Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[Vi]

/cinform

[Vi]

/confirm again

Vote: PorkchopExpress

(L-6)
I don't follow why you voted SerialClergyman.

[Vi]

IT'S CAUSE HE KNOWS THAT VI IS TOWN. And that you're scum, VP... Either way, he's your partner then so therefore

que?

Obvious joke vote, VP.

VI

(Yes the double capitalization was intentional)

Daykill: Scien

[Vi]

So... do you always put the L-# on your votes Vi? Seems to take pressure off when you are early on a wagon... like now.

Yes, I do; and no, it doesn't.
I find it dubious that you apparently consider PorkchopExpress a wagon when you put the third vote on me.

@VP Baltar: It makes sense in context, although it's a bit wordy.

[Vi]

1. What was your role in the aborted version of this game?
2. Did you know before the game started that Friends and Enemies is intended to be run with 3 mafia and 3 masons?

1. I'll come back to this later.
2. I wouldn't have noticed if you hadn't said anything. I did visit the wiki page for unrelated reasons a few days before this game started, but I was more interested in Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy (for obvious reasons).

[Vi]

@Vi, any reason for the delay on answering the first that you can share now or would that spoil the reason for delaying?

With all due respect, that seems like a question with an obvious answer. Let me go about my own business for a while.

Scien's post isn't worth responding to.

[Vi]

Scien, tell me what you think of this.

Unvote: PorkchopExpress
Vote: Scien

(L-5)

[Vi]

Scien, tell me what you think of this.

Meh, not too scary if that is the point you are trying to make.

It's not, actually. I was concerned with whether you would hold to your earlier statement that my (L-5) call is anti-Town on policy.
As we've seen, you didn't. This grounds the only halfway-meritorious part of your "case" there.
Yet your vote is still on me, indicating that you still think I'm most likely to be scum... or, given the strength of your case, that you're not interested in scumhunting.

[Vi]

You really think that I would have a secondary case on someone this early?

Yes. I do.

You are attacking me for not having a case on you... what about VPs vote, what about Ojanens? What is different about my initial vote? Why am I different than other random votes. Just the fact that I alone asked you a question after my vote? One that later was explained satisfactorily.

Your vote was

special

VP Baltar and Ojanen didn't bother to explain their votes. Your vote partially raised my "interest" because

deliberate insults tend to do that

, and partly because you then decided to push a reason onto your vote that

was

explained, albeit not satisfactorily.

A similar question could be asked of you. There are now more people voting you than there were voting me. Why is my vote worth more attention?

You really thought that vote was due to a case? Why didn't I post a case with that vote? Only after my

pressure

vote did I ask you about an element of your play. Only after you told me I was not worth replying to did I trump it up to make you reply.

And you'll notice I didn't reply to your trumped-up accusation. It was essentially the same thing you said earlier, but in a more menacing tone.

So we're on the same page, your position is:
*I'm not particularly scummy
*You don't know who else could possibly be scummy after two pages
*You think you're being "picked on" by me in particular, and three other people in general
Correct?

[Vi]

VP Baltar and Ojanen didn't bother to explain their votes. Your vote partially raised my "interest" because deliberate insults tend to do that, and partly because you then decided to push a reason onto your vote that was explained, albeit not satisfactorily.

I didn't explain my vote until post 73. I did however question a play of yours after I voted. I hadn't used it in a case at that point, and I never said my vote was due to the suspicions my question was designed to investigate.

Please show me where I said that the reason I voted you is because you place l-#s on your votes. You won't be able to. In fact, this

entire

discussion started after my vote. It didn't prompt my vote, or even relate to it until you all said that it was a case tied to my vote, which is incorrect.

My vote was no different than theirs other than it was later, and that I asked a question outside it as well.

Technicality, etc.
Your vote became different when you pressed me for scum.

A similar question could be asked of you. There are now more people voting you than there were voting me. Why is my vote worth more attention?

You are suggesting that I investigate myself since I have more people on me now? I don't need to, I know my role. However I don't know yours.

I'm pretty positive that wasn't what I was saying.
There are four people voting you. What makes my vote so different that you're pressing me exclusively?

You have cases on two people here on page 2? Holy crap you are good. You don't have to give the case if you think I am deflecting, but who is number 2?

You DO realize I was voting someone for non-random reasons before I switched to you. In addition, I'm curious as to whether SerialClergyman is playing this game, or is posting in the wrong thread.

Did I say that I thought you were 'picking on me?'

Does that even matter?

[Vi]

Your vote became different when you pressed me for scum.

Heh. I asked you a question. You said you didn't want to even respond. I pressed. You wanted me to what, just shut up?

Wrong press. I'm talking about what you said immediately after voting me, about the (L-#).

Does that even matter?

You are the one that brought it up. I was just curious about the reasons why? I didn't recall acting like your attacks were unfair, I don't know of any reasons why you would ask me if I thought so. Were you just testing if I would add something ridiculous to my current concerns?

...after looking at it again, I don't think I was correct here. Apologies, etc.

[Vi]

So... do you always put the L-# on your votes Vi? Seems to take pressure off when you are early on a wagon... like now.

So after a question that was pretty much a play style question, my vote's meaning changes? I made no accusations based off it yet. That was all part of the trump up to get you to respond to me.

It could pass as an accusation, yes... and you DID make it an accusation soon afterward. Considering you had just gotten done saying DIE V

I

-SCUM, one would expect your next post to be in that same tone.

[Vi]

@Vi: Apparently your first vote was non-random. Can we take this to mean it was serious? If so, your suspicions are based on what exactly?

Your vote was not random, but the reason behind it wasn't quite solid. Did you have another reason for voting SerialClergyman?

I'd like to hear from DDD and ABR on the Scien/Vi exchange.

There's someone else who hasn't commented on the exchange that you're missing.

[Vi]

Votecount as of this post:

Vi(2): Ojanen, Scien
SerialClergyman(2): Sando, PorkchopExpress
Albert B. Rampage(2): SerialClergyman, Zorblag
Sando(1): Debonair Danny DiPietro
Scien(4): Amished, Vi, VP Baltar, charlatan
VP Baltar(1): Albert B. Rampage

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

There's nothing for me to comment on until the two are willing to bet their life that the other is scum.

...in which case you would...?

[Vi]

Do I have to remind you all that I am Albert B. Rampage? To make me state the obvious is to waste my time.

I haven't played with Albert B. Rampage before. Please remind me, state the obvious, etc.

@Vi: How was my vote not random?

You voted for SerialClergyman for a reason (specifically, he had not confirmed twice as far as you saw). That would be not-random; you had a reason for voting for him.

[Vi]

Also, most people would take the following to mean that there's just one person you had in mind:

I'd like to hear from DDD and ABR on the Scien/Vi exchange.

There's someone else who hasn't commented on the exchange that you're missing.

Was that your intent?

I was referring to PorkchopExpress himself here. (Yes, I forgot about you. If there's anyone else left out I forgot about them too.)

The Scien/Vi argument looked boring on the surface. Felt generally a little weary of mafia.

Good choice of words. For what it's worth,

I'm not sure how anyone else expected Scien to react, but I get pretty annoyed when someone is as condescending to a post of mine to say 'your post doesn't even warrent an answer'.

Would you like for me to break down how I read Scien's post and how I came to say what I did?
(Admittedly I went overboard on the condescension, but that's a terrible habit I need to work on on my own time.)

---

Unvote: Scien
Vote: Sando

(L-5)

[Vi]

Votecount as of this post:

Vi(2): Ojanen, Scien
SerialClergyman(1): PorkchopExpress
Albert B. Rampage(1): SerialClergyman
Sando(2): Debonair Danny DiPietro, Vi
Scien(3): Amished, VP Baltar, charlatan
VP Baltar(1): Albert B. Rampage
PorkchopExpress(1): Sando
Ojanen(1): Zorblag

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

The Scien/Vi argument looked boring on the surface. Felt generally a little weary of mafia.

Good choice of words.

Why? What did you try to communicate with this comment?

Frustration, ingame and otherwise. Feel free to ignore me when I get like this.

I find it dubious that you apparently consider PorkchopExpress a wagon when you put the third vote on me.

I didn't get this line, specifically the thought connection before and after when. What did you mean?

So... do you always put the L-# on your votes Vi? Seems to take pressure off when you are early on

a wagon... like now

.

Observe Scien calling my lonely vote on PorkchopExpress a wagon. Now consider that Scien put a third vote on me for "DIE VI-SCUM".
Also, thanks for using my post reference system

---

While I suppose I deserved the condescending response from Sando, it falls in line with the previously-seen active lurking.

[Vi]

While I suppose I deserved the condescending response from Sando, it falls in line with the previously-seen active lurking.

Is that your response to my request for reasoning on your vote? Are you accusing me of active lurking and that's why you voted me?

Porkchopexpress, it worries me because I do not believe it was random. You may claim that my assumptions are incorrect, but I cannot see how the vote and the reasoning can possibly be arrived at randomly.

First paragraph: Yes.
Second paragraph: Considering that was the premise of my random vote 100 posts ago, I don't disagree... however, it looks like you're scavenging my point in an attempt to look like you have some purpose for being in this thread.

--

That's the second time you've used a tangential positive tone regards to something I did...who are you and what did you do to Vi

I don't -like- being frustrated with people, and I'm kind of worried that you consider it to be my default personality...

Hey guys, unrelated but important question: if you were a horde race in world of warcraft, which one would you be? Orc, Tauren, Troll, Undead, Goblin, Elf, Dragon, Ogre? Please answer!

I've no experience with WoW. I'll come back to this after I look some things up.

Yeah I hate making useless posts

...

[Vi]

Vi, accusing someone of active lurking on page 5 is utterly ludicrous. This seems like you've just come up with something that sounds good but requires literally no evidence (which you haven't provided), just to make yourself look town. Want to tell me where I've been lurking?

"All the way up until now" sounds good.

Isolated post #4: Useless spam.
Isolated post #5: Vaguely related comment to the Vi-Scien ordeal while pushing onto something completely unrelated (see charlatan's post) and unoriginal in an attempt to look like you're doing something.
Isolated post #6: Blustering reaction against an honest question of mine to attempt to make me look bad.
Isolated post #7: See #5.

At least ABR, SerialClergyman, etc. aren't trying to put up the pretense that they're interested in scumhunting. Your attempts to participate look entirely superficial.

[Vi]

My ass can be the center point of multi-page discussion for all I care.

And so we have our next GD topic.

(It worked for elvis_knits)

VP Baltar, what do you think of what I'm saying about Mr. Sandoman?

[Vi]

So in asking for how I'm lurking, you decide to post a rundown of my posts... That was clever of you, well done, quite useful, I'm sure.

She's saying your posts are devoid of content, which is fairly true.

This.

active

lurking

[Vi]

when I was voted for (and I quote) "active lurking" we were 5 pages in. No-ones posts has a large amount of content.

Really.

[Vi]

Why did you feel I'm not interested in scumhunting, Vi?

Everything you posted up to that point seemed like (somewhat half-serious) jokewagoning. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

[Vi]

My personal policy is that any bandwagon is a good one.

Is

every

bandwagon a good one?

[Vi]

No, I'm serious about Baltar. I like a jovial atmosphere early D1 because I find if I get bogged down in irritable or prickly discussion it only serves to amplify confirmation bias. But out of everyone, I think VP's the scummiest so far.

Could I ask why? VP Baltar seems like the only sane person here.

Tying in somewhat with Amished's strongeness, what do you think of ABR so far?

@ABR: That... sounds like basic Mafia play. I'm not against it, but randomly voting VP Baltar doesn't serve that purpose very well at all.

[Vi]

SerialClergyman, could you please elaborate on your meta on Sando?

See, it's rubbish comments like that one from VP that I don't like. He's not bitching about a lack of content, he's making a specific accusation against you. His argument said you are hypocritical for attacking someone for only having a gut reason when you yourself have used mostly gut so far to come to your reads. This is scumhunting, or what passes for it early on D1.

You also invoked lynch all liars for what barely passed for a 'lie', you were surprised Albert was touchy when being accused of scum, alluded to meta reasons for suspecting Albert but produced none when asked, Didn't join the Albert wagon until there was someone else on it.

So yep, you're the scummiest person around at the moment, just on the usual D1 straws.

Vi, expand on your VP read - what do you think of these issues I raise?

First paragraph: While I acknowledge that VP Baltar was incorrect in Sando saying

in that post

that there was no content to be seen anywhere in the thread, and the point made by Sando here is worthwhile, it was an easy mistake to make because Sando was previously complaining about

exactly that

.

Second paragraph: The first point, I agree with; tacking "LAL" onto the vote to give it legitimacy rings false. I disagree with your second point, based on what little I know of ABR's meta. I'm leaning toward agreeing on the third point, as while VP Baltar was well within his boundaries to argue that ABR is an experienced player, he completely ignored that ABR has his own brand of meta working for him (see also Ojanen 197). The fourth point is true but not much of a tell in my experience.

There are a few reasons to suspect VP Baltar, but I very much prefer my Sando hate - especially when accusations like these are on the VP Baltar wagon.

Pretty sure of yourself eh? Sure of one scum pairing on page 5... And sure that it is chainsaw defense instead of him buddying me... Dang you are good. Got information that I don't to help you be so good?

Are you trying to do the tried and true 'everyone loves to try and lynch me in day 1' shtick?

----

I do play a reactive game and I tailor my style to the players I'm playing with. If I'm ICing a newbie game then I'm going to push the pace and be aggresive because most newbies don't know they need to contribute. But playing in a game with VPB, Vi, and SC (amongst others) I know I don't need to be the one to push the pace because they're very comfortable taking that role. We've had what, four days for this game?

I'm just waiting to see something I view as scummy to start running with.

In that case, I'll hang on to every word you say~

[Vi]

Re: DDD - I've heard "most helpful lurker" before... from DDD-scum in Appenine Mafia. Fool me once, etc.
Also, I didn't say "hang you on every word you say"

Vi - Just out of curiosity, why are you asking for SCs meta on me? I don't mean what you expect to get out of it, I understand that, but what has prompted you to ask, what posts etc?

SerialClergyman's meta on you is becoming a big deal - and what's interesting is that it's not SC bringing it up.
I would like to hear the orange dino's take on your play and other people bringing up your interaction with him.

[Vi]

I find VPB unhelpful and more of a eyesore than anything else, so I won't be missing him once he's gone. Scien hasn't done anything to bother me.

That's strange. The first post where you said anything about VP Baltar being

scummy

(225) came after this one.

When did VP Baltar stop becoming a lynch of convenience and start becoming the scumlynch that you're pushing now?

(I'm sure the English there is poor but etc.)

