Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]

[EmpTyger]

Grey:

Also I really smell a mass lovers claim coming on at some point.

That doesn't sound like

"I suggest a mass claim so we know who we're lynching"

.
That sounds like someone who hopes it won't happen, but figures it will, so is going to get early credit while doing little to nothing to actually have one happen. 

Vote: GreyICE

Here's how you get a mass lover claim:
I'm paired with Thingy.

Also, the only one it clears is silavor.  The only way it clears Reckoner or PO is if you believe that antitowns wouldn't lie when it's advantageous for them to do so.

[EmpTyger]

It clears silavor because antitowns don't clarify matters to advocate a protown course. They might if it hurts the town. They might if it saves their own neck. But silavor could have easily stayed quiet then and let Reckoner's (genuine or deliberate) error hold. Instead he called Reckoner out. I don't see an antitown doing that.

Reckoner is not cleared because there's not enough evidence to determine whether (a) he was genuinely misinformed or (b) he found a plausible way to advocate an unhelpful course of action.


Grey:
Right, that's the point. Your words don't match your actions. 

[EmpTyger]

silavor:

Grey:
Right, that's the point. Your words don't match your actions.

How so?

Let’s say you’re town and you genuinely wanted a massclaim at the start of D1. How would you go about doing it? Maybe you’d list the arguments for. Maybe you’d lead by example. Maybe something else.

But I don’t think you’d say it should happen “at some point” and then do nothing to encourage it, instead just attacking Reckoner. To me, that fits someone who is worried a massclaim is going to happen but doesn’t want it to. It’s like saying “I should vote X” but then finding something else to do or someone else to vote instead.

(I realize that GreyIce has been more recently gungho, but that was after I called him out.)


Antihero:
A guilty silavor could have sit back and let the confusion develop. He may or may not have stuck his neck out to further any misunderstanding. But he didn’t do either of those things. He immediately clarified it to a protown course. Which I don’t see an antitown player doing. (In fact, no one has disputed that it was a protown move; the only argument seems to be how conclusively protown it is.)

The context for GreyIce is different, some players were using it to attack him. He gains regardless of his alignment. Sitting back and doing nothing, or furthering the confusion are most likely to increase pressure on him. So in his case, it’s inclusive, because his motivation is the same regardless of his alignment.

Out of curiosity, what do you think about how GreyIce “dished out a townread” on Reckoner and PO?


Umbrage

UNVOTE: Reck
VOTE: EmpTyger

I don't like how he suddenly started claiming, with his lover following up on it. That combined with how he attacked GreyICE for indirectly supporting a massclaim and his quick townread on silavor makes me think something fishy is going on.

If I support a mass lover claim…
Why wouldn’t I suddenly start claiming?
Why wouldn’t my lover follow up on it?
Why wouldn’t I attack someone who got on record as pro massclaim but then wasn’t follow through on it?

That all seems very consistent to me. Where are you seeing a problem? (Unless you’re going to argue that supporting the massclaim was suspicious?)


implosion:
Where did Umbrage lie?

[EmpTyger]

Espeonage:
I actually do agree with you about Thingy being distracting. However, I'd already had words with him about before you posted. I do not expect it to be an issue in the future.


Haylen:
Okay, I'll bite. What's a "neutral read"?
May as well tell me about the strawman too, but not really feeling like apologizing for enthusiasm.


Umbrage:

@ Emp: I just think it's weird how you said that GreyICE was scummy for bringing up the massclaim, then you basically say "this is the way to do it". As I see it, there's nothing wrong about being cautious, I've had many an idea that seemed good when I thought of it, but other people disagreed.

Uh, I explicitly said there were multiple ways to do a massclaim. And I do agree that cautious exploration could have been one such way.
But I don't read what GreyIce was going as exploring a massclaim. Is that your interpretation of what he was doing?
(Baby Spice put it better:

"Felt like someone testing the waters to know which way to jump, and to me that indicates a scum attitude."

)


implosion:
Don't get it?


GreyIce:
Don't want the other part to be lost. Why do you think that mafia wouldn't pretend to be unaware of the mafia role PM? (or werewolves of the werewolf PM?) You handwaved that away as "because it's stupid". But it seems to me much more likely than mafia wanting to seem very acquainted with that PM.

[EmpTyger]

Kise:
How do you know that Reckoner read the role in signups? Because if so, that merits a lot more than FoSs, and a lot sooner than in-a-week.


Espeonage:
Player A: We should not do [thing that helps town]
Player B: No, we should do [thing that helps town]
Player C: I'm not going to do [thing that helps town]
You: Obviously we should do [thing that helps town]. vote B for discussing an irrelevant issue.

I mean, I realize I have at least 2 biases here, but your rationale for going after Thingy doesn't match what actually has happened.


GreyIce:

Because I don't frequently see people do the play where they pretend to be ignorant of the game setup. I especially don't see them doing it the way Reck did - taking, by assumption, something to be true that is not true. The Werewolves/Mafia know there's no night kill, a 4 player hive mind isn't going to miss that one. Reck proceeded under the direct assumption that it didn't exist, with not the least bit of contrivance in his posting to indicate any self-awareness that his assumption was utterly false.
That says town to me.

You're saying that mafia/werewolf couldn't possibly do something which simultaneously leads the town in the wrong direction *and* makes it look like they're unfamiliar with the mafia/werewolf role PM?
Because the antitown's number one priority of the mafia/werewolf is tricking the town into thinking they have received a protown role PM. That's not a contrivance, it's what they're already trying to do.
Morevoer, you seem remarkably unconcerned that Kise seems to have direct evidence against your little theory.


vezok:
Is it because you think I'm guilty or because you think Reckoner is town? (or both?)

[EmpTyger]

GreyIce:
I think it's neither "unlikely" nor "impossible". Especially after what Kise just said. Which is why I wonder why you keep insisting that it is.
(And way to hyperbolicly go from "Reckoner" -> "everyone")

[EmpTyger]

Aside from whatever evidence Kise has, just realized that PO definitely knew this was a nightless game. Still not liking GreyICE, but he can wait in favor of the better bandwagon.

Unvote: GreyICE, vote: Espeonage

GreyIce:

I originally declined, as I didn't really want to play in a large game. But nightless + daytalk actually sounds like a REALLY nice break and change.

And methinks Reck's right. Less info mafia has about who will die if they shoot someone, the better. Would you rather have them aim for who they think the most dangerous singular player is, and maybe shoot the crappier team, or for who they think the most dangerous team-as-a-whole is?

Tell me again about my "awful reading comprehension".

[EmpTyger]

Antihero:

And it's not even like it was some move to swoop in and save the day (there was 0% chance that the lover claim wasn't going to happen).

Oh? If there was a 0% chance of it not happening...

About the whole claim thing: I think it's pretty pointless. As the game progresses, it should become obvious who's paired with whom; a mass claim really doesn't do anything for anybody right now. Also, how is silavor's vote anymore related to the issues at hand than mine?

...Then why were you still arguing against it at that point?


Umbrage:

EmpTyger's last post makes me like my vote on him.

a) I don't like the phrasing of "the better bandwagon". It really screams of scum trying to switch to the wagon with the most potential.

b) From my point of view (and I think someone else already said it) scum are the most likely to realize it's a nightless game.

c) So wait, you're voting him because he forgot it was a nightless game?

ScumTyger is feeding you crap to excuse his switch to the most popular wagon.

a) How should a protown phrase their bandwagon switch? If I have 2 suspects, and there are more than 2 antitowns left, and one of them has twice as many votes as the other... then yeah I'm going to switch, and yeah I'm going to say why. (Or is your point that a townsperson wouldn't switch? Because that makes even less sense.)

b) Right. Which is why mafia pretend they have town PMs. So if they have an opportunity to seem ignorant of that fact, they'd take it. Which is why I was saying that nothing can be concluded about Reckoner's supposed ignorance: yes he could have been genuinely mistaken, but he could also have been feigning ignorance. (GreyIce was arguing that it had to be the latter.) And I was saying the same about PO, at least initially...

c) No, I think he was lying about forgetting. PO said that he only signed up because this was a nightless daytalking game. I don't believe he could have forgotten it 2 days later. And, I mean, even GreyIce said his I-forgot-the-game-was-nightless was "contrived".


Llama:

Also some of the logic against him is good.

Which of the logic is? And, for that matter, which of the logic isn't?


Kise:
Think you need to explain that comment about Reckoner further.


PO:
I have never seen a mafia member act so quickly to defuse and clarify. (And that's even not taking into account the daytalking.) Have you?
(And I read GreyIce's calling Espeonage "helpful" as sarcasm. Hence the quotes.)

[EmpTyger]

Kise/Reckoner/Nero/implosion:

Unvote: Purple Orange

. 2 of you are going to die today. Leave us with something good.


Reckoner:
(…And let me say right now that what you’ve been posting is in no way “good”.)
Haylen, silavor, and Kise have done 3 very different things. Why have you the same over-the-top reaction to all 3?


Kise:
I’m having a really impossible time finding an innocent explanation for backpedalling in [282].


Nero Cain:
Why didn’t you vote Kise, considering?


Espeonage:

I'm not going to stick my head in the whole reck-kise-silavor thing other than to say that I most agree with recks posting (maybe not the tone) but I'm not 100% sold on either of them being scum. Kise could easily be mistaken and silavor seems to just be out of his depth.

Explain how you thought Kise “could easily be mistaken” given what he’d posted.
More importantly, why did you choose to avoid the matter if you weren’t sure about it.


Llama:
Don’t disagree with any of that, but why are you ignoring the Kise/Reckoner matter?


Antihero:
Re Thingy, I only told him to ask me any “newbie” questions in private, so as not to distract from the game. Last I heard from him, he said he was going to read up on players’ private games. I’ve tried to explain was a bad idea, at first appealing to reason, then more bluntly telling him that he’s just going to burn himself out. Honestly, I think Thingy’s in over his head. I’d like for him to contribute- in particular I want to hear why he disagreed with me about GreyIce.

[EmpTyger]

Thingy and I need to chat about our suspect lists...


Reckoner:
Even if I temporarily accept that “Haylen is stupid”, that “Kise blatantly lied”, and that “silavor was defending stupidity”: your reaction is still over-the-top.

Player A does thing X and it “sets you off”? Okay, I might see how that could happen.
Player A does thing X and it “sets you off” and Player B does thing Y and it “sets you off” and Player C does thing Z and it “sets you off”? Then I’m considering whether the problem isn’t with A, B, C, but with *you*. Especially when there’s nothing really out of the ordinary with Y and Z which should cause such an extreme reaction.

Let me put it this way: the mod himself has told you that your reactions are inappropriate. That ought to be a big clue.


dramonic:
I don’t think Reckoner is being voted because players think him “abrasive town”. I think it’s for being “abrasive mafia” or “abrasive werewolf”.


silavor:
Umbrage is voting Reckoner because someone is lying, and for whatever reason he has chosen to believe Kise.


Haylen/Tragedy:
Reckoner said that he allegedly didn’t know what the setup was.
Kise said that he and Reckoner allegedly discussed the setup pregame on AIM.
Reckoner denied doing so.
Kise was certain.
Reckoner posted logs allegedly showing that that didn’t happened.
Kise recanted to one of {dramonic, Nero, Reckoner} discussed the setup pregame on AIM.
{dramonic, Nero, Reckoner} have each denied doing so.

