Open 163 (Jungle Republic)- Game Over before 835

[Nikanor]

But the question is this, DTM: Given the small amount of information a hohum lynch will provide, do you think he is the best lynch for today? If not, then whom?

[Shotty to the Body]

I think the point of his question was that it was rhetorical, we have a deadline in 4 days however and I don't see another reasonable lynch unless you can convince me on a peace lynch that fast. The whole ridiculous thing with saberwolf is scummy, especially since were about to lynch hohum and he's throwing threats around like he knows hohum is town.

[Nikanor]

@Shotty: If you think peacesells is scummy, why aren't you pushing for his lynch instead of hohum's?

[DTMaster]

@Nik

I'm only leaning towards a Hohum lynch because he blatantly lied about his meta. If we wanted to go forward in terms of information you would lean towards a Sabre or Peace lynch.

Sabre because he has a huge slew of character interactions and we can start isolating them based on Sabre's death. Peace comes in second for people interactions since it semi-clears Kill if he flips scum. In general though Scott is right about Peace's current (and weird) play though there are some odd things about Sabre. :<

@Kill/Sabre 612/613

You know if townie really hammered before deadline, I would be more suspect of the hammerer then anything. It's scummy to hammer pre-defense and before deadline.

Trying to twist this fact is really poor, and you are basically clearing the hammer if someone followed with the "fake hammer" after the "fake vote". Scum has a tendency to hammer, town doesn't have to and have the luxury to wait and scum hunt.

[Shotty to the Body]

I think Hohum is more scummy. If he was just a lurker he could've said he was busy or whatever and then contributed or at least gone V/LA or asked for replacement, but he lied about his activity in other games and then vanished again.

[Scott Brosius]

Is there an actual reason why you don't like the hohum wagon?

Because Lynch all Lurkers is stupid.

Usually, but almost half the game is anti-town. So I think its fine here. Also hohum was caught lying, you don't think that is scummy?

[Kill-kill]

@Kill/Sabre 612/613

You know if townie really hammered before deadline, I would be more suspect of the hammerer then anything. It's scummy to hammer pre-defense and before deadline.

Trying to twist this fact is really poor, and you are basically clearing the hammer if someone followed with the "fake hammer" after the "fake vote". Scum has a tendency to hammer, town doesn't have to and have the luxury to wait and scum hunt.

Bullshit. Scum would never hammer early, it would set them up for the lynch the next day. Scum do whatever they can to get townies to hammer.

I really don't think you understand the concept of a fake vote. It's more often seen in Lylo, a townie votes, scum try a quick-lynch, and then the townie says "Haha, my vote didn't actually count. I win." This is OBVIOUSLY what peace was doing, and chainsaw defense noted. Peace-DTM scumpair, anyone? Remember, he also chainsawed when the wagon was on cain.

2. Cain: Are you still satisfied with your vote on Lumi/Mastin? It's past the RVS now, so if you still like the vote why are you keeping it? What's your case on Lumi?

Could be subtle coaching

@Peace

Welcome to the game! Now can you outline your general read in the town (like a top 3 scum list).

Bam. More coaching (this was immediately after peaceshells replaced in)

Then changes vote from Cain to hohum, possibly realizing that a bus would not be necessary.


However, advocating against a hohum lynch= town points. Anyone else have thoughts on DTM?

[DTMaster]

@Kill-kill
1. Then if someone hammers, or in this case fake quick hammered, would you still support your theory? You are on a dangerous line because if

anyone quick votes like that it's still scummy.

. No one quick voted so no one else is scummy. You are advocating his play and condemning it at the same time with that justification. Timing is irrelevant if that strategy reveals scum.

2. Your two quotes cannot be interpreted as coaching. I'm not telling Cain/Peace on how to play this game, I'm asking them on their scum thoughts/town thoughts. Anyone who asked a question would be coaching under your definition.

3. I had issues with you all game, the fact that there are contradictions in your posts doesn't constitute of saying "chain-saw". I have a basis on my attack, just saying chain-saw without substantial proof is just scummy and makes you look like you are grasping for straws.

HoS: Kill-kill

Unvote

I change my mind, you are much more scummier at the moment.