[Vi]

What was weird to me about the exchange with VP was that, at least form my perspective, he made a bad point on Sando, I pointed it out and he went straight to 'you're full butt hurt for your friend'. No looking at other games I've played with sando where were town-town fought and scum accused, no acknowledgement that in the game he's drawing his conclusions off I was right and the wagon I was pushing instead was scum that was never lynched. And I barely said anything in sando's favour, my main point was that VP was deflecting with a shallow attack.

It doesn't feel right from him.

He didn't accuse you first thing. He only made things personal when you defended a point that he saw as blatantly wrong.
For what it's worth, I can gather from the linked game that you playing Sando's oracle can get frustrating quickly. Furthermore, it's not exactly VP Baltar's civic duty to research the history of your relationship with Sando if he hasn't played in those games.

--

@charlatan - Why aren't you voting VP Baltar?

[Vi]

Regarding charlatan vs. VP Baltar+ABR: I understood your answer to my question, so don't worry about that.
In a similar vein, I particularly want to ask about what you're doing with your vote, but I think it would be better to wait and see what you do.

Could you summarize briefly your position on VP Baltar + ABR?

---

@Ojanen: As evidenced by your lurkervote, are you convinced that the "present" players are more likely Town?

---

@ABR - what is your read on Scien? (Of course there's a reason I'm asking.)

---

PorkchopExpress 296 seems intuitively scummy. I thought you were catching up, not egging on.

Unvote: Sando
Vote: PorkchopExpress

(L-4)

[Vi]

@charlatan: Is ABR #1 on your scumlist, #2, or something else?

Troll, are you going to make up your mind on ABR in the next three hundred posts?

---

While I don't mind the charlatan wagon, I think I'm going to follow Amished down a different promising lane.

Unvote: PorkchopExpress
Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

(L-5)

[Vi]

@Vi, are you unclear about my opinion on Albert B. Rampage now? He's doing nothing that I wouldn't expect him to as town, he is impacting the game in a way that I feel is helping us get reads on players and he's pushing at me in a way that he hasn't before. I think he's more likely town than scum at this point. The game is still young but I don't see the patterns that I expect him to follow if he's scum. I also don't think that any of that should be particularly surprising based on what I've been saying up till now.

Unless I've been misreading, you've been calling "undecided" at every opportunity.

I do wonder a bit about your most recent vote change though. It doesn't seem as though either Debonair Danny DiPietro or PorkchopExpress have posted since your previous vote. Was Amished's defense of his vote really enough to convince you that it was worth moving from one lurker vote to another or did you see something that you've failed to mention?

After falling hopelessly behind in Appenine Mafia, DDD-scum adopted a strategy of "most helpful lurker" - resulting in him getting lynched in spite of basically every Townie wondering why on earth he was still alive at the beginning of each Day. After getting rightfully burned in that game, I'm not interested in letting DDD lurk another game away again, and I've been interested in what he would post ITT considering his promise to find something enlightening to base his vote on whenever that enlightening thing happens.

Now consider that apparently the most (if only) enlightening thing to occur thus far has been Amished voting for him. Excuse me if I have a hard time believing it.

[Vi]

If his lack of participation was a concern for you why start with PorkchopExpress rather than going right to Debonair Danny DiPietro who you had reason to be concerned about on the lurking front?

I recall saying quite a bit about DDD burning me once about being lurkerscum, and how the impetus for my DDD vote was his reactive response to Amished.

Lurking

in and of itself wasn't my primary interest - especially since when people give RL reasons for being out of the game like PorkchopExpress did, they usually aren't lying.

Nonetheless, my QuickHam vote had a couple of elements to it.

*Virtually everything PExpress had said up until then was on defense - no leaving the random vote argument. Even during the post where he said "sorry I was out", all but one of his comments were on defense.
*In the post I voted him for, it seemed like he was trying to latch on to a popular argument in order to be counted without saying much of anything.
*I wanted to see how he - and others - would react to it. I didn't give the first reason when I voted, and I expected someone to see my jump as scummy. Like most of my plans, it only barely worked - it's only now happening with Troll.

I still don't have warm fuzzies about PorkE - partly because his vote is still on SerialClergyman - but I prefer my DDD angst more because there's less room for error.

---

I on the other hand have a hard time believing that my vote on Amished is the most interesting or scummiest thing so far in this game. And bear in mind, that it was you people who decided that when I finally said something it would be some super terrific point; I never claimed to have any phenomenal insight only that when something did interest me I would pursue it. And you're one of the two people who should know best that after the apparently defining game that was Appenine Mafia I changed my playstyle to account for that, three words - Mafia of Order.

You also said in Appenine Mafia that you change your playstyle in each game to avoid this kind of meta.

As far as "something spectacular" goes...

I'm just waiting to see something I view as scummy to start running with.

This wasn't you speaking?

1) I've lost too many games because of lurkers (either lynching them if they're pro-town or not if they're scum)

So you've lost too many games by lynching pro-town lurkers, so you begin to pressure and vote a pro-town lurker, okay that argument doesn't make any sense.

...words fail me. I love my vote right now. *hugs vote*

I'm interested in what kind of case you have on Amished pre-DDDvote, because like SerialClergyman I think Amished is more likely Town.

[Vi]

I still don't have warm fuzzies about PorkE - partly because his vote is still on SerialClergyman - but I prefer my DDD angst more because there's less room for error.

Can you rephrase what the "there's less room for error" actually means for me please?

Soitenly.
I am more able to see PorkchopExpress's posts as being typed from a Townie perspective than DDD's. To that end, I'm all kinds of interested in seeing DDD post again, even if I have to wait.

Sando's two recent posts are self-evidently horrible.

Troll's post on ABR's M.O. resonates well with me, especially after ABR 331.

[Vi]

@ all: Where are the votes?

On DDD.
You are correct that I severely DON'T disagree with the charlatan hate, but I want to focus on DDD right now.

[Vi]

Zzz

Go ahead and say it.

[Vi]

Here is the link to the DDD game i referred to.

If you promise not to look at my reads, this is what's making me very hesitant about the DDD wagon. I made almost identical points to you, I think.

1. Lack of scumhunting.
2. Playing outside of town meta (in my reads I find him to be more active and more firm when town. Here he still hasn't placed a non-random vote until after Monkey claimed, without doing more than vague reads previous to that. His activity was also decidedly low until I specifically attacked him.)
3. A few AtE-style posts, like telling me his opinion of my ability was slipping or calling monkey 'clownshoes'.

From what I can tell in multi-isolation, 1 doesn't relate. In that game, DDD bothered to participate at all. Here he only posted when his name was called to OMGUS and produce some charlatan-level reasoning (see below).
2 is not entirely similar either. I have

scum

meta on DDD... and I also have Town meta on a helpful and fairly awesome DDD in Zachtown, although that was after he replaced in D3. While I may be willing to buy that DDD plays a reactive game D1 - which goes against what he told me elsewhere, but whatever - I'm not entirely naive enough to be burned by the same tactic twice.
3 is not really applicable in this game as far as I've noticed, and isn't really that good an accusation in the first place~

I will grant that his response to the quoted post (in that game) makes me wonder about my previously positive image of DDD-Town. I'm curious as to what DDD thinks of his own play in the game you linked.

---

No, lurkers you can't get a read on hurt games. If you can get a good read on a lurker then there is no need to care about their activity status.

You couldn't get a read on me; sounds like the problem is on your end, not mine.

No, seriously, am I the only person who wants to scream right here?

The case against Amished is trumped-up beyond what it's worth. If you're going to be suspicious of someone over calling the team, try Sando, who tried to sway ABR into "calling the team" by asking if char/DDD/Amished were group scum.

---

I'll read charlatan's post when I'm not on a time budget and I'm not getting whitescreened left and right.
Also, see V/LA in sig.

[Vi]

@DDD:

Re: meta - Meta, Town or otherwise, is not a direct reason for my vote on you; and I'm fairly positive I made that clear in my previous post. I know you are capable of lurking through a game and getting away with it. Needlessly to say, I'm not interested in allowing that - regardless of whether that's your habit.

The level of scumhunting between now and when SC accused you in that other game is different. Your first (and basically only) public point after being told to produce content was to attack your attacker. Surely that's not the only noteworthy, voteworthy thing that has gone on up to this point?

While it's true that Amished didn't give you a direction in what to comment on when he voted you, I don't think that's particularly scummy considering he wanted to see

anything

from you. As it turns out, the point is moot now, as what you posted certainly allowed us to get a read on you.

The two quotes I posted are both false. Your alignment is

my

our business; if you're not going to open yourself up to allow a read, the problem is most certainly on your end. Further, I would rather have someone who contributes versus a lurking Townie; anyone who has been in a game where someone gets Cop-investigated and then drops off the page entirely can relate.

Re: Zachtown - I think my perspective is colored by me being scum and you not being gullible.

Re: Replying to things - You were well within your ability to reply to Sando's post, but you claim it wasn't your responsibility until 1) I mentioned it 2) while posting toward you. Penn and Teller disapprove.

[Vi]

Amished, what do you think of charlatan's case on SerialClergyman?

[Vi]

I'm back, but tired. I'll catch up and respond as soon as I can.

[Vi]

[about Sando and PE's random vote]

Make it relevant or move onto something with more punch to it. Allow me to get you started: The only way this could be a scummy move is if it was distancing from SC, or Vi I guess. So, which one is likely scum in your eyes?

Now what was the purpose behind this?

---

@DDD 382, and later charlatan 389: I'm fairly positive I've mentioned this before, but lurking is -not- the core of my case against DDD; the case on Amished and subsequent badposting (brought out by playing activity police, yes) is.

---

@xRx: Can you specify anyhow (by an example, or anyhow so that I could get anything more tangible out of it) how Vi feels so pro-town? Would be interesting because (s)he's been a completely impenetrable read for me so far.

Likewise.
Why should I believe you're Town, Ojanen?

---

Regarding my predecessor,

all I could think during my re-read

was... holy shit, Scien is pressuring Vi on quite possibly the dumbest thing ever.

[etc.]

What about the rest of Scien's play?

charlatan is my strongest town read.

SC is one of my only scum reads. Vote: SC

SCUMMEH:
charlatan

TOWNEE:
SC

Really? Wow.

---

@Vi: I'm at L-2 at the moment, and before that goes further or doesn't I think it would be worthwhile to hear your opinions on me in any sort of explicit manner. So far you've said you "severely DON'T disagree" with the wagon and offered an insult in a roundabout way in 363, but you haven't been specific at any point that I can recall.

Just "worthwhile"?
There are two major reasons I have not laid a case out against you. One, I wanted to stall joining your wagon (and possibly the Day itself) in hopes of getting a read on DDD. It feels terrible to land in D2 and have

no

read on someone. Two, I simply didn't have time or energy to read through all of the walls. I still barely don't.

In brief, these are the things standing out. If you want more detail, I can provide; but considering my new schedule I don't particularly want to.
*You've used tricky semantic arguments to try to argue something opposite what everyone else has been reading.
*Your relationship with ABR seems like a giant catfight - awkwardly provoked by you, awkwardly dropped by you, continued by ABR after your awful SerialClergyman case, dropped by ABR somewhat suddenly recently.
*Your caricature of the wagon as "based on a quote from Page 5" is wishful thinking from a perspective of wishful thinking. A formal case is not necessary behind each vote, and a defense does not make the problem go away. Or more succinctly: Mafia is not a game of logic.
*Your time-sensitive argument in 481 (oh you didn't ask me about this a while ago, so this must be scraping for reasons to find me scummy) do NOT resonate with me in particular, considering I'm rapidly finding out how little Mafia time is in my near future, plus I deliberately kept mum in hopes of pressuring DDD.

Vi - we have to lynch someone. Do you prefer charlatan, DDD, or neither as of yet?

I would lynch charlatan over DDD... in a few posts.

@Everyone *not* voting Char: What is your main reason for voting for somebody else? (directed at
12. Vi (on DDD))

Scummy posting coupled with misrepresentation of case, frustrated by a claim that "he gets better after D1".

In a larger picture, I wanted to draw the Day out before jumping onto the charlatan wagon.

---

I would go so far as to say that porkchop is a better lynch than charlatan because at least with the latter we will have a lot to play with in later days.

"Information" is always vacuously explained to me as a reason to do anything, so--
Please explain what you're talking about here.

[Vi]

@xRx: Aside from the speed of his posts, did you find charlatan's early posts'

content

(through Page 8 or whenever) to be pro-Town? How or how not?

I like Amished's lynch list, although I would like for him to answer xRx's questions toward him.

charlatan(4):

[lots of Town reads]

PorkchopExpress(4):

[lots of neutral/scummy reads]

Well that makes my decision even easier.

Unvote: Debonair Danny DiPietro
Vote: charlatan

(L-2)

[Vi]

Let me surmise the case on charlatan: he makes bad arguments. He doesn't read the game like everyone else.

He changes his mind often.

He awkwardly distances from ABR in transparent attempts to cause drama (see isolated post #9). His bad arguments are aiming at my better Town reads. His bad arguments seem to rely on loopholes in his own words. His top defender throws down the word

proof

in attempting to refute the case, which by itself shows that he's reaching.

And I know charlatan, if and whether he is scum with PCE or not, he's going to make a lot more mistakes.

...so which mistakes has he made up until now, and why are they not enough to indict him?

DDD, he was voting for you a minute ago, don't tell me you're against lynching pce now.

I think I understand where ABR 520 is coming from, but that doesn't change
*that ABR is the one saying it, and I believe ABR has a vested interest in getting the wagon off charlatan
*that the PorkchopExpress wagon is flooded with scummy people and I don't want to join them

[Vi]

@Whoever asked me: content-wise, there's not a whole lot there in charlatan's early posts. It's just the way that he presented himself gave me a gut town read, I guess. Given the developments later in the game, though, it obviously made him a strong scum read.

This IS a butchery of the English language. Please try again.

On PCE vs char:

I feel like either one or the other is scum. I see no connections between the two to link one to the other, so I don't think they're going to be on the same scumteam. PCE has been coasting so far this game to the point where when I got done doing my scumlist I was like 'Who am I missing? Oh, PCE and Ojanen." Only difference is, when Ojanen does post, it's at least neutral, whereas PCE gets by without doing much of anything aka scummy.

There's something missing here... It's why you're not voting charlatan.
Further, there's a difference between "one or the other is scum" and "they're not scum together".

To be completely honest, at the risk of sounding like charlatan's fence-sitting, I only prefer a PCE-lynch like 50%, a charlatan lynch 35%, and a DDD lynch 15%.

...charlatan's fence-sitting?

---

I don't really understand how this PorkchopExpress wagon got going. Albert B. Rampage pushing for something is probably a good sign if anything; he's managed to create a second wagon out of very little and he's forcing people to take sides in a way that they weren't really forced to with the charlatan vs. Debonair Danny DiPietro or whatever else might have been competing wagons previously.

Saying that he was trying to derail the charlatan wagon doesn't take into account how long that wagon was there as a serious contender.

I also don't have any reason to like what PorkchopExpress is doing so I'm not going to argue against people joining his wagon even though it's not my plan to do so myself.

