Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[Albert B. Rampage]

No I think you're a good candidate for lynch

[xRECKONERx]

K. I honestly have nothing to defend against, so lynch away. Pretty much baseless attacks here.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Well, you can explain your thought process Day 1

[xRECKONERx]

What did I not explain clearly

[Albert B. Rampage]

Just start from the moment you replaced in, what was going through your head

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Unvote DDD, vote Reck

DDD, any content? Anything??

SC says I get bonus points if I don't provide reasons in helping lynch rec.

You also didn't answer my question earlier.

[Head_Honcho]

Voter? I hardly know 'er:

Sando(1): Vi
hitogoroshi(3): Ojanen, xRECKONERx, Sando
xRECKONERx(4): Debonair Danny DiPietro, Zorblag, SerialClergyman, Albert B. Rampage

Not Voting(2): VP Baltar, hitogoroshi
With 10 alive it's 6 to lynch.

[Ojanen]

I'm starting to like a DDD lynch simply because his playstyle would be too annoying to lose to if he's scum.

[VP Baltar]

I've considered Reck pretteh suspicious for a while now. I get the feeling he doesn't know who to NK and he's asking me to class players so he can make a more informed NK. I don't like his play Day 1, it was like he was looking for any excuse to jump off the charlatan bandwagon even though charlie was his suspect. A lot more but that's all I can post for now.

Yep, I agree with this. Reck always plays scummy in my eyes, but he was definitely dancing around the charlie and PCE wagons yesterday. Then today he comes out and says both of the leading wagons today are a good idea while asking ABR repeatedly for advice. If he wasn't at L-2 so early in the day that's where my vote would be.

[VP Baltar]

K. I honestly have nothing to defend against, so lynch away. Pretty much baseless attacks here.

I have some stuff I need to bring up, but I'll need some free time to gather the quotes and such. Most likely this afternoon.

[Vi]

Why did you find charlatan scummy for the "fencesitting on VP/ABR" line of questioning when the same exchange felt originally like bussing to you and you seem to regularly think two arguing parties could be bussing? Like your top suspects PCE/Sando here now again?

This.

Just start from the moment you replaced in, what was going through your head

Very much this.

xRx: If you've dropped your suspicion of hitoExpress when PCE replaced out, why is your vote still on him?

---

I still find his response to

that

scummy, I think he was active-lurking for much of D1, and I think he went out of his way to avoid the Charlatan issue.

Um... PCE didn't respond to "that", except to say that he was drunk. Unless I'm misreading again.

A-lurking, well, etc. I didn't get the sense that it was particularly malicious though.

I take that to mean you find this scummy?

It didn’t seem prudent to bring Charlatan to the brink of lynching when a new player was replacing in.

---

Ojanen. Has your opinion changed on SerialClergyman yet?

[hitogoroshi]

Iso Spectacular, Part I

Albert B. Rampage

I admit my eyes glaze over with his early stuff. He goes on a huge VP attack which apparently doesn't count because

That's Our Albert!

(tm) and what the hell ever I have no interest in opening that can of worms.

The first post that made me just stop and stare was ISO 51. Takes DDD's weak OMGUS and calls it good posting, and yet FOS's DDD for a relatively trivial point. His 'top three' scumlist has two townies on it. I don't know what that means for the third member of that list (DDD).

And reading his next few posts in ISO is just wacky. Clearly ranks his list in the order, charltan is most scummy, DDD is second, amish is third. And then suddenly porkchop express out of nowhere?

It's very very interesting to watch the flow of ABR's opinion in isolation. It starts with, well, porkchop hasn't posted much and we can use charlie's posts against him on later days. But then suddenly, PCE goes from being hard to read to 85% scum, and other people's cases on charlatan are scummy, and then this little gem:

Let me surmise the case on charlatan: he makes bad arguments. He doesn't read the game like everyone else. He changes his mind often. That's IT.

If you can give better reasons than that, go ahead and post them. I'm just not seeing it right now.

How about your case from sixteen ISO posts ago, are those good reasons?

Note: ISO viewing crapped out for some reason and ate some Albert posts (as in, posts that he did make didn't show up in ISO). I caught it this time because of his L-1 vote on charlatan not appearing, but this glitch could happen again in the future (I have no idea what caused it) so if it seems like I'm ignoring a specific post, please link to it when making a point of that nature.

