Mini 857 Disney Movie Mafia 2 - The Classics (Roll Credits)

[Jazzmyn]

Vote: MonkeyMan

Because monkeys scare me.


P.S. It's good to see some familiar names after being away for several months - SC, Gorrad, Crazy, kmd - and hello also to those I've never played with before.

[Jazzmyn]

After reading the entirety of the Starbuck/Monkey exchange, it looks to me like a bit of a tempest in a teacup. My vote for Monkey was entirely random, and the votecount above indicates that he now has 5 votes, which is an awful lot for being only one real life day into a new game, so I am going to unvote.

Unvote

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Well, crap. I was out of town yesterday and hoped to catch up early this morning at the office, but this site is now blocked at my workplace. This is quite an annoyance, because I have always liked to use my break time and/or lunch time to read my ongoing games in order to stay up to date on the posts, even though

posting

from work to game sites is frowned upon, and I have very rarely done it. But now, the site is entirely blocked and I can't even read the games during the day. Crap.

Anyway, I am very surprised that Monkey decided to sit out the game "in protest" over the votes and attention on him. That strikes me as rather bizarre, and it certainly is not pro-town to unilaterally remove oneself from the game (i.e., without

actually

removing oneself from the game by asking to be replaced) just because one is affronted by accusations and/or votes in a Mafia game. This is not the Snugglenet.

As I said previously, I saw the whole Starbuck/Monkey exchange as a bit of a tempest in a teacup, but this extreme reaction (over-reaction) by Monkey really gives me pause.

Gorrad: I don't understand your vote on Brandi, as you seem to be voting for her for agreeing with Kmd, and yet you give Kmd a pass. That doesn't really make sense to me. Can you please explain the rationale behind that?

Kmd: In your post #62, you said that Monkey is probably scum, but you are currently voting for Gorrad. Is there more to Gorrad that you see that I may be missing?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I just realized that I failed to add this game to my "watched topics" and I got a bit sidetracked, but I will get up to speed on this game tonight and post more then.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Okay, I have finally managed to sneak in some time to catch up.

I can see where players are coming from with regard to Monkey. Some of his actions certainly do come across as scummy, especially the sitting out in protest bit. I really don’t care much for some of the insulting comments that have been bandied about, as I think the game can be played without them, but as I said earlier “this is not the snugglenet,” the game can get a bit rough sometimes. Players need to have a bit of a thick skin, but it doesn’t do any good to have things devolve into a slanging match of insults. That said, it is inappropriate to “sit out” the game in protest, because non-participation is anti-town. Monkey is back from his “protest” now, though, and I am just not getting a scum read on him. Rather, I get more of an impression of someone not dealing well with being dumbfounded and perhaps shocked at having so many votes on him so quickly on Day 1, that stemmed from his seemingly innocuous random vote.

Chamber, on the other hand, came in, dropped a fourth vote on Monkey and then quickly unvoted. Ever since then, he seems to be either defending or buddying up to Monkey, and voting for those who have criticized and voted for Monkey. He also casts votes without explanations and says he doesn’t give reasons along side votes. (I don’t even know what a “side vote” is but voting without reasons is not helpful to the town). He comes across strongly as scummy to me.

Regarding Gorrad, I’m still not sure that I understand his rationale for saying that it was "stupid" for KMD to call Gorrad’s actions scummy, and saying that it was "scummy" for Brandi to call Gorrad’s actions “odd” but maybe that's just me.

Zoneace is pretty much missing in action; he has made only 3 posts, none of them with any substance, so I cannot get any read on him one way or another.

In the result, I am going to

Vote: Chamber

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Gorrad is creeping further up my scummy scale.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

My scumdar is still pinging most loudly at Chamber and Gorrad. While I understand the arguments being made against Monkey, and while I recognize that perhaps my scumdar needs recalibration after several months away from the game of mafia, my gut is telling me he's town reacting badly rather than scum reacting badly. I could, of course, be wrong as I often am, but that's my read at present.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I'm Peter Pan, Town Conditional Watcher.

I'm a watcher as long as we don't lynch a townie.

What does the "conditional" part mean, Monkey?

Crazy, how did you manage to miss the obvious there?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Hey, all. It's a long holiday weekend here above the 49th parallel (Canadian Thanksgiving) so I've been busy with family stuff.

It appears that Starbuck self-voted when she thought that it would be a hammer, which is uber-scummy. It turns out that she was wrong about the vote count, but the action remains scummy, sufficiently so that I am going to:

Unvote
Vote: Starbuck

That's L-1.

[Jazzmyn]

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:24 pm

I would hammer myself to move the game along if I was scum. Since I'm not scum, I'm not going to hammer myself.

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:41 pm

Ok, you want role info, fine. I'm done trying to save myself, this town is doomed anyways.

Unvote

Vote: Starbuck

I'm frustrated and I've had enough.

I'm sorry, but saying that if you were scum you would hammer yourself, and then trying to hammer yourself 17 minutes later sure looks like scum to me.

There is nothing "opportunistic" about me voting you at L-2 after you purported to self-hammer in such a scummy fashion.

Also, while I do not post much, I am not "lurking" - I just don't get a lot of time to read and post due to the site being blocked at work, leaving only short periods of time in the evening for me to play during the week. This weekend was Thanksgiving in Canada and I was away for most of it, and I made a special effort to get online and caught up yesterday.

I remain suspicious of chamber and Gorrad, but will do a complete re-read when I can.

I see that I now have two more pages to catch up on since yesterday, which I will do tonight.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I've re-read the entire game and I am not getting very strong reads on very many players yet.

That said, I don't see Crazy's slip being a scumslip outing Starbuck as his scumpartner. It's too blatant and he's too experienced a player to make a mistake that would out himself and his scumpartner like that. I buy his explanation that he meant to write "claim" and instead wrote "fakeclaim".

Neopi definitely looks like either newb town or newb scum. Can't tell which yet, but I really dislike it when a replacement comes in and makes next to no comments on the game or players, and just adds a vote to the biggest wagon. One of the best things about replacements coming into a game is that everyone gets the benefit of a new perspective from someone who reads everything at once, rather than having been involved from the beginning, and it is often very useful to see what the game looks like through a new pair of eyes. When a replacement comes in and just tosses a vote out without really explaining it, and without giving any indication that they have even read the game, it sets off alarm bells. FoS: Neopi.

I'm still not convinced that Starbuck isn't scum who intended to shut down the day with her self-vote when she thought she was at L-1.

I still get a town-leaning read on Monkey, a scum-leaning read on Chamber, and a neutral-scum read on Gorrad.

Neutral on everyone else, Brandi, Crazy, Kmd, Semioldguy, StrangerCougar, and YankCane.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I thought that Monkey's question was a valid one, personally, and not that he was looking for anyone to "claim" as Starbuck alleged. Also, Starbuck, if you don't think that implying that Monkey is "dense" is insulting, I think you need to recalibrate your insult meter.

That said, I would consider Toy Story a "classic" Disney movie for varying definitions of "classic" and I don't put much stock in flavour arguments in any event.

