Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]

[LlamaFluff]

Hi. Might take me a little to get caught up in this monster.

Who was the idiot that suggested lover claim which is the worst thing you can do in this setup?

[LlamaFluff]

Its still horrible play, ultra-skimming the first ten pages though I will save why for post game.

For now game

unvote
Vote Antihero

[LlamaFluff]

Hi. Might take me a little to get caught up in this monster.

Who was the idiot that suggested lover claim which is the worst thing you can do in this setup?

Why did you say this specifically? That is, how did you know that the loverclaim happened, but not who suggested it?

When looking for the last votecount its hard to miss the bolded "lover pairing" that also has color in it.

[LlamaFluff]

Anti did no scumhunting early, he did try and shut down townhunting early though as we see here.

Why is silavor town, again?

Quickly trying to kill off someone getting a town read on another. In these types of games scum have to be terrified of town reads since it will create a player that they cant possibly get rid of. Anti again, also not actually scumhunting here, his only vote is random. All he is interested in is shutting down others.

PO is also dead right in that anti is avoiding the elephant in the room, he seems very nervous to take sides in a three pair battle, which is something scum would again want to avoid, since they have to be careful not to bus, and cant accidently look like scum with other scum.

Eventually he actually votes Emp for calling silavor town (as per above quote). He justifies this vote over other people calling town reads because Emps was the "least justifiable", which is fairly arbitrary since town tells greatly differ from person to person. It seems more like aggression to shut down town read discussion again, by putting pressure on those who start talking about it. At the same time he is lining up for the hop to q21 already.

Soon we have the hop to q21 that is based on one line that anit brought up at one point and one post of saying how he is "sniping". Since then he has never mentioned q21, if you read anti in iso, its impossible to tell why q21 got voted past "bad first post". Anti just rides that horse to a lynch while leaving trials to Emp, umbridge, kca and kise to jump on as needed. He is taking the easy way out while opening as many doors as possible for later in the game. Infact reading what he has said, I have no idea why Anti wasnt voting Umbridge the entire day since he seemed to have much more of a problem with him.

I can get more up later. But this is a good start as to why anti is scum.

[LlamaFluff]

@ Kise: Um...other than all the reasons we call people "protown" and give townreads in every OTHER mafia game? Even before any scum are flipped in those?

You are only able to call town reads on non-interaction with dead scum ones since scum have all the reason in the world to scumhunt for other scum. If you think someone is town based on other reasons, that tell stays intact. As I stated earlier, town reads can be key for town winning these types of games, a great reason for anti-town since he spent quite a bit of day one discrediting town reads.

[LlamaFluff]

More reading... Reck/NC and PO/Esp are both town pairings... I want to put Emp/Hikari there, but something there is bugging me on a gut level.

Best two scum bets are the Anti/Ice and Ash/other llama ones, if anti/ice is a town pairing, then dram/wolf is scum. I see zero reason why people are writing them off as town apart from reck getting all loud about it. There is zero way you can get any read of wolf slot, and dram is actually fairly scummy. Im actually sitting here debating a switch to a dram vote given the position that the anti/ice wagon is sitting in, there are very few people who actually work as a partner there. Its something im going to think about, and the "player is scummy as hell but no one works well as a partner" dilemma that I hate. The fact that somehow dram didnt get lynched when he looked like obv-partner to kcda also is a tell to me. No clue how he managed to get out of that one from an iso read, so im guessing wolf-dram is using reck as a pet-townie hardcore.

Tragedy/PZ gets the wildcard slot. They both read so close to null its painful.

[LlamaFluff]

So you are trying to tear down my anti case by saying "he posted a lot so there are more scumtells?". Also you are really misrepping how much im pushing on you, im not dancing around testing the waters or any crap like that. I have been voting your slot because anti reads really scummy and you read pretty scummy. The only thing ive got hung up on is who can actually work with you given VC analysis ive been looking at a bit.

It IS possible to post a lot while looking pro-town you know, something you both really have failed to do this entire game. The fact that just about everyone has called you two VIs or scum backs this point up quite a bit. The same thing is what is makng me wonder if you really are just town since everyone seems vaugely happy with killing you two.

Personally I think you are a dick at this point, and would love to see you lynched just to make the game more enjoyable. When I replace into a setup I really dislike as a favor, I dont want to put up with crap people who sure read as bad players as well. But I respect the mod, and quite a few of the players in this game so im going to deal with it.

[LlamaFluff]

Yes I probably stepped over the line a bit, but when people are ignoring what I am putting up (which is exactly what you did by saying "its beacuse we post a lot") im going to get pretty short tempered since thats one of the things that really sets me off. VCA shows you only early on town lynches, and late/not present on scum ones.