Wait, I thought you said you didn't really understand how the Porkchop wagon started
You don't think the PorkchopExpress wagon is scum-driven?
Could you explain the bolded?

----

U. Vote Count

:arrow: charlatan (L-2) ~ SerialClergyman, Trollblag, VP Baltar, Amished, Vi
PorkchopExpress (L-3) ~ ABR, xRx, Sando, Ojanen
VP Baltar (L-6) ~ charlatan
xRx (L-6) ~ DDD
Sando (L-6) ~ PorkchopExpress

[Vi]

In fact, the case on charlatan is the type of case I would use as scum. It's an easy answer the town is looking for and delighted by. The hard reality is that there are no easy answers in this game.

The charlie case is a myth. And I, am a legend.

contradictory rhetoric

[Vi]

Vote: Sando

(L-5)

Most sketchy stance about the charlatan wagon, especially considering the third quote below.

In general I think he's being defensive while throwing in token scumhunting that strikes me as poorly thought at and reasoned. Charlatan is obviously intelligent and well reasoned, his cases/attacks don't strike me as intelligent and well reasoned, only his defences.

Unvote, Vote: Charlatan

(L-2)

More than happy to swap onto PCE.

Unvote, Vote: PCE

(L-4)

Charlatan: I'm not sure what you mean by that's more likely for another person? My problem with you is that parts of your posts are intelligent, well articulated and clearly well thought out, other parts aren't in my opinion. I think the fact that the difference falls along fairly clearly defined lines makes me extremely suspicious of your motives.

I agree with you that he made bad arguments. If you ask me, this is more a question of skill than alignment however.

This is rubbish.

No it's not.

VPB, why does me voting PCE mean I have to think Char is town?

Plus I still don't like his reasoning for joining the PCE wagon. ("random vote" blather plus the below)

@SC: It's been made clear that you haven't stated that Sando is town this game, but what is your read on him?

This is pretty funny, people like VPB are getting upset at Serial for saying I was town (which he didn't) and now you want to force him to say it.

[Vi]

Vi, you implied earlier you thought the PCE wagon was scumdriven. Do you retain this belief, why/why not?

In the sense that more people I'm leaning scum on were on that wagon versus the charlatan wagon in spite of the charlatan wagon being almost twice its size, yes.

Not sure I like three votes being played coming right out of the gate on D2, so I'm gonna hold off on voting quite yet until I have more time to feel out each player.

Your caution is unwarranted. Vote.

@ABR: So what now?

[Vi]

Also

@mod: Update the thread title plz

[Vi]

So now you give me credit, boss.

You called charlatan correctly. I'm not particularly upset over how you shifted the focus back to charlatan, either.

My questions are - When did charlatan become a Town read to you?
Is the Express of Chopped Pork still a scumread?

[Vi]

Here's what confuses me about your play: you don't like tunnelling on D1. You claimed to want to avoid confirmation bias at all costs. You switched off of VP because you don't want to have confirmation bias and got an impression you might be wrong.
You proceed to tunnel the shit out of charlatan,

while the town collectively amplifies that tunneling.

To echo SerialClergyman, this is rubbish.

In particular, the bolded seems to suggest that the Town (read: the others on the charlatan wagon) is at fault for SC's actions.

Question. How "legitimate" was the charlatan wagon?

[Vi]

I was referring to the fact that Serial initiated/pushed hard on the case while being concentrated very much on it, and the suspicion for charlatan had caught on widely at the same time, resulting in the thread being very concentrated overall on charlatan. Both of which are self-evident facts.

I'm looking for how or why this is a scummy thing, considering everyone except maybe ABR agrees that there was a substantive case on charlatan.

What put PorkchopExpress over charlatan, if you agreed with both cases?

[Vi]

Vi, same question at you, just flip it:

What made you put charlatan over PCE? Did you find PCE scummy at all D1? Do you find him scummy in light of charlatan's flip?

My reasoning is (appropriately) the flipped version of what ABR or whoever was saying. charlatan was doing lots of scummy things, as briefly outlined previously. I don't/didn't particularly like what PorkchopExpress was doing, but I believe that the case against him was being exaggerated. I'm not sure how I would find PorkchopExpress scummy as a result of charlatan's flip.

Plus as of right now I'm more interested in finding the scum who were actually voting on the major wagons at the end of D1.

[Vi]

Earlier during the day I thought there was quite enough pressure for my liking on charlatan without me voting him although I was asking questions and thus pushing the case somewhat too. You find that scummy about me like the others do?

Not particularly until here--

Wow that is a real "I am holier" post.

I saw nothing of the sort in charlatan's post.

Your next post feels like a waffle--

charlatan, you're a good player. Won the game to your team last time etc.
Well I was just thinking after the fake feeling holy post and the diametrically opposite hard-to-understand reads to mine that charlatan keeps generating again that I'm enthusiastic enough about seeing him lynched.
I'd still like a claim though.

It seems like you were interested in finding reasons to gravitate toward the charlatan hammer.

---

He was doing things that were easy to paint as scummy, but anyone with an ounce of good reason could see that any player could make bad arguments, try to defend his previous actions, not admit he's wrong, not scumhunt with a head on his shoulders, appear odd to the others, etc.

I voted him out because I wouldn't want to be left in a situation with him with me and the scum in LYLO, his opinions were largely bull-headed and his reasoning was extremely clouded. If it could be any other way, say 1 of the 5 first players on his wagon joined a PCE push, I would have kept him because he provided a good amount of content. I feel as though I am a better player than him and if he were scum I could outplay him in subsequent days and find his partners while I'm at it.

I think I understand.

There's a factor missing, but I think that will be answered today.

[Vi]

@"holier": I'm not sure I follow, but there's no sense in arguing it out.

Re: waffle - Perhaps "waffle" was not the best of terms to use. It seemed like you were generating rationalizations for jumping over.
I'll grant that once ABR jumped over there was no chance of a noncharlatan lynch though.

There were 3 points relating to charlatan using a bad argument in his defence and one point which I think means you thought charlatan was scum with ABR (referring to a catfight between them).

You are thinking correctly in that last part. (Obviously, it's not true in hindsight.)
Why are these bad/unsatisfactory?

This one was especially hard to decipher for me; why did this wishful thinking make charlatan scummy?

my page 5 comment was a relatively unimportant one that I didn't even think much of and it is arguably the biggest sticking point of the day

...which was patently untrue, and an attempt to whitewash the other concerns (i.e. pushing ABR to pointlessly and transparently stir up drama, awful SerialClergyman vote, etc.).

[Vi]

Vi, your case on me is pretty stupid. The quote you want special mention made of is me fairly tongue in cheek having a go at Serial for lack of support of his statement. And just so you know, when I say 'this is pretty funny', I actually mean funny, not scummy. I know they rhyme and all, but most people can work it out, it wasn't part of why I was voting PCE.

I don't do sarcasm. But I can buy the part about charlatan at least.

The second question will be better answered when you explain more to me about why you're voting Porky beyond

Reasons haven't changed.

[Vi]

Why did you find charlatan scummy for the "fencesitting on VP/ABR" line of questioning when the same exchange felt originally like bussing to you and you seem to regularly think two arguing parties could be bussing? Like your top suspects PCE/Sando here now again?

This.

Just start from the moment you replaced in, what was going through your head

Very much this.

xRx: If you've dropped your suspicion of hitoExpress when PCE replaced out, why is your vote still on him?

---

I still find his response to

that

scummy, I think he was active-lurking for much of D1, and I think he went out of his way to avoid the Charlatan issue.

Um... PCE didn't respond to "that", except to say that he was drunk. Unless I'm misreading again.

A-lurking, well, etc. I didn't get the sense that it was particularly malicious though.

I take that to mean you find this scummy?

It didn’t seem prudent to bring Charlatan to the brink of lynching when a new player was replacing in.

---

Ojanen. Has your opinion changed on SerialClergyman yet?

[Vi]

@Vi: didn't realize it was.

Unvote

.

The point: You just missed it.

Then in an attempt to understand whatever Reckoner's reasoning for staying on the PCE wagon even though he finds charlatan scummy,

I ask him who he thinks could be the scum

pushing the charlatan wagon. He says I am, but

won't comment on anyone else

and says that they are likely both scum being run up....which is about as ridiculous as one can get.

The point: We just found it.

(Less cryptic version: I don't buy that you're interested in finding scum)

[Vi]

Defending self... check
Hunting scum... no check
Voting (alleged) top suspect... still no check

Nice priorities.

Unvote: Sando
Vote: xRECKONERx

(L-1)

[Vi]

Vi, what about me moving off Charlatan do you find scummy?

The second question will be better answered when you explain more to me about why you're voting Porky beyond

Yeah you're just avoiding the question now, I gave my reasons, you refused to answer what about me moving off Charlatan you found scummy?

Actually, I wanted to make sure I had everything right before I said what was on my mind.

Your reasons for voting PCE are more or less useless.
*While PCE's vote wasn't technically random - victory for semantics - seeing as it's not Page 5 anymore I don't see how it's scummy so much as "lol u did something wrong".
*Active lurking is fair as mentioned before, but it makes for good scapegoating - especially since you aren't applying your a-lurker search elsewhere, like DDD.
*Saying that PCE "avoided" the charlatan wagon is not altogether different from saying you're "avoiding" the xRx wagon, considering you're both giving the same reason.

Plus you had no discernible reason for jumping off charlatan after your late vote (to make a late vote on PCE, of course). So to answer your question,

almost everything

.

---

Vi jumps on with 'well he's defending himself against this exhaustive case!'

The point: You also missed it.

About half of the xRx case is "you can't really be this wrong with a straight face" (i.e. pushing both PCE and charlatan as equally scum, except with %s attached) where defense isn't that important. The other half is how he's doing it again today. It's also worth noting (this being

the point

) that while xRx is trying to defend himself, he's not trying to scumhunt.

You're apparently his top suspect, and while I like that there's no actual reasoning or even a vote behind that sentiment. Since PCE replaced out, he's got... nada. And he's not trying. I would expect a Townie on the verge of being lynched to at least try to point us in the right direction.

Cut by xRx. I'm not totally impressed.

To address the elephant in the room, yes, my vote put him at L-1. Do you (or anyone for that matter) expect xRx to be hammered prematurely?

---

No. He hasn't done squat today. Why are you asking?

Technically he

has

done squat. What do you think of his push on xRx?
I asked because I expected you to have something to say about him if he was near the top of your suspect list (plus at the end of D1 I had a Town read on him, and am curious about dissenting opinions).

Now that I've said that, I have a question for SerialClergyman.

As for lynch suspects, I think Ojanen, Reck or Porkchop are all there for me.

This was your first post of D2. I can see a line about Ojanen before, but when did xRx or PCE come onto your suspect list?

Ojanen: Do you still find hitochop to be scum? What is your opinion on Sando?

---

@mod: Please prod DDD and Trollblag

---

Cut by xRx:

Scum-Sando would've just let me get lynched.

How do you know?

For people to say I have no interest in doing any scumhunting is pretty hypocritical when DDD doesn't either

But this isn't about DDD. This is about you.

[Vi]

Simulposted(ish) by VP Baltar.

Answer implied in 680.

[Vi]

Vi, think about it: Sando hammers me, he's already getting a ton of suspicion anyway, he's just basically a fall guy for the scum. I don't know why he'd try to start a complete counter-wagon (unless he's my scumbuddy) as scum. It's a far too laborious tactic to try and clear himself if he's scum. Plus, he pointed out DDD's weaksauce reasoning, which is a very nice catch.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to be the only person calling Sando scummy.

Saying that Sando pointed out DDD's weaksauce reasoning is more than a bit of a stretch.

Not liking the way this lynch is happening on Reck;
DDD starts with 'well Reck was a good lynch yesterday'
Zorblag jumps on with 'pretty sure Reck is scum'
SC joins with 'hey let's lynch Reck and not post reasoning'
Albert jumps on with... nothing
Vi jumps on with 'well he's defending himself against this exhaustive case!'

The last 3

are the ones that really worry me.

This is the first time Sando has seriously mentioned DDD throughout the game... and to frame this as an accusation is laughable.

As for starting a complete counterwagon, speaking frankly it was either that or join your wagon. (Or keep his cheesy PCE vote)

[Vi]

I mean I could've made loud noises and repeated things from yesterday and called it a case,

...and instead you made soft noises and referenced things from yesterday and called it an argument.

You mentioned Sando earlier. Do you still feel the same way about him? Do you feel any need at all to do/ask anything at this time?

[Vi]

Vi's vote on Reck is just horrible, it's an opportunistic vote onto a wagon with little to no reasoning.

(...)

Also, it's not just the fact that PCE 'random' voted non-randomly, it's more that he (...) reacted with an overly aggressive and very poorly reasoned defence of his random vote. A simple 'yeah that random vote technically wasn't random, was just for a silly/meaningless reason in RVS' would have sufficed. Instead he decides that I'm pushing something that is old-news, despite not answering a simple question for the whole time, and vigorously defends the idea that his vote was random, which is in no way was. His response was way out of line with how I would have expected a townie to react.

So are you illiterate, or do you just not read my posts?

SerialClergyman. You suggested this wagon on xRx in the first place. Now that things have happened because of your suggestion, I think now would be an appropriate time to ask why and whether you got what you wanted.

VP Baltar, is there nothing to respond to?

[Vi]

@SerialClergyman: Are you going to respond to Sando?

[Vi]

ABR: Is SerialClergyman Mafia? (with xRx/VP Baltar?)
Is VP Baltar going to end up like another charlatan?

I do agree that Troll and DDD need to start talking of their own volition - particularly Troll (last post, summary: "I had reasons forthcoming but VP Baltar said them all; carry on").

---

@Ojanen: What do you think of xRx "Sando is defTown"? (684)
I'm a little ish about how you're calling him a "juicy easy target if Town" after IIRC starting the PRETTEH SCUMMEH discussion about his targeting tendencies. How confident are you that xRx is Town?

Do you have any non-VP Baltar suspects in mind?

---

I'm skeptical of the VP Baltar case because I can identify with his thought processes, speaking as someone who had issues with charlatan's charlatanry yesterday, still dislike xRx now, and am presently sorting through issues with ABR. While prior to this post I had a Town read on ABR and I have no problem with how the end of D1 went, his actions following SerialClergyman calling him out seem inconsistent. Pushing on it isn't a waste of time, regardless of what The Man himself might say. (That and I'm tempted to vote him just out of spite.)

VP Baltar: How much experience do you have with ABR?

I'm curious as to what Sando thinks of the VP Baltar/ABR circus.

---

I would like to hear from both Vi and Troll please. Vi on developments and Troll on VP.

Why are you asking for different things from different

species

people?

The case on VP is not bad

Why not?

Do you think xRx was in danger of being lynched? based on your wagon call? Do you disagree with the votes on the wagon?

