Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Random Nurse]

Is there any way Serial Killers could be allowed back into 13-player Normal games?

[Random Nurse]

I know that the wiki currently states that no role that targets itself may be considered Normal, but...

...is there any way this could be re-examined?

For example, how about a 1-Shot "Examiner" /whatever, and basically it tells the user (who targeted themselves) what other actions targeted them that Night. It doesn't seem broken, does it?

[Random Nurse]

Out of curiosity, what is the limit when it comes to "Informed" Town and Mafia?

Meaning, how intricate can you make the details?

[Random Nurse]

Also, say you want to make a 13-player mountainous game, 10:3.

IF you were to make all of them "Informed," what can you even inform them about?

I could have ONE of the Town "Informed" that the Mafia team has 3 players, but... what else can you even make them informed about?

Could you have ONE of the Mafia Goons informed that, for example, "_____ Townie knows that there are 3 members of the Mafia."?

Could you also have X-Day Informed status obtained? Say, for example, on Day 3 one of the Townies become informed that there are 3 members in the Mafia team?

How intricate can we get?

[Random Nurse]

How intricate can we get?

Quite I bit I presume. Having one Informed knowing that another Informed knows X is actually a thing I did in a normal, so it can surely be done.

The wiki poses no explicit limitation on the sort of info that could be passed, so I deduct there is none explicitly

What I envision is making a *Mountainous* themed game that's way more intricate than any game with PRs. Like I could use the "clothes" players are wearing, their "food preferences," etc, in order to make really intricate Informed role PMs (think multiple paragraphs). I'd want to push the limit on just how Informed players can be, to make the game truly interesting.

[Random Nurse]

Yeah, I'd only use that for a themed game.

Seems like for a Normal mountainous game the options for the "Informed" role is extremely limited.

[Random Nurse]

I've got an idea for a new PR.

A Town/Scum "Sensor."

The variation I thought of only works Day 1, but I suppose could work any Day.

Basically after being eliminated, after being flipped the Mod confirms whether or not there was at least one Scum on that wagon.

A Scum Sensor probably wouldn't be that useful, but in multiball it could be.

Then again that would be OP if only Town votes...

[Random Nurse]

Also, I like the idea of a Vote-Activated modifier.

For example, you, the Town Tracker, can only use your ability the following Night if you were the 1st vote on a successful elimination.

That would add a nice layer of complexity and weaken PRs further to smooth things out.

[Random Nurse]

Why is it that a multiball game can be considered normal?
It’s a game type that I think only rly appears in open and normal queues. I don’t remember the last time a multiball game was ran outside of those queues (third parties don’t count here)

They used to, but they bring too much swing in smaller games, so are limited to larger games (which is fine). I'd prefer to keep the multiball option open in large normal games.

If there was some clever way to reduce swinginess in Mini Normal multiball games I would love to hear a solution. I wish that Normal games could incorporate (allow as an option) the accrual of $$$ each Day phase for either the "Town," "Townies," and "Scum." By calibrating it in such a way it could reduce swinginess quite a bit. Say for example Scum gets $50,000 each Night to do things, but a NK costs $100,000 to perform, thus making it so at best they'd have to wait two Nights to commit a NK without spending $$$ on anything else. I think if this layer of complexity could be introduced as a NORMAL function of Normal games, that, I think, could be quite beneficial.

[Random Nurse]

Why is it that a multiball game can be considered normal?
It’s a game type that I think only rly appears in open and normal queues. I don’t remember the last time a multiball game was ran outside of those queues (third parties don’t count here)

They used to, but they bring too much swing in smaller games, so are limited to larger games (which is fine). I'd prefer to keep the multiball option open in large normal games.

If there was some clever way to reduce swinginess in Mini Normal multiball games I would love to hear a solution. I wish that Normal games could incorporate (allow as an option) the accrual of $$$ each Day phase for either the "Town," "Townies," and "Scum." By calibrating it in such a way it could reduce swinginess quite a bit. Say for example Scum gets $50,000 each Night to do things, but a NK costs $100,000 to perform, thus making it so at best they'd have to wait two Nights to commit a NK without spending $$$ on anything else. I think if this layer of complexity could be introduced as a NORMAL function of Normal games, that, I think, could be quite beneficial.

write a theme around it

What do you mean, please?

[Random Nurse]

i think nurse got the idea from the mini theme he was scum in

Bingo. I really liked that setup.

