Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!


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Post Post #1350 (ISO) » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:20 am

Post by VP Baltar »

Troll wrote:Unless people have a reason to think that hitogoroshi is town before today I have trouble seeing why no one else would be looking at his actions today and questioning his motives.
Yeah, don't worry, he's definitely not getting a free pass for anything. Even though it does appear to be Vi imo, contrivances like The Mechanism and then trying to tout himself as uber-town today don't sit well with me. If i'm alive tomorrow, I imagine it will basically be like restarting today and going back to square one for everything again.
DDD wrote:Or it means normal people aren't awake at 8 am on a Saturday, weirdo.
Damn lazy kids. I thought everyone had to work on Saturday mornings at 7 am...
DDD wrote:So I'm basically reduced to really hoping that Hito is Zorblag's scum partner so that when I get mislynched at least I can brag in post-game about how I was never wrong in this game; so exasperating.
Yer, but that's how the cookie crumbles. If I'm wrong, then sorry for my suckiness. I'll let you pick my next avatar as compensation if you flip town somehow.

Vi, wake up from your ice cream cake sugar-coma and give us some verbal diarrhea.
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Post Post #1351 (ISO) » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:40 am

Post by VP Baltar »

Well, you scumbags had your chance to talk. I'm leaving for a track meet now.

Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro


Hope I'm right because I really don't want to be sporting that Miley avatar.....
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Post Post #1352 (ISO) » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:59 am

Post by Vi »

Vote to Hammer: Debonair Danny DiPietro


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Post Post #1353 (ISO) » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:45 am

Post by Debonair Danny DiPietro »

VP Baltar wrote:Well, you scumbags had your chance to talk. I'm leaving for a track meet now.

Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro


Hope I'm right because I really don't want to be sporting that Miley avatar.....
Miley is too good for you.

GG Scum.
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Post Post #1354 (ISO) » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:49 pm

Post by VP Baltar »

Well, nerts. Vi, who's your partner? hito?
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Post Post #1355 (ISO) » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:52 pm

Post by Vi »

VP Baltar 1354 wrote:Well, nerts. Vi, who's your partner? hito?
Quickhammering aside, remember that it's poor form to give away the ending before the mod does.
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Post Post #1356 (ISO) » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:31 pm

Post by VP Baltar »

You're seriously going to make me wait?


You know I had you pegged and no way to convince anyone else that you were scum. :P Do you realize what I'm getting at?
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Post Post #1357 (ISO) » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:39 pm

Post by Vi »

VP Baltar 1356 wrote:You know I had you pegged and no way to convince anyone else that you were scum. :P Do you realize what I'm getting at?
Come out and say it. This game was compromised. You knew it, I knew it, DDD somehow
didn't
know it; and unfortunately due to the circumstances retribution could not be swift in coming.

Alternatively, you knew beyond a doubt that I was scum in LyLo, could have mislynched me very easily, and I still managed to survive.
I'm not bragging, but I'm reasonably bitter that it came to that.
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Post Post #1358 (ISO) » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:24 pm

Post by VP Baltar »

lol, you did a good job. You had too much town cred for me to actually push it and I was damn pissed about it. I felt pretty certain on DDD though, so I thought if I could get him knocked out you'd be easy as pie today.

Had I thought DDD was town, I might have tried to nudge him a bit to pick up xRx's slip from the other game and take you out now. Of course, I would have felt pretty damn cheap for that too, but only because I respect your play and I'd be pissed to lose over that.

It briefly crossed my mind that xRx was trying to WIFOM the hell out of me intentionally, but that seemed an elaborate play for him.

Oh well, GG. You won the war of attrition and my record in elite games continues to be rubbish.
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Post Post #1359 (ISO) » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:53 pm

Post by Vi »

Had you done more than you did to reference the ongoing game, I would definitely have pulled some strings and gotten the game canceled with a draw.
I usually don't take the whole "getting lynched" thing too well.

