UK Eastermeet 2022 Invitational (Game over!)

[Primate]

So it's probably not a bad discussion starter: can anyone do anything with the stuff in the opening post?

Nominate: Bellaphant

[Primate]

It's probably pro-town for bella to give away their potatoes so they don't die with town.

[Primate]

If they don't that would just cement them as scum imho.

[Primate]

Day 1 quickguess: evil team is Primate and Bella

This is wrong but there's a compelling narrative there I think if you want to go further with it.

[Primate]

do you think scum!primate would give me the opportunity to kill his scumbuddy that quickly? super risky. also I think the scumteam is flavoured as a cult because of the whodunnit, but like, without recruits

Yeah I agree it's pretty unlikely but I wanted to throw it out there. It might seem like a risky play but I think it's actually safer to get nominated earlier rather than later, because most people aren't gonna go ahead with an execution that quickly, and if you don't support it then Bella becomes safe for the rest of the day.

Kinda like Menno right now but I'm also easily swayed

Also CES had started to push Bella, so it could be seen as an attempt to get ahead of it. That's the argument for why I'd nom my scumbuddy bella over a random townie, if you were that way inclined. I wouldn't start building any theories about scumteams based on it though, I'm not scum.

Primates vote on Bella did come in pretty quick. What are you actually wanting to achieve here, Primate?

Pfft, play the ball, not the man.

[Primate]

@Bella: Fairly clear CES was talking about the specific reaction, not just a reaction.

Pfft, play the ball, not the man.

It's a genuine question. I see more scum plays than town plays myself in placing the nomination down that early and am wanting to know your thoughts on why you did so.

Sure, I get that you want to know that.

[Primate]

@primate, confused. I was saying your nom looked like a reaction test, not about CES. I did think CES was less serious than he seems to be tho, hence the follow up type writer joke.

Sure. I was referring to "I don't think CES can really think that reading an opening post of, what looks like from my pov, nonsense, and reacting to it is scummy at all. an opener like that deserves a reaction!". Which I think is a little disingenuous as CES wasn't talking about the fact you reacted (others did, Fenchurch off the top of my head), it was your specific reaction of asking if others had roles that interacted with the stuff in the intro post.

[Primate]

I also don't really get where the townreads are coming from, to be fair. My townreads atm are Menno and Fenchurch. I don't really get where you'd get a read on Nexus from at this point. Cpol I get why but I agree with Myko that it very much feels like a default, and if you find him scummy I think it's worth asking yourself how you think he would play in a forum game.

Myko being scum is legit. VOTE: Myko

PPE:

I'd like a further comment really on things that aren't me from them.

Now you've said this I'm inclined to be contrary and not make this post.

[Primate]

Fair question but I will corroborate that your first two posts were scummy myko.

[Primate]

Cpol who should I eliminate next, if you had to pick.

[Primate]

Same question to Klick, but in that case assuming Cpol is off the table.

[Primate]

Also, for people who want to do Meta, I was consul D1 in the original consulmaker game in 2007.

In that I was scum and did NOT immediately execute someone in my first post, so I'm obviously town in this game. Pretty ironclad imho.

[Primate]

I've been super rammed at work, I will catch up midday today probably.

[Primate]

I've just been lurking, no real excuse past tuesday. I'm struggling to get back into the game so I'll *just post*. I'm not the potato giver.

Cpol gaining a potato is a mild surprise. Makes me a little suspicious that he was so eager to give away his potato d1. If you're scum and know there's a scum potato vendor seems a neat trick. I don't really get Postie's certainty in the early day about Cpol.

Menno doing the execution was surprising. I think it was a bit shit to not get a claim but it's also a bit to brazen to be something I'd normally call scummy.

The lack of explanation for the hammer either Yesterday or Today seems fairly damning.

Yeah.

Don't agree with Cpol in #199. Postie looks super town.

Vibing with CES a lot today.

Poro is scummy.

[Primate]

Underwhelming Primate catch up but I'll take it - the logic on Menno feels a lot like "too scummy to be scum", which in my experience is a terrible argument; scum can and will do brazenly anti-town things if they think the risk/payoff calculation works out

Not my intention. I just think they're scummy.

I'm very concerned how multiple people are backing off Menno all at once.

