/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[elvis_knits]

Okay, maybe I'm slow here, but what is the plan? I think we should spell out the plan so everyone knows what they are supposed to do tonight. We do not want to be in the position that someone can say they were confused and submitted hte wrong action and are still unconfirmed tomorrow. We need to spell it out so that anyone who fails to follow the plan gets automatically lynched.

And does any of it depend on the outcome of tajo's flip? We might want to make two plans... if tajo is town, or if he's scum.

[elvis_knits]

Should I claim?

[elvis_knits]

I'm also wondering how we should plan if there is a scum RB.

[elvis_knits]

I'm just talking about roleblocks in general. We're planning actions but I want us to be prepared if one doesn't go through, how will that effect everything else. I like the double protect on kmd though.

If nobody has countered KMD, he has to be the vig.

I think we should have iam and serial target kmd, so it is not possible to kill kmd. Kmd vigs iamausername.

If iam a username is scum, he will die.

[elvis_knits]

Also, FWIW, I am vanilla town. I realize this is less helpful now since pooky already claimed vanilla, and rofl can't investigate more than one person per night (if he's even actually a vanilla cop).

[elvis_knits]

I think we should have iam and serial target kmd, so it is not possible to kill kmd. Kmd vigs iamausername.

That's a reasonable plan. If the scum do have a roleblocker, they could block Iam and then he gets shot by KMD, though.

DAMMIT this is what I am talking about. I suck at seeing these types of holes.

[elvis_knits]

I'm almost wondering if it's worth it to lynch iamausername to try to find out if there is a scum RB.

If he's town, we know there is a scum RB.

However, if he's scum, we don't really know. Although nobody else has evidence of a block, so I guess probably not? Yes, if iamausername is scum, there's probably no roleblocker.

I'm not sure that's better than a tajo lynch though.

[elvis_knits]

Also, FWIW, I am vanilla town. I realize this is less helpful now since pooky already claimed vanilla, and rofl can't investigate more than one person per night (if he's even actually a vanilla cop).

No, it's helpful. I would expect scum would be less likely to want to claim vanilla right now. Which is actually part of the reason I still suspect SC; if rofl is telling the truth and is a vanilla cop, I'd expect at least some of the scum to try and claim some weak, unconformable power role, like bodyguard.

TBH, if I had a power, I would have used it night one, even if it's a one-shot. Because who knows when you're going to get NKed, and I wouldn't want to die without using it. Fact that he saved his power is strange to me. It's not what I would ever do, but maybe some people play that way? I don't know.

[elvis_knits]

Guys, Elvis is scum. Lynching username proves nothing. When she says 'if he's town we know there is a scum RB' is bs. It means there could be a scum RB or rofl is scum. I think this is a slip, since she isn't counting the possibility of rofl being scum, just that username was roleblocked. If rofl was scum, then obviously there doesn't need to be a roleblocker (still could be one obviously).

I'd lynch pooky or elvis. I'm pretty sure both them are scum. Pretty sure rofl is town.

I told you I suck at seeing the loopholes.

Do you think I am scum thinking I could trick you into missing something so obvious? I'm trying to plan something that will help us win, and it seems like I am taking a front seat here because so many people are not helping.

THINK OF A BETTER PLAN IF YOU CAN.

[elvis_knits]

The only thing I'm worried about, is if he hides behind town and that townie gets killed, but I don't see why/how that would happen.

It seems like that would be the perfect thing for scum to do, right? Kill whoever tajo is hiding with, get 2 for 1.

How about tajo hides behind (DESIGNATED PERSON) and Iamausername jailkeeps that same person, and serial bodyguards that same person. Would that protect the designated person if they were town? Maybe not, if one or both of serial/username are scum with a roleblocker. If they're both scum or one is scum and scum have a roleblocker, they can still get the 2 for 1.

I really think we should kill tajo today. If he's town he confirms half the town. I said before, if I am one of the only town left on the short list, I wouldn't mind dying for the town win. I just want to make sure that tajo is really town before I go for that.

Unless there is a real plan that scum can't screw us with. I'm still looking for that, if anyone has a good idea. The more ideas we have and the more people trying, would really help our odds here people.

[elvis_knits]

Charter, are you willing to lose the game if I'm town?

[elvis_knits]

Seriously, what is the benefit of opening us up for a 2 for 1 when we can just lynch tajo right now and find out if he's scum but limit the damage if he's town?

[elvis_knits]

The only thing is if there is five scum, and tajo hides behind town tonight, and scum kill that townie, then I think we lose.

So I'm town.

If tajo is town, and he hides behind me, and if there are five scum, then we lose.

So I'm just asking you if you are willing to hinge the game on that when we can just kill tajo right now and confirm half the town without that autolose scenario.

[elvis_knits]

pooky vote tajo

[elvis_knits]

I also think that if tajo flips town, this confirms iaun as scum, and by extension, elvis, since she fought so hard for his claim.

What? Whose claim did I fight hard for?

You are tunneled on me hard, Charter. I don't mind dying as long as you don't include me in some sort of plan that will make the town auto-lose if I'm town. Let's just be smart about this.

[elvis_knits]

I think zu faul is scum guys. I've been thinking he was a cop or info role of some kind since beginning of day 2 when he clearly breadcrumbed that Thesp was town.