So, someone’s lying.


GreyIce:
Just because q21 reaches a conclusion doesn’t mean that Umbrage is going to agree with it. (And I should know, given Thingy and my own differing feelings about you.)

Are you saying that you and Antihero agree with every single thing the other of you says?

[EmpTyger]

GreyIce:

No, of course not. A total and complete 180 from each other without even ACKNOWLEDGING each other's position? That feels less like 'a disagreement' and more like 'playing both sides' to me.

Huh? Here's the post in question:

Lover Claim: Umbrage

... and on that note.

Oh. My. God. You. SUCK!

Bitchslap Vote implosion

That said, I disagree with my lovers attack on Emptypger and happen to agree that GreyICE's tentative, wishy-washy-ness around the massclaim issue on page one was scummy, therefore.

Vote GreyICE

<--- That one's real.

[EmpTyger]

Town:
Mafia and werewolves will try to demoralize us, make us not think things through, and prevent us from reaching consensus.
Don’t let them.

My top 4 suspect pairs are
Nero Cain/xRECKONERx
Antihero/GreyICE
DarlaBlueEyes/Llamarble
Espeonage/PurpleOrange

This differs significantly with my partner. I’m trying to resolve it privately with Thingy, because there’s no point both to us working at cross-purposes in-thread.

But I do not like the q21/Umbrage wagon.
Nor do I like the Baby Spice/Kcdaspot


Antihero:

Reckoner said that he allegedly didn’t know what the setup was.
Kise said that he and Reckoner allegedly discussed the setup pregame on AIM.
Reckoner denied doing so.
Kise was certain.
Reckoner posted logs allegedly showing that that didn’t happened.
Kise recanted to one of {dramonic, Nero, Reckoner} discussed the setup pregame on AIM.
{dramonic, Nero, Reckoner} have each denied doing so.

So, someone’s lying.

Great summary. Doesn't take into account that LAL sucks.

Fine. You present an alternate explanation that explains what they’ve said and done, that involves them all being innocent.
And if you’re going to argue, “Human memory = far from perfect”, then you need to account for the events of the thread, in particular the level of certainty Kise and Reckoner show.


Reckoner:
Also, why would an innocent Kise lie about that conversation? Given what he’s said, how could Kise be “misinformed” or “mistaken”?
He hasn’t ever said he didn’t have a conversation. All he did was (in response to evidence that seemed ironclad at the time but we’ve since learned could have been very easily doctored) maintain that he definitely had a conversation, and that it had to be with one of {dramonic, Nero, Reckoner}.

(And for someone who is so allegedly easily “set off”, you seem awfully willing to trot out the “it’s my playstyle, live with it” when it’s you. And don’t try to tell me that the mod’s okay with you when I see the modedits throughout your posts. And the mod’s not the only one.)

Also, why specifically do you read dramonic as innocent?


Darla:

Reck's posts are the most entertaining thing I've seen all week. I don't like Kise's could-be lie though. LaL has rarely failed in my experience and unless Kise can come up with a good reason for such a lie my vote may end up right there.

I realize I am useless but getting over the flu and catching up in several games slows a girl down. Have a little sympathy, yeah? I'll pick it up here soon

lol @ all of this

Kise's reaction and lack of explanation for the implied lying doesn't sit well with me. LaL. Always.

vote: Kise

That being said all of this arguing over a freaking chatlog is just full of WIFOM and not helping town one bit. I wouldn't be surprised if all of you perpetuating it were scum.

What changed between these posts? Moreover, how would you characterize what you were doing?

because your over-reaction to EVERYTHING is so pro-town.

Are Reckoner’s overreactions protown, to you?


GreyIce:

For your information, I didn't want to get involved because it was a factual debate. There is literally no point in debating facts - either they are true, or they are not. What am I going to do, jump in and go "oh, well, my completely uninformed opinion is that the

facts

Reck is presenting are true, and the

facts

Kise presented are indeed false?"

It appears, general consensus, that what Kise presented as fact was false. I mean seriously, what's the point of debating it at that time? Add a voice that knows nothing about those chats and logs to the situation? Now that I know that Kise presented to the town information that was clearly factually incorrect, I can decide how to proceed with that knowledge. But determining whether that information was factually correct? I added nothing whether I posted anything or not.

If your take on the situation (which I disagree with, but ignoring that for a second) is that

“what Kise presented as fact was false”

, and you believe that that’s the general consensus… then why haven’t you done anything with that?

But that’s not an accurate presentation of the “facts”. The “facts” include what q21 just showed: that Reckoner could have very, very easily edited his alleged “proof”.

GreyIce:

No, of course not. A total and complete 180 from each other without even ACKNOWLEDGING each other's position? That feels less like 'a disagreement' and more like 'playing both sides' to me.

Huh? Here's the post in question:

Lover Claim: Umbrage

... and on that note.

Oh. My. God. You. SUCK!

Bitchslap Vote implosion

That said, I disagree with my lovers attack on Emptypger and happen to agree that GreyICE's tentative, wishy-washy-ness around the massclaim issue on page one was scummy, therefore.

Vote GreyICE

<--- That one's real.

And then this, don't forget:

@Espy: GreyICE is scum. He is just trying to make a case on someone who knows is easy to be lynched. He didn't read any posts in this thread but he is accusing you of that. Hypocritical scum.

So you think GreyICE is scum... but you're blindly sheeping reck to vote emp who is attacking GreyIce...

Right, you're scum too.

That one is much more fucking terrible, actually.

Um, that doesn’t change that “A total and complete 180 from each other without even ACKNOWLEDGING each other's position” is flat out wrong. And you’re just as wrong about that second post. q21 isn’t attacking vezok because vezok voted me or suspected you. He’s attacking vezok because vezok was taking contradictory positions. There’s no 180, because q21 and Umbrage are talking about 2 different issues.

[EmpTyger]

Baby Spice:
I didn’t think GreyIce suspicious (initially) because he was proclaim. It was because he *said* he was proclaim, but then took anticlaim *actions*.

I did tell Thingy pregame that we’d get information from who supported the claim, as well as who opposed it when they should know better. But that wasn’t instead of supporting the claim- in fact, I said that if the claim failed, we’d have bigger problems because of the implications that had regarding the town.


GreyIce:

BTW, I consider a 'text wall' and a 'long post' fundamentally different. A text wall attempts to stop you from reading it in any way, shape or form. Those sorts of quote/one line, quote/one line definitely succeeds at that.

How would you like me to rebut you, if you say X happens and it’s clearly demonstrable that it didn’t?

(Incidentally, let’s say, purely hypothetically, of course, that some players thought that a certain player’s derogative, profanity-laden abuse was succeeding at stopping them from reading the thread in any way, shape, or form. I’m sure you’d feel the same way, and would say so, right?)


Reckoner:
I really don’t care what you *claim* the mod allegedly told you. I’m going to go by the same things that every single player in this game can plainly see for ourselves:
What the mod put in their ruleset.
What the mod reiterated in that large-fonted post.
The “[edited - Sens]” that the mod had to revise your posts with (and only your posts, almost without exception).

What you’re doing doesn’t help the town:
It doesn’t help the town reach consensus.
It doesn’t help the town think through issues rationally.

As for the Kise/you situation, once again:
You haven’t refuted anything. (It’s been shown how easy your “proof” could have been edited.)
You haven’t shown how Kise could be innocently misinformed. (If he’s misinformed, it means that you, dramonic, or Nero lied.)
You haven’t shown how Kise could be innocent mistaken. (He’s consistently insisted that a conversation happened.)

[EmpTyger]

I really wanted to reach consensus with Thingy, but he's not posted in quicktopic in 3 days, and I don't think I can wait. Something needs to be done. The situation in-thread is just deteriorating.

Look at the big picture.
GreyIce and Reckoner are creating a gamestate where the town's advantages are lost.

Their cases against Baby Spice and Kcda and q21 and Umbrage etc are based on taking a minor thing in someone's recent post, taking it out of context, and warping the logic. They substitute profanity and abuse for logic. Those who point this out get shouted down, and any rebuttals are ignored in place of the next set of wild accusations. And those players who try make sense of it can't, so GreyIce and Reckoner attack them for following the bad cases GreyIce and Reckoner presented in the first place.

Stop listening to them. Start voting them.

. I know a few of you already are, but we need a majority of the town to refuse to enable their cycle.

Vote: GreyIce.

Between the 2 I'd rather Reckoner, but both of them are so consistently undermining the town. Less and less analysis is occurring. More and more players are getting demotivated toward working together.

(I do know this is short on specifics. I'm on iPhone and heading to work, and don't have time for a complete fleshing out. But I don't think the general point can wait for that.)

[EmpTyger]

[Mod: I'm voting for GreyIce as of [510]. Not sure if that was the only mistake in Tragedy's votecount.]

Everyone should copy/paste the loverpairs into their quicktopic, if they haven't already.  

I don't want to lynch Reckoner and GreyIce because they're not fun, or because of some theoretical difference of opinion. I want to lynch them because I think they are mafia or werewolf. 

And Mariyta/Tragedy are not good lynches. They are trying to be logical and trying to make sense of the game and being thwarted by the context of some other players drowning out. That is an asset for the town. The goal is to lynch the players creating confusion. Not the players being confused by something confusing.


Llama:
I read through LI 1105 very quickly, and all I could find was that one of {RossWilliam, Dizzle} had to be lying, and Dizzle was mafia. Which is the opposite of what you're saying. What specifically were you referring to from that game?


Reckoner:
I know, I know, you're not responding to this and pretending not to read it. What do you think of my alignment?

[EmpTyger]

I'd rather do Reckoner or GreyIce, but I'll settle for Llama/Darla, especially since it seems people are figuring out who not to listen to and who not to follow. 

Vote: Llamarble

.

Also, re LI1105:
That's kind of my point. What's the "screwed up his settings" for the situation here? If there's an innocent explanation... then what it? (Kise's was that maybe it was with dramonic or Nero- but that doesn't explain what happened. Reckoner's was to insult whoever tried to look into the matter- and that doesn't explain what happened either.)

[EmpTyger]

How is it protown to drop this without an adequate exlpanation? (And Reckoner's insulting whoever tries to look into the matter still isn't an explanation for what happened.) I'll drop it when Kise or Reckoner or anyone provides me with an explanation for how they could both be innocent. Not before that.


Llama:
Baaaa
Also some of the logic against you is good.


Llama (for real this time):
I'm voting you because I think you're antitown. An opinion that you and Darla didn't seem to have any problem with when I said so earlier, when others weren't receptive to voting you.

Also, what is your theory, then, of what the antitowns are going to be doing?

[EmpTyger]

Those voting GreyIce:
What do you think about Llama?


Those voting Llama:
What do you think about GreyIce?


Llama:

I think the antitowns will be
A. Hunting the other antitowns.
B. Avoiding intractable situations unless they're sure they can get out of them.
C. Not eager to prevent mislynches, especially since if wrong they'll look like buddies.
D. Trying to do things that look unbelievable from scum.