I would still like to hear more from Neopi, but I like my vote where it is.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

StrangerCougar's post asking the mod if Kmd had been modkilled looks suspicious to me because it seems apparent that if LlamaFluff had modkilled a player, he would have said so explicitly, and StrangerCougar is an experienced enough player to know that. His post looks like he's trying to distance himself from the daykill by pretending he didn't know what it was. FoS: StrangerCougar

Revote: Starbuck

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I should add that I thought the kill could have happened because Kmd4390 was talking too much about his role.

Except that he really didn't say anything about his role. All he said was that his movie was post 1980 and had a classic feel to it. Hardly seems like a reason to be killed.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Exactly. StrangerCougar is saying that a daykiller killed Kmd because Kmd mentioned that his movie was post-1980, and that makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

SC has been acting a little strange the whole game, to be honest.

How so? Can you please elaborate on what you mean by that?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

His "village idiot" statement, his wagon hoping, his behavior here...

Good points, thanks. I hadn't really noted his wagon hopping so much until you mentioned it.

Also, I've re-read Kmd's posts in isolation and I think it's worth pointing out that Kmd seemed more suspicious of Gorrad than anyone else.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I hate being generalized. I only said "this is possible". I never said "this is the only way this could have happened".

I probably should have used the word "suggesting" rather than "saying". I didn't mean to generalize you. (Wouldn't that involve pinning stars on your chest? (/humour) )

The "This makes sense now" is supposed to imply that I've decided to drop that line of pursuit.

If that is what your post was "supposed to imply," why didn't you just come out and say what you meant?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I really do not understand the big drama and the lengths to which Monkey went to avoid posting flavour in support of his prior claim, especially since the flavour provided was not in any way surprising and I cannot see how it was worth digging himself even further into a hole (all the way to L-1) to protect against uttering the words, 'windows,' 'pixie dust' and 'happy.' That said, I can still see him as a townie feeling himself under relentless attack by scum, misguided town, or mistaken town, and digging in his heels and not wanting to give away any information that he thinks might help scum, even if it turns out that the information might not, in fact, benefit scum in any way. So, I'm not sure about Monkey. I'm still leaning town on him but I have to admit that this last go-round leaves me less certain of my read on him. The lengths to which he went to avoid it, the time it took for him to finally come out with it, the innocuousness of the flavour when he finally did set it out, and his comments about fake-claiming give me a great big question mark where I didn't have one before.

I also do not understand why semioldguy said that Monkey's failure to post flavour when he claimed amounted to only a "partial claim" and said that "partial claims are scummy" and yet semi did not apply the same rationale to Starbuck, who had also claimed her role and no flavour. I am further suspicious of the fact that when someone (YankCane, I think) mentioned this, semi posted almost immediately (within 3 minutes) that he had re-read Starbuck's posts and yes, lo and behold, she had not made a full claim either. Three minutes from the time of YankCane's post to semi's response and he read all of Starbuck's posts from her claim forward? Really? I doubt that. Then there's semi's gratuitous "I'm town" claim when nobody asked and it's not as though scum would claim any different.

I think it's fairly obvious that Neopi is inexperienced, erratic, and not very helpful so far. He could be either newbtown or newbscum, but I am growing more and more annoyed with his lack of input into the game. I don't really relish lynching newbs just for being newbs, because they could just as easily turn out to be newbpowerroles who are feeling overwhelmed and out of their depth as newbvanillas or newbscum, but if Neopi doesn't start participating more meaningfully and it comes to a deadline situation, I could change my mind on that.

More in a bit. I'm in the midst of doing laundry (ack) and the buzzer on the dryer just went off.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

While I appreciate your consideration, I don't see how hypothesizing about fakeclaiming is scummy. Being confirmed town is more likely to get you killed, especially if you have a power role. Leaving open the idea of fakeclaim, while leaving the possibility of a town lynch, also makes it less likely that scum will go after you.

I'm not sure I understand that. You have already claimed a town power role, so how does refusing to disclose supporting flavour make you "confirmed" any more than you already were? How does suggesting that you were fakeclaiming make you less likely to by lynched? (i.e., if you are a vanilla townie fakeclaiming, you deserve to be lynched on principle, as vanillas should never fakeclaim power roles, particularly on Day 1, and if you are a power role fakeclaiming, then there is a good chance that you are actually an anti-town role, perhaps an SK or something. So, how does raising the spectre of fakeclaiming help you instead of just disclosing the flavour that would support your claim? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand this.

@Jazzmyn - I claimed my flavor well before Monkey.

And? That has nothing to do with what I wrote. What is your point?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@Jazzmyn - I claimed my flavor well before Monkey.

In what way is this at all relevant to what he said?

SHE said in that big long post that I didn't claim my flavor, but if she had been around instead of active lurking, she would have seen that I did.

No, that's not what I said at all. Perhaps you could read that "big long post" again, for comprehension this time. And I have not been lurking, actively or otherwise, but nice try.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

If you tell people your whole strategy then it's not a strategy. Either you believe me or you don't.

You quoted my post but you didn't actually answer my questions, Monkey. Please do so.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I did re-read and I apologize for being wrong. I was catching up right when I first woke up this morning.

But you have been active lurking enough to get yourself prodded. You used the excuse of the site being down, but when you replied we had all been back to posting for quite a bit.

I accept the apology in your first paragraph, but I have to correct you on the second paragraph, because it is also untrue. I have not been lurking, I have not been prodded at all, and I did not say anything even remotely resembling that which you attribute to me. You really need to stop making stuff up.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

How does the tramp distract you?

^ That is the same question that I was about to ask.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

By three minutes you mean 13, check your facts before posting.

You're right. I was looking at page 26 when I wrote that, and YankCane had posted at 6:27 and you responded at 6:30, but it appears that you may have been responding to YankCane's prior post at 6:17 and not her 6:27 post. My apologies.

But speaking of "checking your facts before posting," your own post 649 (your 6:30 post on page 26) shows that you did not "check your facts before posting" when you called Monkey scummy for his "partial claim" (

your

definition not claiming flavour with the roleclaim) while you did no such thing when Starbuck made her own "partial claim" and you "thought she had".

Glass houses, stones, and all that.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

But speaking of "checking your facts before posting," your own post 649 (your 6:30 post on page 26) shows that you did not "check your facts before posting" when you called Monkey scummy for his "partial claim" (

your

definition not claiming flavour with the roleclaim) while you did no such thing when Starbuck made her own "partial claim" and you "thought she had".

If I thought she had claimed flavor, how could I find it scummy for something I didn't know?

Emphasis on the word "if".

As should be obvious, my point is that you had no townie reason whatsoever to think that Starbuck had claimed flavour when she clearly had not. Yet, according to you - and you alone - failure to claim flavour when roleclaiming is scummy. And you only felt it was scummy for Monkey not to have flavourclaimed when he roleclaimed but you said nothing of the sort when Starbuck roleclaimed without flavourclaiiming.

This does not compute.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I'm a him, by the way.

Oops, sorry about that. I do try to get genders right, and I have no idea why I got yours wrong. My apologies.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Personally, I'd like a Tramp-claim, since it seems like it's another player, but other people need to input on this.

I think it's premature to ask for yet another claim on Day 1. We already have several (and perhaps too many).

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I still want to know how the Tramp distracts Lady, though.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

i cant even find all the questions if you restate them for me i would be glad to oblige

Here are a couple:

How does the tramp distract you?

Why (flavor wise) can the Tramp only distract you after Day 2?

