MT 2263: Web of Lies - Game Over

[Bell]

Hey first.

House, lukewarm and I are town.

Best of luck to the scum team!

[Bell]

*nods sagely*

[Bell]

Communication.

Don’t worry Dunn, you’re still a Miller to me.

[Bell]

Consolation prize, I kinda lean town on the action itself. Like the follow through on it.

Scum!Dunn would presumably know that I already talked about his plan in the other hoods

Huh. That’s a good point. Did you imply you would go along with it or ever say yes to the thought?

[Bell]

*doesn’t know what Dunnstrall was trying to do there*

[Bell]

*doesn’t know what Dunnstrall was trying to do there*

What are you talking about

I don’t know what the benefit to your approach to house is.
I already said he was town.

[Bell]

Don't be a noob, I saw without a hint of self-awareness.

[Bell]

Luke, House and I are gimmes.
Go forth and find, like, 3 more town and I think we POE win.

Remembrance, Knell but I went on hiatus and I don't think I've played with you from either of those accounts.

I'm just calling you town because after the last game we played together, I figure that based just on what Luke said, my impression of you, and how you're playing, you're probably just town again.

[Bell]

Lol.

[Bell]

I trusted Lukewarm's description of your play from across neighborhoods.
You'll see it when the game is over.

[Bell]

"they way they're playing" is a great read when you haven't actually seen what they're doing and it's pregame

Ugh, the pregame argument. Like that means anything to people that love solving the game as early as possible.

[Bell]

When did you ever trust me?
I demand you show proof.

[Bell]

It's bed time!
Work tomorrow.

@Dunn: I don't follow. But I can't imagine the point would reveal much.

Good night world.

*snoozes*

[Bell]

I tend to think of trust in the following ways.

1. This person said they're going to do a thing. I think they're gunna do the thing, actually.
2. I value this person's opinions, I will weigh it more than I would weigh it from someone I don't trust.
3. Don't trust people unless you can afford betrayal.

I didn't realize Dunnstral was using trust in place of "I usually town read Bell, but this time, I am not doing that! Le gasp!" - Dunnstral

[Bell]

Have you guys never played with house before?

[Bell]

Cupcake, may I ask a question?

[Bell]

I've played a few games with you in your flamenco style and I always found it fun.
You sound kind of dead inside this game.

What happened?

[Bell]

I see. Good to know. Thanks

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Bell]

Nobody is giving me sufficient reason not to murder Dunnstral.
*Shrug, Keeps voting*

[Bell]

*blink*
What are you talking about?
I want you dead because your posts in response to House associating you with another player is just...Blech.

[Bell]

Sorry, I meant really boring.

[Bell]

I've been in bliss ignoring that bastard for like the last year and then you meme me.
Put it in spoilers.
Spoilers.
TW.

[Bell]

Takin’ a mafia day off.
Have a good one.

[Bell]

Lunch.
I lied.

Malcolm. Claim.

Flea, Malcolm.
Tell me what you wrote. Wait actually it doesn’t matter if it was meant to be bait.
So actually. You should probably just die.

[Bell]

*points at Lukewarm* change your mind before you die tonight.
I have a long history of fooling you and I tend to town bin you as scum so I get why you would be suspicious. But I think you should recognize that you’re very obvious town and so, as town. I would town bin you too.

[Bell]

*points at Lukewarm* change your mind before you die tonight.
I have a long history of fooling you and I tend to town bin you as scum so I get why you would be suspicious. But I think you should recognize that you’re very obvious town and so, as town. I would town bin you too.

Why is this written like I have encountered scum Bell more then exactly once? Lol

Twice!
Twice!

[Bell]

Claim Malcolm.

I’m against voting scum because I enjoy making scum bus.

[Bell]

Yep. E-2 to my knowledge.

[Bell]

From experience E-2 is the only way to be safe with these sorts of things.

Though this one looks like a supremely obvious slam dunk.

[Bell]

UNVOTE:

I have not digested the game in full but it sounds like Malcolm scumslipped?

I should pay more attention to the game right now but my ADHD-like symptoms have been very prominent today. Mafia does not help that, and sometimes worsens it.

Yep. a freebie.

[Bell]

It’s not a freebie?