Seems like your A-B-C of guilt describe both you and Darla very well, don’t they.
(And D too for you, if you count “putting the very things you yourself have done in a list of what antitowns would do”.)


GreyIce:

And now you know something that I consider one of the biggest towntells, and is nigh-impossible to fake (PO did something that looked like faking it in nearly her first post, and I've been eyeballing her ever since).

You decided PO was innocent back when you bent over backwards to clear Reckoner the first time, and you haven’t mentioned any “eyeballing” or anything since. The last you had to say on the matter was:

PO is a town read, and again explains some of espy's behavior, so my vote is now being stupid. Will review tonight and find a good spot for it.

Now you are conveniently claiming that you have been eyeballing her the entire time? I don’t believe you innocently decided to be silent about this alleged suspicion for most of D1. Especially when you only trot it out now as part of a yet-another bending over backwards defense of Reckoner.


silavor:

Reck's already given a lot of reasons why, but to summarize, he's spent the entire game criticizing others, then trying to build a case off of an argument that he didn't even read. Then his lover tells him to actually read the game, and he goes back to criticizing others.

(Not sure what you mean by “criticizing others”?) But how isn’t all that stuff town could do? Especially considering how many other players weren’t reading the case against q21.

And as for Reckoner’s “reasons”, you do realize that Reckoner’s reasons yesterday concluded that the antitowns were:
GreyIce (because of a false premise Reckoner was using, inadvertently or deliberately)
Haylen (whose alignment you presumably know to be innocent)
You (whose alignment you presumably know to be innocent)
Thingy (who Reckoner now says he doesn't think has done “anything that struck him as incredibly scummy”)
Kise (who Reckoner now says is town)
q21 (who was innocent)
Kcda

Might want to reconsider whether Reckoner’s “reasons” are what you want to be following.

[EmpTyger]

Llama/GreyIce:
Why don’t either of you have any suspects at the moment?


PO:
Did you read the context of what was happening in-thread between those 2 posts of silavor’s- which silavor even quoted when he said that?

Then, of course, you leap straight off Haylen and on to Kise for what could very well be a total misunderstanding.

OH MY GOD IT'S LIKE DRMYSHOTTYIZSIK GAINED A VOCABULARY BUT RETAINED HIS IQ
Read what I fucking said above about Kise. His entire goddamn case on me is built on this strong idea that he knew, BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, that I

knew

the setup. That's a pretty DAMN STRONG PIECE OF EVIDENCE to be 'misremembering'. It's not even a misunderstanding - WE NEVER SPOKE ABOUT THE GAME PERIOD.

One of you is lying, and unlike you I'm not totally convinced you're the innocent one. Screaming at me isn't going to help.

That’s literally “what happened” between those posts. Reckoner stated that a misunderstanding was impossible.
Now, do you see any similar incompatibility with Reckoner going “Kise must be lying because it can’t possibly be a misunderstanding” -> “It has to be a misunderstanding and anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron etc”?


dramonic:
Reckoner has explained why he has concluded you are town. Why do you say he is town?
Also, which playerslots do you feel I’m ignoring?


Reckoner:

In other news, Silavor is scummy and coasting. At first he was like "yo reck you scummy dood, dont attack ma lovah", then he was like "so why do you guys find reck scummy?" and now he's like "yo reck's awesum, so I'll stop makin content and echo him."

Your thoughts on why would dramonic would say that agreeing with you is a sign of guilt?

[EmpTyger]

Reckoner:
Okay, if you prefer. Why would dramonic say that becoming convinced that you are innocent is a sign of guilt?

[EmpTyger]

Llama:
Yes, I read your posting. And I don't see you having done anything today to get your purported suspects lynched.


Kise:
Read my [678]. Or reread silavor's posts in context. And you'll see what was going on during those "47 minutes".

And if you have a sequence of events that clarifies how everyone involved in this is innocent, I'd love to hear it. Until I hear an alternate explanation, I'm not going to dismiss the explanation I know would explain things: that someone involved is guilty.


Reckoner:

It's not the person's opinion of me that he fucking hates, it's the fact that silavor seemingly flip flopped on me. Though, he never did explicitly state suspicion of me, even though he was attacking me quite hard at the start of the game.

Nope. Because in the exact same post, dramonic was advising that I should be flip-flopping on you:

I'm not a big fan of how Emptyger seems to be heavily focused on Reck/kise and Grey while mostly ignoring the other player slots. His play also comes of as very odd to me, not sure I'd call it scummy though.

Reck and Grey are both town though, so he might want to focus somewhere else.

[EmpTyger]

GreyIce:
Here's what you said at the start of the day.

Okay, I'm inclined to see how this day evolves. Antihero has his theories, and I have mine, and I'd rather see him run with his for a bit. Too many of my theories are directly contradictory, and I don't have a good direction on which are the most likely.

Antihero, not sheeping my vote to you because I'm not sure I agree with you at the moment.

I'm reasonably sure that PO/Llamarble is not town--town. Both seem to show up when there's noise happeneing. With that, kcda becomes less interesting.

Now you're complaining that the day is stagnant and you want to lynch lurkers.
I don't disagree about the stagnancy.

But *you* deliberately refused to propose theories that you had.
And *you* deliberately refused to pressure or vote or doing anything against your suspects.
*You* sat back and lurked and withheld your analysis.
And now you want to lynch Kcda for doing, at worst, the same thing you were doing.

vezok was right. You asked for content but didn't give any. And there *was* some to give

because you yourself said so:

You could have talked about why you felt PO/Llama were not town--town. You haven't.
You could have talked about these theories you had different from Antihero. You haven't.


PO:
hm I want to think about [733], but not for that reason.

[EmpTyger]

My top 4 suspect pairs are:
Antihero/GreyICE
DarlaBlueEyes/Llamarble
Nero Cain/xRECKONERx
Espeonage/Purple Orange
Less certain about #4. Not sure it matters at this point. And I hate secondguessing myself anyhow. Because I'm honestly not sure what I can do here. I'm not seeing any way to count 12 votes onto my suspects.

Incidentally, pairs I feel innocent:
Baby Spice/Kcdaspot
Haylen/silvador
Mariyta/Tragedy
Mist7676/vezokpiraka

[EmpTyger]

Townspeople:
Let's try this. Do the math.

There are 8 antitowns.
There are 14 townspeople.
12 votes are needed for a lynch.

Coasting is not an option. The numbers make it essentially impossible. You will not win unless you try.

The antitowns are ubercoordinated and have greater numbers than typical. They can easily dominate the thread and prevent the town from coordinating, prevent the town from thinking things through. Town cannot sit back and passively win this game. This isn't that kind of setup. This setup requires almost every protown player to actively compete. At least, if they want the the town to win.

So, townspeople, are we *all* going to try to win?

[EmpTyger]

Kise:

@Emptyger: You are basically telling everyone that lurking is antitown, which everyone already knows. But then the players you are expressing suspicion of are the ones who are being active (my pair excepted). And where are you hiding Thingyman? Him not posting makes it harder to read you both.

Thingyman redeemed himself with the whole werewolf comment.... Emp done goofed, looks like. I'm still seeing him as scum. Adding contradicting stances to doesn't hurt to affirm to me my beliefs.

Your alleged contradiction is because you're reading *Llama* instead of what I actually said. Which was:

The antitowns are ubercoordinated and have greater numbers than typical. They can easily dominate the thread and prevent the town from coordinating, prevent the town from thinking things through. Town cannot sit back and passively win this game. This isn't that kind of setup. This setup requires almost every protown player to actively compete. At least, if they want the the town to win.

The goal is to distinguish between who is promoting that kind of play, and who is reacting to it. The *last* thing I think we should do is lynch based on a single criteria, like lurking. That's Llama's interpretation.


Antitowns are sowing confusion. Protowns are being confused by it.
Lurking could indicate either. Which is why protowns need to actively think about what's going on and analyze the full context. Instead of the knee-jerk, thoughtless, jump-on-whatever-the-last-thing-said play which the antitowns are promoting.


PO:
...which is why I'm reading Baby Spice/Kdca and Mariyta/Tragedy. (And why I'm hesitating so much over you.) They've yesterday or today shown signs of thinking about context instead of maintaining an antitown status quo.

@ Emp and silavor - I was wrong; there's a decently plausible way for Reck (and Nero) to be telling the truth about the IM stuff, and still be scum.

Not sure what you mean here? I mean, sure, but I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.
I think there are people arguing that whether they told the truth has no relevance.
And there are people (well, me) arguing that someone is lying.


silavor:
The short version is, the antitowns are not going to go out of their way to turn this game around. They won't fight to lynch an antitown when they can just go after an easier lynch of either an innocent or the other guilty faction.


vezok:
Dearie, this is a team game. If there aren't enough townspeople committed to trying to play better than the antitowns, it doesn't matter how I play.

[EmpTyger]

werewolf:
What do you think about Reckoner?
Who do you think is guilty?


PO:
Why are Grey/Antihero on your "don't want to lynch today" list?

Also, again:

@ Emp and silavor - I was wrong; there's a decently plausible way for Reck (and Nero) to be telling the truth about the IM stuff, and still be scum.

Not sure what you mean here? I mean, sure, but I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.
I think there are people arguing that whether they told the truth has no relevance.
And there are people (well, me) arguing that someone is lying.

[EmpTyger]

PO:
But that's not what Grey's been doing today. He's been doing the opposite. See my [742].


Mariyta:
A) There is no deadline. A deadline requires a consequence if it hits. There is no consequence in this setup. It's as if the mod automatically gives us a 3 week extension.
B) Repeated no-lynch stalls benefit whoever gets the most benefit from a draw. Which isn't always going to be antitowns.


Kise:
...Isn't that exactly what I've been saying?

The goal is to distinguish between who is promoting that kind of play, and who is reacting to it. The *last* thing I think we should do is lynch based on a single criteria, like lurking. That's Llama's interpretation.

Antitowns are sowing confusion. Protowns are being confused by it.
Lurking could indicate either. Which is why protowns need to actively think about what's going on and analyze the full context. Instead of the knee-jerk, thoughtless, jump-on-whatever-the-last-thing-said play which the antitowns are promoting.

Also, which do you feel is worse: having 0-2 suspects or having 10-14. (Not being rhetorical; I'm not entirely sure.)


vezok:
What would you rather I talk about?

[EmpTyger]

I am going to be extremely busy irl for the next week, though should not have any significant affect on this game.


Maritya:

This is pathetic. Now that my bandwagon is started, all the lazy lurkers/scum are just going to pile on without much thought. The scum have this game won if they just stay active and start the bandwagons. The points being raised are null at best, so if that's the basis you guys want to lynch on, go ahead.

That’s the point I’ve been trying to make for some time now, that you haven’t shown the slightest concern about until it was your own neck. And I really am questioning why I’m bothering, when in one breath you’re wallowing in self-pity and in the next you’re still just outright dismissive.


Kise:

It's about more than (we're talking about Purp, right?) having 10-14 suspects. In fact, it's not even suspects. She wants to lynch that amount of players to

fix the issue

of stagnant activity, while also listing minor points she felt were scummy coming from each pair to justify her being behind each of their lynches.