What are your current thoughts on ABR?

---

Still waiting on xRx to catch up.
Incidentally, how much do you know about ABR, xRx? Based on

His blatant vote-hopping seems too scummy to be scum. I know that's a logical fallacy, but it is my belief that a player as experienced as ABR wouldn't be flopping around like so.

...I'm going to guess "little".

Do you find someone other than DDD scummy? Is DDD still the best place for your vote?

[Vi]

I'm swamped with RL stuff right now (most of which is past due ;>.> ). I'll try to catch up one way or another, but it won't be tonight. If you have any questions specifically for me, ask; if you have any questions you've already asked that you especially want answered, ask again.

I will respond to SerialClergyman while I'm here though. I don't like the stuff going on right now. This VP Baltar wagon is less than less than unconvincing. On the other side of the fence, calling the hammer/jump from PCE to charlatan D1 scum-motivated makes no sense (and this is why I'm bewildered about what to do with ABR given D2 play). And I always feel like if I'm not actively ruining peoples' lives, the game is right where the scum want it. So if I don't like what's being done, I'm going to attempt to move the game in a different direction; and if I notice something that I believe should be pursued, of course I'll go for it.

[Vi]

I should finally have everything taken care of tomorrow night.

@Sando: What part of "I'm busy and don't have time to catch up" was not in modern English?
As for the questions I'm allegedly evading, I don't see any questions from you to me in the last eight pages; the last one was answered in 680.
Troll's reminder about the previous game is bizarre on a number of levels, but why not.

I was one of the Masons in the previous game (what with the scum claiming a few posts later, this should have been an easy guess). The reason I held back about it is because me and my Mason partner - who can claim when he likes - discussed plans for how to approach the game. I expected my former Mason partner (if Town) to act in the same way in the rebooted game as he told me he would in the QuickTopic. (I actually like how this arrangement turned out tbh.) My plan was to ascertain ABR's alignment as soon as I could, and shamelessly puppy him or voluntarily become flamebait to lynch him accordingly. Unfortunately, this plan failed to take into account that I've never played with anyone like ABR before and I couldn't read him. Right now I'm thinking le Town, but as previously mentioned I hate this VP Baltar wagon, so.

Setting that answer aside:
Troll, why did you see that as relevant enough to bring back up again?
Sando, why was that relevant enough to contort it into an attack?

---

Since I may as well address the elephant in the room, I'll come back to my L-1 vote on xRx.
*Does anyone deny that xRx was, in fact, not acting like a Townie at the time of my vote (i.e. at least

trying

to point Town in the right direction)
*Does anyone deny that there was no way in perdition that anyone was going to hammer xRx? This is an invitational game; there are no flaming idiots who will hammer for the sake of hammering (and the not-necessarily-flaming-or-idiotic people who may have done so were already on the wagon anyway). Even if someone wanted to hammer xRx, they would have waited for hitochop to catch up on his reads.
*Therefore, can it be acknowledged that my L-1 vote was both warranted and perfectly safe? (Notice I haven't unvoted xRx until this point)

Fake edit: Ohhhh haaaay. I totally asked Sando about this

very same thing

in 680! I thought I used "elephant in the room" already ITT.

Sando calling himself an

easy target

(and attacking me for it) is lol.
It's just as funny as pointing out that lol, he

still

hasn't answered MY question (about commenting on the VP/ABR circus). I mean

really

.
Fake edit: See other Fake edit.

My next post will hopefully get to everyone else. Until then,

Unvote: xRECKONERx
Vote: Sando

(L-5)

[Vi]

I can go for a SerialClergyman wagon, but the motive behind ABR's moves D1 looks too Town to fake.

[Vi]

Vi: I'm confused, how does not claiming prev-mason help you do that? I can understand if you're looking for a read on your previous partner

Ah good, you understand then.

But even otherwise, there's no scum motivation for not answering that question. There's no reason to twist it into a scumtell.

I totally asked Sando about this very same thing in 680! I thought I used "elephant in the room" already ITT.

Considering it wasn't what I was accusing you of, I thought it was a pretty stupid question.

===NEWS FLASH===
*I don't only ask questions in self-defense
*I don't expect people to only ANSWER questions in self-defense

You then decided that my suspicion of you, and DDD (not one of the 3 mentioned), were particularly bad from me.

Read context, then try again

I never said that you were trying to get a quick-lynch on Reck, I said that you were opportunistically jumping on a wagon with little to no reasoning.

And you are essentially correct. But you just said that I wasn't trying to quicklynch xRx... so where's the problem?

The hot topic today is xRx. Weigh in plz.

---

As promised before, my thoughts in general.

Trollblag is virtually invisible. I know he's V/LA across the site, but he's only made three posts today and two of them were "lol lynch reck". And after 800+ posts... that's really all I remember about him.

Mod: Prod Zorblag

ABR is etc.

I didn't have a problem with SerialClergyman D1, but I don't like his

raw sexual magnetism

D2 play. In particular, 788 waffles with a lot of people, and it just seems like he's not there at interesting times (i.e. while xRx was hanging at L-1 for a while). His Sando-Town read seems to be based on the assumption that xRx is scum and Sando wasn't pulling an "epic derail", yet he now doesn't like the xRx wagon, so... something's inconsistent.
I would like to hear more about this relationship with Troll and the "code". I would also like to hear about what VP Baltar has done to warrant a vote.

Over the course of the game Ojanen has gone from neutral to very neutral to mildly scummy to rather scummy to I don't have any idea, which is where I'm at now.
@Ojanen: Your thoughts on the xRx lynch going on nao?

Sando is etc.

VP Baltar is etc.
I would like to hear about my former Mason partner's goal for the game, since I talked about mine.

The reason I kept my vote on xRx was because I didn't see much of a reason to remove it without someone else becoming scummier. Pretty much everything he's said since he was at L-1 has been unlikely at best. (well okay, not the V/LA notices, but etc.) I'd like to wait a little longer for responses before joining the wagon, but I'm in favor of it.

My reflexive response to PCE was that he was Town who was being misunderstood/scapegoated. Since then, hito has been kind of

eh

for me. I didn't mind the ABR vote at first, but I think it's worn itself out.

I don't know what you saw in his D1 play that's 'too town to fake', but does it really justify craplogic like

["I can't lynch RECK if SerialC is voting me"]

Check out where ABR's vote is. (Granted, SerialClergyman was still voting for ABR at the time. But etc.)

I don't particularly have a problem with DDD. I looked over Appenine Mafia (where he was scum), and there is an interesting difference between past and present play (that I'll keep to myself, but etc.).

[Vi]

Vi, assume sando is town, who is scum?

The people I listed as more likely scum in my previous post would be a good place to start.

I'm still curious. Why Sando-Town?

---

@VP Baltar: I thought your goal was to learn

[someone other than ABR]

's alignment? Or are you working on that now?

---

Hey DDD. If you're saying xSCUMx is last-minute WIFOMing and we shouldn't ignore it, and half of what he's saying is about lynching you... isn't that at cross-purposes?

---

DDD is scum because he's flying under the radar under this guise of "Oh, I'm just not gonna participate because I'm cool like that. See, it's meta!" Though, the only game I've played with him and SC was Mayor Mafia, and DDD's lurking wasn't anywhere NEAR as bad that game. I think his vote on me, followed by him trying to take credit for "starting the wagon" when I think I was a very obvious wagon target (for the hammer yesterday) is scummy.

VPB, I 'unno, I don't like his exchanges with Ojanen.

Stale scumhunting is indeed stale...

What the hell. I might as well self-hammer. Any objections?

and fake AtE is indeed very fake.

Whenever you want the Day to end, put him back to L-1 and I'll hammer. (Voting him now would allow him to self-hammer, taking the end of the Day out of our control.)

[Vi]

If one of your major assumptions about who si scum is incorrect that doesn't cause you to rethink? You'd keep the same scum list?

Why would it? I don't use associative scumtells very often.

Explain sando's denouncement of the reck wagon, if reck is either town or scum, from a sando-scum perspective.

I don't think I would be a good person to ask about the workings of Sando's mind, because they make less than no sense from where I'm sitting.

xRx wasn't getting lynched the first time; that was the entire premise of my vote then. Denouncing the wagon, regardless of xRx's alignment, couldn't have been difficult to do. At present, Sando hasn't expressed an opinion of the people on xRx's wagon (but I'm assuming you're not referring to this one as the denounced wagon) and has deliberately avoided talking about him all Day. Aside from general spite and meanness considering I was the one asking those few times, I don't know why he would avoid the subject (as well as ABR+VP Baltar, another one of the blatantly obvious topics of the Day).

---

Oh sure, that is certainly something that I have looked at as well. Are you looking at going that way today? It doesn't appear that way from your last post necessarily.

Not today, unless xRx claims Innocent Child.

I would ask you (since I like having coded conversations with you right in front of everyone else ) how certain are you feeling about that person's alignment? I know I've been torn on it. Felt better day 1, but today is pretty blah.

I understand and kind of agree, although

blah

isn't quite strong enough for me. I think we should come back to this tomorrow though.

[Vi]

Reck had every chance of being lynched earlier. He was at L-1 with many people pushing his lynch (including Albert, whose ability to secure lynches of his suspects is in my mind his most valuable trait.

If he's town, sando put a lot of effort into pushing against the lynch. It would have been a really simple mislynch and instead he made what I think is a genuine effort to derail the wagon. If reck is scum, then sando would have had to be attempting a derail from L-1 and really creating ties with reck,

and I don't think sando would act like that either.

First bolded: That hammer would have been incredibly premature. I don't/didn't think anyone would have done it. As it turned out, I was right in this assumption (Sando voiced opposition to the wagon, Ojanen waffled, hito wasn't caught up, VP Baltar waited).

Second bolded: If I were in Sando's position as scum and xRx were Town, I would have opposed the heck out of that lynch to keep my own paws clean (and it didn't look like "a lot of effort"). With xRx-scum, I think that given how Sando looked like he was going to derail the wagon later that he would have gone for it.

You say that you found Sando pro-Town based on the derail, but what about everything else?

I'm not feeling the hito wagon particularly much right now, so--

Vote: Sando

(L-4)

---

VP Baltar: If ABR is scum, then why aren't you voting him?

[Vi]

Serial had a quick vote/unvote in there

wait what

Reck's flip improved your thoughts of the player who shall not be named?

I'm not sure what you mean by "improved". Intuition says I should look that way today, but I want to see where this first line of questioning goes first.

Vote:Sando post or die scumbaggio.

Just FYI: Sando's on limited access through the weekend.

wait what

[Vi]

Oh,

that

on/off vote. I thought you were talking about sometime late in the Day.

What's odd is that SC also didn't mention xRx after he hopped off, beyond

He's not scum.

No self voters are ever scum

...which I get the impression had more to do with joking than making a comment about xRex360.

Since we're not getting an answer out of Sando for a few days, let's go this way (>")>

Unvote: Sando
Vote: SerialClergyman

(L-4)

[Vi]

RECKONER would have at least waited that both scum be on his wagon until trying to off himself for the benefit of his partners. This is just common sense.

This means that VPB, who hammered after RECKONER voted himself, could be town. Or RECKONER voting himself could have been a signal for VPB to hammer.

But Serialclergyman comes out town out of this because he hopped off the RECKONER wagon.

You lost me.
IMO any theory that involves secret scum plans (i.e. signals) is a bad theory.
Also, SerialClergyman jumping off the xRx wagon would be what scum who saw a chance to

not

bus would do.

---

@DDD: How about that WIFOM from xRx's death?

---

I don't think sandoscum would wait so long to defend a buddy who was at L-1.

xRx wasn't at L-1 for very long when Sando posted.

Plus, when you said "let's lynch teh rex", your vote put him halfway to a lynch at that time. There were only two votes after yours, and one of those was doing exactly what you said.

[Vi]

@DDD: How about that WIFOM from xRx's death?

What exactly do you mean?

You said that you were willing to look at xRx's dying words (lynch teh DDD and teh Veep-Beep) regardless of how he flipped. Have you drawn a conclusion?

[Vi]

@Troll: Is ABR Town?
Why hito over SerialClergyman?

@hito: Nothing will ever come from a vote that isn't cast. I thought you said you were over this meta.~
Elaborate a bit on your thoughts about these two not getting lynched.

@DDD: What's your opinion of hito?

I get that I didn't 'start' the wagon on Reck. I think that my voting him directly lead to him being put to L-1 within a few votes and drew out reasons without votes from VP. All this doesn't matter, however, because I actively tried to diffuse his wagon afterwards and attacked one of his major attackers in Albert. I think on the whole, it's unreasonable to try to claim town points for pushing Reck's lynch. I was against it at the end, just wrongly so.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but I don't like what I think I'm reading.

I think both sides of the xRx vs. PCE debate have merit, but based on what I read of xRx's playstyle I don't really think it's a good tell either way. Yes, the wagon was pitched right to xRx (that was an obvious slowball for xRx, right down to "PRETTEH SCUMMEH"), but he then started wagoning PCE, but then I kind of think xRx would do that anyway.

[Vi]

Vi, you do find my Reck-wagon statements scummy?

More like your lack of xRx-wagon statements, if you're talking about D2.

Lastly, both Serial and I were fairly upset last game about the lack of NK speculation, giving scum free kills. Yet this game he hasn’t done anything to try and turn that around, and this is with him and Ojanen both being on the same wagon at the end of yesterday, VPB. Surely if it worried him so much last game, the NK of his wagon buddy would ring alarm bells for him...

I'm not sure I follow you here. Are you saying that VP Baltar is scum?

I don't know anything about SerialClergyman's meta, so I can't evaluate that. The rest of your case looks surprisingly decent.

---

I disagree with the individual statements he's making (his hitogoroshi is 100% scum stance is pretty ridiculous,

(...)

I voted hitogoroshi over SerialClergyman because my scum read on hitogoroshi is a bit stronger.

How certain are you that hito is scum?

[Vi]

So you don't find me scummy for derailing, but for a lack of comment on Reck himself? Fair enough. But you think I'm scum, therefor you must think that my comments about the wagon were scum trying desperately to save a scum-partner?

It's plausible that your derail had Town motivation. But then three questions are raised--
1) Why did you avoid talking about xRx (among others) yesterday?
2) Was your opposition to the first xRx wagon based on anything the wagonee actually

did

, or just the votes on the wagon?
3) You said you were primed to hate the second xRx wagon as well at the end of the Day, yet you haven't said anything about it yet. Your thoughts on how it went down?

[Vi]

1) I wasn't specifically trying to avoid it, but I didn't have much/anything to add. I found Reck slightly scummy, maybe enough to justify a vote, but probably not, and my misgivings about the wagon pushed me away from voting.

And what of the VP Rampage duo?