Just catching up a bit more, and will post more shortly. Any computer techies in the group? Just curious because I was at a conference from Thursday morning until now and I couldn't get in to my account to post from my hotel. I kept getting error messages telling me that my password was invalid. I tried to reset it several times using the "forgotten your password" thing, but each time, it would still tell me that the newly assigned password was invalid. I even tried to set up an alt account, but it wouldn't let me do that, either. I was using a laptop with IE and the hotel's wireless internet access, and when I tried to register an alt account, I could not view the letters/numbers/whatever it was that was required to be typed in, so I clicked on the link that says something like 'if you cannot view this, contact the Administrator here' and nothing happened. Sorry for the off topic content but it was very frustrating and I just wondered if anyone knows how to avoid this problem in the future when I am at a hotel with similar equipment, etc.

On the up side, I was able to

read

without being logged in, so I am not too far behind, but will read more thoroughly today, update my game notes, and post again shortly.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Well, I've read through the entire game again from the beginning, and I am not persuaded by the case against Monkey. I still feel that he is town and that his multiple wagons during this day have been scum driven. I recognize that he has said and done some things that are scummy, but if he is a townie, those things are, in my view, understandable in light of the onslaught to which he has been subjected since the RVS.

Initially, I thought that both Monkey and Starbuck were townies just getting into a row, a couple of townies going at it in a "tempest in a teacup" scenario. Then I started to think that one of them is scum and the other town. Then I became convinced that Starbuck is scum, goading Monkey because it became apparent that he could be easily goaded into saying things that could easily be construed as scummy. Then, things seemed to settle down a bit between the two of them for a while, but it didn't take long before they were back at it again, with Starbuck leading the way, and semioldguy there to pick up the mantle in support of Starbuck, when she backed off a bit from Monkey for a while. But then Starbuck couldn't resist going after Monkey yet again once it looked like she had some support from semioldguy, who was able to persuade a few other players along the way. Something just smells wrong about this to me. It looks like a set up by which Starbuck is trying to distance herself from the Monkey wagon that she started, while semioldguy rallies support for the wagon, but she's still actively goading him and trying to garner more support for the Monkey wagon even though she isn't on it herself.

So, I like my vote where it is, and I would encourage others to move their votes before the deadline to vote for Starbuck over Monkey. I should not have to remind anyone that Monkey has claimed a town power role, and Starbuck has claimed vanilla. If I'm wrong about Starbuck, at least we only lose a vanilla townie and not a potential power role in Monkey.

If we do nothing before the deadline, Monkey will be lynched. I think we would be best served by lynching the claimed vanilla over the claimed power role.

Neopi has also come across as scummy, in my view, but he is a newb and he has also claimed a power role. I don't know whether to believe him or not, frankly, as his posts are, in my view, somewhat disjointed and his level of activity leaves a lot to be desired, but in the short time available to us before the deadline, I would rather put him aside for the moment and deal with him tomorrow if necessary. He seems to have answered the questions asked of him, and I don't know enough about game set ups to know whether what he claims is viable or not. Those with moderating experience and game design experience can hopefully elaborate on that.

Bottom line, I am leaving my vote where it is and would urge those on the Monkey wagon to switch to the Starbuck wagon. Starbuck has claimed vanilla; Monkey has claimed a power role that sounds believable, to me at least. We would be better off losing a vanilla than a power role.


Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I really don't understand why there were still people on Monkey's train at the end of yesterday. I know I threw out the theory of him possibly being the Tramp, but his flavor definitely mirrored his role, no matter how scummy I found him to be acting.

And yet, there you were, still going at Monkey relentlessly and, in my view, encouraging others to jump on his wagon while you were not on it yourself.

With a claim that, it now seems apparent that Neopi had no way of being able to reliably back up without other known info, I don't think it entirely unreasonable for fellow scum to be able to get on her wagon in such a case.

For a similar reason I am disappointed that our day-killer chose to kill Neopi before Neopi was even given the chance to claim results from last night.

Agreed, on both counts. I am inclined to think that it is quite likely that there was scum on Neopi's wagon in the circumstances, and I think that the most logical conclusion to draw from the quick daykill without any opportunity for most players to even check into the thread, let alone any opportunity to try to get information out of Neopi, is that the daykiller is not pro-town.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I'd like to see also.

This will probably sound strange, but so would I, actually. I know that I'm not scum, but I haven't picked up any scum vibes from YankCane either, so I am curious about what Gorrad sees that I haven't seen.

I'm assuming that no scum were on Neopi's wagon, since I can't see scum putting their godfather at risk.

I wouldn't make that assumption. I think there is a very good chance that there was scum on the Neopi wagon.

SC's hammer of Monkey is suspicous, at the same time however, Monkey did look scummy, so I don't know what to make of that.

I would agree that it is potentially suspicious, but it is important to put one's views out there, particularly at deadline, and StrangerCougar did that, while many stayed away as the deadline drew near, and his vote on chamber was not going anywhere at that point. Maybe he set it up to switch over to Monkey at the end for precisely that reason in an effort to avoid a Neopi lynch, or maybe he genuinely thought that Monkey was the best lynch for the day. Well laid plan or legitimate decision making? Shall I drink the wine in front of me... *sigh*

Gorrad, why do you think there was scum on the Starbuck wagon?

I second this question, and add another question to Gorrad: why are you assuming that Starbuck is town? Yes, I saw your response to a prior related question, but you kind of skirted the issue. You originally said, "it's an old rule that on any town wagon, there will be at least one scum. Starbuck's wagon was one shy of MM's." You are, quite clearly, asserting that Starbuck is town with that post, but why? In your response to a question about that, you said that Starbuck "could have been bussing the GF" but that you were "assuming the contrary". Again, why are making those assumptions? It appears quite likely that we have a third party daykiller with its own agenda, after all.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Well, a switch from a scum wagon to a town wagon always is scummy, but having chamber as a median point makes it more suspicious to me because it makes it look less obvious.

That's a very good point, actually, and one that I had not thought of.

As I said, I don't want to answer unless it's important.

I'll assume that you have reason to believe that it is better not to spell it out at the moment, and I'm entirely okay with that, but if you have specific suspicions that can be presented without giving anything away, then please do.

@Brandi
You weren't voting yesterday. Why not? Who was your top suspect yesterday?

I was very M.I.A. for a long while, and didn't really support any of the major wagons. I did have a vote placed before KMD was "erased" though. (Noting in case you thought I wasn't voting AT ALL yesterday)

Well, a review of the thread shows that it is true that you placed a vote yesterday, but your participation in the game has been pretty sporadic. I realize that real life takes priority and all, but while you were here responding to semioldguy's question (quoted above), you didn't really answer it. Why is that?

With all my big Day 1 suspects dead, I need to probe a little more, and I'm looking most at YankCane right now for misrepresenting what was essentially my hammer vote.

What was the misrepresentation?

Also, does this mean that you concede that Crazy was correct in pointing out that your stated reason for jumping from Neopi's wagon to chamber before jumping back onto Monkey's wagon was ridiculous? Because it sure seems like it now that I go back and read it again. You said that you voted chamber solely because he said, "go play normals" to Starbuck. Crazy's right - that's ridiculous.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

SC/Gorrad/anyone else on the Starbuck wagon - What happened to me and Starbuck obviously being scum together? Obviously I never approved of the wagon, but I'm curious to why it dissipated.