[Bell]

Is anybody gunna make anymore pertinent remarks within the next day or two or should I start baying for blood now.

[Bell]

Still town.

[Bell]

I can’t think of anything I could mention here that would be particularly pro town beyond “don’t do dumb stuff”.
Unless you’re a scum neighborizor in which case, please continue.

[Bell]

VOTE: Malcolm Tucker

[Bell]

2 more to go~

[Bell]

You hammered yeah. I think. They were at F-2. Then I voted, then you voted.

[Bell]

Two more scum to go?

[Bell]

I’m at flea, me, Luke, house at obvtown status.
If I use a hard rule.
Stephen feels unlikely.

After that it’s mostly just assumptions.
I don’t think I need many more correct town reads to win from here though.

[Bell]

MT can be good scum tho. Which is why I hesitate even though I feel they’re largely following their town meta.

[Bell]

Ugh spent my morning free time reading this.

@MT: meta’d you a lot the first time we played together. And I read your games some times

I don’t have secret alts. Too busy.

[Bell]

It is I. Bell the peace maker.

I’m here to kill somebody.

VOTE: StrangeMatter

[Bell]

Why StrangeMatter?

Because the back up died. I believe their claim, but not their alignment.

[Bell]

Lukewarm wants to keep them alive to confirm people. But they're probably just scum based on play.

[Bell]

Also, Noraa won't let me murder you.

[Bell]

I feel like dropping an inno result on a fairly suspected slot can buy them a day.

Bell, what are your thoughts on Enchant and Almost50?

Enchant seems townish flavor.
And I have no opinion about A50.

...Was Noraa fairly suspected?

[Bell]

To note, while I think A50 struggles with being scum we're well past that and into "He's probably just busy with something" levels of activity.

[Bell]

Oh, I must have just had my rose glasses on because they seemed to have a fairly solid entrance in my view. At least tonally.

[Bell]

Oh, A50 posted.
...
Yep.

[Bell]

I would like to encourage Stephen to keep trying in hood even though they're dead.

[Bell]

I encourage them to keep trying even though they're not very good at it scum hunting apparently. :3

[Bell]

Lukewarm wants to keep them alive to confirm people. But they're probably just scum based on play.

I'd like you to explain your thought process behind this tbh.

In fact I'm just going to say I get really bad vibes coming from this.

You're very brave, letting everyone know that, in fact, you get bad vibes from the guy attacking a claimed investigative role. :3.

[Bell]

Lukewarm wants to keep them alive to confirm people. But they're probably just scum based on play.

I'd like you to explain your thought process behind this tbh.

In fact I'm just going to say I get really bad vibes coming from this.

Your entrance sucked and was 80% talking about previous game events and 20% hunting.
In sharp contrast to Noraa, whose interest in solving from the get go was clear.

You're more focused on arguing why you're town and not scum. I guess, arguably this could be explained by you being a PR that prioritizes their own survival. But that doesn't explain why you would even feel the need to do that, rather than just be as townie as you can be given all the people that scum have to kill given the unforced error that cleared a few players. You didn't even come up with unique ways to use your role, Lukewarm did all the work for you.

I don't see motivation to win using your role nor to win using your brain.

So I think you're scum.

[Bell]

Er, if you're hoping that this is actually a case of me trying to protect the PR by shading them so that scum don't Nk them.

That's not the case this time.

[Bell]

agh bell's TR on me makes me nervous. i dont think bell should really think im town "from the get go"

*shrug* it seemed obvious to me because you always whine when you roll scum, but you just started posting and solving right away. I know you disagree with anything that seeks to define you, but that's how I see you at least.

[Bell]

i feel like one of us always SRs the other when we're both town but also idk maybe i react like this to scum bell also? idk

That's because this is the case. Then again I don't really remember you having voted me before except when you bussed me maybe once? You tend not to support or attack me though.

[Bell]

agh bell's TR on me makes me nervous. i dont think bell should really think im town "from the get go"

*shrug* it seemed obvious to me because you always whine when you roll scum, but you just started posting and solving right away. I know you disagree with anything that seeks to define you, but that's how I see you at least.

you've definitely scumread me when i was town

before though. and

i dont ever whine as town.