I’m also bothered by people backing off Menno. I still think Menno is 90% likely scum for the quick hammer. The contrition and explanation hasn't changed that for me and only came after people have pushed for it. Overall I think Menno's play is exactly like scum who judged (rightly or wrongly) that that quickhammer would be in their favour and was worth eating an execution for.

I don't know about that. Possibly more of a "damn the consequences, tomorrows problem

There are a few things that Postie does D1 that make me think they're likely town, but this switch in particular from going with the Menno wagon to quickly reconsidering about Chris still being alive make me put Postie solidly in the town pile

Yeah.

I don't think Poro or CES are particularly town, I think they're currently two rather high odds of hitting scum if we voted in there

Poro in particular it feels like in 173 he gives a few thoughts, but ultimately is content with the Menno wagon that's forming and the status quo generally - and if I follow my gut and say that Menno is town, Poro's play feels a lot more like scum fine with letting the Menno vote just slide through

Don't like the poro/ces grouping.
About Poro, yeah.

@Primate

- who's your biggest scumread? Why aren't you voting anyone?

Don't know, and I'm bad at mafia. Probably Poro or Menno.

I don't like it when people say "Lets vote from within X/Y/Z, probably fine, probably scum in there".

The profile I get from this is not that they are hoping this will blow over - I'm getting defeatism, and then from after 213, an interest in providing thoughts that come to them.

Uh, yeah, which is scummy.

I should stop pulling the poro read out of my ass and actually solidify it. Klick's been a bit scummy too.

[Primate]

I'm not really talking about cpol because I don't really think they're scum but i don't really agree with them about much (the pushback against postie I get, that's fine, I don't really get why Postie's tunnelling so hard (although it is making them seem town, which is nice) )

[Primate]

Don't find him particularly scummy, lean town. Him keeping his thoughts limited to certain issues is a bit of a shame. I don't agree with your argument against him and Chris' case is uninspiring.

[Primate]

Don't find him particularly scummy, lean town. Him keeping his thoughts limited to certain issues is a bit of a shame. I don't agree with your argument against him and Chris' case is uninspiring.

Then why aren't you voting Menno right now? You even said you think they are scummy in #324.

I think I'm mostly just lying to myself about the fact that my lurking has meant I haven't really been able to influence the day at all, by pretending the deadline doesn't exist.

VOTE: Vote McMenno

[Primate]

I'm alive.

Are you up for a mass claim

Yep. I actively think we should do it.

[Primate]

(I think it's just poro and postie left?)

I'm a Mandarin covered in Sellotape. Vanilla. (I don't actually know what this is a reference to, my best guess would be the late night post restriction mafia game, or possibly when you were talking about playing cricket?)

Poro next.

[Primate]

That was less useful than I was hoping for.

[Primate]

This does mean candles are a scum mechanic, which is probably good for CES.

[Primate]

Who is Bernhard Piemann?

Bernhard Riemann in the name game became Piemann.

re: ces and candles. It's possible, but that would mean out of the mechanics we've got, consuls, candles, potatoes, are all scum influenced. Which could be true, but I feel it's less likely. There's not much meaning to be got out of the massclaim tbh except for the fact it basically confirms postie.

@Cpol: Ridiculous case. Cut out the stuff that doesn't make sense and I'll respond to it.

[Primate]

Primate never answered why they aren’t engaged with the game

To address this though. It's a bullshit question and I hope you don't seriously think I would respond.

[Primate]

Others have when asked? Or at least I've seen Menno explained the hammer by saying they were zooted, Nexus saying they aren't that invested because they are a VT, Poro saying that they weren't bothered by D1 because of the Consul/potato stuff and Wenna saying that they aren't super sure what to do in forum mafia. So I can't see why a similar level of explanation could be asked of you. Everyone there has been willing to put some kind of justification in.

Not posting is not posting. What's the point making an excuse, the reason's the same, there were other things you enjoyed doing more (or needed to do more) than playing forum mafia in this specific game at that time.

The potato gambit is plausible but I don't really get how you'd know and I think it devolves into wifom (which if it is a gambit may have been the point).

My current guess for scum team is Wenna, Porochaz, and one of Cpol or CES.

ehhh.

Does Fenchurch/Wenna makes sense?

[Primate]

There's not much meaning to be got out of the massclaim tbh except for the fact it basically confirms postie.

??

No need to thank me, you're welcome.