[Random Nurse]

thus making it so at best they'd have to wait two Nights to commit a NK

You can actually already accomplish this by making all scum, e.g., compulsive odd-nights Visitors (with multitasking off) to allow to kill only on even nights; or using a combination of night specific/nonconsecutive to get whatever schedule you want

But I don't think they'd allow multiball in a Mini Normal with those changes alone.

I was trying to use the $$$ as a means to smooth it out to better allow multiball in Mini Normals.

Not sure how else to bring multiball back.

[Random Nurse]

I've got an idea for a new PR.

A Town/Scum "Sensor."

The variation I thought of only works Day 1, but I suppose could work any Day.

Basically after being eliminated, after being flipped the Mod confirms whether or not there was at least one Scum on that wagon.

A Scum Sensor probably wouldn't be that useful, but in multiball it could be.

Then again that would be OP if only Town votes...

Also, I like the idea of a Vote-Activated modifier.

For example, you, the Town Tracker, can only use your ability the following Night if you were the 1st vote on a successful elimination.

That would add a nice layer of complexity and weaken PRs further to smooth things out.

Any consideration on these?

[Random Nurse]

Uh huh.

Alright.

[Random Nurse]

I see no good reason to remove multiball from Large Normals.

You may as well destroy Mafia doing that.

[Random Nurse]

It's a bad idea to remove multiball from Large normal games, period. You notice this site isn't nearly as busy as it was back in 2013; you remove multiball from Large Normals and you're putting another nail in the coffin.

Soon I'll be modding a Large Normal that is multiball. These types of games aren't as uncommon as you think they are.

[Random Nurse]

It's a bad idea to remove multiball from Large normal games, period. You notice this site isn't nearly as busy as it was back in 2013; you remove multiball from Large Normals and you're putting another nail in the coffin.

Soon I'll be modding a Large Normal that is multiball. These types of games aren't as uncommon as you think they are.

they can always be run in the theme queue, look how long T3's took to fill.

I believe a site-wide mass-ping by mod staff for Larges that have been in queue for over two months would help. I mass-pinged multiple times to get that Large filled.

When I ran my 50-player game years ago I took advantage of mass-pings and had over five players as pre-replacements.

[Random Nurse]

What if there was a Town PR that can disable all Daytalk for whatever slot they target, for the rest if the Day, Day and Night, or permanently?

[Random Nurse]

What exactly makes it non-Normal?

I feel like most of my suggestions get shot down with little rationale behind it. What kind of bounds should I work within when trying to think up new Normal roles/modifiers?

[Random Nurse]

It's a bad idea to remove multiball from Large normal games, period. You notice this site isn't nearly as busy as it was back in 2013; you remove multiball from Large Normals and you're putting another nail in the coffin.

Soon I'll be modding a Large Normal that is multiball. These types of games aren't as uncommon as you think they are.

they can always be run in the theme queue, look how long T3's took to fill.

I believe a site-wide mass-ping by mod staff for Larges that have been in queue for over two months would help. I mass-pinged multiple times to get that Large filled.

When I ran my 50-player game years ago I took advantage of mass-pings and had over five players as pre-replacements.

I agree that pings are useful, but when you say mod staff do you mean like listmods? Because I thonk they shouldn't be pinging anyone, it should be done by the players or the game mod. IMO.

I was more meaning by one of the admins. More like an emergency maneuver to help get Large Normal games out of queue Hell aftter two months. The last one that just got out of queue Hell was in queue for over four months: not a good sign. If any admin can do a site-wide mass-ping I am certain that Large Normal would fill rather quickly.

[Random Nurse]

I've done at least one 50-player game here.

It's possible, possibly tougher now, but mass-pings are essential.

[Random Nurse]

Could we have a modifier created that removes all modifiers/PRs from a player at X-Day?

For example, a Bulletproof that loses its Bulletproof status at Day 4?

[Random Nurse]

You could create a Night 1+2+3 Bulletproof and it’d be the same

That's wordy tho.

[Random Nurse]

If one were to make a multiball Large Normal game, is it possible to make an Informed Bulletproof Goon for each faction, and that they know the alignment/role of each other? That would be very interesting.

Is it possible to make a rule in a Large Normal game that Scum cannot openly share in-thread information they are Informed of?

That would make a much spicier Multiball game, where both Scum factions have a tiny bit of information on who their rivals are, and can draw associations from which players defend the Informed Goons.

[Random Nurse]

Hm...

I could inform a Townie or two that two rival Scum members know each other (roles and alignments).

For insurance I could inform each Scumteam that members of Town know about two Informed rival Scum members knowing each other.

[Random Nurse]

Could we have a modifier created that removes all modifiers/PRs from a player at X-Day?