Yes. These can both be true at the same time. I've already made the case for town you and you were even confirmed barring SM lying about their result. It's not just a singe reason.

[Bell]

It's not like I didn't know that turbo sorting people wouldn't land me in hot water.
I'm not unaware that if I reach conclusions quickly people will question whether I had thought about them at all or it's just positioning.

[Bell]

The answer of course is that, I can get into some very detailed (and sometimes very wrong) reads early game and I get called out on that fairly often.

Usually Noraa paralyzes my brain with all the shit posting. But Because she repped in it wasn't as difficult to process her.
I think House is a relatively easy sort,

but mainly I just fake confidence in reads because I think it's funny if the scum team starts panicking if I'm right and it's even more funny to me (andthem) if I'm wrong.

[Bell]

I think I'm going to have a lot of good and accurate reads this game though.

I could be wrong on that though, my accuracy isn't very good! But the opportunities to sort people was a lot higher this game than is typical.

[Bell]

Usually Noraa paralyzes my brain with all the shit posting.

except i've shit posted more in this game than almost any game i've played this year?

I didn't say you didn't shit post, just that usually my brain usually has a hard time processing this.

Also, won't lie. Haven't read the last 5 or 6 pages once I saw the LLD+House back and forth I went into my house and turned the lights off.

[Bell]

Hm. I don't disagree that I haven't been actively scumhunting, but how you keep shading me Bell, it partially reads like a play to keep options open. Though, more likely they just legit thing I'm scum and are completely wrong in that regard.

Sure, I can be wrong.

Pedit: Ah, you have grammar struggles. That may explain your unusual use of of the phrase 'keeping options open.' or comparing a scum bussing a God father to this interaction with you.

[Bell]

Ah.
So you mean that scum would be trying to smash the current PoE(NOT Lukewarm, Flea, House, Noraa are clearish) by pushing someone who is town and could potentially narrow the PoE further.
I pretty much expected that argument from the get go. I pushed it anyway because of my opinion.

That was pretty brave of Kilga to do as scum.

[Bell]

SM is pretty referential in thought.
I'll ponder that.

[Bell]

You don't need motivation to do nothing, because you... Uh.

Doing nothing. You don't need ENERGY (and thus any motivation).

Wrong, I am highly motivated to do nothing whenever I can.

[Bell]

VOTE: Almost50

Chedder

Flagged for adjacent buddying.

[Bell]

I don’t remember ever directly explaining why I’m town reading you house. /:

[Bell]

Yeah, so why did you say my reasons for reading you were accurate?

[Bell]

Yeah but I never said in thread that you were a shit stirrer.

[Bell]

*gasp* do you have access to my scum PT?!

[Bell]

The flea quote is a mystery I guess I tapped on it accidentally.

The cheddar comment just looks like Enchant is egging you on or rather affirming your approach.

[Bell]

Are you telling me that lukewarm leaked private communications from our scum PT?
He would never betray me!

[Bell]

My reads haven’t actually changed much btw.

except MT is moving a bit higher into my town reads.
And Norra is clear in almost every instance I can think of.

So that just leaves Dunn, enchant, A50, LLD, and SM.

[Bell]

If we just kill them all in a straight line do we win. Or do we need to find one more town?

[Bell]

I want the math and A50 seems very smug in response to enchant pushing them.

[Bell]

Wut

I didn't push A50

Correction. A50 just seems smug then and is clearly eyeing you.

[Bell]

A player that has no stances has nothing to be accountable for.

Sure. VOTE: A50

[Bell]

So that just leaves Dunn.

since im clear in every instance, why dont you trust town noraas read on dunn?

Reads are cool, but I barely trust my own reads, let alone another player’s.

[Bell]

How doesn’t that make sense to you.
A person can have sincere opinions and still be horribly wrong. How do you think town loses games?

[Bell]

Yep. That quick hammer happened.

[Bell]

*shrug*

Bye A50.

I think Ukraine’s gunna get invaded yeah.
As to whether any good will come of that I dunno.

[Bell]

Yay!

[Bell]

Wait what

[Bell]

Lol

[Bell]

VOTE: Enchant

I guess.

[Bell]

It's just Enchant and Bell?

It's not. Enchant is *possibly* scum, but I'm not.

[Bell]

Groetus, take me.