Huh? That’s what I’ve been arguing most of today! I *agree* with you. Llama’s the one insisting otherwise. And Grey I called for doing that pages ago, while lying low himself.

[EmpTyger]

werewolf:
What, couldn't find a "ts; dr" image for this:

werewolf:
What do you think about Reckoner?
Who do you think is guilty?

Makes it's pretty obvious your "dr" had nothing to do with the "tl".


All:
...And yet, there's no point in weighing whether I'm more suspicious of PO/Espeonage or werewolf/dramonic when there aren't a majority of players interested in putting thought into trying for a town win. 

So, here are the options as I see them:
A) We call the game a draw, the effective result of perpetual no-lynch/no-kill that this setup has.

B) We do something radical to allow a chance of winning despite the lack of effort from the majority. (I'm thinking a modified vengeful until what would otherwise be lynch-or-lose, and then, if the town hasn't won, take the draw as in (A).)

C) Same as (B), except instead a slow, drawn out series of mislynches resulting from the fact that a majority of players aren't protowns trying to lynch antitowns.    

D) 12 townplayers actually put in the thought to try. Which I've been hoping for but I'm not sure this is even possible at this point.

Can we even agree on any of those? Or are we just going to default to (A)?

[EmpTyger]

Espeonage:
Where do you see 12 voters who will lynch scum?
Or by your (E) do you just mean "what happened D1"? 

[EmpTyger]

Honestly, I can't remember a worse false negative I've made in my history onsite. I don't really think I can make an effective defense of myself at this point. (I know that personally, if the roles were reversed, I'd not tolerate this kind of defense of mafia to live, no matter how much they may have been mistaken- what I did can't be tolerated for town to win.)

May I make one request? I'd like to reread the thread to reevaluate the other players, given that I made such an error when drawing the conclusions that I have already posted. After I say these closing thoughts, I'll let the town do what they will to me. I can promise that this isn't a stall: I'll ask only for until Sunday (I've got one more busy day tomorrow, but I'll have time over the weekend).

[EmpTyger]

This was a reread from the standpoint of finding the other mafia. I should note that the reread occurred before I realized silavor’s most recent post.

I agree with Grey, dramonic, et al: I think Kcda was bussed. Baby Spice voted Kcda, that’s an expectation that the group is going down, and I can’t imagine the other 2 mafia would have left themselves so exposed. So looking at the vote list (and I’m assuming the only error in the mod’s votecount was swapping Kcda and Antihero):

Reck/Nero, Tragedy/Mariyta, Antihero/GreyICE, Dram/werewolf, Kise, Llamarble, silavor, vezok

My top mafia pick had been vezok: one of the few substantial things he did D1 was defend Kcda. And his switch onto Kcda comes right before Baby Spice’s “I give up” post.

But silavor’s outburst… even aside from the nameslip, that kind of tone just doesn’t make sense coming from a townsperson who didn’t have a problem when “all that shouting” helped lynch Kcda yesterday. But I feel a little weird voting, though, because other than that post, I really wasn’t reading silavor as antitown. And given my last post offering my fate to the town, plus having just reached that conclusion about vezok, and coming off a very shaken confidence, and a little exhausted from 40+ pages- I think I may want to sleep on this before voting. (Something I might regret in the name of self-preservation, but whatever.)

I really don’t think PO/Espeonage are mafia. (And I may again regret saying this, in terms of self-preservation.) They could be werewolves- that would explain the issues I had with them. But they defended Kcda/Baby Spice when mafia shouldn’t have, and attacked when mafia probably wouldn’t have. Posts like [188] and [267]. If the plan was to bus Kcda, it makes no sense to turn around and lay down that committed a defense, especially after Baby Spice even voted Kcda. So maybe they’re werewolves, but not mafia.

ww/dramonic I was more generally suspicious of, but not really for anything mafia-specific. [964] in particular is a post that it seems ww should have made earlier, but instead he only makes it when the lynch is inevitable.

Mariyta: don’t like how she was fine with a certain playstyle, but when she got a couple votes onto her, then she started whining about it. Plus she was the one who proposed the “Baby Spice do all the talking” plan to shield Kcda.

Also, for what it’s worth there are 2 posts from Baby Spice I noted:
[724], just for being an example of what her consciously made WIFOM looks like. (The point isn’t to try to analyze [724], but to compare this posts to others.)
[953] omitted Charlie(=Haylen) and werewolf, listing as partners dramonic and silavor. I’m trying to figure out whether it was inadvertent or deliberate, and what it might mean either way.

[EmpTyger]

Reckoner:
When I just reevaluated after rereading all 40+ pages. I still have issues with the AIMlog matter, I'll admit. But my main point of contention was my general point about how your playstyle was hampering the town's ability to lynch an antitown. And that just got shown to be demonstrably false. I don't see how you can be mafia, and I have a lot higher suspects for werewolf.

[EmpTyger]

As someone who just finished doing what Charlie purportedly did- I don't believe him.  And I don't like silavor not acknowledging the slip.  And, for that matter, I don't like the slip itself.  

Vote: silavor

Reckoner:
Wait.  You're saying that after being adamant about one of Reckoner/Kise being a liar, it's suspicious to reevaluate?

[EmpTyger]

Do not go by Tragedy's [1117]. The mod's votecounts have not been accurate. I already noted that Kcda wasn't selfvoting, it was Antihero who was voting him. And I know the mod missed one of my votes earlier in the game. I haven't had a chance to fully check.

Also, again:

Everyone cut/paste the pairings into their quicktopic.

Reckoner:

Because no NEW arguments have been made and you changed your mind.

First of all, there *was* new evidence: Kcda/Baby Spice's alignment.

But that's not my issue. My problem is that that's exactly what *you* did.
*You* were adamant that one of Reckoner/Kise were a liar.
*You* allegedly reread and reevaluated.
There weren't any NEW arguments when *you* flip flopped.

And now you say that that's suspicious.

[EmpTyger]

The mod hasn't replaced Thingy after 3 weeks of inactivity.  Why do people expect werewolf to be replaced when he's not inactive?

I was thinking vezok was most likely the other mafia after my reread.  Again: one of the few substantial things vezok did D1 was defend Kcda. 
And vezok's switch onto Kcda came right before Baby Spice’s “I give up” post.  

Vote: vezokpiraka

PO:

Also, WHY DON'T YOU THINK ONE OF THEM HAS TO BE LYING ANYMORE? You were ridiculously adamant about this point, and I don't see how Kcdaspice's alignment flip changes any of that.

Because Kcda/Baby Spice's reveal removed all the other reasons I had for suspecting Reckoner.  The only thing left* was the AIMlog issue, which (a) didn't necessarily implicate Reckoner and which (b) every other player in this game has insisted has an innocent explanation.

(*prior to Reckoner's recent slip...)


Reckoner:

Flip flopping wouldn't be scummy had he not been adamant about one of me/Kise being a liar for the past forty pages.

Because no NEW arguments have been made and you changed your mind.

Still waiting to hear how this doesn't describe what *you* did.  What was "new" when you changed your mind?  


And the "tie to the dead mafia team" is how Mariyta was the one to provide cover to Kcda by promoting that Baby Spice filter him.

[EmpTyger]

Sorry for the absence, long days at work. I'll have a real post tonight and will be fully caught up tomorrow.

[EmpTyger]

Reckoner:

Still waiting to hear how this doesn't describe what *you* did. What was "new" when you changed your mind?

Uh, what exactly are you referencing here?

I'm referencing the part that you snipped out:

Flip flopping wouldn't be scummy had he not been adamant about one of me/Kise being a liar for the past forty pages.

Because no NEW arguments have been made and you changed your mind.

Still waiting to hear how this doesn't describe what *you* did. What was "new" when you changed your mind?

*You* were adamant about one of you/Kise being a liar.
As far as I can see, no NEW arguments were made when *you* changed your mind.

So, which is it?
1) Was there something NEW when you changed your mind?
2) Are you scummy for flip flopping, per your own reasoning?
3) Or were you simply pushing false logic against me?

[EmpTyger]

vezok:

DarlaBlueEyes-Ashblade- Third scum read. I am ok lynching them today. Although since ashblade replaced this is getting better.

Let's hear more about this one.
How did you come up with that read?
Why do you think DBE/Ashblade are guilty?
Why do you feel like Ashblade's getting better?


Everyone else (except Mist):
Let vezok respond. Or pressure him to answer. I want to hear something from *him*. (Or whoever helped him come up with that read.)


Reckoner:
You said behavior X is scummy, when you've done X yourself.
That's a perfectly reasonable observation for a townsperson to make. And it's perfectly reasonable for a townsperson to ask you to resolve this seeming contradiction.

What part of your reactions are reasonable for a townsperson to do?
* Initially trying to ignore the question.
* Trying to pass off a recent thing that just happened at the start of D3 (this contradiction) with an unrelated matter D1 that you know the town is tired of hearing about (the AIMlogs).
* Unrelated insults, which the mod has repeatedly warned you not to do. (most recently even explicitly using "you're an idiot" as an example)

*I* happen to think that there are good reasons to reevaluate. (Such as, you know, a player you thought was innocent flipping mafia.) But that's what *I* think.
What *you* said was that "it was scummy to flip flop" when no new arguments were made. After *you* flip flopped when no new arguments were made.

[For the record, this current matter counts as a new argument which is making me flip flop on you.]

(And this is the part where you say you're not going to respond to me, because you probably- rightly- think that the town isn't going to muster any kind of pressure on you to respond, and the easiest way to deal with a slip is to make sure it doesn't become a major topic of discussion.
Well, fine. You do that if you want.)

[EmpTyger]

I think Mariyta is town.

New rule. Kcda posts in his QT what he wants to say, then Baby relays it to us. Save us a mislynch from moronic play.

I don't see a werewolf proposing this. Mafia or town, yes. Not werewolf.

Her posting lately is ridiculously unhelpful. But I think she's town nonetheless.

I'm leaning towards PO/Espeonage. Want to reread something before I vote though. Contrawise, I'm thinking GreyIce/Antihero are town, but want to reread something else before I say so definitely.


Mariyta:
What's this meta about GreyIce/Antihero?


dramonic:
Which of PO/Espeonage are you seeing as the pretty town one? And, for what reason?


Reckoner:

Everyone should copy/paste the loverpairs into their quicktopic, if they haven't already.

Also, again:

Everyone cut/paste the pairings into their quicktopic.

Any reason you won't do this?

And *you*'re the one who dragged this out by ignoring me, and then blowing it up with an overreactive hissyfit and making me drag responses out of you. *I*'m the one who directly answered your questions each time. Next time, maybe when I ask you the first time to explain further, instead of ignoring or blowing it up with an overreactive hissyfit and making me drag an answer out of you, you could, you know, simply say what xyz is.

Seriously, you're in a mafia game. And you're acting like someone trying to objectively probe a contradiction you made, to determine whether it has an innocent explanation or not, is the most outrageous thing in the world. It shouldn't be, for town.

[EmpTyger]

Wow. I'd forgotten what it's like to play with a partner.
Welcome, Hitaki. Going to wait until I've had a chance to confer before voting/pressing any case.