Also, I really hope I don't have to change my catchphrase from "Never Scum" to "Never Scum Except In Invitational Games". I mean seriously what.

---

Some other notes while we're waiting...

Now that you know the alignments of both parties involved, please don't ever start the game like this.
Everybody was kind enough to pretend this never happened, but all it did was needlessly annoy me and make the person in question look scummy.

Overall I think this setup favors Town, although this may be me coming from a scum standpoint. The scum -have- to kill Masons to avoid being boxed in by confirmed Townies at LyLo. What this means is that V. Townies who happen to be strong players or very Town-looking can most certainly survive to LyLo and the endgame, and there's not a thing scum can do about it - keeping someone in the game who is very unlikely to be scum is still better than keeping someone in the game who is impossible to be scum. The exception is if you-scum expect to crossvote with someone in 3P LyLo anyway. That's why Town-hunting actually makes this setup EASIER for Town as it goes on. Inversely, it's Town's game to lose by not looking Town enough.
Optimal play for Masons may be to simply coast, rather than leading the Town and making themselves good NKs by standard logic in addition to being required targets. Optimal play for V. Townies is probably to play a fairly quick game - "less chat, more splat" - at least until the Masons are compromised.

With that said, the kills and lynches in this game were pretty much all deserved when they came. charlatan was trying to be edgy and flopped spectacularly. xRx needs no mention. SerialClergyman gave up and
asked
to be lynched, and really was the only option available. DDD had a lot of positive things going for him, but drew undue suspicion onto himself by making it sound like it was all planned (even if it was, it sounded like scum crafting an alibi).
We thought Amished was a Mason for sure, and he was definitely one of the most pro-Town people D1. We were able to deduce the Masons with reasonable accuracy on N2 and definitely called them on N3; I'm not sure if I want to talk about how we found them out.

I feel like I'm lecturing and the game's not technically over besides, so I think that's all. Hopefully the mod will show up at his deadline.
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Post Post #1360 (ISO) » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:34 pm

Post by Head_Honcho »

How frustrating that must have been for DDD, he was right on the money too.

End of game Votecount:


Zorblag(1): Debonair Danny DiPietro
Debonair Danny DiPietro(3): Zorblag, VP Baltar, Vi


Debonair Danny DiPietro,
Vanilla Townie has been lynched Day 5.


Vi and Zorblag,
Mafia Goons
win in endgame.


Thanks for playing everyone. I hope the mafia will choose to post their quicktopic this game, as they deduced the masons with alarming accuracy. And on a personal note I'd like to thank some of you for not being dicks.
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Post Post #1361 (ISO) » Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:09 pm

Post by Zorblag »

Thanks for modding the game, Head_Honcho. I did enjoy the flavor along the way. It looks like things mostly went smoothly enough. I'm glad that the issue Vi and VP Baltar are talking about (which I can see but wasn't aware of till after the game was over) didn't have a serious effect on anything that happened in here as that would have been a huge shame. And that's all I'm going to have to say on that particular subject at this time.

Vi and xRECKONERx, you were both a pleasure to work with and I'd be happy to be on scum teams with either of you at any point. Vi did an excellent job anchoring the team and I was pretty sure that should it come to a 3 person LyLo Vi would be there and be in decent shape. xRECKONERx's entrance gave me some focus and I loved the scum list that had both Vi and I in the town category. What scum does that? Scien, if you continued to follow this at all I was disappointed to have you drop out when you did as my first thought when I saw the scum team was that the game should mostly be ours to lose. Hopefully everything is back under control and you're finding time to do fun things like playing mafia.

I don't care if the quick topic gets shared; I always assume they will when I post in them. I would e interested in seeing what the mason quick topic looked like.

I think that Head_Honcho exaggerates how efficiently we found the masons. As Vi said, we had them completely wrong on night one. Night two my opinion was that the Ojanen kill had to be made just to make it look like we were hunting masons and that it wasn't that important whether it hit a mason or not. She wasn't the person I thought was most likely (I think that was Sando at the time) but she was the one that I think most would have called a mason if they had to make a guess.

