[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Elephant Hell]

1-shot C9

2 Mafiosi

1 1-shot Cop (Sane)
1 1-shot Doc (Sane)
3 Townies

Possible alternative: 50% chance each of Cop or Doc being 1-shot. Might be better as 1-shot C9+2.

[Elephant Hell]

1-shot C9

2 Mafiosi

1 from: 1-shot Cop (Sane), Townie (50% chance of each)
1 from: 1-shot Doc (Sane), Townie (50% chance of each)
3 Townies

Daystart.

[Elephant Hell]

I was debating making the town power roles full rather than 1-shot if one of them was in the game, but then they'd know how many power roles there are. Regarding it being worse for the town, that's why I suggested it might be better if it was C9+2 (although not really C9). Would having it as 2 Mafiosi, 1 1-shot Cop, 1 1-shot Doc and 5 Townies be better than the original version?

[Elephant Hell]

Given that the issue with the original was about being called a C9 without actually being one, I think that's fine.

1-shot Micro

2 Mafiosi

1 1-shot Cop (Sane)
1 1-shot Doc (Sane)
3 Townies

Daystart.

[Elephant Hell]

If they're counterclaimed, or the Mafia claims first and is counterclaimed, the Doc won't know who to protect (assuming neither player is particularly scummy or obviously town). There is a problem if the Cop investigates the other partner and outs both scum, but then the Mafia just has to try and conceal their connection in the first day to avoid this.

There's also the possibility that the Cop's investigation target and the mafia's victim are the same, leaving the Cop with no evidence and the Doc having used their ability - then the fake Cop could claim with their result and try and get a lynch (not sure how easy that would be, but if successful it would end with a Mafia victory).

In any case the Mafia basically loses if the town decides to test the claim by lynching the fake Cop day 1 (probably the optimal play at that stage). The best case scenario for the Mafia if the town decides to test the claims is that they kill the Cop first, then the fake Cop second, leaving the last Mafioso in a 3-player endgame if the Doc doesn't successfully protect on either night. But I might be wrong about some or all of this post.

[Elephant Hell]

Alternatively, a 1-shot Macho Cop would work, or a 1-shot Jailkeeper. Basically any of the C9 variants designed to prevent follow-the-cop play (can't remember any of the others right now - there is the Unlicensed Doctor, but when the roles are known that's exactly the same as the Macho Cop). I think that making the Doc have a 50% probability of existing might not solve the problem, as the Cop might just claim anyway and treat the game as a lottery.

Anyway: Cop claims day 1, a Townie gets lynched. During the night a Townie dies, the Doc protects the Cop who investigates a player, 40% chance of finding scum, 40% chacne of finding living town, 20% chance of finding dead town. Assuming they find a Mafioso, the Mafioso gets lynched and the Cop gets nightkilled, leading to an endgame of 1 Mafioso vs 2 uncleared town players. Assuming they find a town player, the Mafia can either try to force through a lynch on the sole uncleared town player or they can get lynched, kill the Cop or confirmed innocent and go to an endgame of 1 Mafioso vs 1 uncleared town player and 1 cleared town player. Assuming they target a player who is killed during the night they have nothing, leading to a regular 2 Mafioso, 3 Townie endgame (except the Cop might look suspicious). In all three cases the Mafia isn't guaranteed to lose - it's just that if the Cop successfully investigates a player then the game is almost guaranteed to come down to a 3-player endgame. This is all assuming that the Doc doesn't get lynched (they would probably claim and avoid that though). Again, I may have made a mistake somewhere here.

[Elephant Hell]

In my opinion you're overcomplicating things with your suggestions. It would be far simpler to have a 1-shot Even-night Deputy/Odd-night Nurse secret Serial Killer/Psychiatrist Stump who becomes a Compulsive Day-Suicidebomber (also 1-shot) in lynch or lose situations.

:/

[Elephant Hell]

Cowardly Mafia

2 Bulletproof Mafiosi
1 Compulsive Vigilante
9 Townies
Daystart

Whilst the Vigilante is alive, the Mafia can't kill but can roleblock (the ability is shared like a regular nightkill). When the Vigilante dies they can kill again but can't block (not that they'd want to). In other words the Vig functions as a public Cop of sorts whilst alive (but people can be 'framed' by the blocking) and the game is a regular 2v10 once the Vig dies. Not sure if this situation is normal though.