You have been kind of a dick though as the last few days, granted it was in a short timespan, but you were.

I need to cool down a bit, but trying to just ignore my case on your partner isnt going to make me respond warmly to you in the least bit.

[LlamaFluff]

You just seem to be trying to championing the lynches, while votecounts disagree with it is what im saying.

[LlamaFluff]

You know I'd be tempted to see Anti as scum except for the fact that my strongest town read is ice.

Interestingly enough this is why I see your pair as town. PO is my strongest town read while you get the null/leaning scum one.

[LlamaFluff]

As long as we are thinking on the same line, want to wagon dram? His post where he votes vezok is almost enough to justify a lynch on him by itself.

I will be like a Giants fan and Jets fan coming together to beat up a Patriots fan, unless you are a Patriots fan then its like something else.

[LlamaFluff]

I wouldnt give more then 3:2 odds on dram being town... his iso reads as one of my top scum reads.

Just look at how he pushes on people.

Day one he really just jumps on q21 (pushing his partner instead, which on its own is a minor tell). Day two he really doesnt do much hunting around apart from a tiny case early on salv with wiggle room to move to three other wagons, that he eventually does without reasoning.

His two sentance case is picked up again on day three. Also fun is the lack of content from him which he is using (coming from Haylen) as justification to push along salv mislynch. This brings us to the amazingly scummy iso-20

First, he brings up pairings that are half scummy, half townie in such a way that he does not really want to push on them through the use of the phrase "If I have to bend myself over" (thats what he said) "to one of those lynches". Now comes the possible slip:

Tragedy's last post just threw me for a loop. I do not see the town motive at all for saying she'll self-vote if Vezok makes a decent case (barring the fact its a riskless bet, considering vezok making a decent case is statistically impossible). On the other hand, if she were mafia it means giving up any hope for her team to win.

Anyone else see dram completely ignoring the fact that Tragedy can be wolf here? He brings up the scenario where Tragedy is town, and the scenario where Tragedy is mafia. The possibility of Tragedy-wolf is myseteriously missing though. Note that he has got past the "slip" of tragedy at this point so that is discounted.

Eventually he votes one of the afformentioned town/scum pairs in what seems like an attempt to just further a wagon that he seems to chalk up to policy in a seemligly apologetic way. I think that wolf-dram thought that he was lynching town-vezok in this situation and was already trying to get out of taking heat for it by acting like it was best for the game. I am all for moving wagons to get a game going, but he was obviously conflicted on this vote about two paragraphs preceeding it. You dont go lynching null reads to get the game moving.

Today we see dram trying to line up a PO/Esp and then Tragedy/Mary lynch very early on in a no so consipicous manner, saying that neither group can live to the endgame. Since then... nothing. Dram has never presented a case on people, and spent most of his time buddying up to people and setting up lynches, just exploiting the town read that Reck has jammed town everyones throats for him.

Seriously, someone point me to a strong case dram has made this game.

There is none. However there are plenty of attempts to set up lynches (he already got the vezok one, and is moved on to Esp/PO). There also is the quote that looks like a wolf slip to me.

unvote
Vote dram

Wrath of reck in 3... 2... 1...

[LlamaFluff]

Smacking Werewolf with a rolled up newspaper is no sort of tell.

Never said that... I think its the first paragraph you are refrencing, which is where he based his vote on q21 on what the lover to q21 was doing. By putting is vote on q21 due to what his lover did, its going to destroy vote count analysis, and exaggerate the strength of the wagon on an individual slot. Pushing on one player but backing the wagon on their lover is going to make the late game very hard to deal with as we look for partners. Just about all the refrence to wolf that dram did was ask for him to be replaced.

[LlamaFluff]

@the quote about tragedy: I was referring to mafia as a general name for the scum. Specific reference would be stupid in this context, considering even in the most stupid of scenario I can't see Tragedy proposing a suicide when she's the last member of her team.

No you werent, you specifically said "If Tragedy was mafia". You never use mafia as a general term throughout the entire game. Every time its mentioned it refers to a specific faction. When you are using a term to cover all anti-town, you use the word "scum". Unless you are attempting to argue that the one time in the entire game you deviate from previous usage of a word occured in the one post where a scumslip is entirely possible, you didnt bring up her being wolf. I dont buy that the one time in 32 posts that you decide to change use of a word happened, and that more likely you ignored her being wolf because you are wolf with non-tragedy.

Also you say it again here, you cant see her proposing suicide as last member of the team, which means specifically mafia (not wolf), and you are ignoring any chance of her flipping wolf.