[Kill-kill]

@Kill-kill
1. Then if someone hammers, or in this case fake quick hammered, would you still support your theory? You are on a dangerous line because if

anyone quick votes like that it's still scummy.

. No one quick voted so no one else is scummy. You are advocating his play and condemning it at the same time with that justification. Timing is irrelevant if that strategy reveals scum.

Can someone else explain this to him?

2. Your two quotes cannot be interpreted as coaching. I'm not telling Cain/Peace on how to play this game, I'm asking them on their scum thoughts/town thoughts. Anyone who asked a question would be coaching under your definition.

Again, misrepresenting the point. IF you and cain/peace are scum, it can be seen as you coaching a noobish liability (Cain), and trying to salvage it and coordinate with a new partner with whom you couldn't discuss pregame (peace).

3. I had issues with you all game, the fact that there are contradictions in your posts doesn't constitute of saying "chain-saw". I have a basis on my attack, just saying chain-saw without substantial proof is just scummy and makes you look like you are grasping for straws.

You really don't. Your attack is based on not understanding or intentionally misunderstanding what I said. I do disagree with his play. I was describing WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO DO.

[Nikanor]

Also hohum was caught lying, you don't think that is scummy?

Lynch all Liars is stupid as well. It is sometimes pro-town to lie. I probably lie more as town than I do as scum, simply because it is occasionally pro-town to do so.
Take now, for instance. I haven't looked into it myself, but I'll assume you're all telling the truth when you say that hohum has been making large posts in other games. Would it have been beneficial to the town for townhohum to tell the truth that he's been lurking? No. I've gone down that road myself as town, thinking that honesty is the correct path, and admitting to lurking. It distracted the town, and eventually contributed to my mislynch in lylo.
Another example from the same game: I was doctor, and waited to counterclaim the scum who falseclaimed doc on day one. On day three lylo, I eventually claimed doctor and said I was roleblocked on night one. A little while later, the cop claimed, and he claimed to have investigated me on night one with an innocent, and was roleblocked on night two. While we were both telling the truth, I got lynched because the scenario we were in was 'too convenient'. The cop in that should have lied in that situation to make his claim more believable.
Basically, story-telling aside, these are my reasons for thinking Lynch all Liars is stupid. Both town and scum have reason to lie. That's why lying is considered a nulltell in my books, and not the humongous scumtell some of you are trying to make it out to be.

However, advocating against a hohum lynch= town points. Anyone else have thoughts on DTM?

No, advocating against hohum lynch while his vote is on hohum = scum points.
Preview edit: It looks like DTM has realised this, which I think might be why he has unvoted.

P.S. Wall of Text FTW.

[Kill-kill]

No, advocating against hohum lynch while his vote is on hohum = scum points.
Preview edit: It looks like DTM has realised this, which I think might be why he has unvoted.

I missed this. That is enough for me.

Unvote

Vote DTM

[DTMaster]

@Kill

Read this:

1.

Bullshit. Scum would never hammer early, it would set them up for the lynch the next day. Scum do whatever they can to get townies to hammer.

I really don't think you understand the concept of a fake vote.

It's more often seen in Lylo, a townie votes, scum try a quick-lynch, and then the townie says "Haha, my vote didn't actually count. I win." This is OBVIOUSLY what peace was doing, and chainsaw defense noted.

Peace-DTM scumpair, anyone? Remember, he also chainsawed when the wagon was on cain.

The bolded part. You make no sense. It's a townie move but makes peace scummy.

2. Then prove that my questions are invalid and prove that

that my line of questioning is invalid

. I attacked both you and Cain with the same questioning. I asked Peace for a summary when he was done rereading since he replaced in.

Trying to force that I was coaching by asking for what their scum hunting results is poor reasoning.

3.

You really don't. Your attack is based on not understanding or intentionally misunderstanding what I said. I do disagree with his play. I was describing WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO DO.

You can't do this. This is called WIFOM reasoning because

you can only think you know what he does

for you are not Peace. The only way you can know this if

you are scum with Peace and knows what he is thinking

. This is impossible for you to do.

4. I didn't edit my post nor unvoted in a post after my reasoning. I cannot see how unvoting hohum when I think Kill is more scummy is scummy in itself when Nik just said it's townie to do this.