Vi and I disagree a bit about how restricted our movements were in the game but I'm probably more willing to leave confirmed town in a game than most people. From night two on if we ever didn't hit a mason then the masons were going to claim and we wouldn't have to worry about that aspect of the game anymore which would have been fine with me. It also would have taken any of the guesswork about what night kills had to be made and left time just to focus on other things (and not having to worry about looking too townie as we went.)

Vi, I know you wanted me to be a bit more proactive the start of the final day. My schedule worked against that a bit but I also feel that I work just a bit better under some pressure (as either alignment really) so I wanted to let that build some while I continued to get the lay of the land. I apologize if that made the last day more nerve wracking than it needed to be for you.

It was a pleasure playing with all of you. If anyone has any questions I'll be happy to answer them.

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Post Post #1362 (ISO) » Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:51 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Here's the QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/FuKBiLaaJ2a3

And honestly, this was an awesome game to keep up with. It's a shame I had to get lynched so early (thanks, predecessor :( ) but Vi and Troll handled it extremely well and used it to their advantage. I somehow always had a gut feeling that DDD would be the final mislynch. If I hadn't been backed into a corner with ABR (fucking mason fucking fuck fuck fuck!) I could've probably gotten him strung up too after my flip.

And I gotta say... Vi & Troll are quite astute. They pegged the masons fairly well, and I was still scratching my head like... holy shit, how'd they do that?
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Post Post #1363 (ISO) » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:20 am

Post by VP Baltar »

Reck, I don't think your lynch had anything to do with your predecessor. In fact, I would say it had absolutely nothing to do with it. And I don't want to do a bunch of finger wagging, but you seriously need to be careful when discussing ongoing games. If I didn't care about the integrity of this game, I very easily could have gotten Vi lynched on that alone. [/lecture]

In terms of play this game, damn you Trolllllllllllll! I think you're scum in every single game I've ever been in with you, so I'm just going to start lynching you without question in the future. Hope you don't mind. :) You played very well in endgame though. Your MO (might orbots?) seems to be grab up a ton of suspicion and then do an unbelievable amount of work to dig yourself out.

Vi, I never really considered you a suspect until endgame. I think all of the scum roles you've been getting lately have really upped your game as scum and I'm having a hard time seeing the differences between that and your town play. I think some closer analysis of this is required from me in the future, lest I continue to go down this path of letting you slide.

I don't think the charlatan or SC lynches were undeserved. To me, you guys honestly looked the scummiest and when pressure came down on you I don't think it was handled well. DDD is probably worth feeling bad about, but mostly in the sense that it cost us the game. I really don't like that you've brought your town meta down to this to help your scum game. It makes it impossible to read you in a positive light without having major misgivings that you're playing everyone. It's your choice obviously, but even though for a good part of the game I thought you were town, the WIFOM at the end with how "right" you were all game really screwed with that. So, apologies and I'm dreading that avatar.
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Post Post #1364 (ISO) » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:31 am

Post by Vi »

Zorblag 1361 wrote:Vi, I know you wanted me to be a bit more proactive the start of the final day. My schedule worked against that a bit but I also feel that I work just a bit better under some pressure (as either alignment really) so I wanted to let that build some while I continued to get the lay of the land. I apologize if that made the last day more nerve wracking than it needed to be for you.
You did everything I needed you to - not draw attention to yourself for four Days and go along with my last gambit D5.