@voting for partners of reads: I think it's quite a stretch to say I was voting q21's partner (i think?) to muddle votecount analysis. I don't do VC analysis for one thing, and frankly I'm just voting the larger wagon in the pair.

I do VC analysis when the situation calls for it. This one needs a major pair flip and it will be very useful. Jumping on lover 1 for what lover 2 did will do nothing but rush the game and make it harder to understand from a replacements standpoint (as I am finding out) since its hard to keep track of why the votes are where they are.

[LlamaFluff]

Even if you are going to disagre with me on that, what do you think about the case on dram?

[LlamaFluff]

This is friggen rediculous... dram is just chilling while he has Reck defend him.

The scum-mafia thing is not a stretch in the least bit. Go do a search on dram and see when he uses the two terms. For the entire game he says that someone is "scum" when talking about them being anti-town, he brings up scum/scummy around 25 times throughout the game. When he uses the word "mafia", around ten times, he is refering the the mafia faction, not the wolf faction. He even brings up wolf faction a few times, each time refering to them thusly.

Him calling Tragedy either town or mafia is completely out of place with the rest of his terminology, and sure looks like a slip. Im not reading too much into it when its the ONLY time in the entire game when he changed his terminology.

*still cant believe im arguing my case with someone who isnt my lynch target*

Anyways, lining up lynches is scummy. I dont care if other people have been doing it, its scummy if they are too. Dram is doing it for a while though (vezok [even though was mafia, was not wolf so counts], then Esp (who im pretty sure is town), and tragedy (who is town if dram is wolf)). It counts as a tell, you cant argue that it gets thrown out when everyone is using it, in that case it just applies to everyone.

The vote on vezok was scummy, he was already writing off responsibility for it when he made the vote, while already getting ready to continue policy lynching the next day, and the day after that. This is not scumhunting, which is something he has not done this entire game.

Also im scum for starting a case on someone with no votes? I know Kise is town, I have a town read on the PO/Esp pair... guess how many votes the pair I think is scum is going to have?

Yes you have some sort of confirmation bias in him being town because that is what you want. If its going to take me arguing for the entire time im alive that dram is scum for you to finally lynch him when I flip town, im going to do that because no one is remotely considering this possibility.

Pairing is dram/xalxe with one of Emp/hikari and ash/evil llama.

Dram is refusing to scumhunt
Setting up policy and chain lynches
Trying to shrug off responsibility for his votes
Possibly scumsliped about alignment....

He is wolf. My balls will (sadly) remain dry.

[LlamaFluff]

Nope, that was him voting Tragedy who he was calling a member of the mafia team because he thought she slipped. Notice he goes back to calling anti-town scum in that same post.

[LlamaFluff]

Except where he, y'know, keeps referring to her as "mafia" until we flip Vezok Piraka.

Dram thought Tragedy was specifically mafia though. He said that multiple times. Show me where he used mafia as a general term in this game.

[LlamaFluff]

So reck, when I flip town will you finally realize that dram isnt obv town?

Even you just called him a lurker/non-contributor. After almost 70 pages having a pair with zero contribution isnt a tell?

You are also now saying "trying to get any other lynch" when I come in an immediately take the path of GREATEST resistance? I know how people think enough to know I was going to get blasted for saying that dram is scum, but he is, so its something im going to say. And auto-lynch before his partner catches up? When did I say "we should auto-lynch dram"? Why doesnt that make you scum for wanting to lynch me before Xalxe catches up?

Reck needs to get over the read he has had since early in the game. They can be hard to break, but he needs to break it, and is not really willing to even try to.

[LlamaFluff]

So I take that as a "no I wont look at dram when I flip town"

[LlamaFluff]

I suppose it won't hurt.
But you're not gonna flip town.
so lol

Well someone needs to hold you to this since its coming.

[LlamaFluff]

Reading from the end, why would he assume that the list of lovers was the result of a loverclaim, rather than the natural result of normal bandwagon-to-claims and deductions which developed out over the course of the past 5 days?

Because that would have taken four of five people to be ran up to L-1 and then backed off, which we both know is very unlikely to occur when everyones going to claim lover. Also I have been in a lover game before and people massclaimed basically right out of the gate.

[LlamaFluff]

So I did some reasearch.

Its dram/xalxe and ash/evil llama

You know with all of their posts, combined, for the entire game, they never address eachother. We have one line in one post where dram calls ash prob-town. We also have one line from ash that is disagreing with drams read on Kise. That is it, for the ENTIRE game.

Its these two pairs. End of story. They work perfectly on interactions, on reads, on votecounts.