[Elephant Hell]

The Vig is Compulsive, so they have to kill every night. If they claim and aren't counterclaimed then the town has a confirmed townie, but someone will still die each night (unless the Vig targets a Mafioso or, more likely given that they've revealed themselves, targets a Townie and is roleblocked, creating the illusion of them having targeted a Mafioso). Effectively the game will never be nightless, because as long as the Vig or at least one Mafioso is alive someone can nightkill.

Alternatively the scum could get both abilities from the start, as Crazy suggested.

[Elephant Hell]

Cowardly Mafia v2

2 Bulletproof Mafiosi
1 Compulsive Vigilante
9 Townies
Daystart

Mafia have a shared roleblock ability. If one dies, the other may both roleblock and kill in the same night.

Non-setup-editing edit: If the Mafia can kill from the start, should the Vig be Compulsive or just a regular Vig? The aim with making the Vig Compulsive was that there would always be a nightkill (except under certain conditions), but I think that 2 nightkills on most nights would be unbalanced in the Mafia's favour.

[Elephant Hell]

Hm, Scum can now win after 2 mislynches

Yeah, that's what I was worried about, although it's 3 mislynches and the Vig has to mistarget each time (whilst not being killed by the Mafia). The Vig could actually keep targeting the same person if their nightkill isn't successful to avoid killing townies/to confirm the Bulletproof-ness of their target (unless the Mafia roleblocks again). However, I think you're right in that the original idea would work better if the scum had a shared Bus Driving ability. If the Vig claims and the town uses their kill as another lynch the scum get the Vig to kill themself. Works better than the roleblock and stops the Vig from claiming too hastily (of course, the Vig could still claim and not let the town decide on their target).
---

Cowardly Mafia v3

2 Bulletproof Mafiosi
1 Compulsive Vigilante
9 Townies
Daystart

Mafia has a shared Bus Driving ability, but no nightkill ability until the Compulsive Vigilante dies, at which point they gain a nightkill ability but lose the Bus Driving ability.
---
Alternatively, what if the Mafia have a kill right from the start but it's only successful on the Vig until the Vig is dead? However, maybe that's not normal enough for an Open game.

[Elephant Hell]

If the Vig gets close to being lynched they'll probably claim, so I don't think the Gunsmith ability would be too helpful (unless the goal is for them to find the Vig and then predict their target, killing the Vig by Bus Driving them and their target).

Basically there has to be some kind of disincentive for the town to lynch the Vig straight off. Giving the Mafia the nightkill works out, so I think that v4 (v3 without the Bus Drive ability loss) is roughly balanced, but there might be a better way to do it. Another option would be to increase the number of Mafiosi to 3 but don't ever give them a nightkill, but then there's no reason for the Vig not to claim and get lynched as soon as possible.

Cowardly Mafia v4

2 Bulletproof Mafiosi
1 Compulsive Vigilante
9 Townies

The Mafiosi have a shared Bus Drive ability rather than a nightkill, but gain a nightkill ability on the night after the Compulsive Vigilante dies.

Non-setup-editing edit: Innocents to Townies, no real change.

[Elephant Hell]

I guess the purpose of the Gunsmith would be to push to Vig towards a lynch so that they claim and can

then

be killed by Bus Driving them and their target, but I think that the Vig is bound to claim at some point, being the only power role in a game with no Mafia nightkills whilst they're alive. Either they'll claim day 1, claim when their target doesn't die or claim when they're near to lynch (or at least, that's what I predict, which might not actually be true).

[Elephant Hell]

ortolan: the Mafia can Bus Drive scummy players with non-scummy players even if they don't know who the Vig is. Even though the Vig would know what happened if the victim is different to their target, they can't be sure that the player they originally targeted is just scummy but pro-town or actually part of the Mafia.

Optionally they could get an extra Mafioso or maybe get a shared Roleblock in addition to the Bus Drive, but I think that makes it less balanced or more complicated than it needs to be respectively.

[Elephant Hell]

now that i think of it cowardly v4 is probably more balanced with a mafia gunsmith ability.

Probably true (I probably overestimated the likelyhood of the Vig claiming, although it's still pretty high).

Cowardly Mafia v5

...Revenge of Cowardly Mafia
2 Bulletproof Mafiosi
1 Compulsive Vigilante
9 Townies

The Mafia has no nightkill but 2 shared abilities: Gunsmith (detects Compulsive Vigilante) and Bus Drive. Either Mafioso may use either ability. They gain a shared nightkill ability in the night after the Compulsive Vigilante dies.