I was on the Starbuck wagon, and I still find her scummy, personally. I did not, however, think that you were scum with her for the so called "fakeclaim slip" as I said at the time, as I do not think that you would make that kind of a slip and you had previously posted something to the effect of, "If that's a fakeclaim, it's the most brilliant fakeclaim ever" (paraphrasing from memory without looking it up) so I could see how you could accidentally say "fakeclaim" in place of "claim" in your subsequent post in the circumstances.

Crazy, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that your only reason for thinking Starbuck is town is that she claimed Buzz Lightyear as her role. Have you thought about that further since Neopi flipped scum with the role of Lady from Lady & the Tramp? I mean, it seems to me that you're basing your entire read on Starbuck on the fact that she claimed Buzz Lightyear, but by that reasoning, Lady from Lady & the Tramp should also have been a vanilla role, and we now know that it was not.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

But I could still very well be a Vanilla role.

Emphasis on the word "could". But I doubt it.

Also, let's not forget that I was not part of that crew that helped get Monkey lynched.

*Jaw drops* You were instrumental in getting Monkey lynched.

I definitely saw where his flavor made sense and immediately backed off.

No, you didn't. You unvoted him after he claimed (after a few others did so), you subsequently revoted him, and still later you unvoted him again, but you continued to pound at him relentlessly even when you didn't have your vote on him, right up to his lynching.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

That is why I think Starbuck is town.

If Neopi had claimed vanilla, I probably wouldn't have lynched him but I would have thought the claim was merely "okay." However, a Buzz-vanilla-claim is exceptional.

This does not make sense to me. You seem to be basing your entire read on Starbuck solely on the fact that she claimed vanilla Buzz Lightyear because Buzz Lightyear is an obvious (to you) vanilla role. But Lady from Lady & the Tramp is an equally "obvious" vanilla role. I mean, come on, cute little dog with zero connotations that I can think of that could be viewed as potentially evil.

And yet, Lady was scum.

So, I am not following your train of thought here, and I do not understand why you think that claiming vanilla Buzz Lightyear is a "brilliant" claim, and I do not understand why you accept it at face value.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I still find Starbuck scummier than anyone else in the game at this point. I will post a case for consideration by others and will welcome any and all input from others that either supports or refutes it. However, that is going to have to wait until tomorrow, perhaps even Sunday, as my daughter is ill with the flu (not H1N1, but it's still very unpleasant for her) so she needs my attention at the moment.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I hope your daughter feels better. They are about to shut down the DoD school here at my base because all the kids are coming down with the flu, strep throat, etc.

Thanks. My daughter is starting to improve, albeit slowly. Schools here are also rife with the flu currently (which is where my daughter caught it) but so far none have been shut down in my area.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I apologize for the delay in posting a case on Starbuck. I thought that I might be able to complete it by tonight but I haven't been able to get online for very long due to my daughter's illness. However, I will do my best to finish it tomorrow evening.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@Jazz - Am I seriously the only one you find suspicious?

Not by a long shot. I am suspicious of almost everyone, frankly. It's just that you're the

most

suspicious to me. I set out much of my reasoning for that on Day 1, and my suspicion of you has grown, not waned, on Day 2.

My suspicions on most others are much less well-defined and not cohesive enough for me to make an actual case of. For the most part, they are more like little pieces here and there that do not yet add up to a sufficient enough whole for me to decide whether they are truly scummy or not. That said, I will set them all out in due course, right or wrong.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

No use just sitting there, so I'm going to ask everybody some questions: Of those not really participating much, who do you think is scummiest? Is it related to the activity level? If not, why?

Semioldguy, for reasons related to Day 1 and the Monkey lynch, not related to activity level. (Although he might not now be considered part of "those not participating much" since he's answered his prod today).

Brandi hasn't contributed a lot overall, but I haven't seen anything from her that strikes me as inherently scummy. (Therefore, suspicion related to activity level).

Similarly, YankCane hasn't contributed a lot overall, but I haven't seen anything from him that strikes me as inherently scummy. Although his recent comment about not posting until others chime in does set off an alarm bell. (Therefore, suspicion related mostly but not solely to activity level).

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

And, SC, why ask only about those who are not among the most active? Scum is found among the most active just as often as among the least active, at least in my experience.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

It got to the point where the active players were in the minority in my mindset and I wanted to gauge if anybody was suspicious for their activity level. I don't like Gorrad right now and he was among those inactive.

Fair enough, I suppose. But I don't think that Gorrad is scum and, as I said previously, scum is just as often found among the most active players as among the least active players so I'm not convinced that this was a valid reason for you to sow suspicion

solely

upon the less active players while ignoring the more active players, who are just as likely to be scum.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Hello, all

First, my apologies to my fellow players for my unexpected absence. A very serious (quite literally, life or death) family crisis arose that made it impossible for me to keep up or post for several days but I really wanted to stay in the game if at all possible because I really enjoy these games, and I am loath to ever replace out.

As of tonight, the situation has stabilized sufficiently that I was able to confirm to the game moderator that I will be able to continue. I anticipate being able to catch up and jump back in with both feet within the next two days, and be back in full swing by the weekend.

Second, I want to publicly thank the game moderator for his understanding of the situation, and to thank him for his indulgence in allowing me to stay in the game. It is very much appreciated.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@Starbuck: I'm very sorry to read of your loss, and wish you and your family all the best.

@Everyone else: I will be fully caught up tonight and will post my thoughts, comments, answers to questions, and suspicions then.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

@ Kubla Khan and curiouskarmadog: welcome and thanks for subbing in. It is good to have a full complement of players.

@ Everyone: following is my current train of thought with my catch up on the thread.

As I've said previously, I am most suspicious of Starbuck and have been since Day 1. Here's the short version:

Starbuck voted Monkey with her very first post for a spurious reason. It looked like a random vote at first, which would have been entirely okay, and completely acceptable, but Starbuck dug her heels in and never did admit that it was random and insisted that it was legit somehow even though it clearly was not. Thus began a relentless campaign of Starbuck v. Monkey, which never really ended until Monkey's lynch at the deadline. Even though Starbuck got off of the Monkey wagon when he claimed his power role, she got back on it later, and then jumped off again before he was lynched, but she continued to go after him - relentlessly - without ever letting up, even while she purported to believe his claim. It just doesn't add up.

Also, as previously mentioned, Starbuck attempted to self-hammer despite her vanilla townie claim shortly after saying that she would only do so if she was scum. As it turns out, she was wrong about the number of votes required for a lynch, but the fact remains that by her own admission, she thought that she was self-hammering, which she says she would only do as scum. (And in my view, she's right, only scum would do that). After her self-hammer attempt was unsuccessful, backtracking ensued.

Starbuck also seems to have a habit of throwing votes or FoSes at anyone and everyone who calls anything she says or does into question. This might be more of a null tell than a scum tell, but it's worth looking at, I think, because it seems somewhat frantic on Starbuck's behalf and I don't think anyone but scum would be so frantic. (Long list of individual posts omitted here)

Then she started Day 2 saying that she didn't understand why others were on the Monkey wagon that she herself had started and that she has encouraged right up to the end even when she wasn't on the wagon herself. It strikes me as very scummy for a player to encourage a bandwagon right up to lynching, even though that player is not even on the very wagon that she's encouraging, and then purport the next day to cast suspicion at those who were on the wagon that she encouraged but had personally leapt from. In other words, on Day 2, Starbuck was accusing those on Monkey's wagon of being scummy even though it was she who started the Monkey wagon on Day 1 and she who continued to encourage the Monkey wagon right up until Monkey was lynched, even though Starbuck had removed herself from the wagon shortly before his demise.