This is the post I am talking about:

Which game, VP Baltar? I assumed that his absense was legitimate.

I think Thesp is a good citizen.

There are still some questions directed at ekiM, would love an answer.

[elvis_knits]

Oh, remember how everyone bitched at me for asking about that? Then you and him accuse me of rolefishing? Yeah.

zu faul doesn't want to lynch tajo, which makes me like it more.

Yeah, well I was wrong about that. And you're wrong about me being scum. So let's just call it even. We're both trying our best.

I'd say there is a good chance zu and thesp are both scum, in addition to tajo.

Also, if kmd is faking vig, the real vig will kill him tonight.

[elvis_knits]

I would unvote tajo is we are going to lynch zu faul. He is the person I am most sure is scum at this point because his claim is BS, inconsistent with his earlier breadcrumb. He says he only said "Thesp is a good citizen" because he thought thesp was the vig. In what universe does that make sense? If you think a guy is the vig, you don't point it out. He didn't even provide reasoning why he thought thesp was hte vig (it doesn't even make sense), but if he did, he shouldn't have been hinting at it.

Zu faul is definitely scum.

[elvis_knits]

Also, of note, nobody claimed protective roles except SC and iamausername, which would seem to indicate that atleast one of them is telling the truth.

[elvis_knits]

I didn't hear you explain why you thought Thesp was a vig in that post.

[elvis_knits]

Okay I guess you did give some reasons:

I think zu faul is scum guys. I've been thinking he was a cop or info role of some kind since beginning of day 2 when he clearly breadcrumbed that Thesp was town.

This is the post I am talking about:

Which game, VP Baltar? I assumed that his absense was legitimate.

I think Thesp is a good citizen.

There are still some questions directed at ekiM, would love an answer.

I had Thesp as obv Vig after Night 1:

Thesp, if I lurk, kill me. Can I have the same call from you?

Sure!

This was from the round of questions that Thesp asked everyone at the very start of the game. It is also the only time Thesp ever mentions Inhim. And you thought this meant Thesp killed inhim?

Also, Thesp mentioned the Vig several times (remember when people accused him of directing the vig? that was not the only time when he did so).

Do you normally see vigs directing themselves?

[elvis_knits]

Also, of note, nobody claimed protective roles except SC and iamausername, which would seem to indicate that atleast one of them is telling the truth.

I don't follow this logic at all.

Don't you think there's probably atleast one protective role in the game?

[elvis_knits]

I question this argument from Yos:

Right now, if tajo flips town, we have two confirmed townies from him (charter and rofl), and from rofl, we have two confirmed vanillas (me and VP.) With Tajo and rofl dead tommorow, we only have 3 confirmed townies left, out of a pool of 11 people. (4, if you count KMD, who I also consider confirmed). If there are 5 scum, then that means there will still be 2 unconfirmed town people left, and with 5 scum-votes out of 6 votes to lynch, the odds are, town will end up lynching one of them and losing.

Is it really going to be that hard to lynch right when our odds are 4/7 or 5/7?

[elvis_knits]

Hammer away.

[elvis_knits]

Just that there normally is?

I didn't say 100%, but probably.

[elvis_knits]

I wish this wasn't so complicated.

I just don't want to be on the short list of possible scum if we haven't confirmed the info.

But, no, I don't think pooky is town.

[elvis_knits]

Then lynching tajo will prove that and we can then lynch Serial and Pooky and whoever else you want.

If we lynch tajo and he's town, we're probably fucked.

Why is this worse than mislynching someone else? There's always the possibility of mislynch, but with tajo if we mislynch we get a huge gift of a bunch of confirmed townies.

[elvis_knits]

It had occured to me that they could both be scum, especially given pooky's unwillingness to vote tajo even though he 'knows he's town'.

This is the best reason for lynching pooky I've seen all day.

However, he's probably the more lowly team member in that case.

[elvis_knits]

I looked back at when tajo claimed hider just to make sure, and roflcopter was L-1 at the time and about to be lynched. Coincidence? I think not.

Check out page 59 if you want to read tajo's panicky claim designed to save scumbuddy rofl.

vote roflcopter

[elvis_knits]

I think SC's scum list was pretty good.

I think this is the way it should go, assuming everyone on this list keeps flipping scum and the game continues with more scum to lynch:

1)Lynch Rofl
2)Watch Yos suicide. If that doesn't happen:
3)Lynch Yos
4)Lynch Zu
5)Watch Thesp suicide. If that doesn't happen:
6)Lynch Thesp

If there is a problem in there anywhere, where someone is by some miracle not scum, we should look at:

Pooky, VP

Charter, SC, ekiM all seem pretty town to me after yesterday. They didn't have to lynch tajo. If, however, rofl flips town we might have to look at them. I consider the chances of rofl flipping town infintessimal (sp?).

KMD is the only person to have claimed vig, nobody countered and nobody shot him overnight (if he was faking, the real vig would have shot him), so I think he has to be the vig.

That's everybody, right?

[elvis_knits]

BTW, Reading the role PMs I think the mafia team know who the traitor is from the start.

How do you figure this? I don't see it. (also doesn't make much sense, cause they'd just recruit him right away)

The way the PMs are written as: Your buddies are: Mafia (??), Mafia (??), etc.