[Elephant Hell]

Cowardly Mafia again

3 Bulletproof Mafiosi
1 Compulsive Vigilante
8 Townies

Mafia may only make a single nightkill until the Vig dies, at which point they can kill on every night.

snip

[Elephant Hell]

Even if a mafioso is lynched they can kill a mason so that the game goes to pretty much the same situation (lylo with a single Townie in the middle).

Tit for Tat Mafia

1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Mafia Role Cop
1 Mafia Nurse
1 Doctor
1 Vigilante
1 Deputy
6 Townies

Daystart. All roles where sanity is a question are confirmed-sane. If the Mafia Nurse becomes a Doctor they can self-protect.

[Elephant Hell]

1) Mafia Doc can't self-protect then (the reason I included that in the first place was because they're more likely to gain their ability later in the game when there may be fewer mafiosi to protect, if any, but I can see why that would end up overpowered).
2) Vig is necessary to make the Mafia Doc useful, as Alduskkel mentioned. Additionally, as it stands both sides have 2 power roles and 1 backup. You

could

make a Mafia Vig Backup that gains an extra 1-shot kill (can't be used on the same night as the normal kill). However, that might push the balance against the Mafia.
3) farside: Rolecop gets the actual role, but the Deputy just becomes a regular Cop. Maybe it would be more balanced (but more swingy) if the Deputy became a Rolecop too.
4) Regarding the Mafia Doc revealing themselves as scum if self-protecting against the Vig: Doc could protect a scummy town player, or as stated the Vig could be roleblocked. Of course, maybe they

do

self-protect against a kill - but they can still lie. You could do this the other way as well, with a Mafia player claiming to be the Vig and that they were blocked when trying to kill someone they actually suspect of being the Deputy, for example. However, I'm not sure how likely/desirable those scenarios are, and the situation is avoided if the self-protect is removed.

I suppose that you could do the following:
1 Mafia Vig Backup
1 Mafia Nurse
1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 1-shot Vigilante
1 Doc
1 Deputy
1 Roleblocker Backup
4 Townies

Nightless, or at least the Mafia can't nightkill. This might be getting too swingy/not normal though.

EDIT: A variation on this theme:
1 Mafioso
1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Mafia Doc
1 Deputy
1 Doc
1 Cop Enabler
1 Doc Enabler
5 Townies

[Elephant Hell]

Problem here I guess is a mafia version of "follow the cop."

Not as much of a problem though, because a) the majority is trying to lynch the Mafia during the day and b) if the Vig's kill is prevented chances are they've targeted a Mafioso.

So in that case:

Tit for Tat Mafia v2

1 Mafia Doctor
1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Mafia Roleblocker Backup
1 Vigilante
1 Nurse
1 Deputy
1 Roleblocker
5 Townies

Day start.

Currently the mafia gains less from the town, but I guess that's made up for by the relatively powerful initial combination of Cop and Doc.

Adel: I'm guessing that if one Mime is NKed whilst the other is alive, the Mime leaves the game. Anyway, it seems like the game becomes pretty swingy around the time when the first Mime dies as basically everyone tries to kill/identify the second one. I suppose a lot would depend on whether the Watcher managed to target anyone blocked by the Mimes up until that point (there'd be a little bit of uncertainty at that point depending on whether the Watcher saw a killing role that was roleblocked, but it could probably be sorted out with roleclaims). Of course, whether the Watcher claims depends on how well they've been doing against the Mafia as well.

[Elephant Hell]

Vig killing the Mafia Doc or Rolecop night 1 is statistically more likely (provided that they're alive and make a kill).

In my opinion the original version is mostly okay barring the RBer/Rolecop problem. However, the RBer isn't there for any particular reason - I just included it because it's a fairly standard Mafia role. It could be replaced with a different Mafia role e.g. Godfather. What if the Doc/Nurse were swapped out for Jailkeeper/JK backup as well? That prevents any kind of follow-the-cop scenario, and reduces the strength of the Rolecop+role-with-RB-effect combination. Maybe the RBer should become a Hitman (kill can't be protected against/roleblocked)?