Bottom line: Starbuck never stopped poking at Monkey. Quite literally until her very last posts of Day 1, even though she purported to believe his town power role claim, and even though she jumped off, back on, and back off his wagon, she was still gunning for him up until the very end of Day 1.

And then, what did she do at the opening of Day 2? She acted as though nobody should have been on the Monkey wagon that she started, fed constantly, nurtured for 30 pages, and then distanced herself from at the end of Day 1.

I really don't understand why there were still people on Monkey's train at the end of yesterday. I know I threw out the theory of him possibly being the Tramp, but his flavor definitely mirrored his role, no matter how scummy I found him to be acting.

What bothers me are those that didn't switch off of Monkey to Neopi with the fact that his claim made sense.

This just doesn't strike me as credible at all.

More to follow.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

It got to the point where the active players were in the minority in my mindset and I wanted to gauge if anybody was suspicious for their activity level. I don't like Gorrad right now and he was among those inactive.

Fair enough, I suppose. But I don't think that Gorrad is scum and, as I said previously, scum is just as often found among the most active players as among the least active players so I'm not convinced that this was a valid reason for you to sow suspicion

solely

upon the less active players while ignoring the more active players, who are just as likely to be scum.

Where did I discount the possibility that there are scum in the active players?

I never said that you discounted the possibility that there is scum among the active players, StrangerCougar. Strawman argument duly noted, though.

My question was why were you sowing suspicion

solely

upon the less active players even though scum is just as likely to be found among the most active players?

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

And it's hard for me to imagine Starbuck claiming Buzz - Vanilla Townie as scum.

Safe claim provided by LlamaFluff, the GM, perhaps?

(Just thinking out loud).

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Care to show some evidence of this?

Sure. Start here

So you can say this, but won't provide the evidence.

You have over 200 posts in this game. The link above is to them, where anyone can read them to see the evidence. It is so voluminous that posting them all individually is far too onerous a task and it is actually easier to just read the entire body of evidence in one place.

I'll give you a history of my votes & FOS's in chronological order

In addition to those, you also accused Crazy of being scum (your 72).

You also went after Gorrad for "voting Brandi for a ridiculous reason" and trying to "justify his lurking by saying it's part of his playstyle" even though you said you had played with him before and hadn't seen "this playstyle as he puts it" (your 73).

You also FoS'd semioldguy (your 204).

So, I think it's fair to say that you have gone after

almost

everyone who has who has voted for you, commented negatively on your play or directed suspicion at you (even if inadvertently as in the case of Crazy): MonkeyMan, Chamber, me, Brandi, Gorrad, and Crazy although, interestingly enough, not YankCane.

Yes, I did push for his lynch, but I didn't push for it after he claimed the flavor.

Also, I ask again for evidence of my encouragement of the Monkey lynch "throughout all of Day 1" as you accuse me of.

You continued to encourage a Monkey lynch even after his flavour claim. Evidence:
After Monkey claimed his flavour:
Your post 149: you unvote Monkey "for now" - i.e. leaving it open for further re-voting.
Your post 161: you say that you think Monkey "slipped" when he commented on Neopi's role claim - i.e. suggesting that he is scum.
Your post 162: you suggest that Monkey is the Tramp - i.e. suggesting that he is scum since he had claimed the role of Peter Pan.
Your post 163: you again suggest that Monkey is the Tramp - i.e. suggesting that he is scum since he had claimed the role of Peter Pan.
Your post 165: you say that it is a good possibility that Monkey's claim is fake.
Your post 170: you say that you are "either for [lynching] Monkey or Neopi" - i.e. again suggesting that he is scum and that you support his lynch.
Your post 173: you say that there are decent cases against Monkey and criticize him for not thinking that they are decent - i.e. suggesting that he is scum.

Your last posts on Day 1 were your posts 174 and 175, both with more back and forth with Monkey.

I think that's pretty good evidence that you were still encouraging a Monkey lynch even after you unvoted him, and right up until your last posts of Day 1.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I'm having a hard time comprehending your both attacking me for directing suspicion solely on the inactives and agreeing with my implication that I know there could be scum in the actives.

I wasn't attacking you. I was just asking why you asked the question the way you did, and you later explained it but I think I might have misunderstood your explanation. My latter post that you quoted was me addressing that part of your post was a bit of a strawman. But I'll chalk it up to misinterpretation on my part, your part, or both.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Jazzmyn

- According to your vote, it was Starbuck's attempted self-hammer which earned your vote on her. Which you carried out until the end of the game. I'd try to analyze more, but you gave a very detailed explanation (post 887) about exactly what your reasons were for keeping your vote where it was.

Do you still think that Starbuck is the scummiest player in the game? If so, why aren't you currently voting for her?

Yes, I still currently think that Starbuck is the scummiest player in the game. I didn't vote initially because a real life matter kept me from being able to keep up to date with the game for several days and I wasn't sure if I was going to have to replace out, thus I couldn't post my case on her, plus I am not one to throw a lot of votes around even at the best of times.

After making my case on her, I thought I would wait until she responded to it, and now she has, but I find her response lacking and quite disingenuous. I intended to vote for her at the end of my post #1103, but I see that I neglected to do so. I will rectify that now:

Vote: Starbuck

In other news, I still have to do a thorough read of YankCane, and I have a few other things to catch up on here, but the other game that I'm playing currently is in LyLo (I think) so I have to tend to that first. I'll be back tomorrow.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Wow, did you really just try to say that I don't know how to read people in iso when you can't even link to it correctly?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I said nothing of the sort.

The link is messed up, though, for some reason. I assume it is a glitch in the system because when I look at your iso, and cut and paste the url from the top of my web browser it still comes up as: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1100 but that doesn't match up to the actual link. I have no idea why. So, since I can't link it, I would encourage players to scroll down to the iso thing at the bottom of the page and look up the post numbers cited.

Seriously get off your high horse and get over yourself.

What are you talking about, and why are you trying to make this personal?

I want you to provide SPECIFIC EVIDENCE from Day 1 about this. This proves to me that you are refusing to do so. Refusal to provide information and specific evidence is scummy. You are beating around the bush and flailing horribly.

I disagree. The majority of your 200+ posts bear out what I am saying, and anyone who has read the thread can see quite readily that this is so. I am not about to try to post links to all of your posts when it is much easier to just read them in iso for the full picture. If you are seriously trying to suggest that you were not all over Monkey on Day 1 - before, during and after his claim - then I think you're going to have a severe credibility problem.

I guess I need to start using sarcasm tags if you seriously believe that this was an accusation.

It sure didn't look like sarcasm to me. Others' mileage may vary.

What are you trying to say here? This is most definitely a misrep.

It is nothing of the sort. In fact, it appears that either you are feeling very stressed by my accusations or you have a problem with reading for comprehension or you are deliberately misrepresenting what I wrote.