For example, a Bulletproof that loses its Bulletproof status at Day 4?

This sounds interesting.

Let's say I want a powerful PR at start of game, but I don't want that to affect late game, so I give it a time-limit, turning it into a VT on, say, Day 3. This would curb a LOT of things and help with fine-tuning balance.

Personally I think there aren't enough negative-utility or power-limiting modifiers in Mafia.

[Random Nurse]

Could we have a modifier created that removes all modifiers/PRs from a player at X-Day?

For example, a Bulletproof that loses its Bulletproof status at Day 4?

I'm thinking this is a version of Night Specific known as

Night 1-3

or

Night 1,2,3

or something similar

If it isn't a version of Night Specific, I'm not aware of the way it is different from Night Specific.

That being said, it might be worth keywording that variant of Night Specific under the name of

Time-Limited (Night 3)

? idk what else to call it

Time-limited would be perfect.

[Random Nurse]

Something as simple as a Time-limited modifier is what Mafia needs. No, don't try to go about it a different way, just add in the "Time-limited" modifier as another Normal option.

[Random Nurse]

Expanding on what T3 said, is it possible to make a Modifier that lets a PR target target more than one player at a time?

I want a Fruit Vendor that can target 3 players and give them each random fruit at night. Don't judge me.

OR, a PR that can Follow Player A and Motion Detect Player B.

[Random Nurse]

I feel a new modifier is merited because otherwise the title gets too wordy.

[Random Nurse]

Perhaps Split might be the modifier you're looking for?

I think so.

You can use two actions at Night but target different players, so a Split Doctor/Voyeur would protect Player A and Voyeur Player B the same Night.

Also, is there a more succinct way to make a Fruit Vendor that can give TWO different players a random fruit at night?

[Random Nurse]

Could that "Time-Limited" modifier potentially be named "Temporary" instead?

And then maybe there could be variations of it, like one that turns the player Vanilla, OR the player keeps the role name but still loses all active/passive powers.

[Random Nurse]

I think Inventor would be neat to make Normal.

Give a 1-Shot PR gift to someone else, I think that'd be cool, and I'm sure there's variants too.

[Random Nurse]

Also 2 more ideas.

1) You know how we have Loud and Announcing? We should have the mirror modifiers added to Normal games where the player being targeted have those modifieres, not the player doing the action. So instead of a Loud Town Tracker, you've got a "Listening" player that is made aware of what happened to them instead.


2) You know how we have Vengeful for Townies only? What if we make variants of Vengeful where, instead of killing a player, you turn their PR to 1-Shot instead or, if they have any modifiers, their modifiers are completely nullified but their keep the name. Stuff like that.

[Random Nurse]

I support:

Neighborhood Cop
Bulwark
Unnamed role 1(supposed to be a modifier)
[role]-Immune
Superstar
Gravedigger
Gunless
[role]-Disabler
Famous
Epicurean (personally i think the name is a bit too out there?)
Vulnerable


Unstoppable
Pressured
Gun-Loving
Gutless
Obsessive
Temporary

everything else is either non-normal IMO or too OP to see reasonable use.

What does Gravedigger do?

[Random Nurse]

Could there be a Cop that checks for Modifiers only?

[Random Nurse]

Out of the normal role proposals, I'm most hoping for Bulwark andThaumaturge.

I'd also want to see Role Guard, Impersonal, Vain, Pressured, Vulnerable, and Procrastinating.

Could there be a Cop that checks for Modifiers only?

I call that a Modifier Cop

Well, is the Modifier Cop already approved for Normal play? If not, it should be.

[Random Nurse]

Also, is it possible to have a Cop that sees both alignment AND role, or would that bee too powerful? It'd of course be balanced in Normal review.

[Random Nurse]

Also, is it possible to have a Cop that sees both alignment AND role, or would that bee too powerful? It'd of course be balanced in Normal review.

That's basically a

Combined Faction Cop Role Cop

.

Faction Cop

(which sees alignment but not role) could be added to the whitelist, if there is enough need and interest.

True, BUT... "Combined Faction Cop Role Cop" is wordy

and could be replaced

with one or two words.

[Random Nurse]

Holy shit that's a lot. I like.

Who sets about approving them?

[Random Nurse]

Could we please add a role that negates or removes a/all modifiers from their target?

Say a PR that can strip away "Bulletproof" status. Like a Scum "Interceptor" or "Hacker." Something that can manipulate to remove a beneficial modifier.