Mariyta:
Seriously, after 5 years you're still doing this? Remember Chrono Trigger? Remember Post-Restriction 3? You mind not giving up or making the town drag you kicking and screaming?

[EmpTyger]

PO:
Who is Kise's partner?


Kise:

I don't think anyone found a connection between vezok/Mist & KCD/BS, BUT HEY, we still got their asses strung up.

Speak for yourself. I wonder what would have happened had silavor & Charlie not had that perfect storm of imploding just as I was at my most self-doubting.


dramonic:

Also, allow me to explain part of my bias, for full disclosure:

This is the last normal game that I'll be playing. I decided to retire, and I've signed up for one or two mini theme games, but after that, I'm done. And this is the last game dramonic signed up for with me, and I refuse to believe fate is such a cruel bitch that we ended up opposite alignments in our final game together.

This, plus my town read on him, makes me unwilling to lynch dramonic.

What is your reaction to this?


Hitari:
You weren't voting anyone. The mod hasn't had the most accurate votecounts, though it looks like it's been corrected.

[EmpTyger]

(Still going to wait for Hiraki to finish and confer.)


Everyone arguing that Mariyta is werewolf:
Can someone explain to me why werewolf-Mariyta proposed an out for Kcda?


PO:
It didn’t seem very likely that you’d be around after the next flip. And I usually find it interesting to look back on what a player had said, after their alignment gets confirmed. Whatever the alignment.


Kise:
Huh? You were the one who was misreading: you had attributed Llama’s position to me.
(I presumed the matter was settled when you dropped it…?)


Llama:
Why do you suspect Kise (other than the possibility of him bussing Espeonage)?


Espeonage:
Of Kise and Mariyta, I’d vote Kise. But I’m not voting yet, and when I do, I’ll not be limiting myself to those 2.

[EmpTyger]

Vote: Espeonage

Xalxe:
Why werewolf555?


PO:

Can you explain why town-Mariyta would call kcda scum for trying to do precisely what she suggested?

Um... Kcda didn't do what she suggested?

Mariyta suggested that Kcda relay his posts through Baby Spice.
Instead, both of them stopped posting completely for a week, and were called on it. And Mariyta called them found both suspicious when they posted on their return.

(Or, if you prefer, the explanation Mariyta gave you herself D2:

"Baby Spice took the reprieve given to her partner and jumped on the first wagon to form. I haven't had a read on her to this point, but her recent play is deliciously scumalicious." / "Kcda's play is newb-scummy, so I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Til his partner came in and ruined that, of course."

)

I don't see any problem with that. And, as I said before, I don't see a werewolf providing them that initial respite.

[EmpTyger]

Antihero:

Damn, I take a break from this game to come back to a steaming pile of bulls@#$.

I'll catch up soon.

What is this in reference to?


Llama:

I need to reread Grey & Reck; I haven't in forever because their ISOs are so long, but they've been sitting on general townreads for awhile and I want to make sure those are justified.

And the other 12 players in the game?


dramonic:
I did want an answer to this. Not that I don't expect to have to reask it after you return from V/LA. Again, what is your reaction to this:

Also, allow me to explain part of my bias, for full disclosure:

This is the last normal game that I'll be playing. I decided to retire, and I've signed up for one or two mini theme games, but after that, I'm done. And this is the last game dramonic signed up for with me, and I refuse to believe fate is such a cruel bitch that we ended up opposite alignments in our final game together.

This, plus my town read on him, makes me unwilling to lynch dramonic.

[EmpTyger]

Mod:
No, you didn’t, unless Kise is now a doublevoter.
Seriously, whatever method you’re doing to track votecounts isn’t working. With this many inaccuracies throughout the game, you need to do something differently.


LlamaF:
No, you need to explain something.

Hi. Might take me a little to get caught up in this monster.

Who was the idiot that suggested lover claim which is the worst thing you can do in this setup?

Why did you say this specifically? That is, how did you know that the loverclaim happened, but not who suggested it?
(And you shouldn’t need to get into pro vs anti claiming to clear this up.)


Espeonage:

Ideas on the hypothetical situation of Kise bussing partner's Ash and Llama when faced with a potential lynch.

Less likely than you bussing your partners.


Kise:
Not liking Llamarble/Ashblade, but more from Llamarble’s end. Honestly, I’m not seeing anything egregious in what you quoted of him. I could see that as a legitimate reaction to your play today.


Reckoner:

I will hammer whoever of Espeonage/Kise gets to L-1 first.

Where did that come from? You’ve been insisting Kise is town all game. (With one notable exception, of course.)

And as for your questions about GreyIce's reactions...

what motivation would GreyICE have for

not

going along with the quicklynch plan if he's scum?

I know AtE is supposed be null/scummy, but it makes me think GreyICE is town here. Why would he flip out this hard, as scum, not at LyLo?

Maybe because according to the plan, he doesn’t get to lynch-or-lose? Kise’s final 6 would have been the Reckoner, dramonic, and Tragedy pairs, and GreyIce had put himself solidly in the “Reckoner and dramonic are town” camp.


Antihero:
I didn’t feel anything particularly egregious got posted in your absence, and certainly nothing so predominantly as you seemed to feel.


dramonic:
Except, he did say “meta”, repeatedly. Including a day or two before and after that post.

Let me put it this way: my town metaread on dram is still really strong, despite the lurking.

werewolf, on the other hand, has been essentially nonexistent, but luckily we know that that slot is already town, due to dram being obvtown, due to meta.

I don’t see any reason for him to suddenly be shy about it. Can you think of any other explanation?

[EmpTyger]

Temporary

unvote: Espeonage

. I need to discuss something with Hiraki.

[EmpTyger]

There’s a difference of opinion here between Hiraki and myself that I have been trying to clear up. That... doesn’t appear to be happening. So speaking for myself:

1) I don’t think Espeonage should be today’s lynch any longer.
He was sitting on the edge with a major wagon on him. LlamaF’s [1621] could have either brought attention onto someone else, or onto LlamaF himself. Yet Espeonage immediately ices the topic in [1623]. I don’t see Espeonage doing that as werewolf. (Except maybe to shield a partner. But in that case I don’t think he should be today’s lynch, because there is really only one potential partner I can see...)

2) LlamaF’s [1621] is setting off redflags.
I may be reading way way too much into a single post. But

"Who was the idiot that suggested lover claim which is the worst thing you can do in this setup?"

seems far too contrived.
Reading from the end, why would he assume that the list of lovers was the result of a loverclaim, rather than the natural result of normal bandwagon-to-claims and deductions which developed out over the course of the past 5 days?
Reading from the beginning, he would have seen GreyIce's early suggestions on p1, and wouldn’t be asking “who was the idiot”- he would be saying “GreyIce is an idiot” and making a specific case.
But as an antitown entering the game, it’s a simple distracting natural-seeming topic to push.

3) Kise’s recent play has been reminding me of how I've played as mafia in games with a 2-person mafia and my lynch is approaching.

[EmpTyger]

Tragedy:
EmpTyger is not doing any voting until he clears up why he is having an increasingly opposing view from Hiraki about Espeonage and Kise.
The hammer you should be sensing is the one that Kise and LlamaF might have done to save their own necks, if 1 more player had voted Espeonage. That is, had I not unvoted while I try to resolve this. 

[EmpTyger]

blech I'll do something one way or the other in 24 hours. Sorry all for the hesitation.

[EmpTyger]

I really don't like Kise/LlamaF, but in the end I think I have to listen to my heart (ie my lover).

Vote: Espeonage

.

Also, I'm very leery of those trying to argue that dramonic is the worse half of his loverpair.

[EmpTyger]

LlamaF:
What are the reasons you think PO/Espeonage town?

[EmpTyger]

LlamaF:
...Okay, then what are your reasons for thinking PO town?
(Seriously, I ask you why PO/Espeonage are town, and the bulk of your reply is about how Espeonage is suspicious?)


Reckoner:
For that matter, what are your reasons for thinking that dramonic is 100% absolutely town, again?  If I remember correctly, here's what you've given:
1) He always plays like this (which doesn't make him not-werewolf)
2) He would have bussed someone D1 if guilty, and he didn't bus Kise because Kise has to be innocent (which clearly you no longer think)
3) Wishful thinking


GreyIce:
So dramonic/Xalxe can't be werewolf because the werewolf team has to have had copious and coherent notes in their quicktopic...?
I mean, even temporarily accepting all the assumptions you're making about how the werewolves are playing: If the werewolves are that organized, why couldn't they just be instructing Xalxe to lurk for as long as he can get away with? 

[EmpTyger]

Unvote: Espeonage

I'm not convinced that PO/Espeonage are innocent, but there are enough outstanding issues that I'm not yet ready to see them lynched. (I do not expect Hiraki to like or agree with this. I expect us to have some words for each other.)


Kise:

Based on what was said, xalxe requested replacement.

Hold on. How do you know this?


Reckoner:
Looks like I forgot one...

Reckoner:
For that matter, what are your reasons for thinking that dramonic is 100% absolutely town, again? If I remember correctly, here's what you've given:
1) He always plays like this (which doesn't make him not-werewolf)
2) He would have bussed someone D1 if guilty, and he didn't bus Kise because Kise has to be innocent (which clearly you no longer think)
3) Wishful thinking

4) There simply isn't any reason to think dramonic innocent.
Maybe you're werewolf shielding fellow werewolves because you don't think anyone will ever call you on such an audacious play. Maybe you're werewolf buddying to innocents. I don't know. All I know is that what you've said doesn't add up. And it increasingly seems like you know it, and you keep blustering it, and ignoring direct and legitimate questions because you feel you can get away with it without any consequences.

You want to argue that there are worse lurkers? Fine. That doesn't lead to "dramonic must be town".
You want to argue that you can read dramonic perfectly? Fine. Then share a read that bears out, not just reasonless repetition.
You want to cite nonsense that even dramonic himself doesn't buy it? Fine. I'm calling you on it.

And if you want to ignore this and try to bury it under more phony rage and insults? Fine. Let's see who, if anyone, buys it.

[EmpTyger]

First thought: If Kise is innocent, werewolves were likely passive. (They would want a situation where it's Espeonage or Kise, and then the other.)
If Kise is guilty, werewolves were likely active. (They either want Espeonage to die, or they want to divert attention off of both and onto someone new.)
I want to reread D5 to consider both possibilities, but Ashblade is bringing up a very good point with Kise's before/after lynch posts.


Llamarble:
Why are Reckoner/Nero town?


Reckoner:
Right, as I was saying: You don't have any reason why dramonic is innocent, but you keep blustering that he's 100% town anyway, without providing a single reason, and instead shouting insults whenever anyone asks a legitimate question about how every reason you've given doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny

(For the record: my point isn't that we lynch you regardless of dramonic's alignment; my point is that we should be lynching you instead.)

[EmpTyger]

Reality check:

I’m not “tunneling Reckoner”.

I asked him a perfectly legitimate question: How come Reckoner continues to insist dramonic is 100% must-be-definite-bet-the-game-on-it town. This should have had an easy answer: “dramonic is town because dramonic did _________, and dramonic-as-mafia-or-werewolf would not do _________.” But the scant reasons Reckoner has given are either baseless or contradicted.