It looks like the "??" would stand for "goon" or "roleblocker" or "traitor."

I don't know what you're talking about recruiting. It looks to me like recruiting isn't a part of the way traitor works in this game. It seems like the traitor only knows who the GF is from the PM, but the whole rest of the team knows who the traitor is.

So basically I think one of rofl/Yos and Zu/Thesp is lovers and hte other is a GF/traitor pair.

[elvis_knits]

Yeah I've seen traitors need to be recruited before, but I don't think this game works that way.

I would be open to charter's suggestion that VP might be scum, and open to VP's suggestiong that Pooky might be scum. I think both of those are possible. I think they're less likely than zu/thesp, but we should discuss it.

But whatever we do, I think rofl and Yos die first. They are almost definitely scum, and need to die ASAP. Then if we make a mistake we have some breathing room.

The reason I tend to think pooky is town is because all the scummy people were trying to lynch him over tajo yesterday. I mean, it's entirely possible that tajo and pooky are both scum, and the rest of the team had to go for the pooky lynch to try to save tajo who was faking a confirm on most of them. Entirely possible. Although I tend to think the scum team wanted a mislynch... especially given the juicy pooky target. All the guy ever posts is "pooky town! don't lynch me! I'm innocent! Really!" I mean, if he's town, he looks like an easy mislynch to scum.

Although, I seem to remember the people on the pooky lynch being spread out all over the place before the wagon built on tajo. rofl and someone where voting iamausername and yos was voting SC. So it's possible they were forced to come to the pooky wagon as the only viable alternate wagon to tajo. And tajo dying was worst case scenario for them because it implicated them as scum.

Pooky is possible.

VP I lean town for a few reasons. 1)He ultimately did vote tajo. We were so close there, VP could have pushed the lynch the other way. 2)Rofl confirms him vanilla, and given that I think rofl is faking his claim and fake confirming yos, it seems a little hard to believe that he confirmed two of his buddies in a fake claim. It seems too risky. You got to throw in one actual townie to make your results believable.

Anyway, those reasons aren't like unbreakable or anything, but that's what my reasoning is.

Plus, zu breadcrumbing thesp innocent is just too scummy. And neither of them have played very pro-town other than that. Thesp has been lurky, and zu was pretty scummy D1 when I had problems with him.

[elvis_knits]

Wait I was just thinking about this in the shower. What if they were both scum and pooky came down to the deciding vote, he could have voted himself, but that would have made it pretty obvious that tajo was scum, and that rofl and yos were scum too. But they would have survived an extra day, taking out pooky first.

However they might have decided it was better in the long run to have pooky hammer tajo. Even though the damage to the scum team would be severe, they wouldn't have been able to avoid that anyway, so they tried to make pooky look town in the process?

I wonder what would have happened if pooky had failed to vote anyone... I don't know what mith's deadline rules are... or who reached six votes first between pooky and tajo.

[elvis_knits]

VP Baltar: 6 (

ekiM

,

iamausername, Ojanen

,

SerialClergyman

, Thesp,

Xylthixlm

, Elvis)

This does put a question in my mind about VP. Thesp is probably scum though, if that makes a difference.

I still wonder if a rofl fakeclaiming would confirm two of his buddies by claiming Yos and VP. I guess it's a WIFOM type thing though.

I think that VP or Pooky are possibly scum, and we can consider whether we want to lynch one of them before one of zu/thesp. I still think zu/thesp are much scummier. And whatever we do, we should lynch rofl and yos before anything else. There really doesn't need to be a discussion about that.

If Rofl is town by some miracle, he will get in here and give his result from last night and then just take his lynch like a manly bunny. If he's scum, he'll drag it out like he did when we needed him to claim yesterday.

[elvis_knits]

elvis, what makes you suspect zu and thesp?

Well, I suspected zu strongly D1. Then beginning of D2 he comes in and crumbs "I think Thesp is a good citizen."

So I sort of backed off and let that play out. Despite the fact that thesp lurked and was basically unhelpful, I figured maybe he was laying low since zu had crumbed he was town. I thought maybe he didn't want to make himself a bigger target, especially if he was PR too.

Yet they both claimed vanilla yesterday!

So, zu's claim does not match with the breadcrumb. There is an obvious link between the two, and Thesp has not been very helpful or involved most of hte game. He lurks on and off and seems to try to get by with the minimum.

Also zu/thesp didn't want to lynch either of iamausername/rofl. A viewpoint which is decidedly beneficial to scum if one of iam/rofl is scum. So their stance there was protective to rofl (who is almost definitely scum). And another instance where zu/thesp agree.

[elvis_knits]

they mad scummy. tried to kill poor innocent me.

As usual, this type of insight is priceless.

[elvis_knits]

lol

pooks ur my hero

[elvis_knits]

I don't blame you charter as I was mostly attacking town in the beginning except zu which I stopped attacking because I thought he was a power role. I gave rofl too much leeway because I have a crush on him.

[elvis_knits]

Not buying rofl's story.

Me neither, but if he flips town we lynch thesp tomorrow and have VP and Yos confirmed town.

I don't think we can go wrong there.

[elvis_knits]

it can't be lylo, so that works even if its not ideal. tajo's antics clearly mark me for death.

Yeah you are marked for death. <3 anyway.