[LlamaFluff]

Now thats a reaction that backs up my theory, interestingly enough even those quotes I missed show you are probably scum with him

unvote
Vote Ash

[LlamaFluff]

Sure it does.

If no one will lynch the pair who is most likely scum, going for the one that looks like a likely partner pick, and a good second pick regardless is best.

<Insert dram quote> doesnt come from town.

I see zero reason to think he is town, all you are doing is saying "yes he is lurking, not making cases etc, but he is town". He is doing multiple scummy things, and has what I still say is a slip, so yes he is scum.

Im going to love watching you have to finally have to realize he is scum once I flip.

[LlamaFluff]

So what happens if Ash flips town?

Im going to end up questioning dram-scum a bit since it would leave basically just emp as the other half of that pair and that isnt a beautiful fit, if dram is scum its with ash/emp/you, and the last two are hard to fit due to conflicting actions or reads. Tragedy, PO and Ice are out as dram partners.

[LlamaFluff]

How did "OMG, Anti is scumzz" completely fall out of the picture for you so suddenly, Llama?

Because of Kise being completely insistant that you arent in the lover QT mainly. Grey helps the read a little at this point as well.

[LlamaFluff]

because im willing to listen to my lover, although reading the topic closer I mis-read are as arent, so he does think they are scum. I just dont think they are super likely scum due to the reaction Ice had earlier.

[LlamaFluff]

FLUFF why aren't you wagoning Xalxe?

Because dram was scummier of the two. Im not going to push a case on dram while voting his lover. If people want to back there I will be there in an instant.

[LlamaFluff]

@PZ - This is the dram case. No scumhunting, constant lurking, trying to shed responsability for lynches prematurely, trying to somewhat policy lynch, and possible wolf-slip

Xalxe is just lurking

I wouldnt give more then 3:2 odds on dram being town... his iso reads as one of my top scum reads.

Just look at how he pushes on people.

Day one he really just jumps on q21 (pushing his partner instead, which on its own is a minor tell). Day two he really doesnt do much hunting around apart from a tiny case early on salv with wiggle room to move to three other wagons, that he eventually does without reasoning.

His two sentance case is picked up again on day three. Also fun is the lack of content from him which he is using (coming from Haylen) as justification to push along salv mislynch. This brings us to the amazingly scummy iso-20

First, he brings up pairings that are half scummy, half townie in such a way that he does not really want to push on them through the use of the phrase "If I have to bend myself over" (thats what he said) "to one of those lynches". Now comes the possible slip:

Tragedy's last post just threw me for a loop. I do not see the town motive at all for saying she'll self-vote if Vezok makes a decent case (barring the fact its a riskless bet, considering vezok making a decent case is statistically impossible). On the other hand, if she were mafia it means giving up any hope for her team to win.

Anyone else see dram completely ignoring the fact that Tragedy can be wolf here? He brings up the scenario where Tragedy is town, and the scenario where Tragedy is mafia. The possibility of Tragedy-wolf is myseteriously missing though. Note that he has got past the "slip" of tragedy at this point so that is discounted.

Eventually he votes one of the afformentioned town/scum pairs in what seems like an attempt to just further a wagon that he seems to chalk up to policy in a seemligly apologetic way. I think that wolf-dram thought that he was lynching town-vezok in this situation and was already trying to get out of taking heat for it by acting like it was best for the game. I am all for moving wagons to get a game going, but he was obviously conflicted on this vote about two paragraphs preceeding it. You dont go lynching null reads to get the game moving.

Today we see dram trying to line up a PO/Esp and then Tragedy/Mary lynch very early on in a no so consipicous manner, saying that neither group can live to the endgame. Since then... nothing. Dram has never presented a case on people, and spent most of his time buddying up to people and setting up lynches, just exploiting the town read that Reck has jammed town everyones throats for him.

Seriously, someone point me to a strong case dram has made this game.

There is none. However there are plenty of attempts to set up lynches (he already got the vezok one, and is moved on to Esp/PO). There also is the quote that looks like a wolf slip to me.

unvote
Vote dram

Wrath of reck in 3... 2... 1...

[LlamaFluff]

In comes Llama with tunnelvision full steam ahead, which Kise does not fall into.

Kise is playing as town, not as a suck-up to his lover.

Um...yeah, because llama just falls into Kise's new vision instead.

Oh belive me, I would vig the dram pair in half a second if I was able to. That slot reads scum up and down, the only defense against it has been reck saying "thats how dram plays town". No one else has really been able to give a reason that they are town, and just brush it off as me having to be scum to make that push, which just creates a cyclical feed of me thinking im right, which I am, and I will gloat if I am.