So, Albert, let me see if I've got this straight. You thought charltan was scum. Then you decided to switch to PCE because he was 'pretteh scummeh'. Then, you started pointing out bunk cases on charlatan. After that, you went on to say PCE was 85% scum and charlie was almost certainly town. But after saying that you go back to charlatan ANYWAY because you want the day to end (which is understandable, that was a bugger of a long day) and start the next day...'not certain whether or not PCE is scum' despite being so certain d1 and now hopping on the reckoner wagon. The times you mentioned scien were largely positive (QFT, nothing to bother me, etc.) and you ended up teaming up with reckoner to end the day. And yet you're now saying you've thought him scummy for a while? Have I covered everything alright here, Albert?

I don't even know what I think this means in terms of alignment. I think my ISO's on the others are gonna be necessary to fit Albert anywhere in my mental picture of this game – remind me to voice my opinion on him again in a few pages.

-------------------------------

Amished

Alright, I get to pick at the posts of a confirmed townie early. This is a helpful resource. That being said, I'm inclined to disregard his early stuff because while you want to look at the whole picture for alignment-uncertain people, it's more important to look at the last thoughts on the mind of the confirmed townie to see what reads they would actually want us looking in to.

I'm inclined to disregard his replacement scumtell, if only because it would hit me as townie – I'm posting the iso's in four sets of three regarding each slot, so yeah, I'm gonna comment on myself, and if I did something scummy I'm going to point that out. Maybe it's more applicible to some people. I do remember that reckoner had a very loose, no-format catch up post so maybe it'll be more applicible there? I'll keep this in my mind for the reckoner iso, but honestly I don't put much stock in to it.

Amish's reads were surprisngly consistant. I'll admit the reckoner wagon seemed somewhat arbitrary on first read, but I like it more knowing it was the main aim of the confirmed townie. His other major reads were PCE being townie (and my knowledge he's right makes me put all the more stock into his thoughts) and Sando/charlatan being scum. He was obviously wrong on the second, but the first is worth some investigation. When I think back on my read of the thread I can't think of anything sando did.

I'm gonna leave my amish iso-read there because this is already getting very long and I want to get this stuff posted in a reasonable time frame.

--------------------------

Charlatan

Looking at the other confirmed townie early due to the whole alphabet thing. This is helpful for me because I SHOULD have my perception colored by what other townies thought; but it kind of sucks for you guys because I'm sure what you're waiting on is my thoughts on the other living players. I'll try to get my next three-pack out quickly.

I don't want to jump in to all of the walls, but let's get the highlights reel. He has a lot to say on VP. I know VP (like myself!) doesn't like a day dragging on too long so I don't agree about the 'sense of urgency' being a scumtell. What is a bit of a scumtell is that VP responsded by saying 'where is the sense of urgency?'. I think charlatan pretty accuratley summed up VP's posistion on him, and while it's a posistion I can see town-VP holding the fact that he rushed to distance himself from it is worrisome. But for now let's tuck that line of inquiry away for the VP iso.

Charlatan ended with a vote on reckoner? This wagon keeps getting more and more delicious.

His little final point at Zorblag is a bit interesting to me if only because I can't remember anyone ever suspecting zorblag of anything.

I'll leave my musing here and head off to my last lecture of the day. I'll be back with more very, very soon.

[Albert B. Rampage]

You have it down pat.

"How about your case from sixteen ISO posts ago, are those good reasons?"

If you look at that post, what it says is that charlatan made bad arguments against SC and played pretty bad the whole time. Which is what I've always said. Yes, those reasons are good for a vote but not for a lynch.

I voted charlatan at first because I wanted him to back down and admit he was completely wrong. He was active and if he was more open-minded I would have defended him to the hilt. But he continued with his streak of bad arguments and I had no choice but to let him go in the end.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Let us not forget that RECK would have a great reason to get rid of Amished on night 1.

[Albert B. Rampage]

The scum's QT talk last night was probably something like "NK Amished Bus RECK gain cred" imo.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, let me show what I mean about Reckoner hanging out around whatever lynch he can get to go through:

What really struck me first yesterday was his switch to Porkchop for no apparent reason other than ABR asking him to do so.