If you are somehow town, who do you think is scum besides Thesp?

[elvis_knits]

serial, ekim, charter if its a four man team. add zu if its five. i think most of the scumteam claimed nonvanilla. tajo's claim implicates charter, plus he and ekim both made claims that are only comfirable if they're lynched/wagoned and sc's "confirmable" claim actually requires him to die, which he may never do.

So you think they all decided that it would be a good idea if tajo stopped the wagon on you (a town power role if you're telling the truth), in favor of fighting for their buddy tajo to die?

They could have totally lycnhed you yesterday, but they decided to sacrifice tajo to make you look like scum? You already looked like scum so I don't see what they're gaining.

[elvis_knits]

rofl, you realize that for you to be town there has to be a scum roleblocker. Since iam died as town.

Nobody else has claimed evidence of a roleblocker.

[elvis_knits]

i can only imagine they blocked kmd last night instead of me.

And why hasn't he said anything?

KMD, were you blocked??

[elvis_knits]

charter, elvis_knits, please unvote. There is no rush today, and you are giving scum an out to avoid a 2-fer-1.

Wait, what?

I admit to having a few beers by now, but what 2-fer-1 are we talking about?

[elvis_knits]

Sorry this is a little late but this is for roflcopter:

[elvis_knits]

ekiM is saying that Yos is the godfather, that it makes sense to lynch him instead of rofl.

I am currently debating taking the surefire 100% scum in rofl, for the 99.9999999% scum in Yosarian.

Yos is lover or yos is GF. I don't see how it matters who we lynch first, unless we're worried kmd can't vig a GF.

I think the smart money is on lynching rofl. Becuase in the unlikely even we're wrong we get two confirmed in yos and vp and one scum in thesp. If we're wrong on yos we get nothing.

Unless somebody can say they've been blocked and there is a scum rb, then rofl is deaddeaddead.

[elvis_knits]

Oh I forgot traitor will suicide!

Hmmm.

You have a point.

[elvis_knits]

The only hesitation I have is, "What if roflcopter is a/the Mafia Roleblocker?"

This made me laugh.

Doesn't the phrasing mean there might be more than one mafia roleblocker? Why would anyone think that?

Scare me more, Thesp. I like the thrill.

[elvis_knits]

Um, I really think we should lynch rofl.

I agree that yos is probably scum and maybe GF, but I would rather just take the safe route here. We cannot lose by lynching rofl, because he's either scum, or town who gives us one scum in thesp and two innocents in yos and vp. Our worst case scenario there is with rofl being town, and even then we get thesp as scum and two innocents. Our worst case scenario is quite awesome. Plus kmd can probably vig thesp tonight, so either way we will have another dead scum by morning.

I would rather not go for a possible 2-fer-1 trying to lynch a possible GF, who if we're wrong will really screw us up. If rofl is traitor, we lynch Yos tomorrow and he's probably GF. There's nothing really lost by doing it that way. It takes an extra day, but we can afford that. We cannot afford to lynch yos first if for some reason he flips town.

I would rather take the safe route that will keep us from losing should we be wrong, over going for the outright gonzo win which will cause us to go down in flames if we're wrong.

[elvis_knits]

Zu's post is funny because other than voting roflcopter, nothing makes sense.

Everything else he's suggesting will probably help scum. Like make charter treestump... which effectively kills him. He should make a pretty good case why he thinks charter is scum if he's going to force charter to prove his ability. And I really have seen no reasoning from him why he thinks charter is scum.

And kmd shoot pooky? pfffft.

[elvis_knits]

No, ekiM is not right there. Yos is saying he keeps going back and forth wondering rofl's allignment after seeing tajo flip scum. He has made no admission that he thought tajo was scum yesterday.

This is neither here nor there, as I still think Yos and rofl are scum, but not because of ekiM's reason.

I mean, the bit he quoted is sort of scummy because he's floating a way for rofl to be town. That's why it's scummy. Not because of what ekiM said.

[elvis_knits]

Well, this is going well.

I can only assume SC died protecting kmd.

So far the plan from yesterday has worked out.

1)Lynch Rofl
2)Watch Yos suicide. If that doesn't happen:
3)Lynch Yos

4)Lynch Zu
5)Watch Thesp suicide. If that doesn't happen:
6)Lynch Thesp

Looks like next step is to lynch zu.

Only thing that is making me have slight doubt about zu/thesp being scum is the way VP wants to look at pooky. VP doing good job of trying to get himself on the lynch list.

[elvis_knits]

Handy claim list:
charter - stumpy
ekiM - vengeful townie
elvis_knits - vanilla
Kmd4390 - vig
PookyTheMagicalBear, replacing alexhans N1 - vanilla
Thesp - vanilla
VP Baltar - vanilla
zu_Faul - vanilla

[elvis_knits]

I fail to see what pooky has done in this game to make you believe he is town, but whatever. I'm pretty much fine lynching any of the three people I listed because I think any remaining scum are in their ranks. Order shouldn't matter because I don't see how we can lose the game.

I think the thing pooky has done is be the alternate lynch candidate to poptajo. Pooky was the preferred lynch of the scumbags, which seems to speak to him being townie.