If my top pick wont work, I will fall into voting my lovers pick without much of a fight, especially when they are in a shortlist for scummy on their own, and work perfectly as a partner to my pick.

Also I refuse to vote the PO/Esp slot. I think its town, if we get them lynched as town, we are just screwed the next day which means its lylo before people even start to consider dram-scum seriously which im not going to let happen. If I vote the PO/Esp slot, feel free to lynch me on site. I will not vote them. Period. Im trying to convince Kise in the QT to do the same.

Dram needs lynching, but if people are going to not look at that until I am dead, or until we get a partner flip, im going to go ahead and make that happen.

@All non-reck players - What reasoning do you have for dram town?

[LlamaFluff]

So if Esp flips town you will vote dram?

[LlamaFluff]

Also I refuse to vote the PO/Esp slot. I think its town, if we get them lynched as town, we are just screwed the next day which means its lylo before people even start to consider dram-scum seriously which im not going to let happen.

If we're both town, they knock us 1-2, and STILL have one free mislynch before lylo.

I dont trust these guys to make the right lynch though in that scenario. They probably will go for the PZ/Tragedy mislynch (who is dram is scum, are town) rope one of reck team along and thats game. I want to hammer the points home early so they actually get picked up on. I already know there is zero chance of us living unless we get a one-two scum lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

If that'd happen, I'm going to 'scum-hunt' Dram when I see him again. >_>..

scumhunt him with me now?

[LlamaFluff]

Llamafluff is scummy as shit. He refuses to join the main wagons of the day and is basically hopping around from useless wagon to useless wagon. He needs to vote Kise or Espeonage.

Well im not voting my lover, and im not voting who I think is town. I am going to try and form a wagon on someone who I actually think is scum instead of self-preservation vote someone I think is town that would lead to my mislynch next.

So still, im not going to vote Esp/PO. If im wrong, im wrong, but im pretty sure im right.

[LlamaFluff]

Still not hammering someone I think is town. Was not kidding when I said that.

[LlamaFluff]

dram is the only other person I'd rather lynch right now, and I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen today.

Lets try. What harm can that possibly do? We both will be there, if we convince our lovers to switch thats a decent sized wagon that cant be ignored.

@Esp - I think I can still get the lynch to go elsewhere, so im going to try and do so. I dont lynch people that I think are town, I am not going to lynch you.

[LlamaFluff]

I DONT WANT TO LYNCH THAT PAIR.

Yes im sure this is frustrating to everyone else but I dont want to do something that I think is just going to get us snap lynched.

[LlamaFluff]

LlamaF:
What are the reasons you think PO/Espeonage town?

Because PO reads as amazingly strong town. Esp doesnt in the least bit, but thats the problem with lover games. Lynchbait partners can doom a pair, and im not going back on my town read here just becaue Esp reads as scummy. Also Esp really only works as partner to Ice/Anti which recieves a similar town/scum pairing read. So im going after the person I think is scum today, since if Esp IS scum and we get lynched today only to have him lynched tomorrow, town is still fine to mop up the last pair. I would rather lynch who I think is scum though.

unvote
Vote Dram

Please lets lynch him today people. He lurks, he doesnt make cases, there is the slip, his old partner lurks, his new partner avoids the game while posting on the site elsewhere, WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED.

[LlamaFluff]

BUT NO GUYS DRAM LURKING IS WAY WORSE THAN EVERYONE ELSE LURKING/FLAKING ESPECIALLY WHEN HE DOES THIS EVERY GAME

It STILL is scummy.

Im tired as hell of hearing the "they always do it" as an excuse to give people passes on playing scummy, or lurking, or any of that crap. I would rather just keep lynching for this stuff to get the point across that they need to change how they play for the enjoyment of all other player.

Dram is NOT making cases, he IS lurking, he DOES need to be lynched. Even if you cut out the slip which I still say has to be one since its the only point in the ENTIRE game his terminology changed, he reads as scum. Im done repeting it, im done giving passes for this type of play. Both him and his revolving door lover need lynching.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, dram's lurking is NO WORSE than anyone else's. In fact, it's better than quite a few people in this game.

I realize lots of people are lurking in this game, so lets call all of them scummy for lurking.

OH SNAP NOW DRAM AND HIS LOVER ARE SCUMMY!

It does apply to everyone and I am ready at this point of playing to throw wagons on players who do chronically lurk. I see it happen way to many times usually preceeding a flake. Site meta really needs to start punishing the crap out of it in all honesty which people refuse to do.