His scumlist before that was:

SCUMMEH:
charlatan
PorkchopExpress
DDD

PRETTEH SCUMMEH:
VP Baltar
Sando

NEUTRAL:
Amished
Ojanen
Albert B Rampage

TOWNEE:
Zorblag
Vi
SC

<3

I questioned him why he would vote PCE (who he actually spent very little time talking about catching up post) and his reasoning was:

Note. My scumlist isn't really in order of scumminess, it's more of a clusterfuck of people who I feel are the same levels of scumminess. So, PCE = charlatan, not the other way around.

More PCE votes plz

Which is a bit meh of an explanation to me. I don't believe everyone in every category of his list is equal in his mind, particularly since he was pushing much harder toward PCE even though he had given more concrete reasons for wanting charlatan lynched.

Now, keep in mind with his equal lynch business it seems odd when he says:

To be completely honest, at the risk of sounding like charlatan's fence-sitting, I only prefer a PCE-lynch like 50%, a charlatan lynch 35%, and a DDD lynch 15%.

I guess they aren't equal...and the main reason is "PCE isn't contributing".

Then in an attempt to understand whatever Reckoner's reasoning for staying on the PCE wagon even though he finds charlatan scummy, I ask him who he thinks could be the scum pushing the charlatan wagon. He says I am, but won't comment on anyone else and says that they are likely both scum being run up....which is about as ridiculous as one can get.

And then, finally, after all of this asinine dialogue ABR says to Reckoner:

Actually Reck, what I meant to ask you in 560 was "What say you we lynch charlatan right here and now?".

And then Reck hammers in his next post. So, yeah, I don't like internal inconsistencies such as "all my scum suspects are equal", "No, wait no they're not", "PCE is more likely to be scum and could be a threat later in the game", "Hammer Charlatan".

Today he comes out and prefers the popular Sando and PCE lynches. He says:

That being said, I'm still liking a PCE lynch, but after reviewing the game, I'm starting to like a Sando lynch even more/equally as much, with DDD coming in right behind the both of them.

I have a question here, Reck, what from your "reviewing" made you like the Sando lynch even more than PCE?

We also get:

Actually, I don't think they're bussing - I think PCE/Sando could either be scum.

which is the same bullshit false dichotomy we got yesterday about PCE and charlatan.

[hitogoroshi]

Iso Spectacular, Part II

Debonair Danny DiPietro

I join the ranks of everyone else not liking DDD's I'll wait until I see something scummy to start running with post. And then there is his disgustingly OMGUS vote on Amished. I'd have more to say if I had been there at the time, but I think most people have pretty well taken him to task on this already.


I also really, really dislike this quote in his ISO 16:

You couldn't get a read on me; sounds like the problem is on your end, not mine.

and this similar quote from ISO 18:

If Amished had initially said that he wasn’t getting a read on me that would’ve been acceptable. Instead he put it together as a lurker pressure vote, without actually attempting to engage me in a fashion that would actually help him get a read on me.

So we're not allowed to pressure vote others, but instead, should just 'attempt to engage' them? Presumably into a productive conversation regarding the matter of whether or not they are the ones trying to murder us?



But of course this is all apparently DDD's meta. Personally if that was my meta (and something like it was) I would view that as more of an issue to solve than anything, but it's easy for me to be lenient since apparently this day is what DDD was lurking with great anticipation toward. More importantly, the amish and charlatan posthumous suspicions make it hard for me to dislike someone on the Reckoner wagon right now. So as gross as it feels for me to say this, I'm basically just gonna count DDD as a no-read and start from scratch right now. :/

Ojanen

So Ojanen was sick twice and traveling during D1, if I remember correctly. I'll ratchet down my expectations accordingly, I guess.

The early game is a lot of floating and a lot of questions. If nothing else, she seems to at least be fairly self-aware of this.

I don't know what to make of her voting/making a case on VP and expressing dislike of the prevailing wagon, and then three posts later unvoting VP and calling charlatans suspicion of him a scumtell.