I don't think a case of mine has ever been rebutted so completely as yours D5. You're like a cult leader - if you're not speaking directly to someone, your posts are completely indecipherable; but if you ARE, it becomes apparent just how adept you are. Truthfully, in Tofu Mafia I didn't read any of your posts until D4 (the benefits of being scum against you-Town~); and it was difficult for me to get into them before I had to in this game - and not necessarily productive considering I don't think many of the Townies read your posts in this game. So when you say that you don't worry about convincing people of your reads, I can certainly believe you~
VP Baltar 1363 wrote:Reck, I don't think your lynch had anything to do with your predecessor. In fact, I would say it had absolutely nothing to do with it.
This is actually true. I was surprised at how quickly Scien was forgotten, although that's from the perspective of someone who was glaring at him through the Internet from his very first post.
VP Baltar 1363 wrote:all of the scum roles you've been getting lately
? I'm pretty sure I wasn't scum in tubby's game... :? In fact that thing H_H said a few posts ago might have all been a giant typo.
VP Baltar 1363 wrote:and I'm dreading that avatar.
I got my heart set on you, and I'm ready to wait...
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Post Post #1365 (ISO) » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:35 am

Post by SerialClergyman »

Good game kids. I think hito deserves credit for avoiding the mechanism from coming to pass. I would have lynched Vi in lylo for sure, but probably wouldn't have got Zorblag.

I got lynched, it happens. Maybe I could have done something different (time to post was a factor), but I think the flip side of having a lot of good players is that you also have a lot of stubborn, self-convinced players as well. The amount of times town convinced town to change their minds I could count on one hand I think.

I think for the most part, scum played well and deserved their victory.
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Post Post #1366 (ISO) » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:44 am

Post by VP Baltar »

Vi wrote:I'm pretty sure I wasn't scum in tubby's game... In fact that thing H_H said a few posts ago might have all been a giant typo.
You got lynched didn't you? Scum!
Vi wrote:I got my heart set on you, and I'm ready to wait...
You sure I can't negotiate a cute puppy or something?
SC wrote:I think the flip side of having a lot of good players is that you also have a lot of stubborn, self-convinced players as well. The amount of times town convinced town to change their minds I could count on one hand I think.
This is definitely true and a problem in almost any "elite" game I've played in. I personally believe that they are very difficult for the town to win. I mean, even if you look at a game like /invitational 4 where a lot of town players were on the right track for a good part of the game, it was still difficult to get a scum lynched for most of the game. Had the scum team not linked themselves so closely together to keep the lovers alive in that game, it very may of well ended up like this game. Sadly, I think the village needs a few idiots to operate smoothly. Sometimes it's just easier to get a read on someone with a lower level of playing. I have a far too suspicious mind lately and it's hard for me to write people off as town...and when I generally do, I'm horribly horribly wrong (Vi, Troll).
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Post Post #1367 (ISO) » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:45 am

Post by VP Baltar »

Oh, and Happy Scumday, SC! You're officially old now. :P
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Post Post #1368 (ISO) » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:45 am

Post by Vi »

The irony of this avatar was too much to resist.

Hey hito, when I said "So bad at Mafia", I was actually referring to the BaM group.
Both of your gambits ITT were Awesome enough that I asked SpyreX if you could be in, and he said "Hells yes". In other words, it was a compliment.

---

Things really haven't gone well for you recently, have they, SC? I started to feel kind of bad when I saw you were getting chainlynched here and in Reverberation.
Your D3 wasn't very much like your D1 play. On D1 I thought you would be one of the model Townies...
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Post Post #1369 (ISO) » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:48 am

Post by Vi »

VP Baltar 1366 wrote:Sadly, I think the village needs a few idiots to operate smoothly. Sometimes it's just easier to get a read on someone with a lower level of playing.
It is, it really is.

There's a point where you have to stop talking and just vote for someone you're most sure is scum; you really can't have ALL the facts at any given time. That's easier when you can read the people you're playing with...
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Post Post #1370 (ISO) » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:49 am

Post by Zorblag »

VP Baltar wrote:Sadly, I think the village needs a few idiots to operate smoothly. Sometimes it's just easier to get a read on someone with a lower level of playing.
Third!


As town that's absolutely my biggest trouble in with these self selected games. I need some worse play in there to have someplace to start. If everyone's more or less doing doing reasonable things (and it's got to be more than just one or two false moves, it's got to be a pattern of poor play or it's too easy to write off) I end up feeling lost. When I've got that scummy play I get to look at the motives for something which is very much important for me if I'm going to believe my own cases.