Emp hit the hammer on the head regarding dram. When you throw in the "everyone who lurks is scum" its another great reason to lynch his slot because his lover has zero content, lurks and ALSO refuses to make cases. Seriously people, how to TWO people who are LOVERS make it this far without being brutally lynched without having other scum not letting them/ignoring them? Do you really think that if dram was town, with FOUR other scum this would go unmentioned?

Town case on Esp later. Have an assignment to get on and a few other things to get to now.

I love how we still dont have a case.

[LlamaFluff]

I am all for a Xalxe lynch FTR. He's posting all over the damn place EXCEPT HERE HMM.

Xalxe is dram partner, join me.

[LlamaFluff]

Told you guys PO was town, my town reads are usually solid.

Vote dram

back to what we should have been doing forever.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
Vote llamarable

Cant really see a pair without this pair in it at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

Im an engineer too and I know not to blindly trust someone elses analysis unless I can reach the same conclusion. Im all for town reads, but trusting a town reads town read is ultra dangerous since a failed town read is more dangerous then a failed scum read.

For you, specifically, why is dram town?

[LlamaFluff]

lol

Yeah im sticking with my ash/llamarble pair lynch. I see them as the partner to dram/fate or ice/anti (even can work with emp/hikari).

[LlamaFluff]

QT if you want to discuss this more, but when ash/llama is in my top two (close to three) groups for scum which means, IM VOTING THERE. Is Ice/anti a horrible lynch? No. Is it the best lynch? Also no.

[LlamaFluff]

Reck - Emp is right, its annoying as hell to read someone as scum and just be met with "oh meta/gut/irl says he is town" when if it was anyone else, you would probably be all ready to lynch them right there. You also need to realize that a large ammount of what you are saying about him is due to this disagreement of reads.

Emp - Reck just reads as probably town to me. I wouldnt be shocked beyond reason with a scum flip, but I dont see it happening. He was a little below the PO/Esp pairing on reads.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
Vote Grey

I swear if dram/fate is the team im going to lore this over everyone blindly calling him town for life. Done with this at this point though.

[LlamaFluff]

Thats kinda cool... the scumlist from ash is almost the exact inverse of who has been attacking him.

@Ash - How does Fate replacing in and attacking your "top town read" make you more sure then before that he is town? Also you trusted Recks read of dram which put dram as MORE TOWN then reck... so you trusted your somewhat scummier read of someone being town, to put them more town as the player... I keep typing it and it doesnt make sense.

@Kise - Can we please move back to killing ash/llama? I seriously see no way they are town, and there is only two remotely realistic parings they arent a part of as opposed to ice/anti who are missing from a few key possible pairings.

[LlamaFluff]

If player A (Reck), whom I think is town and know is good, gives a townread on player B (Dram), I take their perspective into strong consideration. Especially in a case like this. I think Reck is more town than Dram, but they're likely both town and I'll never vote either of them unless it's just them, Grey, and us left so their order doesn't matter at this juncture.

*bzzzzt* this doesnt work

Player A says player B is town
Ash says he trust the read of player B by player A, and thats where the entire read of player B is coming from
Ash then says player B is MORE TOWN then player A.
Player B2 comes in and attacks player C (strongest town read).
This makes player B2 EVEN MORE TOWN then he used to be.

All this logic fails.

I could buy a C/A/B decending list, but this makes no sense.

Also its amazingly convinent that your list has manifested itself to be the people throughout the entire game have called you town and defended you as town, and the people who have called you scum as scum. Buddying busted, screw this im back on (off?) the wagon. FATE COME IN AND SEE THIS.

unvote
Vote Ash

[LlamaFluff]

Fate that was me calling llamarble on quite a few errors defending his partner who I was attacking last page.

I really see no way llama/ash arent part of the pairing at this point. Only one that it could possibly be if they are town is ice/anti/emp/hikari, and thats not looking too likely. Its them, I was convinced by constant "lol no you are wrong" in the QT, but enough is enough at this point. They need lynching and they need it ASAP.

[LlamaFluff]

Yes, he always vote hops from his #1 scum pick to a #2 to the largest wagon while buddying his #1 scum pick. Of course! It's just his posting style. Well why didn't I see that immediately?

Yeah that wasnt buddying... that was a mini-shot at Kise who in every post in the QT is him saying my reads are wrong and I need to vote whoever he is voting. Buddying would have been directly agreeing with Fate. I still would be very far from shocked if dram/Fate is scum in this game, and hold ash/llama/ice/anti and ash/llama/dram/fate around the same odds as being the pairing, hence me really wanting the ash/llama lynch since it gives the needed breathing room.

[LlamaFluff]

Fate/LlamaF:
How does a GreyIce/Ashblade werewolf team makes sense for the play of D6? I'm still not seeing it.