I also unvoted before Nik said anything about this.

Time for a quick PBPA:

Kill-Kill
ISO 1: His RVS vote. Note though the town had an issue with it because he RVS voted after town discussion was on the way. Odd play, neutral bordering on anti-town.
ISO 2: You can call IIoA but there is nothing new to contribute to the town. Basically Kill-kill summarized the town feeling, abet in odd terms.
ISO 3: He responded to Nik's accusation. I don't understand why you had to be prodded to give your town/scum reads when you just posted a summary of the town.
ISO 4: This brings a lot of trouble: You state the following at the time:

I think just inexperienced, period. He fake-claimed scum day one in the other game I am in, and just got lynched (vanilla townie). ThAdmiral was quite quiet in the one game I have played with him. NK'd day one, town doctor. Stated that he often was quiet when asked about "lurking".

Zazie, I commented when I had something to say. About all I have now is a feeling that out of hohum, nikanor, and DTM one is scum. Cain could either be scummy or just plain weird, and Toro seems to be tunnelling on

Cain, without solid reasons (I understand there are reasons, I am just saying I don't consider them enough to bring out the pitchforks)

What's interesting is you kept your RVS vote on cain, supported and condemned him at the same time but called hohum, Nik and myself as scum. So contradictory based on what you said and your actions, and you are really fence sitting on cain in this post.

ISO 4: There is a fallacy in this argument since it took place in the RVS, the original vote on Mastin that cain did. You are also supporting inexperience play here based on Cain's actions.

ISO 5: 1. You asked me how you should scum hunt through questioning.

2. Your reasoning on scummy cain was that

he didn't fake claim scum

.

Your vote and your reasoning do not make sense. You were the one to bring up his meta as being very noobish in your ISO 3, what is different from his last game to this game to suggest his current actions are scummy?

He didn't fake-claim scum.

3. Again you actively lurked. You saw that I addressed you specifically and answered in ISO 4. Note the time stamp difference between 3 and 4.

Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:56 pm and Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:24 pm were both answering the same post. I was pretty clear that I was talking to you both about this.

ISO 6:

1. Rhetorical question:

Cain has three posts. Do you really think questioning him would be effective?

questions the validity of: questioning.

2.

This suggests that he is still developing his style. If you are basing your argument on this point you still need to answer for the whole

inexperience part of his meta that you gave us

.

I did. I feel he is inexperienced scum. Do you have any reason to believe that he is not scum?

See the exchange on this and see his ISO above on his Cain analysis.

[DTMaster]

Whoops forgot:

Vote: Kill-kill

[DTMaster]

@Kill
To add.

I was the one who first voted with provided meta evidence.

Sabre and Has are both guilty on jumping on the Hohum wagon when they could not provide meta evidence to support Has' claim. How did I conviently jump on Hohum's bandwagon when I provided the means for the entire town to go and meta call Hohum?

Grasping for straws again.

[saberwolf]

@Kill
To add.

I was the one who first voted with provided meta evidence.

Sabre and Has are both guilty on jumping on the Hohum wagon when they could not provide meta evidence to support Has' claim. How did I conviently jump on Hohum's bandwagon when I provided the means for the entire town to go and meta call Hohum?

Grasping for straws again.

i have no problem with your vote on hohum, but I think my vote is justified. Mine wasn't about evidence [there were no posts to use as evidence], I don't use meta as a strategy tool, as I myself do my best to avoid any game patterns. I went on the BW because I was annoyed with how he could do absolutely nothing in this game and just fly under the radar. I also believed carrying him into the next day(s) would result in him being a liability.

I am noting the manner of which his BW is being broken up btw...the chances of all of you being town here who just unvoted is highly unlikely.

If this wagon is going to be derailed, I want to see good reason to shift my vote, but we need to do something soon..I will not allow scum to force us into a no lynch, when that is not in town's best interests. To be real honest though, I'm finding that the whole lot of us are getting mighty paranoid...the slightest defence of somebody or the smallest comment gets us all worked up and making assumptions about each other. Granted, a few of these assumptions could be right, but I find that we aren't fully scumhunting as we are just pointing fingers at whoever talks back at us.