So where was I trying to justify his lurking? No where. Why? BECAUSE I WASN'T JUSTIFYING HIS LURKING.

News flash. I did not accuse you of justifying his lurking. I said that you went after him for the quoted reasons: "voting Brandi for a ridiculous reason" and trying to "justify his lurking..." There is no misrepresentation here at all. I cited the reasons for which you were criticizing Gorrad, and I quoted them accurately.

Quit trying to cut and paste things to make yourself look better. Why? Because it's scummy.

I did no such thing. Are you skim reading and making errors as a result or are you deliberately misrepresenting things? There have been at least a few occasions in this game where you have used your own errors as the basis for accusing others of things that they had not done, to point suspicion at them where it was not warranted. I don't know whether this is due to skim-reading, lack of comprehension, or deliberate misrepresentation, but this isn't the first time you've done it and that adds to my suspicion of you.

Ok, and your point is?

My point is as set out in my prior post: that you have gone after almost everyone who ever voted for you, commented negatively on your play or directed suspicion at you (except YankCane).

Rather than the 1 billion as you have been trying to elude to?

If I've told you once, I've told you a million times, exaggeration is scummy. [/obvious tag]

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Edit: Oops, I messed up that last quote tag. It should say "Starbuck wrote:", not "Jazzmyn wrote:"

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

I guess you would feel that way about this since you have such a weak case on me to begin with.

Saying that you will unvote someone "for now" is, in my view, leaving open the door to re-vote him later, and your posts after Monkey's flavour claim belie your Day 2 claim that you believed him and backed off of him as soon as he claimed his flavour.

A watcher/tracker combo, especially after what Neopi had claimed could have definitely been feasible.

The point is that you suggested he "slipped" - which is suggesting that he is scum.

And how was I suggesting he was scum since he claimed Peter Pan? I fail to see this. You are grasping at straws.

Suggesting that he was the Tramp when he had claimed Peter Pan is suggesting that he was lying about his role, thus suggesting that he was scum.

So explain to me how I was "suggesting he was scum in this post since he claimed Peter Pan" here because I seriously don't see it.

I made a typo and wrote 163 there when I meant 164. In 164, you suggested that he was scum by suggesting that he was making up his role and making up his flavour.

It WAS a good possibility at the time. It's very easy for you to say (now that Monkey flipped town) that it wasn't, but at the time, when we didn't know his alignment, it was a very good possibility.

You seem to be forgetting that the point is that immediately at the beginning of Day 2, you came out saying that you believed Monkey from the moment he claimed his flavour, and you were criticizing everyone who was on the Monkey wagon. As set out previously, all of the foregoing posts that I have cited are pretty compelling evidence that you were not telling the truth.

I said I'm for either, but the fact that I stated that "I definitely think there's a lot that Neopi isn't telling us" should tell you right there that I was more for a Neopi lynch than Monkey.

Again, the point is that you claimed that as soon as Monkey claimed his flavour, you believed him and that nobody should have been on his wagon, but you yourself were open to a Day 1 Monkey lynch even after he had claimed both his role and his flavour.

He jumped all over me earlier in the game about me being gone for the weekend and having real life go on, but the minute that he had something going on and someone gave him a hard time about it, he threw a temper tantrum. This is why I stated what I stated about him being hypocritical because HE WAS.

Again, you miss the point. The point is that you were still going at him with your last posts of Day 1 despite your claim to have believed him and despite your claim to have backed off of him, and despite your Day 2 criticism of anyone who was on his wagon at the end of Day 1. Your last 2 posts were cited to show that they were, in fact, your last posts of Day 1.

Maybe if you were around more often, you would have seen this when it happened.

I did see it when it happened, and as I said, your last 2 posts of the day were included to show that they were, in fact, your last posts of the day, since that was relevant to my observation that you kept going at him right up until the end of the day.

As for your suggestion that I have not been around, it's neither accurate nor fair, and when I

was

away, it was for legitimate reason and I would much, much rather have been here than where I was.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

It is not my place to reveal something about another player's role, but there are only a couple of hours until deadline, and if I say nothing, I think that a town power role is going to be lynched, without being able to do anything to save himself since he's posted that he's V/LA until Sunday.

I think that Gorrad is a town power role. This is because I got an "Event" message from the GM at the beginning of Day 2 about something that occurred during Night 1, and then Gorrad hinted at the beginning of Day 2 that it was his doing.

I don't know what Gorrad's actual role is, but if it was him who was responsible for the Night 1 Event that I was informed of by the GM, then I take from the nature of the Event that he is a PR.

If those of you voting him unvote him, he can probably be protected overnight. If you don't, then I think we will have given the scum a PR death unnecessarily.

I realize that some of you think I'm scummy and think that Gorrad and I are scum partners because of a "connection" between us. I also realize that posting this to try to save him may add to that impression, but it is entirely wrong. You can see that I was suspicious of Gorrad on Day 1, and not on Day 2. This is because of the Event that occurred on Night 1. It is that Event that changed my mind about him, and that Event is the "connection" that you see between us.

The fact is that I'm town, and I have good reason to believe that Gorrad is a town PR, so I want to try to save him because it appears that he won't be here to try to save himself.

I realize, as I said at the outset, that it is not my place to reveal something about another player's role, but in these unusual circumstances, I feel I have no choice. If I do nothing, Gorrad will be lynched and when he flips PR, I would be criticized tomorrow for doing nothing to prevent his lynch. If I do something, which I am doing, I paint a great big target on my own back if you don't believe me and think I'm scum trying to save a scum-partner.

So, I'm kind of in a damned if I do and damned if I don't situation, but I think that it is best for the town if I try to save a PR, even if it exposes me to suspicion.

I urge those of you voting for Gorrad to unvote him, and place a vote elsewhere. If you believe me, you shouldn't vote for me. If you don't believe me, then I guess you should either vote for me or leave your vote on Gorrad, but both of the latter choices will still be wrong.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Sorry, all. As I previously mentioned, I've been dealing with a serious family medical issue, which stabilized somewhat 10 or 12 days ago sufficiently enough that I could continue to play the game. But things went drastically south over the past 2 days and, despite all that medical technology has been able to do, my brother died today.

So, I will not be around for the next several days. Sunday at the earliest, more realistically, Monday.

I have notified the game moderator (who has more detailed information about all of this from our previous correspondence) and while I would very much like to continue, I will take no issue with and no offence to being replaced if the GM thinks that it would be too long an absence and/or that it would be detrimental to the game.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

EBWOP: Cross post, sorry.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Thanks to all, especially the game moderator, for your patience and for letting me stay in the game. My brother's funeral was yesterday (Saturday) and I'm back home now. Still reeling somewhat, but I'm back.

@Jazzmyn
If you were set on trying to save Gorrad at the end of yesterday, why didn't you move your vote to StrangerCoug or curiouskarmadog to make not lynching him a greater possibility?

I guess I just didn't think about that, as I didn't have a case on either StrangerCougar or curiouskarmadog, and neither of them seemed particularly scummy to me. My concern was to try to stop the lynch of a power role but I didn't have much time to do so, and I didn't really know what to do about claiming on behalf of someone else, as such a situation had never arisen for me before.

@Jazzmyn: I'll echo semioldguy's question from 1159. You

really

didn't give us time to re-evaluate the deadline lynch with your last minute info.