Along the lines of how ash is scummy, and has grey as a strong-ish town read, while its recpiricated by grey and anti. They are playing a game where neither of them really talk about eachother much, but both have these town reads on eachother that arent really backed up by much. Why llama/ash go before grey/anti is a feeling I have that its llama/ash/dram/fate. If its those four, the ice/grey lynch likely ends in a mislynch of me and Kise tomorrow. That is why I dont know why people who want Ice dead arent backing me up, since unless its ice/anti + Emp/Hikari (since I dont think ice/anti/PZ/tragedy is too likely), ash/llama is the lynch. Lets do it already

@Ice - You realize what you are going off on is the exact same thing that I delt with the entire game regarding dram.

[LlamaFluff]

Actually, as I said, Fate/dram and ice/anti are about on equal ground of who I think is scum with ash/llama.

The way Fate came in though, I just immediately got a massive paranoia wave of it being Fate/dram/ash/llama. I also would be willing to hedge bets on exactly one of dram/fate and ice/anti to be scum.

[LlamaFluff]

If ash/llama flips town I dont know what the hell to think, although I doubt im going to have to consider that. I still think that its one of you/anti and dram/fate, not both. I really cant see it being both of you.

[LlamaFluff]

More likely PZ/tragedy. I dont see Emp/Hikari working with anti/ice or fate/dram. If ash/llama is town I actually see emp/hikari as more likely then not town without some hardcore and unnecessary bussing going on here.

[LlamaFluff]

Why does everyone have such a problem reading Fate? :igmeoy:

Because Fate always plays very strong and aggressive, which makes it hard to distinguish town and scum quickly. Its a lot like lurkers to me, where you need more information from other alignments to solidify anything past gut. The biggest thing creaping me out about Fate is he attacked EXACTLY who I would have in his position if it was a dram/fate/ash/llama pairing, which makes me feel even worse with the dram-scum read. I have caught scum before by them playing a few positions exactly as I would have played it as scum more then anything else.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
vote llamarble

Llamarable trying to make pairings to pit everyone against eachother as duos is amazingly funny.

[LlamaFluff]

This game continues to piss me off since its obvious that the lynch is ash/llama. What happened to about five pages ago where everyone was like "thats a great point on ash" and then ash never responded, and then everyone forgot. I dont know what more I can say at this point except to just sit here in protest not voting to lynch the pair that really only has about a 50-50 shot of being scum.

[LlamaFluff]

You should also go more in-depth about how that translates to Hiraki being my buddy when he was early on my wagon, and Emp is still on my wagon. Them combined with LF was enough to put you away, but it's not happening. LF thinks this is too risky apparently..

Is it bad? No, it would be my second/third choice as I said. I just am not going to vote my second pick, when so few people actually WORK with my second pick. I dont like being risky too much when the game gets tight, even when the game is not tight im not a huge fan of taking unnecessary risks

[LlamaFluff]

@Ash - How does Fate replacing in and attacking your "top town read" make you more sure then before that he is town? Also you trusted Recks read of dram which put dram as MORE TOWN then reck... so you trusted your somewhat scummier read of someone being town, to put them more town as the player... I keep typing it and it doesnt make sense.

Here you go Ash. Your partner already (failed) to explain the read. Batter number two up!

[LlamaFluff]

TAKE A SIDE. MAKE YOUR STAND. LYNCH ME OR LYNCH KISE. NO OTHER OPTIONS

No.

Im not lynching suboptimally. Ash/Llama are scum, we lynch them. They are simply playing a *lurk lurk lurk* game at this point trying to just get a lynch without having anything to do with it.

I already reposted a point on Ash that he hasnt responded to in over a week at this point. Lurk lurk lurk scum scum scum

[LlamaFluff]

JUST FRIGGIN CLAIM ALREADY AND WE CAN END THIS THING MY GOD

Town Lover. Popcorn to you.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
vote ice

deadline and whatnot, apathy etc

PZ made the wierd vote there given that I have been the one trying to make dram dead for a large portion of the game. ash/llama is still about a 100x better lynch then this one.

[LlamaFluff]

They do nothing. Ash is adjusting his scumreads so those who think he is town are townreads. Best example is how reck saying dram is town somehow makes dram more town then reck is, a point that he still never has responded to despite me bringing it up twice now.

They work with just about everyone I see as possible scum, so I want them dead first, then we can lynch ice since im not 100% sold on them being the buddy to ash/llama since there are three workable pairings there. ash/llama flip scum we just go straight down the line to a simple win.