So something like this:
1 Mafia Hitman
1 Mafia Jailkeeper Backup
1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Vigilante
1 Jailkeeper
1 Deputy
6 Townies

[Elephant Hell]

shaft.ed: the main problems people seemed to have were a) self-protecting Mafia Doc, b) Cop+Doc on the Mafia side (obviously also on the town side, but Mafia moreso because they know each other) and c) Rolecop+RBer on the Mafia side. Those seem to have been solved with the current setup by the JKer, lack of an RBer and lack of self-protection, so barring any other issues it should be fine as this:

Tit for Tat Mafia v3

1 Mafioso
1 Mafia Jailkeeper
1 Mafia Deputy

1 Vigilante
1 Jailkeeper Backup
1 Cop
6 Townies

Day start. Mafia Deputy becomes a Rolecop if the Cop dies before them, rather than a regular Cop.

[Elephant Hell]

[quoe]Can the jailkeeper jailkeep and kill at the same time? Can the deputy investigate and kill at the same time? [/quote]Good question. The options would be either that they can, but only if they're the last alive, or that they can't. I'd go for the former, personally.

[Elephant Hell]

Dictator Mafia

2 Rebels
6 Citizens
3 Bodyguards
1 Dictator

Daystart. Rebels = Mafiosi, and when the last one dies they may make a vengeance kill (during the day). Citizens = Townies. Bodyguards = 1-shot Doctors, who are also aware of each other's identities and the Dictator's identity. Dictator = Survivor, aware of his Bodyguard's identities.

If the Dictator dies, the remaining Bodyguards become Mafiosi with full night-talking and a nightkill, and the remaining Rebels (if there are any) become Masons with no nightkill or vengeance kill.

In game 1 (Dictator alive), roles have the following win cons:
Rebels: cannot win yet
Citizens: win if Rebels are dead and Dictator is alive
Bodyguards: win if Rebels are dead and Dictator is alive
Dictator: wins if Rebels are dead and he is alive

In game 2 (Dictator dead), roles have the following win cons:
Rebels: win if Bodyguards are dead and at least one non-Bodyguard is alive
Citizens: win if Bodyguards are dead and at least one non-Bodyguard is alive
Bodyguards: win if all non-Bodyguards are dead and at least one Bodyguard is alive

1) Is this normal enough? I'm not sure, edging towards it not being normal.
2) Is the alignment change alright? It doesn't fall prey to a few of the major problems of, for example, Cults (one difference being that the change is fully expected and another being that the change is universal, so the same tells apply before and after). However, it's still an alignment change so...
3) Does the setup marginalise the townies?

[Elephant Hell]

If all Bodyguards die, and all Rebels are alive, it is in the towns best interest to kill the Dictator.

It is effectively an instant win for the Rebels and Citizens, yes. In this situation the Rebels can claim and can't be countered, so no matter how long it takes they'll outnumber the Dictator in the end. To prevent this from happening there's a moderately large number of Bodyguards (which also means that they can afford to gambit and have two claim Rebel)

Also, it is interesting to note that there are situations in which the Bodyguards would want to kill the Dictator.

I've discussed this for a little while with someone else, and we came to the general conclusion that it's not in the Bodyguards' favour to betray the Dictator at any point other than potential endgames. If they out him at any time in a non-endgame scenario the Rebels can kill him at their leisure, so the Citizens will also turn, but the Rebels also have no incentive to kill the Dictator immediately. The situation becomes 2 Vig/Masons and 6 Townies vs 3 1-shot Doc non-communicating, non-killing Mafiosi and 1 Survivor. That and the Survivor and 'Mafia' oppose one another.

When you get down to endgame scenarios, things change, but not too much. For example:
1 Rebel left
1 Citizen
3 Bodyguards
1 Dictator

If the Bodyguards try to lynch the Dictator then they'll come up against resistance in the form of the Citizen, the Rebel and the Dictator, all of whom know the situation and will lose if the Dictator is lynched. The Bodyguards won't be able to easily secure a lynch unless they obscure the Dictator's identity. I think in the above scenario it would be better for the four anti-town players to just try lynching one of the remaining two, trying to avoid distinguishing between the Dictator and themselves, and then lynch the other on the following day. In summary, any situation where the Bodyguards want to kill the Dictator is probably a good situation for them to win without killing the Dictator.

I'm just thinking about endgame scenarios though; you may have been considering something different.

In response to both, I think that there

should

be a few instances where betraying the Dictator is good for either the Citizens or the Bodyguards.

...Generally, though, this seems like a clusterfuck of 'playing to win with current win con' and 'playing to win for future win con' playing.

[Elephant Hell]

There's no solid information of any kind to base the lynch on, and not enough time in which to discuss things. Maybe 4 Townies with 1 Mafioso who has to make a kill. Then again, there's no informed minority in either of them, and depending on who you ask that makes them non-Mafia.