[elvis_knits]

this is the way i see da game

these 4 are like beyond reproach:

charter
elvis_knits
Kmd4390
PookyTheMagicalBear, replacing alexhans N1

ekim is probly innocent.

my order of scummiest to least scummy for people i think are scum are:

Zu
Thesp
VP

We should have 3 lynches so i'm not so worried about that.

tho the extra person we have allows us to shoot once at night, so really 4 kills we gots.

and I'd love a Zu lynch followed by Thesp vig =)

I think kmd should def shoot tonight since he's prob the NK and this will be his last chance.

So if we lynch zu, I assume he flips scum. Then kmd vigs Thesp. If thesp is alive in the morning he's the GF w/ NK immunity and we lynch him anyway. If thesp is dead in the morning and the game is still going, then we lynch VP for the win.

I think that works, right?

[elvis_knits]

Also, I think VP has some scum points because there were like all town on the wagon that almost lynched him...

[elvis_knits]

Oh also, I don't think there's any scum roleblocker. There's been no evidence of one.

[elvis_knits]

I see what VP is saying and I think it is possible that they were trying to avoid the disaster of a tajo lynch by lynching anyone, even one of their own.

Could we do something like:

If Zu flips scum, vig thesp
If Zu flips town vig pooky

Technically, if zu is town, thesp could still be scum who got really lucky that zu was convinced he was town and decided to broadcast that like it was a breadcrumb. But I think that it's likely they're scum together the way zu tried to tell us "Thesp is good citizen." If we're wrong about zu, maybe it's worth it to vig pooky?

What do people think?

[elvis_knits]

I was just thinking that if zu flips town maybe that means we're wrong about thesp too. I see them as primarily linked, although Thesp has been scummy in his own regard.

[elvis_knits]

Oh, okay. I am bad at numbers. I have to game it out in detail and then check it a few times to make sure when I'm trying to think of endgame scenarios.

[elvis_knits]

For the record, I am strongly opposed to any and all plans that involve lynching or vigging me.

lol, I am shocked.

[elvis_knits]

I'm so tempted to hammer.

[elvis_knits]

I know. I'm so torn between imagining his surprise when he checks the thread to find himself already dead, vs. reading some more funny posts where he angrily accuses me of seeing anyone who agrees with me as town.

[elvis_knits]

I suspected kmd didn't have bullets since he wasn't shooting... pretending to be holding his bullets was good play. Good job, kmd.

I agree thesp is el scumbaggo. I think he should be the lynch.

Is there anything to discuss otherwise?

Playas left:

charter - stumpy
ekiM -vengeful townie
elvis_knits - vanilla
PookyTheMagicalBear, replacing alexhans N1 - vanilla
Thesp - vanilla
VP Baltar - vanilla

[elvis_knits]

Well thesp, I appreciate the effort you have finally put into this game when your ass is numero uno on the chopping block.

I'm not that convinced of any of your arguments though. It seems like you're just buddying to the remaining power roles and trying to throw doubt on everyone else.

This did more for your cause that anything you posted:

Really the only reservation I have about lynching you is your constant calling for the vigging of Yos, which is also anti town, and then rofl calling you out for it.

I didn't remember this.

[elvis_knits]

Thesp, if VP is scum, why do you think he would vote tajo if he was trying to save tajo/vote pooky?

You seem to be saying that VP is scum because he did some waffling on tajo vs. pooky. But if he really wanted pooky dead, he could have voted pooky. It was within his power to lynch pooky instead. If he really wanted to save tajo, don't you think he would have, you know, done it?

[elvis_knits]

Also, as far as roflcopter calling a guilty result on thesp I think that means that thesp is scum. Here's why:

Rofl comes into that day being screwed by tajo and looking like the lynch. He has to claim a result. If he claims an innocent on someone that will not save him from the lynch. We say to him "great, if you're town we'll get another confirmed."

If he claims a guilty there is a chance we lynch his guilty result. And if the guilty result flips scum it makes rofl look more town.

If he claim a guilty and the lynch flips town we know for sure rofl is scum and his cover is blown to hell. There's no point in him doing that if it's not lylo. And after lynching tajo it was probably not lylo.

If I were roflcopter coming into that sucky situation after tajo flips scum, I would claim a guilty on my scum buddy. It just makes the most sense. It's the only thing that could possibly convince us not to lynch him and the only thing that will not out him as scum.

The only reason he would not claim a correct guilty result is if he thought there was no chance of saving himself.

[elvis_knits]

I like how Thesp came in and answered none of my questions.

[elvis_knits]

Well thesp, I appreciate the effort you have finally put into this game when your ass is numero uno on the chopping block.

I'm not sure that's a fair accusation - I had some time I could contribute, so I did.

Doesn't look like it matters - I've been lynched. Good luck town. Get VP Baltar, and look at my end-day analysis re: Ekim & charter.

So are we supposed to believe that thesp can't count and believes himself lynched?

When the lynch number is 4 and there's a vote count on the page, I have a hard time believing that thesp thought himself lynched.

[elvis_knits]

Wait there wasn't a vote count on the page but all the votes were on the page. Could thesp have really missed charter's unvote?

[elvis_knits]

I'm trying to be fair and do this right, but I really think thesp is scum.

A lot of things make me think this. Just generally, he hasn't seemed that active or involved. When we were mass claiming and scrambling around for a plan, thesp didn't seem that helpful.