[Primate]

Others have when asked? Or at least I've seen Menno explained the hammer by saying they were zooted, Nexus saying they aren't that invested because they are a VT, Poro saying that they weren't bothered by D1 because of the Consul/potato stuff and Wenna saying that they aren't super sure what to do in forum mafia. So I can't see why a similar level of explanation could be asked of you. Everyone there has been willing to put some kind of justification in.

Not posting is not posting. What's the point making an excuse, the reason's the same, there were other things you enjoyed doing more (or needed to do more) than playing forum mafia in this specific game at that time.

So am I right in assuming that you just had a general apathy towards the game? And as a 'town' player, you were either happy with the direction that the game was taking, or simply not following it?

Depends what you mean by not following (I wasn't following closely), but mainly I didn't care about the result as much as I should have. I didn't really want to say that because I think it's pretty disrespectful to the mod. There's a reason I stopped playing forum mafia. I thought I might be ok because I played a game in 2020 and that went fine, but whoops, guess not.

Okay Primate help me out

My townreads atm are Menno and Fenchurch.

Poro is scummy.

Don't like the poro/ces grouping.

@Primate

- who's your biggest scumread? Why aren't you voting anyone?

Don't know, and I'm bad at mafia. Probably Poro or Menno.

Have any of these reads changed
Why or why not
(Excluding Menno obviously)
Do you have an explanation on your Poro read? Or at least posts you didn't like you can link?

Are you up for a mass claim

Yep. I actively think we should do it.

What was your thinking here?

Sure. Yes they've changed. The Poro/Ces grouping is me criticising Klick for seeming like he's lining up eliminations, not saying I don't like them as a pair (I have no reason to see them as a pair). I thought/think Ces was/is town, so it seemed like he might be preparing for a miselimination of poro after CES turned up town (which isn't the way the day went.)

Poro - I think dipping out because of the consul mechanic is just a convenient excuse and they didn't want to post. Early menno vote in #173 is pretty dull and the later #271 is just drifting, and menno/postie/lurkers in #271 feels an uninspiring list. I think I also got a strongtown read on you from the early d1 discussion and didn't really get why other people didn't. That was why I thought it at the time and it was more just vibes which is why I said I should solidify it. As to whether I still hold it, I guess yes? My initial read of #388 was that it seemed pretty town but honestly it doesn't really. There's also a bit of weirdness in #173 I missed previously where Poro says the Fenchurch/Postie discussion makes him feel bad about both of them, but disagrees more with Fenchurch, then Fos's postie instead of Fenchurch

@Poro, can you explain what the thought behind that last bit was?

Fenchurch - Yes it's changed. I don't really know why, I just don't feel it anymore. I think it's probably just the argument with you then the menno tunnelling d2, rather than exploring alternate options. It's weird though because I still find myself agreeing with them a bunch. If there was scum on the Menno wagon, imho it's Fenchurch (or possibly cpol but cpol wasn't actually pushing it).

About the massclaim. It's possibly because I've not been as invested and it's hypocritical for me to say, but the town generally seems a bit lazy. D1 went the way d1 did, and that was mine and menno's fault (although I don't really feel any blame for that). D2 we ended up going for menno, which was the default, and d3 we seemed to be going for CES, another default. Which isn't necessarily bad, if CES is actually scum, but it's just a bit weird. I do think we have 3 scum, and I think it'd be a shame if we miseliminated, lost, and never massclaimed. And personally my hope was that a massclaim would open up some new info that we could use to shake things up a bit, which hasn't really happened.

Unrelated to any of this. I said Fenchurch/Wenna in a previous post. That was based primarily on what seemed content by wenna (#381+398, last like #400, switch last line #414), but it does kind make sense, but when I posted that I thought it was genuinely suspicious and now I think it's just potential scumbuddy moves.

[Primate]

It's possibly because I've not been as invested and it's hypocritical for me to say, but the town generally seems a bit lazy.

As someone who

is

invested, feels disappointed that we've had 2 town executions, sad that I was wrong on Menno, frustrated that we might be cruising to a loss... yes, it is hypocritical

It wasn't really meant as a criticism, I'm more self aware than that. It's more like we've only 3 plausible vote wagons (bella/menno/ces) total (you could also count some pressure towards cpol at points), which is a bit weird and I was wondering why that might be the case. I think the most plausible explanation is just it's difficult to get wagons going with a lot of the living players less active and not making cases to get people on side though so I'm not sure it's as relevant. It mostly ties into whether I think the fact that you and CES kind of tunnelled menno d2 is anything. I do get why you would do that if you geniunely thought they were scum, but given the result of the day I think it's scummy, especially because as scum it would be really easy for you to just decide that you think the quickhammer is super scummy and take it as written that menno is scum. A bit like the dogmatism you were doing d1 with the potatoes and cpol. The same applies to CES of course, although CES takes more time getting there and interrogates menno about it.