I would be a lot more angry at Ojanen if I didn't really like her most recent content. Okay, admittedly, I think it'd be pretty cool if she stopped voting for me, but her reasoning seems to be solid enough and I love post 636 a big huggy bunch. If she keeps posting like that and less like the start I've got no problem with her.

Porkchop Express (and hitogoroshi)

Yes I am iso-ing myself. Ghost of amish, you can shove your scumtell up your ass.

Wow, and I thought DDD was lurking.

To be honest, I think you guys are being a bit mean on PCE. Of course I'm biased because I know he's not scum, but even so, it seemed to be picking on his lack of activity more than anything. Maybe I'm not trying hard enough, but I can't see anything scummy coming out of this slot (and believe me, I can appreciate when I as town replace in to a scummy slot).

I'm liking the sando suspicion – I said in my amished iso that I was very much looking forward to iso-ing sando and having a second confirmed (though granted, only to me) townie gunning for him only increases that desire.

Sorry these three ISO's were so short - I pulled two players who were on the lower end of the content spectrum and then myself. Tomorrow (or tonight if I'm really motivated) I'll post the next three which should hopefully be much more substantial.

[xRECKONERx]

@Vi: didn't realize it was.

Unvote

.

@ABR: Or, scum was trying to set me up by killing one of my vocal supporters.

@VPB: At the time, yes, there was no way to distinguish scum in my mind. charlatan kept posting, whereas PCE just disappeared and lurked the whole damn time. I have nothing against people when they need to replace out, seriously, so it downgraded my scumview of him. Not sure why you think it's ridiculous for me to think both people are scum being run up on the wagon - I thought it was entirely plausible. My hammer on charlatan was simply because I wanted D1 to end. I wanted a flip, I wanted some information on which to go on. Charlatan really had nobody coming to his aid (as in, actively defending him as town, IIRC), so to me that meant he was either scum or VT. If he was mason, I felt like people would've been quite opposed to his lynch. And, IMO, since a PCE lynch didn't look like it was going to happen, lynching probable-scum/at-the-least-VT was the second best option.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I don't know, every time RECK posts something all I read is SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM.

It's weird and I don't want to be offensive but that's the goddamn truth.

[Vi]

@Vi: didn't realize it was.

Unvote

.

The point: You just missed it.

Then in an attempt to understand whatever Reckoner's reasoning for staying on the PCE wagon even though he finds charlatan scummy,

I ask him who he thinks could be the scum

pushing the charlatan wagon. He says I am, but

won't comment on anyone else

and says that they are likely both scum being run up....which is about as ridiculous as one can get.

The point: We just found it.

(Less cryptic version: I don't buy that you're interested in finding scum)

[xRECKONERx]

No no, don't feel like you're being offensive. VPB will tell you: my meta is pretty much that everyone finds me scummy as hell.

[Vi]

Defending self... check
Hunting scum... no check
Voting (alleged) top suspect... still no check

Nice priorities.

Unvote: Sando
Vote: xRECKONERx

(L-1)

[VP Baltar]

While your normal meta is to look generally scummy Reckoner, what is missing here is me seeing you have any actual desire to find scum instead of push lynches. There is a difference and even if your reasons for finding someone scummy are occasionally bad, you normally have them. I'm not seeing that so much this game.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Feel free to hammer whenever

[Sando]

Vi, what about me moving off Charlatan do you find scummy?

The second question will be better answered when you explain more to me about why you're voting Porky beyond

Yeah you're just avoiding the question now, I gave my reasons, you refused to answer what about me moving off Charlatan you found scummy?

By 'that' I meant the 'random vote' thing, and I don't remember him saying he was drunk regarding that, although that would have been a more satisfactory answer.

Unvote, Vote: Vi

And now an oportunistic jump onto Reck, noice one!

Not liking the way this lynch is happening on Reck;
DDD starts with 'well Reck was a good lynch yesterday'
Zorblag jumps on with 'pretty sure Reck is scum'
SC joins with 'hey let's lynch Reck and not post reasoning'
Albert jumps on with... nothing
Vi jumps on with 'well he's defending himself against this exhaustive case!'

The last 3 are the ones that really worry me.

Also, Hito aint done re-reading and posting yet, I wants his opinions.