Gorrad posted on Friday (his #1143) that he would be V/LA until Sunday. I didn't see his post until Saturday when I posted (my #1149). I had been extremely busy with family matters in the couple of days before that and just didn't have any choice about the timing. By the time I saw Gorrad's V/LA post on Saturday, there were only a couple of hours left.

@Jazzmyn
please answer mine and Kahn's question along with your claim. Also, why didn't you make that post at the end of the day any earlier? Since apparently you've known for a long time, withholding that until it is essentially too late makes little sense to me. You could have given the town more than a mere two hours I'd think.

See above. I had no choice about the timing.

No, we wait. Now I'm not suggesting in any way that Jazzmyn is lying about her home circumstances, quite the opposite actually: My thoughts and prayers go out to Jazzmyn and her family (thinking back she had some sick family in the last game I played with her, too).

Thanks for the thoughts and prayers, which are much appreciated. I don't remember specifically the last game you and I played together, but I'm guessing it might have been over a year ago when my niece was unexpectedly hospitalized and I was taking care of her two children for a bit, as I seem to recall that interfering in a game here some time in 2008, and I think it resulted in me being lynched and the scum winning. I don't recall the specific game at the moment, though. There was also another death in my family last year on December 1, one day off from my brother's death this year on December 2; that wasn't a close family member, but rather a cousin on the west coast. Then in May of this year, my daughter had to have emergency surgery, with additional surgery to follow, and I replaced out of all my games at that time as a result. Her follow up surgery didn't take place until September, by which time my brother had been admitted to hospital in August, where he remained (except for about a week) until his death last week. So, it's been a pretty horrible year and a half as far as medical problems among family is concerned.

Blame SensFan for my paranoia.

I guess I can post a link to my brother's obituary, if necessary, but wow. Personally, I cannot even fathom someone lying about the death or illness of a loved one for any reason, let alone to try to attain some advantage in a game, of all things.

sorry to stall out the game I guess, but I really want Jazz to claim next.

that doesnt mean we have to stop talking.

I'm perfectly content with the mass claim and I'm happy to go next. I'm Baloo from the Jungle Book. I was a Vanilla Townie until Gorrad visited me during the night and gave me a particular ability. My initial role flavour was to the effect (paraphrasing) that so many are running around with special limited edition movies, special features and sequels until it kills off the franchise, all of which is too much work because I just wanted to 'forget about my worries and my strife' and stick to the 'bare necessities', so all I had was my jungle smarts and my vote to try to eliminate the mafia.

But after Gorrad visited, my role changed, and I was given a non-Vanilla ability.

if star is anything I am betting the eraser (SK?)....a vanilla claim does not do anything for her either way.

That makes sense. I can see Starbuck as the SK, and that might make more sense than the scum read I previously got from her posts. I'll have to look at her posts again in isolation with that in mind.

If this is a popcorn thing, does that mean I get to pick who claims next? If so, I'll choose Crazy.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

But after Gorrad visited, my role changed, and I was given a non-Vanilla ability.

EBWOP: That should say "as" not "and".

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Also, I will try to read everything more closely tomorrow as I'll be home for the next couple of days, but I'm really tired now, so sorry if I missed anything important.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

As I said previously, I got an Event message at the beginning of Day 2.

It said (paraphrasing) that I woke up in the morning to find some medicine, giving me a one-shot doctor ability. The ability could not be used until Night 2. I figured out from Gorrad's hint on Day 2 that it was likely him who had visited me, so that's why I tried to save him. That's also why I said this:

If those of you voting him unvote him,

he can probably be protected overnight.

I figured that whatever his role was, it was a PR with more power than just a one-shot doctor, and if I could prevent his lynch, I would also have a shot at protecting him overnight. That didn't work out, obviously, since there wasn't sufficient time to stop his lynch.

I still have the one-shot doctor ability as I didn't use it during Night 2.

if jazz is telling the truth, gorrad should have targetted someone else...when claiming, if anyone else was targetted by gorrad please speak up....

Only if Gorrad had a Night 0 action, since he targeted me on Night 1 and was lynched on Day 2. This seems unlikely, unless game moderators give players secret Night 0 actions in games with a Day 1 start??

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

There's a lot going on here (at home) but I will do my best to catch up tonight and then post my thoughts on all that has transpired recently in the game.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Okay, catching up.

I'm a bit blown away by Crazy's SK claim, as I didn't see that coming at all. I've had a neutral/town read on him all game.

My strongest Mafia suspect remains Starbuck. I've spelled out my case on her previously and nothing she's done since has changed my read on her. If there is only one Mafia left, then her barrages of accusations against everyone and anyone for anything and everything make even more sense for Starbuck as scum than previously thought.

Kublai Khan's claim seems believable for the most part. Monkey was a "limited" watcher and presumably his explanation for the limitation was true (i.e., that he could only watch if we didn't lynch a townie), and since there is a high probability of town lynching town in the early days, that seems a pretty weak role, so it makes sense to me that we could also have a tracker. Brandi didn't seem particularly scummy to me, and she came out pretty quickly on Day 2 voting for Neopi, so that also jives. The only part of Kublai Khan's claim that I don't quite understand is why he would track me last night. If he did, he's right that I didn't go anywhere because I'm a VT with a one-shot doctor ability, and I didn't use that ability last night, but I already said that in the thread, so it would be a pretty safe claim to make if he's scum.

I am somewhat suspicious of semioldguy's Robin Hood claim, because it seems a bit weak, and I was suspicious of him previously because it seemed like he was spelling off Starbuck on pushing the Monkey wagon at the end of Day 1 after Starbuck unvoted Monkey (even though Starbuck kept advocating for Monkey's lynch despite not being on his wagon - very scummy), so I thought the two of them might be scum partners and thought that semioldguy was covering for Starbuck jumping off of the Monkey wagon, but his most recent posts look more townie to me. I haven't worked through the math yet and I'm not sure that I can as math is not my forte (but I'll try) and I don't know enough about game setups to know how mods balance the games, but his recent posts make sense upon my first read of them (unless there are still two Mafia, in which case he could just be trying to get the town to think otherwise in order to force a Mafia win).

Argh.

I'm not going to vote yet because we have lots of time and I really have to think this through some more, and read through things again more closely. But I still think Starbuck is scum.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

For now, I'm going to assume Starbuck is town. She has a decent fitting flavor claim, she was on the Neopi wagon, and if she was scum, she would have had to claim Vanilla Townie before mass-claim, which I consider a very risky gambit, since most vanilla claims are just lynched. BAM!

I disagree with assuming that Starbuck is town, because I still think she's scum.

On October 11, Starbuck claimed VT for no apparent reason at L-3. She made her claim at 12:37 a.m, saying,

So it's time to claim.

I am Buzz Lightyear from Toy Story, Vanilla Townie.

Then, one minute later at 12:38, she said,

Oh dammit, we need 7 to lynch, not 5.

I'm retarded.

So, okay, I could probably believe that Starbuck made an honest mistake and claimed at L-3 because she thought it was L-1 and thought that it took only 5 to lynch rather than 7, despite the vote count being posted just above her claim post, making it very obvious that this is a 12 player game, but I find it

exceedingly

difficult to believe that she could make the same "honest mistake" again, later the

very same day

, after all of that.