[LlamaFluff]

Except for the two weeks I was voting him and no one wanted to join me?

ash/llama
dram/fate
ani/ice
emp/hikari

That order, two and three are sorta interchangable, although its nearly for sure one of them.

[LlamaFluff]

I played shitty, but dram was still very obviously scum that game (along with PO town, and Ice town, and PZ town). I just knew that no one would listen to me unless I lynched his partner first. Also completely called Fate scum in QT from his first post which was horribad. Another one of those things though that no one would listen to due to all the yelling, which I am coming closer and closer to policy lynching due to the amount of damage they do.

[LlamaFluff]

Actually I was waivering until that post. That just brought it back to obvious.

Also this is the second worst open setup in existance, which probably added to me not wanting to play much. I actually would prefer to play with a cult then play in this setup again.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, the worst was?

Polygamist is the worst. Lovers are not a role that works well when everyone is one.

[LlamaFluff]

I played shitty, but dram was still very obviously scum that game (along with PO town, and Ice town, and PZ town). I just knew that no one would listen to me unless I lynched his partner first. Also completely called Fate scum in QT from his first post which was horribad. Another one of those things though that no one would listen to due to all the yelling, which I am coming closer and closer to policy lynching due to the amount of damage they do.

My lord, make the damn case instead of sitting there and poking obvtown marble and obvtown ashblade.

Well I tried at first, but everyone shot it down so I went looking for the partner. When just about everyone, including your lover, shuts down your case you look for other things. Also apathy, I shouldnt have replaced into this game.

Might make my MD post about why rage posting is amazingly anti-town and should be policy lynched after this game. Fun fact, I read maybe 10% of posts that people post in caps or "rage" style.

[LlamaFluff]

Well no one else worked. You were town, PZ was town by default of not working with anyone, Emp was hard to pair with anyone remaining save just you, Reck was probably town. That pair worked perfectly with dram-scum, which was why I was refusing to compramise on it, I was intentionally lynching who I thought was scum with the person no one would lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

Also, for the record, why did you think a loverclaim bad in this setup?

It allows for more natural attacks and defenses. In this game, whether you like it or not knowing whos partnered to who will create bias in the read of the second person. A perfect example of how that could have changed the game is the reck/NC slot. If people were willing to scrutinize NC more, it could have changed the direction of the early game instead of simply giving the player a pass.

Having nothing be off limits allows for town to scumhunt without the bias an misconceptions that this type of game will naturally create. Any time that those things come into play, scum who know what to do can just feed off it indefinantly and protect/push of people that would not normally be up. This is one of those odd situations (like polygamist, just less so) where the less information the town knows, the better.

Also how did NO ONE go back and do vote count analysis? Seriously?

Im thinking next game I get into with "rage posting" I am going to push for a policy lynch. Its really got to such a point where its destroying the fun of the game while hurting the town. People who do it (Im looking at you Fate) need to realize it makes the game miserable for a majority of the people, and eventually I know I just end up not reading anything you post.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote counts?

End of day at least. Those pointed to at least one, probably two of reck/dram/PZ.

[LlamaFluff]

Re raging:
Raging is essentially an extreme form of tunneling, but with the added detriment of hindering the town's main weapon: the ability to discuss. But I think if you're looking to policy lynch, stick with the basics: Liars and lurkers, in that order. Would've worked this game.

I already have a list of policy lynches I somewhat adhere to, mostly chronic anti-town and flakers.

LlamaF:
But, let's say Nero does get scrutinized, gets run up, and claims his lover- then it devolves into the claimed scenario. Only, the lack of information makes it easier for antitowns to prevent themselves from being run up in the first place. The problem wasn't that people weren't scrutizing Nero enough it's that they weren't scrutinizing *Reckoner* enough. Even without antitown interference, it's logistically a lot harder to track 22 than it is to track 11.

It also allows for scum to defend eachother easier. Lets say we never claimed and got later in the game without it and decided to run up NC, we actually are going to get pressure on that spot because scum OR town cant just say "pfft oh he is Reck partner so he is town". We always are going to have bias against people, you start forming them the instant you read a post, and no one can legitimately tell you that a couple posts from everyone into the game you have SOME sort of guess on what someone is that is more then the antitown/town equation.

I just think lover games with the claim give scum a new level of being able to defend, attack and manipulate. How much did you hear wolf mentioned in this game? How much did he post? Now who was his partner and what was the general when someone called him scum? Same with NC. The more information in this setup, the easier it is for scum to attack town, defend eachother and just control the game.

Lack of pairings may make it initally harder, but there will be more late in the game for town to look at I believe. Not sure we ever have had on of these games not degrade into massclaim though so there isnt anything to base it off.