot's posts this game and tell me what he's posted.

[Pesco47]

The move with the most votes will be played at deadline. We also have the option of offering a draw.

[Pesco47]

@ Veerus: Read all of sirdanilot's posts this game and tell me what he's posted.

You haven't answered this yet, Veerus.

[Pesco47]

@ Veerus: Read all of sirdanilot's posts this game and tell me what he's posted.

You haven't answered this yet, Veerus.

yes, i know he's coasting, but unlike you, he's not directly trying to throw the town off of the better moves

He's still not participating in a meaningful way, for which you have voted me but given him a free pass for. If I was really throwing town off of good moves then town deserves to lose for being led like that. You don't like my input, then don't complain that I'm not participating.

[Pesco47]

Nice one, play it by WIFOM and appeal to emotion.

[Pesco47]

Pointing out a hypocrisy in Veerus' case is scumhunting. He's calling my move suggestions as scummy and detrimental to town, then also calling me scummy when I keep quiet and make no more 'bad move suggestions'. That's blatant nitpicking at everything he can find to try paint me scum.