[Random Nurse]

In that list RH9 do you have the flip side of Loud/Announcing, where the person being targeted is made aware of the action or person targeting them?

[Random Nurse]

In that list RH9 do you have the flip side of Loud/Announcing, where the person being targeted is made aware of the action or person targeting them?

Listening - You are informed of the players who target you (self-watcher).
Careful - You are informed of the action types that target you (self-voyeur).

Thank you.

[Random Nurse]

Once thing I'd kind of like to see is the introduction of items to Normal games. I already know this will probably never happen, but as the game evolves and grows you all should start considering additional dimensions to the game.

Meaning, a player could have an item or not (it'd be in their role PM, and can only be used once). Yeah, could could just say player is "1-shot" this or that, but when it's labeled as an item there's a lot more you can do. Another player could steal the item, destroy it, inspect it, nullify it, etc.

Kind of like the Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG that added in Synchros, XYZ, Pendulums, and Link monsters, perhaps Mafia would benefit by seeking to slowly add in additional layers to Normal games. Have it evolve and grow.

[Random Nurse]

It sounds like you want to play a theme game

It sounds like you didn't read the gist of my post.

[Random Nurse]

This inflexibility is a weakness, not a strength.

In time I'll run large themed games.

[Random Nurse]

Could we please add a role that negates or removes a/all modifiers from their target?

Say a PR that can strip away "Bulletproof" status. Like a Scum "Interceptor" or "Hacker." Something that can manipulate to remove a beneficial modifier.

That sounds like TLich's Renegade.
Edit: Actually, I misread.

Your idea could work as a variation of Vanillaiser.

The closest role of mine to straight up removing a player's role modifiers is a Coach.

A Coach allows a player to act without interference by role modifiers if they want to.

I just feel that Scum should have a way to counter a strong modifier like BP, as much as I like playing as one. Like a role that can either remove/negate the modifier(s) entirely, or another variation that can turn it into a 1-shot instead for applicable modifiers.

This inflexibility is a weakness, not a strength.

In time I'll run large themed games.

I think that's the intention of Normal games.
Themes and Opens allow more flexibility but Normals generally tend to be more similar to 'regular' Mafia. (i.e. no modular mechanics like items)

That I do understand, yet another part of me wants to see evolution over time.

Perhaps 3 separate sections could be made? One that's strictly Normal, one that's strictly for themed games, and then a section in the middle where the BASE game is essentially strict Normal, but then built upon it are slight theme-like variations as decoration on that cake. For example I'd like to see a Large Normal with individual players earning $$$ each Night to buy actions or information, but I don't want to make a whole honking complicated Themed game, so like something much more in the middle.

Like make it a spectrum.

[Random Nurse]

I mean, yeah, there SHOULD be a main section that focuses solely on strict Normal play that doesn't scare away newbies.

I just think there should be like a second main section between Strict Normal and Fullblown Themed, and that it would have its own defining constraints as well.

[Random Nurse]

Another example would be Datisi's large themes.
(If my memory isn't messed up.)

pretty much, yeah. other than an occasional doublevoter or "if you target a hood you join the hood" role, my large themes are mostly just Spicy Normals, role-wise.

I'd like to see a Large Normal with individual players earning $$$ each Night to buy actions or information, but I don't want to make a whole honking complicated Themed game

oh hey this premise kinda sounds like my theme games.


while i love all kinds of spectrums, i don't think shoving a 3rd category in here would be helpful. the kinds of games that can be run in the theme queue are *already* a spectrum. like, if you want to run this game, you don't have to make it "more complicated" to have it run in the theme queue. look at fakegod's theme games, those are usually much simpler than your average normal.

like... what's with this aversion to modding a theme game? you don't have to make is super complicated.

My plan was to run a mini Normal and then a Large Normal to shake off the rust of game-modding, and then get into modding Large Themed games.

What I like are truly complicated games but I don't particularly want to do so through power but with information, which is why I like Informed statuses, Neighborhoods, various factions, etc. Like a very intricate, detail-oriented game with lots of subtlety.

[Random Nurse]

Well if Nurse agrees then I would love for you to review it.

I would be OK with it.

I do tend to have a lot of ideas that push the boundaries, and I like trying new ideas.

[Random Nurse]

I know it was stopped earlier, but is there any way these proposed roles could be trialed in Normal games? If they were in, say, specific Normal games and it didn't make much difference, could that hasten the approval of said roles/modifiers? Otherwise, without trialing, how exactly do they get whitelisted for Normal play?

[Random Nurse]

You could try running them in a theme game.

While true, would that hasten them being added into Normal games?