Not only am I not assuming his guilt, but I’ve been actively exploring whether there is an innocent explanation for what he’s done. That’s the *opposite* of tunneling.
And I’ve not been ignoring other players while I’m doing so. Again, that’s the *opposite* of tunneling.

(Yeah, I had to ask multiple times. But that’s not tunneling. That’s Reckoner trying to ignore or deflect or OMGUS his way out of the issue.)

Spoiler: What Reckoner calls “tunneling”

LlamaF:
...Okay, then what are your reasons for thinking PO town?
(Seriously, I ask you why PO/Espeonage are town, and the bulk of your reply is about how Espeonage is suspicious?)


Reckoner:
For that matter, what are your reasons for thinking that dramonic is 100% absolutely town, again? If I remember correctly, here's what you've given:
1) He always plays like this (which doesn't make him not-werewolf)
2) He would have bussed someone D1 if guilty, and he didn't bus Kise because Kise has to be innocent (which clearly you no longer think)
3) Wishful thinking


GreyIce:
So dramonic/Xalxe can't be werewolf because the werewolf team has to have had copious and coherent notes in their quicktopic...?
I mean, even temporarily accepting all the assumptions you're making about how the werewolves are playing: If the werewolves are that organized, why couldn't they just be instructing Xalxe to lurk for as long as he can get away with?

Unvote: Espeonage

I'm not convinced that PO/Espeonage are innocent, but there are enough outstanding issues that I'm not yet ready to see them lynched. (I do not expect Hiraki to like or agree with this. I expect us to have some words for each other.)


Kise:

Based on what was said, xalxe requested replacement.

Hold on. How do you know this?


Reckoner:
Looks like I forgot one...

Reckoner:
For that matter, what are your reasons for thinking that dramonic is 100% absolutely town, again? If I remember correctly, here's what you've given:
1) He always plays like this (which doesn't make him not-werewolf)
2) He would have bussed someone D1 if guilty, and he didn't bus Kise because Kise has to be innocent (which clearly you no longer think)
3) Wishful thinking

4) There simply isn't any reason to think dramonic innocent.
Maybe you're werewolf shielding fellow werewolves because you don't think anyone will ever call you on such an audacious play. Maybe you're werewolf buddying to innocents. I don't know. All I know is that what you've said doesn't add up. And it increasingly seems like you know it, and you keep blustering it, and ignoring direct and legitimate questions because you feel you can get away with it without any consequences.

You want to argue that there are worse lurkers? Fine. That doesn't lead to "dramonic must be town".
You want to argue that you can read dramonic perfectly? Fine. Then share a read that bears out, not just reasonless repetition.
You want to cite nonsense that even dramonic himself doesn't buy it? Fine. I'm calling you on it.

And if you want to ignore this and try to bury it under more phony rage and insults? Fine. Let's see who, if anyone, buys it.

This is a reasonable question for a townsperson to ask. It is not tunneling.
Reckoner’s reactions are not reasonable, at least not for a townsperson.
But they are perfectly reasonable for a werewolf.

Reality check #2:

I’m not “tunneling dramtown”

How is tunneling on dramtown town?

So, dramonic is town based on reasons that only Reckoner could possibly know because of his oh-so-mysterious metaread of dramonic.
Reckoner give us contradictions and nonsense and emotional bluster instead of straight answers for what dramonic specifically did to make him 100% town.
…But then Reckoner says that I’m guilty for not knowing that dramonic is town, something which according to Reckoner is something only Reckoner himself can know!

Nope. The only way this adds up is if Reckoner’s making it up as he goes along.


Llamarble:
I still want to know why you say that Reckoner must be town.

Also, for the record,

People have the same thought as their lover or hydra buddies fairly often since both players share a perspective on the game.”

Speak for yourself. Are you saying that you and your partners have been in that solid agreement?


GreyIce:
And I want to know why you say that Reckoner must be town.

Also, for the record,

So Reck and Fate's dumb theory is that I'm scum with EMP and Hiraki, who are pushing for Dram's lynch, while I say they're town.

Hiraki is pushing Kise. I haven’t figured out whose lynch I want today, but it’s definitely not dramonic: I want Reckoner dead more than dramonic.
I suspect you might gotten the wrong idea because you’re listening to a certain player’s blustering. A certain player you keep insisting is town, for some reason that you’re about to tell me.


Fate:

I'd figure RECKscum would be more paranoid in a multi-scum game, and keep his Dramread options open for awhile.

How so, especially in this setup? There’s no opposing nightkill to fear. Why not buddy up? It’s not like Reckoner locked himself out of saying “aha caught a read” later on. He blusters away giving a real reason, and avoids specifics, and gets himself a voting bloc.

And, what on p50 makes you see Kise and Reckoner as town-town? I don’t see anything indicative of any alignment between them.

(And, sorry for having to work overtime, but I sometimes do.)


Kise:
I don’t see an answer in all of that to the question of, “What changed between your “should’ve voted Ashblade” and your actual voting of GreyIce?”

Oooo, bring on the caps and hope they fall for the act. You're raging over a vote from Nero. Bad nerves, I know. No matter how hard you whine, it's ingenuine caps-rage. It's just 2 votes on you and you already had to preemptively bring out the caps. FOH.

How is this different (/how do you see this as any different) from how Reckoner has acted? Either recently, after I pointed out how his reasons regarding dramonic had evaporated, or earlier, eg with Haylen/silavor?

And if you also think dramonic must be innocent for meta-reasons… well, what did he do that a guilty-dramonic wouldn’t do?

[EmpTyger]

Reckoner:

Not only am I not assuming his guilt

Except for the parts where you say I'm scum.

/semantics No, that’s my *conclusion*.

How come Reckoner continues to insist dramonic is 100% must-be-definite-bet-the-game-on-it town. This should have had an easy answer: “dramonic is town because dramonic did _________, and dramonic-as-mafia-or-werewolf would not do _________.” But the scant reasons Reckoner has given are either baseless or contradicted.

PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS
I HAVE CLEARLY SAID (AT LEAST A BILLION TIMES NOW) THAT MY READ ON DRAM IS PURE GUT & META & PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP STUFF, AND I'VE INVITED YOU ALL TO NOT BELIEVE IT, BUT YOU'RE

NOT GOING TO GET MY VOTE

.

NOW who is ignoring posts?
<snip>
You're attacking my read on dram for being something I never said it was.

And that is one of the many reasons why you're scummy. You're strawmanning my read on dram (which is a misrep), you're now saying you weren't assuming my guilt (which is a lie), and your actual case on me was weak (as I've already pointed out). In fact, your entire response to my case on you was 'RECK SAYS I'M TUNNELING I'LL SHOW YOU HOW I'M NOT TUNNELING', thereby completely ignoring everything I've said.

1) I’m not trying to get you to vote dramonic. I’m not trying to set up a bandwagon on dramonic.
I’m trying to ascertain *your* alignment.

2) Okay, let’s talk about what you’ve “clearly said”.

More or less. Dramonic likes to play scum the same way that I do. Here's my logic behind it, and it's the same logic I've used to catch dramonic in the past:

1. Ideal play for scum is to appear as townie as possible.
2. The best way to appear townie is to catch scum.
3. When you're scum, you already know who the scum area.
4. Therefore, bussing is the best way to get town credit.

It doesn't make complete sense, I know... but that's more or less how I've caught dramonic before.

Also, allow me to explain part of my bias, for full disclosure:

This is the last normal game that I'll be playing. I decided to retire, and I've signed up for one or two mini theme games, but after that, I'm done. And this is the last game dramonic signed up for with me, and I refuse to believe fate is such a cruel bitch that we ended up opposite alignments in our final game together.

This, plus my town read on him, makes me unwilling to lynch dramonic.

[I thought you had also said somewhere that dramonic lurking was a nulltell because he always did so, but I can’t seem to find that quote. I’m sure you’ll correct me if I’m wrong.]

And what did I say:

Reckoner:
For that matter, what are your reasons for thinking that dramonic is 100% absolutely town, again? If I remember correctly, here's what you've given:
1) He always plays like this (which doesn't make him not-werewolf)
2) He would have bussed someone D1 if guilty, and he didn't bus Kise because Kise has to be innocent (which clearly you no longer think)
3) Wishful thinking

I asked you whether there was anything else,

because what you said isn’t adding up.

That’s a reasonable question.

What do you do?
You ignore it. You insult me. You continue to bluster without actual reason. You accuse me of tunneling.
That’s not a reasonable response.

It’s not “MORE OBVIOUS” because your account isn’t true. *Your* story doesn’t hold up and keeps changing. And instead of ever clarifying, you act like daring to ask about your contradictions is the most unreasonable thing in the world.

And that’s why I’m concluding you’re guilty.

[EmpTyger]

The rest of you:
I do feel like I want to echo Reckoner's question. How is this not more obvious? Where is the Reckoner-must-be-town (and more town than dramonic, for that matter) coming from?

[EmpTyger]

Same reality check:
Just because Reckoner repeats something, or puts it in allcaps, or punctuates it with bluster, doesn't mean that that's what happened.
Here's what he said:

More or less. Dramonic likes to play scum the same way that I do. Here's my logic behind it, and it's the same logic I've used to catch dramonic in the past:

1. Ideal play for scum is to appear as townie as possible.
2. The best way to appear townie is to catch scum.
3. When you're scum, you already know who the scum area.
4. Therefore, bussing is the best way to get town credit.

It doesn't make complete sense, I know... but that's more or less how I've caught dramonic before.

"Here's my logic behind it, and it's the same logic I've used to catch dramonic in the past."

Explainable logic. Not some vague gut that he's trying to run behind now when it's convenient, and covering it up by attacking the person calling him out.

[EmpTyger]

Kise:

Kise:
I don’t see an answer in all of that to the question of, “What changed between your “should’ve voted Ashblade” and your actual voting of GreyIce?”

Oooo, bring on the caps and hope they fall for the act. You're raging over a vote from Nero. Bad nerves, I know. No matter how hard you whine, it's ingenuine caps-rage. It's just 2 votes on you and you already had to preemptively bring out the caps. FOH.

How is this different (/how do you see this as any different) from how Reckoner has acted? Either recently, after I pointed out how his reasons regarding dramonic had evaporated, or earlier, eg with Haylen/silavor?

And if you also think dramonic must be innocent for meta-reasons… well, what did he do that a guilty-dramonic wouldn’t do?

Fate:
That’s kind of my point.

Blackest night is the best example... it was a damn thing of beauty,

"oh dram's interactions with this guy on this post and drma would've prob-bussed at this instance so listed X buddies as scumreads

and ONE TWO THREE: Bam Dram's scumteam found."

What’s the equivalent bluetext reason for this game?
1) The explanation Reckoner earlier got contradicted, but Reckoner keeps insisting that dramonic’s still innocent and won’t explain why.
2) Reckoner says it’s impossible for him to give explanations about dramonic, when he blatantly has. (and now blustering that he never has reasons, even in the face of my quoting it, and further disproved by what you just cited)
3) Reckoner’s acting like it’s the most unreasonable thing in the world for someone to ask about these apparent contradictions in his behavior.