[Bell]

I posted my communications to the rest of them. They've all read it.

[Bell]

I understand that their role is confirmed, but not their alignment.

they dont clear morning as scum. they just claim blocked.

You're not thinking good.

[Bell]

Bell said they were gonna try to push SM in our hood
Then worried about how they were gonna defend themselves after.

what if we just flashwagon bell

I showed you these communications but you never read them. I explained in exacting detail what I meant, how there was an omission and how scum slips aren't a thing that happens with me as scum for the most part.

[Bell]

So on the off chance SM is scum let them stick around and clear everyone lmao

More not thinking good.

[Bell]

Mathy im gonna scumread you for fun ok >:3

Okay. Long as it’s just for fun and not like for realsies.

I am having a bad day and want a scum elim pwease <3

I'm sorry you're having a bad day, but if you're town (I think you are) and you eliminate your main scum read (me) you're going to have a worse day, lol.

[Bell]

MB, question.
Why didn't you share LLD's full claim in the mass neighborhood?
Your entire PoE was in the thread LLD posted their role in.
So why deny the town information?

[Bell]

I've pretty much never played in a game where scum intentionally no killed.

[Bell]

MB, question.
Why didn't you share LLD's full claim in the mass neighborhood?
Your entire PoE was in the thread LLD posted their role in.
So why deny the town information?

Because while I have a PoE
I am a replacement and don’t just go sharing unverified claims
Especially when unsure if they are true or not.

I was and still am working on incomplete information.

I figure if the hood was pure then whether LLD claimed invest or mason or protective then scum don’t know

Do I think it’s pure? Obviously not

Do I trust the claim? Not sure.

The hood isn't pure in almost any circumstance that I can think of, but you did just replace in, so I'll give you a pass for your unfamiliarity with the set up. It's waste of my time to go into philosophy about whether people should be informed and decide for themselves in a game like mafia, where, that's pretty much the case. Scum team absolutely knew about LLD's claim. By hiding it, lie or not. All you did was deny town that same information.

[Bell]

Flea is, in my opinion, behaviorally cleared. Until elo where I guess you could get extra paranoid for fun.

Math is just an artifact of my house read. I'm pretty sure if they replaced into anybody else's slot I'd have been tunneled on math again because this isn't the first time he tried to get me eliminated for a 'scum' slip.

[Bell]

Steph is dead, so I feel pretty good about that one being cleared.

[Bell]

Are the mass neighborizor's one shot, because otherwise it seems a simple matter based on the priority we've learned about to force the neighborizor to correct for the mistake.

But proceed, maybe I'm missing something.

[Bell]

Forget it MT, it's Noraaland.

[Bell]

Can we talk about why LLD would claim macho at all if it weren't true though.

[Bell]

i want to know who LLD protected last night before doing anything though since i think macho weakens prs also idk anything about how setup balancing works.

Townie post.


MB, your decision not to share LLD's information with what would largely be a group of town player was incorrect, but it's largely immaterial.

[Bell]

I can't turn off my automatic hunting protocol.
That's no fun.

[Bell]

Don't see why LLD wouldn't just shoot SM or MT.

I guess LLD might have claimed Macho to prevent a counter claim from another protective.

[Bell]

No I mean, if there was another protective they wouldn't be quite as paranoid/murder happy to attack them in the off chance there was one.

[Bell]

I'm not giving it any leniency at all though.
I'm pretty much going through all the things I can think of to explore it and where I decide to stand on it.
It should be noted that I don't know how to push LLD though.

[Bell]

I'm not giving it any leniency at all though.
I'm pretty much going through all the things I can think of to explore it and where I decide to stand on it.
It should be noted that I don't know how to push LLD though.

Devils advocate

What are you undecided on?

Whether her claim is true.
Whether there's a different gambit she's trying to pull off as town.
Whether there was drama in the scum PT with Penguin and Cabd.
Whether she's demotivated due to IRL things and would claim like that as scum when she doesn't give a shit.
Whether she's demotivated due to House misgendering her and not apologizing.
Whether she would just replace out if she wasn't feeling it.

and lots of other stray thoughts.
A lot of these are unanswerable.
But I also don't want to be near a volcano if it erupts.
I'm aware it looks like I'm just trying to sell her claim like a good scum partner, but the fact I'm posting it anyway, should say something.