And why was thesp going for the pooky lynch over tajo? One of my main reasons for wanting the tajo lynch was that if he was town that would put me on a very short list for possible scum. I was fine with dying with the scum if we could confirm the scum were there, but I wasn't about to just accept that without finding out if tajo was telling the truth.

Thesp was in the same position going onto the short list, but he was cool with that. Why?

And let's not forget the ties to zufaul. There is of course the ridiculous way zufaul tried to confirm thesp. But he can argue he had nothing to do with that. But there are other things too. There was a lot of zufaul and thesp agreeing and making similar moves. And when the iam/rofl claim came down, thesp and zu both thought it would be a good idea not to lynch either of rofl or iam. And we discussed how this is a pro-scum POV if one of iam/rofl is scum. Thesp was totally on board with not lynching either rofl or iam.

Thesp placement during the tajo lynch is just such a blinking neon sign to me.

PookyTheMagicalBear: 6 (

iamausername

,

populartajo, roflcopter

, Thesp,

Yosarian2, zu_Faul

)

I know iam was town... but other than that, look how thesp is in a scum sandwich!

I need thesp to explain why he wanted pooky lynched over tajo, and why he was fine with being on the short list of possible scum without confirming that tajo was telling the truth.

[elvis_knits]

I don't see how you have any kind of scum read on EK, Thesp.

Yeah he should have learned from the rest of his scum team that buddying me is his best chance.

---

Let's look at scum sandwich again:

PookyTheMagicalBear: 6 (

iamausername

,

populartajo, roflcopter

, Thesp,

Yosarian2, zu_Faul

)

Thesp is the only living player on the pooky wagon. If Thesp is town, that would mean that somebody on the tajo lynch is scum.

And if someone on the tajo lynch is scum, they could have unvoted tajo and pushed the lynch on pooky. But they didn't! Tajo was doomsday scenario for them. There is nothing they wanted to avoid more than tajo's lynch. But nobody unvoted tajo and moved to pooky. I really think they would have, given the high stakes of a tajo lynch. I don't think any amount of scum distancing or bussing/looking for town cred would be enough of a payoff to vote tajo at that point (since his lynch really gave us most of/the rest of the scum team).

[elvis_knits]

Are you serious? Please tell me you're just being a thespian now.

[elvis_knits]

fudge.

You think VP more scummy than pooky? Because I think vp's argument that pooky might have been the only available lynch for the scum team is sort of persuasive.

But then for VP I think that when he was almost run up to lynch, it was weird how it was like all town on his wagon.

[elvis_knits]

Thesp, if you're town, then this is the VP wagon from a few days ago:

VP Baltar: 6 (ekiM, iamausername, Ojanen, SerialClergyman, Thesp, Xylthixlm)

I'm pretty sure I was on that wagon too.

So that would make everyone on that wagon town if thesp is town. Sine I know I am and I think ekiM is.

[elvis_knits]

Like I said yesterday, I can see either pooky or vp as scum.

Vp's case that pooky was the only available lynch is possible. I want to look at how it built though to see where iam and thesp were on the wagon and if scum could have made it go anywhere else.

But it also is pretty compelling that the Baltar wagon that almost lynched him had ALL townies on it. ALL. That's right. Everyone on that bad boy was town. Scum could have totally lynched baltar if they'd wanted to, and yet... they did not.

[elvis_knits]

I still haven't looked at the stuff I meant to look at -- notably how the pooky wagon built and if there was any available alternative to the scum other than tajo. The last vote count that VP posts is probably pivotal in my assesment, but I want to read through the pages and see how the votes went and all the vote counts in that time. But the vote count VP posts pretty much supports the suspicions he has had about pooky.

On the other hand we do still have the VP wagon which is now confirmed all town. However, I could buy that we were all just being stupid voting vP to L-1 in a page, and the scum were scared to hammer because that would look pretty obv if they hammer a town after 1 page of voting/discussion.

I have to look at the pooky stuff I want to before I try to weigh the two against each other.

[elvis_knits]

I don't think I could ever forgive myself if I lost to pooky when he's put no effort into the game. Sometimes when things are close at endgame, I ask myself who I would rather lose to if I turn out wrong. And I would rather lose to VP if I have to lose at all.

[elvis_knits]

Wait I'm confused what happens with charter tree stumping. Will that lower the lynch number? How does that work?

[elvis_knits]

I was asking because you said something about you voting and I assumed that you wouldn't be voting since you'd be stumping. Unless you have no intention of stumping or can't stump.

I don't really think you're scum though, but I was just wondering why you would talk about voting.

Or do you still have a vote after stumping?

As to catching a quickhammer... not sure how you'd to that. Not sure why scum would need to do that anyway in this case.

[elvis_knits]

Well I guess that would have been good if someone thought they were laying down a scum hammer and they weren't. But the vote count says 3 to lynch now, so (pooky) would have to not realize that. I guess it's possible, though it would have to be a careless mistake.

[elvis_knits]

No, it could have worked. Although I forced you to talk about it so now it won't.


Unless pooky isn't reading the thread at all and doesn't notice this convo. Which, honestly, is a possibility.

[elvis_knits]

I'm not sure yet, but I did think 2066 from pooky was good.