[Primate]

Unrelated but the candles could be living non-vanilla roles, although I'm not sure what that would add to the game or our play, especially at this point.

[Primate]

Anyway it is interesting that you (Primate) have paired us (Fen/Wen), I have been anti-Fenchurch for most of this game, and very vocal about it. Fair enough if you see it as scum-buddying, but I have felt iffy about Fenchurch fright from early on, even if another player sneaks ahead because of XYZ. e.g. most recent posts, voting, listening to others and re-evaluating my views.

Yes, that's why I paired you.

I'm sorry for being less prepared to consider the quick hammer as impulsive town. Although, I still don't know if I would do anything differently next time. Like Postie described yesterday... I would feel annoyed if I wrote that off and then lost because they actually were scum. You all may be much more astute than me, but I don't think I could ever have felt confident enough in discerning Menno's alignment outside from that action.

That's not what I mean.

If there are three scum, then they only need to convince two townies to vote with them and the game is over, no? 8 alive -1 execution, -1 night kill gives us a 3/3 split the next day, ending the game?

You're kind of right but you're making some big assumptions about co-ordination. Also Nexus and wenna both being scum isn't unlikely at all? I agree (kind of) with CES' post about a jailkeeper too. Scum have a decent chance of winning here, I don't get why they risk a chance of a likely loss to speedlexecute someone who, based on previous days, is going to be executed anyway.

The first time you were at E-2, the claims hadn't happened yet. The jailkeeper wasn't known, so could have happened.

And this is super wrong. Scum didn't know the setup at this point. They aren't going to throw away 2 scum from a winning position when they don't have a solid picture of what roles are in the game and what could prevent them from winning.

I am not overly enamoured by Primates response to being called out - what I would call overly defensive/aggressive (similar to Patrick did to me during WereLeg one game when he was scum), plus for someone not 'invested' in the game, they sure responded quickly to being voted for. Nexus may have been luring a lot more, but several of their comments have resonated with what I was feeling at the time as well. I'll agree Wenna is a null for me at the moment, but could fall into that 1 voter category. And I still land on the fact that I can't see Nexus and Wenna together as a pairing.

I responded that day because steve dropped out of arkham so I had a free evening.

Nexus I could see being town.

VOTE: wenna

[Primate]

Well that's good, I'd prefer Wenna to Nexus.

VOTE: Wenna

If you'd rather vote for me than Nexus, why not just do it, why vote for Nexus before? Noone else was voting Nexus.

Were you waiting for someone else to vote for me, just in case I am executed, so when I flip town it seems less incriminating for you?

If you flip town we've got bigger problems than that.

[Primate]

oh, sorry, for some reason it didn't update me there'd been new posts after this one.

[Primate]

My current guess for scum team is Wenna, Porochaz, and one of Cpol or CES.

I am kind of curious as to why you'd say this while voting nexus (and continuing to vote nexus and ask direct questions of nexus). You also have CES as a possibility here and not nexus, and if you wanted to vote ces you've had plenty of opportunity in the day.

[Primate]

I'm going to review properly after we've played arkham in about 30mins but I'll be around until deadline after that. I still think Wenna is a better bet but I prefer fenchurch to CES right now.

[Primate]

I'm inclined against delaying generally. I get that it doesn't lose us much here but I've generally been of the feeling that if you do it then the scum just kill the person who is most correct, then you have to proceed another day without their input.

Assuming wenna is a no-go, which I'm doing at this point.

UNVOTE: Wenna
VOTE: Fenchurch

The reason I think Fenchurch over CES is
1. CES trying to actually query menno's motives d2.
2. I think Cpol's point about Fenchurch's claim not matching d1 initial post is shaky but valid.
3. I think Fenchurch's Nexus vote is odd.

[Primate]

I take it you are just willing to do CES or Fen? (I think we'd struggle to get anyone else but I'll give it a go if you've got a better shout)

[Primate]

Well, fuck.