[EmpTyger]

GreyIce:
Missed your question earlier. Strongest townread is PZ/Tragedy. Big dropoff after that. I don’t think I’m comfortable listing anyone else yet. However, I will say *again* that I don’t want to lynch dramonic, not before Reckoner. Why do you keep saying I do?

And why do you say that the partners of Kise (temporarily assuming he is werewolf) are playing a lurking game?


Fate:

Reck hasn't given reasons why dram is town?

All the more reason to trust him. Town meta is one thing, scum meta is another.

When you see scum meta you see specifc reasons and plans in their actions, and thus can explain WHY they're scum. When soeone you can read is town, its just obv with every post they make but you can't explain it concretely, cept to say there's a lack of scumplayemta ine their posts.


Like how I know Kise is town this game. ALSO reckscum would definitely BS some reasons for his read on dramtown, to avoid heat, so that's a good sign as well.

Um, that’s *exactly* what Reckoner did. I’ll quote it again.

More or less. Dramonic likes to play scum the same way that I do. Here's my logic behind it, and it's the same logic I've used to catch dramonic in the past:

1. Ideal play for scum is to appear as townie as possible.
2. The best way to appear townie is to catch scum.
3. When you're scum, you already know who the scum area.
4. Therefore, bussing is the best way to get town credit.

It doesn't make complete sense, I know... but that's more or less how I've caught dramonic before.

Also, have you considered Reckoner/GreyIce? Because that’s what I want to reread to check (D2 especially). GreyIce’s play makes no sense today as werewolf- unless he’s werewolf with Reckoner (or you). He’s putting his neck on the line arguing for a Reckoner/dramonic/GreyIce endgame. And he has earlier taken opposing positions as Reckoner, yet concluded unshakingly that Reckoner must be innocent.


Reckoner:

EmpTyger/Hiraki, without GreyICE/Antihero, could be ANYONE as the buddies.

Anyone except your 4 fastest, you mean...

[EmpTyger]

GreyIce:

And why do you say that the partners of Kise (temporarily assuming he is werewolf) are playing a lurking game?

No response to this?

And let's talk about my radar.
D1 I was right about q21.

D2 I was wrong about Kcda, yes.  (Because I was too suspicious of how attention shifted to him off of Reckoner, Llamarble, and you.)

D3 was s perfect storm of me reeling from the D2 misread, just when silavor and Charlie both imploded. (Which everyone across the board got wrong.)

D4 I was right about vezok.

D5 I let my partner talk me out of my feeling about Espeonage.

The main thing I think I've done wrong is let myself doubt my reads. 

[EmpTyger]

Kise:

My attempt to get support for the Ashblade bombed day 5. I've laid the smack down and that's all I really have to offer as far as case-building. With the majority/those I view as town due to PoE + replacement meta do not see Ash & marble as scum, I am moving on to GI, who I thought I even had support with my lover. Though we don't post much in the QT, I have pestered LF to argue or agree with my scumreads, and argue or agree with my reasons to find Trag, dram and slightly Reck as town. After seeing Reck (I believe it was Reck) give a town read on Ash, I decided that I may as well use other's scumread of GI to make progress.

This doesn't match what actually happened. I don't see any townread on Ashblade from Reckoner- but I do however see Reckoner saying thst about GreyIce.
For that matter, I don't see much of a case from you against Ashblade D5- you overwhelmingly pushed against Espeonage. You had a minor attack against Ashblade, but it was just as directed against GreyIce.
And then why this post:

Yeah im sticking with my ash/llamarble pair lynch.  I see them as the partner to dram/fate or

ice/anti

(even can work with emp/hikari).

WHA




THFUC




YOU DOING


YOUVE PLAYED THIS GAME FOR 3 YEARS RIGHT??
   RIGHT???
SENS SENT IN FOR COMIC RELIEF??

Grey, if you flip town, I will go after Kise before endgame.

My EmpTyger lynch takes priority.

Ugh, why are

we

lynching them again?

STAY FOCUSED

You rail against LlamaF for disagreeing about Ashblade? According to you, that's what you were thinking.
 
I'm not convinced, enough so to compromise.

Vote: Kise

 


Fate:
Why aren't you even considering Reckoner, even from a perspective of who might a guilty GreyIce's partner be?  Especially after I showed how Reckoner did what you said "reckscum would definitiely" do.


Fate/LlamaF:
How does a GreyIce/Ashblade werewolf team makes sense for the play of D6? I'm still not seeing it.    
 

GreyIce:
If you're innocent and Kise is guilty, you think the other werewolves have been lurking through Kise getting severely bandwagoned D5 and D6, and haven't been chainsawing or counterbandwagoning or bussing or anything like mad these past 2 days?
I have such a hard time thinking that anyone could think that.
 

Reckoner:
Not every Princess Bride reference can be WIFOM.

[EmpTyger]

This is preposterous.  I just did an iso-read on Hiraki and it's nothing but scumtell after scumtell after scumtell.  I don't see how we've let him live this long.  Based on his meta, there's no way he could be town.  Is it too late to lynch him today?  He must be werewolf.

[EmpTyger]

He's also your lover...

Huh.  Good point.  I guess that makes me werewolf too.

Unvote: Kise
Vote: EmpTyger

[EmpTyger]

Hold on, I just reread Hiraki, and it seems I missed a small detail. Apparently, all of those reads are only valid for April 1. 

Unvote: EmpTyger
Vote: Kise

 


APRIL FOOLS  

[EmpTyger]

Kise:
Here's Reckoner's fullpost:

Kise & Llama both need to get off Ashblade, it's a waste of a vote.

Llamafluff is scummy as shit. He refuses to join the main wagons of the day and is basically hopping around from useless wagon to useless wagon. He needs to vote Kise or Espeonage.

That being said, Esp is at 6, Kise is at 5 right now. Xalxe, antihero, myself, Kise, and Llama are the only ones not voting one of the main two wagons, and it's nine to lynch. Unless someone flips from the Kise wagon onto the Espeonage wagon, that would mean me, Xalxe, Antihero, and LlamaFluff would ALL have to vote Kise in order to get his lynch. Meanwhile, Kise would undoubtedly vote Esp to save himself, which means only two of me/Xalxe/Antihero/Llamafluff would have to vote Espeonage. At this point, I just want a fucking lynch.

Vote: Espeonage

LET HIM FLIP THEN WE'LL TALK TOMORROW

It is quite clear that that's not a townread: that's Reckoner pushing people onto either of the 2 main bandwagons. I think you're grasping at straws. Reckoner is no more giving a townread on Ashblade here than he gave a townread on me when he unvoted me.


LlamaF:

Along the lines of how ash is scummy, and has grey as a strong-ish town read, while its recpiricated by grey and anti. They are playing a game where neither of them really talk about eachother much, but both have these town reads on eachother that arent really backed up by much. Why llama/ash go before grey/anti is a feeling I have that its llama/ash/dram/fate. If its those four, the ice/grey lynch likely ends in a mislynch of me and Kise tomorrow. That is why I dont know why people who want Ice dead arent backing me up, since unless its ice/anti + Emp/Hikari (since I dont think ice/anti/PZ/tragedy is too likely), ash/llama is the lynch. Lets do it already

If you genuinely thought this, then that means you think that Reckoner and I are both town- and you'd be genuinely worried about how we're at each others' throats. But you're not, not at all. I don't believe you.


dramonic:

"I do not see a scum motivation to bring up false evidence in a context where it can be refuted"

How would Kise know that it could be refuted, when he brought it up?
Moreover, I thought your position was that Kise somehow misremembered what had happened. Why couldn't a werewolf bring up something he thought would have completely implicated Reckoner as (presumably) lying mafia? And when the AIMlogs came up, and it seemed like Kise would be believed less and lynched first, jumped on a nevermind exit strategy.
(Or, for that matter, why couldn't it be deliberate on both side, to distance and confirm? I mean, I know what your answer is going to be.)


Fate:
Of course I'm not going to consider the case in which GreyIce/EmpTyger are werewolf. And if that's the only possibility for GreyIce being werewolf, then I'm not voing him. And that's going to be true regardless of my alignment.

I'm trying to figure out whether who could make sense as GreyIce's partner. And the only ones I could see with GreyIce's play today are dramonic/you and Reckoner/Nero. And dramonic/you doesn't make sense with your play, because I don't see any reason for you to start a GreyIce wagon rather than support Reckoner's existing attacks on me. So that leaves Reckoner/Nero as the only possibility, which is why I'm not going to lynch GreyIce before Reckoner.

Now, if you're going to say GreyIce/Ashblade could be a possibility, I'll consider it. But the only argument you've given is that he's voting Kise. Which clearly isn't in itself a sign of guilt.


GreyIce:
PZ didn't counterbandwagon. He voted Espeonage early, and then sat quietly by as the Kise wagon formed. He lurked- which was your point. As for Tragedy, hm...


Tragedy:
What changed since

"If PO/Esp flips town, down with Kise."

?

Also, where are Ashblade and myself in your list in [2133]

It's pretty unfortunate on how Llamarble is more focused on Kise, when he doesn't even consider the problem about GreyICE, ugh.

Vote: GreyICE

I'm as confused as Llamarble. What does this mean?

[EmpTyger]

Hiraki:
Quicktopic, please?


dramonic:
Huh?  So according to you: when Kise first accused Reckoner, Kise knew the accusation was false, but Kise deliberately made it anyway because Kise knew Reckoner could rebut it... and that's why Kise is town?  

Spell me out your stance on Kise again.


GreyIce:

HERE'S THE LIST OF TEAMS WITH A PARTNER WHO HAVE  
FLAKED:

XRECKONER
<snip>

?

[EmpTyger]

Reckoner:
Can I ask you a straightforward question about your reads without you exploding?

[EmpTyger]

ugh Sorry, been very busy irl.


Reckoner:
The question is, I want to know why not dramonic/Fate/Kise/LlamaF. I again reread dramonic in isolation, and there still are a lot of redflags. There's nothing overwhelming in here- all of this is weak, I know, and I'm too rushed too put it into a more substantial form. But, taken together:

Dramonic was suspicious about Kise the entire game, then bandwagons on Kise formed, and his story has completely 180ed. His current logic for why Kise is innocent doesn't sound like something he came up with on his own, especially compared to what he was saying earlier in the game about Kise. And his "Did Kise just claim scum"- there's something about it that feels like one werewolf overparsing another.

[Honestly, I wanted to know about the dramonic/Kise possibility on D5, and when you reacted the way you did to my question, I drew one conclusion.]


Fate:
Everything you are saying could be applied just as much for why Kise is guilty and GreyIce is innocent.
Moreover, we had this situation D5, with Espeonage vs Kise. How is this any different?


Tragedy:
Who do you see as potential partners with Llamarble/Ashblade?

[EmpTyger]

Tragedy:
Actually, I did just isoread dramonic. The one who jumped out with him was Kise.


Llamarble:
Looking at the D5/D6 counterwagons, why not one of the obvious possibilities of either Reckoner/Nero or dramonic/Fate?


Reckoner:
I really don't know why I tried.

[EmpTyger]

Sorry again, and I'm not even caught up yet. But I do want to reread D5. Both choices that day were against townspeople.