As much as I can't believe I'm saying this, I'd like to see ZazieR pop up right about now with some more posts of his.

[DTMaster]

@Sabre

I'm addressing this comment:

Then [DTM] changes vote from Cain to hohum, possibly realizing that a bus would not be necessary.

However, advocating against a hohum lynch= town points.

Because it would imply that 1: I'm opportune scum and 2. I'm scummy even though I supported my hohum vote with evidence. I was the first person to actually use the google search bar since Has' case was just an accusation without meta evidence.

Still I find it odd that you still voted after Has, and not before when you went WTF at the emote hohum did. It reflects poorly on you with a bandwagon argument which raises some flags here.

[DTMaster]

Oh btw: I'll finish the rest of my PBPA tomorrow so stay tuned to part deux. Homework awayyy!

[saberwolf]

DTM: there was 2 minutes between cow and myself. I tend to leave my screen up in reply mode. I waited at first for a reply from hohum, and then realised i wasnt getting it, so i originally wrote a rant, thought better of it, deleted most of it, and then voted. I could of easily been the first one and then cow, but the order is not really relevent. However, I can see why you have the flag, and I acknowledge it. However, I don't see why I should change my vote as of right now. If we do keep hohum around, I demand either a replacement or a 150% better effort, or else I will do my hardest to make sure he goes day 2.

[Nikanor]

The only way you can know this if you are scum with Peace and knows what he is thinking . This is impossible for you to do.

Why is it impossible?

[DTMaster]

@Nik
You can only speculate at his actions, but not know about it. The only way to confirm this is through death with a player's alignment or if he/she admits it. The connotation of word knowing has a sense of confirmation.

I was probably unclear when "I said it was impossible for you to do", it should be read "it's impossible as a townie for you to do". As scum it's very possible to know.

@Sabre
Understandable then.

[Nikanor]

I was probably unclear when "I said it was impossible for you to do", it should be read "it's impossible as a townie for you to do". As scum it's very possible to know.

IGMEOY, DTM.

[Scott Brosius]

Unvote, Vote: hasdgfas

Lynch all Liars.

Then we find out he has been posting in other games and that cow's claims are true. Also these promises below turn out to be lies.

I'm not really posting in any of my games. I'm staying on top of my mod duties and those have to take precedence over games I'm playing it. This has been a horribly busy week for me personally IRL. I don't normally make a habbit of dropping games but in this case it couldn't be avoided.

I haven't asked to be replaced yet because I fully intend to start posting. It's friday now and things are starting to slow for me. I should have plenty of time this weekend to catch up.

Scum points to the cow for the flat out lies.

That was Friday. It's now Thursday (here at least). More lies about catching up/posting as it is now almost a week later.

The fact that he is lurking, lying, and voting someone else citing LaL all boils down to scum to me.

What is pro-town about these lies? What sort of scumhunting has he done since his participation ended on about page 4? Why do you keep defending him?

Mod: Prod or replace Hohum plz?

Searching for a replacement for hohum

-Fuzzy

[saberwolf]

hohum has been on for the past hour or so...I've seen him browsing the forums. I can't prove it, but at least I know he is still not making an effort.

[ThAdmiral]

I think the point of his question was that it was rhetorical, we have a deadline in 4 days however and I don't see another reasonable lynch unless you can convince me on a peace lynch that fast. The whole ridiculous thing with saberwolf is scummy, especially since were about to lynch hohum and

he's throwing threats around like he knows hohum is town.

This is a good point, but he wouldn't know he was town, just not of his faction.

[DTMaster]

@Nik
You did since you unvoted me the first time. Restating this is redundant. :< But I assume you accept my answer though, since you have no comments on it.

@Scott
His meta proves he was busy around the days before and after the 3rd. If you did the meta research you would know that. The issue is that Scott stop posting here well before this week of inactivity. There is a sense of half truths and half lies here.

@Town
I just noticed, almost a lot of the people who were addressed in Zazie's posts did not respond to them. Why?

Points at Kill, Sabre, Peace, Toro , hohum (then again he's not been posting in this game for the longest time) and maybe Nik

I responded back in my 516, but I can't seem to find everyone's response back.