Actually, having said that, having Albert B. Rampage in the game with people who aren't used to his play does the same job for me. He's a lightning rod and he's going to draw suspicion. He just rubs people the wrong way. I don't know if I can actually read him well (I've only ever seen him as scum when I was his partner) but he gives me access to other reads just based on how people take his antics and that's a foundation to work from.

@VP Baltar, for a while in the group of people I played FtF mafia with the fun thing to do was just to vote for me right off the bat up to and including a lynch. I developed the defense of simply starting games where I was scum by saying that I was scum and naming someone as a partner (almost always falsely, but only almost.) After a few rounds of that I could drop it because they got out of the habit of that lynch if I wasn't telling them I was mafia. Don't make me need to develop an equivalent strategy here. Besides, I've never seen Vi play anything but scum so that's the way you should really be looking.

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Post Post #1371 (ISO) » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:58 am

Post by VP Baltar »

Zorblag wrote:Actually, having said that, having Albert B. Rampage in the game with people who aren't used to his play does the same job for me. He's a lightning rod and he's going to draw suspicion. He just rubs people the wrong way. I don't know if I can actually read him well (I've only ever seen him as scum when I was his partner) but he gives me access to other reads just based on how people take his antics and that's a foundation to work from.
heh, well that doesn't help when you're the scum, now does it! While that may be beneficial to you specifically, I think his play this game was massively detrimental to the town. Afterall, he spawned The Mechanism and that was just one big culdesac we really didn't need to go down at all at such a crucial point in the game. I know he's sort of got a meta prison to play to at this point, but considering the rest of the town when it comes to your own play is important in my book.

And as far as lynching you, stop bartering. :) I've made up my mind and I'm going to go Charles Bronson on you the first chance I get. I really shouldn't have given you so much good will for your blatant mason hunting in thread.
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Post Post #1372 (ISO) » Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:01 am

Post by Vi »

Zorblag 1370 wrote:Besides, I've never seen Vi play anything but scum so that's the way you should really be looking.
You and Huntress are the only two people who can say that. I think this is the first time VPB has seen me as scum?

I have to admit, ABR is the real thing - everything people say about him. While he was right more or less as often as anyone else in this game, he was someone I
did not
want to start paying attention to me.
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Post Post #1373 (ISO) » Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:08 am

Post by Zorblag »

@VP Baltar, having the mechanism spawned was almost certainly useful for the town. If it hadn't then the play it described (sans the motives) had a pretty good chance of going down. You are right though that Albert B. Rampage was less helpful to this town that he could have been. That's because the rest of you didn't know who to expect from him and how to use his energy. If more people had known that he probably would have had to have been an earlier kill.

@Vi, it's interesting that it's the unknowns that worry us even when we're the informed minority. It was pretty clear that you wanted something like Albert B. Rampage that you couldn't control and didn't know what to expect from out of the game whereas I was much more concerned about Debonair Danny DiPietro for just about the same reasons. It completely fails to surprise me that he was the one that mounted the final attack on me; he's the one that I didn't know what to do with.

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Post Post #1374 (ISO) » Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:14 am

Post by Zorblag »

@VP Baltar, oh yeah, and I would have been hunting masons regardless of my alignment this game (up to and including being a mason, though in that case it would just be for show and confusion purposes.) I'm not all that good at finding scum but masons are easier to find as masons aren't going to bus each other. If I can identify who the masons are without clearly outing them it very much narrows down the pool of people that I need to be looking at for potential scum. The more people there are in the game the more connections there are to look at, more than 5 or so and I just can't keep up with it (i.e. The rule of 5 from the Illuminatus! Trilogy.) Mason hunting would let me focus on a small enough game that I might be able to do something productive earlier than I would otherwise.

I'm a very big believer in using the setup as much as possible as town. If it's open at all that's extra information that you have that you wouldn't normally. It's pretty clearly the information which makes it easier for me to play as scum than town (and I do find it easier) so I try to go with my strengths.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh
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