I also don't want any of those questions except 1, 2, and maybe 5, 6 answered. and only the last two post game.

[Bell]

They're only mech town if SM dies this game and flips town.
Also, even if they're actually town and I was pretty much the first player to argue that they were this game. It's good to catalogue what a townie looks like whenever you have the opportunity for other games.

[Bell]

Noraa is scum.

[Bell]

I can say whatever I want whenever I want and I don't have to provide a reason or even be right.
Fuck yeah.

[Bell]

Gunna say this one last time though.

I'm town. You were warned.

[Bell]

Outing her claim was fine.

Everyone saying whether they believed her claim, or if that meant too much town power, ect was probably not smart

Yeah it was a rock and a hard place

I don’t think I really picked wrong though

If most of town agrees we can just do Bell and get LLD tomorrow

You did. Repeatedly, in spite of me being present every step of the way.

[Bell]

I get what you're saying. But like, maybe you should have thought about that one in your free time.

[Bell]

Instead of whatever you're doing this game.

[Bell]

I dunno maybe read my posts?
There are a lot of those.

[Bell]

You've only played with me like 10 times Dunnstral. You'd think you'd have opinions by now.

[Bell]

When did you switch from pushing me to whatever is happening now?

This hasn't changed. But I realize my expectations of your town play have always been disproportionately favorable to your actual results.
Whenever I get frustrated this game I find myself thinking, "If only Dunnstral would come in with an insightful post!" but it just hasn't happened this game.

[Bell]

Also, I'd rather kill Enchant first and I'm still focused on my SM paranoia.
There's actually, a lot of paranoia in my mind this game tbh. But that's sort of inevitable whenever you don't know who the scum are.

[Bell]

Mathblade, I genuinely wish you wouldn't take everything I say and use it to affirm your initial position.

[Bell]

I don't recall you arguing hard for either an enchant elimination or an LLD elimination.

[Bell]

Math.
I don't expect anyone to see me insisting I'm town to actually change their minds. The usual response is Dunnstral's response. I don't think arguing or scum hunting would do it either, no matter how well reasoned or patient I as. Because that's the usual response to.
People aren't easy to convince of anything they don't already believe.

[Bell]

If you don't think they're scum they're not in your PoE. For example, Dunnstral isn't in your PoE, without an explanation.
But If I wanted to point out how everything you say is is in error, I'd be here for an exceptionally long time.

[Bell]

Given previous experience Mathblade, knowing what's under the hood in your reasoning is usually cause for psychic pain.

[Bell]

We're probably just too alike to get along. But I have a theory that Mathblade is just what an enemy is.
I've never had one of those before in mafia. It's not very helpful or productive but I find myself emotionally more annoyed with them then is really fair to them.

But I do understand it. Sort of.

[Bell]

Look Mathblade,
you said I scum slipped.
I fucking didn't.
You've single handedly derailed the town from a cleaner victory. Than what otherwise might be the case.

[Bell]

My PoE is broader than yours is, Math.

I think the PoE is in (SM, LLD, Dunnstral, Enchant)
and probably(but not likely based on play, more on Noraa's side than on MT's) an outgrowth where Noraa or MT can be scum if SM is.

[Bell]

MT, I don't really get how us posting has to do with whenever LLD decides to come in and post or not post.

[Bell]

Oh.
Nobody told me he has an Inno.

Don't see why SM can't actually be scum though.
I mean from the perspective of a game designer adding power elsewhere and giving town a back up to a scum safe claim seems reasonable to me.
Regardless of how limited that role may be by the choices people made in regards to the 4 job threads.

[Bell]

Did I miss a section where Dunnstral claimed something or something.

[Bell]

I'm sorry for losing my temper.

[Bell]

I can easily imagine SM scum true claiming and then being dictated on what they can and can't do without scum claiming.
They were managed from beginning to end in the hood.

But yes, now that Dunnstral is clear, they can't escape so the point is largely mute and I don't feel like I need to go further than this because they can't win if it's the case.

[Bell]

Processing.

[Bell]

VOTE: LLD

I think I sort of get it now and this explains Dunnstral's recent conversation with me adequately.