Yet, later the same day, at 2:24 p.m., she says,

I would hammer myself to move the game along if I was scum. Since I'm not scum, I'm not going to hammer myself.

And 17 minutes later at 2:41 p.m., she purports to self-hammer, when she's still at L-3, just as she was when she claimed a few hours earlier, and again she purports to have just realized that it would take 7 to lynch, not 5.

So, when she then says,

I keep thinking it's 5 to lynch instead of 7.

/sigh

I fail.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it.

Previously, I thought that she was scum trying to self-hammer. Now, looking back, I think it more likely that she's scum who was just pretending to do so, looking for "frustrated townie" sympathy.

If the mafia is a 3-scum team, I can easily see why Starbuck would be on the Neopi wagon. Neopi replaced fuzzylightning (who barely participated in the game), and Neopi was even less helpful to scumStarbuck than fuzzy, so I can certainly see some bussing going on there, especially since fuzzy left the game (October 11, 1207 p.m.) right in the midst of Starbuck's (fake)claim and Starbuck's fake-hammer.

That leaves the possible scumteams as:
SOG/Jazz - If this was true, then they didn't take a risk by trying to quicklynch KK or Starbuck. It's possible, but somewhat unlikely.

SOG/KK - SOG did seem to attack KK, but never voted for him, and instead switched his focus to me. Also, note how SOG seemed waiting for Jazz to post before he voted. He even said "Consider me voting for KK." Perhaps he was waiting to see if Jazz would vote for Starbuck and enable him to quickhammer?

KK/Jazz - If KK and Jazz were scum together, then I can't imagine why Jazz didn't side with SOG against me. Thus, this seems to be the least likely pairing of these three possibilities.

So I'm thinking it's SOG/KK, with SOG/Jazz as the next likely possibility. Obviously, I'm keeping my vote on SOG.

I see the logic there, but I think that by excluding Starbuck from your thought processes, you are missing things. And, you're scum, of course, so I can't help but think that you're doing so on purpose.

If there is a three-Mafia team, then since there is no reason to disbelieve your scum SK claim, I see the possible Mafia teams as Starbuck/SOG, Starbuck/KK, or SOG/KK.

But if it's a two Mafia scenario instead of a three Mafia scenario, as SOG suggests, then that all changes. I'm going to have to think about this some more.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Why would I be doing that? I lose if mafia isn't lynched today.

Right. I hadn't really thought that through, I guess, but you're quite right. You have as much to lose as the town today, and we really have to hit Mafia.

That leaves the possible scumteams as:

SOG/Jazz - If this was true, then they didn't take a risk by trying to quicklynch KK or Starbuck. It's possible, but somewhat unlikely.

SOG/KK - SOG did seem to attack KK, but never voted for him, and instead switched his focus to me. Also, note how SOG seemed waiting for Jazz to post before he voted. He even said "Consider me voting for KK." Perhaps he was waiting to see if Jazz would vote for Starbuck and enable him to quickhammer?

KK/Jazz - If KK and Jazz were scum together, then I can't imagine why Jazz didn't side with SOG against me. Thus, this seems to be the least likely pairing of these three possibilities.

So I'm thinking it's SOG/KK, with SOG/Jazz as the next likely possibility. Obviously, I'm keeping my vote on SOG.

I see the possible Mafia teams as Starbuck/SOG, Starbuck/KK, or SOG/KK.

We have some convergence here, in that we both think that the remaining scum team could be SOG/KK. I still think Starbuck is more likely to be Mafia than anyone, but we do at least have some convergence, and since you've indicated that you will not vote Starbuck in any circumstances, and the common denominator is SOG, I'm going to go with that.

Vote: semioldguy

If I'm right about Starbuck being Mafia, she won't hammer scum-semioldguy, and if I'm wrong about Starbuck and the remaining Mafia is KK, he won't hammer scum-semioldguy.


Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Fabulous! Kublai Khan, you did a fantastic job! I'd be delighted to scum-partner with you any time.

Thanks to Brandi and Neopi, too. Brandi did a good job, especially when she quickly voted Neopi on Day 2, and although Neopi was, um, erratic, he managed to throw enough crap at the wall to get Monkey lynched over himself on Night 1, which helped us.

Crazy, thanks for shooting Neopi before he could cause damage to the Mafia team on Day 2 by having to come up with unbelievable result claims and such.

The set up was fun, and very new to me as I've never played in a game with roles like Progressive Townie, Innocent Child, Day SK, Inventor, or combination Watcher/Tracker before. Many thanks to the game moderator, LlamaFluff, not only for the great game but for letting me continue throughout my unfortunate but necessary absences. I really appreciate that, as staying in the game gave me the opportunity to occupy my mind with things other than the stresses and grief that I had to deal with in real life. So, again, thank you.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Except that you called every single player in the game (other than yourself and maybe YankCane) scum during the game, which kind of negates you being "right" about it.



Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

so the mass claim killed us (town)..or at least didnt help

Yeah, the mass claim hurt the town because it led the SK to take out the strongest town role (you) since there were so few town power roles left. But none of us had any way of knowing that that would be the result, of course, until after it happened.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

god dammit...I was right about Jazz....should have killed him instead of SC.

Problem was, you never actually made a case on me and didn't even attempt to make a case on me. All you did was say "Jazz is scummy" without any reasoning or backup at all, and you didn't even vote for my lynch until the last day, which you did only briefly (again without any reasoning or backup) and then you unvoted me shortly thereafter when someone else asked you to do so.

Not surprising, in those circumstances, that others didn't vote to lynch me.

But yes, had you killed me instead of SC when you had the opportunity, that would certainly have been interesting.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

The activity of this scumgroup really disappointed me.

While yes, you guys did win, but you did it by lurking and that's definitely against the spirit of the game in my eyes. I know Jazzmyn had a death in the family, but I did too.

I hope you aren't referring to me with that "lurking" comment, Starbuck, because if you are, you're way out of line.

Also, since you seem to be bringing up your great-grandmother's death in all of your current games, I feel compelled to note that I extended my sympathies to you during the game when your great-grandmother died, but you never once did the same when my brother died.

No offence intended, but there's quite a difference between a great-grandparent dying and a sibling dying. I sincerely hope that you never have to learn the difference first hand.

I see some things were edited in the QT because they may have been offensive towards myself. The rules of Mafiascum extend to the QTs, and I would hope players know this.

It was nothing much really, and it was far, far milder than the invective that you have directed towards other players in this game, and it certainly didn't breach the MS rules in any way, so you shouldn't sweat it. It's just that I realized that it could be construed as insulting (deservedly so, in my view) toward you so I didn't wish to leave it there because that's not my style. I edited it shortly after I wrote it in the scum chat, quite some time ago.

But if you really must know, the truth is that I find you to be one of the rudest and most obnoxious players that I've ever had the misfortune to play with, and I will avoid playing in games with you in the future.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

EBWOP: I do not wish for any of this to distract from the great game that this was or the terrific job that the game mod, LlamaFluff, did in making it so. But Starbuck just really annoyed me with her comments. I probably should have just ignored them and I will do so going forward.

So, back to the game: good game, all, and many thanks to LlamaFluff.


Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

EBWOP #2: and yeah, Neopi, as Kublai Khan said, you really are kind of a jerk. I hope you learn from this game.

Regards,
Jazz