Hiraki:
I wanted you to post in quicktopic *in addition to* the mainthread, not instead of. D5 and D6 could have both benefitted from us communicating out our doubts.

[EmpTyger]

I've barely skimmed D7, and just haven't had time to do any substantial kind of rereading of D5. I'm not sure when I'll be able to, so in the meantime.

I'm trying to work out pairings. Where I sit:
Tragedy/anyone: Mariyta's play towards the mafia
GreyIce/dramonic: Fate's play D6.
GreyIce/Llamarble: GreyIce's play D6.
Reckoner/Llamarble: [2480-2481]
GreyIce/Reckoner: ?
Reckoner/dramonic: ?
Llamarble/dramonic: ?

Does anyone have any actually evidence they can replace the ? above with? I think I want to look into Llamarble first.


DH:
...I suggest you also iso me and ctrl+F Reckoner. My [2035] and [2037] are 2 good samples to look at. Though, I'm not sure what to make of at the moment.
Re Mariyta, see my [1522]. And in both of the prior games I've been in with Mariyta, her behavior has [unfortunately] matched that final post you've cited. I read that as genuine.

[EmpTyger]

I'm sick, I'm working overtime, I'm supposed to be going out of town this weekend. I haven't found the time to read more than a few pages this past week. My partner doesn't want to use the quicktopic. What am I supposed to do? I'm giving my thoughts and trying to work with the rest of the town as best I can.

[EmpTyger]

Can't say I didn't deserve that, given my posting rate of late, but, ugh all the same. What a way to end this week.

Lynch Reckoner tomorrow.

That will buy you 2 days to find his partners. I'm thinking GreyIce and dramonic should do it.

[EmpTyger]

Well done, werewolves. Thanks all and mod for the game.

Sorry town for D7. Real-life picked a devil of a time to swallow me up. Every time I caught a breath, something else fell on me. I never got more than 4 pages into a read. I was trying to be complete, but in retrospect, should probably should have just made a case on Reckoner so that it would have been out there. My twilight post was obviously not enough.



Reckoner:

Also, the fact that NOBODY suspected Me/mastin + Fate/Dram today or yesterday is hilarious.

...Almost nobody:

Lynch Reckoner tomorrow.

That will buy you 2 days to find his partners. I'm thinking GreyIce and dramonic should do it.

Of course, thanks to are-you-sure-you-didn't-get-a-traitor-role-PM GreyIce, it was too late for the town.

But you did such a great job discrediting me that, ironically, I think that it was for the best I died before lynch-or-lose. In any case, I was in no shape to fight you D7, and kind of got what I deserved. Considering I couldn't ever even convince Hiraki when he knew my alignment...

And, how many times did you lie, misrepresent, spout utter nonsense, outright hinder the town... and then talk yourself out of it to the point where so many people declared you town?


GreyIce:
The number of times I had to stop in my logical tracks because "well, that can't be, because there are only 4 werewolves"... ugh. Until postgame I seriously couldn't tell which of dramonic and you were Reckoner's partner. I mean, I understand a bad read: I cleared Kcda. But that was because I saw an easylynch being pushed by guilties. Whereas, you were loudly declaring Reckoner innocent for doing things that a guilty player would do and would *want* to do. I'm still baffled.


Kise:
Then again, you did the same thing. And you even called out how Reckoner was lying D1! What was with that D1, with your recanting? That gave me enough pause to let up on Reckoner, and made me question you as much as him.


LlamaF:
I could see dramonic innocent and Reckoner guilty. But I couldn't see dramonic guilty and Reckoner innocent. That's why I didn't support a dramonicwagon. To a lesser degree, I probably should have minded the gamestate and kept you alive, but your minor slips and Kise's major ones made me support your lynch. Plus if Reckoner were innocent, you and Kise pretty much had to be guilty- there just weren't any other pairs.

As for "rage-posting"- yeah, that cost the town. I was trying to fight it D2, but after Kcda easylynch wound up being on target, I hesitated, and then silavor and Espeonage stumbled into mislynches and their weren't really enough townspeople left to fight it.

Also, for the record, why did you think a loverclaim bad in this setup?


silavor/Charlie:
Ugh. A lot of almosts here. If I hadn't been so wrong about Kcda- that shook me into reevaluating every single thing. But, I'm not apologizing- you both said the absolute wrong things at the wrong times, and didn't stick around to defend yourselves. If you had held on a little longer, vezok might have succumbed first. It would have been good to have had you and around, to say nothing of the extra day.


PO/Espeonage:
This one I will apologize for. Yours was a horrid, horrid mislynch, and I'm sorry I didn't brake it stronger at the end. Regardless of your alignment, you would have been better to have around than any number of alternatives, and I trusted my partner instead of looking closely at who you could even be paired with. Worst of all, I didn't consider the bigger picture of what the gamestate would be after your lynch. Plus my still being a little shaky after the Kcda mess, and a lingering misread on you from earlier in the game caused me to discount a solid protown read that I picked up. Sorry.


Hiraki:
D5 I trusted you too much with Espeonage/PO, and didn't communicate my doubts.
D6 You trusted me too much with Kise/LlamaF, and didn't communicate your doubts.
D7 neither of us communicated at all. And I don't fault the town for lynching us for it.
So, both of our faults. But the moral of the story? Communication is necessary. The playstyle you prefer- it's what the werewolves did to win, and the townspeople who used it played into their hands.


Llamarble/Ashblade:
Weird question, but: One of the reasons why I was trying to reread D7 was because at some point I had some reason why you couldn't be werewolf with dramonic. I couldn't remember it though, and wanted to check that it was actually there. Um, you don't happen to know what it was?


DH:
I don't blame you too much- knowing GreyIce is innocent and replacing in late makes it really hard to discount his version of events.


Kcda:
Not kidding. I don't remember ever having a worse false negative before; and that's even with this being a known multifaction game.


Yaw:
Thanks for stepping in. Only quibble is that you should have sooner, if the mod's access is that atrocious.

[EmpTyger]

Re raging:
Raging is essentially an extreme form of tunneling, but with the added detriment of hindering the town's main weapon: the ability to discuss. But I think if you're looking to policy lynch, stick with the basics: Liars and lurkers, in that order. Would've worked this game.


Re votecounts:
Espeonage/PO did have some pretty sophisticated votecounts, but the mafia lynches muddled things D2 and D4, and silavor's lynch D3 wasn't really analyzable. I think Hiraki looked into votecounts also at some point. (Maybe? He talked about "votals" a lot, but I never quite understood what he meant by that term.)

The big thing though was that the lover mechanic distorted voting by essentially doubling the playercount, but the doubling doesn't translate into bandwagons. I looked myself into votecounts a couple times, but there just wasn't anything too discernable. (The original mod's nonsensical deadline policy didn't help the voting process, either.)


LlamaF:
But, let's say Nero does get scrutinized, gets run up, and claims his lover- then it devolves into the claimed scenario. Only, the lack of information makes it easier for antitowns to prevent themselves from being run up in the first place. The problem wasn't that people weren't scrutizing Nero enough it's that they weren't scrutinizing *Reckoner* enough. Even without antitown interference, it's logistically a lot harder to track 22 than it is to track 11.

It's certainly a moot point, but, I still maintain that revealing this information helps the town in discussing the matter. If town can't eliminate their biases, they're going to lose anyhow.

[EmpTyger]

And I'm not sure where the middle ground is, here: spamming + capslockraging is one side of the coin, and wallposting + lurking is the other.

This gets to the crux of the matter. But the important bit with any behavior is context. *Why* someone does something has to be considered alongside *what* they do. I think it’s a mistake to consider all forms of raging equivalent. In some scenarios, it could be what’s most appropriate. In others, it will be lynchworthy.

And to clarify: I do think “enjoyable”, “fun”, “antisocial”, etc. are far too subjective to be a criteria on what playstyles are acceptable. Regardless, though: when the mod says where the line is, that must be respected by the players. (Of course, it’s the mod’s responsibility to not muddy that line. If SensFan was saying one line by PM to Reckoner and acting on another in thread… well, no wonder there was a mess. No better if he was consistently saying the same thing privately and publically, but yet allowing Reckoner to do whatever he wanted regardless.)


Kise:
Huh. Well, if Reckoner really didn’t talk to you… Was it dramonic or Nero? Or did you exaggerate as some kind of weird gambit? Or just make it up?


LlamaF:
I guess, from my point of view, I felt there wasn’t so much a lack of evidence against Reckoner, as much as a lack of willingness to analyze that evidence. There would have been the same problem against Nero- or, as actually happened, with dramonic.

Although I think part of our disagreement is that you and I may have fundamentally different approaches to play. Some kind of deductive/inductive schism, I think. It’s probably getting a bit tangential to discuss here, though. PM, if you want to continue?


silavor:
It’s how you would have done it, versus what you would have done. Especially having seen what you did in N1061.


Llamarble:
No, it was something from earlier- I had already eliminated you/dramonic D6. Ah well.


DH:

Vote counts coming from two different mods crushed my will to do VCA rather quickly.

That’s only the half of it. SensFan’s votecounts weren’t exactly frequent or accurate.


SensFan:
Sorry if I’m coming across hard on you. Chalk it up to some vestigial enmity towards inattentive or flaky NY mods.

[EmpTyger]

Mariyta:
(Forgot to include you in my postgame rundown, and not even sure you're still reading, but)
This is the third Large game we've played, and in each of them, you seem to have a problem being motivated to play through to the end. Might I suggest you reconsider whether this size game is appropriate for you?


Reckoner:
Afterthought: this is an interesting counterpoint to Robot Chicken Mafia. Though I admittedly had a much easier setup to help me there.


SensFan:
I think most of this you've probably learned already, but rather than leaving with just passive-aggressive digs, let me be direct and constructive.

A mod's responsibility is to the players. Not to their own ego.

* There is no shame in using a backupmod. There's a reason why backupmods are required. A successfully modded game isn't one that you didn't need help with;

a successfully modded game is one that ran smoothly for the players

.

* A ruleset is an incredible tool to help the moderator to control the game. It allows a mod to straightforwardly sets out what players should expect. Don't squander this resource either. Don't have rules for the sake of having rules. (ie, the deadline rule) Don't make players have to guess at the expectation. (ie, civility). The mod should be clearing up any misunderstandings directly and completely. Players shouldn't have to make guesses based on secondhand reports, or make inferences based on edits. You're the mod. You clear up ambiguities.

* Replacements are a tricky business, and mostly beyond the scope of this. But again, remember: however you are handling inactivity, the principle should be so that the players have a successful game. Consider your replacement policy within the context of the entire game, not in the abstract.

[EmpTyger]

vezok:
If you are looking for feedback: I think you relied too much on trying to "scrape by". This strategy might let you avoid scrutiny in a multifactional game, but only so long as the town and werewolf sides are too busy worrying about each other to focus on the third faction. But, as soon as any attention turns to the mafia, you couldn't escape. The lover mechanic makes it twice as likely you're going to attract attention, but that wasn't even the issue- there was just too much evidence linking you to Baby Spice/Kcda, so once they were revealed, you were lucky to be lynched D4 instead of D3. Compare

Honestly, the multifactional half of this game almost felt like a separate game.