[Bell]

It is in fact, LLD+Enchant.
With SM being a long shot.

[Bell]

UNVOTE:

[Bell]

Does this actually change something?

Don't think so, no.

[Bell]

It'd be pretty funny if the two doctor claims were real but SM's wasn't.

[Bell]

There's two macho doctors also?

Press X to doubt.

How are you so brave.

[Bell]

Wait what.

[Bell]

Noraa. You get down here this instant and explain yourself young lady.

I have work tomorrow and it starts at 7:30 and I need to get up at 6:00.

[Bell]

Bless you enchant, but you are a bad liar put into an awkward position.

[Bell]

I would've just shut down, probably just covered my face with my hands and sat embarrassed for five minutes before moving on.

So that's cool.

[Bell]

Wdym, we gonna win

Ye

[Bell]

VOTE: Enchant

Can’t sleep.

Probably not moving my vote from this one tbh.

[Bell]

Ye

[Bell]

LLD-Bell makes sense as the team. if not, Enchant-Bell.

Lol.

[Bell]

I’m pretty sure enchant is lying ever since he started posting last night.

[Bell]

Also, I dunno why neither of you can read me.

[Bell]

Work time. *sad face* it was a nice weekend.

I’m interested in hearing if dunnstral has any opinions.

[Bell]

Also, I feel like I’m the only VT in this game.

[Bell]

Bell out.

*control yourself Bell*

[Bell]

gg, I do think the rng was unfortunate, + probably too many PR's and the slip was pretty disastrous. It could have only been worse if he mentioned a buddy or multiple buddy's name in there. Nobody to blame there though that's just high risk. I do think that the player choice at the beginning may also have been in error. I guess in general my novice take on the concept is that there was a lot of tools from a toolbox for one game of mafia. ore like, there were too many fun ideas (mashed together rather than a focused concept.

@MB, it's all right, the problem largely lies with me. Sorry for getting frustrated again.

[Bell]

Work time. *sad face* it was a nice weekend.

I’m interested in hearing if dunnstral has any opinions.

Spoiler:

Ah by the way I'm a friendly neighbor.

So. It's not me.

And it's not Noraa, because they have the traffic analyst result on them.

And it's not StrangeMatter, because they are the Traffic Analyst, of which there was a backup.

And it's not Lukewarm, because he coordinated the above, and didn't interfere with it when he had knowledge*. And their role. And they're organizing favorable checks for the town.

*It may not have been possible to interfere with it due to the nature of neighborhoods

And it's not Flea, because they outted Malcolm when only they had access to that information.

-----

So that leaves Almost50, Enchant, Morning Tweet, Bell, House, and Lady Lambdadelta.

Feel free to try to narrow it down further, but this is where I am most comfortable drawing the line without feeling like I'm falsely putting someone as town.

*thumbs up*

[Bell]

Gg, Bell I'm glad we managed to not miselim you along the way!

Me too.

[Bell]

1. It’s mafia and I’m in the wrong for getting frustrated at being pushed. No matter what the reason as long as it’s within win con.
2. I probably would have gotten eliminated if the scum team didn’t concede. Maybe if I tried and spammed more I could have gotten enchant limmed before getting limmed myself.
3. LLD, if they didn’t care about the game being lost would have easily stomped me after though and I’d be dead before her.
Prolly.

[Bell]

Bell. I thought that your solve was perfect.

I was pushing SM throughout the game incorrectly.
I only got the solve right because there were three people in the PoE and one of them was me.

@MB: please don’t apologize. I also openly admitted I don’t know how to push LLD either.

[Bell]

My dog died during this game. So I didn’t read much but the absolute end of the exchange between house and LLD and never read back.
Maybe I will anyway, later but all I got from it was that house misgendered LLD and refusing to apologize or back down because I guess if you don’t respect someone you can call them whatever you want which yeah. Good ban was good.

[Bell]

And May your dog enjoy doggy Heaven or a peaceful rest

Bones for doggo

Here, here. Thank you Math.

[Bell]

Er, if you thought I was joking or making an obscure reference. I wasn’t.

Unless you’re being serious in which case, I’m sorry Dunnstral that sucks.

[Bell]

LLD so supportive in scum PT.