The comments the scum had about VP are very important. The way they were mostly noncommital is sort of what I would expect from scum commenting on each other. But Yos seemed to sound like he would vote for VP... seemed to be saying he thought VP was scum. So then why not vote for him? Same thing with tajo I think, sounded very anti-baltar without voting.

[elvis_knits]

apart from the three folks voting him there was also talk by others that he was a scum bag.

Again, look at context beyond the vote counts.

EK, you're making me uncomfortable with your silence. At the start of the day you were leaning toward pooky being scum. Then charter said he was leaning toward me, and you seemed to be agreeing a bit more that way. It seems a bit like spurring on a fight from the sidelines. I'd like to hear you fleshed out opinion.

Um I've been lazy and not reread what I promised. IT began because we seemed to have time to kill and because I wanted to hear from pooky.

I am slightly swayed by pooky... not all his arguments. But I did think it was interesting what the scumbags had to say about you. Particularly how Yos seemed to say you were a good lynch and then not vote you. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't vote you after he said you were a good lynch if you're town.

Although, I know that the specific series of events can be modifying factors.

I plan to read pages around your wagon, VP, as well as the pooky wagon and tajo wagon, how that all went down. That will be more of a deciding factor than anything else, although I am trying to listen to both sides just to make sure I am being fair. I will of course post my findings and be open to discuss before I vote though.

Anyway, I will try to do this reading tomorrow.

[elvis_knits]

Oh yeah I almost forgot about VP's bad case on EkiM that was mostly based on VLA.

[elvis_knits]

Reading the VP wagon, all the votes were from town, and all the scum went from the SC wagon to the Xyl wagon.

Sort of suspicious!

794 - Yos completely ignores the VP wagon
803 - pooky fails to comment on vp wagon. unvotes charter, calls tajo scum without voting him. (this is hella bad and conflicts with all this info pointing to vp scum)
812 - zu unvotes SC votes ekiM - says he only skimmed vp, no comments on him
813 - Yos fails to comment on VP again
814 - Ojanen comments that Yos didn't say anything about VP
817 - SC asks zu what he thinks of yos
820 - VP agrees Yos not commenting is weird
821 - elvis agrees, said this was the first time i really thought yos was scummy
824 - Xyl pressuring Yos
828 - Iam pressures Yos

830 - zu: "VP Baltar's wagon grew way too fast to not suspect some baleful influence (well, this is somewhat regardless of his alignment - scum would want to be on that wagon either way). "

834 - Yos says he could see lynching vp (does not vote)
836 Yos scumlist

Sure, Xyl. Pretty sure I've already said my opinion on most people in the game. Note that the names aren't in any specific order except by category.

Obv town:
Elvis
Rofl

Likely town: (people who are making sense, who are contributing, who generally seem to have pro-town motives, who look like they're scumhunting)
charter
Ojanen
iamausername
zu_Faul

Neutral (people I can't get a read on, or who I have a mixed read on)
Xylthixlm
Poptajo
ekiM
Thesp
zu_Faul

Neutral-scummy
VP Baltar
PookyTheMagicalBear

Scummy
SerialClergyman
Kmd4390

854 - rofl unvotes sc, votes xyl
856 - rofl slams the baltar wagon

I particulary noticed that zu's comment about the VP wagon being scum driven either way VP flips, is very scummy. He's saying that either VP is innocent poor baby (which suggest we shouldn't lynch VP), or that VP is being bussed (which helps him tie VP to townies, should VP get lynched and flip scum). THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I DO AS SCUM. If you'r buddy is going down, you tie him to a bunch of townies, to try to get some mislynches out of the disaster of having to lynch your buddy. I don't see the benefit to scum-zu saying that if he knows vp is town.

[elvis_knits]

No, but why suggest you might be getting bussed if he knows you're town?

[elvis_knits]

I am leaning Baltar, but I haven't looked at the pooky wagon again yet.

VP, the problem is this:

Not only was your wagon all town, but all the scum said weird scummy stuff about you, and they all skipped your wagon, going from SC to Xyl. Some, like Yos, even sounded like they thought you were scum, while he voted Xyl instead.

I agree that Pooky is not lillywhite though. He has scummy things about him, but your all-town wagon plus your interaction with known scum, is like sort of overwhelming.

Another thingI want to look at -- one of the last things zu said was a post accusing me to falling for buddying, seemingly angry at how I seem to let pooky off the hook. I want to reread and see what I think about that.

When is the deadline? Which is really the deadline for charter to stump... I think we should give ourselves a cushion of like a day there so that if charter doesn't/can't stump, we can lynch him. I am not lynching anyone else without charter proving his role.

But I do think charter is town and I appreciate his efforts to help me sort out the mess between VP and pooky.

[elvis_knits]

I got poked.

I will read what I intended to read today. Then I will give my thoughts.

[elvis_knits]

OMG...

Reading the beginning of Day 3...

serial, iam, thesp, pooky all try to get a VP wagon going.

rofl, yos, zu, tajo, all against VP wagon.

Then rofl wagon gets going to force his claim, which ends up much later resulting in tajo lynch. And we all know how that goes. But the way Day 3 starts and people wna tto return to the VP wagon after mislynching xyl, the reactions are so telling. I SEE NO POSSIBLE WAY VP IS NOT SCUM.

i don't think there's any chance that ojanen investigated baltar

Doing a re-read on ojanen now. Re-reading her, I doubt she investigated either eikM or VP; early in day 2 she voted eikM, and didn't mention VP, and later in day 2 she voted VP and didn't mention eikM.