2) Well I wasn't a keen supporter of the wagon, irrespective of the wagonees, so that was a bad read from me. But my opposition to the wagon was because of the wagoners, yes. If not for my misgivings about that, I might have voted, I might not have, but I wouldn't have raised serious doubts about the wagon.

I guess you can say my lack of vote was Reck-action driven, my opposition was wagoner misgivings driven.

But you said yesterday that you were waiting on hito to finish reading. If the hito/Porkchop slot is scum as you say, wouldn't that be at cross-purposes?
I'm curious as to what gave you a neutral read on xRx considering you were one of the people asking him questions

before

the wagon particularly took off. (In particular, he didn't directly answer your last question )

3) I don't think I ever said I was primed to hate it.

Those aren't your words, but these are.

I thought the last wagon was terrible, I'll look at this latest one today.

...which regardless of the letter of what you said looks like you were ready to disapprove of it.

DDD and Zorblag were still there, and while I didn't find him scummy, Zorblag's play reminded me very much of my lynch last game, where he simply voted and stayed on someone because nothing better came up.

I've expressed my suspicion of Hito today, and I started to have general misgivings about him late yesterday.

ABR avoids questions and justifications, but I didn't mind the return to Reck.

But I was probably most suspicious of Serial, Vi and Hito at the end of yesterday, so since Serial and Vi weren't on it, and I didn't think any of the votes looked opportunistic or the like, and I didn't mind as much how people joined, I was less concerned with the second wagon.

Again, I thought you had general misgivings about the PorkchopExpress slot as early as D1?

---

Go tell VP about that dog with a bone bit, it might be useful for another game.

Dot. Dot. Dot.

This happens regularly to me. ><. Reck wasn't worth saving if I was his buddy, especially not in such a public manner.

Why not?

As it turned out, I misread the results as -scum are piling onto easy wagon- rather than -everyone agrees he's obvscum-

I don't buy it precisely because you started this halfway through the wagon.

---

DDD, who is scum?

[Vi]

Unvote: SerialClergyman

Too much to catch up on tonight, but from what I skimmed I'm

not

ready for this Day to end.

[Vi]

After browsing the last six pages, here's my first reaction:

While I 105% hated hito 946, hito 998 looks for all the world like something I would post on a Townscramble (except with much more appeal to own alignment), and that plus "the mechanism" is giving me considerable pause. I'm not getting the same vibes from SerialClergyman, but the words are there. So my first impulse - as per my previous post - is to stop, derail, reverse. But ABR is insistent that this is not an option.

Understand that this is my first truly Open game. I'm not used to caring about outing Masons, etc. because if they were playing a solid Town game, they wouldn't get outed in the first place (and since these setups were closed, I wouldn't know they were there to be outed). I would like to know (from multiple sources if possible) about how big a deal it is that we

necessarily

lynch one of the two claimed Vanillas today.

---

Druglord Baltar: Could you clearly outline why you think hito is scum, and how confident you are that hito is scum?

[Vi]

So my first impulse - as per my previous post - is to stop, derail, reverse.

I'm all about exploring options that make sense, but I think we both know that sometimes your derails are unnecessary and have stopped wagons on scum. I'd like to hear who you think the scum are if not these two.

Well, if hito && SC are not scum, it would most likely be someone who doesn't want the hito/SC wagons derailed. That would be you/Trollblag/ABR.

Sense enough?

Druglord Baltar: Could you clearly outline why you think hito is scum, and how confident you are that hito is scum?

It's largely based on Reck's meta, as I said. If you want to add to that, I don't get townie scramble from his post, I see scummy scramble. The mechanism seems pretty contrived to me and I don't like how he's clearing Serial because of ABR.

I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. Please explain.

This is the first time in a long while that I've heard of someone being painted scum because of someone

else

's meta. Seriously?

----

Troll: Would you like to talk about someone other than hito or SerialClergyman?

What are you getting at with that last question? I don't understand what you're trying to learn from it.

@Vi, this is my first time in this setup but I'm inclined to think that with the information we've got to work with we should be lynching the one who has the greatest chance to be scum given the claims that we've got and who they came from. I don't think the particular pigeonholing concern that Albert B. Rampage mentions isn't that much of an issue for a couple reasons but unless we collectively felt there was a reason to think that someone else had a greater chance of being scum there isn't any a good reason to draw more claims out and there is another issue which is hinted at by the pigeonholing that is worth trying to avoid.

Could you say that more succinctly?

----

Are you kidding me? This is the situation I'm least worried about. If we lynch SC and he flips scum, we're not in LYLO and there's only one scum left. You can do a lot worse in that situation than lynching someone who is a.) not a mason and b.) totally wrong about everything.

hito is Town; get off his wagon.

---

For ABR:

I would like to know (from multiple sources if possible) about how big a deal it is that we

necessarily

lynch one of the two claimed Vanillas today.

[Vi]

Hey SC. Pretend you're ABR for a moment and answer the last question in that post.

[Vi]

Interesting. We simulposted the same scum list.

Well, yes. It's basically "everyone left after you take out DDD, Sando, and the two people being wagoned".

Vote: VP Baltar

(L-4)

[Vi]

Why are you taking out sando?

He's not pushing hito && SerialClergyman, or at least he wasn't the last time I checked.

Then I rechecked, and I appear to be wrong on that count <.< So never mind that.

Also, no comment on imagining myself (or my avatar) with a goatee.

[Vi]

U. Vote Count

:arrow: SerialClergyman (L-2) ~ Sando, ABR, VP Baltar
VP Baltar (L-3) ~ Vi, SerialClergyman
hitogoroshi (L-3) ~ Troll, DDD
ABR (L-4) ~ hitogoroshi

8 alive -> 5 to lynch
No deadline anywhere

More to come.

[Vi]

Vi - this is what I thought was interesting. Are you sticking with sando town or is he in the pool?

Not really. Sando and DDD aren't on this list for what reason?

I've acknowledged that I was incorrect about Sando not pushing both hito and SC. So he's back in the pool of people I'd like to look into, albeit on the shallow end because I still like his case coming from a motivation perspective - he came out and attacked someone who had previously not had any vote-type pressure (barring me and to a lesser extent VP Baltar at the beginning of D3) with a meta argument Sando-scum would be out of his gourd to fake.

The reason I called DDD-Town earlier was because his vote record has mostly been early on wagons, which is different from Appenine Mafia where he shamelessly jumped around late on wagons.
While I don't like his votes individually, the gist of things so far is that he's not hurting anything or anyone, so I would like to look at the people who ARE moving and shaking before going on to seriously consider him again.

Seriously. For all of his stupendous scumminess, Reckoner seems to me to have a limited bag of tricks at this point in his mafia career. I see no reason to believe that he wouldn't play to his scum meta here. It's not damning evidence of course, but logically I think it does fit with his play D1 and why he would vote PCE over charlatan even though he talked about the latter about 10 times as much in his catch up post.

So your case on hitogoroshi is that xRx is extremely predictable, essentially.
Doesn't that seem just slightly feeble? especially as the bulk of the case.

Please (VPB and DDD) explain your thoughts on hito 998 being scummy and contrived.

Vi, who--bless her heart--is overly susceptible to distrusting obvious facts.

Why would you take out the two people being wagoned? Why??

After being out of the loop for a week, I felt/feel like I'm replacing into this game. I'm coming back and while catching up all the reads I was picking up were more or less opposite what they were before. So right now, I'm calling things as I see them.
Now if someone could kindly explain

what

"obvious facts" I'm missing, it would be reasonably helpful.

Thor isn't going to split open the skies and send thunderbolts to destroy the town if we make another bandwagon. It's simply extremely unwise.

Why?

The vote count makes me <_<.

[Vi]

Now you are claiming that you have new reads. That is not what you said earlier.

I know my version of reading comprehension is always a little off, but this doesn't suggest "new reads"?

While I 105% hated hito 946, hito 998 looks for all the world like something I would post on a Townscramble (except with much more appeal to own alignment), and that plus "the mechanism" is giving me considerable pause. I'm not getting the same vibes from SerialClergyman, but the words are there. So my first impulse - as per my previous post - is to stop, derail, reverse.

So with that out of the picture Vi, I ask you, why would you give all these players absolution? Do you want the two scum to be among myself, VPB and Zorblag?

Impressive rhetorical question.
I took out the two people being wagoned (that being

the point

) and two people I thought were not contributing to the sketchy behavior I saw so I could focus on the people who were left.
This is really not rocket surgery.

Also, I'm guessing from your fish that the two-wagon limit really isn't that necessary.

I have perfectly explained why and when I turned around with Serialclergyman. I expect at least the same from you with SC, VPB and hitogoroshi.

I'm afraid I'm going to fall short of your expectations, as I can't provide a post-by-post chronology of my opinions.

I've already explained hito and VP Baltar well enough for people who read my posts to get the idea.
My change of opinion on SerialClergyman came about around 1028. It's not strong enough for me to call for mass unvotes like with hito 998, but it was enough to get me to unvote so the hito+SC doublewagon could get an examination.

In the meantime,

Now if someone could kindly explain what "obvious facts" I'm missing, it would be reasonably helpful.

This is still open.

---

Who is more likely to be town after the townflip of the other, me or hito?

What is your purpose in asking this question?

[Vi]

SerialClergyman, who are you in favor of lynching today?

VP Baltar - I took a look through xRx's scum meta and I don't see the xRECKLESSx bussing you do outside Perfectionist Mafia, which was just one of four games.
And without that, the worthwhile points you've raised vs. hito go down to a change in opinion on Sando, which is minor IMO.
Why are you still trying to frame hito as scum?

I don't buy the arguments against Albert B. Rampage or VP Baltar.

Why not?
Why are you (still) voting hito over anyone else?

I don't agree with DDD 1117. hito 998 reminded me very much of my first game onsite, where I was willing to pull out whatever stops I could to avoid being lynched (many of which just put me further down in the eyes of everyone else). Stuff like trying to fit together the big picture and bargaining to show that what's being proposed isn't worse than any other ideas isn't really unexpected.
What would hito-Town have posted instead?

[Vi]

Why are you still trying to frame hito as scum?

Why do I beat my wife? I dunno....

*scribbles note to self: "Seek marital counselor"*

If that's an objection to the question, I don't understand it.

Anyway, at some point are you going to vote SC so we can get on lynching scum?

Couldn't have said it better...Vi is just delaying the inevitable.

... <.<*
I feel like I'm getting nowhere here. And as much as I don't want to admit it, SerialClergyman is presently the only wagon with enough support to lead to a lynch.

I want to wait for one more post from SerialClergyman.

[Vi]

If that's an objection to the question, I don't understand it.

It was an objection to the rhetoric of it. I don't feel I've been "trying to frame hito as scum". That implies his innocence from the start, and consequently implies my attack is scummy. I simply stated the facts as I see them. You're welcome to have a different interpretation, but it is hardly a frame job...which is disturbingly close in allegation to THE MECHANISM *da da daaaaaaaaaaaaah*

Okay, wrong use of "frame". "Portray", then.

I feel like I'm getting nowhere here. And as much as I don't want to admit it, SerialClergyman is presently the only wagon with enough support to lead to a lynch.

I'm not trying to dismiss a case on someone else out of hand, but I'm just not seeing convincing arguments against anyone else and SC's floundering to have any real idea of what's going on stinks to me.

I think we know your stance on hito, but what do you really think of SC? Do you subscribe to THE MECHANISM or do you think it's possible that SC just tagged along with that because it's convenient for him?

The reason I asked SerialClergyman who should be lynched is because it's true that he's floundering; lots of defense, no ideas for offense (his vote is on you, but he doesn't seem to be acting like you're scum) beyond bracing himself for his own lynch. This is to stand in contrast with hito trying to turn his situation around, throwing reasonable names out, and generally trying to plow in that direction. So it's not implausible that SerialClergyman tried to catch the current, but at the same time I wouldn't expect scum to be as accepting of being lynched. (Although the reason I asked why he was trying to determine which of hito/SC would be a better lynch was because he had already answered that question himself.)
It's not a

bad

lynch, but I feel ambivalent about it.

I think THE MECHANISM - in terms of people chaining lynches - will speak for itself tomorrow if one of hito/SC is lynched today. I do agree with one consequence of the idea - ABR+SC is not likely.

I don't think anyone but SerialClergyman would NK Ojanen. Apparently, and according to him, she knows how to read him as scum.

Did you just think of this?

[Vi]

It looks like SC is going to be the lynch. Now, it seems he's prepared for it, but I want to point something out. We are in some kind of game twilight zone where we have someone who is willing to be the mislynch that sends us into LYLO (usual disclaimer of, if SC is scum lynch me I'm wrong about everything etc.). He's doing it because we both realized the undercurrent behind events and are trying to put the game on track. It's just cheapening the whole damn thing to say 'well if SC is town we can think about that later.'

If SC is going to be the lynch today, I want to hear some actual, serious speculation about what it would mean if he flips town, before any lynch happens. If someone is willing to die for what it would say about the gamestate you do not get to dodge the question and defer it until after the scum can chat about it in their QT.

So who's you're preference today then? Me?

A question and an answer before I say anything!

I can't tell if you're pushing hito as scum or Town anymore, and your sidestep of my question - rephrased for your convenience! - isn't making it go away.

ABR - why post 1133 when you did, then?

And then there's...

@Vi, my vote is still on hitogoroshi because I think he's still the most likely to be scum. I don't buy the case on Albert B. Rampage because it doesn't seem to take into account how I expect him to play. I don't buy the case on VP Baltar because his actions from day one forward in terms of suspicions and who he's choosing to attack form a pretty reasonable path for which I fail to see great scum motivations. I don't take VP Baltar's dislike of hitogoroshi to be simply a product of xRECKONERx's scum play as you seem to be doing; instead it seems as though xRECKONERx's scum meta not being inconsistent with hitogoroshi as scum seems to have removed a concern he expressed near the start of the day.

You know, there's a

really obvious

other party you're not mentioning.

I don't take VP Baltar's dislike of hitogoroshi to be simply a product of xRECKONERx's scum play as you seem to be doing; instead it seems as though xRECKONERx's scum meta not being inconsistent with hitogoroshi as scum seems to have removed a concern he expressed near the start of the day.

This doesn't answer the question: Why suspect hito?

---

I'm going to go reread. (>")>
I'm usually against the grain, but not

this much

.

[Vi]

...

Unvote: VP Baltar
Vote: SerialClergyman

(L-1)

[Vi]

I'm feeling physically disgusted while reading this discussion. At this point we're just being toyed with.

[Vi]

By whom Vi

SerialClergyman

[Vi]

I suppose I should get my thoughts down in case I get night killed. This has been a very long and largely frustrating day, but for all of the failures this day isn't going to end with me being a knock-in-and-scum-win mislynch tomorrow and I can take some measure of pride in that.

At least one (and possibly

both) of Albert/Zorblag/VPB

pretty much has to be scum, I think. Hopefully there's one mason among that group and they can try to piece it out. In particular I don't know why no one wants to think Albert is scum - if I die, please, at least PRETEND to give a bit of thought on the idea, for my sake.

Even though I am still staunchly convinced SC is going to be a mislynch today, I can't help but think that Sando's case isn't scum motivated. I don't know why and my gut isn't exactly the most reliable thing in the universe, but there it is.

I still have no read on DDD, and for whatever reason this doesn't fill me with a sense of impending dread. I guess that's also a gut town read? I'll probably ISO him tomorrow if I'm still around and try to get a bit more definitive.

As for Vi...well, while I can easily see scum-Vi just trying to grab my support by paying lip service to the theory, what the hell, if you're scum it worked. If I'm killed tonight I'm glad to know there will be at least one person in the town who knows where I'm coming from.

I understand why you're all voting SC now. If he flips scum - well, I just a giant ass of myself and it's a good thing that you guys were there to cover for me.

I don't think he's flipping scum, though. And on an SC townflip - hopefully that'll give the town out of the hole that I couldn't myself. That's all I'm really after, whether or not I'm there myself.

This post is the difference between hito and SerialClergyman. (Although not because of the bolded grammar fail )

[Vi]

I'm also interested in hearing this DDD case.

[Vi]

Hey hito, what are you going to do to find out which of those is the case?

[Vi]

Once again I'm going on extended V/LA during LyLo. Pastel me thrilled.

I'm keeping quiet because I'm waiting on everyone else to finally arrive at their positions before bringing out my own conclusions. Of course, this only really works if everyone actually posts.

I should have very sporadic Internet access through the rest of the week and I can PM myself my notes, so I shouldn't be completely out for five days.

--

Whatever chief; in Appenine I whored myself out to whatever lynch we could get and get quickest. In this game I’m the only person who hasn’t been voting confirmed town at deadline: you, Vi, and Zorblag were all on the D1 mislynch, PCE was on another town wagon; I was voting for scum. Vi was also voting for a pro-town player on D2 while I helped lynch scum. And on D3 Hito was voting a pro-town player; while VPB, Vi, and Zorblag all contributed to the mislynch. Scumhunting is just the tool to find and lynch scum and by that standard you have absolutely no place to chide me. For all your “scumhunting” you’ve lynched more town than scum; the same cannot be said about me.

That's a strange way of presenting yourself as holier than the thous down here...

Let's turn that around. Why

weren't

you on the other wagons?

[Vi]

And then on D3 SC finally started posting in a fashion consistent with my town meta of him while Hito's arguments and activity seemed forced to me and PCE had been one of my scummier reads on D1.

When was this decision made?

[Vi]

@Vi, is there some reason that you in particular should be the last to share your conclusions? I know that to some degree someone has to but I find it odd that you've decided it should be you and that come out publicly with that as your plan.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Of course.

I don't just accidentally wind up in LyLo, so I have some doubt in what I've dug up and would like to see what everyone else thinks before doing the usual Last Stand and impressing the benighted public with my views.
However, I don't know where anyone else stands right now... yourself included. Another reason for me to wait is to ensure that others' conclusions aren't being worked around mine. (Yes, I AM being difficult~)

But enough about me. How about

you

laying down some words to commit to?

[Vi]

I'm here, but tired.

[Vi]

Talking of actual opinions, there's someone else who is going well out of his way to not give any.

[Vi]

More or less, yes, we're on the same page.

What changed about hito?

--

I think I'll go ahead and post what I have tomorrow morning.

[Vi]

By "tomorrow morning" I meant "tomorrow night"~
I do have a few more questions to ask though.

For DDD:

I really liked Amished's policy point against Rec

How so?

And then on D3 SC finally started posting in a fashion consistent with my town meta of him

What IS your Town meta of him?

For hito: I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this question already, but could you describe the difference between your scum meta and your Town meta? (Yes, of course this is an uncomfortable question!)

[Vi]

Here's a question for you guys - when DDD unvoted SerialClergyman D3, how inevitable was an SC wagon looking? I still think scum were looking to chain mislynches (even though my top candidate for scum was actually just doing lord-knows-what) and both Zorblag and VP had the 'lynch either' mentality. DDD expressed a strong preference for me over SC later in the day - but that's kind of what I would expect IF the scum thought that SC was getting lynched and I was not.

I was the one who unvoted SerialClergyman, precisely because I

didn't

want an SC lynch to be inevitable. So much for that, etc.

My questions to DDD were trying to divine how genuine his previous moves were because of how little he has said throughout the game. I think I'm okay enough atm.
I do like hito's nonvague response to me about his scum meta; I think newbscum would be more "afraid" to answer tbh.
But at this point I'm spoiling my wallpost.

[Vi]

Vi (66)

~ VP Baltar,

Ojanen

,

Scien

Scien (114)

~

Amished,

Vi

, VP Baltar,

charlatan

VP Baltar (239) ~

SerialClergyman

,

ABR

,

Scien

ABR (251)

~

charlatan

, VP Baltar,

Amished

PorkchopExpress (302) ~

Sando, Ojanen

,

Vi

DDD (392) ~

Amished

,

Vi

, PorkchopExpress

charlatan (432)

~

SerialClergyman

, Troll,

ABR

, VP Baltar,

Sando

PorkchopExpress (508) ~

ABR

,

xRx

,

Sando, Ojanen

charlatan (573)

~

SerialClergyman

, Troll, VP Baltar,

Amished

,

Vi

,

ABR

,

xRx

PorkchopExpress (647) ~

Ojanen

,

xRx

,

Sando

xRx (677)

~ DDD, Troll,

SerialClergyman, ABR

,

Vi

ABR (710)

~

SerialClergyman

, VP Baltar, hitogoroshi

xRx (842, 873)

~ DDD, Troll,

VP Baltar

,

ABR

, hitogoroshi,

xRx

, VP Baltar

SerialClergyman (946)

~

Vi

,

Sando

, VP Baltar, hitogoroshi

hitogoroshi (950) ~

ABR, SerialClergyman

, Troll, VP Baltar

SerialClergyman (1173)

~

Sando, ABR

, VP Baltar,

Vi

, Troll

---

Name - Rank/Votes = Quotient (average place on wagons) as of the end of D3

VPB - 33/11 = 3.00
hito - 19/7 - 2.71
Troll - 15/6 = 2.50
Vi - 29/13 = 2.33
DDD - 9/6 = 1.50

---

The three deaths starting from D3 really didn't change anything about my opinions, and neither did the reread. So I put together this wagon analysis and saw how it fit in with things. Not surprisingly, it fit what I was thinking too. I waited to post this today in order to confirm my theory - after I post this, the ensuing conversation will most likely be in the context of this post. I wanted to see where everyone would go on their own... and that, too, has validated my analysis. So this is what I have.

Notice that the only place that DDD shows up on the above wagonalysis is on the xRx wagon. Or in other words, he has not pushed any significant Town wagons. It's very difficult to do that unplanned as scum, simply because sooner or later the risk of joining a wagon will outweigh the reward of getting your Win Condition fulfilled sooner. As mentioned before, his vote record is very much different from Appenine Mafia, where (as he said) he hoed himself out to whatever good wagon he could reasonably justify jumping to. This is not much different from what I was saying D3.

The major caveat here is that I don't like the attitude this knowledge has given him Today.

In this game I’m the only person who hasn’t been voting confirmed town at deadline: you, Vi, and Zorblag were all on the D1 mislynch, PCE was on another town wagon; I was voting for scum. Vi was also voting for a pro-town player on D2 while I helped lynch scum. And on D3 Hito was voting a pro-town player; while VPB, Vi, and Zorblag all contributed to the mislynch. Scumhunting is just the tool to find and lynch scum and by that standard you have absolutely no place to chide me. For all your “scumhunting” you’ve lynched more town than scum; the same cannot be said about me.

...which starts to lend credence to ABR's idea that there was a superbus going on D2, since this would play directly into this idea and DDD is certainly conscious of his clean-ish voting record. What further bothers me is that DDD seems to have relented on this "perfect record" by calling hito Town.

With that said - this being added a few minutes ago - I think I like DDD's responses to the questions I've asked today. I'm mostly concerned about this possibility in case I'm not correct about VPB/Troll.

-----

In the heet of the ogoroshi, at risk of repeating myself I can understand the hate against him pre-MECHANISM. His SerialClergyman vote was hideous, and the xRx vote was sketcho too considering in 804 xRx seemed to drop off the scumdar entirely.

Starting at THE MECHANISM and moving on, however, hito started saying some very different things.
*He would rather be lynched over other top suspect SerialClergyman that Day
*He freely gave away his scum meta (yes, I

was

interested in seeing it, and yes, I

have

read it) at the first opportunity
*A transparent awareness of the game state in hito 1062 (as mentioned by me later)
All of these are strong Town-tells - especially for a newbish player - and all of these were made in the latter part of Day 3. While I can understand why people had their votes on hito, I don't understand why they stayed there.

At present I still have no particular interest in lynching hito.

---

Put simply, Troll's posts have put the

blag

in Zorblag. I got a mildly positive read from his posts at the end of D3 and D4 (I would not have been as generous with SerialClergyman at the end of D3, personally), but everything else is made of walls of unreadable, halfway meaningless drivel.
So I've been trying to break into the icebergposts and get into what he's trying to say, usually without significant success. In particular, I still have little idea why he pushed hito all the way through D3 because he never talked about him after voting him. I do have to agree with SerialClergyman that Troll's questions didn't seem to have "points" behind them, at least not particularly applicable points. Today he has made no effort to help find scum in spite of some very obvious hints to do so. This is obvious coasting, something you don't expect from a Townie who wants to hit pay dirt in LyLo. Bets are good that scum is in this direction.

---

VP Baltar my other top candidate for scum. More than anyone else, he pushed the SerialClergyman/hito lynches D3. I'm the last person qualified to say that's a bad thing in and of itself, but what IS a bad thing is how so much of it looked like empty ABR-style pressure; he basically bullied his vote onto SerialClergyman. I never did get an answer about why he was pushing hito, or at least one that wasn't as terrible as "xRx's meta". Plus, the comment about the two assassins joining in the end seemed really contrived tbh.
More or less as expected, Today VP Baltar has been doing isolation reads but hasn't come out with very solid conclusions. So far we have an awkward scumread on DDD, no conclusive read on Troll, and "very slightly Town" on hito, which is something of a stretch considering the points I'm calling out as transparently Town have been noted. But the walls are really large and impressive-looking!

Also,

**Side question for hito, have you felt intimdated by this player list at all during this game?

I was kind of hoping you'd say yes.

Oh, really
Wasn't that used as a(n accurate) scumtell in a game all three of us just got out of?~

The average wagon placement speaks for itself in regards to VP Baltar in particular.
The only person throughout the game (RVS aside) who has had a higher average wagon placement was xRx (who

would

considering he hammered D1 and nearly self-hammered D2).

---
@
---

tl;dr
Troll, VP Baltar, DDD, hito; in that order

[Vi]

@Vi - your wagon analysis is very poor at best

Why.

and I find it quite humorous that every piece of evidence you are looking at fits your hypothesis.

Refute me please.

This is a scientific first indeed.

[Vi]

wagon placement =/= universal scumtell.

Yep, I knew that. That doesn't stop it from being accurate enough in practice to warrant being used.
Or do you claim to be some kind of playstyle-exception? Even ABR the fscking legend looks better on the analysis.

Or if we want specifics on those votes,

Sorry to say, but SC got himself lynched. He looked scummy and I don't feel bad about. Also, I think you're familiar enough with my play to know how I roll, so meh about you calling my arguments empty. They are what they are and I push what I think is the best lead at the time, even if you think it's 'lol badxRx meta'.

I'll grant that SerialClergyman was doing his best to look scummy, which is one reason why I stopped fighting his lynch. "How you roll" has little to do with how your vote got onto SC, though (#143 - #145) - when I say you "bullied" it onto him, that's precisely what happened, with all the juvenile ABR-trappings tacked on.

The hito vote came at an opportune time - hito had just voted SerialClergyman to L-1 with a terrible post, and your vote put hito up to L-1 for a flimsy excuse.

---

More or less as expected, Today VP Baltar has been doing isolation reads

but hasn't come out with very solid conclusions.

...should be more clear.

Seriously though, I've been pretty clear all of today with my thoughts and have easily put in the most effort thus far. My iso posts are hardly void of content, which seems to be what you are implying here, so I think that's pretty unfair to say.

At this stage in the game, I don't think that walls qualify as "content" when there is no conclusion attached.
"Oh this is good - oh this is bad - oh this I'm not sure about" neither convicts anyone nor convinces anyone, and is therefore useless.

I have things I want to say once I've fully addressed everyone in iso.

Or you can just throw them out now if you have enough information.

[Vi]

Yep, I knew that. That doesn't stop it from being accurate enough in practice to warrant being used.
Or do you claim to be some kind of playstyle-exception? Even ABR the fscking legend looks better on the analysis

I'm not claiming to be any kind of exception, but playing the ages old third vote on a wagon is scum card is pretty weak. Maybe if it was 2005 that'd be an accurate scumtell.

While I disagree with your point in theory, what's more interesting is that I never said anything about you being third on a particular wagon. What I showed was that

on average

you were third on the wagon with each vote throughout the game. That's pretty hard to do as Town

unless

you're the Cobalt/TonyMontana type.
Or in another sense: How many wagons have

you

tried to start?

The hito vote came at an opportune time - hito had just voted SerialClergyman to L-1 with a terrible post, and your vote put hito up to L-1 for a flimsy excuse.

Do you think hito looked scummy before that vote?

A bit, although the SC vote was what really put me over. That doesn't mean I'm fine with people joining the wagon for reasons that don't check out, especially now that I believe hito is Town.

At this stage in the game, I don't think that walls qualify as "content" when there is no conclusion attached.
"Oh this is good - oh this is bad - oh this I'm not sure about" neither convicts anyone nor convinces anyone, and is therefore useless.

So DDD and Troll being my top picks for scum at the start of the day aren't solid conclusions? You (and hito) of all people should know the game my hesitation from rushing lylo is coming from. I want to take the time to look at everything as objectively as possible and arrive at the best lynch. If that means me spewing out some thoughts and reserve my conclusions at the moment, then deal with it.

While I can see where and how you said that earlier, it was certainly easy to miss and rather noncommittal~
If you're referring to tubby's game, rushing LyLo had nothing to do with how we lost that game.
You have me with the last sentence. >.>

Also, if I were rushing LyLo, I would have voted already.~

Also, how likely do you think it is that scum would try to bus their partner today Vi?

In terms of

planning

to bus, I don't know (given that this is LyLo, I wouldn't particularly expect it). In terms of

actually

bussing at the first sign of danger, not really that unlikely at all.
Your thoughts on the subject?

Incidentally, is there anyone you're interested in calling defTown? or would that be spoiling your conclusions?