-Day 2 started Augest 23rd, she voted eikM on the 24th, didn't vote VP until she did a iso read on him on the 28th. If she had a guilty on VP, I doubt she would someone else for 4 days and 8 posts.

Sorry, why is noone voting Baltar?

I'm not sure that's a logical case, until we know VP's alignment. I mean, I could just as easily say that the wagon on you came very close to a lynch and then was massively derailed by the VP Baller wagon.

It's especially iffy since your case against VP seems to be assuming that ROFL is scum, and I tend to doubt that.

Vote: VP Baltar

Do not look at my scumlist in post 1157

My argument to lynch Baltar is for ALL the reasons he should have been lynched yesterday (which you voted for, coincidentally)
PLUS the fact that it's hard to explain the shift away from him to a different townie if VP is town
PLUS the fact the wagon is now more sound due to the flips of those that were pushing it

i'd put baltar higher than either kmd or IAM on the list of "i think are scum" tho.

mostly cuz after yesterday you'd expect the push to be for baltar due to the whole gooncop pointing at baltar all day yesterday. instead iam opens up with this comment about how VP baltar is still scum then pushes at me with a vote.

Vote: VP Baltar.

I thought VP Baltar was scummy yesterday, but I'm really uncomfortable with the line of reasoning people are using. They're basically one of the below:

1. "There are two people who were attacking him yesterday who we now know are pro-town!" Translation: the scum killed someone last night who was attacking VP Balter yesterday, except no one seems to want to put it that way, I guess because if they did then it would be obvious that it was a weak WIFOM argument.

2. "A goon cop was voting him!" Do you really think she had a guilty on him? It seems pretty clear to me that she didn't, reading her posts. She didn't "waffle" on her initial vote, she came out hard against eikM and stayed there for a long time.

That being said, I'm really not happy with VP's level of contribution this game; he hasn't been lurking, but he hasn't really been scumhunting much either. VP, who do you think is scum, and why?

i don't like the return to the vp baltar wagon. i think he's telling the truth about his role.

I got a feeling Baltar is not the way to go. I doubt he was investigated by Ojanen. She did not even mention him until others voiced their suspicions of him.

Pooky has done nothing to easy my suspicions. His argument against VP Baltar is: "Well, Goon Cop voted him." Also, he is trying to misinterpret KMD. It looks like he grabs whatever argument is conveniently lying around, regardless of its value, instead of actual scumhunting.

VP IS SCUM. I AM VOTING HIM. NO POSSIBLE WAY ALL SCUMBAGS BACK YOU UP LIKE THAT WHEN A BUNCHA TOWNS WANT YOU DEAD.

Even Yos, who made a soft buss on VP day2 protected VP on Day3.

VP IS SCUM.

[elvis_knits]

I think you're supposed to say "I AM A TREESTUMP."

[elvis_knits]

BLAH.

Who cares.

Charter is not scum.

vote vp baltar

[elvis_knits]

charter, if your stumping didn't count, feel free to just vote VP. He has to be scum. I don't care about you stumping at this point.

[elvis_knits]

Pooky hasn't voted VP Baltar? What is his problem?! lol... pooky!

[elvis_knits]

I'm not sure if charter's stump counts but I don't think it matters.

VP is a very bad man!

[elvis_knits]

charter maybe you should vote VP just in case the stump didn't count?

[elvis_knits]

I hope that was townie enthusiasm...

Now I'm paranoid.

ACK, mith put me out of my misery!

[elvis_knits]

OMG! Good game everyone!

That was a scary ending! VP, you made it pretty far. It was just how all your buddies defended you. Did you guys plan it all, with the claims? Was that spur of the moment or a big plan? It almost worked...

Looking back at my old scum lists is painful. I blame my love of bunnies. I was really hoping not to screw up the endgame... I didn't want to let down all the townies I stupidly helped slaughter.

Anyway... I had lots of fun. This /invitiational thing was such a good idea. I loved playing with this group of people.

[elvis_knits]

And thanks to mith, I really enjoyed his scenes. I loved the psychic monkeys and playing DDR on the dead bodies of rofl and Yos.

[elvis_knits]

God, xyl, such a buzzkill...

I realize I made several mistakes.

But, Xyl, your play did not inspire trust. You didn't make cases, and threw your vote around. I admit you were right about who you thought was scum. I think you deserve a lot of credit for that. But the way you went about convincing people did not work for me. Simply repeating "read vp baltar" does not inspire me, nor does it make me want to spend time making a case on someone

you

want to lynch.

[elvis_knits]

It was pretty gutsy for the scum to protect and confirm each other like they did. I've always wanted to do that but been too chicken. I think it could have worked if they had bussed someone. Could have given them some town cred and confused everything a bit more.

[elvis_knits]

I think it could have worked with some minor alterations. It seems like some of it was spur of the moment though, and if they had planned more it could have worked. It would have been cool. It gives me a lot of ideas for how to play scum, and I usually hate being scum. I think I have to go sign up for a game now and cross my fingers...