---

What's most interesting is the set of opinions people have given about hitogoroshi today.

I can see any pairing of

[{DDD, Vi, hito}]

without too much difficulty.

Please elaborate.

[Vi]

Or in another sense: How many wagons have you tried to start?

I don't know. Look back in the thread. I'm not saying I've played my best game ever, but categorizing it as nothing but following is a touch simplistic and not really representative of my play. In terms of the average point, yes you're not pointing to a specific wagon, but it's still the same overall message, isn't it?

I can answer that question for you - you started the Vi wagon with the first vote of the game
I'll grant that that point on its own is a touch simplistic, but it doesn't change that it's a dominant theme of your play. And no, it's not the "same overall message".

While I can see where and how you said that earlier, it was certainly easy to miss and rather noncommittal~
If you're referring to tubby's game, rushing LyLo had nothing to do with how we lost that game.

I don't believe it was all that non-committal, especially when no one else was really even talking. It's not like I was feeling out people's opinions on it and seeing what would be a good mislynch. I plainly said, 'My gut says X at the moment, but I definitely want to read and discuss as much as possible today'. Not sure what your issue with that is.

As far as tubby's game, it was certainly not the MAIN issue that we lost that game, but I do think that you guys voted rather quickly and for little reason there. Something to think about.

I think you're embellishing what you said in #164 quite a bit.~
Your reference to tubby's game has gone into ridiculous territory, considering *you were one of the people voting, and *no amount of discussion would have found the scum anyway.

Incidentally, is there anyone you're interested in calling defTown? or would that be spoiling your conclusions?

Hito would probably be my closest call to defTown, though that's kind of strong language. I think his play would be kind of hard to fake as scum. Hito seems like a pretty smart guy, however, so it's not

impossible

that he's pulling the wool over my eyes.

So you don't have any Town reads that are worth much, given that you said you had a "very slightly Town" read on hito (#172)?

I'm reasonably confident in my DDD read at the moment. There are a few things that worry me (the egoism and the Amished vote, as well as the hito vote D3 based on intuition) but the fact remains that he hasn't been pushing Town lynches, which is pretty creditable on its own.

[Vi]

How long do you plan to argue semantics? I just very clearly said that hito would be the top of my town reads, why is that not sufficient for you?

I think the fact that you are stating your town reads are so clear in Lylo like this is suspicious given your penchant for being fairly probing normally.

Actually, that wasn't intended to be as much of an accusation. I noticed that you're the only person who hasn't stated one

very likely

Town read.
This is true LyLo, so targeting someone other than yourself has a 50/50 chance of hitting scum. If you can (accurately) identify a Townie, that goes up to 2/3. Two, and you can box the scum in with PoE. Obviously, being correct is important, but it should be entirely doable by this point.

As far as being confident goes, I've been confident about hito for a long time for reasons stated multiple times, and I think you're giving him

way

too much credit based on his scum game. While DDD hasn't been my favorite person for a number of reasons also previously stated, the options are either that he's Town or he has been planning from D2 at the latest to let the game go by without him. On the one hand, that sort of plan is entirely within DDD's character. On the other hand, it requires a deliberate plan (not often seen in practice) and the you+Troll box that would result from him being Town is quite plausible.
And again, if I were completely confident, I would have voted already.

I'm curious as to where everyone else went.

Do you feel

[DDD has]

been pushing lynches in general in this game?

No.

[Vi]

Actually, that wasn't intended to be as much of an accusation. I noticed that you're the only person who hasn't stated one very likely Town read.
This is true LyLo, so targeting someone other than yourself has a 50/50 chance of hitting scum. If you can (accurately) identify a Townie, that goes up to 2/3. Two, and you can box the scum in with PoE. Obviously, being correct is important, but it should be entirely doable by this point.

I don't disagree with you that a strong town read or two at this point can all but win this game for us. I guess I just feel a bit burned after tubby's game because I took that route too quickly and it cost us.

Once again, we weren't going to find Sotty out anyway.

I was waiting for the Troll's promised analysis that I thought we were going to get last night.

You actually expected it?~

---

I skimmed you last night

The Mechanism is just really weird to consider coming from town,

I'm pretty sure I've already said this before, but THE MECHANISM is precisely what I would expect from Town.
Why would scum offer to be lynched before anyone, never mind someone who turned out to be Town?

I'm still quite bothered by your DDD town-read because I think his play this game actually fits very well with what he is capable as scum. Look how much credit he tried to take for xRx's lynch when in reality he did nothing for it. Look at how he is trying to bolster his towniness based on his voting record. I understand that your hesitation in thinking he would bus reck like that, but also consider Troll's general absence that day. If I was looking at them as a scum team, it looks like a perfect bus in the sense that they did nothing real to push it and yet can claim credit later for being a part of it.

For one, I don't think Troll has ever claimed Town credit for lynching xRx.
For another, I'm not hesitating because DDD was on the scumwagon; I'm hesitating because DDD was

only

on the scumwagon.

I looked into your accusation that DDD didn't do much to help the xRx wagon along, and you're essentially correct.
I'm not entirely sure what DDD was up to in insisting that we should look at the last words of someone he maintained would flip scum. Yes, it's not a bad idea, but the insistence - especially when half of those words incriminated DDD himself - is odd.

[Vi]

Hey hito, what is your response to Troll calling you "sophisticated scum"?

It's going to take every townie working together to lynch scum

This isn't necessarily true.
In practice there is overwhelming pressure to bus if things start to go south. (or maybe that's just me)
Then again, in most games people don't lay their thoughts out as methodically as we have.

---

Day two I should have been around more. I cast my vote for the person I thought was scummiest based on his day one actions at the start of the day and then I didn't see a need to change it. In that case happily I was right about my suspicions.

How many chances did you have to change your vote?

There's something to be said for deciding that you don't need to seriously consider one of the players on a given day as scum because the scum are more likely to be found among the others (and everyone this game including myself seems largely to be doing that) but town is much better off if they aren't writing anyone off as obvtown.

That depends on how strong your Town read is, nya~
There's something to be said for deliberately keeping all of your options open, but eventually you DO have to decide that you're least willing to lynch

someone

(as opposed to "Iunno which of you is scum but this person seems most likely") (unless you're scum, in which case keeping your options open is a great idea). Taking them off the menu is simply acknowledging what you're already thinking. It doesn't necessarily mean you stop looking at them altogether, although I can see how someone could read that into what I'm saying.

Meanwhile, what are you doing with VP Baltar?

[Vi]

I certainly could have changed my day two vote when I was looking over the game leading up to my Post 750 but there was no reason for me to make a change then.

Fascinating... You only mention in passing anything xRx had said or done in that post. That was your first post after xRx was dropped off from L-1 through tumultuous drama, etc.

---

When you put it like that I can understand the reasoning behind not shelving anyone. With that said,

As you say there does need to be some narrowing down of people that you're willing to lynch.

...you seem to understand what I'm trying to say.

I'm not sure quite what you're getting at with

not

being willing to lynch someone vs. saying that you're not sure who scum is but that one person needs to be the most likely. Town clearly have to do the first if they've got any chance of scum getting lynched. They should also clearly be doing the second as the way to get to the first.

You would have less trouble if the operative word was thrown in.~

---

Also, on an unrelated note, do you have any reaction to hitogoroshi having finished Mini 922 as scum and not bringing that to our attention in the thread quickly as a means to double the scum meta we would have to work with for him? Personally I don't think it's relevant on it's own; I've glanced at the game and I don't think that his play there is particularly similar to his play here and I don't think that sort of reporting is valuable as an alignment tell anyhow but you apparently felt it was a good thing for him to have done with his other game.

My reaction is to let hito answer that himself, as per my previous post.
I will note that posting the previous game was more impressing IMO because it was his

first scum game

(unless I'm mistaken, I don't think hito plays offsite).

[Vi]

Once again, why am I one of only two people ITT? Deadline is now in six days.

@Vi, my vote was on xRECKONERx when I made post 750 which should convey some thoughts about him reasonably well. Had I wanted to say new things about him I would have but there wasn't a huge reason to. Nothing he had done recently changed the reasons that I suspected him. What would you expect me to have said about him there?

Perhaps why you are still voting him over anyone else? Or at least some affirmation that your vote is where it is for good reason?

I still think you're misreading what I said--

but eventually you DO have to decide that you're least willing

[or most unwilling]

is what I said, as opposed to

but eventually you DO have to decide that you're

at

least willing

--but at this point I think this is turning into a pointless theory argument.

The only person who hasn't done much to eliminate one person from their scenarios is VP Baltar, largely because he's following the same "sophisticated scum" reasoning you're putting out.
That's one of the very first things I noted when I started talking about my own suspicions Today.

[Vi]

Of the two people locked in Mortal Kombat right now, I'm still leaning toward lynching the troll. A lot of that conversation before DDD showed up seemed intent on wiping away my Town reads (along with everyone else's). I'm still not getting "sophisticated scum" reads on hito, and I still don't like his way of throwing votes down and not mentioning them for entire Days.

I disagree strongly with DDD's argument that the SerialClergyman lynch was inevitable. If it wasn't inevitable, I wouldn't have given up and joined it. Let's look at where everyone stood at the end of D3.
(rows lynching columns)
[mrow]Name[col]Troll[col]VPB[col]hito[col]DDD[col]Vi[col]ABR[col]Sando[col]SC Troll[col]N[col]N[col]Y[col]N[col]N[col]N[col] [col]Y VPB[col] [col]N[col]Y[col] [col]N[col]N[col] [col]Y hito[col]Y[col]Y[col]N[col] [col]N[col]Y[col]N[col]N DDD[col] [col]N[col]Y[col]N[col] [col] [col] [col]N Vi[col]Y[col]Y[col]N[col]N[col]N[col] [col]N[col] ABR[col]N[col]N[col]Y[col]Y[col]N[col]N[col]N[col]Y Sando[col]N[col]N[col]N[col]N[col]N[col]N[col]N[col]Y SC[col] [col]Y[col]N[col] [col] [col] [col] [col]N
You can see that VP Baltar and hito were already shut out by people who

openly refused

to vote those ways. With my vote, the SerialClergyman wagon was plausible, barely. No other wagon was possible... except possibly Troll, ironically.

There's no particular reason for Troll NOT to cast a vote right now. As I said on D2, which idiot Townie is going to quickhammer (and stop discussion)?

Troll, is there any particular "silver bullet" about DDD that you find most incriminating?

And - why do there only seem to be two people in this topic - again? I'd like for the two absentees to come have their own say about what's going on.~

[Vi]

I'm not usually interested in trying to persuade people to make certain lynches until late in the game. I cast my votes for where I think they make sense and then unless that changes I leave them there.

I don't buy this. Finding scum, even if you're correct, is only half of a Townie's job.

Day three I spent my time mostly talking to and about my top suspects.

If you're referring to hito, this is a lie.

I can point out his overall detached play, the lack of cases that he's made in general throughout the game, his late attack at the end of day three yesterday, his convenient change of position on hitogoroshi from reasons that involved no pairs at all for guilt to entirely connection based reasons for innocence and the recent insistence that the only explanation for the night kills is mason hunting

Have you ever played with DDD before?

You didn't answer my previous question to you long those lines. What is it that you like about his play specifically other than the fact that he's been off the mislynches and on the scum lynch?

Really that's it. It's strong on its own.

As you say, there's no real danger of town quick hammering and further, if I'm completely wrong and he really is town somehow then we've lost anyhow as it's just a matter of scum getting coordinate a lynch on me. Why should I want to cast a vote quickly here though? Does it hurt to leave it off in some way? From what you know of my play do you expect me to cast a vote quickly in this situation?

Well, as you can probably see by now nobody has sw00ped in for the quickhammer, so we already know that one of you and DDD are scum. Unless you're suggesting that we should lynch someone else today, there's no reason for your vote to not be locked on at this point. Sure, it doesn't hurt to not vote, but it's redundant.

---

@Vi - you know, as I'm reading your posts, one of the things that is starting to bother me a touch is how much you seem to be trying to bully people toward hurried conclusions. I mean, even when you're like "deadline is only six days away"...well so what? To me, that's sufficient time to reach a reasonable conclusion considering most everyone is moving toward something (sans DDD it seems, though apparently he turns that around in the next page). My question for you is why are you in such a hurry? Why haven't you voted when you've already declared hito and DDD to be obv town? Seems to me like you have this game wrapped up in a neat little package and I don't understand your hesitation considering how confident you claim to be.

Sure, six (now four) days is enough to reach a conclusion, but consider that we got deadlined in the first place (after all the griping ABR did on Days 1 and 3). This game WILL stall to deadline unless ham gets in gear.

As for why I haven't voted, I've said it twice now. If I were completely confident, I would have voted. (I could have added "hint, hint" but that would have been obvious.)
The reasons why I haven't voted are
1) I overstated my confidence for purposes of discussion, and
2) I wanted to see reactions to my reads.
To that end, Troll has underwhelmed me. You've not done bad. I really don't know what to do with DDD. hito likes making abstract scenarios, but I'm not picking up a lot of red flags tbh.

The excuse making for DDD's play flabbergasts me. Vi, how much experience do you have with DDD? Would you say he's an adaptive player?

*Appenine Mafia (scum) - lurked, wagon-hopped, everyone wanted to lynch him and nobody ever did
*Mafia of Order (Town power role) - played more or less like a Townier version of his Appenine game IIRC; got lynched for some really terrible reason
*Murder in Zachtown (Town Mason, replaced in D3) - not really effective, but acted as voice of reason
I'm not sure what you mean by "adaptive". I think he's good at what he does, and getting to the point of what you're asking I don't deny that his behavior COULD be planned.

@Vi - is your wiki up to date with all of the games you are currently playing in? I'm assuming it is, but I just wanted to check something.

Yep yep~

---

If someone has a bit of time, I'd really appreciate a quick little reference of the times any of the living players voted for each other. I know that's a lot to ask for but it's also a lot to do and if anyone has a framework or anything in their notes I would be a happy hito.

USE MY VOTE COUNT ANALYSIS YOU SCRUB

VPB -> Vi (36) - Day 1
Vi -> PCE (41)
Vi -> PCE (297)
Vi -> DDD (312)
PCE -> DDD (373)
--Day 2
Troll -> hito (917) - Day 3
VPB -> hito (950)
Vi -> VPB (1077)
DDD -> hito (1093)
--Day 4
DDD -> Troll (1276) - Day 5

Hey hito, realistically speaking there are only two people getting lynched Today. Now that that's out there, do you think you would do better going for individual reads?

[Vi]

I disagree strongly with DDD's argument that the SerialClergyman lynch was inevitable. If it wasn't inevitable, I wouldn't have given up and joined it. Let's look at where everyone stood at the end of D3.

And you're telling me that if Zorblag had hunkered down and dug in his heels you don't think he could've gotten either you or Sando to make the opposite move he did? It's not like we were sitting under deadline where a move had to be made. Other people were willing to stick to their principles, why not Zorblag?

You said it yourself - Sando

was

willing to stick to his principles.
Sando plainly came out and said he was "committed" to the SC lynch. There's a reason I put down that Sando wasn't interested in lynching anyone else in the chart on the previous page.

--

I'm reading through Troll's post 1300 and finding that I don't have the ammunition that I thought I did. I still maintain that Troll didn't say much about hito being scummy D3, and I'm still really bothered by how he says that he votes and doesn't bother trying to convince others he's right; that doesn't seem like a plausible Town mindset. With that said, I've looked through my cache of vote spreadsheets from games past and I have to admit I have been cruelly betrayed by statistical reality - there are many more scum who avoided every lynch than Town in the games I've kept track of (5:1 scum:Town IIRC).

I'll look at DDD in the morning.

[Vi]

Vi, I really want to hear your thoughts on DDD at this point. You said you were going to look back and I want to hear it before I vote either Troll or DDD. I'll be around for deadline at least until 2 or so.

I'm here and reading. Birthday stuff kept me away a bit last night.

ftr, deadline is at the end of Saturday night, not tonight. (1221)

[Vi]

I'm have to leave now, but here are my preliminary thoughts.

Looking at my own reasons for pushing Troll as scum is like feeling a splattered egg slide down my face. There are a few things I will hold to as definitely scummy - his insufficient reasons for voting xRx D2 and his insistence on only hito/SC and not doing much else productive D3. I still think I need to look at him one more time, but I will have to do that when I get back.

DDD's reasons walls of text - which I spent most of my time on - are poke-hole-throughable. I can either understand how Town could have done most of the things in his wall, or DDD is just as guilty of what he's accusing Troll of (if not more so). See: DDD insisting he had nothing to do with anything that could make him look bad when that's simply not the case, Troll vs. PCE, "digging in heels" when everyone he lists except possibly ME were "digging in" on Town according to his viewpoint and therefore should not be commended, Troll not attempting to convince his strongest scum read that he shouldn't bother switching his vote, and the scum gameplay argument.

So if I had to pick the better debater it would go to Troll, but this isn't a debate contest. What's left to do is make a decision about who's scum (i.e. motivation, sincerity). I have two long car rides before I come back to consider it. It should only be a few hours before I get back.

---

Questions, etc. to be answered.

Troll: You know your Tofu Mafia meta better than I do. Please respond with an example or two to--

However, one thing I did note in that game is that Zorblag did have a firm lynching preference that he fought for. There was none of this, “well I’ve got three top lynch candidates” or “I’ll accept either a Hito or SC lynch” that we've seen in this game.

DDD: Which "other players" was Troll interested in D1?

DDD: The very first thing I noticed about the game you linked was that you were much more active in that game than this one. What changed?
If you were as active in this game as you were in that game, then you would have license to say something like

yes it’s my fault that I was right on D1 and then on D2 and tried to hand you a scum lynch, but you ignored me on D1 and dicked around on D2.

Here you were a nonentity.

DDD: After the restarted game went on for a week, the only thing you had to "run with" was a thinly veiled OMGUS to Amished lurker-prodding you. Seriously?

[Vi]

@hito 1328: "I think with what's happened I can't see VP NOT voting for DDD today."
Apparently, VP Baltar thinks otherwise based on 1324.

Everything else: I don't entirely agree with your future projection because your NK is not guaranteed (see what Troll alluded to earlier, etc.).
As to VPB/DDD, I don't think VP Baltar fits with any plan to "convince" anyone of anything Today. If the play today is any indication, I don't think scum entered today with any sort of plan like that (which fits my impression of LyLo scum waiting around for Town to fight each other before hopping on the resulting wagon).

--

1) Rec and PCE, though there were between four more people that he deemed good to acceptable lynches as well.

I would rather Troll respond to this, although he kind of already has.

2) Great, your activity obsession continues. I already noted to VPB how I've attempted to shift my meta to a significant degree. Anyways, the relevant things that were supposed to be pulled from that game were sucess, playstyle, tone, and even similar arguments, not activity level.

Wait, so
*you're trying to shift your meta
*you want us to compare your performance here to a previous game (from mid-2009, pre-Appenine)
How does that work?

Ignoring that, there are still dissimilarities (in what you want me to see). In particular, you were all kinds of ready to vote kirroha and explain why to whoever asked. In this game, your vote on xRx was followed by "isn't it obvious what the reasons are? look at the wagon". Understandably the xRx wagon was not nearly as contested as kirroha's, but here you deliberately offer literally nothing except that you're "running with" Amished's tell from D1.

3) There were two things going on at that point, a bad wagon on charlatan and me drawing luker pressure. Now I didn't have a good enough read on charlatan to want to actually defend him, but I had no interest in facilitating the wagon either. That left the other key issue at that point in the game being lurker pressure on me; from my perspective that was obviously bogus and attacking that and those who were pushing it was by far the best option.

That has to be a false dilemma.

Nothing

else happened within the first week?

---

Troll, who are your picks for scum?
VP Baltar, why are you everywhere else but here?

[Vi]

Is there a specific opinion you'd like to hear from me atm, or is this you generally trying to posture as the posting police?

weeeEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo

Do you need to hear more from me?

[Vi]

I'd like to actually know what your stance on DDD is today if you've arrived at some sort of conclusion. I didn't want to preempt you if you're still doing the investigation thing, but I basically want to know if he's still unlynchable to you today or if you've had a change of heart.

He's not unlynchable.
I'm still trying to gather a little information, but I'm worried that I'm going to run out of time... I think I'm almost done though.

Does this help you at all?

[Vi]

1337posting for the most advanced post number.

[Vi]

Isn't hito supposed to be here with a conclusion sometime like now?

[Vi]

It was mostly his debate with Troll that made this turn for you? If DDD flipped scum, who do you think is his most likely buddy?

More like I did the research and realized that the tell I was using to cement my DDD-Town read wasn't grounded in the data I have. With that out of the way I started looking at DDD's posts and found a lot to disagree with.

DDD's scumpartner (or anyone's scumpartner) is an interesting question with an interesting history. Remember what I said about how finding a single Townie Today can shift the odds in Town's favor? Consider the chance that hito is scum. Now consider the chance that Troll and DDD are bussing each other. Either one of those two is the case, or you're scum. Right now I'm betting on the latter, but that's what the previously mentioned last bit of investigation is (was, now) about.

(Also, I'm going to venture a guess at Vi had some caffiene recently)

What's left of the ice cream cake is still in the refrigerator.~

That and my PPD is slipping

Think on reasons why I would want to avoid telling anyone who I want to vote and you'll probably see where I'm coming from (and maybe even the scumteam I'm gonna call out).

So Bad at Mafia.

Considering IIRC you and Troll are the last ones to go to sleep by time zones, don't delay.

[Vi]

Oh right.
What did you get out of DDD's game?

[Vi]

Vote to Hammer: Debonair Danny DiPietro

[Vi]

Well, nerts. Vi, who's your partner? hito?

Quickhammering aside, remember that it's poor form to give away the ending before the mod does.

[Vi]

You know I had you pegged and no way to convince anyone else that you were scum. Do you realize what I'm getting at?

Come out and say it. This game was compromised. You knew it, I knew it, DDD somehow

didn't

know it; and unfortunately due to the circumstances retribution could not be swift in coming.

Alternatively, you knew beyond a doubt that I was scum in LyLo, could have mislynched me very easily, and I still managed to survive.
I'm not bragging, but I'm reasonably bitter that it came to that.

[Vi]

Had you done more than you did to reference the ongoing game, I would definitely have pulled some strings and gotten the game canceled with a draw.
I usually don't take the whole "getting lynched" thing too well.

Also, I really hope I don't have to change my catchphrase from "Never Scum" to "Never Scum Except In Invitational Games". I mean seriously what.

---

Some other notes while we're waiting...

Now that you know the alignments of both parties involved, please don't ever start the game like this.
Everybody was kind enough to pretend this never happened, but all it did was needlessly annoy me and make the person in question look scummy.

Overall I think this setup favors Town, although this may be me coming from a scum standpoint. The scum -have- to kill Masons to avoid being boxed in by confirmed Townies at LyLo. What this means is that V. Townies who happen to be strong players or very Town-looking can most certainly survive to LyLo and the endgame, and there's not a thing scum can do about it - keeping someone in the game who is very unlikely to be scum is still better than keeping someone in the game who is impossible to be scum. The exception is if you-scum expect to crossvote with someone in 3P LyLo anyway. That's why Town-hunting actually makes this setup EASIER for Town as it goes on. Inversely, it's Town's game to lose by not looking Town enough.
Optimal play for Masons may be to simply coast, rather than leading the Town and making themselves good NKs by standard logic in addition to being required targets. Optimal play for V. Townies is probably to play a fairly quick game - "less chat, more splat" - at least until the Masons are compromised.

With that said, the kills and lynches in this game were pretty much all deserved when they came. charlatan was trying to be edgy and flopped spectacularly. xRx needs no mention. SerialClergyman gave up and

asked

to be lynched, and really was the only option available. DDD had a lot of positive things going for him, but drew undue suspicion onto himself by making it sound like it was all planned (even if it was, it sounded like scum crafting an alibi).
We thought Amished was a Mason for sure, and he was definitely one of the most pro-Town people D1. We were able to deduce the Masons with reasonable accuracy on N2 and definitely called them on N3; I'm not sure if I want to talk about how we found them out.

I feel like I'm lecturing and the game's not technically over besides, so I think that's all. Hopefully the mod will show up at his deadline.

[Vi]

Vi, I know you wanted me to be a bit more proactive the start of the final day. My schedule worked against that a bit but I also feel that I work just a bit better under some pressure (as either alignment really) so I wanted to let that build some while I continued to get the lay of the land. I apologize if that made the last day more nerve wracking than it needed to be for you.

You did everything I needed you to - not draw attention to yourself for four Days and go along with my last gambit D5.

I don't think a case of mine has ever been rebutted so completely as yours D5. You're like a cult leader - if you're not speaking directly to someone, your posts are completely indecipherable; but if you ARE, it becomes apparent just how adept you are. Truthfully, in Tofu Mafia I didn't read any of your posts until D4 (the benefits of being scum against you-Town~); and it was difficult for me to get into them before I had to in this game - and not necessarily productive considering I don't think many of the Townies read your posts in this game. So when you say that you don't worry about convincing people of your reads, I can certainly believe you~

Reck, I don't think your lynch had anything to do with your predecessor. In fact, I would say it had absolutely nothing to do with it.

This is actually true. I was surprised at how quickly Scien was forgotten, although that's from the perspective of someone who was glaring at him through the Internet from his very first post.

all of the scum roles you've been getting lately

? I'm pretty sure I wasn't scum in tubby's game... In fact that thing H_H said a few posts ago might have all been a giant typo.

and I'm dreading that avatar.

I got my heart set on you, and I'm ready to wait...

[Vi]

The irony of this avatar was too much to resist.

Hey hito, when I said "So bad at Mafia", I was actually referring to the BaM group.
Both of your gambits ITT were Awesome enough that I asked SpyreX if you could be in, and he said "Hells yes". In other words, it was a compliment.

---

Things really haven't gone well for you recently, have they, SC? I started to feel kind of bad when I saw you were getting chainlynched here and in Reverberation.
Your D3 wasn't very much like your D1 play. On D1 I thought you would be one of the model Townies...

[Vi]

Sadly, I think the village needs a few idiots to operate smoothly. Sometimes it's just easier to get a read on someone with a lower level of playing.

It is, it really is.

There's a point where you have to stop talking and just vote for someone you're most sure is scum; you really can't have ALL the facts at any given time. That's easier when you can read the people you're playing with...

[Vi]

Besides, I've never seen Vi play anything but scum so that's the way you should really be looking.

You and Huntress are the only two people who can say that. I think this is the first time VPB has seen me as scum?

I have to admit, ABR is the real thing - everything people say about him. While he was right more or less as often as anyone else in this game, he was someone I

did not

want to start paying attention to me.

[Vi]

You're referring to causation analysis; reading more what people do versus what specifically they say. That's the sort of thing that made me call hito Town in this game, for instance.

It doesn't work as well on people who play more emotionally than logically, though. (i.e. xRx)

[Vi]

I also should’ve figured Vi was actually Zorblag’s partner after she ignored the points referencing Apennine.

I did that. For quite a while. I got talked out of it rather forcefully.

[Vi]

I also should’ve figured Vi was actually Zorblag’s partner after she ignored the points referencing Apennine.

I did that. For quite a while. I got talked out of it rather forcefully.

Eh?

Reread my conclusionspost from D5.

[Vi]

I went along knowing if he didn't get NK'd he was scum.

masons

Also, I'm somewhat disturbed that you claim to have been holding back ITT. When I saw your reason for pushing the PCE wagon against charlatan's (with the benefit of knowing you weren't outrightly lying), I was like "What? This is an entirely different league.".

The mod could have been a bit more active. I kind of have to agree with ABR about the deadlines, but I'm not up in arms over it.

[Vi]

Yeah...in the other F&Es, I was also a mason, and I took down 2 scum before kicking the bucket. So in this game, I thought, "Hey I'm just going to do the opposite of what I did in the other games to test if I was playing it right before". Epic fail.

I was trying to keep the mason team together as my first priority instead of scumhunting.

How did you guys decide to NK Ojanen?

The core Mason-tell was that none of the Masons voted for each other. Similarly (and more generally since the previous tell seemed to be more for just this game), wagons on Masons failed to gain any traction. That was how we pegged the entire team easily by N3, and that's why I suggested earlier that this setup should be played quickly so that there's less time for scum to PoE who

can't

be Masons based on the vote pattern.

Even if Ojanen wasn't a Mason, she was a completely neutral kill that didn't change the game state, and that served our purposes nicely, what with the parade of suspects waiting for D3.

[Vi]

Mason QT was extremely fail. Ojanen and Sando were gone most of the time. I'm shocked at how much the scum were plotting against us.

So am I. Troll was easily the best scumpartner I've had onsite, with an honorable mention going to magnus_orion for one night's chat before I was killed off in Death Note Mafia.

Also, every hammer except the last one was placed when I was asleep or otherwise AFK. I missed the pregame talk entirely. When did EST become an uncommon time zone?

Never say "Lynch me before you lynch Serialclergyman". That's not remotely pro-town, and you can never predict how people's opinion change. Just because you're town doesn't mean he isn't scum, even if you think you know he isn't, it won't be the way other people see it.

It may not be a good Town move, but that sort of thing isn't scum-motivated.
Of course, the other people have to be able to notice that.

[Vi]

It's not town-motivated either. That's beside the point, which is that it isn't a pro-town move, as in, it is against the interest of the town to do so.

Why would scum say "lynch me first" unless they believed the other person was Town (and were not forced to say that)?